Ep 24: Advocacy in action with Five X More

0:12This week we're bringing you something new that we're calling Lift off with now in honour of National Small Business Week and bringing you some of the best kept secrets who are perhaps earlier on in their journeys or really on their way to lift off. We're bringing you a new episode every single day to shine a spotlight on these incredible women that you might not have yet heard of. Right, so let's lift off with. Today we're joined by Tanaka and Chloe, founders of five times more the groundbreaking campaign committed to changing black maternal health outcomes in the UK. Now, what began as two mothers sharing their personal experiences has grown into a national movement.

0:50From grassroots campaigning to petitioning at Parliament, Tanookay and Chloe have turned their lived experiences into powerful action. So let's find out why they're ladies who launch. Right before we get into it, if you like this episode, which I know you get it, please don't forget to like and subscribe and to share it to your group chat. Well thank you so much for being here. I feel, I've not seen you girls in what feels like an age we like check in and we're like I've seen you do this and we send what um Tineke would call podcast voice note she's like sorry I've sent you a podcast voice note I love it um but so good to see you and I'm so pleased to have you on I should we start by introducing you both and what it is you do okay do you want to go yes so I'm Chloe and I'm Tina Gare.

1:43Yes you are. We're the co-founders of an organization called Five Times More which is a women's health organization that specializes in black maternal health. So we do this tag team. Yeah always. It's to actually take me back to my girl band days and I enjoy it. You kind of start the sentence and everyone finishes it and then you're in unison. how it goes it worked um i got to know you how many years ago would we say that was four four four years ago yeah it must be yeah my daughter was one yes yeah oh my gosh 20 was it 21 one yes yes so and i think we'd sort of had pre-conversations in 2020 because that was when the stark figure was kind of released into the media and that's when you guys were pretty much born and the stark figure I'm talking about is that black and brown women were five times more likely to die in and around child birth yeah than their white female counterparts so let's talk about that figure what that meant to you and why five times more was then born I didn't have a great time with my first birth with my son I had preeclampsia that wasn't diagnosed and a whole host of other issues but it wasn't till quite later on in my pregnancy that they found that I had preeclampsia and I remember the the midwife taking one look at me and she was in shock she was like go straight to the hospital and where I was induced and I just had a terrible time and at the time I was running an organization called mums in tea and you know it's at a mother's meeting get out the house make a mommy friend that's how i stalked this one on social media i slid into her dms as she likes to say she did we all like that yeah asked me to come to her house and i came oh stop here we go it's a good friend you have to make friends um but yeah at the time i was hearing a lot of black mothers experiences of giving birth right and you know coupled with my own coupled with actually even asking my mum you know like mum what was it like yeah what was your experience like giving birth to us um as you know a black nigerian woman in the uk and she was she burst into tears you know like my strong nigerian mom you know a tough tough woman and i was like right we have to do something about it and that something was just supposed to be a one-off event it literally was not supposed to be what it is now literally it was one event we planned to do together i reached out to her because she was working in maternity at the time right and I was like I've got the big mouth you've got the experience yeah why don't we just you know do something to raise awareness but I guess God had other plans like and those other plans kind of to what five times more is today even for over the four years that I've known you and watching it and the pride that I feel because I know how passionate you both are about this issue and an issue that nobody has ownership over because everybody's story is so personal but you do such a brilliant job in kind of articulating that message and making sure it travels far and wide can you tell me obviously we know it's a maternal health organization but could you tell me exactly why it needs to exist yeah it needs to exist