Building Never Fully Dressed: Turning Customers Into Lasting Community

0:00Today I'm joined by Lucy Aylen, founder and creative director of Never Fully Dressed, the fashion brand that's built a global following by putting community, inclusivity and confidence at its core. What started out at London Markets has grown into a multi-million pound business. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

0:30I'm so pleased to have you here I feel like I remember well I remember this the infancy of never fully dressed so much so because obviously I say obviously we we we have friends in common we used to hang out loads and I remember the embassy so much and then the kind of the scale of it and what it's become is so so incredible and I love when I was saying to the team today they you know we're talking to them we go for everyone's briefs and I was like no no it's this is like to to see it and normally that doesn't ever really happen where I I've seen something from the start and know what it's becoming it honestly i'm like i'm so delighted for you it's so so brilliant okay i want to go back to those early days though and just sort of unpack those a little bit you started by selling at london market and and let's let's like sort of go like what sort of era of time that was because we we concentrate so much on this like fast growth society and like launch a business We grow in, luckily, but yeah.

1:40No, but this is what I think. I think it's so important for people to know that and appreciate that because I think when you're starting something, there's a level of expectation now. We talk to lots of sort of young founders, founders that are just launching, and their level of expectation. I'm like, where's the good old days when it was slow and steady wins the race? I think now you are so, people won't, maybe more so because we're much more, what's the word? not voyeuristic but people post more of an everyday life but you post those big wins um i actually remember hearing dave abbo talk so the founder of grind um and so we only really celebrate yeah the the bill gates elon musk like the guy having a corner shop is running a successful business like i feel bad on my mom never thinking she was an entrepreneur that wasn't a thing a female entrepreneur back in the day but yeah she had a good business do you know i mean um so whether you show those just those big wins that I think people are impressed with on social yeah um we as a business are actually quite antiviral I mean that would not be the anything spike you're tall in any area of the business is not good for me whether it's um say like when Love Island or I'm thinking of someone's in something and there's a big spike yeah it's so not sustainable you then don't have the stock to fulfill you try and repeat but you've lost the momentum on something all your repeats come in for that first hit that you sold out anyway like even just that in isolation is is not great so any big reliance on a certain type of advertising any if you've got one hero in the business and everyone else is flat like any spike is just just doesn't support sustainable growth um so yeah going back to that part i don't think i've had any apart from covid was a big turning point for the whole world but before that and after that it's been pretty steady growth maybe say grueling I don't know what it is but it's just steady it feels sloggy which isn't sexy or celebrated maybe there's a bit of a turn I think in appreciation of that now but yeah it doesn't feel sexy um which isn't a shinier story to tell on Instagram yeah but I just think it's so important that we hear more of that because I think in a world where everybody lives by comparison it's overwhelming when you're like why hasn't this happened or why hasn't that gone in the way that it did for somebody else yeah even now people say to me maybe more around the covid time oh you've like blown up overnight i'm thinking you're like no when i was doing portobello and it's snowing and you have something pinched and you've taken 30 pounds you go back to your car and you've got a clamp or something yeah yeah it didn't feel like an overnight yeah yeah Yeah, exactly.

4:21Yeah, Sleeping Beauty overnight. So let's talk about those early days. What was the kind of kick out? What was the light bulb moment that you had? And what was the initial idea? Unfortunately for the sexiness of the podcast, I don't think there was a light bulb idea. Like what we've just said, I think it was gradual. I, so I was, I still am an undiscovered actress. So if anyone's listening, had no work. And my mum was like, you need to get a job. So I was brought up on the shop floor. My parents were market traders. I mean, had a lot of stores. So I just understood that. So how someone whose mum is a hairdresser might go start washing hair on a Saturday.

5:03We had tills at home, like proper tills. That's what was our play. So I started doing the markets. I know how to do that. But I was creative. So where my parents just bought and sold, I could make stuff and sold it in the markets. That at the time as well. This is before social media, imagine. And that is your shop window. It's a relatively cheap way to start a business. So I had no cash flow then. Do you know what I mean? You're just selling stuff to invest again. And it started to grow. Still never, I suppose, little turning points. So that started to grow steady. Then I think when we got our, which we still have, our store, my mum had chucked us out the loft and was like, I'd threadbare all the carpets.

5:43And she was like, come on. So we got the store. That then is an increased thing of responsibility. so I think that was a yeah yeah that was yeah the responsibility that upped the ante a little bit then I think the next turning point was COVID where we grew a lot and unfortunately I wish I didn't need that but I think obviously we know consumer online businesses went crazy and all of a sudden everyone was in my ear of this is what your business is worth and I was like okay maybe maybe this is a thing here so I say external validation a shame that I needed that but that was okay maybe we're a thing um and then it's been pretty steady since then for you was it about being creative or was it about building something that you thought I don't know that you thought you could scale or was that just not not that wasn't conscious at all I think I'm a really hard worker I mean I would only enter a race if I wanted to win I would do it like I'm competitive and I'm hard working um so I think that was just there and I wanted to do the best that I could I wanted to take more money the week after um like my parents had businesses in the 80s like there was no I don't know it was just cash is king yeah you go and you earn some money and then you go and have a good night with that do you know what I mean um so no there was no yeah there was no consciousness of of that still really I think I think since COVID so that was for about 10 years so I don't know what I was doing still um growing and I think I couldn't not be creative even now like if I go and I actually made a bit of a pact to myself a couple of years ago of protecting other areas of creativity for me because work became work and less creative at one point um and I have to be creative otherwise I go a bit I don't yeah I need to um so it was always creative but yeah much more hand-to-mouth so again not a prolific story there only i think i did it the other way around whereas now people would have a what do they call it like a business plan business model yeah this is how i'm going to go about it especially because sorry i think worth noting that we've never had external investment like i own 100 of the business so i think if you're going around getting investment or partners you have to have a different approach to it yes So that enabled that slow growth and that steady growth, really strict discipline.

8:07I didn't have a board that I had to answer to. So it could always be at the pace that you were kind of ready for. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I say not sexy. Sometimes I wish we grew faster, but yeah, sorry. But not having that pressure. Obviously, there's pressure when you're when you are the founder and it's your baby. but not having the pressure of answering to other people and hitting certain milestones and targets and so on and so forth, having the time to be able to breathe and figure out the business. Yeah. Yeah. Equally, which I've found more in recent years, I'm wanting that, like a bit of a, not a seniority, but a level of expertise to learn from.

