Ep 15: How is Michelle Kennedy changing the narrative around motherhood with one platform?

0:12My guest today is someone who has redefined what it means to connect women in a digital world. After a successful career in law and later at Badoo and Bumble, she noticed a gap, a space where women could connect authentically, not just around parenting, but across all stages of life. She truly reflects what it means to build business with heart, which is why she had to be my guest today. Please welcome to the podcast, Michelle Kennedy. I'm so happy you're here. I am so excited. we actually met in the most typical way that two girls could meet in the bathroom I was about to say do you remember this of course we were having dinner for our friend Vanessa yeah that's a king ory and I just remember being like I don't really know you know when you get invited to a dinner sometimes you don't actually know anybody I knew Vanessa yeah I actually actually knew anybody else I think I knew like two people yeah and all of a sudden we had that was the door was really heavy and I was like I think I'm gonna get locked in the toilet do you mind holding the door for me and then that's it love here we are today that's it there we go I like it ladies who launch typical we meet in the bathroom I it's so funny because I know you but there's also so much I don't know about you because we didn't get to discuss it in the toilet that day um talk to me about lawyer Michelle I'm so intrigued that your life has sort of gone in so many different directions and which is why we're going to have so much to talk about but talk to me about lawyer Michelle was growing up was that always the goal was that always the route that you thought you'd take yeah always the goal I I've got an Irish mum and she's really really just so strict and pushy so I grew up with like you have to get a profession and that was it like I didn't know any better so it was like be a doctor be a teacher be a lawyer but be a professional and I that that was it that was the only thing that was really presented to me and so I just went for it I also you know it was a different era and I don't think I come from a creative family particularly no one in my family had been to uni actually so there were so many things that it was just like okay just I'm gonna work and do that um and yeah it was always the plan it's it actually makes me feel like quite suffocated to even say it because if my kids said to me this is the one thing I'm gonna do I'm gonna go for it I think I would be at least saying oh you know maybe this or maybe this or don't be like don't be so because if you don't get it or you do get it and it's not what you think it's going to be you know where to next so I think it was such a strange thing probably for like a little 11 year old to be like I'm going to be a lawyer I mean what a weird thing to say but yeah that was it actually and do you think your outlook on that has changed probably because like you say you know your mom as much as you love her she's a pushy lady and that's what she wanted for you so has that sort of changed the way I suppose that you parent um no I think I am probably still really harsh.

3:23I can't lie about that. But I think maybe I just, I see a bigger world. Yes. And I see more opportunity and I see more variety in things than perhaps mum even knew about. I think mum did the most amazing thing, which was work and do it all for yourself. Don't rely on anyone. Just make sure that you make your money and you have a profession and you can do anything like it was very much that and also she has always told me that I can do anything I've always believed I can do anything because she's always told me yeah and I also think like you say the landscape has changed so much like who if you look at your career you wouldn't think 80 % of your career would even be an option right but now we know there is so much opportunity and so many different avenues you can take a hundred percent like if you think about how small the world is now really like think about how you can meet people or how you can build something that will impact people the other side of the world that is so exciting and that is not even something that was in my contemplation as Michelle Little Lawyer albeit Michelle Little Lawyer definitely wanted to be wearing you know the little Prada heels and walking into the high court and you know that in my head is what it was going to be blonde chihuahua 100 % my this is going to age me but mine was Ali Macbill if anyone's ever I was obsessed with Ali Macbill and I really believed that I was going to be Ali Macbill and you know there was a bar in the you know underneath the office with a dancing baby or whatever like that was me I loved that show and I believed that that was going to be my life and I just went for it any work experience you know when you do things at school law firm I didn't care what I was doing paginating photocopying I didn't care that was it so where did you get your first break um well I don't you know what I'm tactical with nothing else and so I always could see I was at uni and um it's really competitive to get it's a training contract right so you have to go and do two years you need to dumb this down for me well I don't even know if it's the same anymore please please dumb it down for me because I have no experience all like the only experience I have when it comes to anything legal and lawyers is I have a panic when I see my lawyer calling me.

5:41I'm like, what's happened? What have I done? So dumb this down for me. This was, so you go to, I went to uni and I did a law degree and in your second year, they're like, you need to go and apply to a firm, law firm, and they're going to train you for two years. Right. But you have to go to law school and if you get the right kind of firm, they'll pay for you to go to law school. Okay. And law school is like 10 grand. Well, that's out of the question. So I have to get a firm to pay for the law school. It's almost like a scholarship. Exactly. And you have to, I have to get that. I know I have to get that.

