Ep 13: How did Maria Hatzistefanis build a beauty empire from the ground up?

0:12My guest today is an unstoppable force in the beauty industry. From starting out as a journalist, she feels he took a leap and founded not one, but two iconic beauty brands that are now global empires. Known for an unapologetic approach to business, she's authored bestselling books which have inspired countless women to chase their dreams. Please welcome to the podcast, Maria Hatsa-Stefanis. I always like starting these conversations by first of all saying thank you for coming, because I appreciate how busy everybody is and how precious your time is when you're not in demand. So thank you for being here.

0:50I also like starting by going back to where it all began. And for you, that was being born in Greece. And then you've, I mean, you've always been really candid about, I suppose, your unconventional journey into business. So you grew up in Greece, moved to London, Started out as a journalist. How did it all happen for you? I was always passionate about fashion and beauty. And I studied English literature back in Greece. But I wasn't really into studying. I wanted to work. I wanted to experience the world. And I thought all I wanted to do be a fashion editor. So I got a part-time job at Seventeen Magazine back in Greece.

1:42And I was doing freelance bits and pieces, some fashion, some beauty. And I thought I was going to do a career in fashion, but actually I was really drawn into beauty. Picking a product, trying them, interviewing everyone from the beauty industry. And that was my first interaction with beauty. Now, I didn't know what I wanted to do. But when I graduated, business was drawing me in some capacity. I said I needed to know more about business. I need to study business. So I went to the U.S. and I continued my studies. And when I graduated, that's when I was extremely confused. All my classmates were taking jobs in banking or consulting.

2:32and I thought, you know what, this is what I need to do. I've just graduated from a business degree and took a job in banking that brought me to London. So I started working in banking and at the beginning it was all very exciting. I was learning a lot, wearing my Prada suits. It was a very high-flying environment. But a couple of years into it, I started working on deals with insurance companies and the automotive industry. And I thought, you know what? I need to really care about the subject. I like certain elements of business. I like certain elements of finance, but I need to care about the end product.

3:13And so I started being a very bad employee. And when you say bad, what do you mean? I mean, when you work in a bank, you tend to work long hours, cancel your holidays, work weekends. And I stopped doing that. I was doing my nine to five and that was frowned upon. You almost stopped going like the extra mile. Exactly. And I feel that when you stop caring about your job, it shows. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Like that is when that spark is gone, you can't hide it, can you? You can't hide it. yeah I'm a lot of things but I'm not a good actress so I started yeah just not being into it not having the passion and everyone else was working 24 7 and into it and one day I was called into the boardroom and got fired.

4:08Did you feel that coming? Sometimes you know you you're not putting a hundred percent of yourself in and you would know that but did you realize that everybody else clocked it? Did you think, okay, I'm not going to get away with this for very long? I knew that. But I also wasn't brave enough to quit myself because I didn't have my next move. I knew I didn't want to go into another bank or be into the corporate world. I knew that, but equally, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was in this limbo situation, waiting for something to happen so I can take action. Yes, because it's hard to give up that security of a great job.

4:51And, you know, because you're comfortable, right? And it's always hard to give up that. A hundred percent. Especially at that young age, I had a good salary. I was renting a nice flat. So I didn't want to lose that either. So I got fired. I was in shock for the first week. I you know because I was always a good student I was always someone who wanted to do well for themselves so failure wasn't in my script and suddenly I got fired which is one of the worst things that can ever happen to you to your confidence yeah it's really shocking and was that kind of the first sort of taster of rejection for you because we all have that moment where you're like it just it does quite a thing to the ego doesn't it when massive whether or not it's valid and like looking back through the lens of success and like you know the older you you can say well obviously I was a bit of a bad employee I can see why I got fired but at the time what did that do to you?

5:51I was very embarrassed I mean first of all I didn't tell anyone outside my husband my family I didn't tell my friends I said I resigned because it was very embarrassing for me And for the first time, I admitted that I was fired when I wrote my book a few years ago. Up to that point, it was something I was holding inside because it was shocking. And what I did, and I know I talk about it quite lightly right now, but that's over 20 years ago. I took some time off and I just needed to realize what I wanted to do with my life. so it wasn't that I got fired and I started my business the next day it took a few months I was living on a shoestring budget because I hadn't suddenly I had to save I had no income but I would go to a gallery one day or go and wonder take a walk and go attend the conference so I just gave myself three months to and I would have given myself more but it took me three months to really just see who I am and what I wanted to do next and was you quite because I think that's quite interested and a lot of people have would have been in that transition where you know whether you or not you resign or whether or not you do get fired giving yourself time and allowing yourself that time to breathe were you quite strict with the fact that okay this is only going to be three months and I've got three months to figure myself out or was that something that happened naturally it happened naturally I would have taken more time if I needed to right but at the end of three months I had the time that I needed to digest what was going on and during that time I started researching starting my own business.

7:38And did you have a good support system around you around that time? I don't necessarily mean financially I mean emotionally. Were your family supportive of the potential of a new venture? Yeah my family was always supportive My parents, they were teachers, now they're retired. They knew nothing about what I was doing. I was telling them, this is what I'm doing. They're like, okay, good luck. But they did not understand what I was doing. So I had the support from them. I had the support of my husband, who I was living with at the time. And he's like, you know, do whatever you need to do. We'll figure it out.