8:51Yes. I felt, apart from my mum, maybe, I mean, that other voice or other people experience around the table, I don't know, to take it in different directions, to challenge me. Now when I interview, when I hire, someone that challenges me, excites me. To be at the top of that tree isn't as stimulating or you don't learn as much. So yes, no one to answer to, whether that's good or bad. um it's good and bad I think for different reasons and do you think it's also the sort of idea of because I feel very much like this like I feel like I've taken my business as far as sort of you know obviously I would always be in that leadership position but as far as I can take it when it comes to certain things I can I'm not like I don't have an ego enough to not know that and not acknowledge that so I feel like I'm recently taking on a CEO that's gonna sort of that I want to learn from and I want to sort of follow and say well what do you think okay well let's fly with that because yeah this isn't this you know I've been doing this for eight years six years the business has been a thing but it's not it's a world that I've learned because I've had to and because it's mine so I like I know I'm not the expert and I'm not somebody that knows every single part of it I'm not I can't be but what I am is creative and what I am is brand obsessed yeah but I think it was just for me time for someone else to add value yeah and I think you go in different stages of that so yes what served you in a certain period yeah not what is in the next phase yes so just identifying that have that reflection every even if you have to have the discipline of putting that in your calendar or whatever it is have that discipline to ask those questions and not be have a safe space with um team to maybe make calls on look I don't think this is right here I need a different uh person yeah to take that department forward um because you're not doing either of you favors should you be taking certain staff members with you that aren't right for that next part of the journey it's not fun for either of you and how do you feel about those moments are you like do you love them does that weigh heavy no one loves it yeah But does it weigh heavy on you?

11:10Because some people are way better at being, I suppose, a bit more. I don't know if direct's the right word, but like they can actually separate themselves from it and do the business. I find that hard. Yeah. Because I'm a bit more like emotionally driven, which I really try to not be, but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with that. One, we all know that clarity is kindness. And I think it's a little bit cowardly or a bit indulgent, you're protecting your feelings but you're doing you're doing that other person a favor I've had it before where I've let go of someone this is not right the right place for them it took about a year for them to even well maybe longer than that like they hated me as a person and I think you've just got to build that thing that I know that that is the right thing for you this is the right not the right place for you um and let them shine in whatever their next opportunity is you're hold you're actually holding them back for being somewhere else that is right for them yes um i suppose i was just i was i think i was thinking around a value piece as well of how we hire and i say that honesty piece that knowing that is number one that is our number one value and the priority of that so you those conversations are not difficult like i say you take any emotion out of it we've got an incredible people person um and she makes it so simple you go with her with any challenge of like finding this really hard because you bring your own ego or emotional thing to it and she's like but no this is the this is our set of values and xyz how she explains it is like wow like a disney little sprinkling that comes over and you're like oh my gosh this is so obvious and every every conversation just feels not easy do you mean because it's still you're playing with people's lives or career but it's clear yeah you can't you no one can um challenge you or you can't feel bad if you're clear and honest about something you can't come for me there's nothing on my conscience then yes um this is clear and honest then you need to have a mature response to that and take that and do what you need to do for you yeah I know what you mean and it's like and I think if you're well if you're an honest person anyway those values don't change when it comes to your business it's just like like you say no one loves it but if you actually sort of change the narrative it's actually better it might not be nice as the person delivering the news but it's better for the other person because you can see you're holding them back yeah yeah what do you think if we go back to those early days what do you think those kind of that early market experience taught you about your customers and who is you know who it is that shopping never fully dressed and how do you think that's helped shape the brand that you've built well it is obviously covid that community piece was a bit of a buzzword but that is a true it's such a clear example of community i mean they were your customers they were your friends at the market they'd come and bring you a coffee um and i think it's so you're face to face you can't hide in that instant so you can really see even now like we do it when we're in sign off or when we've got samples delivered to the office you hold it up and oh do you like this and i'll ask certain people for a certain reason they don't even have to answer you can see in their face you can see in their body language like so it's the same when you show a customer on the shop floor like oh what about this dress and it's you know the reason of why and then you can talk but the feedback is so valuable and i think there was a period of time where we didn't have the shop the markets had slowed down by then social wasn't a thing and we really missed that customer feedback now yes maybe it's a bit of a hybrid because we don't have a big retail footprint but you've got social and our customers our community are so vocal yes but you're still behind a screen so there's all like obsessed whatever but are you checking out on that product right now whereas in you're on a shop floor it's instant i think it's such a good discipline everyone in your in our office has to work in the shop floor that do one day whatever whatever it is on the rotor right because they're there and that person like you get so not keyboard warrior what is it like if you're in an office you're so incubated yes wherever someone walks out of that shop and you've lost that sale whereas you're behind a desk and you don't realize that someone's logged on they couldn't find the size or the size the navigation wasn't great and they've got bored and come off um whereas in a shop floor that is so present yeah you need to you can't lose that yes that's that's so interesting so every member of the team is in is in the shop yeah one day a week that's so not one day a week but there's a road whatever the road is yeah yeah that's that's incredible what i think what i think is so i mean interesting about you and your success is that you were we throw this community word round now it's like become such a buzzword and i think people use it as a buzzword but there's a real difference between having it and saying the community and I think you are one of the you know in when I think of like brands that have really built out community first it really sits at the heart of everything you do and you can see that I can see it in certain brands I think it when I think of refi and makeup I think gosh they've got such a strong community I think when I think gym where I think of honor and I think that and I really do think the same for never fully dressed when did you kind of realize that your customers weren't just sort of buying from you they were identifying with the brand and almost feeling like they were part of something I suppose at the market that I mean even though before it was a brand so it's just been the whole way on the journey Covid was massive where that was Covid also a turning point that was the first time I was ever present on social so I was never present before so I had to be my husband made a set and I had to start shooting and and connect and realized how much that resonated so there was almost more of a direct communication with I am the brand do you know I mean um so that was strong I think that connection how that spread uh what was that like for you by the way because that that that time in COVID obviously people were being resourceful right and it's like okay shit what we're gonna do now right I'm gonna go make a set for me thanks yeah and I'm gonna try and do like Is it something that felt comfortable?

17:36Yeah, that's my natural habitat, thinking on your feet. I've done market stalls and everything. I love that. I love that creativity. And the team was small, so we were, again, everyone talks about agility, but we were able to be really agile. And that's me and my strength, which is why now we've got the MD, someone complete opposite to me and is considered and thorough. I'm not any of that. I mean, I paint my house every two minutes. I'm bored of that. It's just an evolving thing. So, yeah, I loved that. the team were great we were able to truly be creative i think and serve the community it was colorful it was sunny um oh god yeah sunny we're all into us so just coming back to uh the community piece even then since then um i was talking on the way here like our people person again she's incredible um we've got a new thing in the office that any meeting we have we have a chair an empty chair and that is the customer that is the community so they are at the forefront of any conversation any decision if we're discussing size offering or a certain range plan or whatever it is is the customer considered in that conversation so that they're just they are truly and not as a buzzword they're truly integrated in in everything we do as who we serve but you can see you can't i don't think you can you can't fake that like you can you can see that and you and it really really does come across on social and you can see how engaged everybody is as soon as something new is coming.

