Building NEOM: Nicola Elliott on £45M Turnover, 150 Products & Self-Funding vs Investment

0:09A light bulb moment launches your business, but consistent habits power it every day after. Today's episode is powered by Starling. Whether you're side hustling or scaling, Starling believes that with the right mindset and tools, anybody can be good with money. It's not about complex number wrangling or losing days to admin. is creating a smart system of financial habits that can give you active control and build your confidence so that you can focus on being a founder, not the finance team. Search Starling Business to find out more about their monthly fee-free business account. Well, I'm so pleased that you're here today.

0:45I've been such a fan of the brand from the outside for such a long time. And I kind of, I feel so fortunate that I get to this podcast and get to just unpick the why and how and you know really deep dive into it so thank you for for coming in and having a couple with me so we can discuss everything I mean 2005 seems like a very very long time ago when but when I think of how Neom has stayed so relevant and has moved through different periods of time it almost doesn't feel possible that that's when it all started there was sort of a side of the industry that I suppose in 2005 that we didn't discuss and when we think of sort of products and branding and how that looks well-being really wasn't a focus and that wasn't front and center then and this all sort of started because of you and how you were feeling at that time so what did life actually look like for you then well I'll just start with saying well-being really wasn't a word in 2005 it's funny it's hard for you to kind of get yeah go back and remember and you'll have been a lot younger than me then I'm trying to think how old I was that I'm so bad at this you know when you're actually I'm like what did I do in 2005 yeah I was in the Saturdays I was prancing around on stage it wasn't a word so you know we we were too early which is a kind of really interesting business point which I'll come back to but we were too early to that movement And I think taking something on where you're trying to educate people to want a movement and then introduce a product is maybe not something I'd do again for many different reasons.

2:27But, you know, the good side of that is obviously your first to market. Yeah, it's kind of a weird juxtaposition of the whole. Absolutely. But it started through, as you say, my own personal story. So I was a journalist for years and I loved that life. I mean, this is back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I did Celebrity. So I was on a plane doing London, New York, LA. And again, this was way before HR would have said, you can't work X amount of hours. When you're almost protecting you. Exactly. I mean, the world is different in every single way. And so much as I loved that job and it was brilliant and fun, I remember it was 23, 24, 25.

3:10you know I was just working crazy hours and flying all over the place and again wellness isn't a word no one went to a gym there was one gym like in north London that was really grotty I mean there was no health food shops there was just nothing you're so right it's like I'm picking your brain to remember that there was a time that literally we literally didn't care no we didn't care at all you know it was Smirnoff Ice and Marlborough Ives that was the vibe right right exactly so but i started with really bad anxiety then now anxiety wasn't a word either of course anxiety was you were anxious it wasn't so when you're having a panic attack back in 2005 it's like having a funny turn what on earth's going on my mum said to me you're just not looking after yourself you don't see the light of day you work all the hours god sends you live off pasta pesto you know and you've got to look after yourself and this went on for quite a while and nothing traumatic had happened and I was just burning the candle at both ends look I don't regret that in many ways because it was just good fun and I was fun period yeah exactly yeah but really he wasn't looking after you yes it was a point where I think when you know a lot of people go through and you go oh I kind of need to grow up a bit here and I need to like you know maybe buy the odd carrot and yeah maybe get us a few greens in but do you now we really like you say that the language is really sort of I mean it's taken a whole different meaning since then right and now we discuss the idea of burnout and how that looks and knowing that I always remember I'm saying to me you're burning the candle at both ends and I'd be like okay sure peace I'm out um but now we really sort of we're really aware and there's a lot more awareness to the point where actually this is a whole other conversation like I'll talk to my niece and I'm like like go to the club like why are you trying to be this like Pilates matcha wellness queen I'm like no we're all doing that because we've got to the point where I need to now I've got three kids I need to do something for me like why are you not yeah exactly tequila shots and living your best life you know I feel like it's really sort of turned on its head was there a specific moment that you realize obviously like you know your mum will always be that reminder and but we sort of become conditioned to working at a certain pace and life just moving really fast was there a moment for you that you sort of realized okay this lifestyle isn't sustainable for me well I think it was the panic attacks I remember sort of going back to Yorkshire one weekend and just being like almost kind of mute and then I actually enrolled in like a again old word macrobiotic cookery class I thought I'm really that's just eating whole foods I thought this is kind of interesting and I went to um an old I can't remember the name of it now but it certainly wasn't whole foods sort of whole foods health shop on my road and upper street and it was you know as they all were at that point 80 nuts and a few raisins and small bananas in a basket but at the back of the store was some essential oils i thought i'm gonna buy a few of these and i'm gonna get myself a little book i'm gonna create myself some blends this is my new life now i cook macrobiotic and i go for a walk each day and i'm gonna create these little blends and my for my flatmate and i would go home and create us little blends dependent on how we we'd felt during the day this yeah i bought but one book and tried to teach myself and i did love it and i remember thinking every friend around me seems to suffer from either poor sleep or getting to sleep not being able to get to sleep or poor sleep when they were asleep stress or the ramifications of it lack of energy or mood i remember thinking this sort of you know back in the day with clinique there was sort of dry skin oily skin yes yeah um spotty skin was it what was it yeah i remember three different things i thought Well, God, you know, people feel one of these four sort of ways.

7:10And I'm doing it for my boyfriend at the time, these little potions. And I'm doing it for my different friends. And can you create something for, you know, the guys on the football team? You know, they need more energy to go out clubbing on a Saturday night when they've been playing football. Yes, yes, I create these ones. And could you do it for, you know, this friend of mine who's suffering and she's got a hormonal imbalance? She's having trouble with periods. Yes, I can do this one. And I love doing these in a tiny bathroom. It was as big as this table. Doing these little blends. and that kind of was the was the seed of the idea for neon was what if you could create a beauty wasn't beauty but that was the closest kind of category brand that a bit like the Clinique sort of three different skin types worked on how you felt and that would be powered through these natural blends which had to smell lovely because working in magazines I was very aware of I didn't want it to be a potion yes and essential oils can be really clunky and um quite basic and not very sophisticated so it had to sort of stand up against you know the synthetic kind of counterparts out there but of course we had to use 100 natural fragrances because they were the the reason that the well-being benefit was going to work so i had to use the essential oils so that was kind of the idea was the inception of it and then i wanted to create what we've got now but we had no money so we were like oh right okay can't do the bath oils and the you know the magnesium body butters and the xyz and actually we found out this fact that 97 of candles which was going to be one of the things in the range were made of paraffin wax and as you breathe in that paraffin wax obviously that's a crude oil derivative like oh that's a story that sort of needs changing that's a product that needs definitely modernizing in some way.

8:56And then wouldn't it be nice if you could come home and you could burn this and as you breathe it in, it works and the treatment sort of helps. And so that was sort of the idea around the candle. Obviously, that is what the candle is now. But that's why we started with that, because we felt that there was a really key story that needed changing in that category that would be a bit easier for us to tell than, you know, body lotion or something. Yes, yes. And I suppose at the time, you know, with all things considered. Yes. That's what you felt that you could bring to the market like nobody else.

