Constant Texting Is Not a Sign They Like You ft. Sabrina Zohar

0:08Welcome back. I am beyond excited because I get to be with you in person. I know. I love it. This is so great. And I'm so excited because you have a new book coming out. Why am I like this? Why am I like this? Okay, so speaking of your book, you started the book with a story that when I was reading it, it was really, it was actually really interesting. intense and so you basically sent this 22 year old sabrina i was like 24 okay 24 so 20 we take us back to 24 year old sabrina you sent 173 and i had to read it again i was like is this an exaggeration is this true like is she be is this sarcasm you sent 173 texts to a guy that you were seeing and had a full who was basically essentially rejecting you and you had a full-blown meltdown and um you know when I was reading it it was just I don't know I just it was so well it was of course highly entertaining because you're like here's the train wreck that I was and you know you're kind of like reading this kind of train wreck happening but I don't know I also felt so sad because I think that um I don't think I've ever sent 173 texts before I'm not gonna lie however I have like that that anxiety that you were feeling and just like um I related to that and I think that there's a lot of people who do things like this so will you just take us through this story because I think it's an important one I would love I wish I could lie to you and be like oh, I've only done that once.

1:48I have not done that once. I tried to find the messages and thank God my iPhone did not save a lot of these other texts. I was manic. I remember doing that from even when I was like 16, 17, 18, when texting started to become more like prevalent in our society. And like once I got an iPhone when I was in college, because I saw it as like, I need safety. I need you to tell me I will be okay. And so Teddy and I were dating for like two months. It was a very It wasn't anything serious. Truth be told, I did not even really like this guy that much. But I was not in a place mentally where I could challenge that thought.

2:26I was just in this, I need to be safe. I need to have somebody like me. Please pick me. And when I found out that this other girl that I knew was also dating him, this thing, this light bulb went off in my head of like, I have to win. I have to be the one that he picks. It cannot be her. And she was beautiful and she was everything, right? All these things and my insecurities were just rearing their ugly head because she was tall and blonde and thin and beautiful and great career. And I felt like a shell of a human of myself. And when he just told me, hey, this isn't going to work, I think the average person, you can be bummed, you can be sad.

2:58You might maybe send a few texts being like, hey, are you sure? Can we talk about this? Maybe the person says no. You call your friends, you deal with it. I didn't have anybody I could turn to. I genuinely didn't. I had my family telling me I was too much and to chill out, and that never works when you have a lot of anxiety. And I was stuck in my own head. And so my thought process, like I'll never forget just literally hitting the wall and feeling like someone pushed me up against it and like I lost all of my breath. And I just kept texting and texting and texting and texting because I genuinely believed on the other side of the next message, that was gonna be the one.

3:32That was gonna be the one thing I'm gonna say that'll get this person back. And as we know, the spoiler alert is like it didn't. It never does. And when we were done, by the time I was done and I woke up in the morning, this hangover, realizing what I had just done and kept texting him. The irony is we didn't speak after that. He never answered. Two years later, two or three years later, we rematched again on an app. Wow. No way. Yeah. And we went out to dinner and we talked, like, we just briefly talked about it. He didn't even clock it. He didn't really even think anything of it. He's like, I've had women do that to me before.

4:05And I'll never forget. And he was like, you know, would you be open to dating again? And I was like, oh, I'm not interested in you at all. I was like, I think you're lovely. You're so nice. That's wild. Wait, how many years had passed? About two or three. Something bad. And he was open to dating again. He was open. I think that was his code word of like, we should be intimate again. Like, let's be physical. That was really fun. I just had no desire. I wasn't interested in him. And really, all of that is to say is that the reason I started the book with that story was because I wanted to, one, meet people where they're at, right?

4:34Like, there's no shame in the way that we used to behave, but I wanted to learn from it. But two, to really emphasize, it had nothing to do with him. Yeah. Right? You and I off-camera have spoken so extensively about the narratives and the story that we create and how we believe that, how we genuinely can see our lives through that. And for him, he was just another representation of, I'm going to be abandoned and left. And I couldn't sit with that because what did that mean about me? Right. Well, you know, there's something else about the story that really struck me, which was that you had said, you know, you'd been sleeping together, but also watching movies together.

5:10So obviously having sleepovers, I'm assuming. And yet it's still casual. And so and then so so whereas, you know, the intense meltdown, the 173 texts might be considered extreme. I don't think that having anxiety about being rejected by someone who you've been regularly having sleepovers with and watching movies with and like bonding that way. I don't think that that is extreme. I don't understand how people don't have anxiety about that. And I think that that's one of the things that I think that's a very important thing to hone in on, which is that why why have we. As a society, why do we put the the pressure on ourselves to not get emotionally involved and connected and attached to someone who we are regularly sleeping with and do.

6:14I'm sorry, but like laying in bed and watching a movie together, to me, that's like relationship status. Very intimate. It's very intimate. It's actually very intimate. We would cook together. Yeah. We would do stuff. Like I would go to his house after work. I'd bring my dog because the daycare was right by his house. I would just hang out. Right. And we would be there all night. Sometimes I'd sleep over. Sometimes I'd go home. Right. The dog. That's a relationship. Essentially. Right. But no, but it really, truly is. It's a relationship. And at 24, I didn't understand that. Right. Well, also, we're not asking for it.

6:44We're not talking about expectations. But people do this thing. They play this boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, whatever, play house. And yet it's considered, how is that casual? Situationships are a scam. Because that's what a situationship is, is one person is benefiting from the fact that the other person's not speaking up. And then the other person that's not speaking up is probably terrified of saying anything because they know what the answer will be. We don't want to be too much. I don't want to ask for too much. Well, all that's, you're self-abandoning, right? You turn into me and you turn into one situation after another.

7:15Now, I think casual sex is a scam because I don't think anybody can genuinely just go around and sleep with all these people one after another and feel nothing. Yeah. Especially as a woman. But I will say I can hold two conflicting thoughts. Like when I met my current partner, the reason that I was okay to walk away going, if there's nothing here is because I was knowing, entering in, being the adult to say, I have needs. your girl had not gotten laid in months I really just wanted physical touch and I figured in my head if this doesn't work out that's okay but if you don't have that mentality and here's the other side of it I was very clear with Ryan this isn't going to become a thing because I don't want to just become the person that you call it 11 o 'clock at night you up you want to hang out because I felt hollow it feels like you're just you're missing more especially when you are intentional about wanting a relationship but I think that there's a time and a place but you have to be honest with yourself about that.

8:09And I think that's what's missing is most of the people that are engaging in the casual sex and we hook up and we hang out and we do, we go on trips and we do all these things are hoping it's just going to magically turn into that without having the conversation as opposed to being an adult and saying, no, no, no, this is exactly what it is. And I'm making a choice to engage with it or not. But I'm with you. I don't think it's, I don't think it's for most people. I also think it's because we don't talk about this. We're not, we're not taught this in school. We're not, we don't talk about what really happens when you become, I mean, we talk about practicing safe sex when you become sexually active, but we don't talk about safe sex within the context of how do you actually protect your heart and, and your, and your mental health and your wellbeing, and how can we actually have conversations about this so that you're not falling into something that feels like a relationship.