8:26you're a survivor. You'll find what you're meant to do in your life. So I had that support, but then equally, I wasn't going to be that person that would take years and years of having a leisurely life I couldn't afford to. I needed to get back into action. And during that time, I was very inspired by a lot of beauty startups. At that time, Marsha Kilgore was starting Bliss, her first beauty brand. I loved Bliss. Yeah, it was such a defining moment in the niche beauty business. There was Janine Lobel, who just started Stila. There was Bobbi Brown, who just had started her namesake range. And I was seeing a lot of women who were building beauty brands.

9:16nothing like today today the market I feel it's oversaturated but back in the day if you were a beauty brand founder you were one in a handful so so interesting isn't it it's yeah but it almost I suppose like you say is quite oversaturated now but that that period of time when you speak of Bobby Brown and those big those big brands and you know I spoke to Joe Malone on the podcast that period of time, I suppose, actually changed the landscape for female founders and for the beauty industry, right? It was the first time that you would see female founders starting something in the beauty industry.

9:58It was the first time. It was a revolution and then things moved over to other industries. But I was super inspired and there were a lot of makeup brands. there was Bliss, which was baddie. But I felt what was missing from the industry was a skincare range that would offer targeted treatments to specific skin concerns using unusual ingredients. Because back in the day, I'm saying this now and everyone's going to be, yeah, whatever, like every other brand. But back in the day, what you had, just imagine you had the Clinique three-step system. the cleanser was a soap there was a alcohol toner and there was one single moisturizer you're so right that's the basics that i think my mom taught me cleanse tone and moisturize that that's what all the brands had the estelot and lancome these were all the brands you only had three products skincare was very basic and so my idea at the time was very unique and then coming in and launching with the snake serum, dragon's blood, bee venom and using ingredient led stories to launch Rodial.

11:10That is what put us on the map. So that's how it all started. I mean, it's a brave and bold move. But I suppose you know, at that point, if the market looks a certain way to make any sort of cut through, you're going to have to be bold and you're going going to have to bring a completely different offering was when you approach people to come on board and we'll get into how that started in a little bit but was there reluctancy from people to be that kind of unapologetic and outspoken with and different was there was there a kind of a little bit of resistance from anybody that you were working with or did you have to convince people to get that over the line yeah a hundred percent and i always say when i hired the right people that i couldn't even afford at the time this is when i saw my business go to the next level but at the beginning i had to hire people with passion who weren't necessarily the best people on paper just because someone from a secure job in a secure company with a pension fund and And all the perks, I could not offer any of those.

12:23So I could only attract a certain profile of an employee who was passionate, didn't necessarily have the education or the experience. But I was hiring personalities. I wasn't hiring skills and background. That's interesting. And it worked really well because we were a bunch of crazy people having crazy brainstorming meetings that led to something. Yes, yes. So at the beginning, it was hard, as you say, to convince people. I remember there was once I had an interview with someone who was going to work in one of our stores, Harrods. And I really wanted him. I knew he was great at sales. So we had the interview.

13:08And I gave him the offer. And then he calls me and says, Maria, I can't do this job because Harrods requires me to wear a suit and I don't have a suit. So I said to him, well, let's go and shop for a suit for you. And we go to Mark Spencer and we find the suit. He buys the suit. We're all good. And then he was going to start the next day and I get a call from Harrods. He never showed up. So, you know, I went really low, you know, imagining trying to hire a sales consultant, go buy him a suit and then he doesn't even show up. So, you know, things like that when you're starting a business made me extremely humble.

13:51Yes. And, you know, I've seen it all. Yeah, I bet. I bet. And those little moments that you think, and I have this where I think, I would never do that to somebody. And I've said this before, that you expect you from everybody else. And you find out very quickly that that is not the right thought process to have. you need to almost expect the worst and be surprised later, you know? Totally, yeah, 100%. Who was your first port of call when it comes to building a team? Because like you say, you've got all of these incredible ideas, this possible cut through and something that you know that you're passionate about and something that's going to disrupt the whole skincare industry.

14:32Where did you first spend your money? Who was your first hire? Sales and new business. So this is a side of that, which is the key thing. I had a part-time accountant. So I was doing pretty much a lot of the product development, dealing with the warehouses, design. I was doing a lot of that. I was doing some PR as well. I didn't want to deal with accounting because that wasn't the best use of my time. So I had someone do that part-time, but that wasn't going to change the business. It would just allow me to focus on the things that I'm good at. And then from day, maybe not day one, but day 90, I went and hired a head of sales.

15:21And I've always had this function in my business. Over the years, it had changed. So let's say at the beginning, I went to Harrods. There was someone who was running a department. And I said, come and be my sales manager. So giving someone the opportunity to be the head of sales as their first job in that capacity, but being in the industry. And then as the business guru, you're obviously looking for heads of sales who have dealt with international markets and they know retailers and they know how do you build a counter. So as the business grows, I still needed that head of sales, but they would need to bring different skills to take the business to the next level.