because at the time everyone knew about the statistics everyone knew black women were five times more likely to die during childbirth pregnancy and six weeks after we have to remember the six weeks after but no one knew what to do about it so myself and Tanaka was like what can we do so it was about all about um doing policy changing so going to the government and telling the government black women more likely die what are you going to do about it are you going to put a target are you going to look out training and then also it was women we wanted women to do something about it to feel in power and be able to advocate for themselves so that's why we started the steps you know we had the five recommended steps at first and now there's six recommended steps because we're like we don't want you to be scared to give birth you know I've had I have two boys my first experience was amazing and my second wasn't the best but I want women to know that if you're black you can have pussy birth story yeah so we just wanted to equip women with things yeah and i think that's what's really hard isn't it when you're trying to i think that's what you've both done so well when you're trying to educate you also don't want to scaremonger yeah and it's such a fine line right because you want people to know what to have what could happen and how to be equipped if you are going to be in those situations and how to advocate for yourself but also you don't want to terrify the life out of women that are either about to about to deliver a baby or you know are looking to kind of get pregnant it kind of it's such a scary place and I think that's what can kind of happen in you know I've seen it in my family whatsapp chats with you with I think in the black community where it's a kind of community that is scared to when it comes to health anyway yeah and I think we saw that a lot over covid right say that covid yeah that was that was a really kind of big moment where everyone was like okay we need to kind of do better here but in like family group chats and asking I remember when we were working on the dispatches documentary together which is where I first met you both that I know I'm asking my family their experiences and it kind of really did snowball because it's the questions that we don't ask right so how did you kind of bridge that gap of being a source to kind of educate and empower versus scaremonger but say we learned we didn't get it right at first we did not we really didn't we didn't it was like if you went on our website at first i think just to give a bit of context i'm a context kind of babe yeah when we started five times while i was pregnant with my uh second child so i was like no this is not happening again this like for selfish reasons but obviously for everyone else as well you know i was like i don't want what happened in my first uh birth to happen again so being pregnant and helping write those steps and getting those things out there i was like everyone needs to know and i don't care how it is i don't care what the message is just get it out there right and it was big black scary capital letters our website was like really scary to go on and we got feedback black women are likely to die and that's almost you looking back now with hindsight it's a wonderful thing isn't it that you're kind of like actually maybe the messaging was too bold way too bold way too bold but we were just like we want to shout it from the rooftops but obviously we we don't know about branding marketing I've got a HR background she's got a business background we didn't really know much about like branding and using the softer colours and like saying it in a way that is kind of welcoming welcoming we're not trying to scare you we know that this is a thing but we also here are some resources and things that you can do so it doesn't happen we didn't get that right at first yeah and and do you know what it's kind of the way that you start it's not it's not you have to evolve and you look back and think goodness me that isn't maybe the messaging wasn't clear maybe it wasn't what we wanted it to be but you're you have to start somewhere right what how do you you've got this mission and it's very when something is that personal and also triggering to you too as well as the people that you're advocating for how do you go from two mums with a passion and a real fire in their belly about something to a full blown movement i think because it just happened i think we didn't plan to do five times more it kind of just was birth because we wanted to raise awareness and i just think since then and we just seen the gap and we just carried on by that.