6:13It's not even in question. So then everyone was applying to London and I was like, yeah, I mean, I could go to London, but everyone seems to be going there. What if I go north? So I went to Newcastle. So this is where the tactical... Yeah, found this amazing firm. It was amazing. And I was like, this is cool because I'll be like a big fish mall pond. there were like rather than 50 of us or 100 of us there were 15 of us i loved that firm they paid for law school they trained me and then at the end of that i moved to london so you know i've always got like a plan to yes you know yes and all these other people they're like we've got to get to the big five and we've got to go to this one or this one and i was like that's cool but i'm just going to do it in a slightly different plan here i like that and then you moved to london and then what happens the big lights um and then guess what kids being a lawyer is not like alimut beale who knew i was like oh i just you know look my husband's a lawyer so you know mad respect for lawyers but i was not leaving the office ever and um i loved like the the deal energy like you get this like mad energy when you're like we're doing the deal we're closing the deal I loved it it was addictive so addictive the buzz so you're like we're gonna close and you don't mind doing all of the all-nighters and then the deal's over and you're like okay that on to the next one okay and you've learned all about this business and you're really into it and it's like and next and that was getting a bit frustrating also I was always the friend who wasn't at dinner or yeah the impact on your social life you just you stop getting invited because they're like well Shell will never be there so just don't worry about it and you because that I've been in that place and you had and it's almost like I'm not gonna come but can you still invite me yeah just just remember that I'm still here but you do you do get to a point where you have to sort of self-reflect and think what is life okay this is all great and I'm doing well here and I'm closing the deals and this is a good buzz but outside of this office and the deals we're clothes in my life's a little non-existent yeah I mean there was this point I'd been I think I'd done like four weekends in a row and um my my housemate my friend put me in her car and drove me home to her parents in Kent and um I slept I think for like 48 hours um and her dad that is I mean that is a friend it was real love and her dad came in I remember him leaving me a cup of tea and he was like it's all right you've had the big 24 that was like the first 24 hours you've had the big 24 keep going and that was it and I went back to sleep I mean I love them I know it was amazing it was amazing and probably at that point I was like don't know if this is really what I'm gonna do forever I'm not frightened frightened of hard work like I'll work my socks off that's not the issue it's like but for what end and then what was the reason what was the reason that you thought I don't know if this is me forever because because that's quite a it's quite something to stumble on and to realize when the 11 year old you's like I want to be a lawyer yeah what was it about that that industry that actually you thought this isn't this isn't me I don't even think I knew it wasn't law actually okay I just thought it wasn't maybe in that setting right so there is a big um model acting like talent agency before you know there were lots of talent agencies there was a really big one and they were looking for a lawyer and i got the job and i was like this will be cool oh yeah and i remember going to hand in my notice and say look i'm gonna go and work for these guys and my head of department looked at me and went a contract is still a contract just so you know whether it's like models or actors or or a company or whatever it is it's still a contract and I was like oh oh gosh made me feel a bit hot it's like oh god he's right I'm just gonna go from one thing to the other thing that's one way of looking at it but then on the flip side that's like saying a job's still a job yeah and if I've not got the fire to be in this job yeah I gotta find where my fire well that's it so but it was it was good enough for me to think okay so maybe it's not that one I'm being a bit hasty and did you have that when someone it's quite a powerful statement isn't it a contract still a contract did you have that how am i making the right decision yeah no i felt sick i felt sick because i was like oh god because i was really really so arrogant when i walked in i was like i'm gonna be leaving gonna be going to said agency and he was like weird choice that i could see the face of like anyway that was a that was difficult one I stayed I didn't leave spoiler I stayed okay and then was it that conversation yes absolutely 100 % 100 % I was like oh haven't thought haven't given it enough thought okay then a client who I was doing lots of deals for was like do you want to come and work for us and I was like okay that's cool um totally different it was biotech so really really weird totally different but I love I love the team and we were doing loads of M &A so that was really cool you had that rapport I knew them and and that was great did you get the same judgment when you handed in your notice no very different I was going to a client that was very very important I was I was all of a sudden very important person uh and the not still a contract that's right and the offices of Mayfair it was very swish it's very nice um so that was like a totally different world and then I got the call that really changed everything which was from one of the lawyers I worked for and he was like I am doing a lot of work for a young guy who runs a dating website and he needs a lawyer and I was like no dating websites no way also my mum will absolutely kill me this is no way Trish was not happy about that um and um I met him and I met the team and I was like this is amazing and that changed my life that was the moment that is so interesting so and this is Badoo yeah so huge but when you think about what what year are we talking when was it 2010 when you think of dating websites in 2010 yeah I mean for want of a better phrase they weren't as sexy I mean I'm sure they were behind the scenes but you know they weren't they weren't that kind of now it's like I'm working for you know I'm heading up Bumble Tinder it's kind of like oh okay it's got that kind of creative spin on it now absolutely back then that wasn't quite the case was it it was a website firstly there were no apps imagine a world where we had no apps like it's so weird to think about now and everyone talks about apps as if it's like oh yeah we've always had apps we did not have any apps this was a dating website and actually what's really weird to think about is it really wasn't dating at all actually it was way more casual it was way more social discovery it was actually really really innovative and very cool for the time that it was in and yeah it was I was awkward about it tech also wasn't really a big thing in London and I felt embarrassed like I truly I was like oh I don't know how to explain what I do and that is that like in like a social setting so you're out for dinner and your girlfriend's so what's going with you you've left your that that situation where you're uncomfortable yeah or my friends would be we'd be down the pub on a friday night my friends would be like so dating you know because at the time it was people met online and you were like oh you know it almost felt a little bit seedy like it's a bit of a taboo conversation like it was weird i'm telling you it was not the same i tell you what community aspect it was it is now it wasn't think about how many of your friends met each other on a dating product right there are bumble babies there are like there are so many things that have been to so many tinder weddings so many many of my best friends who've met on dating products and at that time i i actually remember meeting someone who met their other half on a dating website and i remember thinking wow that is that's really unusual it's so crazy and it changed so much so i think that job changed my entire life meeting andre who's the founder of Badoo changed my entire life, in every possible way.

14:50He made me feel like I could do anything, I could build anything. You shut out the noise. You don't listen to what other people are saying about, okay, that's not cool, or people will never do that. Because actually people, you don't know. All you can do is observe what people are doing in real life and see if you can mimic it in a digital product. Having someone like Andre around you quite early on, that is so important isn't it and I suppose you're so lucky to have someone that kind of really instills that in you so soon I was terrified of him like it's such a strange like it's really funny thing because it wasn't always like um it it is now or it it was when we were working together at the end it was I was really he was my boss and I was a lawyer and I was there to tell him all the things he couldn't do right that was really so I was there like actually I don't I don't think we can do it like that and he'd look at me why