9:03And then, and then later shaming yourself for getting attached. It's like, in fact, I would, I would argue that the person who does not get attached when you're spending that kind of quality time with someone, I think they're the ones who actually have a problem. The dis, I couldn't agree more. The reason that my behavior was such a problem, to your point, it wasn't because I had the emotional reaction. That's human. It's so normal to be like, I really liked this person. I thought this maybe was going somewhere. We then have the conflation of like, I'm mad at myself. I should have spoken up. I didn't say anything.

9:37Right. I think where the line starts to get blurred is like that I expected him to make me feel better. And that's the part, like the person that's ending it with me, isn't then going to reassure me and let me know that everything's going to be okay. But also the fact that you thought it was the end of the world. End of the world. Right. That's where the pinch didn't match the ouch. It was this extreme reaction to something that sure. Right. I had every right to be upset and that is valid. And I think that's where the line starts to get crossed is because we see it especially with a lot of content like just get over it just move on you'll be fine meet someone else it didn't happen for a reason but we don't actually give any tools of like well how do you actually be okay with this what can you do about it and it's not about shaming and blaming yourself and being like it's my anxious attachment yeah no that also just means you're a human who liked someone and it didn't work out but does the pinch match the ouch yeah this episode is sponsored by aria lately everyone i know is too busy to make time for their partner.

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11:58Well, also, I mean, so... Would you say that the real meaning behind it was the fact that he was seeing someone else who you believed to be better than you? I saw it as my dad. Yeah. He was the one of, no, no, no, she can't get the attention. I have to get it. Because that's why it would be one thing if three years later we reconnected and now we're married with six kids, right? And then you're like, wow, okay, that was a real connection. Yeah. But rarely every guy that I would have these immense reactions to were just replications of what I learned growing up. Like, be big, get someone's attention.

12:29I even told my sister when we were kids, my mom told me this the other day, I turned to my sister and I said, just scream louder, maybe dad will hear you. That was my perception of like, you just have to get his attention. And so I then in my adult life subconsciously did everything I could. Sleep with them quick, be as sexy and nonchalant and aloof and whatever, I'm just living my own life type of mentality. All the while, I'm crying in bed. I'm miserable. I'm not getting my needs met because I was constantly hoping that if I'm low pressure, this person's going to choose me. And we know that that is not the recipe for a healthy relationship.

13:02No, but it's very much the messaging that young girls and women get. Be a good girl. Yeah, be a good girl or just don't make any waves and then you're going to be chosen. Because it's always the narrative of, well, just don't be too much. Yeah. And don't love too much and don't like too much and don't need too much. the other side of the coin is like but are you is enough for you yeah right like you don't want to be too much to this person but if i'm too much then go find less yeah now again we the the that's where i think the balancing of holding the conflicting thoughts is important because i think a lot of people might hear this and be like oh so i have every right to text 173 times right no you don't no it's not appropriate to outsource your regulation to somebody who is trying to walk away from you yeah that's where we have to say i'm allowed to feel this it's valid that I feel this, but then what am I going to do with this now?

13:49It's also a little violating. It's violating boundaries. 100%. Yeah. I did not respect. I went to his house to drop off pans that I thought because he could use it for his biscotti. Oh yeah. That was, that was, which is appropriate. Went out for you. Yeah. But I genuinely thought like, let me just do more. Let me give more of what he already doesn't want so that maybe he'll pick me finally. Which is such an, which is so interesting because that's, and we were talking about this earlier today um that's not the key to a man's heart is just giving more and and abandoning yourself that's actually that's not it's actually knowing what you're worth and appreciating him and you know and and that's about it you know it's like it's not it's not giving more when you're being rejected i think that sometimes that works for a woman sometimes but i i just don't think like if you know if she feels like she's not being given to or whatever but it's just it's never the key to a man's heart.

14:42I'm curious, how did you, how long did it take to recover from that? The recovery, unfortunately, didn't happen. So that happened when I was, what, 24? I didn't start therapy until I was 28. So I kept doing that. I kept replicating the same patterns over and over again. Like you would date someone, they would reject you, and then you would go bananas. I had been doing that since I was 19. I remember even this guy, it was a same situation, It was a bartender, right? Oh, yeah, because that's... At 19 years old, he was like a 36-year-old bartender. Because that's gonna help me. At Bar Matchless in Brooklyn.

15:17And it was my friend had been sleeping with him, and he didn't want anything from her, but then he started flirting with me. And so, in my head, the light bulb went off of like, okay, he wants me. And we were supposed to go out for dinner or something like that. And he canceled right before. I texted him like 40 times. This is why if you are close to middle age, or middle age, you do not date teenagers or people before their prefrontal cortex is developed because you are actually taking advantage of them because they don't know how they don't they don't there's no rational thinking none i there was no regulation there's no rational and also i hate to be that person that's like we didn't have the internet like i didn't have yeah what we have now to be able to go to somebody like us to be like oh all right julian told me that i shouldn't do it you're right so i'm just left to my own devices i'm taking shitty advice from my friends people that and you're so embarrassed that you want to say anything because part of you knows that this is not a good look but you don't know what to do and i remember just texting him non-stop and bet and like never seeing this guy again it started way before teddy he was just another manifestation i would go on two or three dates a day just to fill up my time anybody that chooses me i had to the point where i remember seeing this like smoking babe we went on it we met in an app within 30 minutes we were hooking up and then we dated for like you know three weeks and then i got the i'm not ready for a relationship card because I genuinely believed all I need is for them to be physically attracted to me, and then they'll pick me.

16:40Yeah. That never worked out because even now, right, when my partner and I slept together on the first date, I left and I set a very clear boundary of, like, do not waste my time. Don't call me if this is a casual thing. You're going to build something with me, then build it. If not, don't waste it. So when was the change for you where you started to actually respect yourself and respect your boundaries? and was it, did you have like a couple of experiences where it was like better but not quite there kind of thing? Yeah. When I lived in New York, it was one after another that was bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

17:15And then when I moved to California, I was like, I'm going to change the way I do things. And so there was like one monumental guy, this guy from Utah, and he was just everything I ever could have wanted. And I briefly had mentioned now he's married to like a 22 year old. And it's like, the world keeps revolving. And he was the one I remember coming home from that whole trip, like, because we didn't live next to each other, we were doing long distance, and it was such whiplash. One minute he was all over me, and then the next it was, what are you trying to get from me? Get away from me. And you're like, I just wanted to cuddle with you.

17:42I don't know what the problem is. And I remember setting the boundary, and when he called me, I didn't answer. I was just like, nope, I'm not doing this. I needed a minute to process. And then we spoke the next day, and he was like, I miss you, and I challenged it, and I was like, what do you miss? And then all of a sudden, and he goes, you know what, I actually realize I'm not ready. and I said okay well thanks so much and I hung up that was so terrifying for me because in my head I was like no no fight try to get him back try to do that and I just let it be yeah and then the next guy it started to get quicker and quicker and quicker because I just realized in my moment in those moments this isn't getting me anywhere right when the guy texts you up at 9 a.m and be I'm like yeah what's up you want to come over and I was like dude I'm on my way to work like no I have things to do yeah do you want to make a plan and then you wouldn't hear from them and then you You get a sexy photo at six o 'clock at night being like, what are you doing tonight?

