Ep 20: Creating with heart and purpose with Sally O’Connor, Founder of Hesellic Design

0:11This week we're bringing you something new that we're calling Lift off with now in honour of National Small Business Week and bringing you some of the best kept secrets who are perhaps earlier on in their journeys or really on their way to lift off. We're bringing you a new episode every single day to shine a spotlight on these incredible women that you might not have yet heard of. Right, so let's lift off with. Today we're joined by my gorgeous friend Sally, the most incredible interior designer but also the founder of Hazelic Design. Sally set out to create something so special and honestly it is so inspiring to witness through Hezotic Design.

0:47She is redefining what it means to own your story and your personal brand. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Right before we get into it if you like this episode which I know you get it please don't forget to like and subscribe and to share it to your group chat. I love that we're doing this because I we've known each other for a very long time and we've worked with each other a lot and we are friends but I feel like obviously I know so much about you Sally and I know so much about what you do but there'll be also so much that I don't know which is so interesting so I'm so pleased that you're here.

1:26Thank you for having me girl. Always. For those that don't know let's kind of set the scene tell us who Sally is and tell us about Hazelic Design? So I am Sal, the founder and creative director of Hazelic Design which is a multi-faceted interior design studio which comprises of interior designers, interior architects and architectural technicians providing what I like to think is really truly bespoke designs for people wishing to build or renovate family homes and it's what I what I just find I basically before you I didn't even know that you could have an interior designer like when you're from a working class background you don't even know something like that existed same yeah by the way I really yeah I grew up just thinking like my mum decided oh you know the hallway needs something so I'm going to go to home base and I'm going to do it and everyone was all hands on deck I didn't know that it was such an art form and it wasn't until I got a lot older and I suppose you know a bit more financial freedom that I was like well you can really make your home a beautiful place to be you know and even now I suppose we see like content creators if you've not got the finances to have someone advise you you can get you can just draw so much inspiration everywhere absolutely and that's what I love about our business and and what I love about social media so even though we work very very very closely with our clients um investor clients private clients we share our work online and it's so nice when people tap into us and say oh I got this idea from your Instagram what do you think and I get such a massive buzz off that because you know growing up I used my mum used to take me to the rag market on a Saturday afternoon we'd go pick the new fabric for the neck curtains or you know I was seven and I had swags and tails in my bedroom so it's like they were blue and yellow but and yeah so I didn't really understand what interior design was but I think it's already that creative spark was I guess part of me and my being from from kind of a really young age but not in the capacity as I know it you know what I know designed to be now when did you realize because like you said you've with these things there's always like a natural instinct isn't there natural eye or that natural flair that you're kind of you're either sort of blessed with or you're not it's kind of a hard thing to teach style isn't it It's so kind of subjective.

4:05When did you first realise that this was more than kind of a love for shopping and making your own fabulous? When did you realise that you wanted to have your own interior design studio? So I came to the industry, I guess, a little bit later than most. Or like a lot of my team came straight to the studio from university, having done an interior architectural degree. I actually started my career. So I always wanted to put pictures together. I actually wanted to work in television, either producing or art directing. And so that's where I actually started my career. But because of the kind of person I am, I like to see everyone OK, make sure everything's organised.

4:46You know, I love good feeling. I almost got moved into kind of, I guess, more of a managerial organisation role within TV. And whilst that was great, the money was great, I climbed the ladder quite quickly. there was just something about that creative spark in me that I like desperately missed and I remember calling my mum and dad I was like I think I'm going to move to London and I'm going to quit telly you know I'd sent 200 letters out as part of you know to try and get a job straight after uni and I'd got this great job I'd moved up quite quickly and then I was like yeah I'm quitting and I'm kind of starting my career again it wasn't like sort of setting you alight it just wasn't and And I was like, and then I really, so I was doing a little bit, I was doing some prop buying, a little bit of set design for some of the shows I was working on.

5:33And that's when, that was truly, I guess, when I realised, okay, this is my path. So I packed a bag, went to London and I started working with an incredible decorative finisher. She was working for some incredibly top end interior designers doing things like bronze leafing, gold leafing, French polishing. So, and I was just there with a backpack. My friend used to call me Dora the Explorer. And I was there like assisting her. I was getting down, hands and knees, you know, polishing floors. And really just when the lead designers would come to site and I was just listening and learning. And then we were working on a gallery in London and the opening date was looming.