15:47um well and then and it just pushed you to find the answer right so you can't do it like this but we could do this and he's like okay fine do it like that so it you would be my dream lawyer because when I feel like I have an idea or something's going wrong they're like you know that's not we're going to leave that we're not that isn't how we should do this and I'm like guys we're this it's not that deep we're thinking about this way too much but to have somebody that understands it and it's a little more creative do you know what I mean and he's like well why don't you it's that it's that and it's that feeling of it's not that deep he would look at me like it's not that deep like just I also don't bring don't bring the problem to me just bring me the solution so I'd be like okay so let me go away and think about it and that was the start of it and then I am really nosy so I just would talk all the time like why are you doing that what does that mean what made you make that decision you know but do you had 52 million users gosh when i joined no way in 2010 never heard of it when i joined like he he didn't do that by accident so then you're like okay so you're obviously there's something there and i need to learn more and i need to understand more um and then eventually we started working next to each other but it it was a relationship that developed and partly because i am nosy and partly because i kept thinking never thought I'd be doing this this is fun so when you're working there now talk to me a little bit about the office and the setup how obviously you're there to do your legal role but was there a part of you that was just so interested and curious about the way the whole company run yeah always so I'm very nosy and also it was it's really um it was a difficult working environment it wasn't easy in what way standards were exacting we were pushing for excellence we were pushing for results and not everyone survived that right um and listen if there's if you've got a mum like my mum you can survive anything really there's just you know Andre Trish same so I was like honestly I was like this is this is no bother so he'd be pushing and I was like okay so we push harder and and so I think probably a bit of that resilience made it so that I wasn't going to go anywhere and so there were other things so then I started to acquire other functions it was beyond legal then I could have okay finance and then I could have HR then I could have but I could start acquiring these other BI and then I could start to build um and from there it was really like talking and spending time with him and it was it was an amazing experience you know one minute you're trying to sort out some personnel issue and the next minute he's like come on we're going to number 10 and it's like okay awesome what do i wear let's literally come on you know and and it's it's like it was the most amazing the variety of it when you started to sort of acquire other roles and take on other departments what was outside of legal what was the thing that you loved the most being creative like I'd never really been able to be creative before do you think that's because you were sort of pigeonholed and maybe you pigeonholed yourself a little bit it's not for me I would tell anyone I'm not really a creative person you know I'm just here to make everything work you know whatever but actually the times when we were having product conversations and it was like okay so how do we get users to do this oh my god amazing that's like psychology all of a sudden I'm like can we try this or can we do it that way or what were the results of that experiment there's so much in product that people don't necessarily think about every single thing that you see on your phone is so intentional every icon that you see every screen iteration that you see the fact that you'll see an offer cycle for a subscription in a certain pattern all of that is tested it's all based on a hypothesis of people like me sitting in an office saying okay let's try it this way testing it against control doing it again like it's it's not an accident it's no accident see this is where I need just to have you on speed dial because if I put something in my basket and I've left it there and I'm like no no no I'm not going to get that thing I don't need it and then it comes up again following you yeah and I'm like I go it's a sign it's 11 11 I need the jacket it's kismet supposed to be so someone like using an office making sure it's a sign for me that's it and we're thinking about things in a way of like okay what impact does that push notification have on that user at that moment in time when should we send it like how often should we be doing it you know all of these things and that for me became everything I just love doing it and I love doing it now it's the best when I think of you and we see here so many people talk about now like we want to build a community and community is so important when I think of like the OG community builder I think of you like honestly anytime I see anything anywhere I'm like yeah there's people been doing this for a long time and I think now people make a conscious effort because they know having seen platforms like peanuts yeah um they now know how important that is to continue to sell a product or make your voice heard but when I think of like you say Bidoo 52 million users before you even knew the name of it the community side of that I know that obviously you went on to bumble we talk about that afterwards but the community side of what you do has always been so important to you isn't it it's so I'm so obsessed with seeing how people make relationships how people make friendships how people connect what people are doing on their commute I am that weird creep who's watching you on your phone not because I'm reading what you're doing I'm just watching your interactions like what are you doing what you go from that app to that app and then back to the other what why did you do that you know I just want to know what you're doing and why you're doing it and community really I think is at the heart of every part of life right my community the my friends from home are we were laughing about it this morning they are my best friends in the whole world and that's my community and our kids they have a community together and that is something that if you're not lucky enough to have that if you don't if you've moved somewhere new if you're someone who's an introvert and it's not easy for you to get out and make those relationships how do we make it so that things that people are doing in everyday life they can do in an easier way on a thing that they're using every day yeah I do love it and I am obsessed with it and it is really hard and I think you're right people throw around community it's a buzzword oh we've got a community and I'm like so what's your community you know what you have are followers that's that's also cool and but that's different that's audience and audience and community is not the same thing because community is where people are talking and supporting each other yes and they're engaged with one another that's community um and I think we're a little bit blurry between what is audience what's broadcast and all of these things have become a bit more blurred but when we think about um community at peanut and when i think about community i'm thinking about connections how do i get you to connect to that person how do we build those networks also because men have been making networks since the beginning of time since the masons since all of these and we haven't really been a part of that story i actually touched on this with emma and we spoke about the fact that she'll be she'll hear her husband on the phone and i'm the same with my husband right and he'll be like oh don't make you who you need to meet you need to talk to this person and then and it's not necessarily even a friend it could even be a non friend but men are so good at networking and connecting but then you think about the kind of the purity of it and the simpleness of connecting we connected in a bathroom yeah so we know how good we are at it I've never sort of been on a night out and had a few too many and there's a girl crying in the bathroom and then she's my friend and I've lent her my hairbrush that's it we are good at that we are but it almost there feels I don't know why it doesn't feel like we're tapped in enough yeah I think you're right I think we are really good at it like I always say that mums were like the original influencers right before we had a term influencers it was mum who would tell you who the best builder is right where to get the best deal on the shoes is like what the butcher is doing like for a discount or whatever matchmaking mum was saying oh you know who's single you would like yes right and that was the the role of mum but mum was also trying to build a community which was easier because your auntie lived around the corner and we lived in a different way to raise kids and we don't live like that now right so if it takes a village and I don't live where my village was how do I recreate it um but to go back to your point about are men better at it they just know from a very young age that there is a social capital that comes from an introduction and we perhaps aren't educated um in the same way because we're dissuaded from doing things we're sometimes i think social capital is held against us as women if you do something for someone else because you want to see them succeed there is a well what does she want right and what she wants is you to win yeah but and i don't but why but what what that yeah i don't think ulterior motive and that is just something that is holding us back instead of pushing us forward and if you can shut all of that out and say because men don't care when have you ever said oh what does he want because he's making that introduction true we've never questioned it we've never questioned it so connecting people building networks thinking about mum and the role of mum and just thinking that we can all be mum whether you're an actual mum or not but we can all be the person who says you know what let me introduce you let me connect you let me build your network um I didn't know how important that was until much later in my career yeah and it's so important it's so so important so Badoo you are shining you're sort of coming into your own you're acquiring other roles and you know expanding your department how how does it go from Badoo to bumble um well this thing called tinder came out and a lot of my friends in the states were talking about this app tinder and i was like what is it and at the time when we got it it was a great gray screen there were no people on it in london so we couldn't really see it i could only see what my friends were telling me about it but because it was only work it was only there were no users yeah there were no users here so it's like a permanent gray screen and i was like but then it started to really become a thing and Andre and I were very aware of the fact that this thing called Tinder was doing what we were doing Slicker in a native app and it was cool no one was saying oh like oh date it everyone was like oh my friend's on there and it became like a why do you think that kind of dialogue changes between it being a website oh not so cool and And then do you think it's because apps were so new?

