Have The Inbetweeners Influenced Fashion?

0:00Car crashes injure over a million of us every year because we're human. For over a decade, Waymo's been building a driver that's safer. Statistically, 10 times safer in the cities we serve. Not because humans aren't enough, but because they're everything. Based on over a 94 % reduction in serious injury or worse crash rates, Learn more at Waymo.com. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success.

0:47Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. Joe, just before we get started, I think that we've quickly gained a reputation to waffle of it because now the production team have brought in a great big massive counter, a great big massive clock telling us how long we've been talking for. It's giant as well. I know. It's massive. I do feel a little bit like they want us to think about the amount of time we're using. Absolutely. That's okay.

1:29It's your own time you're wasting. It's our own time I'm wasting, yeah. Shall I do the intro then? You do the intro. Let's go. Let's not have any fun. Joe and James. Joe and James. No, Joe and James. Joe and James. Fact up again. Joe and James, Joe and James, Joe and James. Joe and James, fact up. Welcome to Joe and James fact up. Each week we'll be bringing one another a fact that we deem interesting. And our policy is the more interesting, the more true it is. That's it. We'll also dig into the weird things that you'd like to think are true, but you can't be bothered to research yourself, in a segment we're calling Fact Check, which I believe, Lily May, we definitely do need to find from the comments.

2:13Is that where we're at? We need to give – I think people are feeling unfulfilled if they don't actually know. Unfilled. Unfilled? Unfilled, yeah. It's a bit from people showing. Anti-filled. if we don't actually give them whether it is a fact or not. So if you do want to send a fact to us or anything, basically, any correspondence you want to get to us, our email is hello at joeandjamespod.com. Our WhatsApp number is 07822034330. And you can follow us on our socials at joeandjamespod. And you can watch our full episodes on YouTube. Just search for Joe and James Fact Up. and they come out the same day that the episodes come out on whatever app you like to listen to your podcast to.

3:01And if you have forgotten those details already, which I have, all that information is in the description. Now, let's get fucked up. Okay, Joe, I do have correspondence here. Yeah. You guys have been sending in some fucked up messages. we've got one through WhatsApp is that right yep it's from Dom it's from Dom he says enjoying the show further to your discussion about the Mind the Gap announcement at Embankment Station that's like episode one wasn't it we've lit a fire there like people are interested in this in the Mind the Gap stuff yeah I worked for London on the ground for over 15 years well you say worked you're probably on strike for about oh oh no oh no no I worked I worked All in jest.

3:54Power to the people. Yeah. Comrade. I worked for the London Underground over 15 years and worked with the guy who did that. Brilliant. This is... Oh, hang on a minute. His name is Alan Budgen, one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet, now retired after over 40 years with the London... Sorry. I don't want to pick you up on this, James, but it does say 30. I know. Give me a second. It's gone on that. It's the digits. Yes. His name is Alan Budgen, one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet. Now retired after over 30 years with the London Underground. On hearing the background story, he went back into the archives.

4:37Or archives? No, archives. Definitely archives. Yeah. And was the person responsible for ensuring the announcement was reinstating. That's not my fault. That's not your fault. That is Dom's fault. Let's correct that. He went back into the archives and was the person responsible for ensuring the announcement was reinstated for the widow. He never gets credit for doing such an amazing thing. Give him a shout out on your next podcast. Well, I've already done it. He'd also love James to give him a train wanker. Well, Alan Budgen, you are the biggest train wanker, and congratulations. Yeah, and seriously, that is a cool thing to do.

5:19And he was the actual guy who did that, went into the archives, dug out the recording. That's a really nice thing to do. Let's get it all over the London Underground, though. Yeah, yeah. I think it should be. And also, Dom is from Chelmsford, where I'm from. That's right. Yeah. Which, I guess, so what a great message. Every part of that's good. Lovely stuff. Lovely stuff. I tell you what, even in this day and age, so nice. The words are shaking, Stephen. We've got a little bit of extra on this. The Fact Up team contacted TFL about restoring Oswald Lawrence's voice on all lines, and they said that they had been following our discussion.

6:04Nosey. However, we have a quote here. This is a brilliant quote. Yeah. We have no plans to be reinstate the old TFL voice, but we're always open to exploring ideas. Right. They weren't that open. Ideas about what? That is called a rejection. Thank you. Thank you for contacting us. You know, thanks for getting in touch. You know what? That's all you can ask, really. I've got the listeners. I've got another. I've got the listeners. Keep listening. I've got another message here. Do you want me to read it for you, Joe? Yes, please. Hello, Joe and James. Loving the podcast. But as I've been making my way through previous episodes, I've noticed Joe likes to use the word yeah quite a lot.

6:49Good. As I'm a sad, I thought I was going to catch up. As I'm a sado and had some spare time on my hands, I decided to do a yeah count while listening to the Battle of Hastings episode. I can confirm that Joe said yeah or yes. Wow. A total of 344 and a half times. where's the half come from I don't know that's fucking horrendous for balance James said yeah yes a total of 89 times cheers and we'll definitely be giving a five star review regardless well it doesn't sound like you should well no that's don't well no okay thanks if you do if you did want to give us a five star review that would be really appreciated well I have to say that is embarrassing thank you for your message Emma yes thank you Emma and I will take this as a wake up call and And you can't start replacing Yeah with Er, though.

7:46I just need to... You know what I think it is? Go on. There was a time where podcasts were just audio. And I think you're then aware that you're in an audio space. Yeah. In a darkness, if you will. Same with radio. And you think about audio in a much more focused way. Now that we're in a room together, I'm in a multi-sensory social space. and it becomes necessary as a human animal, if you like, for me to do the signals that show that I'm listening, which includes saying yeah. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to give the instruction to what I like to call my brain, which is a sort of organism that I have a kind of on-off relationship with.