9:41We keep plugging that gap, to be fair. I think for us, it was almost a, it's a bittersweet moment as to why Five Times More actually got so popular because obviously, as you know, in 2020, we had the murder of George Floyd and everybody kind of was rallying around and trying to support causes. So we started in 2019, our petition was already live and then people had something to jump onto. So it wasn't, it wasn't as if oh in 2020 we realized it and we just kind of i don't want to say jump on the hype because it was a you know kind of across the board exactly people like you say out of what was an awful and tragic event yeah there was then all of this kind of light bulb moment that everyone realized actually guess what we should be supporting black businesses we should be buying black books for our children which it kind of was this light bulb that went off which as we know there's still a very long way to go but it was that real it meant a lot to lots of different people at that time right yeah i i always wonder when it comes to organizations because i know how much that you both had to give up to make this happen how does that work because i know that you you are kind of the queens in my eyes of spinning plates because you've got to eat you've got this thing that you're passionate about but at the same time it isn't a money maker you kind of you're trying to do this because you're so passionate about this cause and that is something you will never give up on because you'll never not be passionate about maternal health right how does it work does it do is there funding that you're eligible for is there i just i'm so curious as to how you make this happen and feed your own children yeah whilst looking out for everybody else yeah we always say we did it the other way most people like get rich and then they which is why this is so admirable because like you say it normally comes the other way around we've got this platform and this opportunity and this pot of money to be now able to help other people yeah but for you guys this was people first i'll figure out myself later and honestly it's so it's so admirable tell me how that looked i think we were passion driven yeah that's that's the thing i always say if i knew i don't think i would have done it as much as i love five times more i just didn't know i was just going in there like oh look i said you know let's do this i was like yeah let's do this not realizing that it's an actual business we're not just a grassroot organization we're actual business and we need a roof over our head so we do rely heavily on funding and donations like people like yourself you i don't think anyone knows that when you did disparities you actually gave us your fees which was nice because it's never something that i would want to declare it's like guys i'm doing this for and it's so far i remember there was well there there was quite an influx of a lot of, when it come to me, I was in that documentary, we won't go down that rabbit hole.

12:49But I, we know - We should have laughed so hard. We shouldn't be laughing so hard. We should have laughed so hard. We should have laughed now. We should have laughed right after the fact. But at the time there was a lot of heat on that documentary for the wrong reasons, which was such a shame. But you never want to stand there and be like, actually guys, I'm doing this. And I'm not, you know, this is, people thought that I was doing it to make money and there was a lot of hate like you're rich enough give the show to somebody and I'm like I'm not making a penny this is we're all here for the greater good and you know and we've seen lots of people do that with you Mo gave his Mo Gilligan we're talking about when he hosted the Brits his fee went to you guys and I love that and that's what this is all about there's no point in having a platform if you can't use it in the right way but how does it so you do rely heavily on that so how does that look for you guys because i'll imagine there when there are moments that you're seen and there are moments like the brits right and there are moments like the documentary where the fee goes to you guys and then that puts more eyes on it too because then mo made that statement i remember seeing it thinking yes i've loved that i've seen that for my girls um and then it draws more attention and i suppose that snowballs and other people get in touch but then there are going to be months that are quiet yeah many months

14:12absolutely you know i think we've we've actually made it work so even though it's like a non-profit we we're still we can be entrepreneurial in our spirit and what we do and how we help women so for instance we do have our um colorful birth wallets which are available in all of south east london in all of the hospitals um and that's something that the nhs pay for you know um and And it's something that it's a wallet with advocacy information for women. It was supposed to be designed for black women, but they're giving it to everyone, which is amazing. Which is brilliant. Information anyone can use, right?

14:49So we've had to do things and be really entrepreneurial and think outside the box when it comes to, we can't just rely on funding and donations because like you said, there are quieter months. Of course. And we're still running a business as much as it's non-profit. And we had to really drill that in our heads. yeah to make sure that yeah but charities do make money non-profits do make money and as you say it goes back to your original point it's this has all kind of been birthed by accident yeah it was supposed to be that one event that you thought it'd be a good idea to help but it shows you how much that everybody's grabbed onto it because it's needed yeah but equally you've not got a business plan there's no model there's no what do we do you're kind of no one's done it before no one's before it's happening as you go which is the beauty of it right and like you say chloe if you'd have known that from the start you'd have there are moments that you'd have probably sorry but the passion keeps me the passion keeps me and everybody that when i'm having these conversations and actually you're kind of the first organization that we've spoken to but the entrepreneurial spirit is as much as the passion is what keeps you and those things are so intertwined and every big guest from emma greed to joe malone to those names the thing that keeps that fire going is the passion because without that the days are hard like you said if you could have looked at the future in the times that you're like well we can't now afford to do this and this man now means this not gonna this isn't gonna happen if you'd have seen that up front would you have stayed right but the fire and the greater good and the reason that you kind of living and breathing this is what keeps you here without that you wouldn't be in no right no it's hard stuff but remember we're dealing with people's trauma traumatic experiences people people when they see us they they literally you know which is great feel like it's a safe space and they can talk to us because of the work we do but then sometimes people trauma dump and they tell us about their really negative experiences or they show us pictures or videos videos oh we've seen a lot of stuff right and we want to help and we want to point in the right direction but you've got to remember it all still comes to us and we still see it and it's still triggering for you very very and i think that's what is so important about what you do is creating that safe space but you've got to take time for yourself yeah how do you do that how does time for mum look oh my gosh i we know when to take time so i can tell when to look at stress and having a hard day and i tell her it's okay i take over she does the same thing for me so if i'm having a hard time she'll say i'm taking over and that's how we work well together but there's all stuff i love to go and walk pray faith it's very strong and pilates i love pilates we became pilates girls recently has it changed your life yes yes i am so passionate about it yeah that i honestly think it's the only time of day and i've not done it today and i'm already like oh i feel a little bit it's the only time that I don't think about anything else.