18:28Once I realized this wasn't getting me to where I wanted, I started getting closer and closer to what it was that I did want. Because you have to, I think what people forget is you have to learn to grieve. When you do this work, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're just going to meet the right person. And then every, you went off into the sunset, you have to be okay with the fact that now you're going to lose people that benefited from the fact that you didn't have those boundaries and you didn't know how to speak up for yourself. Yeah. So it was a progressional, it was a, it was progress, not perfection.

18:53And even when I met Ryan, right, a lot of people could argue and be like, you slept with him on the first date? And it's like, yeah, I had tried both options. I tried not sleeping with someone. Ryan, your current partner. Yeah, I tried not sleeping with someone for 10 dates. But what it was was I changed how I approached things. I was okay no matter what, that I had to, I loved myself more than the need to be loved by other people because I was more afraid of losing me than I was afraid of losing him. And that was really sexy and attractive to him as well. This episode is sponsored by Zenni. You know that I am a glasses girl, and it's really important to have glasses that you like because they go on your face.

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20:08And there's over 150 ,000 five-star reviews and virtual try-on. So you can feel confident about your choice. Obviously, you want to do that before you order. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off plus free shipping over$60. styles do sell out so please don't wait that's z-e-n-n-i dot com slash podcast promo code podcast 15 zendi.com slash podcast code podcast 15 what are some key things that you did in therapy and outside of therapy to help you get to the point where you were no longer repeating this pattern A couple of things.

21:04I had to take the shine off these people and make them a real person. That was the game changer for me. How did you do that? Even just acknowledging. So something as simple as, oh, we, we, they made me feel really safe. I'd be like, okay, what, what about that? Like I had to quantify it. Every time I would write something down, I had to have a little branch of three versions. Because if I couldn't come up with something, I would go, okay. So then that person didn't actually make me feel safe. And so I actually had to sit with myself. But that started with, of course, going to therapy and having these awarenesses and realizing and getting that.

21:32doing inner child work and all those beautiful and amazing practices. But taking the shine off of people, because I get that all the time, and I'm sure you do too, right? They were the one. It's like, ah, what made them the one? They were not the one. Look at the narrative and story that you're creating about this person. Putting a pause changed my life. Right now, even like my brother and I, we had the first time the other night, he was getting really riled up. And even my mom, she was like, I saw how you handled it. And I just went, I talked to him, and I was like, hey, what's going on with you?

21:57And we were able to talk, and it wasn't, I didn't go into my knee-jerk reaction. by just literally sitting and reminding myself like, hey, you're safe, you're good, put 60 seconds. Because that's what made me, when I was texting Teddy over and over and over again, I didn't have any space because space meant I'm not safe. And so I really had to learn, I set my clock for 60 seconds and I'm like, okay, you're gonna do this. And then 60 seconds went up. I was like, can we do another 60? Can we do another? And then all of a sudden, it's funny because when I first started dating and friendships, I was the one that would text a million times and go, then the pendulum swung.

22:28And then like when I started choosing myself, I ended it with a friendship and I'll never forget. She texted me the next day and said, I know if I don't text you, I'll never hear from you again. And I was like, I started to learn. I don't need to chase. I don't need to over explain because I actually listened to myself. I started to say this didn't work for me. I don't like the way I felt. A friend said, if I don't text you, I feel like I'll never hear from you again. Because we I stopped the friendship the night before. I was done. Yeah. And she she knew that I went from before texting 173 times trying to get to the end.

22:58someone back that I was like, I'm not going to reach out to you. Right. Like I'm in your life. And when I'm not, you're going to now feel that I'm not. Yes. So I just really started to implement, but it was very small, right. Setting a boundary with someone and then, oh, a corrective experience. Like they didn't yell at me. Okay. So this is safe. It took me nine years to get to where I'm at now. So it's not like a quick, no, it's never quick. It's never quick. It's never even the big moments in therapy. You can have an aha moment. Okay. What are you going to do with it? Yeah. Yeah, because you heal in the relationships.

23:29You have to have the experience. You talk about being ghosted by a friend twice in the book, and I really appreciate that you added that because I don't think we talk nearly enough about the pain that comes with losing friendship and being ghosted by a friend is really, really intense. Was that... Has friendship been something that's been difficult as well? Well, friendship has been... Anybody that thinks that anxiety or that these patterns only come in one area of life are just not being objective enough because you start to realize your career, your friendships, your relationships. So they didn't text me.

24:07It's been 20 minutes. I started noticing I would do that with friends where I would be like, oh, did I say something wrong? And I had to stop and be like, huh. Like, are they mad at me? Would you have that thing going on? All the time. Are they mad at me? You read the text again. You're like, maybe I didn't support them enough. Did I talk too much about myself? Was I not asking questions? Because my life has always been, you need to calm down. You're too much. You need to slow down. I also have ADHD. So it's harder for me to just do that. Now, what I've realized is that those are just not the right people for me.

24:36Right? Stacey in the book, my friend. I'm like, I sometimes take the whole day to respond back. I hope she doesn't think that. Not at all. But that's just me, you know. Now. Sometimes I don't look at my phone, believe it or not. Yeah. Same. Or like I see something and then I literally forget. and then I just kind of do my responses at the end of the day typically you and I've done that we're like you'll text me three times about three different things yeah no I don't take I don't take any exactly then I'm like sorry I was I was gone all day now yeah but I never take that yeah it's never I now I don't take it personal at all I don't take it personal with anyone at all honestly and it's so funny because I'm a quick texter the only reason I'm a quick texter is if I don't do it I'm gonna forget you're gonna forget yeah well 100 and I've had friends come to me and they're like hey I hope you don't think I'm mad I'm like oh I they're like you just quick respond quickly I'm like, please know that I'm doing that for me.

25:19This is not because I'm mad at you. But it took me a long time because for a long time I equated texting meant they like you. Dating, especially. Why aren't they texting me good morning? It took them 23 minutes. Why didn't they put a period? They didn't put an emoji. They went on social media. They didn't text me first. You create this entire dopamine reward loop based on a text message instead of looking and saying, but how else is this person showing up? Because if I were to get mad that you didn't answer me, it's like you and I I have two years of data for me to go, we've never had an issue.

25:46And if we do, she'll talk to me about it. But I needed to be aware enough to be able to challenge that. And that took me a long time to get to because I would take it very personal if a man didn't text me every single morning, good morning, until I realized that all the guys that were doing that were wasting my time. Yeah. Although, doesn't the guy who's actually interested reach out every day? No, Ryan didn't. He hates texting. Hates it with a passion. And he was clear about that from the get. He said, I don't want a digital relationship. I will call you. But he would call you, right? Not every day.