8:28And I'm going to say, could you think about this and try and put it into practice? And we'll see what happens. So it's out of my hands, but maybe the brain will do it. Maybe the brain will kick in at some point. And actually, it's a horrifying count. I'm going to be honest, Joe. I'm going to try and cut down. I think if people, because I feel like all of what you just said then could have been expressed in a yeah. Yeah. So be careful. Be careful what you wish for. So you either want Joe to say yeah, or he'll start talking about the brain. Yeah. And imagine that. Imagine what I just said 344 and a half times.

9:04But thank you, Emma. A little fucking yeah. We are listening to your messages and the criticism. Yeah. And we do agree with it. We're with you. It's difficult to argue. It's difficult to get angry over. It's completely fair. Because you just go, yeah, you're absolutely right. The message about the trainer, the one that I liked, was extremely reasonable. It said, could Joe get some new trainers or at least clean the ones he's got? Well, you'll be pleased to know that Joe's partner went out and got him some trainers. Brought them home. Yes. And we were discussing. Told me they were too garish and that she wanted to take them back.

9:45And I said, no, let me wear them. Yeah. And now I'm wearing them. You know, you're allowed more than one pair of trainers, eh? Yeah. And I think we're going to maybe get another pair. Wow. Wow. That's a big commitment. I am now worried. Are you and Hannah ready for that? It's a big responsibility. well it's taken about 18 months to work up to getting this right so it's not gonna but we would just give ourselves a break we're gonna give ourselves a break give us a little break and then maybe you know yeah exactly but we were we were discussing your trainers just before we started uh talking and they're fine trainers there's nothing wrong with them there's nothing offensive about those trainers if anyone comments about those trainers they're mad yeah as far as i'm concerned but for me personally they're a bit too nothing we were talking about like when you get an acting job yeah and you need just some generic trainers for your character you were literally going these are just simon's trainers i know yeah i know simon from the in between they look like costume don't they yeah look like someone's plopped them on because somebody before they've gone on the one show or something they're brand new they're a brand that i've not heard of but they look quite like just generic.

10:58Well I should say I really this is Axel Arrogato. I really like this brand. I think maybe they're just a bit too clean and I have to say I am No, that's not the problem Joe. I am slightly put in mind of the Inbetweeners episode where Simon puts on the brand new trainers and then tries to go to the nightclub Right. And it's just a bit like whoa! No, don't Clean trainers always look bigger as well I'm going to put that your way You on board with that? I know we're not doing the facts yet No But it's a fact check It's a fact check Clean trainers look bigger Yeah Let me just search that up Just search for that We'll get to that I remember I remember when I When we first started doing the in-betweeners I was given some really Sort of like Poundland trainers to wear Right Yeah And Ian And the costume design was like Jane needs to wear white trainers in this scene And they were like Right okay Yeah Yeah.

11:54Honestly, he went to sort of Asda or something to get the trainers. Yeah. And Ian and Damon, the creators of the Inbetweeners, were like, no, you can't. Yeah. You do get beaten up at school. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, yeah, completely. You can't do that. And Jay would be wearing something that would be playground-proofed, if you know what I mean. But I was allowed to not have to wear shoes for the school scenes. What did you? Oh, I thought you meant at school. Okay. For the school scenes. Oh, yeah, you wore kind of straight black trainers or something, didn't you? I wore plain black, fairly similar to the trainers I'm wearing right now, but they're Adidas, but I wore plain black Reebok Classics.

12:32Because it's perhaps what Jay would have done. And then also a thing that people have really sort of picked up on Jay, something that's synonymous with Jay, is his Air Max 95s. Oh. People always, and especially now, I think they've sort of come around. I think they're really in Air Max 95s. Kids love an Air Max 95. I think they call them 110s, which I'm sort of a bit too old to call them 110s. I think it's slang because they cost£110. I think that's what it is. I call them Air Max 95s. They were always Air Max 95s. I was around when they first came out. I had mates when they first came out in the mid-90s.

13:16And then I think… Basketball shoes. No, they're just Nike Air Max. They've got air. They've got the big bubbles on the bottom of them. Yeah, air in there. And my mate was wearing them. He was around my flat, and it was between the first and second series of the Inbetweeners, I think it was. Yeah. And I was looking at them, and I was going, they're fucking ridiculous. Those shoes are so stupid. There's air bubbles going, like, all the way through the sole. Yeah. Well, that's what I mean. Like, why do you need those? Again, I think it's interesting with men's fashion. So I think that men's fashion is all basically designed to imply that the man has recently been doing a masculine activity.

13:53So you've got work, work wear, boots, jeans even. Steel toe caps. Yeah, steel toe caps. That sort of thing. Even if you're just like an art student in Hoxton, they'll wear steel toe caps. Or the whole hipster look is basically to imply that you've recently been doing some lumberjack. Yeah. Even though you're just making a fucking coffee. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is disgusting. if you're wearing a coffee you should be wearing a fucking apron if you're making coffee you should be forced to wear Y-fronts and a little pinny that's all you need that's what I wear yeah absolutely don't be like oh I'm a I'm a you know I'm a real man yeah so that annoys me but anyway I saw those Air Max 95s and I thought they look really silly I feel like that's the type of thing that Jay would wear and then that became Jay's sort of uniform in a sense yeah and And a lot of people nowadays do – they love Air 95s.