9:30Yes. And I suppose afford to do. Yes. So let's talk about this because you're sensing the appetite, right? I suppose without even knowing you're making these blends for everybody, for the football team, for the friends and so on and so forth. So you know that people are liking what you're doing. And it's, I suppose, also a passion project for you. Something that you're getting a real sense of. value from what's that light bulb that goes off in your mind that says okay this could really be a business yeah and how did you feel sort of did you feel well versed in that space to be able to bring this to life at that time like coming from that journalistic background and traveling the world and doing your thing did you feel or is it something that you sort of did naively and it and And it worked out.

10:17And, you know, you figured it out as you went along. Well, I had confidence in myself that I could tell a story well because I was a journalist. And then again, pre-social media, you lived and died by like your cover lines. So, you know, you would understand that, I don't know, let's say 365 handbags under£100 does better as a cover line than 24 handbags under£200. I'm making it up, right? So you're A-B testing, I suppose, in the way that you would. So I'm kind of aware all the time of what's working and what's not working and what women like. I've always been good at that, something between words and pictures and understanding women.

11:00So I rated myself on that. I couldn't add up and I couldn't do other bits and pieces. But I always realised you're not going to be good at everything. So I came from quite an entrepreneurial background. my dad had a car yard in uh in Yorkshire and so you know he was very good at sort of saying just go for it you will only know one thing give me that confidence to find the other skill sets and then just really major on what I knew and have to feel my way as we went along so I think I was quite lucky that I didn't had an inbuilt belief yes one really good skill would be enough to get me going I also only did it one day a week you know half of it from the toilets in my old job so I never would have jumped before there was green lights the thing was going to work such good advice because we you know our listeners to the podcast will you know send us lots of questions and when do I know is a good time to press go on what it is that I want to do I want to leave my job.

12:04I want to do this, but I have a mortgage and I have. What would your advice be? Like there's a lot of advice. They always say, look, it's just my opinion. You know, take it or leave it. This advice I'm like, studious on. You do not leave a solid job that's paying your mortgage until you've got a really decent green light or three. And that has to be that there is a market there for it. And that has to be through sales. It has to be. I mean if you've got loads of money and loads of investment or you're at a stage in your life it doesn't matter if you pay the mortgage okay that's a different scenario but that's very few and far between yeah I imagine so I imagine so and even then I still would say you know you want you want that reassurance that the customer is going to buy into the product you've got something I also don't think it needs to be perfect I think you absolutely want to sort of start and then when it's live you will iterate the product of course because you can't know from your own bedroom that this thing's perfect you can't it has to get out there and live and then you are they didn't really understand that strap line or that name works better than that it has to do that yes however it does also have to resonate enough that you get that confidence from your market and for us we went to a trade show and we got about 30 independent accounts that opened up with us little kind of small mom-and-pop department stores that put in opening orders now you never know if they're going to come back and order again but that was enough for me I remember at the at the trade show we had tiny the tiniest little booth and we had a long line of people that had little independent stores coming and they're interested in the story and a lot of them not all of them placed the order so that was enough for me to go they know because they're buying other bits and bobs for their stores they're interested and a lot of them have gone far enough to place the order that for me was my green that was your green light yeah what was your sort of first step because like you say you you knew that you were incredible when it came to the blends and the understanding and the storytelling which is for every single brand is so so key and so important where did you feel like you needed help and where did you feel like you needed to lean on other people to bring the actual business and Neom as we know to life well I had a business partner um and he was going to do the finance and the operations so I left that to him perfection I was doing the brand and the sales so So I would go out in my car and do like, well, actually, before I even went out in the car, when I was still working at Glamour, we had a rule that if we sold five products or less, I had to still take the products on the bus.

14:59Right. This is brilliant. Love this. But if I sold five products because the candles are a kilo more, I was allowed to expense taxi because that was too heavy for me to carry. Yeah, yeah. I mean, very fair. I thought it was fair but it's also quite a nice little marker isn't it like oh damn I'm on the bus today oh guess what I've got a taxi that's brilliant so you had someone that you could lead on and I suppose I mean for me I've always I've always been in the same vein where I've you know really relied on my team and my partner for the kind of back end for the operations for the finances because that is I'm not yeah I won't pretend for a second that's my strong suit I've I really try even now.

15:43Like I'm like, I want to be in and I'm in the conversations. I'm in the rooms. I'm in the meetings. But it isn't, I don't add much value. I'm there to sort of be across it all. That's fair. But for me, branding, product, that is, I know that's my skill set. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think there's a real, actually I found it more as the business has grown. You've got to not, you've got to be really, really clear on what you can do and what you can't do. And I think it annoys me if you're in a big meeting and everyone wants to share an opinion on every single element. It's like, if you don't know the best in the room, really rather you just shut up.

16:25I'm so with you. Do you know what I mean? It's so true. And I think it's really leaving your ego at the door and knowing that you can't add value here. And I know that I can't add value over there. So let's just. 100%. if you want an opinion on how to do the podcast i'll give you an opinion but i'm not going to know as well as you so the most help i can be is to just wind my neck in and allow you some time to do what you can do yeah i find that's really fascinating that again as the business has grown bigger people quite often want to justify their role or position sometimes exactly um i I think I've always been quite good because I know I am really good at that and that.

17:06I'm all right at that. I'm pretty shit at that and that. Yes. So that's always been quite helpful. And again, as it's grown, obviously it evolves, it changes. We now have a CEO who knows like for every one fact I bring to her, she's like, yeah, here's nine more. Do you know what I mean? So now I understand that. Marketing directors and product directors and all. you know they're all way better than I am so I think as it's grown being able to sort of realize again what what box to put yourself a bit is actually then becomes the skill yes and that's yes to and to enable the business to grow and flourish in the right way you have to put yourself in a little box even though that you're passionate about all of it you've got to know where your strengths I suppose yes you know to their to their optimum um I want to talk about building a category before it existed because I think this is I mean it's so brilliant I mean I spoke to Vivian Wong about this actually with Little Moons like no one there wasn't yeah she also brought this category she was another too wasn't she she was another crazy girl I love a crazy girl um you really did spot a gap in the market because you found what was really working for you personally for your friendship group and so on and so forth how was that received because it's always a great idea that you think wow this is real innovation which is exciting and this is gonna there's nothing like us this is our usp but if the actual category itself isn't ready for the usp it's a very strange position to be in and talk us through that sort of period of time yeah i mean i think it comes with more cons than pros that's so interesting i'm honest with you um because people have got less time they are less interested than you ever think they are and i think this is where a lot of founders go wrong people try and tell me a story and i think i i just i just don't care we've got less um yeah i've got less time to engage in that story you having to sell to me why I need this thing then what it is and then how it works and then extract the money it's like oh you know I think that's a hard thing as opposed to we just said we love this table we all know we love a coffee table if you could do the most stylish coffee tables in a decent price yes great that's a much easier way people will always know they need that product they can see what it is they get the price there's a gap so I would always say I think on balance it's been harder to do it the way that I did it and we I thought that people would be more interested in wellness and natural beauty products and the natural fragrances and the way that we could help in that way because the food market had revolutionized just before us and people were very interested in what they're putting in their bodies so i thought beauty is going to follow suit very quickly and actually it took a lot longer to follow so i think really probably because most of beauty is owned by big companies that aren't using naturals they're certainly not using natural fragrances naturals are a nightmare to use in beauty products for many ways in terms of formulating etc etc so i think that was the reason why but it took a lot longer for the beauty world to catch on right and And so I think we were ahead of ourselves.