26:15Yeah. In the beginning, like we saw each other. The next day he texted me saying, I'd like to see you again. That was Monday. We saw each other Thursday. We only, he confirmed plans Wednesday night. And that's, I'm sorry, but that's how adults do it. Thank you. Correct. Like the spending, like the constant, why do you need to talk every day if you have a life? Why are you texting good morning when you met this person the night before? Yeah. Why are you texting good morning? Hi. Okay, thanks. Go have a good day. We'll talk later. I agree. but for me it was that means they like me well I think if there's a I think if you have a good date um and you don't hear I think it's I don't think it's a good sign if you don't hear I had a really good time with you like the next day or something like that and there isn't a fairly quick turnaround of like when they'd like to see you again right beyond that though yeah beyond that it's just then then I don't I certainly it actually gives me anxiety to think like I have to talk to you every day like no like make the date stick to it um you know but like the checking in yeah because a lot of times that constant checking in with a stranger to me is insecurity playing out at night or immaturity playing out it's a false sense of intimacy yeah and it's very it's it's quite it's just quite childish you think you're so much closer to this person and yeah but you're also creating text has no tone so you're creating how they would say it yeah right how many times i have had that where I text and someone's like, are you mad?

27:37I'm like, oh, sorry, no, I just was short. I was just in the middle of something. Yeah, because you can't pick up tone or anything like that. But I think that's where the disconnect is. Like I've had so many people write in, it's actually at nauseam, of this person's amazing. The dates are incredible. They're very consistent. They plan dates every, you know, twice a week. They're moving the relationship, but they don't text me every day. And it's like, okay, fast forward a year from now. Fast forward a year from now, play this game with me. You live together. Is that still an issue? Yeah. I didn't think so.

28:04and but we because there's these 22 year old on tiktok being like if they don't text you every day if they take five hours to respond block them yeah i know it's like what do you do first of all that tells me more about you than it does about them yeah because here's the thing people could pick up on that yeah people can pick up on the fact that you are hypercritical you don't allow them to be a human yeah and you're putting all of your worth in their response time yeah and so and then there's but then there's the threshold of just like you know it's it's you send a text maybe something like a cute photo of yourself and then the person doesn't respond until like seven hours later not usually a good sign unless unless they're they've been they're traveling they're really busy whatever it is it's like so sorry i've been tired i've been on the couch all day like okay that person's actually is it a pattern right if somebody does that once like you and i communicate all the time if it's one day that i don't hear from them i'm just swamped yeah but it's different when it's a romantic situation of course but if every single time you text them there's eight to 12 hours between every response well then you're just not a priority yeah you know they're not prioritizing you but if it happens where it's like hey i've been in back-to-back meetings i'm so sorry i just now i'm getting to my phone or they prefaced it yeah right hey i'm gonna be traveling today i will text you tomorrow at the very least they're being clear and communicative absolutely i also think there's just generation yes going on you know like we weren't like we weren't raised on social media we didn't have it we didn't have it it's great Yeah.

29:31We also got to go to high school where not everything was documented. You didn't have to worry about being an idiot. Especially me, because I'm a lot older than you. But yeah, especially. But you didn't have to worry about going to a party and having this put online the next day. You didn't have to worry about being a stupid teenager. No, no. Or saying something dumb. Like, I think back now, I'm like, I would never send half the text or photos I sent. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. But yeah, and I just wonder if it's just like, you know, this, this sort of atrophy of social skills and that the younger generations, but we're seeing it with older people too.

30:04There was just like the constant texting back and forth and not actually just meeting and having a one-on-one and just, and just chatting. It's just, it's fascinating to me. And then people wonder why they're struggling so much. Intermittent reinforcements, one hell of a drug. I mean, it really is. It really is. It's like, would you go to a casino? Would you play a slot machine if you knew every time you were going to win? No, it's not as fun. Would you play a slot machine if you knew every time you were going to lose? It's not as fun. But dopamine creates the same, or the texting creates that same dopamine reward loop.

30:36Because dopamine is released in anticipation of. Then you get serotonin when you get the actual text. But it's a lot smaller. And then dopamine has a threshold. So you have to go higher and higher and higher. If you and I did, if we did heroin tonight, It'd be a great time. But then every time thereafter, you're trying to get to that baseline. Yeah, it's chasing the dragon. It moves higher and higher. And people don't understand that that's your cell phone. Yeah. Right? There's now data that you're thinking of your phone when you're not on your phone. I know. It's so fucked up. It is. And I find myself doing it too.

31:04Right? Where you're not and you're like, I wonder who texts me. And I'm like, oh girl, no. This episode is sponsored by Quince. By the way, I am wearing a Quince t-shirt right now. Earlier, I was wearing Quince pajamas, and there's some Quince sheets on my bed. I'm obsessed with them. You know, like, those pieces in this closet you find yourself reaching for over and over again? That's like me. I find I just get these special pieces, and I just get as many as I can. I just wash them and wear them all the time. Like, the T-shirt that somehow... or the sweater that works with everything. The jeans you know always fit right, or the great bag.

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32:26Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Jillian on love. It's the best way to support the show. let's talk about um what boundaries should be when it comes to what who we follow or who someone you're dating follows and likes and all of that because i think it's um and if you should be following exes that you're not even friends with anymore and like where there should be boundaries because i think of it so much as a value thing you know definitely it's the main thing is women saying, you know, I'm dating this guy, but he follows all these, you know, Instagram models, blah, blah, blah.

33:13But then sometimes not always, but sometimes that same woman is posting pictures of herself on Instagram that are very, very, what's the term? Thirst trap, thirst trap. Sorry. It's generational gap, but like very thirst trappy. And so, and I have to explain to her, how to have the conversation with him, but that if she wants him to have boundaries with himself about who he follows on social media, if he's going to be in a relationship with you, you have to have those same values and those same boundaries. You can't then be posting photos that are, if you were honest with yourself, you're doing it to get the validation.

33:55So I do think it's a two-way street, but I'm just curious to know your thoughts on it. I have a few thoughts on it. I think I get the same thing every day. Like they follow all these Instagram models and things. It's not about who they follow. It's about what that means about you. Right. Because usually underneath that is, do they find them more attractive? Are they not into me? Are they going to leave me? Do they, are they going to cheat? Are they not happy with what they have? I don't look like her. that I can understand and I can hold space for all that. So we then know it's not really about the girl and that they're following.

34:24It's the intentions. It's you wondering their morals, ethos, and ethics. I think the values, right? I would say I personally have never cared about that. It's the new porn, basically. It is. Yeah. I would say, like, because Ryan has followed some girls. I haven't seen him. I'm like, oh, what? And he's like, I don't even know how I, like, I remember following her. He's like, I thought she was pretty and I hit follow. You know, but a lot of people do that. Yeah, he's like, or she's a fitness and he's like, I liked her fitness, but she's like, ah, and so it would watch. If I were to say, like, I don't love it, he'd be like, well, follow her right now, I don't give a shit.

34:51He's like, I'm very happy with you. But I also think that, to your point, right, I don't post the thirst traps. I'm not in the super sexy all the time. I would say this, though. If that's the number one thing you're worried about, are you ready for a healthy and secure relationship if you're feeling that insecure about? Again, if they follow a thousand of them, why would you date that person? If they follow one or two and you're just making a mountain out of a molehill because there's that insecurity, well, then I would say, like, I just don't worry about things like that personally because I'm incredibly confident in who I am.