14:55Kids these days, I absolutely love them. Yeah. And I've sort of come around to being like, oh, actually, that is cool. It's because of you? There's a picture of us in costume by the – what's that? The Sydney Opera House. That was the thing I was trying to think of just then. What's that tortoise thing? What's that building? There's a picture of us by the Sydney Opera House. and I've got like a retro, I've got the retro, I think it's the 90s, 90-90 away England jersey on or something like that. Some shorts, white socks, Air Max 95s. You're wearing something, Blake's wearing something. And people are now, I've seen comments, people have used this picture as like a sort of meme and they've been like, they were ahead of their time.

15:39Like this is just how, this is now the, apparently it's the cool way to dress now. I disagree. Yeah, I wouldn't say Simon was I like wearing hairy Yeah, nice little hairy cardigan I wouldn't say that we were I mean Simon I would say was badly dressed But what was embarrassing Is that I thought he was quite well dressed And one of the reasons I Was disappointed when the second series Was commissioned was that they told me that I could Keep the jeans that Simon was wearing And I was like, I'll tell you what French connection Don't mind if I do Yeah, absolutely. And then they said, well, you can't have them back.

16:17Yeah, we need them back now. But it is funny, Virginia. Simon's wardrobe was very top shop. It is top shop. It was top man. It was top man, yeah. It was, you know, early 2000s, top man. It's high street kind of – he's a sort of high street fashion victim. I feel like it was just as that – what do they call it these days? Like throwaway fashion. Those sort of like really cheap – Fast fashion. Fast fashion, yeah. That was sort of just as the time and that was kicking off. Where he could just go to Top Man and get jeans, t-shirt, and some Casio watch. I think it's a...

17:02What am I saying? Don't say yeah. I'm not going to say yeah. For the love of God. I think it's a I think it's a furrow that's ploughed also by the character of Curtin in this country where he's like he's gone down to you know Primark and he's got a load of brands TK Maxx's Curtains yes Curtin yeah I really like that that's sort of all the stuff they didn't sell last season but it does say Calvin Klein on it and it's like 90 pounds reduced to 15 pounds yeah I like the bit my parents were quite hot on that at sort of Christmas time There's a lot of funny stuff coming in. Fashion. Oh, okay, yeah.

17:41Fashion outlets. In yellow, are we? Okay. They are weird, those fashion outlets, because it'd be like, oh, I'll get a pair. Oh, God, they've got a pair of Adidas gazelles here for like 25 pounds. And then you look at them, they go, and you're like, they look a bit off. It's because they're two left feet. Yeah, they're like, what's happened? The line is like me. Yeah, they look a bit, what's going on here? Yeah. But I do think it's... We were trendsetters, man. Yeah. It's cyclical, isn't it? The in-betweeners fashion is coming back. I think we're coming out of 90s. We're just sort of coming out of 90s.

18:18We're coming into noughties. And now we're going to be noughties again. We're coming into noughties. Well, it's like all those photos on old phones, old cameras, old camera style photos. So, you know, the photo you take in about 2001 or something, that look, the kind of photo you get on like an album. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember that one? And it was like, when you were in an indie band in about, like, I don't know, 1999, all you needed to do for your album, Steve, was take, like, the six shittiest photographs you've ever seen in your life and be like, there you go, it's real. Yeah, yeah, man.

18:45And you'd be like, well, yeah, but that's just fucking shit. Just a long exposure photograph of a motorway. Yeah, I know. And all the lights are streaming across the... Yeah, I know. It's great. It is good. Is this good chat? Yeah, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Now, so am I right about genes? Because I'm now thinking that maybe that isn't – were genes originally for people who were in prisons? Is that what genes are for? I don't – I'm going to assume – Or is it – And I don't know whether we want to dedicate a whole episode to this. Yeah, yeah. But I'm going to assume it's got something to do with cowboys and riding horses and things like that.

19:24Yeah, I'm hearing labourers, miners and cowboys are why they're invented because of how stress-proof the – Yeah. Yeah, they were just durable. But I think it's interesting that there isn't, it's quite, it feels like quite a narrow section that is male fashion that does not imply some other activity. Because I do think you've got work, physical work, sport, obviously. Many people who are in sportswear haven't played sport for like five years. They'll still stick a tracksuit on. Yeah. And I do genuinely think like military. like that's another one isn't it it's like the implication is oh you've just caught me i've just i've just come back from the front yeah and actually the section in which and you know you know you were being you know mildly critical of your carligan but but you know at least this it is what it is it is what it is like it's but no yeah men's fashion is for you men's men's fashion is just trying to project a whole thing of what we're not what we're not i'm not a soldier i'm not i don't i don't work with my hands i don't work my hands but i still wear jeans i'm not I wear jeans.

20:31Still wear, I wear jogging bottoms all the time at home. That was the last time I went for a fucking jog. Yeah, no, they're just like, bloody comfortable. And I'll tell you what, the pandemic, that was a, Yeah. Never, that sounded the death knell for many a pair of trousers for me.

20:55The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, What do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. Car crashes injure over a million of us every year. Because we're human. For over a decade, Waymo's been building a driver that's safer.

21:40Statistically, 10 times safer in the cities we serve. Not because humans aren't enough, but because they're everything. Based on over a 94 % reduction in serious injury or worse crash rates, learn more at Waymo.com. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace.

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22:37Joe and James, Facts Up! Can I hit you with my facts? Yes, please. Once again, it's an inevitable sort of panic because I'm so needy, Joe. I'm just sort of desperate to please you. I don't know why that is because... I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Really, I'm not somebody that will benefit you to impress. There's nothing I can do. I'm not getting anything from you, am I? I don't have access to the honours list. No. If that's what you were after. No, you're not part of the academy. I'm not. No. We talked about gestures. Can't get you backstage.