27:11No, well, I think they did loads of things really, really well. Like whatever you think of dating apps, at that moment in time, when that product came out, it looked stunning. I'd never seen a product that looks so clean. The interaction was so clever. Say yes, say no. People will only know you've said yes if they say yes. Double opt-in. So smart. Right? No rejection. Oh, okay. Swiping through a pack of cards. The same interaction, by the way, we were using to swipe through our camera roll. Right? Yeah. So now it doesn't, like, now it's just the given, isn't it? But at the time, that was like, it was amazing.

27:51And on Badoo, it was yes or no, it was tick or cross. And it was an active click. But this kind of swiping, wow. And so that was cool. And the positioning was cool. It was with young college kids. They had all the right people talking about it. And it was amazing. Honestly, it was amazing. And we were all like, oh. And we knew we had to do something about it. And we built something else. And I got pregnant. So I went and had Finn. And I remember Andre calling me. He was like, you have to come back. we have a problem. Finn's got to wait. And we went back and that product hadn't worked for a variety of reasons.

28:40So you went back whilst you're pregnant? No I went back when Finn was like four months old. So I went back pretty quick and he was like we need to work something out and that didn't work but we got back to work on Badoo actually and we made it into a really clean beautiful native product. It looked great. We were up and running again and then Whitney Wolfe was suing Tinder big lawsuit and we were like that was huge it was huge and and it was so brave it was at a time when you know this is before me too this was a really really um different moment in time and she was calling out behavior and I was like you know what we do need is her actually and so we basically started trying to message her to get her to come and meet us and she did and we spoke about what we could do and what we could build and we went on holiday together that was I mean that's weird to think about off to Mykonos with my like tiny baby and my husband in tow to talk dating apps yeah and Andre and we're all there in this like beautiful villa in Mykonos like so what could we do I mean it's really surreal now um but and the rest is history and we started building and the idea was we'd have a standalone product and it would be we'd leverage all of the back end and the infrastructure of Badoo but we'd have this new product and it was very important that it's so genius yeah but it had a a woman's view and and Whitney is one of the best marketing minds I think I've ever met and um we built what became Bumble and then and then the rest really is history because then everything like completely changed and it became just so monumental yeah it was such it was such a movement um and it was so exciting and I was a mummy so I'm doing all of this stuff in this really like great I'm running Badoo with Andre Bumble's like flying and every night I'm going home and I'm reading like weird online forums.

30:46It's so crazy. Like it's such an exciting moment, but the time in your personal life. It was so weird. It's so far away. I'm Googling like how to dry your milk up because my boobs were like leaking. I'm at work and there's no way that I can feed at work or why my baby won't sleep or is it normal. Also, don't forget, none of my friends have babies. So I was first out of my group of friends. That is scary. It's so isolating, isn't it? You're like, I don't know whether it's normal. I don't really know what's going on. And everyone's like around, first of all, they all come to the hospital, then they pop over, they get you a lovely gift.

31:19And then it's like, oh, we're actually all going to Ibiza. I'm like, it's terrible. I used to be feeding him at night. Also, it's that weird thing where you're like, usually at 2am, I'd be getting in. Yes. And now at 2am. At best. I've got the bottle propped and I'm on my phone. and like my girlfriends are like on instagram like yeah the club and i was like whoa there's nothing as lonely as that and like and that goes back to the time that you spoke about before when your life is your job and then people slowly stop inviting you to stuff because they rightly so i assume she's gonna be there's no way she's gonna want to come out tonight because there's probably isn't because i'm too tired but i also feel that my life has just completely changed yeah i remember But even Andre and Whitney and two other people from the Bumble team and a couple of Bidoofo, they were going out and they didn't invite me that night.

32:11And they were like, but you left. And I said the next day, I was like, why didn't I get the call out? And they were like, but you left the office. And I was like, you had to do bedtime. But I would have come. And I mean, that hurt. I was like, you know, there were moments like that where it was really hard. It's really isolating. Yeah. So at that point, you kind of must have a little mind shift where you're like, I love my job. This is so exciting. But it's not best place for my life right now. Yeah. And is that where peanuts born? Yeah. Do you know what? It's a combination of two things, I think.