16:05Right. And for you, when you have this idea, so you've taken your three months, you found the thing, you found the thing that you're going to do, which is then Rodial. How long does it take to get it to market? Because I know how this looks and there's lots of testing and lots of formulations. When, what's the time period between those three months and the first product being available? about a year okay but at the beginning I made a lot of mistakes because I was cutting corners I remember our first packaging I got this top London design agency to design their logo and our packaging and the name Rodial is derived from the Greek word for pomegranate which is Rodi Okay.

16:55And so they were inspired by pomegranate and a lot of the colors were red and plum, but in a sort of rainbow situation rather than clean. And the logo was a handwritten style. Like a sort of sketchy. Sketchy. Very, very light. It looked amazing on paper. We loved it. Printed everything. we were doing an exclusive launch with Selfridges the product goes on the shelf it was impossible to read you know you were three meters away and you would see a block of color you couldn't see the logo you couldn't see the beautiful sketch so that was a disaster I had to go back to the drawing board I exhausted all my design budget and so I went to the local called Quick which was sort of a local printing store.

17:49And I sat with their printer and I actually designed their audio logo as it is now. So you can read it. We sold through that packaging and then had to start again and come up with something new. But I made a lot of mistakes at the beginning to be where we are today. I think the business right now is a lot more sophisticated and there's a lot of great people out there and mistakes like that don't happen anymore. but back in the day it's you're you know now you say you're reinventing the wheel we're starting the wheel there was no wheel there was no wheel there was no wheel we're just starting from scratch there's no benchmark there's no benchmark and it's now I have um someone in design I have a design team in house and they were doing a presentation the other day to the team and they were saying everything with design needs to look good on the website but also when you are in a store and you're far away it needs to look good from far yeah that is now you don't even think about it yeah 20 plus years ago it was all brand new first was no one was launching beauty brands so you're so right it's now just part of the dialogue and little things that i i learned really quickly that actually you'll you'll develop this product packaging you're very happy with it and then you put it on a shop floor and even the lighting can change how it looks there's there's so many different layers to it that I guess like you say when you're learning on the job as it were you're not to know when you are sort of uncovering those mistakes how do you deal with how do you deal with those situations as a person are you quite okay guys on to the next thing or are you the panicker I used to be the panicker because at the beginning everything was a life or death situation because there was no budget and every mistake was very costly to us.

19:43Now, I know that, yeah, okay, it's a mistake. We'll pay for it. But that's part of doing business. Yeah. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. And there's always a little bit of a budget, let's call it for mistakes that we need to like a safety net. I think it's so interesting to say that because you see this glossy product on the shelf as it is now and you when everybody's starting out and you know embarking on their own venture and they're a small business they see a brand like yours and you think oh my gosh I'd love to be a roadie or one day but I think it's so important to consistently spread the message that it isn't linear it really isn't and I think there's a lot of pressure particularly women put on ourselves to have everything all figured out what would your advice be to somebody that is kind of trying to find their own path but actually can be really distracted by the noise what would your advice be um there was a time that i was one of those people it was a few years ago when millennial pink was the color to be was the gloss years of this world who the beauty everyone was doing millennial pink and we're doing bright colors we have the dragon's blood red we have the beef Venom Yellow.

21:03And we were out of fashion completely. So I was following all these brands and getting panic attacks every day and sitting down with my team and saying, we're not trending anymore. Do we need to change our packaging? Do we need to become another brand? And we sat down and we realized this is who we are. We can't be chasing the trends. We've been around for a very long time we do have our customer we do have our dna um and from that minute i unfollowed all the other brands uh so as not to wake up every morning and see them on my feet and get distracted um and decide that this is who we are this is our dna and we know who the rodial woman is we are going to create products for that rodial woman and we're gonna have to ignore the noise so for me for anyone who gets um distracted by what's going on around them just cut the noise just be who you are and the true dna of your brand or whatever project you're working on will come through if you just literally put aside the noise and don't look at it and there'll always be competition there'll always be people that launched after you that are you know doing something a little bit close to you but not quite like how you're doing it is you kind of sort of have to have that tunnel vision and focus on who your brand is and who your dna is and who your customer is you're right because it can be so easy to kind of look left and right and not focus on you because people will always reinvent the wheel and put their spin on something and that's kind of the beauty of a constant evolving market you've just got to stay true to who you are and your customer a hundred 100%.

22:45And also the customer needs consistency in a world that there's so many beauty brands right now. They need to know who you are. If you keep on changing and you need to reinvent yourself up to a certain degree. I like what Virgin Ablo said when he was designing for Louis Vuitton. He said, we only need to change 2 % per year. That's the change. And for me, that stuck with me that if you want to evolve a brand you can totally reimagine yourself and I've seen brands totally reinvent themselves and then they lost the original customer it was hard to get back yeah you're so right Rojo from the outside just seems like it's continued to have this like rocketed success it honestly is one of and I you know that I'm such a fan it's one of my staples in my home and it always has been and what I think just being a fan and gushing for a minute What I think you do so well is I love it.

23:46My mum loves it. My little sister loves it. You have managed to really capture, you know, the woman or everybody, you know, and I think that is what you do so well. How is there a strategy behind that or is that kind of a really happy accident? It's probably a happy accident. Which we're very thankful for. So we do design for the Rodial Woman, who is a working woman. She's sophisticated. She wants products that work, but she doesn't have the time to sit down and do a seven-step Korean regime. I wish. I wish I did. Yeah, we all wish. So we know who we create products for. But what happened the last few years when we came up with complexion with the likes of Banana Lowlighter that's become viral.