35:23I know I'm... But if you see, like, a whole line and it's all that, that would actually, that would definitely give me a pause. Yeah, it would be a turnoff for me. It would be a turnoff. I think, yeah. And I actually don't think I'd be threatened by it. I think I'd be turned off by it. Right. Yeah. That's where I want to understand the story and narrative that's being created. Yeah. Because if there's a, that's why I said, if there's a thousand and their whole feed is all these girls, you're then just wondering are they actually intentional about a relationship like i understand that men are visual creatures or do they have any sexual um discipline correct that's where it's like i would then go why are you dating this person yeah but i think that for some people it might just be one or two like i had a client and i bless her heart but she was always terrified that her partner was cheating on her every single one because every person before and this poor guy who would be there he's a personal trainer and so he would be messaging he would show her the messages he's like she booked an appointment like i cannot stop the fact that i feel i feel for both people in this scenario because it's just i think it's a lose lose it's a lose lose and it's just it's hell and i you know it's like when you've been cheated on it's like it's traumatic but then it's like not fair to the the new partner at all and can be very you know you sabotage my response i'm like do you want to date a personal trainer like do you want to date someone who's with beautiful women all the time and you probably and if you're really and if you're really insecure because of past experiences, you probably shouldn't, honestly.

36:44That's where you have to, I think there just has to be a level of just like, it's like, yes, we want to get ourselves to a secure place, but we also have to be real with ourselves. And if we just, if it's too triggering, then like you have to be practical. Like then don't date a fashion photographer. I know, right? Like then don't date like, you know, also like people who run restaurants and stuff like that. You know, it's just, there's just certain jobs where people are around either a lot of drugs and alcohol, a lot of beautiful people. And like, sometimes you just have to say, okay, yeah, I'd like to be more secure, but I just have to also face the fact that like, this is a thing for me.

37:27So I can't do it. Like, I'm not going to put myself through that kind of hell. I broke up with a guy who was a Victoria's Secret model photographer because I was like, I was, I trusted him. It wasn't that. I felt insecure. And I just was like, I can't know that every day you're oogling and ogling on these women. I mean, you're seeing the most beautiful women on the planet in underwear all day. Yeah. And that's okay. And he understood it. Like, there was no bad blood between us. And that's why he's been very open about his career, because he was like, I understand it's not for everybody. He ended up dating a model, right?

37:55That made sense to me. Whereas I think, listen, I understand it's not that I think that anyone's unrealistic for saying that that bothers them. but I would then go if somebody's following a thousand social media hot babes there's probably other behavioral traits that are coming out that you probably also don't like yeah because I don't think they're like the most secure incredible human all that but they just so happen to follow all these women yeah because you have to because it again it goes down to values if there's if they're a person of like high integrity then um and then they're doing that there's a disconnect there's a disconnect especially when like they're flaming all of their things they're commenting in all their photos oh that's a whole nother level that i absolutely that's a that's a non-starter for me yeah i think the the disconnect is i think a lot of women write into us trying to figure out how to change them and i think what it's really about is like have the conversation right you can say hey i want to share something with you you know is now a good time right i always ask for consent because you don't want to just run up with your phone and start accusing somebody of something or text them a million times yeah yeah you don't want to turn it to me and then just say And this is an in-person conversation because text can get very muddied.

39:00And very, and therefore very messy. Very messy. And I want to then see, because if the, if the person, if you say, hey, this isn't because I feel insecure. It just makes me uncomfortable that you follow this many women. I would feel more comfortable if you didn't, but I would like to know if that's something you're willing to do. Right. You're a, a boundary isn't that you have to do something. The boundary is, this is what I'm okay with. I don't want to date someone that does that. Yeah. So then that means that I make a choice if they say, because if their response is like Ryan going, oh my God, yeah, let me unfollow them right now.

39:26I didn't even have that girl in 15 years. Cause Instagram does do that. They hide people and you don't even remember who you follow. Totally. So if it's a couple, fine. And they're like, babe, I got you. I want to see how they react when you come to them telling them that something bothers you. Because if it's, wow, well you're just insecure. Like, God, here you go again, making an issue. I wouldn't date that person even if they weren't following those people. Because look at how you're coming and how you're responding when I come to you with a need. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's a, that's a big one. Right?

39:52It tells me so much more about the emotional intelligence. Can we fight? Can we have conflict with him and resolution? But you have to start that conversation well. That's why I always ask for consent. Hey, can I share something with you? Can I talk to you about something that's bothered me? Because I want to make sure that that person's in a place to receive that because I've had it where Ryan's like, babe, give me two minutes and I am all yours. Yeah, absolutely. The last thing you want is someone who's in the wrong state to have that conversation. Not going to bode well. But you have every right to have the conversation.

40:20But I think where the wheels fall off the car is when it's the like, you need to do this or you're accusing somebody like you're doing something unethical. And you're like, or the, yeah. And the anxiety of like, we have to have this conversation right now. That's, I think, a very, very big mistake that people who are anxious make, honestly. That's why the power of the pause changed my life. When you can actually put space between the stimulus and your reaction, you have space to respond. because then you're not coming at it from, this is my old wound and you need to validate it. You get to process and say, what's actually bothering me?

40:53How do I want to show up? And then what are my choices? Because then I can come to you and say, hey, instead of it, you're cheating on me, aren't you? It's not what this is about. Instead, it's, this makes me feel like, are you attracted to me? Do you like me? Because you're all redheads. And maybe there's something here that I'm missing, right? And maybe they say, yeah, like that's my kink. And you're like, cool, we want to have a conversation about this. but I think that's where we lose it is because we approach things and I used to do that of like urgency right is it your anxiety or intuition anxiety comes with urgency and a narrative and body sensations I need to do it now I have to get an answer intuition is significantly calmer yeah right if I were to say Jillian do you like that plant you're like no cool that's your immediate reaction was I don't like that versus oh shit but what if what if what if that's your favorite plan and yeah the whole thing and is she gonna be mad at me is she gonna think I'm mean if I say I don't like it yeah like am I gonna hurt the plant's feelings yeah leave it to do about being like oh I don't want to hurt the plant's feelings I mean exactly but that's the difference because when I I know if I have to talk about it in the moment that I shouldn't talk about it yeah I had that with Ryan he said something and it was like so minute it really wasn't a big deal I that was it I just was I got the wave of heat and I remember I looked at him and I was like I'm gonna go upstairs before I say something I'm gonna regret he was like okay and I did and then like 20 minutes later I came down and I was like so I overreacted and I'm so sorry like I had to take ownership because in the room when I cried I like let it out it just and then when I realized I was like oh this has nothing to do with him dude you just got really something came up for you I was dealing with something outside of him he just wrong place wrong time is there like a is there an internal like dialogue or like do you like like how walk us through how you coach yourself in that moment or is it all just like physical and visceral letting go both okay so i think they because i i think if we have one without the other you're doing yourself a disservice so what i look at is like i know my trigger points as far as what they feel like so when i get this wave of heat and or i start to tense or i start to feel like i shut down or i just look down that's how it manifests for me in those moments i already know like i'm not i'm not here yeah and so i ryan and And I've already had such a relationship where I can say, I'm offline.