17:56Because you can't. You can't. What do you mean? You're trying to figure out to get your... They do say that you're so in your body that you're out of your mind. Yeah. And I think that to me is the importance of like, and like you say, that can be walking, however that looks for you, but finding that time for yourself is so important, particularly when your role is actually lifting everyone else up all day. So you can't be lifting and pour out of an empty glass, right? I suppose that the way the industry has really embraced you and I've actually realised that there are, these are the conversations we need to be having, right?

18:31So I want to talk about Coronation Street. Big storyline, big soap, big ITV. When they're taking on a storyline, and I've seen it when I host this morning, that storylines that are big, whether that's like an anti-bullying one or we've seen suicide storylines or um motor neurons you know lots of those different soaps will take charity advice and organization advice when they're tackling those big moments and you are the go-to so coronation street took on that big storyline and you work closely with them to kind of consult across that how was that because that's that's kind of different experience altogether isn't it yeah it was kind of surreal because you just think coronation street is like the longest running you know it doesn't get bigger than that yeah it's huge you kind of feel a bit like oh my god is it s yeah like really yeah um it felt it felt good that you know they were even highlighting a story yeah they trusted us to to come and they're highlighting such a huge issue on a massive platform like that i feel like it's a step in the right direction in terms of of raising awareness, which is one of the biggest things that we wanna do.

19:44Well, that's what I mean. We're talking like how many kind of homes that that lands in. And we're talking, I remember when we did the documentary, the dispatches documentary, we thought it was gonna be an hour, but it was half an hour. Like it was like the conversation was there and we're just tearing on the edge of everyone being ready for it, but it wasn't quite ready for an hour. But we had so much footage and we're like, so many stories to tell that we had to get in that small frame of time. so the fact that like fast forward however many years on four years it's now on a soap like you if you just said that to us at the time that would have been like it's true you know like that's actually crazy right it is and i wasn't expecting carnage street i think when we got the email last year i was like carnation street yes really okay i was like they're still going this is good so having to consult them there was us and two other organizations um birthright and motivational mom's club they're amazing as well especially motivation mom's club she's amazing um and um so we consulted them and went back and forth saw the saw the storyline went back and forth advised them right and then to see it come out and didi she was amazing yeah she played her role so so well no there's nothing i can say about it it was it was good they've They've done well, they've done well.