6:15And the interior designer who was working on the project, I could see everything was very stressful, really panicking about certain things. So Teresa, the incredible lady that I was working with, kind of pushed me forward I was like oh Sal's an interior designer and I was like oh my gosh that moment and I kind of just went with it I was like okay so we're definitely faking it till we make it here then and um and she was kind of very much like oh I am the interior designer on the project don't need another one so I was just like no worries I'm here if you need anything gets the call a few days later Sally could you just pop to Chelsea Harbour for me pick me up are you free are you available I was like I'm making myself free and available so I was doing a job in the morning I was like I'll be there in the afternoon and she set me this task of you know finding three samples I came back with like 20 and she was like okay we smashed this by the way nothing else has changed now when I'll say Sally what do you think about fabrics for this she'll be like here are 55 to choose from and then she said well what about how do you fancy designing some leather doors it was for historic building and I said yeah we could really work with brass and because of the experience I'd had working with Teresa it really just set me in good stead to be able to say oh we could do this and I think the designer at the time just saw something in me and she was like how do you fancy taking this on as a bit of a contract so taking the entire stress away from me and actually running with it yourself so I called my dad and I was like dad um because my dad's had a small electrical firm for for as long as I can remember his entire life I was like um could I speak to your accountant and could I set up a business and because of the value of the order I need to be that registered within 24 hours oh my gosh this is so brilliant so he was like yes darling no problem we'll work it out let's sort it out so um literally registered overnight I was under a lot of pressure to choose a business name um set it up and then genuinely you know the rest history and I know that's like kind of a bit of a cliche no it's not but it just then snowballed from from there so tell me about the name because when um whenever I say but you need to have all you know me I'm always like you have to use Sally if you're going to do this you have to use Sally where did the name Hazelik where did that come from it's the phonetic pronunciation of a word that if you looked at it, it looks like G-E-Z-E-L-L-I-G.

8:46But it's a Dutch word, so you pronounce it, and I've actually got a little tattoo of it, it's pronounced Heselig. Right. So I almost did a play on that word. And the reason I love, and I still do love the word, is because it's virtually untranslatable in the Dutch culture. And it means something that's just so nice, a cosy atmosphere, a homely environment. and just to feel like really loved in a space. I mean, well, then it couldn't kind of like embody what you do better, right? Of course. And do you know what? The advice since, because our industry, you may or may not know this, but lots of design studios, particularly well-established design studios, they tend to be named after the principal designer.

9:30Yes. But in the early days, my name had no legitimacy whatsoever. Right. So I had to almost have a brand name. And, okay, the table's turned. What do you mean because at the time you wasn't known as a designer? I wasn't. No one knew me. I was this, like, gal from, you know, even though I was working in London, I was young. I was a Brummie. And I was a female. So you sort of get, so you sort of, you, I suppose you're giving yourself, like, an alias sort of thing. Absolutely. It was just that legitimacy that I think when you're starting, you know, because from day one, I mean, this was a gallery on Bond Street in London.

10:07you know I wasn't starting painting my grandma's flat you know it was almost like you've been given this opportunity and you kind of had to build a brand to reflect the kind of business that you were that you were doing from the jump absolutely and I mean I look at my branding back then and it is horrendous but I just had to get started yeah you know that idea like it was just like it's no or never it was an opportunity that I was just like this is it was almost like a pinch me thing where it's like like almost like why me type thing I had no formal training as such it was just almost like blood sweat and tears really and almost just making I mean and we see this a lot it's making the most of being in that right place at the right time had you not been pushed in front and you said oh she's an interior designer you said no no no no that's not for me because you might have felt that you weren't ready yet but whether you kind of felt it or not just making sure that you pushed yourself to take the opportunity with both hands absolutely and whilst like her select the name and like i say other interior design studios they're named after the principal and we've also toyed with the idea as a studio particularly as we move into new territories and when we move to more global projects but then the word more so than ever just means so much to me yeah it means so much to the team the brand it's it's just the very essence of who we are of what you do so i suppose that's that's what you do so well is create that cozy gorgeous environment I suppose that's what you want the team to always remember of course and Roshi it's not like it's difficult to say but it's also difficult to explain what it is because it's not tangible yeah it's a feeling and you and I often talk about magic and I think you know when you're a service-based business and I guess that's the difference we're we're service-based right yeah so it is it's about feeling and I think people know whether it's in your soul and whether it means more to you than anything.