19:03I think you can feel that and then you can feel it's quite clear who the community is to me too, which I think is credit to the brand that you've built. Yeah, and she's broad as well. Like it's 20 to 70, 80, size, whatever. I mean, which equally provides its challenges from a marketing or a product point of view. So that still resonates specifically, but I think it's more about the energy rather than another specific around yeah so yeah when we do we do a walk like for fashion week and it's just all of our community on that it's beautiful whenever I'm in the store in New York seeing people of completely different we've had completely different mornings completely different people whatever it is class age and they come in and how they celebrate like genuinely champion each other and that's that's the thing it's beautiful yeah and it feels really inclusive too like you said I think that's something you do so well when it comes to like size ranges and you know that has that always been really really important to you yes but probably not obviously and like when I first started everything was one size so on the markets because I never came from a design background I could make a big oversized pattern yes it did fit most all people but it was more I suppose that's where that multi-way styling element came in because it was how do you make it yours do you wear that see-through with knickers do you layer it do you belt it do you tie it um and then slowly yeah it's become from one size to sometimes a four at least a six to a 28 sometimes a 30 petite yeah i think as a person i think any form of elitistness really bores me like why would i want every person who's coming into my shop or my brand to be the same i don't think that's a true i think it's dangerous for kids, do you know what I mean?

20:55To see one type of person that's not cool so to be inspired by I used to travel a lot, I think just to open your eyes, open the world and celebrate that rather than someone fitting into something else it's just much more interesting, more fun let alone I think an eclectic style an eclectic person, an acceptance of who someone is, of someone to feel seen on the size thing I suppose I always took for granted like being a kind of slim person you could go shopping with your friends or your mum imagine never having that for your birthday for your 16th birthday not being able to go shopping like how the feeling of that for a for a young girl when you're going through a tough hormonal time anyway um so i think for everyone to feel really valued and seen i think you're in a much safer space yeah for sure and only that celebrated too yeah yeah yeah i think for them for someone's own self-worth I think any fear or any security only transpires into quite scary um results I agree yeah did you ever feel in those like early days limited by resources obviously like I said I know that you were you were lucky that you had parents for guidance and you were sort of in that space or do you think sometimes if if you were limited did that force you to become more creative yeah i fully appreciate that it's a very privileged um take um but i think any limit i feel like if you focus on that um you'll only see that yes i mean i think i never no of course I didn't have I didn't have money I remember doing a car boot sale you have 500 pounds to then go and buy your first lot of stock or um yes my parents were in the market so a work ethic was passed down or a few contacts within manufacturing in the UK were passed down um but you could you change that mindset you could feel sorry for yourself about anything except about acting oh I never I wasn't an epobaby in that I'd much rather have of them being directors or something I mean or yeah or you could, I do a bit of mentoring now and it's, I don't know if it's generational I think it may be just be a person because maybe people I know across generations are like that you just flip that narrative for yourself on grateful for what you've got and use what you've got yes you don't have money or yes you don't have whatever it is but I've got this so let's make that work you're just wasting your time you're wasting your time thinking about what you've not got.

23:34You're so right, the outlook can change anything. Yeah and it sounds super, I mean and a bit thing but yeah it's true I think I agree I owe everything to my outlook I didn't come from a privileged background at all remotely you know quite the opposite but I think now I understand that I have privilege but I've worked hard to create that privilege and I've sort of you know been resourced for where I can and I've built that and now if I was to do something new or launch something that's coming from a place of privilege but it wasn't always there you know and I think you kind of like you say you have to try and flip that outlook and know that you can make and in any area like not even in the business i think of my dad as an example like he lost his brother and his sister when they were young his mom when they were young like but he would think he's the luckiest person in the world yes do you know what i mean so it depends what it is like the mindset yeah i agree i agree which is hard to flip when you're not in that space i get it sometimes you just have to have disciplines that even if you don't believe it try and get it out there i know i say margaret thatcher like or dislike her whatever but like if you think something you say it if you say it you walk it if you walk it you are it like you can slowly you can you can train yourself for that yeah and also those like you have to just keep acknowledging like you say the small wins yeah like you say if your dad had focused on everything that wasn't you know that was kind of that life hadn't gone his way and you know that the trauma but you know feeling smoke focusing on the small wins and things that light you up can can change that outlook and the tiniest thing and i get and maybe without it being patronizing like yeah you've had a super hard day at work do i mean but how lucky you've got a job or like that like there must be something even if it's tiny um in your life that would be someone else's dream yes yes exactly that um I want to talk about the kind of growth because we we discussed like you say it's for you it's been really really steady which is which I'm such a fan of steady growth like and I think I actually think there's always argument for that being way tougher than like something being new everyone loving it and then it you know things drop off and it's maintaining that if you there's that other side of the pressure that's like you get that spike and you get that huge kind of i don't know momentum to keep it up there is tough is really really yeah well you make all the adjustments to operate at that level when that might not be realistic yeah yeah exactly we speak about covid can you talk me through that and walk me through that a little bit what were the key moments that you think really helped to move the business forward you've mentioned COVID a lot but how and like like give me some clarity on like how that changed the business and what what did it do we came out of COVID a different size business to what we went in I think people expected more of us so I think in two arms and business or life you've got product and you've got people um i think people were coming to us from an employer point of view expecting us to be much more mature than what we were right but that was not fun i think i don't think we had um the setup that people were expecting so that made me focus much more on uh culture again is not a clear word but um on what we provided what type of employer we were um looking long term Yeah, retention and what we could provide to our staff and very much looking at that as a two-way thing.

27:21Yeah. We've matured that even more now and people to me is a full circle of people. So people pre-product, I would say. So health, happiness and wellness of everyone who is part of the product before it gets to us. And we've got internal people, so staff on payroll, and then future people, which is community. So very much looking at people as a whole. So that was in stages though. first of all it was definitely internal right real focus on value we now hire fire according to values that's number one for us embedding that in how we yeah hire um how we run the business then you've got products so again we came out like our product is in a different space compared to what it was what was that six years ago so looking at as we scale that was at at that time i think we used to have comments so that the quality and the price weren't aligned whereas we don't get that at all now are i think we're underpriced for no one does our quality on our on sustainable basis or whatever it is for our price but at that point that wasn't aligned um so focus for me and this is where i come in to my play a little bit more but just on product just all we've done since then is focus on product so quality so every season we would be improving finishes internal finishing fabric basing um yeah elevating prints every season how we work into stuff how many layers like the integrity of design process again for our price point now i think is incredible um so for me working on product um so both of those two things consciously working because but only made to stimulated because of perhaps feedback or whatever it was so again listening to community and i think one of the best compliments we've had like we had we had some customers post-covid who were like ah your quality's not where it needs to be please I love you like I want to be a customer yeah I'm like where else do you have that level of loyalty within a brand that are saying I'm gonna just hang out here while you improve all of these things and then they're back and they're back now and it's it's amazing like I think that's unheard of And what do you think that's kind of like your sort of focus into how, what you need to do to improve the business and how that looks and how that changed.