20:46Having said that, what I do think is good, sometimes when you're inventing something that's new, you are inventing it, inventing is the wrong word, you are bringing it to market because it's just a really, really good idea. And forget the word wellness or wellbeing or whatever, which we, of course, fitted very naturally into that category and were spearheading at the front of it when it eventually was understood and recognised and started growing. we were creating blends that were going to help you with modern malaises that everyone was feeling by the way they were feeling them 20 years ago 30 years ago 40 years ago so although we didn't have the right word or it fit in the right situation people still understood the concept of if you burn this candle and it fills and the reason we have three weeks is because it was going to fill an average size room a bit like this with enough fragrance after half an hour as you breathe it in the treatment would start working that wasn't ever going to be a fashion that was always going to be a product that people needed yes and actually I sold them originally to um the ladies on receptions at the spas that we sold it because my kind of again it wasn't a term then the customer mindset but my customer mindset sort of thought or theory was that when you go for a massage or a treatment and you've paid 70 80 90 pound to be de-stressed when you're leaving if the lady says oh my gosh you must try one of these you can keep this feeling going at home yes they would go oh that makes sense and by the way you know the price of that is less than i've just paid for my massage and i even went as far as saying to them you know you they can get 20 treatments out of this candle or something yes so that was sort of what i was thinking so you know that was still needed People were still going for those treatments, albeit in a different way, in spas, etc.

22:38So, yes, category and being early to it and having to explain something very new, difficult, difficult, difficult. However, again, if you start with something that the raw need, if you like, is something that's just a human truth, then I think, and we've never been fashion or trend led in that way. it's always been something that sort of is needed for men women everyone different ages so it kind of it worked in that way yeah does that make sense yeah yeah yeah were there any when when it sort of came to retailers etc were was there something that you sort of kept but in your head against was there something that kept coming up what was always what what was that still have it okay so when we go to speak to retailers they love the niam story it's just changing now she's changing in america they're more receptive to it so they'll generally listen to the niam story we're a wellness brand we're about the four well being need states we do that 300 natural fragrance they go that's lovely that's lovely okay but do you want to speak to the beauty buyer or do you speak to the home buyer yeah do you know what that's so interesting yeah that's and i know that from yeah you know selling toiletries and even with what we do that we have a range for expected mums but we have baby they're obviously all different buyers if I want to then introduce an SPF for children that has to then go and sit with the sun care team and it's the constant idea of tying it all in so what so where where do you place when you talk to a buyer in retail it's changed as time's gone on so beauty used to be much more color makeup and skincare face um body has become something that they're more interested in neon has then become a big brand so actually they realize that they need to try and work a little bit with what we've got as well yeah um so body has become more candle sits sometimes in home with reed diffusers but then we can have it also in body nice so we can do that a bit yeah nice but you don't really want that disparate thing going on too much you don't want to be at other ends of the shop it's not yeah it's not ideal and then home of course then for most people for most stores of course can transcend homewares it can you know yeah apparel or whatever else it is so it's still difficult but then i'm also always a bit of a fan in business of thinking it's really helpful when the table's got 100 legs because it's kind of an insurance yes so my biggest problems sometimes have given me really decent opportunities so yes that's not ideal it would have been easier if we were you know a makeup brand that was just about lipstick and we went into the beauty and you know where you're sat exactly yeah exactly however that sink will sink or swim by how it does in that area yes and in that category exactly yeah whereas for us we have sort of had the opportunity to let the body shine let the candles shine let that yes exactly and then as the brand has grown and it's become something they know that they can make money off then as i say they've been a bit more accommodating to do something a bit more original with us yeah but again i suppose this is just life isn't it it's always been a bit the pro of having something unique is it's unique the con of having something unique is it's too unique yes and is that like i said before that juxtaposition of like great but also we're having to constantly educate along the way like it doesn't just sort of slot in exactly which is is exactly what makes it magic right but you choose your hard though don't you yeah yeah Fair, fair, very, very fair.

26:32We talk a lot on this show about the unfiltered reality of founder life. The late nights, wrong turns, obviously the shiny wins too. But we talk less about the unsexier day-to-day stuff that actually keeps the wheels turning. In other words, the endless financial admin that can end up disrupting the craft and the creativity that led you to actually launch in the first place. So today's episode is powered by Starling who believe that the right mindset and tools can change all that. They've built a powerful business account that can help you build confidence boosting habits, create vital headspace and shed the dead weight so you can focus on your next move.

27:11All with no monthly fees, we love that. There are some features founders are really loving like spaces where you can separate all your different expenses from your main account. There's also Bills Manager, which keeps bills like tax or office rent in a protected space and pays them automatically on the same day. So that's one thing ticked off of the to-do list. Starling Accounting is a bit of a game changer too. It handles bookkeeping and making tax digital or from your bank. Just search Starling Business to find out more. I want to talk about scaling. Yeah. because I mean as I said 2005 this I mean and I can imagine now if the conversation's still a sort of what buyer does this sit with yeah I mean you're in at this fortunate position that you're that far in now that people know Neon when they want to buy it regardless so they'll make it work for you but still it's a a strange position nearly 20 oh my god my math isn't great how how long 21 21 wow yeah there we go oh my gosh i'm 110 my gosh literally 21 years i know and you're saying that is incredible good for you today um starts with five candles has become a business with more than 100 just reading my notes here 150 products around 150 employees yeah just under i think yeah um and approximately approximately 45 million in annual turnover i mean it's this is quite something this really is the story of growth what i love is it's solid steady growth yes we talk about this age where you know we just we discussed before before we were recording that it's founder-led content you're hearing about every win you're hearing about this these really spiky moments for businesses that we're acting off of the back of virality, et cetera, et cetera.

29:08I love a story of steady growth. I do. I love the idea of, you know, stumbling across a category, really redefining it. Well, you're, you know, you're sort of setting the pace of it. How important has that steady growth been when you're scaling something to that extent? um so many answers to that I think um I think we always wanted something we were ambitious for the brand right from day one I'll be honest I always thought we would be a good side I didn't do this to be a side hustle and I think that was now people go did you know it's gonna be this big And I'm like, yeah, of course, that's what we set out to do.