43:02I'm going to go upstairs for five minutes. And that's why I usually tell him, I don't want to say something I'm going to regret. So please give me a few minutes. And he knows, okay, you got like, go take the time. Then when I'm in the room, usually what I do is I first allow myself to feel it. Like I'll cry, I'll scream into a pillow. Like I just let it out. Then I usually do a couple of deep breaths and I'm like, okay, Sabrina, what's actually bothering you here? And so I'll just let the narrative go, right? You and I were doing that this morning where I started talking, talking, talking. And then as I started to talk, I'm like, there it is.

43:27Yeah. So then once I acknowledge it and I'm like, okay, how old do I feel? Right? Those are the two questions in the book that changed my life. How old do I feel? And where did I learn this from? So once I say, how old did I feel? It could be any age. It doesn't have to be two. It could be 25. Yeah. Then I start to understand, okay, what happened then? Oh, okay, so that's what bothered me. This feels like this. Where did I learn this from? Oh, my dad was dismissive and Stacy ghosted me, whatever. Then from there, I can say, okay, what is it that you need from me? And maybe what I need from me is I need to have a conversation with this person, but I want to have a conversation about what's actually bothering me.

43:58And I take a solid 20 or 30 minutes to process before I'll come back to Ryan. Because I don't think it's fair to do it any other way personally. So I really will sit with it. Sometimes I'll text a friend. Sometimes I'll call my mom like you're allowed to co-regulate with people. Oh, as you should. But it can't be every time. Right. No, you need to be able. Right. You need to be able to go into your room, go into the go for a walk and come back and be like, OK, I'm here now. Yeah. And that's why I think walking is such a beautiful experience because it's not that the actual I mean, yes, bilateral movement, but it allows you to get out of your head for.

44:29Oh, yeah. It's brilliant. And just kind of take a look around and be like, oh, right. I'm here right now. I'm not a kid anymore. OK. So that's at least what I do for me as I start to understand where do I feel this? how old do I feel where did I learn this from so the process is first let me feel my first let me take a time out take a time out so I don't say something impulsive that I mean let me feel my feelings let it out and then how how old do I feel right now and what is this all and like when did it all begin kind of thing yeah like where did I learn this from that way yeah I can reparent in that moment of like hey because I think what I see so often and I'm curious if you do too I see a lot of people that when they feel the big feelings, you go right into like, you're a loser, you're an idiot, we start to shame, we blame.

45:12I first go into validating of like, of course you're allowed to be upset. That was a hurtful thing. Yeah. Even if it's not that the person's bad. Yeah. So let's say even if it was something that you didn't answer me for a day, I'd be like, of course, that feels shitty. But I don't need to then make meaning out of that feels shitty. Yeah. So that's the first thing. I validate the emotion so I can be like, I'm not gonna gaslight myself to be like, you need to get over this. You're being dramatic. That's not what this is about. Right. Then once I do that and I feel heard, that's when I can access that place of, okay, so what's really bothering you?

45:40Yeah, you want to go back. You want to come to your wise adult self. Yeah. I want to be the adult I didn't have. Yeah. Yeah. This episode of Jillian on Love is brought to you by Alloy Health. Here's something nobody tells you. The skin changes that start in your 40s aren't just aging. They're hormonal, specifically estrogen loss. Estrogen naturally helps maintain collagen, supports elasticity, and keeps skin hydrated. So as estrogen declines, skin gets thinner, drier, and just more crepey. For me, I've just noticed like once I turn 40, like just my skin just kind of getting drier. So just making sure that I stay hydrated and I have like a great moisturizer is so incredibly important.

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47:14This code is valid on products only. There are compounded products not subject to FDA approval. I think that this is also it's well this is this is gold but it's an and also I think when you're in a relationship where you don't have all the resentment built up it's a good relationship of course once in a while you're going to tick each other off but that ability to to give to assign positive intent to your partner like because where I've seen it go really really south in couples is you have that reaction and it's the story immediately is they wanted to hurt me or they did that on purpose or they don't care and that whole narrative which is very hard to avoid if there's been months and years of resentment stacked up because that's when you get to a really gnarly place but that that that that process of being like being able to say oh he didn't mean it that He didn't mean to me.

48:20He may have hurt my feelings. And I have to express that. But it's very different. There's a huge difference between, he hurt my feelings, or they hurt my feelings, I need to express that, and... but they meant to do that. Versus, they hurt my feelings, but I know that this person loves me, and is a good person, and didn't mean to do that. And just that positive intent is so incredibly important. I found myself doing that. You get road rage, right? You're driving, and somebody will cut you off, and you're like, what an asshole. And you look and you're like, well, how do you know that? Right? Like they didn't, they didn't look and be like her.

48:54She's the one today. And I couldn't agree more because I think at the end of the day, if I'm going to sit there and be like, he wanted to hurt me, then my next response is like, well, then wait, why am I with this person? Why would I be with somebody if they're intentionally trying to hurt my feelings? You know, those exist. Don't get me wrong. It's not like that never happens. But I know at least for me, I'm choosing my partner. My partner's choosing me for a very good reason. Now I can still go to him and say, hey, this was the impact. I know it wasn't your intention, but this was the impact.

49:20Yeah, you could still say it still hurt my feelings. 100%. Yeah. But I always, and Ryan at first, he used to be like, well, that wasn't my intention. And I would start and I'd be like, hey, I understand that, but please stop trying to defend yourself and instead trying to understand me. And so we then got into a mode where he would say, that wasn't my intention, but that doesn't mean that the impact wasn't still there. Can I understand more about what your perception was? Women also, we get our, our feelings get hurt more easily than men. So much more easily. So if you're, whoever you are, if you date a woman, You have to understand our feelings get hurt easily.

49:48Sensitive. And that's just, it's just not going to change. It's, that's part of, it's part of our DNA. We're, we are more sensitive because we also had years of conditioning where you said like, be the good girl, don't ruffle feathers. Also our hormonal system. I mean, our endocrine system, just enough. Yeah. Right. I'm like, our 28 days is very different than the 24 hours men have. Yeah. Yeah. They go through what we go through in one day. Yeah. And, but then there's also the other side of the coin of like, and then there are some men that struggle to tap into that. So when we're overly emotional, then they can shut down because that doesn't feel safe.

50:17Yeah, and that causes more problems between male-female relationships than probably anything else. I'll say this. The only reason I have the relationship I have is because I've worked hard to get it. I have shown up authentically. I have been blunt and direct. I have been myself. And my partner loves that and vice versa. That's the only reason we're here. Because if I had been hiding this or playing small or don't be dramatic, don't say anything, just bite your tongue. or being mean right being mean being whatever right yeah if i were doing all of this i wouldn't have this relationship but we have it to where if i could call him right now and be like hey can i share something with you yeah what's going on because he's created a space where i feel safe and i've done the same to where he knows i'm not attacking him and i actually want to do this because i will stop by saying i'm doing this because i genuinely care about you and i want our relationship to progress if i don't tell you i'm just going to harbor it and that's not cool yeah because then you know how six months later you're like and you did this and you did this and the person's like, why didn't you tell me that?

51:10Why didn't you tell me that in the moment? Because I don't even remember what that situation was. Yeah. And that's a very unfair thing to do to your partner. And that's actually when partners will look at us and just think, is she nuts? And for me, it's like, that's what I dub in the book, the bullshit blueprint, right? We all have a blueprint that we've been operating on since before we even came out the womb, right? When we were in our mother's stomach and we were getting all these messaging based on her stress and all the things that were happening. Then you come out into the world and it doesn't mean you had bad parents.

