Ep 27: What inspired Ama Amo-Agyei to build a purpose-driven, plant-based beauty brand?

0:11Today we are joined by an unstoppable force behind a game-changing wellness brand. from starting her business in the middle of the pandemic to scaling into a multi-million pound brand. Her journey is a masterclass in resilience, innovation and purpose-driven entrepreneurship. Please welcome to the podcast, Amma Amache. I'm so pleased you're here. Thank you so much. I've been really looking forward to this. I really have. You know that I've like followed you on social for a while and I love watching your videos and I love how transparent your content is for a founder yeah and I really kind of love that this whole movement of founders being really at the forefront and I find it so so interesting um so I'm so pleased you're here as always I like to start way back when okay I'm ready so get ready um I'm just always so interested in how people's journey start because it feels like it plays such integral part to where you end up and you know the amber that we now know so let's talk a little bit about your upbringing okay where was that and how did it look so grew up in berkshire um so i'm not from london but near london yes yes um very predominantly white area not a lot of people of color and yeah i was just figuring it out my my parents were working class they just immigrated into the country I'm the only person who was born in the UK from my family wow now three other siblings and we're all five years apart each so I'm the youngest as well right so it was very interesting growing up half my half my siblings were at the house by the time I was 10 so it was just really me and my brother me my brother then to be fair my my cousin who's like um 11 months older than me she moved in at 13 and then it was just me and her acting like she was my twin oh my do you know if I let my children have their cousins live with them that would actually be their dream it was my dream I can't lie I didn't know her I can't lie I didn't know her but once I once I did we're literally inseparable twins yeah so it was incredible growing up in a quiet area I I did enjoy that did you I did I did I can't lie I don't think I can do the craziness of London yeah I think you're either skewed one way or you're not like I really like a bit of hustle and bustle I do like to get out of it I'm not like in the center but I do there's something about that buzz that I just really enjoy but you're either but my mum is like the opposite she couldn't wait to move out yeah absolutely not yeah I like I like to dip my toes in and out we live in a good area to be able to do so yeah let's talk about kind of it's always so interesting what you think you're going to do when you're a little one to actually what becomes is always it's always brilliant honestly yeah I mean being Ghanaian there was like three jobs doctor lawyer accountant three that's it um I didn't care for any of them and to be fair I didn't actually think I knew what I wanted to do for a long time right I kind of just stumbled into the world of psychology um as I was picking my options for for a levels in GCSE how does one stumble into psychology I thought you said I sort of stumbled into no not business no no I don't know I I guess I always had a natural inkling of like trying to understand how humans work so interesting I really wanted to know that um so I remember like really watching like really deep movies like when I was like too young like I'm watching like Oscar winning movies at 12 it was so unnecessary but I just I don't know I just really wanted to understand the human experience and then once I realized like psychology was a thing I wanted to do it so that's what I did at a level and then i was like well maybe i should do it at university so that's what i did at university and i was on the road to becoming a psychiatrist so doctor ish but mind doctor yeah yeah yeah yeah that is so and you know it's so so interesting because in the black community talking about your mind i mean talking about your mind just we're not very good in society at that we're getting better yes and i think everyone's realizing that you should talk more but particularly in the black community that conversation is really left it's like a thing that you don't talk about yeah it's swept under the rug and it it's so kind of archaic but it really still is i see it in my family and i'm like if everyone's struggling you know we've got a massive family chat that's got like it's way too many people in it's on mute for a year but i check it fair enough you know like i check it but it can't be pinging off because there's like side chats that happen in the you And then you're like, guys, I've gone through 150 chats from the time I know what's happening.

4:53But I always, I'm aware that like I've got nieces and like, you know, of like, as in like cousins, children. And you always want to make sure that you're kind of the new generation know how to talk. Yeah. Which is so interesting that you took that route because I can imagine it's quite, well, it's the unspoken. It was very different. And my parents didn't know what to do with that. They were like, okay, like psychiatry, sure. like okay like something it's enough it's enough it's enough it's enough for us um they didn't understand it and yeah like it's exactly what you think it is you know mental health and all of that stuff was never discussed really yeah um and I can only imagine the turmoil that they they went through like you know having degrees and having to leave them at the door once they got to this country and having to rebuild I remember like when I was eight or nine reading like my mom's like uni papers wow man like you can kind of barely read at nine so like why was I reading them but I was yeah so I I just remember like there was always hustle so that that has always been in me I already knew how to work hard because I saw it for my parents yes yes yes firsthand I just needed to figure out a lane but yeah the psychiatry it didn't land so part of you then like you say in school then in uni what about what about it didn't land for you I think for me it was the fact that how can I because I'm empath so first and foremost I'm with you I just I don't know if I could listen to such heartbreaking stories every single day for the rest of my life like I don't know how my mental health would have been yes like 80 % of people who do psychology are just there for themselves if we're being honest like if you ask anyone who's done psychology yeah it was just it it was just a personal kind of endeavor trying to figure out kind of yeah just who am i versus like who's anyone else so i think from there i was like okay i need to figure out another way to do this because i want to help people that's my life's mission but i just don't think this is the right thing for me and then my brother handed me rich dad poor dad which is a very controversial book for some reason it is it is you don't have to like read it to like no actually do it but like I feel like it set me up to have options.