29:55And so I think knowing where we wanted to get it to and the decisions that we made, therefore, along the way, things that we would be maybe more cautious about versus things that we would be a bit more spiky with. Right. You know, we're always took into consideration. We didn't want something that was going to be here today and gone tomorrow. There was a real, there was a consideration. around that growth because it was not always about that year's growth or the next year it was about where we were going sort of longer term so I think that's that sort of is one answer well I'm saying how how steady the growth's been for you obviously like you've had your milestones and the targets and things like you say this was yes it's incredible how far the business has come but this was really a strategy this is what you you know you knew you wanted I spoke to the founder of Never fully dressed lucy aylin she was saying for her again she's had real steady growth and for her anything spiky in the business actually isn't good because it can yeah i think that's fair in the back end it actually is problematic i think also i've been around for so many different trends yeah and by the way i don't mean what you see in terms of a color or an aesthetic or whatever else i mean also trends when the ddc brand was born um we're now having a moment where everyone's going back to wholesale you know when it was important to do shops when you were mad to do shops I've seen all of these things go up and down and I think when you've lived through all of that you realize that it's quite risky to nail yourself to one mass yes because you see people do that and many many times doesn't happen so much actually to me anymore but I used to see someone launch oh my god it's quite a good idea that and they're or they maybe maybe they're you know close to us or maybe they've copied us or they've done it in a slightly different way and i'm kind of i love that they've done that but they've done it in bright blue or something like that and then they really put their foot down on i don't know um acquiring customers really really heavily and and growing the brand oh my goodness that's why did we not do why have we not done And that why would you not be more ballsy in that area?

32:12And then guess what? Yeah. They've fallen. And so in a lot of cases, when someone has kind of come hot off the blocks and grown very quickly, what's gone up has had to come down. Yeah. And I think I've seen that a lot and it kind of put me off, if I'm honest with you. And I come back to always wanted that table with a hundred legs. I think I'm ambitious but I also think I am cautious you know I did this whilst also raising two children I didn't have any other money coming in I didn't have a you know family money or a rich husband or anything like that I had to still pay for things and so it was important that we didn't bet the farm when it came to some crazy gross idea and again maybe we would have thought that a bit in the early stages but we couldn't afford to and then when we started seeing it we were too scared to and then we kind of got into the third bucket where we were like oh my god look at all those casualties and I think unfortunately you still see now on Instagram like our version of Instagram is probably not the super skinny beautiful it's the woman who has launched something and suddenly she's doing you know 50 million in two years or three years or something that's our kind of yes yeah right yes and and and i still think that sometimes of course you always do my gosh that's amazing and well done her and everything but for every one of those who a does that and then b sticks around by the way i'm not even saying continues growing just sticks around there's hundreds of people who are scaling at a slower pace something that really is generating cash yeah and is supporting a family yeah it's profitable etc etc and then the other thing i would say is i go and do speeches so often young female founders will ask me about raising money and i'm like why do you want to raise money it's always my and they're like because we want to grow it and i'm like yeah but okay that's fine i'm not saying you shouldn't that but do you want 100 of a business worth x or do you want 50 of a business worth y and then they're generally like oh my ego generally will sort of push them slightly towards the latter yeah which i understand but then i'm like okay so i'm going to paint two scenarios for you here scenario a business is worth half but you totally own it you do what you want you you know have absolute autonomy you only work with people scenario b you don't have the control you have to work with people that maybe you wouldn't have chosen it you're challenged on decision making etc etc and actually the net cash that comes out of them is exactly the same yes oh do you know what that is such good advice and it's such a interesting point to flag because we're sort of in that world that it is it's such a big conversation and we know how sort of underfunded women are in that space and the disparity between male and female when it when it comes to raising and we're fully aware of that but I think there's so much conversation about raising that women really feel like they need to be out there and bossing and raising this money and this capital where actually, like you say, it's almost a bit headline driven, like I've raised because now it's worth X and it's great and it's fabulous.

35:42But when you actually think of the founder in that situation and the sort of quality of life, it's really important to sort of... Definitely. It's fascinating that you have people who, you know, make these really bold moves and work crazy hours and put all the heart and soul into it. And then they don't ask themselves some very basic life questions. And to a younger woman, I'm always asking, why are you doing this? What cash do you want to make? What lifestyle do you want? Are you happy working with other people? Because generally, if you're entrepreneurial, I imagine there's two things that come with it.

36:21One, you want to make some cash. And two, you want to build something for yourself because you don't want to fit into another team. you want to run the team generally they're the two reasons why you start a business so right so I really encourage people to look at those two things and really build up a picture of what that life's going to look like as opposed to you know going and raising all this money and well done but who are you raising that for and what does your life look like and what cash are you going to get at the end of it and how do you want to feel as a founder living that life as well that's it's a really really important bit of advice and something really really important to think about You touched on raising a family whilst raising a business at the same time.

37:05How was that? How old are your children now? 16 and 18. Right. How was that in those sort of younger years? Horrific. I'm always, I just think there's always that saying, isn't there, that we're supposed to sort of raise a family that we haven't got a business and run a business that we haven't got a family. And there's a lot of pressure that society and actually that we put on ourselves to make everything happen. what when you look back on I mean they're still your babies they're still 16 and 18 but when you look at that sort of period of life when it's like rushing to the school play and making sure they I don't know make dance practice on time and that they're okay and their needs are met how is that I'm very much in these streets at the minute these top streets how was that period of time for you um look none of this is a none of this is a playbook let me be clear but I just gave up myself during that time I didn't meet friends I didn't go to the gym put on weight just we didn't have a lot of money really really hard and I you know that's not very inspiring thing no it's real yeah my ex-husband was a teacher so he had time to help with the children of course but we I still did it three days a week a lot of the time had the children the other two days dropped them off put the picnic from school um and I think there's I think there's an old like Victoria Beckham saying that's like you can have the business have the family the friends there's three or have your own life you've picked two of them you can't have all three and I and I gave up I gave up my life and when I look back now it's kind of a bit sad for that but I don't know how I would have fitted it in yeah so I did manage to do the mothering to a way that when I look back I am proud of how much I gave them okay I didn't do every stupid bake sale or whatever um but a lot of working mums are ditching that now um but I was there every play and every drop off and every pit and all that sort of stuff.

39:13And I did have support, but we didn't have a nanny or anything like that. And I also managed to run the business. But, you know, that might have been partly as well why the business grew a little bit slower. It was important for me to keep a salary. Yes, yes. You know, I used to come down to London very early on a Monday morning, like get up at five, come down, stay on a Monday night on a friend's sofa, go back on a Tuesday to put them to do bedtime. So they only really missed me on the Monday night. Right. and yeah, it was just a really, really, really hard time, but I was so into it then, I couldn't get out of it.