12:04And as a studio, to us, it does. Our work is everything and the brand is everything. When we talk about you and the feeling and your brand, to me, you have such a distinctive brand. So I could see something on Pinterest, which I am often, you know, me. I love a little Pinterest board. And I see your projects come up. Of course you love Pinterest. We're like 3am sharing pictures. I know, it's really bad. I throw on like these joint boards and it's a whole thing, keeps us up all night. But your homes are so, I could spot one of your homes a mile off. And you have such a kind of distinctive style and taste, which is what you said.

12:45It's cosy. It's not like, it's not over fussy. It's just like complete, but pulled together. It's exactly what is on my mood board, as you know. Is it hard? I often wonder this when being an interior designer and you're helping somebody achieve their dream home, which is, I suppose, why they onboard you, because they love you. They love what you do, but they love that feeling. If they're sort of leaning towards an idea that you are like, this is absolutely horrendous, but they're a paying customer. This is what's going to make them happy. But how do I put my spin on this kind of respect what they want, but also not let it affect my style?

13:24I always wonder that, like if someone is like, I want this kind of ghastly bedroom and that's going to make them happy. How do you go about that? I mean, it's definitely a balancing act. I guess we're so lucky because we've been in business for such a long time now that our clients come to us for our signature style. Yes. And like I say, it's very difficult to actually describe what that is for some people. But it is. It's that layered, cosy environment that's very curated, but it's so livable. Yes. everything needs to be livable and I think because our brand and the essence of our brand is so strong within the team as well it's very easy to take an idea that a client has and bring them around to our way of thinking without changing their philosophy and what they believe they want their home to be and what that is is which I actually think is a skill and I always say to my team for my poor organization for my timekeeping for all of the stuff that I'm not great at I'm like please always trust me that I will always get into the client's mind and I'll always get on their wavelength of thinking yes and that's and I actually think that might that's made the studio what it is today I love it when a client says oh my god that's exactly what I was thinking or we're going to choose a marble slab with a client and I'm thinking something in my mind and the client says something I'm like yeah because it's so hard to articulate that feeling like being on the other end and being a client I'm like I've seen this I love this this is my vibe but you always find a way of like this studio for example we we design this together and then today you came and you sprinkled your magic touch everywhere because there was just a table and there wasn't anything here and I was on FaceTime to you going I think this is right but we're going to record a couple of episodes in it before you get here and instantly you came in today realigned everyone's shots the close-ups the wide shots everything's different now you've added some accessories but that's exactly this is exactly what I meant it to look like but it didn't you know 12 hours ago because you know what it is like it's difficult for a client sometimes exactly like you it's not your industry you're not expected to be able to articulate what you want yes it's our job and I always say this to my team we've got two ears and one mouth and we must use them in proportion.

15:41When we meet a client for the first time, all we need to do is listen, listen, listen, really try and understand. You know, I've had clients say to me, oh, I like shabby chic. And then you show them shabby chic images. Oh no, that's not what I like. And it's encouraging them to be really open. And I always say, no one sounds silly. No one's asking silly questions. There's no such thing as a stupid question. So if you're unsure about your style or what you like, let's just spend lots of time doing discovery and discovery has become a really important part of our brand because that's how we get to know the client and genuinely find out what you know what they genuinely like and love not just what they think they like yes and also I think what you as a client what you say with your mouth and then visually what I send you as a picture can actually be conflicting.

16:33Absolutely. And that's even a challenge for us in the studio, but we work really hard with that. And so we conceptualise all of our projects before we start them. And I want to talk to you about your studio and about your team, because when, you know, at the beginning, I know how small your team was. I know that your team is still a small team, but a team that's grown. So how many of you are there now? So there's seven of us now all together, including our little um we have someone that takes care of all our account you know that does accounting so yeah we're a very very small team and for what we do yeah of course exactly that you execute these big projects but with and I've and I'm always you know people think that I have a team of you know hundreds because we're sat on Boots High Street but my team is very small and I've, you know, we're now scaling and building that team, but I've kept it small on purpose because I kind of like that intimate approach.