24:37Very good. The lip oils, the blush drops, which we have created for the Rodial customer, it kind of seemed that we attracted a younger customer with those complexion products because of the immediate effect. And also complexion makeup moving away from the heavily sculpted layers of makeup, powder. Like that Instagram makeup, the contour, the harsh. You know, the Kardashian makeup that we've had for years, that it was a look that took hours to create. And everyone's moving into more natural shears and glosses. And we created that for our customer, but we see that it's resonated with a younger customer as well.

25:19So I feel the complexion part of our business, which is still quite tiny and we want it to be like that, it's attracting a new customer. So it's a happy accident and we're happy with it. I bet you are. So Rodial is thriving. having lots and lots of success and then you create nip and fab which is so genius to me how was this idea born so um we've been contacted by boots that was about 10 years ago and they wanted to stock rodial which was quite tempting because you'll get into a whole lot of stores you get another customer, but I didn't want to compromise the quality of the brand, the fact that we are at the Selfridges of this world.

26:09It's a different price point. Yes. I didn't want to put it into Boots. And so we're having those conversations and they said there is a gap in the market for something like Rodial within Boots. And I came up with the idea and said, why don't we create a brand for you that has some of the DNA of Rodial but we're gonna do more basic formulas basic packaging and we're gonna price it for the boots customer this is just so brilliant so that's how the idea came up and looking for a name it's hard to find the name in the beauty industry if it's not your name it has to be something that makes sense so and something that's not taken it's not taken and And back in the day, there was this TV show called Nip and Tack.

26:58Yes. Which was the first show about plastic surgery. It was a bit weird. I may have watched a few episodes, not all of them. So everyone was talking. It was the first time everyone was talking about Nip and Tack. Yes, I remember this. And so I thought, you know what? We're offering targeted treatments. It's a Nip and the range is a serious skincare range. You're going to look fabulous. So we did Nip and Fab. So it's from Nip and Tuck and fabulous. And we've created that range, gave it to Boots. I don't know how it was going to do. We gave them a two-year exclusive. And then over the years, it got traction.

27:38Over the years, we reformulated the products. We moved away from the spinoff of Rodial into unique products like the glycolic range, the hyaluronic range, the peptide. The peptide. So it's now become its own brand. Its own baby, yeah. Separate identity. We have a different team. But when it started, it was just an idea. And I had no idea where it would go. I mean, it must be so amazing to get a call like that. First of all, the interest of mass. And I know with me, with my baby brand, when boots are interested, that was the dream for me. You know, 2 ,000 stores across the UK. that is you know that is the call that everybody wants to get right but to have that opportunity to then create another baby is so so brilliant and credit to the brand that you've already built for you as a founder how do you because you know tend into one and I always say baby because you know that they are your babies attending to one baby and then putting another one in the mix particularly at the start when you think it's going to be almost like the little sister brand, but then it has its own identity.

28:51How do you sort of make time to focus on two different brands that mean a lot to you and give them your everything? At the beginning, I was doing both. But for the last few years, I have taken a step back. and there's a separate team that deals with it, with a managing director, with a separate new product development team, design team. So it's run separately to Rodial and I'm involved to things like branding, overall look and feel of the brand, connecting it to the past. So we have that connecting link between when I started Nip and Fab and where it is now. But because exactly as you said, it's very difficult to keep your eye and manage two brands at the same time.

29:51I couldn't do it. I don't think if I did it, both brands would... Well, something has to give, doesn't it? Something has to give. So after a point, I realized I can't do this. I need to focus on one brand and obviously I started Rodial so my my identity is closer to Rodial I feel I know the customer a lot more and so it's sort of both brands are run separately and we found a happy place. Yeah and I think that is so important because like you say and it's only credit to the way the brand grows but when you start something and you think I can imagine at the time that the proposition is that it's the little sister brand that it won't it will be easy to do because we all think that we can do everything don't we we think we can walk every walk and I think it's quite refreshing to you say that actually something was going to give and you don't want to see any brand fall because you're sort of spreading yourself too thin and I think as women that we do do that don't we sometimes like I think that I can spin every plate and then I'm going to drop a few at some point no 100 and there was a time after nip and fab i think we got really um big in our shoes that we're doing the right thing and we launched a men's brand called nip and man and that totally flopped right um and that kind of goes to show you like you can't do it all yes you can't do it all you don't know every customer as well as you know your original customer and so we gave it a chance You know, still it launched boots and super drag, so it had a good start.

31:30But one, the men's business I find extremely difficult. That is a tough nut to crack, isn't it? It is very tough. And how many times people, oh, would you do a men's range for Rodeal? I'm like, no way. Forget it. Men's skincare is such a difficult business. But also, I don't know the customer enough. And frankly, I don't want to know them. And if we're basing it off of my husband, they just take my things anyway. they're not interested in investing in their own they just want mine so it's sort of i feel that we need to be true to what we're good at who we are i can only manage one brand yeah that's what i do and then the rest um finds yeah absolutely that absolutely that when you talk about the customer and the customer that you have known so well after 20 years right there has to be sort of lots of different avenues to reach that customer in 20 years I can imagine you've there's been lots of different strategies and different approaches year on year what has been something that has worked incredibly well and something that hasn't for Rodial so before the pandemic we were purely a wholesale brand meaning the focus of the business was selling at retailers.