51:39Like that's what we need to dispel. You can have little t traumas. You can have a parent that just like maybe didn't pick you up at school every day. And then you started to create narratives. It's okay. It doesn't mean you had bad parents, but we learn this behavior in society, in culture, Disney lied to us, right? Friendships, there's an amalgamation of things, but you, you make so much sense. You are the way you are because you learned it from somewhere. And instead of shaming and attacking those people, we can learn to have compassion and space for them and ourselves because they did the best they could with the information they know.

52:07I don't think it's not, it's not always okay. No, no, no, absolutely. But this, this is, you know, your father and the story with your father is, is a, is a big part of all of this. Um, he was a volatile man, still is right. Very much so. Yeah. And, um, there was some violence, a little bit of abuse. So where are you at with this today? I, this book is what's going to be the nail in the coffin for me with him. And I've, I've had a conversation with both of my siblings and my mom and both of them know anything in this book is because I need to speak my truth and that what we went through wasn't okay.

52:50Did you, was there any, at any point were you considering like, should I write this book? Should I not? Should I wait till he passes away? I was scared. I was. But then I realized, if I don't face the big bad wolf, then I'm always going to be scared of the shadow. And so if I can face my dad, because he disowned me five years ago. It was the same stuff he always does. I said no to him about going to a wedding. He disowned you. So then, has there been estrangement? This was two years we didn't speak. And we've had that before. Like, he disowned me when I was 16 because we wouldn't fight for him to come to my grandfather's funeral, even though it wasn't his blood.

53:25He had done that a few times in my adult life. And then so he would ghost you or the other way around? He would say, don't ever call me again. Fuck you. You're not my kid. I'm done with you. That would be it. And then I would do that. This was the first time where I remember hanging up and I looked at my girlfriend and I was like, I'm done. I'm not doing this again. And I changed the way I dated after that. Because if I could lose him, the one person I'm terrified of losing, then what am I so scared about with all these other people? And so I started finding my voice and saying, but I need to stand up for myself because he's not going to.

53:55And so now, if he wants to have a conversation, I would love to talk to him about my experience, but he doesn't take accountability, and so it's going to be very difficult to do that. Yeah. And that's okay. I figure if I help one person, it's worth it, because I then help myself, and I get to actually speak the truth that I think is important to speak instead of pretending and being like, I had a great childhood when I didn't. Yeah. I don't think that helps. is there a part of you that wants to reach some sort of peace with him whether it's with him directly or just in your mind and what do you think it would what do you think would have to happen in order for you to get there i i know with him it's never going to happen based on even just my siblings calling me the other day and they're like it's not it's never going to happen as a result of having a conversation with correct yeah but i think i have made amends with myself that i will never get the father i think i deserved i will never have the childhood that i wanted I will never be daddy's little girl in that way.

54:48And I will never have that my dad's my best friend. And that's okay. Do you tell yourself that your dad doesn't love you? I know he loves me in his capacity. Okay. And I, he's a very limited man. I don't think he's a bad person, but I do think he's very ill-equipped and never wanted to be a father. And that manifested in a lot of ways because he doesn't know how to deal with kids. But you don't internalize it because as a child, I'm sure you internalize it. Hence is why you did everything. But that's something that you've been able to separate. I had to. I had to because you know why? I had to hold him accountable for his behavior and then take accountability for mine.

55:19I had to hold my mom accountable. I had to hold everybody in this scenario accountable because not everything is all one person. How did you hold yourself accountable when it comes to your parents? That I learned behavior from them and internalized that that meant they didn't care about me. So I had to take accountability of the story that I created, right? That my dad hates me and it's like, no, he doesn't hate you. He just doesn't know what to do with you. Yeah. He doesn't, it's not that he's sitting there being like, I can't wait to hurt her. It's almost not personal. Right? It's not because this is how he is with everybody.

55:46But that I think sometimes can be harder because you're like, I'd rather just be personal and then at least I know and I have an answer. It's really hard to look at and say, but as a parent, like he wasn't there for any of our births. He was mad at my mom for being pregnant. He didn't want kids. Like, he never wanted us. He now says he did. And that's fine. He can have his narrative. I don't... It doesn't mean it has to be mine. And so I think when I took full accountability of my truth and realizing I abandoned myself in the ways that he did. I was doing to me what he was doing to me. I was calling myself names.

56:14I was putting myself down. I was on my own loop. I had to take accountability of that. It wasn't my fault. I didn't deserve that. Of course, I was a shitty kid sometimes, right? You're a child. I didn't deserve to be hit. I didn't deserve to be left. I didn't deserve any of that. But I have to take accountability and ownership that I also don't need to carry that anymore. I think that's really hard for a lot of us. Yeah, it's huge. And I think it's a huge feat to be able to say, I'm taking accountability for the story I've been telling myself about this for so long, and I can release that. I can let that one go.

56:43I don't need to be a learned help. I'm not a child anymore. Yeah. And I've now realized, like, and don't get me wrong, it still manifests. We've talked about it in my career, in my personal life, right? Like, there are still moments where I think I'm going to lose everything or people hate me. But I have the tools now. The mountain didn't change. I still have to climb it. But I'm not naked crawling up it hoping for something. I have all the tools I need. Now I just have to do it. This episode of Jillian on Love is brought to you by Indeed. Indeed. Indeed Sponsored Jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent.

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58:00Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Did you ever date volatile men? No, I never did. I dated men with tempers, never anything physical. Okay. I dated men that made me feel as dismissed as he did. The men I dated were replicas of my father in the sense that I felt the same way I did with him. I felt dismissed. I felt like I had to earn love. I felt like they didn't genuinely care about me. And I think that's the disconnect.

58:37A lot of people are like, well, I don't want to date my dad. I don't. It's like, you don't have to... It doesn't mean that they have to look the same or act the same, but you felt the same with them. That's what we're looking for. That's my experience with my ex-husband. I mean, my ex-husband and my father could not have looked any different. Their personalities were wildly different. I mean, such different energies. But, you know, my ex-husband would like shut down. I mean, criminally would shut down. And that feeling of tension, of being around him, not knowing if it was something I did to trigger him.

59:20It's the feeling. It's what you feel inside your body. But it's, you know, it's an interesting thing between like having a parent that was not equipped to be a parent and then your dating choices. Because I've definitely had been with lovely people. And I think that sometimes it's it's it's funny when it when it comes up, when it actually gets triggered versus when it when it's not triggered. I've had some, the flip side of the coin is we're so used to running from red flags that we don't realize, but what about receiving the green? Yeah. When you're so used to saying, well, I don't want men that dismiss me or discredit me or make me feel smaller.

1:00:00I have to earn their love. But then your core beliefs are that I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I'm not deserving. So then you meet someone that's like, I think you're amazing and you don't have to earn anything. And you're like, what's wrong with you? Exactly. You're like, oh, no, thanks. This is too easy because my nervous system is going, no, no, no, no. We don't, we don't know how to do this because then what happens on the other side of that? I have to stop and say, well, maybe there's never been anything wrong with me. Maybe I have always been enough. And I was taught that will blow up your entire narrative that you've created about yourself.