21:06And for you to be, like you say, that trusted, that's, you know, you are, like you say with those other amazing organizations too, you have become such a reliable source. Yeah. And I think that's what, that's, I suppose that's the goal, right? To advise women in the right way, but to become, I suppose that's a little bit of a moment that you think, okay, people are, we're getting there. yeah and it's a bit of a kind of milestone yeah it makes sense definitely it's random that you say that actually somebody tagged us in a post uh uh this uh i think an influencer was just talking about like make sure you trust the sources on the internet don't just believe everything you say you see i think it's like a midwife and then someone was like well some trusted resources are five times more and i was like yes girl but seeing that it's like oh my god like obviously we know how we see ourselves but to see how other people see us and they see us as the go-to the trusted resources and um and they're highlighting it to others and sharing it with others that's like oh my god this is actually what we wanted you know and that's what you need when you're dealing with women in a vulnerable time is trust that's how you want to feel with your midwife you know and we talk about the maternal health care that is whatever race your midwife is when she comes into you you want that trust and you want that attention right and that's what it comes down to and that's what you were doing so so well I want to talk about the live TED talk not my girls doing a TED talk tell me I mean that's a big old milestone isn't it goodness me let's talk about that how it come about and how you felt in that moment Ted Talk nearly took me out, man.

22:51Yeah, nearly took me out. If I tell you. Oh, gosh. How I came back, we actually got email. So I didn't know people were supposed to apply for Ted Talk. We got emailed and asked, do you want to do a Ted Talk? And we were like, what does that mean? Yeah. So I'm not a public speaker. So I was like, maybe. She was like, yeah. I was like, hey, I'll do it with you. Because I was like, I'll say do it by yourself. I didn't want to do it. I was like, no. This is all coming back to me now. I remember this before. You always just push. Let her do the talking. I just sit and smile. Do you know what? That's what being in a good duo is all about, right?

23:28It works. You know each other's strengths, each other's weaknesses and what makes you feel good and what doesn't. Yeah. That's it. So we got an email and then she persuaded me to say yes. I said yes. And then went through about the storyline, not storyline, what the content's going to be, what we're going to say and topics and stuff like that. Picked it. Changed a million times. Changed. Rehearsed. You couldn't really rehearse beforehand. because they had to keep going through it and seeing if it was correct. Right. If the sources were correct. And then the day before, I just completely forgot my lines.

23:58I just forgot it. Yeah, but if it's not your world, talking on demand of being a public speaker is very different to what you do, right? And it's something you don't feel secure in. Was you able to improvise? No, the next day I prayed. The way I prayed that night when I went home, yeah. and in the morning I said God please don't come embarrass me please do not embarrass me let people know that I'm your child and shine your light on me yeah when I got on stage I knew every word every word I got a few things wrong but you can't tell no one would know no one would know this is what I think when it comes to public speaking it's something that is so authentically you which five times more is the lines are just there as a guide you know this from your heart and soul you know and even if you wasn't following it to the letter of course it's right because it's there's no trick questions you're just you're talking on what you know how did you how did you find it oh do you know what no you say that you say that i did i did practice a lot because i didn't want to go off script right and it's not even a script because they don't call it a script it's like you have to internalize it you don't memorize it you internalize it so it becomes a part of you so like even the to be fair the training we got and the rehearsals we did the in-person rehearsals we did were really um transformative because like at first we were like just we were like us you know like shakespeare we would just get on stage rehearse and just like you know walk about and literally be us yeah and they were like stay planted because this is this is such an important topic that when you sway i'm looking at you sway i'm distracted yes and we want to hear what you're saying and what you're saying is brilliant and then we then it becomes i have to remember my lines and stop swaying and doing what i would normally do but still be me oh it was a lot so yeah it's it's it's not it's not easy and making it look easy is an art form like when i watch people on telly because i host i really appreciate that when i feel so comfortable and i feel like i just know the person i'm like that there yeah is hard that is hard to portray you know you look at the greats and people that you love that you've seen on TV for years and you feel so, like Davina McCall I'm obsessed with because she's like everyone's bestie but she the way that she is on TV is no different, like there's no there's not a slight change, a slight sort of stiffness or anything, she is just her and I think that's a really hard job when you've got so many notes to remember and everything to kind of deliver it's hard to be as smooth as she is so we love you Davina, shout out to Davina and she's the most supportive isn't she She is.