32:54And everything we did, whether it was a press event, whether it was digital market, anything we did was driving customers to the stores. Right. With COVID and the lockdowns, when all the stores suddenly closed and we needed to get revenue for the business, suddenly we're like, okay, well, our website now, it's the only thing we have. We have to make it work. And suddenly we started thinking as a D2C brand. That's so interesting. And it's due to the lockdown and the pandemic. So then we started working more with influencers and doing paid social and getting on that bandwagon. And that worked really well for a year or so.

33:39Then everyone got the word that paid social media is the way to go. So everyone started going back on that. And it's at a point where customer acquisition costs are extremely high because everyone's doing it. So we took a slight step back from that and went back to live activations and doing events and creating communities and hosting networking breakfast and lunches with different people every time. Which the idea was, we want to introduce you to Rodia, but we want you to have a good time. We want you to meet a bunch of interesting women and make friends. And we've been doing this for about three years in London.

34:27We've done it in New York, LA, and internationally in a few places where we host regular events and they're networking. But also you can see a little bit of Rodial. I'm not a big, I'm going to sell you Rodial in your face. Yeah. sometimes i'll do an event and people are like yeah you know why don't you do tutorials and i hate it when you see people down like let me show you how to cleanse your face like i don't do that it's i feel that the best way to sell a brand is offer subliminal messages yes and this is a raw deal event this is your bag i can tell you a few things about the product but let's have a good time make those connections and this is something that really worked for us post pandemic and don't you think even like when you think of online that's you know the people that are at your event but when you think of online people can really you know it's not 20 years ago it's not 15 years ago people can really tell an ad apart from when someone's using something in an authentic way right and I think do you notice as as a founder that actually those the engagement for those kind of posts fall rather than the ones when someone is actually that actually probably hasn't been paid they might have been sent something or just using your product as a fan can you really see the difference a hundred percent and we've made mistakes especially when you first get into paid work with influencers where we work with people with millions of followers um but their audience wasn't our audience so right um we've done that and we saw there was no impact whether that was word of mouth or more clicks there wasn't so we we test everyone that we work with we do prefer people who already love the brand and there's a few people that we still work with right now that started from customers and they went they bought the product they did the video we loved it and actually we made the we made them think that this could be a career for them And there's a few influencers right now who started as customers of ours of the pandemic who have now developed careers.

36:42So it's, as you said, it's the affinity for a product. And the customers can see through all the clutter. They can see through if you're genuine about promoting a product or you've been paid. And I hate that when I see an influencer. So today I'm working with Rodia a week late. This week I'm working with this brand. I think the followers don't like that. I don't like it. No, you don't engage with it. I feel that if I buy something that you've promoted and I buy it, I want you to be using it in a few months' time. I want to know that you genuinely love the product and I bought it because I trusted your recommendation.

37:25And I feel that's how the customer sometimes feels cheated, that you buy a product and then the influencer isn't working with that brand anymore. They're on to the next. what happened and now I'm stuck with this product you don't like it anymore damn I spent my money on that um let's talk a little bit about celebrity partnerships yeah because we're talking big celebrity partnerships here we're talking the Kylie Jenners of the world yeah when did you decide that was an avenue to go down um so we've always been gifting Hollywood makeup artists Ah, smart. And this was even before the times of social media.

38:11And one of the makeup artists we were gifting was Mario. This is even before he became the Kardashian official makeup artist. And he took one of the Nip and Fab pads and gave them to Kylie, because this is a product for acne and for teenage skin, and she was a teenager at the time. That was 2015. um she used them and posted the story on her instagram this was before she became an influencer this is before she had her lips done highly before the kids all that um and suddenly we are getting a lot of attention um we're getting a lot of emails inquiries what is this brand from the us so um so we thought okay well let's just see if we can do something bigger with kylie we emailed Kris Jenner that day and I thought we're never going to hear back you know this is it and then we get a response the next day and we started talking wow so uh for me by the way that so interests me because I naively think you know when we hear people say Kris Jenner's the momager I I didn't realize how kind of hands-on she was yeah so it is her that you're talking to It is her.

39:29That's who you're talking to. And we got an email the next day. She was interested. So we put together an activation plan for her to come to London. It was March 2015. We had the contract. They agreed on everything. We planned a photo shoot, step and repeat with press. We had a tea party. She was going to do a Q &A at West, a whole day. We're paying for her day. We're packed to about 1 ,000 events to get the best of our investment. So agreed on everything. We paid the deposits, all that. 48 hours before everything started, they still haven't signed the contract. Oh, gosh. And this is what the Kardashian family does.

40:17They never sign contract until the last moment in case something better comes along. We were freaking out because we had every... I mean, you've been in the centre, you know how much work it is to organise all that. And I know how much back and forth there is with legals, you know, and how long that process takes. And they were easy at agreeing on everything. We had more difficult people over the years. They were very easy, but they were just not signing. And we're chasing every day. Why are you going to sign? Why are you going to sign? So 24 hours before the event, they sign the contract. Kyle gets on that flight from LA to London.