23:16We were talking about gestures, weren't we? And the tapping of the nose. Yes, we were. And from a couple of episodes ago. So we thought today we could look into gestures. Tell you what. For our theme. fucking can of worms mate here we go so i've got a little one for you um and i was thinking about the peace sign that classic two fingers up peace peace and love yeah uh and i i did a little bit i did the quickest amount of research anyone's ever done about anything into it here you go joe in ancient rome raising the index and middle fingers together a gesture similar to today's peace or v for victory sign wasn't peaceful at all it was a warding gesture against the evil eye romans believed that certain looks or curses could bring misfortune and this hand sign was used as a kind of spiritual shield so you'd be like well get away from me oh so i would still say like I'm looking for peace.

24:20I don't need any... I think it's related. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm interested in this evil eye as well. What was that? People are obsessed... Loads of cultures are obsessed with the evil eye. The evil eye. We might talk about that a bit more. Well, I suppose it's the old, if looks could kill. I remember when I went to Turkey once when I was a kid on holiday. They had loads of those little blue sort of ceramic things. And they had like mini ones that you could wear around your neck. And then there was ones that you could display in your house. Yeah. Apparently it was the evil eye. It was to keep evil.

24:48Oh, I see. Interesting. Again, I need to look into that. Do you want to know quite a cute thing that happened to me recently is that we think we've got a mouse again. There's always a fucking mouse coming back. And we have had a – we've got a pumpkin fur. Sure. And it was inside. But we thought – because we're now trying not to leave food out. Yeah. The pumpkin could be food, so we put it outside. But my daughter thought that we'd put the pumpkin outside to scare the mouse away. That's nice. That's really sweet. That is really nice. That is quite sweet. I bet it worked. I'll tell you what. I bet the mouse was going to come back anyway.

25:33Fuck that. Have you seen what's outside there? I'll tell you what works with mice. Don't know if you've heard of it. Nothing. Well, we had a little mouse. No, for Hannah's benefit, I sincerely believe that the mouse is never coming back and it's definitely only one mouse. When I, but they're everywhere mice, isn't they? Like to begin with. Isn't their shit really toxic? I think, I think, I think so. Yeah. They're mouse droppings and stuff. I thought we'd got rid of them. We had a little. It's been raining and they come in to get out of the rain. We had a little mouse problem. I want to get a cat.

26:03Sorry. Yeah. No, that's always a good thing to do. That's the only thing that works. Yeah. That is a good thing to do. We had a mouse problem when I was a kid in Dagenham and our neighbor, our next door neighbor, and he was a chef. we were saying to him oh we think we've got a mouse in the house there we go and he was like obviously he's in the restaurant business he was like I know how to get rid of them this is absolutely brilliant this is the best way he'll get rid of it no problem at all whatsoever and he gave us because we were using mousetraps but they sort of were managing to evade these mousetraps and he said I've got something they can't resist it you will catch the mouse guaranteed and it was a strip of um this really really strong adhesive glue right and it smelt of peanut butter okay and apparently they do like peanut butter yeah and so the problem was right was that with your mouse trap you put a bit of cheese on a on a very delicate mechanism and it snaps them it kills them right snaps their neck and they're dead.

27:13Yeah. This thing, it was so fucking traumatizing. In bed one night, could hear screaming. This mouse was just fucking all stuck on this thing, still alive. And then it was like, well, now what the fuck do we do with it? Yeah. That's horrible. And do you know what? I haven't thought about that until now. And I don't know what happened to it. I never asked. I never asked. It was like, go back to bed. Oh, this was your parents' house. Yeah, yeah. So it was not your responsibility. No, no, it was when I was a kid. Oh, no. And I don't know. This is a terrible thing to say, but honestly, to a certain extent, I just think, who gives a shit?

28:01That is the problem. They do shit all over the place. Well, they do, but I know. If they didn't shit so much. If they went out to have a shit and then came in and, you know, if one of the kids fucking let a biscuit roll under the couch or something and they get rid of it for me then absolutely fine don't have a problem with it I've got more about my fact Joe yeah now obviously that sign don't text me yeah that's what it says here for me that sign and for most people our age Joe obviously means girl power absolutely but there is I then wanted to know about the of flipping that, of the origin of where the sort of that classic British sort of piss off.

28:45Yeah. What have we got Jarvis Cocker doing over there? There he is. And I wanted to find out where that came from. Yeah. So the V sign with palm facing inward. I've got the popular myth, but then the more sort of boring what actually it might be. That's all right. The popular myth is that it originated with English longbowmen at the Battle of Agincourt, 1415. I do wish this was true because I feel like we're quite into our battles, aren't we? I love Agincourt. Yeah, it's great. Was that with the Black Prince? It's once more into the breach, dear friends. Right, yeah. This sceptical, this band of brothers, etc.

29:27According to the story... It's never been misused either by any sort of... That's the good thing about all that Henry the Fifth stuff. You know, like anyone who's quoting that is definitely sound. Yeah, sure. Yeah. According to the story, French captors threatened to cut off the bow drawing fingers of any captured English archers because they were like, the English archers were fucking them up, man. Yeah, yeah. And they did that. Was it Agincourt where they got them to, they sort of retreated. they sort of feigned a retreat and got all their all the horse the cavalry they all got bogged in like it was so boggy so all it was was us English bowmen bosh just taking them out they couldn't go anywhere fucking 1-0 they were threatened to cut off the bow drawing fingers of any captured English archers so they couldn't shoot again again after winning the English supposedly taunted the French by raising those fingers in defiance going, look, we've still got them.

30:32I wish that was true because that's brilliant. Unfortunately, there's no historical evidence for it. Who cares? It can be a backed up fact. The story only appears in print centuries later, likely a piece of romantic Victorian nationalism. It's a shame. Here's a more plausible reason for it. We don't really know. There's a debate. The inward V sign seems to have developed in Britain in the 19th or early 20th century as a rude gesture akin to the middle finger. Okay. Its first clear documented use is in photographs and film from World War II where British soldiers used to mock the enemy in contrast to the V for victory sign, which was palm out.