29:38But what do you think actually happened to the business in that time? Like how, what was the demand just through the roof? Like what happened in that period of time that, you know, sort of propelled Never Fully Dressed in that way? during covid it was when you're thinking where are people going to wear these dresses do you mean but that that we'll be just excited girl yeah yeah but i think that's great that true um empowerment piece that i think i was fully aware of what our clothes or what the color or whatever did to someone um do you remember what sort of what was flying at that time what was i mean the rainbow was in so nhs did us a favor anyway which played into our thing at the time Do you know what I mean?

30:22It was like, it was quite oversized. Was it still like, yeah, I think everyone had put on a, it's like freshman 15 for COVID. Is that the COVID stone? Oh, there you go. Yeah. All that banana bread. Yeah, yeah. So colourful, oversized. Actually, sorry, a big turning point was when we launched. So the extended size offering, as much as it is now, I mean, it's extended more so now, we used to make it exclusively for ASOS. Right. Then all... like b2b businesses any wholesale partners everyone closed their doors during covid luckily for us i've always been really protective and it's always 80 of the business is d2c um we were able to turn that on for our community and we were like wow like we've absorbed that stock and everyone's loved it so it's a big turning point in who we can serve the demand within that wider size range for us from a d2c point of view not as reliant on partners was there a moment that you were like oh this particular thing is flying or people are really resonating

31:23Lucy Aylen: with this no i don't really think too much yeah we trade weekly you couldn't really trade loads we have uk production as well which is amazing i mean everyone was trying to move production all around the world at that time it was just wherever you can wherever freight is not like wild which it was less wild than others so it was just about agility of supply chain so it's more what you could get rather than yes um how do we or how do we reshoot or reinvent something or tell the story of it in a different way because you couldn't really trade um i don't know how you would now it wasn't available especially covid hit different parts of the world at different times in different extremes.

32:13So it didn't give you that flexibility. Was you, was this like, was it, did it feel like an exciting time or did it feel like logistically this is intense? It was exciting because the, I feel bad as well because a lot of people were affected by COVID. Yeah, of course. Obviously terribly, do you know what I mean? But we were small enough where the stakes weren't high in that way. I say I wasn't in that business,

32:42Lucy Aylen: phase um now like our process is so much longer um so no it felt quite fun yeah fun and collaborative we would have a zoom every day of everyone in the business there was only probably i'd say about 12 14 people in the business at that point and you felt like you could be reactive like with what was sort of happening or what was working for you guys yeah but we were at a scale that we could be yes that's much easier moving a little plant around in your like a little seed around in the garden rather than moving an oak tree do I mean try doing that with a massive business with massive logistics yeah it's a different story so I'm not showing off here like it was that was we were able to do that yeah now I think very much harder to do if we hit COVID yeah that's so interesting that's so interesting as the sort of business evolves as we know and we talk about these different stages and there's kind of the growth and the scale of everything as it evolves so do you as a founder right because you kind of you know there are certain times where you feel like you're maybe across everything in the weeds of everything there are times where you feel like okay I need to just maybe be perhaps a bit more creative or whatever your strong suit is or and then that can just do that at lots of different points how do you think your role has changed from those early days fast forward to now you just go from doing everything to being more specific and I think there's still things that you bring to the table that you maybe be more self-aware like I know my value added in every room and I think I'm more disciplined now to um Jen wants me to go to an event tomorrow night and I'm like there's no value added of me being there the team is fine do you know i mean yes um so just being disciplined with your time what you're what you're good at and what you're not being really just self-aware and what does that look like for you um a little bit in a hr room um making calls on that but i'm happy not to be so present in that but advising on it um product anything product um and shoot wise do you know i mean if i'm on set it's just so minor but i know that difference i make and again not taking away like my brand team and my product team are incredible it's just something small that i mean i'm 40 i've probably been doing for that length of time subconsciously or not um i've seen my mom sell someone two left feet in a shop i mean i know how to sell and i know how to um yeah i know what people would want in that yeah and that's your buzz do you still get the same buzz from all of that that that you did yeah if i'm on a shop floor i know i know what i'm doing i know my purpose sometimes like you say if i'm behind a laptop and i'm like what have i done today i feel drained but for what reason what yeah what is that value that i bought whereas if i'm on a shop from like ah i know the brand i know i'm good at i know what we're doing here yeah that's so interesting what so what kind of leader do you think that you've had to become like what if i was like sat here with your team what sort of leader do you think they would say that you are you can ask um i think just like i say i think the emphasis of just how we bake the value piece in and obviously i've i've decided on those values so number one is honesty and transparency that is that is anything like I said that clarity is kindness I think I'm quite um sometimes when someone new starts and they don't know or maybe they're not right for the business I think that directness catches them off guard a little bit but I think there is there is no benefit of me working around here like if I was to say to you if I was to hold up a dress and I was like do you like this and you're like oh yeah it's lovely that is of no benefit to me if you don't think that and I would challenge you on that and I would no longer come to you for your opinion yes i mean because i don't trust you i don't believe what you're telling me no matter what level you are in the business um everyone's voice in the business is very welcome um you need a safe space that you can challenge up challenge down um but yeah just be honest with me don't waste don't waste my time and for me and i say to team like it's a term of endearment if i'm really if I'm on you yeah if I if I wasn't fussed about you I'm not wasting my time with you yes but if I know that you've got something in you um I want to help you've got something yeah let's work with this and then we're not gonna time's too pressure I'm not gonna waste my time not doing it yes directly yes yes I love that how do you think I mean because there's no way it can't but how do you think motherhood has perhaps shaped the way that you approach business do you think that the way that as motherhood changed the way that you are with your team do you feel protective of your team in the same way that you would your babies um no have you read um terrible that I've forgotten her name now um mother mary comes to me she had a book out recently that's the name of the book it's a true story and she does her memoir she won a Nobel Booker Prize, her mum had a school and ironically she was celebrated for this incredible teacher to the school but was quite abusive to her, like she almost saw everyone as her children I don't know I don't think I would give special treatment to everyone anyone sorry I think I'm direct, if I care for you anyway, I would care for everyone that is in the business I would be direct with them just as much as I am with my kids.

38:23Yeah. Adrati Roy. Adrati Roy. She's an incredible author. Okay. Did motherhood change how I... No, it changes my understanding of why I do what I do. Yeah. I think before, because I set the business up before, and like we said before, maybe there wasn't so much purpose to it. And now, and I'm more protective, I think I mentioned earlier, protective of other creative outlets for me or what NFD is to me. Yeah. I think I was conscious of not being, hi, I'm Lucy, never fully dressed. Do you know what I mean? Okay, yeah, that is that. And then this is, I'm quite private, I think family-wise. Yeah, of what roles things play in my life rather than it being so blurred, which is really hard as a founder because your life and your home life and your work is so great because you can work 24 hours a day.