39:50I remember my grandma at the time saying to me, do you think you should go back to magazines? I was like, bloody hell, I can't now. I'm in. I'm in. I'm like four years in. Exactly. So I don't know if there's much to learn from that for people, and I feel a bit bad. It's quite an off-putting part of the story. I think what we can learn from it is the fact that knowing that we always assume everyone's got everything together and like definitely didn't nobody has and i think it's really like there's always a sacrifice and like you say whether that's and along the way there has to be because by being here by being there we're missing out on something right like if yeah if we was at home at the minute making cakes and you know taking them to monkey music we would you know we would there be something at work that was missing and if we were here and there's always it's a give and take right and there's always something that's kind of falling down and then you're great at something else but I think it's you have to sacrifice sacrifice something and for you in that period of time it was yourself like you say your business you know had your attention your children had your attention but maybe you didn't the other thing I think as well is to remember that everything's only a phase yes everything's temporary exactly and that's not the case now like you know they don't want anything to do with me so then they just they're doing their own thing and living their own life so it does all change so it's it moves on and and that's maybe not the comfort that you necessarily want at the time but it is just a period yes you're so right and also I think when people always say to me how do you do it all I'm like I genuinely know no different yeah I had kids and had a business and it's all sort of happened at the same time for me so I don't have anything to compare it to I'm mum first always if they need me I will be there in a heartbeat but I don't this is how I've mummed well and you also enjoy it I think that's the other thing when you know I wouldn't I wouldn't start a business that I didn't enjoy.

41:58It's also my, there's a group of friends there. There's a tribe of way of thinking. There's a creative union between everyone. It's way more than work. And so I think that I'm always on. It's a big part of your identity. Exactly, exactly. So it's work, but it's also, almost comes into hobby sort of zones as well. Exactly. So I think that's where you have to choose something and know it's going to be a marathon and are you going to still enjoy it or be it you know there's obviously difficult times within it but can this be something that you can that's a really important fruitful part of your life that ticks many many boxes yes yeah and that then allows you again I've been to I've cried with the girls at work many many times and vice versa so they're my crew in in many ways so i think it's yeah it's got to feed your soul yeah in ways more than it would be far too hard for it to be that difficult and you not get be a slave to it and yeah exactly that yeah you need to juice the juice is very very very important um when it comes to i want to talk a little bit about brand identity yeah i think that's what when i think of neom that's something that you've done incredibly well and I find it so interesting that it starts with these blends and in that you know way that you're doing it from your bathroom and it's all very sort of insular before you bring it to the world how do you when you grow look when you grow and you sort of have scaled in the way that you then have how do you protect the brand's identity yeah when it starts as something so small and it feels like a bit of a sort of secret have you tried this neon thing well I've been using this and I've had this candle and this is great how do you keep that same messaging when it's focused on well-being and it really has that personal relationship with the consumer right how do you keep that alive when it's scaled in the way that it has well I think we're very lucky that we've got a very rich story and that has actually also been challenging at times because sometimes if you've got a brand that's got a very simple story i think it's easier for you to grow it faster if it's again we keep referring to the coffee table because it's such a beautiful coffee table if it's just you know we do beautiful coffee tables fine off it goes it can go to distributors it's a simple thing to explain it's a simple thing for the customer to understand it's a simple thing to put on the shop window etc etc our story is not that simple um which is great because it's very rich and it's very meaningful and i think people really love it and they really resonate within it almost feels like a person neil it's like a it's like your you know sort of pulled together friend that you know says come on sit down have a cup of tea and let's talk about you know why you're so stressed at the moment that's kind of who i wanted that person to be yes but it's a rich story and sometimes with the brand again pros and cons have been a theme all the way through this chat but that can be difficult because again how do you when people have got no time and they don't care get that big rich story across so it's also been a challenge for us um having said that it has been the thing that i think has allowed us to keep growing and keep evolving we know who that person is but we we know how she is mainly i mainly talk to women although we sell as yeah we sell generally it'll go to the woman who then will buy for the whole household yes we make up the household spend 80 percent of it i think 87 87 there you go yeah exactly so talk to her exactly so i generally have all of these sort of lenses through which she lives and she breathes and she cares and what she's thinking you know i say keep your fancy products for a friday night neon is who i want to be using on a Tuesday when you've had a shitty day at work.

46:03You need it. On a Wednesday when it's raining. On a Thursday when your plans have cancelled, that's when Neom comes in. Bring out something fancy on a Friday when you're having dinner party. That's fine for your friends. Neom is in those moments. Neom has to make you feel like, you know, it's purposeful and it's actually going to do the do, but also there's a bit of luxury to it. Yes. But it's not so luxurious that... It's unattainable. You wouldn't use it on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So there's all of these lenses that I think you want to put on your brand that then you can bring to life through, you know, brand Bibles and all that kind of stuff.

46:40But really figure out how you want it to make your customer feel and when she's going to use it, how she's going to pass it on to her mom, how she's going to pass it on to her daughter, her son, her partner. because if you think through all those ways in which it's going to sort of permeate someone's life when they would and you and also when they're not going to use it when would you not give niam as a gift that's interesting yeah yeah when would you not like niam when would you not choose it because it's important to know that because i think that gives you a really tight brand identity um so so i kind of go through that all the time those kind of phases and that and then i suppose in order to keep it tight and keep it the neon that everybody knows and loves it's it's consistently checking in on those values and those kind of always you know those moments right always about a moment i think it's about a moment and i come back to my magazine days what's that customer mindset what's she thinking what's she feeling what's her day been like when she's going to use this what would this kit be used for when it's christmas for example in our stores i don't i'm not a big fan of christmas training for all the teams and say there's a kit here and it's 25 pound it's got xyz in and stuff right i say when people come into the store just ask them one thing if you're buying for somebody just tell me for one minute how their year's been what have they been through this year so smart and and and then they say okay so i'm buying from rochelle she's started a new business exhausted yeah one kid's being a nightmare husband's playing you got it girl and And they dump on them.

48:17Okay, fine. And then they will build a routine for that person. Yeah, and it feels personal then. And it feels personal. Yeah. And when they then give it to you and they say, give this to Rochelle and tell her she's to use it in this way, not use it in that way. And then, of course, you go, I went into the store, I told them all about you, and they said to me, you should use it in this way. Do you see what I mean? Yes. And it feels personal to them. And as the gift giver, it feels like a lovely thing. Exactly. You know, it feels way more thoughtful. And my girls in the store are far more engaged.

48:45they're not all girls actually, we generally have a lot of women in the stores, but we haven't just got girls like them, but they then feel a lot more engaged to talk about that. And they're more motivated with their job as opposed to going with the body cream and it's 50 mil. And we get 25 % off if you buy it like this. And that just feels, no, no, no. And I also think that's quite a lot to hear as a consumer too. I want to touch on, before we do our rocket round, I want to touch on your day-to-day role now. And we're 21 years in. and how it's progressed and changed and evolved over those years and what it is that you do day to day.

49:25So my job now is kind of almost split into two halves. And by the way, it's not 50-50. It might be 70-30. It might be 60-40. It changes, right? One part of it is the founder role, and that is telling the story like we are now and making sure that's told in the right way. Is that to a group of new leaders? Is that to press? Is that to customers? Is that meeting them in the shop floor? So telling that story and keeping that alive. I'm the person of Neon. So, you know, hopefully I can bring the ways in which that would come alive through the founder story. So part of it is that. And then the other part, by the way, I think that's quite important for a founder rather than just having an ego moment.