31:18So it was like, but there's like a famous Churchill. Napoleon was it? Winston Churchill? Yeah. Yeah, he's doing it that way, isn't he? He's doing it that way as well. And also that, the thing about that is that like, I feel like that sort of just said when it emerged, but it hasn't really told me why they were mocking. Like, why should that be mocking particularly? Well, it was sort of a, I guess it was a, it was sort of the anti-V for victory, I suppose. Oh, I see. But wouldn't you be saying, so you're almost just saying like, we have the victory. I think it's whatever. You're suffering from the victory.

31:51I think it's whatever your palm is facing gets, is, You've won. No, is lost. I agree with you with that. No, it was one. Yeah. It's like the difference between the defeat two. I confuse myself so much with that. But you know when a team goes like the recent defeat two or the recent defeat of? Right. I guess it's that. It's like, which way is that greater than less sign facing? Right. I guess. But linguists and anthropologists think it may have evolved from older fist-based insults, like the fig gesture. Don't get me started on the fig gesture. That symbolically suggests a phallic or sexual insult, a nonverbal screw you.

32:32Is it that? Is that the fig gesture? That's what I'm thinking. That's a good one. Yeah. That's one that I wish we had more in the UK because that's good. That's what that obviously means. Get it up, yeah. Yeah. I am. Can I just say? Can I be honest, Joe, quickly before you say anything? that if that... I could have gone too... I could have gone more controversial with my facts this week. Because I was this close to, like... And there's nothing funny about it, Joe, so don't start giggling. But I was this close to sort of the Nazi salute. Fucking hell. And I was just thinking, maybe don't touch it at all.

33:11But I was going to approach it in a very grown-up way. And because a lot of people claim... You know, like you get like Elon - You are sort of doing it now then, aren't you? Sort of. You know, like a lot of people claim like, you know when Elon Musk just does a very casual Nazi salute? Just a casual one. Yeah, just a sort of celebratory Nazi salute, right? And a lot of people go, no, no, no, actually, actually that is a very traditional Roman salute from the Roman times that the Nazis appropriated and it's like the Nazi symbol, right? Like everyone always goes, oh, it's actually an ancient Hindu symbol.

33:50And you sort of have to go, well, that's not the first thing I think of when I see that symbol. I'll be honest with you at this day and age. It's not really the cultural meaning that it has. The cover is more famous than the original. Yeah, yeah. But I don't think there is, I don't think that was a Roman salute. I've also heard, no, that's actually not. It's got nothing to do with Romans at all whatsoever. Romans didn't salute like that. it's just people trying to sort of go hey he's not doing a Nazi salute he's doing the Roman salute you idiot and I thought shall I dig into that and get once and for all our facts on whether it's a Nazi salute or a Roman salute and then I just thought you know what leave it don't even mention it in a podcast because you'll end up giving Lily May a load of work with the edit and so I decided not to bring it up which is nice of you to do very that's why I didn't bring it up Lily May And I wouldn't have to edit any of that out.

34:44Yeah, we can. Yeah, there you go. No, well, I think you didn't. But if you want, and this does make it into the podcast, if you do want us to get to the bottom of the Nazi salute and where it actually came from. They're going to want you to do that. Yeah. I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of the Hitler mustache. That's nuts, isn't it? What the fuck is it? What are we doing? We're going to have to do a Hitler episode. That is insane. And we might have to do a big old Hitler episode. But it is a thing where, so George Orwell wrote, about the fascists. The toothbrush moustache. And he talked about goose-stepping.

35:17And he said, when stormtroopers, and maybe they weren't necessarily called stormtroopers at that point, but he says, when you see fascists goose-stepping, he says, it looks ridiculous. And what they're saying is, we dare you to say that this looks ridiculous. Because if you say it, we'll kick the fucking shit out of you. And it's basically, it's a sort of taunt. Right. And I wonder whether maybe is the moustache in that area? Although I don't really know. Although apparently at the end of the Second World War, Germany was full of blokes who had that moustache. And then when it was obvious they were going to lose, they were all shaving them off.

35:51They felt a bit silly. Yeah, yeah. But it was a real sort of jumping on the bandwagon thing, the Nazi party. Well, imagine it. You know, they were called the – this is a good fact, actually. We could save it if you like. Yeah, no, chuck it in. Well, you know they were the NSDAP, the National Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter's Party. Right. I think that's right. But Germans, the joke. Is that about freedom or something? NSDAP. Arbeits. Work. National Socialist German Workers Party. The Workers, yeah. But the joke when the Nazis were kind of on the up was that it actually stood for, na, such du auch ein Pestchen, which means, ah, do you also want a little job?

36:29So what it was is that people were joining the part. They were like, you're doing it because they're kind of, they're the coming force and you're jumping on the bandwagon and you kind of want a little bit, you want to get free you want a freebie and it reminds me of quite a lot of stuff that's happening in politics where you think people are attaching themselves to a movement that they feel is on the up and it's kind of pure opportunism they just think well this is they're trying to back a winning horse they're trying to back a winning horse people want to be on the side that's winning but also it needs to be on the side that's winning but also on the fringe yes exactly also they're outsiders as well oh the mainstream media don't like this and you're like well the mainstream media hasn't got any fucking money and you've got all the money no but we're still the little guy anyway well that'll all make it in That'll all make it in.