32:50It's one, surround yourself with the energy that you hope to emulate and emit. I really believe that. I agree. so I'm around people who are building and they're creating and it's so exciting and all of a sudden I'm a creator I'm not just someone who is like making sure everyone does everything legally I'm part of this creative energy and I did not want to lose that or let that go and I didn't want to I didn't know how to go back to the day job really how do you go back into the day job when that's been what you've been working on and it's your obsession and I kept having all of these ideas and I always had ideas by the way I'd always had them during the life of Badoo I'd had fashion ones I mean you name it there would have been something a deck somewhere on my very old Mac if we could go into the old Macs and look at all the decks it's very embarrassing sometimes I look at them I'm like oh never let that good for the memories ever see the light of day so I was always had ideas on something um but I could I kept coming back to motherhood and I was like there's just nothing there we need something and I have to I have to be the one to do it has to be me and um Finn was now two and a half so he was about to go to nursery uh and I was like if I don't do it now I don't know if I'm gonna do it right there's never the right time to start right you just have to start and you feel it don't you're like I don't really know what's happening but this is I don't know what's gonna be but I'm gonna start now I'm going to start now weirdly I had a coach I've never had a coach before and I had this woman called Teresa for a short period of time um in my kind of last year at Badoo because I was on a very long notice period I had 12 months right okay it's very long and uh it's so long and I knew I was going but I didn't know necessarily that that was going to be the thing yeah it's a huge amount of time and I was really like you know edging thinking you know um and she basically had given me this concept of you've got to just do it because it's not going anywhere the life you built it will come back in a different form if that's what you want but if what you really want is to do this something else don't you owe it to yourself to do it and I was like yeah that's what I needed to hear yeah but you know I had a mortgage and you know other real real grown-up stuff and I was like right and it was a decision I had to go home say to Rich I'm gonna do this and I've got like this little pot of savings and I'm gonna use it to build and he was great and was like cool let's do it that's it so what you just to go back a little bit you said that there was there was nothing there so there was nothing doing it that you needed to do so what was the problem that you were trying to fix so two two key things one girlfriends weren't moms so couldn't get that it takes a village couldn't get the village to share any intel there was zero intel because the people that you trust aren't there yet they they don't know in fact I very very clearly remember a conversation with my friend Tasha when I was talking about um uh Finn not sleeping and saying you know I read on this website or this forum forum I read on this forum that actually if you just let them cry and they eventually self-soothe and she looked at me and she was like just so you're clear you wouldn't do anything that a forum told you to do about your hair let alone your kid and I was so like actually maybe a good point and then I started to think about all the things that were wrong with what existed because I needed friends who were in the same situation as me problem one problem two I needed to know that the information was legit yes how do I know that that's actually from a mom or and it's not from some you know random guy living in Alabama I don't know yes so how do I solve for legitimate quality content and finding friends and I think this was idea number three that I was like okay this is what I'm gonna do Finn had been called peanuts since I was pregnant and I was like I remember messaging another person that used to work with me called Hannah she'd left the business and I was like I've got a good one this time she must have worked on that many decks with me I think every time she got one she's like she goes it's another good one yeah and I was like this is the one I've got it this time and she was like I love it and she quit her job I was like oh my now I have to go and that was that is incredible yes Hannah yeah I love that yeah that's what she did so slightly pressured but also great because obviously this is a big okay we're talking risk you go home to rich and you say I know we've got a mortgage but I'm doing this and Hannah's now left her job yeah we're in was there ever a plan b well this is yes so i know another like very well-known respected founder who i hugely respect and she did something amazing and i remember reading an interview where she said you cannot have a plan b as a founder it's plan a or nothing yeah and i was like oh and it was making me feel really which is so powerful amazing but also what about all the other stuff i've got i've got a kid now right let's go to nursery i've got a mortgage I've got yeah ask me in my like when I was 21 do I need a plan b probably not ask me when I've got a mortgage and a kid and I have responsibilities that are bigger than just me I have to have a plan b and I'm also in a position that's currently quite good to risk it all and leave that comfortable environment how could I not what was I'm so curious what was plan b stay on the board of the company so I stayed on the board of Badoo and I stayed on the board of Bumble and I did a bit of consulting for um andre and that and and for another company and that just kept some income whilst i was like busy doing other stuff in the background but you know that was sweet i love doing it because it's it's easy i can do that with my eyes closed i loved it i knew everything about it and i could carry on building um but that was that had to come to an end right there was a point in time when he was like look either you work for me or you're doing your own thing and it's like only lasts for so right and then I was in then I was like right now the plan a I have to make it work so I like I said it keeps coming back to community what you've done at peanut is just you know it really is it's something else and I think it's a problem that you had yourself that you wanted solved but actually like it's the best things start self-indulgently right because you're like there's this is a real problem for me there must be somebody else that feels like this and then that's where the journey continues and what what I find that you do so well you know I have a family brand and I think what the struggle that I think that I find that the hardest is that I know that every mum looks different and that tone of voice and always getting it right at the start can be quite a challenge and making sure that everybody feels seen and everybody feels like they've got what they need out of that product or out of that brand is quite the challenge how how has that been for you well you know when you're starting something and even if it's just a handful of people that believe that it's a need you're like well then it's a need right 100 % that's all you need you just need that tiny first cohort to say yeah we need it and you're like okay I'm and being all things to all people is really really hard right and so I always tactic had a tactic with peanut which is I had to make it in a in the US first right that's so interesting why why was that Badoo had historically not done well in the US and obviously Bumble with wit had flown and I was like I need to have a bit of that okay um and at the time I think it's easier now but at the time there were very few uk brands succeeding in the us um so now obviously you've got spotify and you've got all these but it was really hard at the time so i had to make it feel like it was a us brand so um and we we really basically invested all of our time and energy on making it feel quite us centric to the point as in for the user for the user it was localized the brand felt us the the way in which we did things we focused on working with tastemakers and like we call them party starters but like women of women of influence in the us and we focused on the us um and that was very intentional and that was to the exclusion perhaps of women in the uk and that was hard because this is my home and i i love i'm so proud of it did you want that same feeling that you felt when you opened tinder for the first time a hundred percent it had to feel like oh yes what's this and then as soon as you start getting traction well then we could do the uk but that was quite a conscious decision it was quite hard um and that's not to say we weren't doing anything here but really effort wise seeding wise getting to understand the nuance between what it means if you live in brooklyn and what it means if you live in connecticut which is hard from really hard girl from the uk yeah a girl from peterborough and the sort of the scope of it it's it's huge yeah yeah in comparison to the uk 100 and every state is like another little country yes right every state has its own personality every you know and then within that state you've got to know the cities and within those cities the neighborhoods so you really i spent a lot of time in the u.s yeah i was in the states for one week a month um every month for in different parts before covid wow yeah gosh and how did that look because i know that you could talk about this for until the cows come home but women and funding yeah how long we got um we know the huge disparity when it comes to venture capital and female um how did it look to you starting out did you did you raise yourself how how was that for you so I think that um I was so naive with fundraising I had no clue I just didn't know what I was walking into Badoo was a profitable company right unheard of in tech actually even now when you think about it but this we we were doing so well we were I mean we were paying out dividends to shareholders it really was such a successful business that fundraising to me was like oh yeah I'm gonna have to do something as a and I'd never worked with venture capital before we had one private equity investor in Bidou and so I kind of very naively and very ignorantly went out to speak to people in bc and that probably was a good thing because it just meant that i didn't know whether i was doing it right yeah yeah yeah yeah like kind of this is what i'm doing i've got nothing to go on here right i'm gonna go for it yeah what's the worst so for my first um race so i'd bootstrapped i'd had enough to pay hannah um and a couple of others you kind of got her now I had I had just enough to do to do the start um and I had um told Whitney what I was doing and she introduced me to a fund um that she knew and they wrote me a term sheet on the back of nothing me and a really poor deck and I thought that that was fundraising I was like god amazing yeah great and then the reality hit off that was one very specific example of one very specific fund in the u.s and then i came home and everyone was like why are you taking money from the u.s very different market there wasn't a lot of love for building something for mothers at all um which is just so bonkers it makes no sense it makes we are the biggest the single biggest um group who make decisions on household spend of course 85 percent of decisions on household spend mom right so the fact that there wasn't any interest was like um but there really wasn't and the fact that you would have to knock up doors to be like hi guys look what you're missing and and the the feedback constantly was don't you want to do another dating product we've got loads of experience there that's great prove a model and it's like yeah but what about when those people date successfully guess what they're doing guess what comes next the next stage yeah I don't know if like mums are really ready for this and I was like but no one thought that people were ready to meet via an app and they did so and also hi hello I'm telling you right so there was a lot of that um and there was a so we weren't talking about the things that we talk about now we talk about motherhood very openly now we talk about trying to conceive we talk about menopause we talk about all of these issues none of that was being spoken about in 2016 in fact if you think about a baby company think about the products they were smiling beautiful blonde mom with perfect baby that was that was the campaign well mom perfect bump that looking the glowing glowing and i remember feeling like damn i was i didn't get this dream that they put on the front of the baby max didn't look like that wasn't my experience don't can't see myself represented my nose was pregnant i didn't see anyone with a pregnant nose on the front of the magazine honestly i was just currently expecting triplets no honestly it was the whole thing the ankles the feet but the whole thing but i remember very clearly being in like victoria station and seeing a big well-known baby brand with um this like image of the the woman and the and i was and it looks so kind of harmonious serene i'm like why doesn't she not look like she's got a piranha why isn't she sweating remember those awful sweats night sweats nobody tells you about them too and that's the point no one told you about anything so the image that we were being shown versus the reality were two completely different things yeah um and the final part of that was us uk fundraising landscape totally different we didn't really have any early stage funds here people weren't really investing at an early stage pre-seed seed didn't really exist we had growth funds much later down it was much more conservative and consumer social forget it right there's a reason why the social products were facebook snapchat those were the ones that were big at the time they were being built out of the bay nothing was being built here like that yes so um there was a lot of things stacked against me it took i don't know and now in hindsight took no time at all it took maybe two and a half months three months to do that but when you're pouring every kind of bit of yourself into it and you're not knowing like you say the odds are stacked against you I had no clue and I would talk to anyone about it and the only thing that I learned was how to get better you have one call you're like okay that bit wasn't good tweak that do it again do it again do it again um and and that was it and there were loads of other things that no one told me like if someone passes on you but they say keep in touch and then they send you a message saying hey how's it going don't ignore them which is what i did i'd be like you said no first time don't cut your nose off to spite you right and it's like michelle it's called building relationships it's called building a network whereas all the smart boys who are building out of their dorm room in stanford are like you know right yeah so i didn't know any of this stuff it's almost like the etiquette of it all and the kind of absolutely yeah unspoken rules that no one like shares so at what point so you're spending a lot of time stateside you're doing a week a month it's kind of the odds are stacked against you you're nailing it there here you're like i'm not sure if i've raised it in the right way yeah at what point do you go okay this is landed like was as soon as say as soon as the apps launched yeah how quick into that did you go okay we're on to something here because you've got the experience you've seen bumble happen yeah budu's been online at what point did you go okay we're we're gaining that traction i think i mean there were there were so many things that happened that were amazing but we got a call from um apple and apple were amazing partner for us in terms of um when a lot of other people were like mums apple were like oh interesting demo tell us more and were really like willing to learn from us and like share like best practice and that was really like I I really appreciate that so much but we got this call well there's a reason they are apple right a hundred percent they and if and it actually it gave me huge confidence because if they were there with me like smelling it too I was like we have we have something and uh they called it was really weird I was in the car and they were like are you alone yes am I in trouble I am do I need to sit down obviously it was really really unbelievable and basically they have a huge conference every year for any like geeks like me it's called WWD it's the worldwide developer conference and it's like the dream to get a ticket for WWDC right let alone anything else and they were like we're launching a new app store new version of the app store and peanut is going to be our launch product on stage oh my gosh so So we're going to introduce like Peanut and it's going to be a series called Meet the Developer.