39:15It can really be as time. The kids are about to come on set or they'd work. So there's an element that is great, but I think of what it means to me and in my head I'm quite compartmentalised with stuff which is great that is that yeah even though physically probably less so to maybe someone outside but yeah I would quite channel that do you because we often speak on here about the idea of founders really and I think I think this is perhaps quite a female trait that if something hasn't and you know we all do every business has those moments that you're like oh my gosh that chapter and so please that's behind us or you know the fires that you put out and obviously there's daily fires but if there was a bit of a moment in the business that you're like oh this isn't happening how I thought it would be and it isn't landing right are you quite good at separating that this is no this is a moment that the business is happening that's happening in the business versus like I should have done this?

40:18Are you quite good at going, no, it's the business? Or do you take that home and is it way on you? Like, you know, fuck, this isn't, what have I done here? Or I've not executed that in the right way. Or is that where you're quite good at separating the two? Not anymore. Now I feel separate to that, yeah. But that's only come through maturity. There have been times, yeah. Like say that time when we came back from COVID and it felt really personal, I say, because there was personnel issues or from a HR point of view, I say I don't think we were hiring right or that felt really personal. I remember being really quite affected by that.

40:53And people might say something about me, you knew there was a little click at work or something and that was really not fun. Whereas I think, one, you need to invest in the foundation of why that happened, which we have since, do you know what I mean? In how we hire, what that culture is to avoid it. But equally, should something happen, yeah, I feel much more. You can remove yourself slightly. Yeah, but I think that's only come from maturity. I don't know what you could, how you could teach. Maybe there are tips and tricks of teaching that. Yeah. But yeah, I think that's just come over time. Over time.

41:24And also having those. Just tired. Maybe. I mean, sometimes it does you a favour being tired. I think because you, do you know what I mean? You're honest. You're like, because you've not got the time to waste. I think, yeah. Yeah, I need my sleep tonight. Yeah, yeah. And the best quote, and I would use this everywhere, don't think any less of yourself. Just think of yourself less. So yes, my worth is up here, but not putting, like, it's so liberating. And so you're not the most important thing or you're not. Everyone is the thing of their own story. It just takes it away. It's not about you. And I think that's something beautiful.

41:58I was talking to a friend the other day, like, of what siblings brings to you or whatever it like, because you're not the most important. I think that indulgent culture, which maybe we're out of, but that the last five years or so, I don't think is healthy personally. Agreed. And it's almost like stop thinking that everyone else is as worried about you as you are. You know, like sometimes people really like wear that, that they're like, what if this happens and people are going, I'm like, stop thinking. No one cares. They're so involved in their own life. Don't think in their watch. They're not watching you in the way that you think they are.

42:28No. Is it the DH? Sorry, I keep bringing these people who I don't know the name, so not helpful for anyone listening. Is it the DHL, again, the DHL founder? We're Googling. And he talks about, yeah, yeah. like in your 30s like you're wondering you're so nervous what people think of you in your 40s you think a little bit less of what people think about you and even your 50s you realize no one was thinking about you in the first place oh my god like it's so like no one no one cares about you in the way that you think and sorry you shouldn't yeah so I hate to break this to you it's humbling though like no one cares it's so important it's and I think it's really like it's a reassuring thing to know it's like and also like calm down no like no one is thinking about you the way that you're thinking about you yeah but i also like you say it's it's reassuring so it's a beautiful thing to know that actually just don't let that influence the decisions that you make and how you walk your life yeah i said like i don't know if you say to your kids do i mean that someone does something to you that's a reflection on them like your reaction to that or how you let that affect is that's on you yeah that that's what i i'm like that is one thing that i teach well more than one of many things i'm teaching particularly my eldest she's at that tricky age nearly she's almost 13 in a few weeks and it's that like good luck i get it is that i'm really in that at the minute and i'm like don't you can't change that you can't and i'm in that bit of stop expecting you of everyone else because you might not ever have done that someone and i love that about you but that doesn't mean you can't expect it you know and you're because you're going to set yourself up for a life of disappointment if you think well i would never have done that to them but and also not but the self-righteousness of thinking you're better than them because you wouldn't have made that choice you might made another choice that also they wouldn't have done maybe they're doing a choice that you don't agree with yes and that's okay and it's that it's the reaction thing and what you do like you say what you do with it from there and how you take that with you yeah is what you can handle but that is them let them be there again pretty biblical but yeah i say to my kids but I don't think they have a clue what I'm talking about.

44:28And I'm like, don't point out the splint in someone else's eye when you've got a log in your own. Do you know what I mean? Just chill in your place. And that's just with the siblings with each other. Excuse me, grass. Yeah, we opposite. My husband, if one of the kids, I would encourage them to come and tell me so they don't retaliate. If one of them hit one of them, I'm like, no, come and tell me rather than hitting him back. Whereas my husband would be like, hit him back harder. He would actually tell the kid off for coming to tell. he'd be like oh i'm sending you to your run for being a grass yes like mark we're telling him to do the right thing that's the essex like yeah he's peffinol green he's original essex exactly that um i want to talk about building you know you've built never fully dressed into something so recognizable like it is you you can see a piece of never fully dressed a mile off Right.

45:22Yeah, but I mean, so there are lots of things that are right, but it's so, it's so you and it's so clear and which I think is, is what you want when you build something, right? You need that clear vision and you need that sort of identity. I want to talk about Delores Studio because in... Cool. Cool. Go for it. It's exciting. You started that in 2024. And I'm so... Didn't I? Yeah, you did. I've got all your details down here. Oh my gosh, there you go. What inspired you to, we'll talk us through this first of all, but what inspired you to start something new at this stage in your career? Part of that piece that was saying how I protect that creativity in me.

46:06So I started doing acting lessons again. This was a couple of years ago. Yeah, I did a midwifery. Well, actually I've become a doula. Oh my, hang on, let me see what the hell. I love kids. I like learning, I like studying. So I always just want to be a midwife as well, but I did that instead. So just making sure I protect those other things in me rather than being in 10 years' time and like, oh, I wanted to do X, Y, Z. So jewellery, I just love craft. I love tradition. I love making stuff in my hands. So that was, yeah, probably I like booking stuff and being busy. And my husband is more than happy being horizontal.

46:35So that was probably, Dolores was probably to keep me married so I could just have something to do while he could watch telly. but then also yeah just unlocking a creativity which perhaps work becomes merchandise led or becomes buying led in certain phases it becomes hr led um and yes it's me in identity but i also have a different taste to nfd in some ways or how i would um do that so dolores was was a hobby and hopefully one day i'll just become a better jewelry maker it's literally that to protect that creativity in me. Obviously, the two brands serve different parts of you creatively. Is it the same customer?