50:04Yeah, you're the founder, but how are you bringing the brand alive? Yes. Make it a bit richer than that. I think so. and then the other half is i'm officially called creative director and i've really used my title but really it's just making sure that every way that the brand is experienced touched and seen is on brand yeah so no one comes out with a i don't know really ugly looking you know christmas kit as much as the windows always feel kind of vibey as much as the christmas campaign brings our thoughts to life yes you know and but i do that with the team that are miles better than me but helping sort of at the inception stage of that somewhere in the middle so they're not wasting their time or something doesn't go awry and then at a sort of final sign yeah so that's become less as a sort of you know it's not an art director role by any manner of means but it's just touching it's almost what we were just talking about right consistently making sure that Neon stays the brand that everybody knows and loves and they do that through your voice.

51:08Yeah, and the heart and soul of it, I think, is there. And it feels equally purposeful. It's doing the job as well as luxurious. And you just have this lust after a ball quality. It has to have those two elements. Quite easy to drop one. Yes. Or to over-index on one. So I'm like, oh, a bit too that way. Let's do that with me. And it's just, you know. And you're keeping it with that original vision in mind, which is kind of, like I said, it's a hard thing to do 21 years on to keep everything where it should be. And keep your eyes open also to other people going, I think this might be a better way of doing it.

51:42I know where you're trying to get to, but actually younger people or, you know, new audience thinking this way. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. And particularly now that category is a fully fledged category. So that's almost like, you know, if you look at the start of Neom and when Neom is today, there's a lot. you always have to be a little bit sort of open to move totally and i think with wellness you want to keep new to if there's a new there's new education or understanding or um ingredients or ways of bringing products to life but always keep that no bs yes thing on it because you know ultimately i am you know that northern girl who's like i'm sorry that's ridiculous you know i can so see that i totally am yeah you you take a lot to get past me and me to actually think that's really going to help me so i think that's helpful um yeah yeah in a world where like you say there wasn't a category now the wellness space is like there's a lot of wellness we should be up we should be on a vibrating plate we should be scraping our tongue we should be you know it's kind of it's really gone i'm very sloth you know we should be yes using what is it beef tallow and And, you know, it's all a little bit, it's gone the other way, hasn't it?

52:59So you're there to just bring it back. Yeah, and know where you are in that. I think in exploding category, my other piece of advice would be know where you are in that. Where you see it. Yeah, we are not wellness girlies that get up at five in the morning and drink green juice on a beach. By the way, we're not anti that. We look at that and think, oh, that might be nice to do one weekend. Yeah. You know, but we're not. we are much more about that sort of very real woman who comes home on a Thursday night like I say been a hell of a day and her moment of wellness is barricading those kids out of the door double lock on the you know on the bathroom door having a bath and making that bath work a bit harder that's our woman I'm your woman that's me but the barricade in the door so we'll sell locks next won't we neon locks exactly um when you look at the future of neon from you know if we was to catch up in like the next five years or whatever how do you see the brand continuing to grow gosh i mean it's it's lovely that people are that know and are more interested in the category now it really is lovely it's a bit a bit less like pushing water at home with the form so that's really quite nice i'm really interested we sell as we sell as much to sort of women who are 55 as we do our highest uh growing category is women who are in the 20s wow and that's lovely and we have this whole you know mum's introducing daughters my daughter's doing a gcc right now she's using like the calming pen before she goes in that's not something that i would have created 10 years ago yeah whereas now we think okay we've got girls who are 16 they haven't got a huge amount have cash they might find us on tiktok they're stressed out more than we were at 16 oh my gosh right how can we serve a bit of neon stuff how can we get their mums so i think as my life goes on yeah it's funny how it's great with products yeah it has it's grown with me i never would have thought of that it would have been you know a category of people that i just never touched so as as my daughter grows you know she said to me obviously there's been this whole gourmand thing recently and i was like no no no no and then she was like you can do some amazing things with vanilla you know and i was like oh actually so that the little things there how incredible is that bits and pieces they have to fit within the guardrails of course but it's nice to evolve within that again staying open yeah exactly yeah love to be working on some new fashion collabs this year like what can we do with partnerships we've not done that before quite interested in that now we're big enough that people want neon for neon you know who can we work with that will be really cool that you know might make our core kind of 37 year old mum of two think oh that's quite cool i've moved to the home counties and i'm feeling a bit out of it yeah do you know what i mean so i just think through rather than thinking maybe it's not the proper business way of thinking but i think through entrepreneurs where i think i think so yeah yeah i want to do a rocket round now so these are our well they're supposed to be quick fire questions but babe it's never quick fire on here we said which we start off with these quick fire answers and then we just but i need to elaborate on that so you're all good you're all good um first one is um what do you believe are the non-negotiables for running a business attitude is everything be a good egg challenge the status quo there are neum values for the team yeah and i just wrote them myself one night home and i was like that that's that's who we are and if you've got those i always say that's the kids it's all you need so sweet things be a good egg is my favorite good egg yeah don't want to work with people who aren't good eggs no cut the crap be a good egg we like that what moment did you first realize that you truly launched there wasn't one there really wasn't one i'm afraid i've done the really unsexy thing of building this brick by brick so if i said to you oh my god one night we had overnight sales and we were in that then i would be lying it's been brick by brick and even now oh maybe maybe like when we were looking for a house and on right move i saw like a neon reed diffuser on the toilet or something That's the one.

57:10That's the one. I love that. Maybe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that. Yeah, that's great. I love that. We're in a house. I love that so much. And you know what I love? That they didn't put it away. Exactly. Because you know when they come to take those pictures for the house, you're like, get everything off the side, but the neon stays. Exactly. We'll take that. We'll take that. What's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? I have a cup of tea first thing in the morning. Either I make it or I make my partner make it for me. That's better. That is better.