51:10And we're going to interview you. You cannot tell anyone in your team. What? And you can't talk about it. And I was like, not even Hannah? No. It was it was unbelievable. And they said, if you've got an iOS dev that you want to send out to the conference, we'll get you one ticket. And my iOS dev was a mummy of two. And she was like, I can't just go. um I would have gone as it goes but I wasn't invited um and and that was it so we all sat around in our like watching WWDC on our laptops and a little picture of peanut came on screen on like on this iPhone and Tim Cook was there and our little thing was floating around the screen and then the head of the app store this amazing guy called Smokey um came on stage and he was like and this is michelle kennedy and this is peanut um and it's this amazing new app and i was like oh my gosh and that was it and it was the coolest thing still the coolest thing that's ever happened to me that is i mean even here i'm getting shivery it was amazing it was amazing and what do your team do at that point they don't know they've got no idea no we were all like i mean it was it was amazing it was an amazing amazing moment it was you know and so i think there are things like that and we've had amazing things like that and by the way we've had terrible things happen to us as well like it's not just in case anyone's like oh god my business doesn't sound like that it's not linear it goes like this i think it's so important to flag that isn't it and i think on you know this is why moments like this is so important because we can talk about the highs and then you know the excitement but also the fear the worry the anxiety and big lows because when you're building something that you're so passionate about yeah the lows are big they are so what's what's hardest is the lows are very low and even the highs start to not feel like a high and when there's a low lingering you you start to not feel it at all and that's a really weird thing to experience where you know it's good objectively you know what you've done is good but you can't feel it because you've got this thing that's hanging behind you yeah and that's like we we got an amazing award and I was in New York for the award and it was incredible and in the back of my head I knew I had to go out fundraising next month and I couldn't I couldn't enjoy anything because all I could think about was okay have I booked enough meetings this trip what's my plan what's my timetable what are you know what's the narrative the pressure yeah horrible and that moment when you realize all of that pressure and everything in between is on one person it's just you it's just you you also have other people's mortgages on your head their bills their kids nursery fees their whatever it's you and and that's hard do you ever and it is and it's so exciting and you know someone like you and i feel it myself will always have that drive and will always be it's okay we're gonna we're gonna figure it out yeah but do you ever sort of or did you ever have that moment where you kind of think do you know what all of this i mean it's a lot like you say other people's mortgage the responsibility of knowing that oh my god these are my team i love them so much but actually god i'm if we have a bad year like how does that then look yeah i mean rosh every day like every day where you have that thing where you're like what am i doing or like my daughter said to me the other day you know we never get any time together she's very dramatic anyway i mean apart from like the whole three weeks but you know there are these moments where you're like what what actually am i doing or someone close to you gets sick and you're like i don't want to regret not spending my time in the right way um and something like that happen um or or the pressure just gets too much and truly i had a moment last year where i was like i don't know how much more of this i've got yeah um how healthy it is it because it is also quite an addiction right we are all addicted and obsessed with what we're building and in love with the eye like what's coming next and the vision i'm always about this big vision and how do i get there um and there was a moment last year where i was like maybe i just want to live quietly and not do this anymore yeah um but then that little that little person on your shoulder was like hey michelle it's me again yeah and it's fun for like two days to think that and then and then you're a bit like don't know and you get fidgety or you start thinking or you can't help it another idea comes in you're like oh that's good but not right now you know that it's something that lives within you I think we spoke a lot about the I suppose the idea of having it all but the idea of that you've become so obsessed with something that you actually are always the girl in the office or you're always the girl that misses the birthday party and the one that didn't make the wedding and then you become a mum and then you have no other choice but to split yourself in half because those friends that might not invite you sometimes then do that's kind of when that's a little person that's your baby it changes your outlook on everything because you're like there's not about to be anything that I'm going to miss here because this is the love of my life totally how do you find and I'm not going to use the word balance because personally I don't believe it and I think you're always shifted one way or another but how do you find the juggle and how does that look to you because it is so hard making sure that everything is a priority and nobody is going to be a priority or nothing is going to be a priority like your child but the idea of making everything happen and it well it's never seamless but it go as easy as possible it's so it's a tough one it's so hard isn't it because I I think that there are so many different ways I could answer that particular conundrum of how do we how do we have what we want and live the life we want but make everyone else feel like they're getting what they want but also your time everybody needs your time everyone needs your time it's the most valuable thing you have right and and how do you solve for that and also um protect the things that are really important and work out what is important isn't important um and I think I'm still working it out me too it's the truth I'm still trying to get there I don't know um and I try really hard this is the first year at peanut where I closed the office between Christmas and New Year.