47:14There's a crossover. Dolores, I say where I have no financial expectation of it at all, which again is liberating. Passion projects. Sometimes if I'm too busy, I just take everything offline. Yeah. I can't make it. I can't.

47:27Lucy Aylen: Yeah, I'm fine with that. I've got no. Yeah, I've got no goals with it in a way apart from truly indulgent I say getting to know it's feeding something in you metal better yes so that's all it is there is an element and I have made a range now like exclusively for NFD so we'll use that I don't even sell that with Dolores like we just sell that through NFD right because I can't how I make with Dolores we don't it's not tested like in order to sell in a bigger market we have to go through a lot of different yes more loopholes for that so um yeah so i sell that with them and then that's where we would style with it all the time and and there is that crossover yeah but it's a little bit more i'd say like fashion um dolores like i can go down a little bit more of a specific route actually nfd is really international but dolores is much more international there's not much a few uk like orders i get yeah it's more international like your customer can find you with social interesting actually i suppose because i've launched dolores in a social time that was very much Instagram first whereas that didn't exist when I I wonder if there's a difference there where I didn't like my customer confined me now with Dolores whereas with NFD the brand grew yes maybe you find your customer I don't know yeah but also you were you were telling people I suppose more so with NFD in the way that you were having to sort of like back then no Instagram no with NFD yeah yeah yeah so you're sort of telling there's more storytelling around it maybe yeah and having to talk a lot louder whereas you can be found yeah it feels a bit cooler you know and you're like yeah yeah yeah or like when like fancy people wear I'm like how have you found it I was shot with um uh Leandra Cohen in New York and um she was like oh yeah like she was talking about Dolores I was like no like you wouldn't like why would you know that like I've got like three followers and she's like no yeah yeah I was like yeah that's sick like how would you and also there's a crowd there's a crowd that really speak to that too that absolutely love that like buzz off of the fact that they're the person that put this on and found it so very indulgent do you know what I mean but fine like a little part of me that enjoys that yeah the complete elitistness that I just said I don't like at all do you know what I mean on a cool level sorry no but it's cool it is cool I like it I want to talk about because we you know the kind of a whole idea for this podcast is to really empower ladies and women looking to launch for anyone listening or watching who is thinking about building or starting their own fashion brand what's the first thing that you think people should focus on that perhaps they often overlook um i think understanding the why piece like i said i've very much more enjoyed the journey from let's say covid onwards mostly 2020 onwards yeah i feel like i keep using that for me um because it's felt much purpose more purpose driven right i understand why i'm doing things i understand why we make decisions or what what good looks like in those outcomes i think before that i didn't and it just well you were learning and figuring it out and learning it wasn't conscious yeah right so i think now i would say just um yeah knowing why you're doing something what success looks like because otherwise you can get so lost and um you won't get a sense of achievement or you won't get a sense of learning, like good or bad, whatever this is, because you don't know what you're working towards.

50:54Yes. So I think really establish that for yourself. And it could be, yes, you want to earn a million pounds. It could be, like I just said, with the jewellery, I want to become a better jewellery maker. It could be that you want to petition for a new law in parliament, whatever it is, but I think parliament, sorry, but be really clear on what that looks like for you. Yes. Because then every decision you make comes back to that and is really clear. Yeah, and it's like knowing that North Star, isn't it, from the jump. You touched on earlier that you've kind of, you own 100 % of the business and that's obviously something that's really important to you because I suppose you've had, you said it was in that same 2020 time that people were sort of telling you what the business is worth and how I suppose people wanting to come on board.

51:44Yeah, and it's continuous and I explore things. I have conversations all the time. I think if there's a time or a partner that feels right in order, again, understanding the why, and we do explore, we are exploring, yeah, operational partners of something that I think then we can accelerate a growth that I want or certain territories or people that can facilitate stuff. Yes, I'm open to that. So I don't think I'm proud of it that I own 100 % because I don't think, I think that's really rare to have built something. It's incredible, yeah. For that period of time. But equally, not... Not precious.

52:24Yeah. What's the word? Not, like, falsely proud or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I wouldn't... What's the word I'm looking for? But, yeah, I wouldn't just own 100 % for my own vanity. Yes. If it's not serving. It's not an ego thing. I believe in the potential of the business. Yeah, it feels nice, but I'd happily drop that if I think a different path could play out the growth that I think that transaction or whatever that could serve. Yeah, I believe in the potential of the business. It's much more my priority to see that play out rather than me owning 100%. Yeah, and if you feel like it's going to add value to what it is you're doing.

53:03Yeah, and again, Dave. I pulled Dave up a few times today. Ah, he'll like that. Do you know what I mean? He always said like you're... He's our mutual friend, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're much rather... You're better off owning 50 % of something worth. or whatever something delivering or whatever that achieves rather than 100 % of this thing nothing yeah exactly no it makes perfect sense but I wondered if it was something that was ever an option for you because you know we have some founders that are like I'm never interested in having you know anyone external come into the business or some people that are like I just it's just not happened yet but I wouldn't say no I just it needs to be right I suppose I'm neither of them one yes I have conversations I have had conversations for years my sister I've got i'm one of five so a few of my sisters a few my siblings work in the city and they're complete opposite to me one of them works for nfd and is creative like me whatever so they've wanted those conversations and i've even had conversations with other people or advised other deals without me being part of it i mean in that world so i'm very aware and privy to that world um it's just not right i just think for me it's and again super privileged super privileged but money is easier to come by than the expertise like an operational field that I think could excel our growth and coming back to that piece on like learning and wanting to learn from people and learn from experience or different setups that excites me yeah yeah I get that what version of yourself would you say that you're most proud of the one who started or the one that's here now I'd say now you could answer you could answer either do you know what I mean yes I'm proud of that girl for doing it but I think then I would have done anything I was just a bit of a go-getter and a yes do you know what I mean I used to just get up and go but yeah good luck to you for getting up and doing it yeah but no I think now I think I'm much more wiser and considered in how I approach stuff yeah what I would want to achieve yeah now Are you good with boundaries?

55:09Like when it comes to like that work sort of, I hate the term work-life balance because the balance is just not there, but that work-life blend, we'll call it. Are you good with boundaries? Are you quite sort of intentional with your time outside of the business? Yeah, I'm fine with that. But again, from maturity, in the last five years, three years even, I think much more conscious of that. And is it like what, protecting your time? You know, I only work until this time. Are you quite good at not being chronically online for the business? I think that's unrealistic, as in these are my hours that I work.

55:48But no, if I've got other priorities in my mind, tomorrow I'm not going to this event, my son's got a cricket match. Do you know what I mean? That to me is, but sometimes, if he's not very good at cricket or if it's a swimming gala that I know he's not fussed if I go anyway. I'll go to the event. Or like I said, the value added of me being at the event is there. I would be able to prioritise things. I know what I'm bringing to the room or to the table. But yeah, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, yeah, I'm clear. That's good. It's good. And it's such a nice place to be in. It's taken me time to get there.