37:08That'll all make it in. That's all fine. If you want us to talk, dedicate a whole episode to Hitler, let us know in the comments. Yep. And if you don't, also let us know. Because otherwise, don't be ambiguous with it. Or if you don't, if you're not bothered. Because we might, we might dedicate a whole season to Hitler, maybe. I don't think we'll do that. No, we won't. Can you imagine though, if like, they're starting, they're starting to come into Berlin. It's 1945. Yeah. They're starting to come into Berlin, but in both sides now. Yeah. Like it is like, the writing's sort of on the wall, right?

37:41And that's when you decide to do the toothbrush and moustache. Everyone will be like, you're a bit late, mate. Yeah. And you'll be like, are we not still doing that? No, they're fucking... Not now. We've got the British and the Americans coming on one side. The Russians are going even quicker. Yeah. Get rid of it. Yeah, not now. Don't do it now. He won't even see it. He's in his bunker. We haven't seen him for days. Yeah. He's downstairs. Him and Ava have just gone downstairs. He's gone down there with a dog. Yeah. Blondie. Blondie. Blondie. Right, let's go to Fact Check. Can do. Fact Check is the part of the podcast where you send in something that feels like a fact and you'd like us to confirm it for you.

38:29We definitely do need to. Me and Joe can confirm it. That gets the official stamp. Yeah. But then we also need you, Lily May, to do the research. You can tell us the mainstream answer. People can always skip over that if you don't like it. You can be fake news. Yeah, I'm fake news. You can be in charge of fake news. Yeah, fine. So we'll be reading a fact or a question that you'd like us to get to the bottom of and we're going to discuss it. We'll have a little ad break and we'll discuss it and then we'll come back and decide whether it is fact or not fact. I believe that's fiction. Joe, have you got this week's fact?

39:09Well, you say that and the answer is sort of. Okay. This week's fact check comes from Holly. She sent us a voice note. Oh, nice. Hi, my name's Holly and I just want to know, does the phrase break your leg come from someone who was famously known for having good luck and then they broke their leg? Holly, thank you very much for that message. And I'll tell you something, good one. Good one. Really good one. Love this area. That is classic. Love this area. That is classic fact up. You've got yourself a phrase that's commonly used in the arts, in theatre especially, where it's considered bad luck to wish someone good luck before they go on stage.

39:56So you do the opposite. So you say the opposite. Go and break your leg. Yeah, go and break your leg. Yes, yes. Yes. Now, let's go for a break because I do need a piss as well. Okay, yeah. Well, break a leg. We'll listen to some adverts and we'll be back and we'll let you know whether this is... What does Holly want to know, actually? Did the phrase break a leg come from someone who famously had the luck? Who had good luck. They broke the leg. First of all, we'll save this. We'll go to a break. Holly, leave it with us. We'll be back with an answer.

40:36The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. Car crashes injure over a million of us every year. Because we're human. For over a decade, Waymo's been building a driver that's safer.

41:21Statistically, 10 times safer in the cities we serve. Not because humans aren't enough. but because they're everything. Based on over a 94 % reduction in serious injury or worse crash rates. Learn more at Waymo.com. Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana.

42:04Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. Joe and James Fact Up! Welcome back to Joe and James Fact Up. We were just fact-checking on behalf of Holly, who wanted to know, did the phrase break a leg come from someone who famously... Is that all right? I don't think anyone's commented at least it's not a yeah I'm doing well with them aren't I I don't know I don't know if it's the problem I know I'm doing well we all say yeah not me not anymore anyway Holly wanted to know did the phrase break a leg come from someone who famously had good luck after breaking their leg now it's definitely I know it's definitely in the acting in a theatre thing.

42:55Break a leg. I'm wondering, Joe. Yeah. First of all, Holly, I don't think it's got anything to do with a bloke that was so lucky that he then broke a leg. I've never heard that before in my life. How do you get a reputation for being really lucky? I guess win the lottery, I suppose. People say I'm lucky. People say I'm lucky too. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. We were in a big hit TV show with our talent. Yeah. No, we were in a big TV show with quite a lot of people looking at me and being like, I could do that. That's my argument. Like when people, if people ever said to me like, well, you haven't done anything since, have you?

43:33Like, I get that. I get that quite a lot. Yeah, I'm like, well, why would I? Why would I have? And like, well, we did the best. Like the Inbetweeners is in Britain, right? And if you want to work in Britain and comedy and you want to work in sitcoms, it doesn't get much bigger than The Inbetweeners. So I've already done that, first of all. And secondly, I've overachieved. fuck yeah like I shouldn't have been allowed to have done a sitcom like the Inbetween I'm not talented enough to be able to do that I know it is yeah like I've done better than what I should do so why are you having a go at me yeah I sort of I feel the same really it is but I've got a feeling right that it's got to do something with Elizabethan times alright I feel like it's got to do with something with Shakespeare because you're not allowed to talk about Macbeth.

44:29Yeah. You have to say the Scottish play. The Scottish play.

44:35And I feel like that's when all these sort of superstitions and weirdo sort of stuff started coming about. I remember when I was doing like a school production of something and we were making a joke how you're not allowed to say Macbeth backstage. So we just kept saying Macbeth. I did this on a trip. We were hilarious, by the way. We were such a bunch of renegades. What a hoot. Yeah. I did this on a trip that I did with a theatre group when I was at university. And as a joke, I would always say, what can possibly go wrong? Right. And on the ferry, on the way back... You should have that on your gravestone.

45:22Yeah. Here lies Joe Thomas. What could possibly go wrong? Isn't it Spike Milligan who's gravestone? Oh, it's fucking brilliant. I told you I was ill. I told you I was ill. It's so good. I mean, it's really funny. Do you know what, right? Once a week, I think about that gravestone and what an amazing joke that is. It's really funny. And I do genuinely think of my gravestone. Yeah. What it will be. And what I want to have put on it. Yeah. And I can't think of anything better than I told you I was ill. Yeah, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. Yeah. Anyway, to go back to my literally less good thing, I was saying what can possibly go wrong.