57:53I've never done it before. And honestly, the team felt tired and I was tired. And I needed to have permission to be like, do you know what? Obviously, you're never not working. You're always checking. But I need to not have calls. I need to not have any commitment to be delivering something in that time. We can all do our daily checks and then we can just leave it. And that will be okay. we've been at this for seven years now and we know the pattern and we know what will happen and that's okay and it's good it's better than okay we need it and it was a really really important thing that to do it and it was important I think for the team right I have people in my team they are devoted to what we do they work so hard they also needed that break they needed that permission and so um but I would never have done that and that's very not tech also right and I actually had one of my investors words in my ears of like what are you doing you you know you won't that's not the culture you want to build yeah and i had to be like it's what i'm building though and this is how we're doing it and so um that's that's taken me seven years to get to that confidence though so you know it didn't happen overnight so i'm still figuring it out so that was an important one um my son has got an exam at the moment he's got the 11 plus oh god that is like so so like the most stressful thing ever and my daughter's getting neglected and she's like but mommy but mommy but mommy and it's I feel like I'm with him or I'm working or you know and there's it's always constant things my mom was pulled right all the time my mom was really ill a couple years ago and that was my focus and so you do just get it's it's like we were saying we were saying the other day actually when we're this is the plan for this year and you know we plan pre christmas then we check back in in jan and we're like this is how this is going to look and this is where our focus is but and we always do that and we act accordingly but then things can happen and things can fall off and it's about kind of you know they say make a plan and god laughs right because something will be chucked in there and you're like okay i've now got to run this company but i've also got my mum sick or i've also got yeah and you just don't or now the market's fallen or now the market's changed and what we liked before which was growth growth growth now what we like is profitability and you're like okay fine go just right just when we're in the rhythm and and so things change so quickly and and unpredictably now um someone else wins the election and that affects the market negatively now someone else wins the election in another country and the market bounces back you don't know how that's going to go and it's exactly that you just have to be adaptable so I'm still learning don't anyone ever tell anyone or let anyone tell you that you can have it all you can do it's a lie you can't and the best you can do is make the decision that is right for you in the with the information you've got in that circumstance you're in that's the best you can do how do you take time for you because it's really that is another thing when this is all going on and your mom's ill and your company's there and you've got two children you've got a husband how do you find is there anything you do anything you come and do this yeah this is such a treat like i mean seeing you like that's a treat um going out for dinner with girlfriends mad treat like i i have a group of friends and we go out for dinner to moan about our businesses and that's like therapy it's amazing we're called fearless bc we go out and we just know yeah we just go out and moan about our business that's great that's like our therapy we try and do that like once a month um i see my friends from home a lot um i i those things are really important to me and do you switch off because that's because it's all well and good having those kind of opportunities to get together and i am with you i need like my friends i need a take away or I need whatever it might be but are you present can you do you find it easy to go okay phone down um I'm better I'm better I'm not good at it I'm not good but I'm improving I'm much better I'm much better when I think about the early days I was off I mean I really must have been an absolute nightmare not great company yeah constantly like this not there half laughing half checking your phone under the table right so definitely I'm better than that um also because I think kids don't allow that yeah you can't there's my daughter will have her head excuse me I am she does not care she will be there what are you doing why aren't you giving me attention and and you know you become they're like little mirrors right so you become horribly aware of what you're doing because she's like can I look at that then mommy and you're like no it's not for you yeah that's not important right exactly that so um I'm better I'm a work in progress rush I'm with you i'm with you we can't we just can't have it all sussed and that's why i say i hate the word balance i hate the kind of the pressure of the idea that we're supposed to have it all because you can have bits of all of it but something's always going to give isn't it it has to you can't it's not sustainable either we're not robots when we're not ready it'd be handy though if i could have a robot that would be ideal make everything easy right we're gonna do the rocket round now so we we like to waffle you and i but these have got to be i'll try quick fire girl i'll try okay so first one what are the non-negotiables for launching a business team plan for one quarter to a half year to year one nice gonna change but have something to work towards KPIs.