26:38She's very supportive of what we do. Yeah, she is. I want to, before we get on to setting the table, which is my favourite part of this, I want to talk about, I think we should remind people of the steps, that there used to be five steps and now there's six. So just to bring it back to what you do and telling women how to advocate for themselves, can we talk about the six steps? Okay. I think we're going to go back and forth on this one. Do you know what, it's been a while since we've had to actually recount it, but like you said, it's natural. We know it. Whatever's important. The first one is speak up.

27:16So if you feel like something isn't right, trust your gut and speak up. The second one is... I'm not going to go in order. Okay. The one that we added last was document everything. It's gone all the way to the bottom. Now we have to go in between. And was document everything. Right. if the doctor prescribes you something doesn't prescribe you something make sure it's documented and make sure you keep a documentation for yourself their names just make sure everything's written down just in case you need to refer back to it yeah find an advocate so make sure you have somebody who is not like my husband was in the first time where he's just like going along with whatever the doctor says not advocating didn't know my birth plan wasn't quite fully ready yeah get somebody who sorry husband I do love you you were fine the second time around you redeemed yourself um find someone who is as clued up on pregnancy birth and what to expect who can be your voice um maybe when you're a little bit vulnerable and you're not able to talk that's really important um trust your gut so nobody knows your body better than you this is my like in life yeah it's just a life lesson for me Your gut is so powerful.

28:27So, so powerful. So if you feel like something isn't right, trust your gut and in turn speak up. So it goes back to point one. Exactly that. Yeah, it goes back to point one. Know your rights. Know your rights. I feel like that's a separate resource. It's just like slipping it in there. Ladies, know your rights. We'll take that. We'll take that. I know, I got one, I got one, I got one. Go on, go on, go on. Trusted sources. Yes. I can't remember what the time was. make sure you use trusted resources that's it so nhs.com patient.org five times more and nice um and ice yeah those are trusted websites that one's important because as much as you know when you're like especially if it's your first time you'll be talking to your friends talking to your family maybe hearing some traumatic stories that happen and experiences and you know you might not have had the best advice or you're not quite as clued up as you should be so getting information from trusted sources is so important because you might hear one thing about like preeclampsia or epidural that might not be you know quite correct so you have to know what your facts are going in so yeah be careful of those kind of horror stories yeah i was gonna say things happen different hospitals with nice actually with um if you go on nice dot i think nice.org um they have guidelines that every hospital must follow right because giving birth for two different hospitals, they've got two different guidelines that you don't know.

29:54So go to NICE.org, look at their guidelines and that's the ones that all hospital follow. Okay, got it. I'm sure No You're Right is there. Ask for second opinion. Ask for second opinion. There you go. There's the one. There you go. Ask for second opinion. That is so important. Yeah. A lot of people don't know you can. I certainly do. And that goes back to No You're Right. There we go. I certainly do. But yeah, you have to be able to know how to escalate should you need to. Right. How to ask for the matron in charge. How to request for a second opinion. I remember with Eden, what happened at the end.

30:34Oh, God. Right towards the end. And obviously, I was nervous because of what happened the first time. And it was around COVID time. So it was just really scary, right? So I've gone in and they're like, oh, baby's measuring quite small. Her head is measuring quite small. and I was like oh my god no like she gave me information to go just just go somewhere else and get it checked because not too sure what they're saying but actually it turned out to be fine but if I had just left it oh my god baby's measuring small what do I do I'd have been worried it's already lockdown covid all of that kind of stuff and then my baby's head is measuring small what does this mean and I've gone and checked it and it's like oh it's fine yeah that's exactly that and you can you take on so much when you're vulnerable don't you and it's actually kind of being able to have a bit of tunnel vision and actually going to trusted sources getting that second opinion knowing what's right for you rather than letting that outside noise in it's easy to do because you're in that vulnerable state right um if people want to find out more information tell tell us where to go so you look at me yeah yeah your website i mean yeah yeah Our website is 5tilesmore.org We've got some really good resources on there We've got our app We launched an app not too long ago Last year So if you're pregnant and you're looking for resources Videos from Health professionals, trusted sources It's all on there, community So you can speak to other mums who are pregnant Or just have their baby I was going to add also if you're thinking about having a baby You can go on the app, use the app it's it's it's a good one that one we've worked really hard on that you have an app we have an app like this is huge i think we forget that we have an app right you wait until the end can we just put things out there we just move on onto the next onto the next yeah i think we need to kind of slow down yeah but that's what it's like to be an entrepreneur right you're on to the next onto the next so i want to set the table with you both because i love to look at our future self.