57:39He's around. It's way better. It's part of the contract. And how about before you go to bed? Before I go to bed, I always read a paper book. I'm a massive reader. It's like a massive joy of mine. Yes. So I have to read a book. What are you reading at the minute? Oh, God, at the moment, I'm a judge on the Women's Prize. So I'm reading some pretty hefty stuff. Oh, okay. Yeah. Finest Hotel of Kabul. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Amazing. Right. Adds to list. I always ask for everyone's recommendations. Yeah, it's a really, really good book. I should really tell you all the shortlist ones and obviously I haven't got time for it because they'll kill me but that's the one that I'm reading at the moment okay we'll love that we'll share that one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to oh gosh hadn't listened to I can't imagine you listening to advice if you didn't feel like it was great yeah oh god you've got to know me really well I just feel like you'd be like which I love yeah I think I am but maybe too much maybe I should listen to more advice I mean and it's served you very well girl well yeah I think I've got a few people around me I'm like you're good for that you're good for that you're good for that you're good for that and knowing what to take on when yeah I think so I go for that one for book recs that one for yeah yeah edited my yeah my friends got a good little black book um what's a skill that you'd love to learn I really am quite enjoying painting at the moment I did an art degree and I really really enjoy do you know what I like doing something that is just for me yes you know when we're projecting all day long and talking and it's our voice it's quite nice just to shut up yes and just do something you're so right it's not for anyone it's not going to go on Instagram I don't care if it's good bad and different I don't even want to really get that much better at it it's just a nice switch off the anti sort of thing you know the anti-entrepreneurial thing in your life escapism yeah i love that um one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started out i think that it was going to take longer and we've spoken about that a lot today that it was going to take longer to build something that was really sustainable and supported the family and and would get to the stage that i would want it too yeah you're right and having that patience particularly it's it's so important and I know we've discussed it a lot but it's so important to flag that now because we see everything online that's happening quickly for everybody and you can feel that it's so distracting isn't it all that outside noise when you're really sort of hammering home that same message every day and you're working and you're building something brick by brick but enjoy the journey as well you know it's been such an amazing part of my life and I've learned so much and you know it it's you've got to train your brain I think to enjoy those years yes I think then funnily enough you make better decisions you know so right you're so right um what was so funny that you mentioned what you did before because one of our questions is what would be the dream collab for the brand what or who who um I'd really like to do something with oh gosh I'd really like to do something with the girls from Amanda Land Oh I love that Because I just think that they are Is it not the best thing ever I'm just obsessed with it I am It's so me Well I was obsessed with my one It's just it is It is I think even if you don't have children Because my friend said to me the other day Should I watch it And she loves it She's not got children You know that's like not her world Brilliant She's like it's just women It's just brilliant It's just brilliant I love I mean if I wasn't doing this i think writing i love that observation me and my mom we get together and we just tell each of the most stupid stories about what happened in the gym or the supermarket all day long and i think they're the women that we created neon yes yes you know oh my gosh something with amanda would be insane that'd be brilliant i could see her what was her shop called no the senuous yes i could see her wanting to sell exactly so she'd be using it for that and and others would be using it for just you know pillar mist and drowning themselves yeah so i think that real women i think love and i just anything that's funny that's a genius idea um if you could choose one female as a mentor past or present who would that be i am always on the lookout for women who are like 10 years older than me and are wise like i'm kind of like a magpie to them and there's not that many you know in our industry there's not actually i actually probably you need a mentor.

1:02:18I need, I feel like a mentor so many people. Yeah. And I could do somebody else. But, you know, women who have grown businesses and done really well out of it, Paula from Paula's Choice did amazingly. And those real kind of kick ass. Yeah. Don't listen to any rubbish. I love that. You know, even if you don't have the confidence to do that, it just makes you feel a bit stronger. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of pure free sort of taking it in. By Carlo vibes, isn't it? Yes. So I always love older women who followed their own path and didn't listen to the status quo didn't go with the status quo challenged it yeah there you go it's it but it's it's so true it's so true and i think and it's so interesting that you said that you mentor so many women yeah the mentor needs a mentor i think to pair you with yours let's apply for one for me applications in the box below Oh, exactly.

1:03:11You can't subscribe. Now it's time for 321. I'm going to ask some quick financial questions powered by our friend at Starling, the bank on a mission to give founders confidence and control over their finances. I want to talk about financial habits because I think we touched on earlier that for you that not being your sort of strong suit at the start and we like to evolve over time. So I want to talk about three financial habits that you've kept from day one as a founder that still serve you well. Personally or in the business? Either or, whatever you think. Cash is king, obvious. You know, it's fascinating how quick that can kind of go and be, you know.

1:03:56And I've seen founder friends with very, very successful businesses suddenly get themselves into a pickle. Right. You never know what could be around the corner. I mean, this year has been crazy in the UK, right? Everything's changed. The way the meta costs have gone up, et cetera, et cetera. Things, and I've seen this happen time and time again. So believe you me, it's not a one-off. What goes up must go down, what goes down. It goes like this. So I think understanding that things change. And even if you're in a good place right now and you're buffered, buffer more. Yeah. Because honestly, it can be nothing to do with you.

1:04:32Might be nothing you've done wrong. but things can suddenly bite you on the bum yeah so that would be one thing where cash is king um and i'm also the same in my personal life i'm quite um sensible i think with cash i always have been i've always thought i like to have a plan b c d and often e right in everything like never assume this is it assume this goes a bit wrong then what does it look like assume it goes worse then what is it i've always suffered from anxiety obviously that's why we're here and i the best way of me helping myself in that is to go to the plan e get comfortable with that and then the plan a i mean some mad thing sometimes i'll go and right move and look at houses like cheaper cheaper cheaper cheaper just so you know something mental i'm understanding that it's like okay you'll be fine in that the children will go there you do that i have to build up a really base case plan and then I think it sort of allows me to live in a better frame of mind yeah no I get that though so it's almost just the constant future proofing totally like you know totally best better worst best better like at all times always knowing that you'd be comfortable yeah with the worst and also then funnily enough guess what that means you feel more grateful for what you have got yes rather than being like oh we didn't quite make this month's figures or whatever um I think there's a degree of realism as well with that i think you've just got to realize again what goes up must come down and either way around um and then a third thing what would i say the third thing i mean just basic stuff get your ices and stuff sort of sorted out you know get some savings in in place and and i suppose it's all about all my advice would be about diversification right so you've got options because i think when you get yourself into any place where you haven't got options and i think so many entrepreneurs will go there was no other choice i understand that and i've been in that position too you're backed into a corner yeah but you want to be backed into a corner that you've got to make the success whilst also not thinking oh my god i can't feed the children yes yes to be able to separate the two exactly even if that's kind of keeping your hand in another skill that you've got or something but i think living with an anxiety that you know beyond you'll always have a bit of anxiety when you're when you're a founder but i think living with it to an uncomfortable level for a longer time i've seen people make really silly decisions or they get fatigued with something and then suddenly they're going to like sell it or take investment for something like what are you doing that i'm just i'm just knackered i can't do it anymore yeah it's like well if you'd thought about this five years ago you might have been okay yeah so it's almost like preparation is key with the finances for sure yeah um what are two financial myths in business that you've found out that simply just aren't true well obviously you know you put back into the business you don't take the cash out um obviously with the buffer to one side so i think there's a myth that you know if the business is turning over x you're worth this crazy amount again we've spoken about those headline figures And I think turnover for vanity, profit for sanity still, you know, is very much a rule.

1:07:56And I think, what else? Even if you're not good with finances, you understand the basics. You know, there's this brilliant story of how Richard Branson asked his CFO to come out of a board meeting once and explain to him what net profit meant. Because he didn't know. I mean, I rate the honesty that he told that story. you know everyone's heard it and i just thought yes you know i said speak to my cfo and i go can we just go through this idiot language yes like i understand what we're bringing in i understand the basics of the growth i understand what we've got i understand the i understand you know four or five basic things actually it serves me quite well to keep my knowledge base pretty simple in many ways do you know what i mean but you do know that you do understand the principles of that you know so So I think don't say you know nothing.