46:02And then on the ferry on the way back, I fell over on deck and knocked my front two teeth backwards. Nice. So was it a famously lucky person? I'm going to say that's not a fact. Yeah. I don't know what the fact is. Well, I think what we're saying is that it's considered bad luck to wish somebody good luck. So instead of saying good luck, you do a counterintuitive thing and you say, break your leg. It's what they say in Blackadder, where all my historical knowledge has come from. You're exercising demons by saying Beth. Yeah.

46:40Is that a first series? Your hero must roar. No, that's Blackadder III with Hugh Laurie. Yeah, okay. Yeah. As Prince George. I can't remember that bit. Go and check it out, Joe. Yeah. Go and watch it, mate. It's really good. It's good. I'm going to say it's got nothing to do with that and it's more likely got something to do with Elizabethan, Shakespearean times. We don't think it's somebody who really broke a leg. After they were so lucky. After they were famously lucky. Yeah. Okay. So we're saying that's not fact. Yeah, great voice note. Yeah, Holly. Thank you for being a voice note. I'm sorry that I've got...

47:18Well, I mean, you're looking to us to say whether it is fact or not. I'm not going against you. She's not hoping it's true. She just wants answers. I would just like to say thank you, Holly, for being our first voice note. Yeah. And I do encourage them. I love a voice note. Yeah. And great area of intrigue. Yeah, really good. Break a leg. Like where's that fucking come from? Yeah. Absolutely where we're supposed to be. Yeah. But I'm going to say that's not fact up. Okay. And now. Do you agree? I do. No, I know. I agree. I agree. I'm not sure about this lucky person. Yeah. And I'm not sure they broke a leg.

47:55But now we do have to throw it over to Lily May because, and I listened to a couple of episodes where we didn't, and I was like, oh no, I do really want to know. As we were doing it, I was like, this is a really annoying thing to do. So we won't do it again. No, we will get to the bottom of it. We can just decide per episode, I think. See how we go. Oh, I don't know. I think people... Do you want to test them? No, you can't... No, that's like we're getting at the end of a mystery book and they haven't actually worked out what happened. They're like, oh, isn't it better this way? Of course it's not fucking better.

48:25Is there a reason I read to the fucking end? It's the Sicanos. It's the fun episode of The Sopranos. Yeah. People aren't listening for real facts. Oh, I see. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it might be. Yeah. What I've looked at is I think you guys are on the right lines. it looks like there's no definitive answer as to where it originated from so there's a few different kind of theories on where it originated from um it seems that it has german descent is where people think it originated from and people would say break a neck or a leg so that's one of the phrases they're so much fun the germans aren't they they're such a laugh those guys and it's and it's i believe this is comes from like a translation thing so there's a phrase that's Hals und Beinbronk, I think, which is neck and leg.

49:12But that comes from a Yiddish phrase, which is Hals und Brosh, which I imagine sounds similar if you're German or Yiddish. And that actually means success and blessings. So that actually means, you know, I'm wishing you luck. But it sounds similar to breaking and neck. Okay, I see. So basically it's like, excuse me. It's exactly like that. It's wanky very much. basically the correct answer is it's wanky very much it's wanky very much I can go on again there's popular belief saying it's sort of the reverse superstition so people wishing upon you there's others where it's like lots of leg sort of involvements in the theatre so that's the leg line so that being a phrase overusing your legs stomping in the theatre so you might break your leg so there's loads of sort of working theories on where it comes from but one that isn't true is that it comes from There's a famously lucky person.

50:08A lucky bloke that broke a leg. So that's something we know is not true. Yeah. But where the actual origins, and it could be multiple origins coming together, but yeah. That's good. Well, excellent. That is good. And I'll tell you what, right? If you leave a voice note and if you say something like, oh, is this based on a... Because I'm wondering now whether Holly just made that up. Because it sounds nonsense. But... Doesn't matter. But it was great. It's where your mind goes, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. If you just think something's funny, I might add that into the criteria. Because we say interesting.

50:42If something's funny enough, I'm well up for believing it's true. I like the idea of this lucky man. Yeah, this lucky guy. This guy was so lucky. He's so lucky. Oh, something else has happened. Oh, but he's broken a leg. He's broken a leg now. Well. That's it. No. That's it. That's the only bad thing that happens to that guy.

50:59Joe. Yep. Have you got a fact for me? I hope you do. I have a fact for you and I hope is it better than my one I really hope so otherwise this episode is going to struggle well I have good news and bad news okay I do have a fact for you and this is about the origins of the salute and perfect do you know what man I'm already like I've never even thought of where the origins of that come from and why that's a thing it's a funny thing to do it's just It's just everything that we accept is in the military. It's a sign of respect or whatever. Now, what it comes from is actually removing your hat. So still, maybe if you go into church, you might take your hat off.

51:48Yeah, yeah. I think it's quite nice to remove. Do you know what? I do it. If I'm wearing, I rarely wear a hat, but I do have a flat cap and I do have a woolly hat for winters. Yeah, yeah. And I have done a couple of times in my life, if a funeral procession is gone past, I do take my cap off. I think it's a nice thing to do. I think it's a sign of respect. And it's a visible sign of respect, and I see no problem with it. But just for reasons of convenience, when military – Hang on a minute. Who's that Australian politician? Where are they like – they ask him about like – LGBTQ. Yeah, right. And he's like – and he's going, I don't mind, you know.