7:05It works for you. I didn't have an option of business growing up. So that gave me the option and the kind of lane to start exploring what business as a woman could look like. Yes. And then that's where. That's when everything happened. It all began. It's so interesting because it can just be those little moments that you stumble upon that you're like, now this is, I get this. this you know speaks to me I feel seen that's what I want to do so do you think do you think it was that moment that book that encouraged you to take the leap I would say it started it it started all but then I I did some more digging oh yeah of course a lot more digging like I found I mean I found some really cool people um I was I ended up stumbling around shark tank i saw shark tanks i had to watch that religiously i love shark tank so much so good so good so good so epic yeah and it just has got that real like i don't know if it just is that like american gloss yeah it's like it just is it hits different yeah it's so good like i was just watching like some of the internet marketers um like russell brunson and crunk gardone and gary v and i was just starting to like look at everyone but i started to realize I didn't see many women so that was a that was confusing yeah that was confusing to me because well isn't this an option for everyone what's going on here or are they just not visible so I did always keep that in the back of my mind um but I still consume the content just now start to direct me on where I wanted to go that's so interesting that at the kind of start of your endeavor you you already sort of had that seed planted or that was in the back of your mind knowing that I was the complete opposite oh yeah as in I think because I was in a real creative space and I was in the music industry and then in television which I still am in television but it wasn't sex did not play a part I really didn't feel such a kind of fluid industry where everybody can be creative and try you know try your hand at many different things that I didn't really realise that what that layer above it at boardroom level.

9:25Yeah. How male that would be. Yeah. You know, I kind of was on the surface of like, this is great and everyone's here. But step above, I think maybe I just didn't care to know. I just wanted to sing or I just wanted to host. Yeah. And to be fair, I think for me, I didn't let it stop me. No. And I don't think anyone should let anything stop them at all. but um i did think i wanted to change it i love that yeah and that actually that became my mission as soon as i saw it i was like how how is this a how are they telling us about what we think women buy this yeah and how many men bold men sell hair care to women utterly wild i was having those conversations about curls and I was like okay um this is how mums shop and I was like do they do they I don't think they do do you know you know call me silly but I've got two now and I haven't shopped like this yet um it's like you say it's so interesting when your eyes are open to it you become really really aware yeah um I want to know so you so you the world of business this is appealing to you and that kind of, as you say it, that watching Shark Tank and really sort of deep diving into these like inspirational people, men.

10:46Yes. What then gave you the passion to do what you do now? Tell us about Plantmade's kind of start. What was that seed that was planted for want of a better word yeah so I think it I think it was from birth um so I grew up with eczema I constantly had to switch out my diet I had to switch out cow's milk for um for almond milk I had to switch out other things I couldn't eat nuts I couldn't eat chocolate like I I had a lot of restrictive diets because like the flare-ups would be insane right and then also products as well I couldn't just use anything um so I remember like my mum used to like make soap at one point just to like make sure that I would be good and I remember getting prescriptions or steroids and my skin would be so ashy and I was like I hate this I look crazy there's some creams that I don't know if there was any lightness in there but like my skin was like one color one week another color another week that's so interesting just the foot from like a steroid yeah steroid And I think there was a little lightning situation going on in there as well.

11:58I just hated that. So I was always very like, that's why I feel like I have a great personality. Because my parents always changed. I couldn't even try and care about it too much. So I was just like, you know what? Let's develop me, who I am. Let's do that. So that was always there. And then I also knew that my parents are very health conscious as well. My dad reversed diabetes, my diet. my mum has also had some health scares and she's been able to reverse that as well this is i love these are like my favorite stories but you know i didn't piece it together until like the start of plant made but i was just like it's just like okay when you look at the journey it kind of makes sense i remember my mum like always making these concoctions for my dad and they're drinking beet roots something and i'm like this is nasty and my dad used to like hand me garlic yeah like i had to drink garlic like yeah i was like this is so like the smell would not go like you know like no but they hate me for that i'm like the garlic with the honey and the heart and the lemon and they're like no no like hold your nose but watch but watch how it's going to transform you right so i remember like dealing with all that and then i lost my hair i lost my hair at 2020 in 2020 um i was 23 at the time so i was way too young to have that happen but I was uh I was in a stressful sales role at the time right I was like oh stress causes you to lose your hair like it's not hereditary it's not in my you know I'm not supposed to be losing my hair at 20 so what's going on here so then it was just a deep dive lost my job COVID happened right like two weeks within this is a full time yeah I mean you're You're speaking about this like very factually, but losing your hair at 23, you are already in a stressful job.