1:03:52What is the one thing you're going to set out to prove in that time? It doesn't matter. Could be I'm going to get X number of followers. It could be I'm going to spend, raise X. I'm going to create X in revenue, whatever it is, one KPI that you have to hit. Because otherwise, how do you know how to measure what you're doing? Yes. Yeah. Very good. Okay. When did you first realize you truly launched?

1:04:20when my mum sent me a picture of me in a magazine it's got to be that that's a really it's a really good marker this is so good if strict mama was trish was like this is good that's it if trish is happy i'm happy you've made it uh what do people usually seek your advice and help for strategy like being tactical as well um having a plan and i'm quite good at people okay I think I just have pretty good sense on people yeah I like that what brand do you wish that you had founded oh I see things all the time and I'm like oh it's good I've done that well I'm good it has to be a tech company obviously I have to give a tech answer um there is there are a couple in um the faith space so one is called hallow one is called glorify right um and they're about getting people um the ability to worship um on their phone and it's not that I am a particularly religious person but I think giving people the opportunity to do what they do in real life on their phone is something that I really love yeah and I think that they've done it pretty well yeah okay I love that so good um if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be ah i have one um she is a brilliant woman she's called henrietta and she was the founder of lily's kitchen which is the like organic dog food and she has just been the most incredible woman to me at various points when i really have thought that i am absolutely losing it um she's amazing and i hope for as much success as her oh that's lovely and if you could trade one of your current skills for a superpower that would help your business what would it be and why that would help my business time the power of time we just said it like whatever i can do i will trade all of this chat

1:06:30to get more time i'll do it your chat is so good and you've got it in abundance so you'll be okay you'll be okay it's the blarney stone I can't help it but get that and just give me more time amazing do you know what I'm with you on that one um now it's time to leave a tip so we get all of our guests to leave a tip something really tangible that I suppose someone that is listening could you know emulate your success or if they're looking to launch I suppose a tech product yeah a tech brand how that would look what would your tip be what is one bit of information you think someone starting out needs to know you can test what you're going to build without building anything by faking it in an environment okay so I spoke to a founder yesterday on a similar basis if you want to build an app don't build the app what is the core of the app that you're testing and go and create it in a different way if it's community see if you can get people to join a whatsapp group and get them chatting if it's events see if you can get people to go to those events and how many people repeatedly go whatever it is you can fake it in an environment that will give you enough data to inform you whether you're going to build the right thing don't spend money with an agency building an app please until you've tested whether it's the right thing to do that is that is brilliant advice um and lastly before you go this is our kind of sanctuary for everybody's lunch hour so you've inspired someone to stay in their lunch hour so we've spoke about ladies who launch i want to know about your lunch order how do you spend your lunch what do you eat where are you how does it look for michelle you already know it is that spicy tuna joe and the juice oh it's good why is it so addictive it is it shouldn't be allowed five five days a week five days a week i can do it so awful that and the green mild juice because it makes me feel like i'm you know doing something good um and where am i i'm either in my office um at work or i'm in my home office um and i am a bad person because i eat whilst i'm working but i do that so that i can do the school run or yes do something else um but yeah that is it i i cannot stop with that thing i thought i'd be bored no it's so good never you know i've started asking for extra jalapeno now yeah i feel like i'm in i'm brave i'm like give me all the spice i'm gonna do extra jalapeno trust me you won't regret it and also when anyone says oh but you can make this at home it's never that is not and i've tried it i've tried to you know em the nutritionist i know i love her she's a great recipe and i'm like do you know what em it's just it's i want someone to do for me actually i can't explain why i don't know what magic is in there it's an obsession something let's hope it's good for us oh it's 100 good for you i i've already convinced myself um thank you so much i've loved today thank you guys

1:09:32loved that love her don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure you don't miss out because next week we're going to be talking to another that incredible lady who launched or if like me you're a watcher follow us on youtube and don't forget to like and subscribe