17:32I think that's what I always want the brand to feel, intimate. However, as things get a little bit bigger, you realise that the workload is too much for a tiny, tiny team and it does need to grow. And you have to scale up. I mean, I went without a member of staff for a number of years and then my first team member came on board and she's still with me now um and you know building a team is truly one of the most difficult and challenging things about a business you know everybody knows it but one of the things that i'm most proud of is that i've worked really hard on you know understanding what i need as a creative lead as well as what my team need and also what the clients need i think that's what i wonder with it's when you have a service-based business and you you've you know you've got all of this opportunity that you want to take with two hands and lots of incredible projects that you are able to work on when somebody I suppose as that starts when somebody wants to work with her zealot they want to work with sally and I think as every more opportunities come is that a hard thing to manage with clients where there's only one of you and of course your team are and I know this about your team are so reflective of you because you've done such a good job at nurturing them um is it quite a hard thing so can that be a challenge when somebody's like so I need to talk to you but you need to talk to everybody that day and where it's service-based people book you and want you of course and that's where it's an education for the client during the onboarding phase and something that, you know, I took too long to get right.

19:17Okay. Because I was micromanaging everything. But is it, and I can relate to you here, it's a hard thing, nobody wants to be a micromanager because we know that it must be really hard to work under somebody that micromanages. But when something is your baby. Absolutely. And your business is about being very personable, it's quite hard not to handhold a bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. But when we when we've done it and when I did do it, it was such a liberating thing because it really is as a service based business. It's the only the only way that you can expand. Yes. Is working out who your people are like my team are my people.

19:59They're my family, you know, as far as I'm concerned and watching them grow and develop. You know, one day I'm not going to be around to run the business because I might be like, I am going to take a backseat. and you know the girls know that when the time comes or you know it's theirs and and that is the way to do it but it's educating the client from day one and so clients that have known me for a number of years they know they've got my number because we become like friends you know I become an auntie to the kids I become a married you know confident there's a real genuine love and respect for our clients but new clients coming on board and this is something that I you You know, it was an internal battle for a long time, having the courage to say, welcome to Hoselec.

20:44Whilst I will always lead this team, my eye will be across absolutely everything. Look at these incredible humans that I've got working for me and look how talented they are. And also for yourself to not be so accessible. I think that's something that I think I would struggle with is that when you're service-based, it's like, when do you then switch off because say for example I finished my job and I'm like do you know what I need to do tonight I need to ask Sally about x y and z because I've finished work and then I've messaged you but then so you know and it's there has to be a point where you do actually switch off to not be always available of course to live your own life of course and that's something I do I mean still now I struggle with I've noticed you've got better in it though and I'm pleased I'm pleased thank you girl give yourself a life too I am working on it for sure it's a real challenge because it is your baby it's like someone giving the baby saying oh well you can nurse my child for the next 12 months and I'm just going to bob in and out like my work is literally my life it's my obsession I'm very lucky to do something I love but I also realise particularly as I'm getting that little bit older that I do there definitely has to be that work life balance and giving you know giving that control to my team and that sense of ownership has been one of the most liberating things that I've ever done and so you know for other people in business I would definitely service-based educate your client and then have the confidence to pass it over to your team and you're proud of that team you've built you know how well they can you know they reflect you and you are one like we say the team is everything 100 % and one of my proudest moments actually in business was when we finished a project and two cards came in the post and there was one for me and there was one for kk from my team and it was a handwritten note from the client and to some people it's a card to me that was everything yeah like this girl with me has worked on your project she's lived and breathed it in the way that i have yeah and we would and now that kind of commitment and dedication to her celic has like filtered down to the team i've got now it's just so incredible But that's all come from and I've watched it.

23:01It's come from you and the time and the way that you spend nurturing that team. You can tell how much they want to show up for you, which is the best kind of. I mean, compliment you can ever get. Right. Like they want to do you proud and they do. And you can you can see that. I want to talk about. like challenges too because I think you know I've I've seen your growth and I've seen that I mean even like on social and I know that you're pushing yourself to do more on social now because it's not something that you you know that is it's another job in itself isn't it trying to run that because that's actually a big thing Rosh like for years no one ever saw my family yes ever only my clients and that was never intentional but I am that girl that's up at six in the morning I'm going to bed I'm still in the office at 11 o 'clock at night.