1:00:26That's why I love this work. It's because it's not just run away from this. It's also, but are you ready to receive this? Yeah. And what is the story that you tell about yourself? Mine was never great. Yeah. Until I met my partner. I'm too much into this, into that. You think your current relationship was sort of like the big healing moment for you? It taught me that I can be fully myself and that that doesn't mean someone's gonna leave. That I can have really hard conversations. Like I say it all the time, if Ryan and I broke up tomorrow, yeah, I'd be sad, but I would also know that we're two adults making a choice.

1:00:58Because I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life. And I'm wanting somebody. I have to love myself more than the need to be loved by somebody else. Because otherwise, I'm constantly doing everything I can to keep them. And I think that this was a corrective experience to know, this is my husband, great. Like, we may get married and we went off to the sunset, fabulous. But if not, then it's safe for me to be myself because there is somebody out there that will love me for that. I mean, that's huge. And I think it's very important, a very important thing that you raise because the debate of do you need to be fully healed before you're in a relationship or do you heal inside relationship?

1:01:31And I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, you had to do some work on yourself to even choose a man who would actually not be rejecting of you. Yeah. And then, but then the real healing happens to be able to have that kind of, as you call it, a corrective experience and how important that is. You will never be fully healed. But do you have enough capacity and bandwidth to stay in the discomfort? Yeah. That to me is everything. Or walk away from the intolerable. Correct, exactly. Because if you're me with Teddy, I didn't have the bandwidth. I didn't have any capacity for a real adult relationship because I didn't know what to do.

1:02:07You were also so young. I was so young. I needed to go. I needed a baseline of healing of being like, OK, so what do I actually want? What do I need? What feels good? What doesn't? But then I still had to experience it in relationships. I still had to date people where I go, oh, no, I don't like this. Oh, I actually do like this. That doesn't work for me. That does work for me. This feels scary to walk away, but I'm going to do it anyways. Wow, I didn't die. I'm OK. Because you can't. That's why I hate the saying of like, just stay single. It's like that's just avoiding. You're just avoiding dealing with anything coming up because you hurt in relationships, but you heal in them as well and if anybody has told you your partner's never going to trigger you they're fucking lying to you of course your partner's going to trigger you they're going to piss you off but it's about is it intentional and then what are you going to do with it i agree a thousand percent and and i'd love to hear your thoughts on this which is that i it's also not true that like your partner your partner shouldn't be triggering you 24 7 and i think that like there's so i think the pendulum has swung a little bit with people kind of saying like, your partner's going to be this and this and this and this and this.

1:03:09And like, they're going to annoy you and they're going to trigger you. And they're going to, you're going to bring up all your old stuff. Necessarily. Depends on patterns, right? It's patterns and it's not necessarily. I know people, all the people I know who are close to me, who are in really great relationships. They're not, they're not, they're the reason why it's so great is because it's not constant. Do they argue? Of course. Are there moments where they're triggered? Of course. Or is it, is being in a relationship with them, digging up every old wound and triggering them all the time? No.

1:03:44I think it's the balance too, right? Because for some of us, maybe it depends on the work that you have to do, right? If you didn't have the childhood and you're like, I'm good. I can, I can sit in this and this isn't care. But if you're like me that had a lot, it's like, yeah, my partner has a trigger is a neutral action or an action. Right. If my partner says no, that's not, he's allowed to say no. if I am losing my marbles, right? And then, but if he keeps doing it, if I say, hey, I hate when you do this, could you please? And then he does it again and again. And again, at that point, you're like, oh, you're just not listening to me.

1:04:12Yeah, yeah. But if you have a partner and you're going, and they're saying, oh my God, thank you so much for sharing that. Absolutely. And then they don't do it again. That's the beauty of it. Yeah. But of course, that's why there's a coach and she says, I don't fight. I've never fought with my partner. And it's like, I don't want, yeah, I don't want you to have arguments all the time, but you should be disagreeing because I don't know two people that think 100 % about the same thing about everything. Yeah, there's something, it was something that I heard Alison Armstrong say in a couples workshop course that arguing is a part of relationship, but you shouldn't really have conflict.

1:04:49And I thought that was a very interesting reframe, which is that, because conflict in her way, how I interpreted it. So let's just take it back to my interpretation of it. conflict is like you know when you think about even just conflicts out in the world in the wild conflict means like it's just this ongoing very deep thing it's not a disagreement it's like it's this thing that's actually standing in the way if if you're in conflict you are not you are not actually in relationship you're against each other you're against each other yes and so arguing is just two people, two headstrong or whatever, autonomous people with their own brains disagreeing on something.

1:05:34And sometimes it can get a little bit heated, but it's the stacking of all these arguments that actually turn into a conflict. And it's the conflict that tears people apart. Oh, if you're, if you're, if you're in a relationship with someone and they're calling you names and they're screaming and they're cursing, they're putting you down. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah, that, no, no, no, no, no. But if you're always fighting about the same things over and over and over again, eventually somebody or both of you need to be like, hey, what are we even arguing about anymore? Yeah, yeah. Like, what really truly is the conflict here?

1:06:00Right? It's not about the garbage. It's the fact that I don't feel like you heard me. It's like, oh, okay, let's talk about what it actually is. Power and love. Yeah. Right? But I think that's the balance. And it takes a lot of self-awareness for us to be able to stop and be like, huh, do I want to continue this? Or is this a dead end? Yeah. Is there progress? I'm not looking for perfection, but I'm looking for progress. I'm looking for someone that is motivated to say, yeah, I'm willing to do what I need to do. Coach, I don't care. It doesn't have to always mean that You go to a therapist, but are they having different conversations?

1:06:25Maybe they join a men's group. Maybe they ask their friend that's married, whatever it is. But are they trying to understand you? To me, that's what's so important. Yeah, that's major. Well, I mean, look, it's no wonder that you went from, you know, a young woman who would have complete, like, emotional regulation meltdowns and anxiety to the woman who now takes a time out, goes through a whole process to regulate and to come back to her adult self. It's no wonder that you've, like, learning that, that this is something that you want to teach to others. And this is what you've done so well on social media and your podcast and what you're so passionate about and what this book is all about.

1:07:06So your very first book, Why Am I Like This?, is literally available. It's on sale tomorrow. Right now. Right now. Get it? Yeah, you can get it right now. You can pre-order it right now. and literally it'll be shipped out tomorrow. I'm so excited. This is so very exciting. I read the book. The book is absolutely brilliant. So everyone should run, not walk. And, you know, Sabrina, thank you so much for, I mean, there's so many people who have a, we can just like put attachment theory to the side or we can include it, but people have so much anxiety in relationships, whether it comes out as anxiously attached behavior or avoidant behavior.

1:07:49And so what you're doing is really important work. Back at you. So thank you for being here. And yeah, everyone, run, don't walk at this book right away. Thanks for having me. I can't wait to have you on Sabrina's Oher show so we can talk about your new book. It'll be so exciting. I can't wait. Thank you for being here, Sabrina. Thanks for having me. Jillian on Love is a Q Code production executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson, produced and edited by Travis Howe. Music by Will Tendi.

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