56:27And I'm like, you know, it doesn't matter what would be asked of me tomorrow and it could be the best opportunity. But if it's, you know, the kids' nativity or whatever, like that is what's happening. But don't get me wrong. Like we've definitely lied to our kids and said their birthdays are on different days than what it is because I need to go on a trip. So no, I'm saying this like I'm this holy parent. No, but what I mean is you're prioritising your time and whatever, you know, obviously it goes about saying that our kids and our family are our number one priority. But in those moments, if you're clear on something, you will have a boundary for whatever that is at that time.

57:03I think it's just making sure, and this is across the business, across your life, making any decision. So it's a conscious decision. Yes. Not having something happen or me being somewhere that I don't want to be of no choice of my own. Yes. If I'm somewhere that I don't want to be because I think it's the right thing to do, then that's fine. It's a conscious decision. So you feel in control of where you are. Of making it. And what you're giving to something. Yeah. Because you think that's the right thing to do. I want to do our rocket round now, which is our quick fire round. Well, it's supposed to be.

57:33It's never that quick. Yes. The first question is, I ask each of our guests the same questions. The first is, what do you believe are the non-negotiables for running a business? Honesty and transparency. The values. Yeah. The values. Next question. When did you first realise that you truly launched? Launched, I would say, 2020. was there a was there a was there a moment that you can remember like where were you what were were you like okay this is landed

58:06no no there was a there was a there was a feature i did and bear in mind until this time like when i said i wasn't sorry we're going off the phone um i wasn't i never used to answer the phone until 2020 like when i say i wasn't present on social i wouldn't even go and get the pizza delivery like I wouldn't even um and Jen made me do an interview with the Daily Mail or something it was this big whole spread page of like used to do the markets now sells to Beyonce or something so not that I thought that that was like whatever like I've made it but I was like oh okay okay I don't know it's it's it's landed like people people are getting it that was fun when Beyonce warrior actually that was before yeah yeah yeah that was way before that actually wait a second talk me through that quickly this is not quick fire but how how does it get in the hands of Beyonce she bought it it was on a mannequin in Topshop and they closed Topshop for her um and she yeah she actually bought it she paid cash for it all the cash but like paid for it which is before I suppose gifting before an influencer was a thing and I remember doing a shoot and the girl I was shooting with her friends all started messaging her like there was a picture of Beyonce coming off a private whatever in the thing.

59:19But, yeah, fine. But what does that do for you? Because I know that you're – Nothing, really. Nothing. I'm really not that fast. But fun. But, yeah. Because I think maybe if – not people in the room are impressed, but it's fun. It's fun because she could wear anything in the world. Yes. And has worn that. And has access to everything in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a choice. Like you say, actually. Yes. They said she asked them to take it off the mannequin for her. It was the last one. We'll take that. So fun. But that would be on my tombstone. Just so you know. Just so you know, Beyonce, what am I?

59:49Just so you're right. Next question. What's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? Kiss the kids. Best. The best. And I say at the minute I'm sleeping with Forrest, my daughter in one blow-up bed, the boys are there. But they would know, even if they woke up before me, that they would come to say good morning, have a kiss before they sneak out and watch things they're not allowed to watch. Yes, yes, before they find the iPads. what is one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to

1:00:23super sorry to be thing but I actually I don't I don't think that's right I think anything again without being like you don't you don't lose I mean you win or learn like anything even if it's a mistake even if I shouldn't have done it if I shouldn't have invested in it I shouldn't have made that dress making that dress um has made me know not to make 10 of those dresses when the stakes are much higher yes i'm better off not designing that range now of like we've developed crap ranges i mean that flopped good job i'm not doing that now when i book 10 times more volume than i did then yeah so we say we've actually got it on the sticker at work um a smooth scene ever made for a good sailor i mean i don't want a heart surgeon to work on me if they've never had a mishap in the operation room before.

1:01:10Yes, yes. Do you know what I mean? It's all learning. Yeah. And it's not seeing it as I wish I didn't. It's like, well, now I won't do this. Yeah, yeah. I think you're much better off learning from all of that. Yeah. Reframing it always. A skill that you'd love to learn? I'd like to play the harmonica better. Every year. I've probably got one. I'm not joking. I've probably got one in my bag. Stop it. My brother used to have one. I don't know if he used to go clubbing. My brother, just out of just pure whatever, used to have a harmonica in his pocket. I love this I should bring a harmonica out I don't know why I've always wanted to learn the harmonica well there you go yeah why not I know I just don't now's a better time I can do like happy birthday we all have our own instrument that we can do happy birthday so if it's like a happy birthday in the family okay someone will go on the piano I'll go on the harmonica someone will go on the guitar someone will go on the tambourine this is so good and that's our little like Osmond moment yeah that's all we can play all of us that's all we can play on that one instrument let's just hope it's your birthday yeah yeah we can't do anything a few Bob Dylan tracks your best of birth yeah i like it i like it something that you wish that someone had told you before you started out don't do it um maybe that maybe everything we've discussed i mean like just and enjoy the process enjoy it if you're not enjoying it after and i'm not being precious like after a certain period of time question what you're doing question if you understand the why again um yeah yeah enjoy it like you say there's when it's happening and there are fires to put out and it's sort of you know it each day sort of takes over the next and like okay that's a great moment but we're now on to this thing if you don't enjoy the process and enjoyment for me doesn't necessarily it doesn't mean that we're all skipping in having lollipops and like like i say i enjoy learning so just progression like when i have that with staff it's um it's not that something's easy you don't want it to be easy but it's the progression that i would enjoy yeah no matter what form that looks like but yeah sometimes just laughter yeah yeah because some i think a lot of the time now particularly now people focus on the end and like this will be really fun when or this will be this will be really good when this happens or when it never happens exactly the goalposts have moved like you would have said whatever your goals are for for your family or for or cocoa whatever it is like yes but then it changes that's not the that's not the goal anyway so enjoy enjoy the process exactly that um what would be i mean we've already spoke beyonce but what would be do you think the dream collab whenever fully dressed whether that's like a brand on brand collab or yeah i think it would be the community piece so for me so brands i would I think empower women.

1:03:56Yes. I think Nike specifically, do you know what I mean? In that, yeah, real empowerment piece or like a dove from a diversity inclusion piece. Oh, I could really see that. I could really see that. And like a bright, crazy bottle. Yeah, fun. Yeah. Rather than I think a product club sometimes I struggle with when we've done them in the past. We do them for charities a lot, like with charities, which is great. but it's yeah I think if it's other areas I struggle with how we make them work right yeah so I think more of a brand piece that is a feeling or something that you can evoke together and bring in two of those together yeah I love that and lastly if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be my mum oh that is so nice yeah that is so nice she's cool and what do you what has she taught you if you're not going to dance don't come to the party yes uh nothing is a problem if one puts their trousers on the same way um yeah yeah she's cool ah yeah i love that i love that and each episode i ask our guests to leave a tip almost like if you're listening to this right now and you're looking at building something in perhaps a similar vein or you've got a similar background and you're like gosh I'd love you know an ounce of that success and how does she manage to do this what would like one piece of tangible advice be to a lady looking to launch specific on that what you're saying and I get a lot of messages you know like oh do you want coffee I want to start a business yes that's that's no good to me sorry I don't think this answers the question but also for advice for people listening yeah I'm really open and really open to helping people.