23:51I'm like, lock me in girls. I'm here for the night. Like, you know, it's quite a fun, like there is an element of vulnerability. Also, it's the time because, you know, there's a reason being an influencer is a job. People don't give social media enough credit for how long that takes. And it's not just like film a bit whilst you're dressing this side cabinet. Like it's a job to get that right too. And you're a lady of aesthetic and you're like, you're going to like it to look a certain way. So sometimes you sort of don't put yourself in the front and centre knock because that you don't want to necessarily because you actually haven't got the time when you're doing everything else.

24:25Has there been like a challenge as a business that you have had to overcome? I mean, I have challenges every day. I always say to my team and actually a really special client of mine who is also an entrepreneur told me this. She said, Sally, not every day can be a wedding day. Some days have to be wash days. And it's something that I take through with me. you know and my difficulties when I started the business like running a business is difficult in itself right but my difficulties back then are different to my difficulties now right it's a different difficulty but it's a beautiful difficulty and and so in the early days now I do have that credibility within the industry and people you know it's very easy to research someone before you start working with them so contractors do give give us a lot of respect before we've even kind of put pen to paper which is great but historically you know when I was first working in London as an interior designer working in a very male dominated environment very masculine energy there were so many challenges that I had to overcome and part of like mothering my team is like learn from me listen to what I'm like always stay true to who you are because it's little things like you know an architect would go on to site or a male designer would go on to site and if they're very confident about the way they present oh it's like he's very assertive if it's a woman she's condescending if a female questions the status quo on site like oh that i'm not sure if that's quite right should we do it that way fine for a guy to do that but for a woman it's like oh passive aggressive not going to do it almost like no i'm not saying we're not going to do it that way i'm just questioning it's very bizarre that that disparity i actually remember we were we've done lots together but the house um that we renovated the one that was in Eppin years ago we renovated this lovely house and Sally was like hands-on and I remember somebody one of the contractors at the time there was definitely a level of male and female respect and I never forget that, I think Marvin overheard it.

26:37I never forget him saying, that's it, we're never using him again. We never did. Because it was just, it's so kind of archaic, but you really, and it was interesting for actually another man to see it and, you know, hear the way he would talk to certain people, but then you would come into the picture and the whole demeanour changed. But I do think it's kind of like it's archaic, but it's breaking that when you think of contractors, you just do think of male contractors. You think of like, you know, they've been in that trade for however many years. And I suppose there's a little bit of kind of like bias there that's kind of hard to shake.

27:14Absolutely. And because those sites, there's a lot of masculine energy, which, by the way, I'm I'm here for it. Like, you know, I'm not there walking around with my incense stick, but I definitely bring an empathy to sites. yes you know and and the the male energy would say oh too sensitive well i actually know that's empathetic yes and actually the interesting thing is i've i've literally encountered it where i've seen everybody sort of heads together scratching their head thinking how they're going to do something and then sally will walk in and be like okay guys well that's not the energy we're going to make this happen so let's figure out how we're going to do it and everyone sort of looks up like oh oh okay fine and bet your bottom dollar it gets done um which which is so interesting and what I love about you and working with you is actually that there is always that energy thing and I think it's so important when you're in someone's space whether that's you know at work and you helping us with this beautiful office or in somebody's home that actually we're big on energy anyway but energy is everything and when you're in somebody's kind of safe space it's important that there doesn't ever feel that kind of you know that I suppose ultimately bad energy like it's it's so important 100 the only thing that we want bringing to a project is a beautiful sincere honest energy that's filled with integrity because you know ultimately rush i've have worked with you for many years and we're beautiful friends but ultimately there's a respect level there absolutely like you know you task me with a job i'll go away i do task her as well by the way but my my job and my responsibility and commitment to you is that we will go away and by hook or by crook we will make it happen and you know what in our industry not everything can go incredibly smoothly we get shipping delays particularly post-covid we're waiting for deliveries of things you know but it's about that mutual respect and understanding and if your clients whether they've been friends for years or they're no working with you there's something that I absolutely love when people say that gal grafts and I don't mind I'm happy to grow yet you know there are some creative directors that don't really leave their studio that don't really liaise with their teams like I want to roll my sleeves up oh you are there hand on deck and I think but that's what to me really does set you apart like your your work ethic is second to none but you're kind of the you kind of extend the way that you treat your team to everybody even like to my team like we're all hands on deck you're doing camera shots you know your job isn't that's today you're actually here just to be a guest but it's kind of that energy and I think that is when I think of you that's exactly what I think of is good energy we speak about designing our future yourself.