32:37I'm always focused on that and I think that's what keeps me going, goal setting and Dior, who I'm obsessed with, who is my life coach. She was on our first ever Launchbox. We spoke about designing your future self and it's been with, so I had so many people engaged with it. So I thought we would do this for Small Business Week. I want to know how you would set the table for yourself tomorrow. so if we were to come back in a year's time and do this how would that look how do i mean and that's as individuals and that's also for five times more uh for five times more this is going to sound counterproductive right i don't want us to exist no it doesn't sound i know exactly what you mean we exist because there's a disparity let's be honest and we hope that the work that we do actually resonates and helps to drive that gap and close that gap we don't want to do the work we do like as much as it's great and we're helping people we just wanted it to be no times more you know we don't want women dying we don't want women having bad experiences so I guess what for the future of five times more literally is to run ourselves out of business because that means things are brilliant that's the perfect answer genuinely is because it's so funny we do these episodes and you know people talk about the future and what plans they've got but that is the plan is to for there to be known five times more and you'll have all and you'll have created this incredible legacy as chloe and teneke but not to have it exist is the goal which is the irony of this because normally it's like well i hope we're here and we're taking the by storm but they're actually the plan is that we don't exist yeah we want women everywhere to have better births safer births and that's the goal I mean that is I don't know what else

34:43and for you guys as individuals because you as I said you're spinning so many plate I always think like if you like dig into yourself how do you want to feel when you walk into a room I think that's really important and I've spoke to other guests that have said sometimes I get a little bit of imposter syndrome and I'd like to walk into a room and feel a little bit more secure but for you as individuals what does your future self look like you can go first my future self my future self it's a good one my future self I feel like I'm quite confident you are as it is I'm quite confident I'm quite that chatty but it would be to just maybe use these more than that okay you know yeah do you think I'm a good listener no I interrupt too much you are a good listener she said do you think I'm a good listener whilst answering our own questions literally while interrupting I would like to you know my mum always says you've got two ears for a reason and one mouth for a reason you listen more that's really crazy I'm going to listen to one mouth listen more than you speak and for me for my future self just like my husband always says baby you're not aware of your surroundings read the room talk a little bit less just take it in and there we go by the way i find that the most endearing thing about you that you're just there but i know what you mean for yourself sometimes you maybe you'll go in too quickly when actually you should have just sort of stepped back a little bit i get that i have a bit of that i get it how about you i'm gonna say opposite to what you said be more like you right yeah but this is why you're the yin and yang for each other this is why it works so incredibly well yeah yeah i don't i don't really know because i'm more i like to blend into the furniture and analyze and just look um yeah she's taking it all in i just take it in and smile and be like lord okay um i think mine will have to be more family life i want to be more present for my kids that's my thing um my kids do different activities and instead of watching them so my son does tennis I'm inside a caf on my laptop but I'm not watching him play so maybe be more present at their activities game and when my son plays football I'm in the car I can't stand football don't know what's going on and I just sit in the car while he's playing football so maybe be more present I'm there but actually be there I yeah I can echo that with you that is the hard thing about trying to make everything work that I'm the one that's like at tennis like like really good sweetie and like watching it and then like i've missed the moment and i'm like mommy did you yeah i did i did and you're like oh they're only going to be little for a small period of time and then you want to be hands-on but you also want to build a life that they're going to be proud of and fortunate to experience so it's kind of that i feel like everybody has that push and pull that mum guilt i think is always happens in the background unless you're emma greed who i'm obsessed with that she says i never have it i don't have mum guilt i don't believe in it and I because I'm aware of what I'm doing and I'm doing it for my kids and they're really aware of that which that's that's the future self that I want for myself you know I'm getting there I'm getting a lot better but just to I want to be present for my kids and I am I when I'm there I'm theirs and I'm with them but there's just those moments like you say that you're trying to get everything all done in one day that you're at the sport on the laptop on the phone and that I would like to delve down a bit.