40:54she arrives the day goes perfect we did all with what we needed to do she was a professional even though she was just 16. That's which is so incredible isn't it? Yeah it is and it went so well that we did another activation with her six months later in LA so we went to LA and we organized everything and then a month later she launched her lip kit so that was the end of Kylie being an influencer in beauty. But you know, for me, it was the time it was being bold at asking the question. At the time before she became who she is now, we could afford her. We could not afford her right now. So it was a combination of things of being bold, being lucky, and the timing of it all and I think she also accepted this whole package from us because she was about to launch her lip kit and that put her in the map on being this yes beauty persona representing brands and it was the natural next step for her which happened like immediately the next month she had her lip kit yes so she's sort of smart so she's like putting herself in that space totally and I wonder if their sort of pause on signing it was whether sometimes you wonder if if her thing might have launched a little sooner or kind of how how that looks I think that she she was thinking about it she got inspired she got the confidence that she can do this went through the steps with another brand and then was ready to do her thing which took off and yeah it very smart very very smart I have to tell you one thing, how smart and how shrewd Kris Jenner is.

42:40Because they were talking about the lip kit on our second event. And I said, I would love a lip kit. So actually, I would love three to give to a couple of my friends. And I get the bag. And the courier says, yeah, this is going to be$100. And I had to pay for the lip kits. I had to pay for, you know, we've paid hundreds of thousands to give Kylie the campaign and I had to pay a hundred dollars for the lip kits. To accept the delivery. So, yeah. She knows business. She knows business, you know, nothing is free. And yeah, I wish I still kept those lip kits, but I gifted them. It's such an interesting story.

43:27And I suppose just on the flip side, it's really, it's really important to test your market. and that's kind of a real example that Kylie tested that market with you. Yeah. And poof, her own thing is born, which is pretty amazing. We're talking now 2015, you know, fast forward to 2025. You are still so relevant as a brand. I know we were talking nip and fab then, but talking rodeo. You are still so, so relevant. And I'm just so curious to know how, like, year on year do you look, how do you sort of keep your customer engaged and recruit new ones? Like all these years on, it's so, so incredible.

44:19It's hard. And what is even harder is when we already have a collection of 50 skincare products, what is the 51st product going to be that's so different from everything else? So we made a decision to revisit and talk about existing ranges. Every year we have an anniversary. So one year could be the bee venom, another the dragon's blood, another the snake serum. So instead of being that brand that launches new products all the time, there is an audience that when we first launched Dragon's Blood 10 years ago, they've been buying it for years, maybe on and off, but there's a new audience that hasn't heard of Dragon's Blood.

45:06So instead of launching new products that may or may not be successful, let's take our best sellers and re-educate new audiences and get them excited and passionate about them. So that's one strategy that we're using. And then I feel our complexion has been super successful. And that is a way that we can recruit a new customer because the price points are also a lot more affordable. You can see the results. So when we do a social media activation, you can see the banana lowlighter before and after. You want it there and then. And so it's a combination of still continuing our heritage skincare products, which are the core of our business, and coming up with a few trend-driven products that show you the transformation and are the quick purchase and something I need to have now.

46:03So it's finding a balance between the two. So I suppose it's continuously reminding people of, like you say, those heritage original products. And by doing that, you'll always recruit someone new, right? If you're always talking about the kind of hero products, you'll always recruit someone new along the way. Yeah, 100%. The products are still great. And, you know, for me, I'm also conscious about how much product do we produce for the world. We don't need a lot. So I'm conscious of that in my own life. My wardrobe is tiny. I have the 20 things I like to wear. Everything else goes. I can just imagine how chic this wardrobe is.

46:44I can, in my mind, I could just see this like chic power suits. Like, yeah, that's a whole job I want to see. It's small, it's clean. And if something I don't need or I would use it for one time, I don't buy it. So the same way I think about my life, my wardrobe, I'm a minimalist. I want to think about my business as well and the product. So sometimes my sales team is very frustrated because the more products you launch, the more orders you get from the stores. But I'm, yeah, if there's no space, if we're not excited about this product, if it's not going to add something to what we already have, I don't want to launch it.

47:27And I suppose it's hard because you're sort of teaching a customer a routine and this is what you need and you're very passionate about every product. and then it is confusing as a shopper it's confusing because you're like oh hang on I thought that was the face wash I was supposed to like why do I now need you know so it makes perfect sense over complicating it sometimes can be distracting I know that you're really passionate about women in business and really sort of championing that tell me a little bit about your book and why you thought that was important for you? My book, How to Be an Overnight Success.

48:07Genius name. Yes. And I put that title for a reason, because I feel that the younger generation of women want an overnight success and read about what's looking like an overnight success, which is just an overnight exposure. It takes many years, as we all know. And I wanted a title that a lot of young women will be attracted to because that's what they want. And on the first page, I say there's nothing like an overnight success. It took me 18 years to be where I am today. You can be successful. You can make your dreams happen. But it's a long road. There's a lot of ups and downs. You will get there, but not overnight.

48:56And for me, I just wanted to bust that myth of overnight success. And I have a lot of examples in there. You know, Justin Bieber is one of the examples. Like people think, you know, just woke up and he's been singing since he was 10 years old. Like his mom got him to do a YouTube channel. He was singing there. And so when we heard about him at, I don't know, 18, 20, I don't know how old he is now, a bit older. When we first heard about it, he's been singing for eight years and that's all he was doing in his life. But people think, oh, how lucky he is. He woke up and he's an overnight success. It's so true.