1:05:47But please, be really specific with what you're asking me. Do you know what I mean? I'm struggling with this form of digital marketing or I've got this hiring issue or this, I can't get, I can't reach the MOQs on this fabric. Do you know any ideas on how I can play with that? I can answer you then. I can voice note you back or I can be specific with how I can help. If you ask me how do you start a business, listen to podcasts like this or try and pull things together. it's that's too much to ask of someone and then you don't reply at all do you know what I mean yes just on a personal level yeah come to me with a specific question and I can really help that's actually such good advice in itself by the way because actually when like you say when people communicate there's nothing worse than a message that says hi can I just pick your brains on should we meet for coffee because I want to find out and it's like no everyone's time is so limited and you want to help as many people as possible but give me an answer that I can really help you in.

1:06:46Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, because like I say, I know my value added. If it's not an area for me, like sometimes I say, okay, no, but this person in my business I can set up, like you can come and they can answer you or whatever it is. So like you say, you're open to helping, but sometimes you can't help if it's so broad. You don't know what stage someone is in their business. You don't know how relevant your input can be. Or maybe I know someone actually that is in the stage that you're at and they might be able to advise better. so be specific maybe that is the answer to the question I think that's really good advice because I used to like I said when my other siblings were in that world and could network that hey I'm so and so and they like I used to be really embarrassed and just thought I knew how to tie a wrap skirt do you know what I mean I'm sorry I don't talk that language and maybe it is being a woman maybe it is being British or a Catholic or just being self deprecating whatever it is all of that so don't be afraid to network like really do that but then also be really specific because you're asking if someone's busy you're asking yes because I think people are really much more supportive than I used to think people were agreed um because everyone needs that network I think that's probably not not done me a favor in because I never worked through another business yes I was a waitress or whatever I never understood that working up through a business or that networking piece so um everyone needs that network to get where they're going don't be scared to network the worst someone could say is no or don't get back to you or whatever it is they don't reply fine but be specific in what you're asking for people and it'll be much easier it'll make the person helping much easier to help you which means it's probably going to take less of their time and they'll respond quicker exactly that rather than going how can I start and you feel terrible sometimes it's an essay and you think oh that's so lovely I really want to help you but it's too emotional already sorry this is horrible and I say I'm quiet thing but like it's too emotional i've got to address all of these your other issues before i get to this thing which is that's the piece that i can add it could just be hi lovely hope you're well i just i've got a question yeah i'm really struggling to get fabric in yeah i want to make you have any advice to yeah but i i can't get there whatever it is yeah and then you could like you say you could be clear i'm a really practical person yeah but it makes sense and i think most people actually truly are and that would it's those kind of vague approaches that actually put people off and you don't you want to help and you've got the best intention but it's kind of how long's a piece of string yeah you know yeah um and then lastly i ask everyone this question because we talk about ladies who launch but when it comes to being a lady who lunches how do you spend your lunch hour is that even a thing yeah yeah um but most of your people say what is this no do you know what it's a real mixed bag some people really their culture in their workplaces like we are we really are strict on lunch and I've had people that have you know have got made these long tables in their office and they make it's a conscious effort that everybody sits around and which which I really which I really really like the idea of um and then some people leave the office and go out for a walk and grab something but they just make the choice step away some people like what the fuck is lunch and I'm shoving something in my mouth through the next zoom so but there's always i always say if i was your assistant and i want to make you happy and i'm like listen she had a busy day i know she's going to eat this what are you eating what should i be getting you and where would you eat it my sister yes actually jem i normally either eat jem has leftover tuna mayo right she'll only eat half okay i hate waste yes i'm like well i'll eat the rest of that waste not want or yesterday is exactly your example i was back to back in a meeting so my sister got a chicken escalope coleslaw roll thing yeah so i literally had two bites in between each meeting which was incredible yeah but either or we've got an office so we've got an office in essex and in shoreditch yeah so now the office in shoreditch is like a mindful of what you can get to eat every day so that is the whole topic of conversation i bet so that is yeah we're still in exploratory we're still in like what's available yeah yeah yeah i've not exhausted it yet so I'm not too strict I'm not a massive foodie right like my husband's a foodie I'd rather just not have the mess like if he that's his love language like do you the favour and cook everything like oh I love it yeah I'm like I'd rather not eat and not have the mess yeah please it's more washing up I'm the opposite I'm like give me all the choice yeah yeah so I can be mixed with food I say I'm not that fussed I eat for hunger do you know what I mean for survival rather than pleasure.

1:11:19Yeah. Oh, I wish that was wide that way. No, I wish the other way. I'm so wasted. Everything I do is like... It's for pleasure. Anything celebratory. I'm not a hedonistic. Anything that's sad, like it all will centre around, oh, do you know what? I need to cheer myself up. Let's have a nice bit. This is my husband. He's so... Yeah, I want to celebrate. If I'm not well, what have you... You need to eat? Like, it'd make a soup, but like everything would then come back to... Yeah, quite old-fashioned. That's me. It's food. I'm happy when I'm fed. You know when they say, like a man's heart through his stomach I'm like no Rochelle's heart I suppose like I say I would that thing of I would need to paint or something like if I'm not I don't know it's a different outlet yes I go for a run I don't know yeah that helps you clear your mind yeah I love that see that's where yeah I think it must be a thing I can't going for a run doesn't clear my mind it gives me a list okay so I don't get that like oh I went for a run and now it's great I get that in Pilates or like a workout where I'm yeah yeah it's so interesting isn't it yeah we're in the run i'm running and i'm like oh i haven't done this i haven't done that i'm quite slow so i can make the list while i'm running i'll do my food shop while i'm running you know i'm not that fast so then that to me doesn't clear my mind i want to just not think yeah you know like in when i do a class and they say don't they say what is it that you're so in your body that you're out of your mind you know like when you're concentrating and you can't think about anything else because apart from that you're in a position i love that that's so good for me my little brain that doesn't switch off um thank you so much i've loved talking to you and like i said it's so incredible to see like from afar and from the outside what you've built and what you continue to build and i love it i love it to see good people win and it is honestly it's so so nice to see so thanks for sharing everything with us

1:13:16Don't forget to follow us on Apple and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you don't miss out because next time I'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched. If like me, you're a watcher, then follow us on YouTube and please don't forget to like and subscribe.