52:28Let a thousand flowers bloom for all I care. But I'm not going to spend any time on it. He just switches straight away. I'm not going to spend any time on it. I don't know what his name is. He's this Australian politician and he's obsessed with like crocodile attacks apparently. Like he's like really like, he's like, can we stop worrying about. Bobcatter or Bobcater? Yeah. He's like, can we stop worrying about the gays for a second? Because there's a load of crocodiles. There's good hetero guys over here being absolutely drawn apart by crocodiles. I don't think he is homophobic. No, no, sorry.

53:05I think he was literally like, I couldn't give a fuck if you're gay or not or whatever. I'm more worried about people getting eaten by crocodiles. Which, to be fair on him, is a sensible thing that it starts to have. Crocodiles don't discriminate. Imagine that if you ran away from a gay into the jaws of a crocodile. Nightmare. You're an idiot. Nightmare. Yes, you would. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that's our pride episode story. That's the definition of homophobic, isn't it? It is. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, there's a gay man. There's a gay man out there. Oh, no, but there's a crocodile behind me.

53:36I'll take my chance with a crocodile. Yeah. No, you're right. That is actually a very good definition. That's it. Do you know what? In about 50 years' time, people are going to do a similar show to this podcast and they're going to go, where did that? I'd rather take a gay man than a crocodile. Where did that saying come from? Sorry, Joe. So no, well, no, the fact is that as headgear in the military became more and more cumbersome, particularly with the kind of the big bear skins, you wouldn't take it off. So instead you'd just touch it, you'd tip it. Yeah. And then that then became even more kind of condensed into just kind of touching the side of your head like that.

54:21And that was the sign of respect. So it's a gesture. It's a gesture. As if you're taking it off. Exactly. And I think, didn't we have a similar thing about clinking glasses or something as well? It's about poison or something like that. About poison, yeah. Like a bit, it's to show that they're not poisoned. So a bit splashes. I mean, they talk about that on the Ricky Gervais show. They do do, yeah. And so when I said we, I'm literally confusing us with another show. This is what I'm talking about, yeah. Yeah, I know. I don't know. I don't know which are my own thoughts and which aren't anymore.

54:51I don't know where my brain starts and Carl Pilkington stops. Yeah, I feel the same, really. But that's the origin of that. That's good, yeah. I do have a lot of... I have an immense respect for anyone in the military. Yeah, me too. Because I always think... This might be fucking terrifying. I just think they're... First things first, that must be fucking horrible. I just think... Like, you might get killed. Yeah, absolutely. I just think they are the complete opposite of me. Yeah, I agree. I am a lazy, uneducated coward, right? So if you're like, if you work hard. I'm not allowed to say yeah, but.

55:29And you know things and you're brave. Like, you've got my respect. Straight away. Absolutely instantly. I will say, though, those bear hat things are stupid. There is some stupid stuff, yeah. Yeah. They're silly. Yeah. Why are they wearing them? Yeah. Genuinely, why? Yeah. I don't like it. And it's good when they have to stand still and they're not allowed to make a face and people can go up to them and stuff. People do, yeah. Yeah. I don't like that. I don't appreciate that, actually. I don't think they should be being teased. You know when they do the changing of the guard or whatever at Buckingham Palace and there's some idiot tourist in the way?

56:04Yeah. And so they sort of clatter through some toddler. Yeah. Because they can't move. They're not allowed to move. Yeah. But I do just think like, get out of the way. Yeah. I know. They've got a difficult job. The least you could do is get out of their way. Don't tease them. Yeah.

56:22Right, Joe, let's wrap up. What have we learnt today? We have learnt that the phrase break a leg definitely wasn't about some lucky bloke that broke a leg was. Lawrence Luck. Yeah. Oh, yeah, what's happened? Oh, no. He's one of good fortunes ended. We've got a patient here. He's just broken his leg. What's his name? Joey Luck. We know that's not true. We've learnt that the V for victory sign comes from ancient Rome. Yes. And I am one of those men. Apparently there's men that think about Rome at least once a day. I am one of those guys. I don't know what. I also have to say, I'm not sure why that's necessarily a bad thing.

57:03I don't know. I'd say without further information, if someone's thinking about Rome, I'd say that's just neutral information. I think it's just a sort of like, I think it's just you're a typical idiot bloke. we've also learned that the salute originated from when people in the military would actually physically remove their caps in a sort of mark of respect. Yep. So, good episode I would say, Joe. I think so. Can I also just throw in yeah, yes count massively down I think. We'll wait for the I don't even know. Wait for the want I won't count but maybe Emma will count. Yeah, yeah. If we could get the data in.

57:42Let us know in the comments your year count and see if anyone see if anyone comes up with different numbers and if you can do a comparison of years against expected years that would be good because I think maybe the average year count will be down we hope that you've learned something or had a nice time at least we'll be back next week armed with more facts chats and removed caps and don't forget that you can get in touch with us if you'd like us to fact check something that feels true to you or whatever nonsense message that you want to get to us Our email is hello at joeandjamespod.com. Our WhatsApp number is 07822 034 330.

58:19And our social media. You can message us on social media, right? Yep. At joeandjamespod. And head to the podcast description if you've already forgotten those details. That's a podcast episode for you. Hope you liked it because that's all you're getting. Bye. Bye. Joe and James Facts Up.

58:45Car crashes injure over a million of us every year because we're human. For over a decade, Waymo's been building a driver that's safer. Statistically, 10 times safer in the cities we serve. Not because humans aren't enough, but because they're everything. Based on over a 94 % reduction in serious injury or worse crash rates. Learn more at Waymo.com. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success.

59:33Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. You want to believe you're safe in the heartland, and it just changed. On the Murder in the Heartland podcast from ID, we'll examine true stories that happened in a town a lot like yours. I regret not telling the police. I knew who did it. I wanted the person to pay for what they had done to her. There was a sense of bloodthirst.

1:00:13We have to get revenge. Listen to Murder in the Heartland, wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com