49:34It's almost like because they're now on your radar, you think overnight success. And you're like, yeah, overnight success took me 20 years. absolutely yeah so um what I've done with my book I wanted a very candid book about starting and growing a business uh and I'm very much a person who I talk about my mistakes I talk about what went wrong what I learned from it and the feedback that I get is because I know there's a lot of business books out there it's one of the few books that actually tells the truth yeah how I didn't have budget to have an office at the beginning because, you know, when I didn't get funding, it's, I'm still self-funded.

50:16I didn't have the budget. So I was doing all my meetings at Starbucks, you know, no shame there. A few years later, we got some more money. We got a nice office, but I feel that sometimes the idea of this female entrepreneur, it looks very glamorous. Yeah. You start and day one, you have this amazing office and you have an assistant and you have this amazing team and and you're going to press events and you look very glamorous exactly well I don't look like this um we actually said that when you arrived you said after this I'm going to the office so I'm actually going to go home to get changed quickly because we don't work like this yeah totally and and it just I wanted everyone to know exactly what it takes to own your own business you know I've spent during lockdown I went to the warehouse and I was packing orders because we didn't have enough people to do it.

51:09I've done so many things over the years to get the business running. Plus, you know, the mental element of it. I don't think people realize how tough it is and how mentally strong you need to be because with every challenge that you have, you may break down. And it's about, okay, well, let's just figure this out. Let's just move on. We'll find a way. I always say, if I haven't done anything illegal, there's always a way. Yeah. Right? Yes, you're so right. And I think you do overlook when you enter the world of business, like I had no idea of what to expect. But you literally take on every role at some point, don't you?

51:46Like there's, you know, I still am. So, you know, the cleaner, everything, like we have all been everything. thing you touch on funding there and funding is a conversation that we come back to time and time again it is so hard for women to get funding when starting a business how did that look for you and how as you say you're still self-funded yeah how did you find that because that is not easy by any means I wanted to get funding I presented I put a business plan together I presented to VCs and private equities. But back in the day, no one was investing in beauty businesses. It was unheard of.

52:29And I was a girl who was just fired from a job in banking. I didn't have any background in beauty. So I didn't have the credentials. It was almost like he wasn't a safe bet. Exactly. So I did believe very strongly in my idea. And I had the vision of this is going to be a great business one day, but I couldn't convince anyone around me. So started with, I had about 20 ,000 pounds of savings from my days in banking, started with that. I wasn't taking a salary and a lot of hand to mouth for the first few years. And I kind of got used to that right now. and I feel that one thing I learned is to be very disciplined with money so when you don't have a whole lot of funds everything you spend needs to have a return on investment yeah you can't just been spending on things that don't matter so that made me very disciplined and every decision we make we think of what the outcome is this necessary yes do we need it or can we do without it and I'm not saying over the years we've done things like you know fancy events that cost tens of thousands of pounds for no reason whatsoever and then you're like why did I do this yeah we we spend money on things that were unnecessary but I feel I have the discipline to look back and say well we didn't need that so going forward let's just be a little bit more strict yes yes it's it's so interesting because I've spoke about this with a couple of guests that actually and I spoke about it with Michelle Kennedy that actually women make up 85 percent of household spend actually at every home yet women get the least funding which is just it's outrageous it makes no sense.

54:25I think things are better now I do see a lot of female brands getting funding just because a lot of venture capitalists think this is a get-rich-quick scheme and we're going to invest in a beauty brand and get rich very quickly. Which must have changed so much since you launched. Totally. And a lot of people made a lot of money from the beauty industry. Quick, you know, buy a company, grow it for a couple of years and then make millions. It's a bit harder right now. I think that we went through a boom stage of funding up until a couple of years ago. a lot of beauty brands were getting funding.

55:05Now things are a little bit tougher. I think VCs want to see some positive cash flow. They want to see some type of profitability. And it's harder to get investment if the business is funding the growth and hasn't shown profitability yet. So there's still funding, but there's different criteria. Right. I want to do the rocket round now, which is a quick fire round. So I've got six questions for you. The first one is what are the non-negotiables for launching a business? Non-negotiables. A very clear idea of who your customer is. A business plan. It can be very simple, but you show where you're going to get your revenues over the first year and what your expenses are going to be.

56:00and the third be very honest about your strengths and weaknesses and find a way to fill your weaknesses either via a partner a consultant or an employee and just yes because I think that is something that you have that pride in you knowing what you're when something is your baby and your everything knowing what your weaknesses are and actually sort of passing them over and because you know finances for example are my weakness I know that that is not my strong point but at the start it's hard because oh no but I need to be across everything but actually no because guess what I'm going to go have a budget because I'm going to think a shiny event's a good idea and that's not going to put me in a good place so it's hard to sort of not micromanage but it is good to kind of sort of relinquish control a little bit yeah 100 % when did you first realize you truly launched when we launched snake serum it was the first hit we had and that was five years into the business and it was that defining moment and the risk in naming a product snake serum that create attraction and buzz when we didn't have advertising or marketing budget.

57:25Amazing that is so inspiring it just goes back to what you were saying that slow and steady does win the race. What do people usually seek your advice or help for?