1:08:49You might not know an accountant's level of financial literature, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean you have to say, oh, I want nothing to do with the finances. I always want to know what the basics are. Where were we basically going on those six graphs? And then if we're going to move some money from that pot to that pot, why are we moving that money? What are we going to spend it on? So I think that you can be financially literate. Without having all of the ideas, you're not necessarily creative in that zone but you've got an understanding don't let people bamboozle you yes exactly yeah you know make it to a level that works for you but you've still got a grip on it you can still make the decisions you can still be involved in making the decisions but you don't have to nothing should be a surprise yeah yeah and then lastly what's the smartest financial decision you've made whilst building neon i think that that would be um always making sure that it's profitable we've always it's always been profitable and it's grown at kind of you know 30 % kaga and we've always prioritized that and I would never have chosen to do the thing that a lot of other brands do and I am not slate it's just another way to do it but I would never have grown a huge brand that's never making any money I just would have been scared as to that that wouldn't have that would have made me too anxious yes again that wouldn't have fulfilled that idea of i can if everything goes wrong i can just pay for the children it wouldn't have done that whereas hats off to people who are like don't care going to grow it this is where the market is and then we'll sell at the end of the day but it wouldn't have suited me and i think these are questions that entrepreneurs should ask themselves what is your level of um what is your risk appetite can you live with that are you every day like not making any money this could go bust any minute but we could also make millions and you're happy to stay in that zone for five years if you are scary isn't it for me i'm not into that but that's fine if you are so i think for me the best decision that we made was that slow and steady and always knowing we can say to people no you can go that can go we're always fine that was always really important to me but you've got to ask there's no one way of doing it it's like saying do you want to live in london do you want to live in the country you want one kid you want four none of these questions are right and wrong it's very personal it's personal and there's no there's no sort of personalization i think of growing businesses i think this is probably something we should talk about a bit more it shouldn't be this is how you grow a business it should be here's one way here's another way here's another way yes and asking yourself the right questions how old are your children do you want to work five days a week do you want to work three days a week do you want to do something that's a hobby do you want to do something that you don't care what the product is you've got no creativity you just want to make cash these are the questions that you want to ask yourself when do you want to get out do you ever want to get out do you want a salary do you not want a salary is redefining sort of what success looks like and that can change a different sort of periods of your life too and you know maybe now at one point mine was probably to just put my foot down and go for this and now it's like well no I actually on these days I want to be back for school run and i want to take a layer to paddle on this day or i want to you know this is this is now what's important so i need to sort of design my job and my role around 100 % that so i think it does it's how you want to we talk about this sort of headlines as we say of how these businesses should look but actually how do you want to feel when you're in it designing a business for your life that's exactly it it's very very important um each episode i ask each guest to leave a tip almost like a tangible piece of advice for a lady listening to this looking to launch if they've sort of watched on and seen this sort of progression of neom and the success of you what would sort of one piece of advice be that you would think a lady needs to know i mean can i say that design the business for what suits your life elaborate on that yeah i would absolutely say that risk of repeating myself I would say design it for what works for you ask yourself some real personal questions really get comfortable with your own desire for risk your own ambition level the time frame you want the amount of cash you want what money you actually you want do you want to are you going to push on and you want a plane or do you just want to be able to you know retire at 45 or whatever it is ask yourself those questions and then build the business that works for that otherwise you might end up thinking success looks like 100 million pounds in the plane actually having the most stressful awful life with loads and loads of people that you've got to manage and actually right at the end of it you don't get there anyway yeah that would be the worst or the house and the plane isn't that fun exactly yeah yeah yeah you don't want that yeah exactly so ask yourself some some real basic questions about what a good life looks like to you and that includes finance risk lifestyle time um what a nice job looks like like a nine to five spending your time and then construct the business around that.

1:14:12Don't think I've got this idea to build foffy tables and I want it to be as big as possible. And then actually the fallout of that is a life that is just bloody awkward. And it's allowed to look different to your peers too. Like your idea of success can be different because I think we can let everyone else in. Totally. It has to fit you. Exactly. That is such good advice. Nobody talks about that enough. you're so right because we just hear these like they turned over this they launched here they did this and poor girl's hanging on by thread you know like who's this serving she's having a menti b and she's not been allowed to take any cash out for six years she's absolutely depleted bless her um and then lastly i ask this because we talk about ladies who launch but when it comes to ladies who lunch yes if i was your assistant and i just started today and i wanted to please you at lunch hour what would i be ordering where would it be from and where would you be eating it oh gosh right okay this is the most you've thought about a question and i love this i am such a greedy cat i am honestly i am shocking this is i i can't waste calories and i don't mean that as in i'm a you know i want to be thin like everything needs to be really well thought of yeah i'm with We play Dying Meal as a family on holiday.

1:15:36What's your death row meal? All the time. And we'll go, oh, like this starter from this place in Barbados. Okay, so I think it would be, I think it's going to be abroad. Okay, okay, I'm in. Because you said lunch in a system, but can I just do like my ideal lunch? Whatever you want, whatever's going to make you happy for lunch. It's because it's June now and I'm thinking of my holidays. Yes. Because it has to be a bottle of rosé, doesn't it? But a great lunch has to involve a bottle of rosé. Okay, I'm with you. Down. I like a little ice cube in mine. What do you think? I do. Well, the temperature's key.

1:16:15It's frowned upon a little bit, isn't it? But I like an ice cube in mine. Yeah. Well, the temperature. So if it doesn't come out and it's not super, super, super cold, then that has to be the answer. You know, when their glasses look a bit frosty. You're on holiday then, aren't you? And that moment where you go, this is the life. Here we are. Really nice. Exactly, like Lady A or something. I don't know if I play Whispering Angel. I think it's always a bit too expensive for what it is. But anyway, you get the gist. Pale, the paler the better is what we've discovered. So we've started with Rose, so we've got a bit of music on.

1:16:44Great. You know, that's nice. You've got some friends, blah, blah, blah. Where are we? Sun shining. Where are we? Mallorca. Gorgeous. Fantastic. We're in Mallorca. Yeah. Okay, so because it's lunch, this is going to throw you. It might be like, if I'm a bit hungover, it might be a really good club sandwich are you kidding me? club sandwich on holiday, on a beach it's unbeaten I think that's kind of like the day before you die vibe isn't it? you feel like you might because the hangover is real I was going to say something really fancy but actually the coming together of the whole thing I think would be that nice at the table, bit of music and you know not thick bread, nice thin bread lots of nice really the bacon really just perfect and look at tiny thin chips loads of mayonnaise the ones in the in the jars going for a little sleep after this yes thank you okay should we just go away i feel like we've done we've heard it that feels good i've pictured the whole thing i'm there that was like a visualization process i should have shut my eyes thank you so much i've i've absolutely loved this i've loved you come and chatted to us and now I also want to go away so thank you building the perfect life you see absolutely design the business for you exactly pale rose in hand going home on a private jet for the little nap yeah well I hate flying so that's actually my worst nightmare oh no however successful I've become you can go on jet 2 you're fine I'll still be jet 2 holidays I'll see you there I loved it thank you thank you so much

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