38:34I don't know if I'd call it mum guilt because this is going to sound so bad. No. I actually don't want to watch him play football. So I'd rather be on my laptop. Love it. So I wish I wanted to, I don't care for football, it's cold. I want to be in my car. So that's the issue. The issue is that you want to be present. Because I want to be there. Right, okay. So it's like, okay, so you've got to try to, you've got to flip it in your mind. I love football now because my son loves it. Yeah, I love football. I love tennis. Great job. That is probably the realest thing anyone's ever said and I'm so dear for it.

39:12Right, I want to find out because I ask every guest across every episode. I'm so nosy. I like to know how everybody spends their lunch hour. Okay, that's a good one. Okay. Where are you together? Where are you? How does it look? What are you eating? what should go to yeah how do you do lunch it depends so we it depends so if we are together in the office it's chinese yeah chinese we have a wicked chinese next to our office what are you all doing um prawn and vegetable uh just that's it what one prawn no no no No, no, loads of prawns. One prawn and one carrot. Give me some details. What is it? Like a prawn and a carrot?

39:59It's mixed vegetable. That's literally it. That's what it's called. Yeah. Prawns with mixed vegetables. And you'll nick some of my rice. And I'll take some of her rice. Oh, okay, fine. Okay, got it. Like a stir-fry vibe? Oh, no. No, it's very watery, isn't it? It is. It's like a soup, but it's not a soup. It's a soup, but it's not soup. Yeah, literally. Literally. And then I take some of her rice. Because I won't finish my food. And it's cheaper that way as well. listen waste not want not waste not want not that's what they say okay Chinese for lunch Chinese and you get house special I'll get house special yeah it's quite heavy right but it just gets us through what we need to get through and then well it does feel like a good treat at lunch time and then if we're working outside of our office we get a garden breakfast and you get a full English breakfast yeah yeah so we only eat in the morning if we're working outside the office we'll eat in the morning and not have lunch.

40:51So first thing in the morning we'll meet each other. Have breakfast. Massive. And then? Work. Work. Oh, okay. And then what? And then straight through to dinner? Yeah. Probably snack in between somewhere. Snack for you. We have a fruit salad from lunch from Evanesa. And if you're working from home I will have chicken and broccoli. There's always chicken and broccoli in my house. Okay. So I have that for lunch during meetings. I'll just have whatever I had for dinner. I'll just make sure I'm that girl I'm like just I don't need to think I'm just gonna heat it up it's normally a duck wrap you would seem to have for some reason oh yeah I mean it's just it's too good yeah I'm with you I'm with you there um I that's been my favorite lunch hour ever by the way the prawn and vegetable you peaked there you peaked the prawn and vegetable um girls I've loved this I've loved talking to you what you do is so selfless and I don't think you're aware of that.

41:48And of course you're both entrepreneurs and you're both making it work, but actually for everybody else as well as you and to do something that also does trigger you daily. I admire you so much and you know how I feel about you. So thank you. And I'm excited for the future. I'm excited for the future for you. I'm excited for the future of five times more because in the best way possible, we hope it doesn't exist. Yes. Thank you girls. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you.

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42:43Thank you.