57:38People in my business want to run through their ideas for a second opinion whatever department and it is I always have a common sense point of view that I feel helps them. For young entrepreneurs who are starting a business, a lot of them are asking me how do I know it's the right business for me. The answer is very long. A lot of people want to start a business, but they're not sure what type of business is right and if they're doing the right thing. I've found a lot of questions. Yeah. What brand do you wish that you'd founded? Oh.

58:25You know, it's hard to come up with a brand. I love the role. I think it's genius. And it's how a brand so simple can charge such high prices and we all go and buy them. More full of us. Right? You're so right. You're so, it's genius. It's a genius concept. I love the robe. And I feel like Wardrobe NYC is that similar kind of, the simplicity. I can see your wardrobe looks like that in my mind. Yeah, I have a few pieces from both. Yeah, both overpriced. Yes, absolutely. If you could choose one female figure as a mentor, past or present, who would it be? Anna Wintour, full stop. She is the ultimate, do you know the acronym HBIC, head bitch in charge?

59:24How she kept relevant for 50 years at Vogue, which generally it's a very man-driven business. Everyone behind her, it's all the committees, all the presidents, everyone, it's very man-driven and I've been reading all her biographies and I feel that the fact that she's kept relevant and she's so influential in so many worlds, it's truly inspiring. Yeah, she's incredible isn't she? Yeah. You know what's inspiring is that Bob, that Bob is always very sharp. You know what, actually, I had, there was a time I was going to New York a lot and I had my makeup done by her second makeup artist. So she has a first makeup artist and a second makeup artist.

1:00:15And I was asking her, is it a wig? She said, Maria, absolutely not. It is her real hair. She has it blow dried every single morning. And she also has her makeup done every single morning. So that's how she goes to the office. Oh my gosh, we need to learn from her. We're getting changed. We're about to put our tracksuits on to go to the office. If you could trade one of your current skills for a superpower that would help your business, what would it be and why?

1:00:46I wish I studied digital marketing the way the kids studied now and artificial intelligence and all that shit. I'm trying to catch up it's hard but this is a skill to have in 2025 yeah totally that now it's time to leave a tip and each guest I sort of want the listener to take away something really tangible so if you could leave one tip for our listeners that would could really help when I suppose launching maybe a business or a career or they're going for that job promotion what would one tip be that you would you would give them uh set a deadline a lot of the times and I see this with myself when I want to start a project whether it's writing a book or starting a new product idea or doing something new.

1:01:52As with everyone, procrastination takes over. And then sometimes we all wait for the perfect moment to be ready to do it. Once you set a deadline, and that's a deadline to yourself, or you send an email to someone and say, let's just start talking about this on that day, then something happens. Like immediately you start thinking, what are going to be my first steps? And even if you don't complete the project on that deadline, it's the deadline to start whatever you want to do. So take the first step, whatever that is. And for me, just sending that email. yeah so I'm currently writing my fourth book and I've been procrastinating for a while for a few months and but I have written a little bit of it so I said I'm gonna send an email to my book agent and tell him about it so maybe he'll give me some motivation in some capacity so I sent him a note I've started writing my book I hope we can launch January 2026 the book is nowhere near finished to know when it's going to launch.

1:03:07Immediately he emails back and he says, oh, funny, I had a meeting with our publishing house, Penguin, and they were asking, when is Maria going to write her next book? So I'm like, I needed to see that email. I needed that communication. And now I'm on it and I'm writing and I'm getting onto it. So it's that. It's set the deadline. Take the first step, take some action, and you will get there. You will get to the project you will get to the business you will get to that one thing that is important to you but you've been putting off yes that is that is such good advice because it's so funny what can happen yeah when you give yourself a deadline it's almost like pressure but in the best way like you were saying that before um with your studio yes yeah you created the studio because one of your guests said uh i can only record that day and you put it together quickly and then you started recording and here we are and now we are now we're series two exactly that um well I promised myself when I did this that I would find out how everybody spends their lunch hour because I'm so interested in a lot of us work through it or some some people make a real conscious effort to take that space how do you spend your lunch hour what do you order how does how does lunch look like for Maria um so um if i'm at the office i would order a salad with lots of green stuff and tofu and chicken and some protein that's my typical lunch um i usually eat lunch very quickly so i'm a quick eater so in 10 minutes it's done i probably scroll through instagram and i'm getting ready to do a meeting.

1:04:56I don't like to take a big lunch break. I like to work straight through. So I'd much rather go to work at 11 and finish at four and not sort of be from nine to five or whatever and take an hour. So I like to work straight, do my meetings, do my work. I don't stay at the office if I don't have anything, if I don't have a meeting, if I'm not working on something on my computer so lunch break is real quick but I prefer to see friends and go out and have a proper lunch and it could be a business lunch it could be inviting a bunch of girlfriends of mine to escape the office and have sort of a nice break yeah so it depends where lunch is but it's yeah work I usually work straight through thank you so much I've honestly loved this it's been so interesting to chat to you and learn more and more about you you've been a dream guest so thank you for coming on thank you for having me

1:06:01don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure you don't miss out because next week we'll be talking to another incredible lady who launched or if me you're a watcher follow us on youtube and don't forget to like and subscribe