13:52We're in pandemic. Like this is a, there's a lot. Lots happening. And then watching the wellness wave like spike, watching everyone and rightfully so. It was COVID. We all sort of become a bit conscious. We were going out for walks. We were all kind of really, like you say, working on yourself. A lot of DIY, a lot of, and I was just watching all of that. And I said, you know what? This might be the best time to do the thing I've always wanted to do. Have a brand, execute it however it looks, get it out into the world and also fix my issues. Now, the funniest thing is that brand was not plant-made.

14:32I was actually working on a men's skincare brand because so random. no way and what why because it was the trend like oh look at look at a niche that you know the market thank god i didn't do that yeah yeah i don't think i would have been able to execute that because i i feel like some people think they can make money without connecting with the mission i i don't think i can i don't think it works yes without well unless unless the team are connected to the mission and it's your brainchild but you've got people that are as connected as you would want to be yes how is it gonna land yeah exactly so that was where yeah and then whilst I was doing that I was mixing herbs and oils together for my own hair after doing like loads of research and then my hair was growing back my edges were coming back my hair was thriving and people were like Emma we know where you were we know where you are now what are you doing so I told them and they were like oh no one can be bothered to do all of that like just sell it to me i said i'm unemployed in covid like okay i have the time let's do it no way it's the do you know what it really the pandemic was such a funny bubble of time you know when you look back and you think i don't know how we survived how we survived like the things that i remember there's a picture that come up you know when your phone shares you like this time last year there was a picture that come up not long ago and it was me having a conversation with my mum through the window and I was like we had like yeah that's a that's a it was just a wow we actually did that that was a thing um but what it did do was really make we focused on small businesses so much show yeah which was so such a lovely time it also it gave you that time other than like baking banana bread where you actually thought what do you we all sort of started to re-evaluate didn't we who are we and i spoke exactly that spoke to amy smale and that was a time that she started designing logos for different businesses because everyone was starting one during the pandemic and that's how she raised money for odd muse i think it was such a kind of poignant time it was terrible and you know the wheels had fallen off the world but actually it we did re-evaluate and we reassessed and then we like okay life's too short we might as well give it a go so you're then so you're selling them to then friends to them friends yeah i'm selling random bottles of oil no logo no packaging just a bottle some herbal oil in it and shipping out viral mail and so is this with a with a plan that it is to be plant made yes or it is just oh i'll do this because people have asked like my friends so within a month I realized this is going mad like I turned 100 pounds into a grand in 10 days and I said okay I think this is a thing so let's ditch that random skincare thing and let's like do this as a thing so I literally took a month and I just started to ideate what is this what's the purpose what we're trying to do here at the time it was strictly hair care um I just wanted to help people grow their hair back and their confidence back um with nature and I started planted it's quite early on that you face quite a big setback yeah because at the time you're not plant made you're planted yes then what happens then 12 months into the business we do our first million I mean hang on a minute you're talking these numbers like after the first month we had a zero yeah right and then after the first 12 months million and how like in those 12 months how rapid was it it was crazy it like first six months so first five months a thousand a hundred thousand pounds this is still from my house it's from my family home how are you i mean this is like what i don't think you want to know I want to know It was manic Like I was sleeping Like four hours a day Four hours a day I was making the product I was shipping the product Marketing the product Customer service Everything I was doing all of that Just you Yeah I would call on some friends Every now and again There was a friend of mine That was at uni at the time And I was like Every You know if you want some change Just come and help me When you can So it was every other week Sometimes Like one or two days Right It wasn't consistent at all But I was literally just like Living and breathing this thing every single day and again it was pandemic time so it was already abnormal timings it was already strange time so I was just like well let's just go with it so I just had no plan I was just going with it and just using some of that marketing that I got from Gary Vee Russell Brunson all those people just all those techniques I was just back into I was like tweeting every single day because there was um black pound day every month yes that happened I would religiously use that to boost sales I had before and afters from the first set of customers so I already had results and evidence so I was using that and posting that on Instagram and also Twitter and I was just everywhere I was literally DMing people even like hey I started this business you have no idea who I am but like I have this thing and if this is a problem for you like maybe try it if someone else you know could use it yeah try it like I was I was on like and also an interesting time because over that time when people were getting covid they were losing hair yes covid did yeah covid 100 % caused hair loss for so many people yes so okay so this i'm just i'm getting a bit of a tight chest in thinking about how you were facilitating the orders the turnaround it was hell what does your house look like at this point no no like bus club no sleep no sleep like that's that was the vibes like my house was a it was it was you can step anywhere the kitchen was full the living room full of products boxes everything like packages royal mail were like i was actually at the beginning i was actually going to the post office and i was holding up the post office oh yeah i wouldn't want to be behind you no it was hell like it was hell and i was like oh and everyone you can hear you can hear all of that she's back I was like, yeah, I'm like, sorry guys.