30:08So this is something that we call set the table. And it's essentially thinking if we could sit down in a year's time, what you would like to see for the future you and for the future of Hazelik, if somebody's just listening or watching this now, and this is the first time they've heard of you and they're going to now check out you on social and, you know, really see about your business what what would you like the difference to be between right now and next year oh that's a really good question um and it's actually something we talk about a lot in house like scale how how come this brand that we're so passionate about how can we scale it so that the a wider audience can have a touch point on her selling so we're working really hard and we've made a commitment to each other within the studio that by the end of the year we'll be well on the way to launching a homeware range oh finally i've been bothering her about this for a very long time that is that would be incredible and it's been a long time in the making and talking but we're it's something now like you know if i had to give up a little bit of work ethic for bravery for example i would have done that 10 years ago like yeah i should have done it a long time ago and And it's only now and again, I don't know whether it's an age thing, whether it's a confidence thing or whether it's just actually wanting to leave a bit more of a legacy, you know, and allow people.

31:38We get some beautiful messages on social media. Oh, where can I get the cushion? Where can I get the diffuser? Where can I get, you know, and it's almost like wanting to give a little bit back to say, do you know what? Thank you for following me and my little journey. Here's a little something. okay our service as a studio you know is reserved for a specific market of course but we just want to be able to for people on more of a global scale you know not just everyone's have a little taste of that to just feel that has said it but you say that you maybe would have done it 10 years ago but you know what i really think it's it all works out in the time frame that it's supposed to be because 10 years ago you'd have had 10 years less experience of that and knowing exactly you know what you want and how it looks because that only just grows over time doesn't it so of course and we always say no regrets um but yeah it's that's definitely a thing for us and then to continue like my dream like some people want to build a business and make it multi multi million dollar for me I want to continue to live a beautiful life lead a simple life but actually with my work get to travel and so around five years ago I started on a manifestation journey um which you're all so big on and it was like you know in five years time I'd like to be doing projects in the USA and the Middle East and then hey presto here we are my team and I we go on these amazing journeys I was in the Middle East last week the rest of my team were in the French trivia on a project and it and it's those moments where I'm just like like how's this gal from you know Rowley with her swags and tails in a bedroom you know at kind of seven years old like how has this dream become possible and it is like it's hard work but it's it's a dream and I just you make your own luck that's what they say right that's it girl you manifest but the rest is hard work and there's no use manifesting and just sitting there you've got to do the extra 50 % and you do the extra 75 % you know I always kind of end these conversations by finding out how you spend your lunch hour and I we go from the serious exposed and to the light I just know I am um I I'm so interested in what everyone eats and it's just me you know me I like I like a good natter and a little lunch break whether I'm working it or whether I'm sat down how do you spend it Sal what are you eating where are you how does your lunch hour look okay gal so I am my days are absolutely bonkers so I'm kind of I do my quiet time from six in the morning until nine thirty when the girls come into the office.

34:32And I tend to work all the way through because I'm going from one desk to another and we're talking about ideas. So I am that gal that's like on the centre console in our big design shoes. You're like grabbing, going for the biscuits. Although just lately... This is a good biscuit, never hurt anyone. And, you know, grabbing and going. I'm not great, but just like I'm doing... My friends have forced me into a bit of a health kit because, you know, getting to that age where I've got to really take care. So now I'm kind of, if my go-to lunch at the moment is something that mum's meal prepped for me, that's frozen or put in containers and we, you know, we're warming up at work.

35:08So a wicked stew or a soup. Yeah, that is the key where it's the prep. But the prep is the thing that is easier when you have time. But it's kind of like a cycle. I'm like, yeah, but I'm going to gain back time if I just prep or just save a bit of what I had last night and put that in something and take it into work. Absolutely. We can look after ourselves a bit better. Absolutely. So yeah, right now it's mama's stew for lunch. Just until I'm allowed to eat bread and biscuits. She's on health kit, guys. She's on health kit. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This has been the best ever.

35:41Thank you, girl.

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