21:01Realised you could pick up from the house. Started scheduling the pickups. More frequent pickups. I've got to move out of my house because my mum is, she really wants to cook her jollof rice. So I need to get out. She's like, this is it. I can't do this anymore. You're doing it right now. Get out. So, okay, right. So then in that first 12 months, you hit a million pound, which is just incredible. when you are planted do you trademarking is a lovely little issue i have been there many a time myself it's the issue that i say to people and you know particularly now i honestly if i could scream it from the rooftops i say make sure you look at the trademarking before anything happens 100 and do you know the truth is we've changed set now and in our old studio we had this picture on the wall because the time that I knew Emma Greed said she could do the podcast I was like right okay let's turn the studio around I didn't own the trademark at that point and I said look if we have to change the name let's not have anything on the wall because then I can't use it and then I have when the next time she's going to be over from America so that's and I was waiting for it I now have it but it took congrats thank you but I'm so kind of and we we started that record earlier than we were going to it was just a sheer coincidence of luck that she was over and I didn't want to miss the opportunity but it's one thing that I say to everyone trademarking is so important and if you do it up front you are going to save yourself so much pain later down the line talk to me what happened with you as far as trademarking is concerned i knew nothing about it well nobody does i had no clue nobody does i didn't i had no clue and i was like why guys like forget the marketing and the product and let's start at the beginning like the beginning is ip right um so all of a sudden trademarking came 12 months later a bit late but it came So this is you applying for the trademark?

23:11Yeah. So I think about nine months in. We should probably own this. I was like, oh, okay, let's see. And then I saw her planted. And I said, okay, it's funny. They were like a town over from me as well, which is funny. No way. Yeah. So small business. So it wasn't even like the luxury, like big conglomerate coming after me. No, it was just someone from across town. They had dissolved the business. Right. So I was like, well, the business doesn't exist. Right. So this should be okay, right? So filed the trademark. Then all of a sudden, my mom hands me this letter that's like thick. And she thought it was like a certificate or something.

23:50So she was smiling while she was giving it to me. And I was like, if you walk back the events, it's just more traumatizing. This facial expression needs work. Hands it to me. And I'm with a colleague of mine. And I open it and I'm just like, I feel like my life has just ended. like it's just like all the blood just like rushed down to my feet i was just like oh my god what have i done i just see destroy i see red i see it was so dramatic this pain it was so dramatic i was just like oh my god like someone help me it's so out of your control yeah it's so out of your control and you're like do that and i remember i had a similar instance where i call my lawyer at my trademarking law and I'm like do I is this do I have any legs here and when you hear no yeah you're like okay so what is and you know then you just try to have to try and work out to it being the best solution if you've got someone that's you know willing to do that on the other end yeah and it was it was tragic because with the with the growth came not not so much a um a big responsibility but still big enough had staff um we went into a storage unit and then i had signed a lease a three and a half year lease into a new building six thousand square foot unit right so i'm getting handed this whilst i'm doing legals for that oh god so i'm like feel every bit so i'm just now like now i've got like big girl bills coming in still have the staff need the staff and i potentially have a business anymore like what do we do here um i don't know how we figure this out so i called my lawyer friends and they were like okay i don't do ip but speak to a lawyer friend of mine spoke to a lawyer friend of theirs they were like no you don't you don't have the legs here you're gonna have to figure something out um i was like okay because they were like i saw payment i saw a figure that they want to be paid i said okay this is greedy we're not doing all this um can we just rebrand can you give us a deadline so we had until through some stock august no yeah august like 31st 2021 and this and and when you got the letter it was when it was may may 2021 oh my word okay so that's really not a long turnaround no and at this point so from May to August how you're sat on stock I assume in this new loads yeah absolutely loads of stock again the new buildings coming in we get the keys to the building in July you've now got legal fees yep yep got legal fees on both ends for the trademarking yeah so we we had to do a really quick turnaround so basically I just decided we're going to do a shut down sale we're going to tell customers we're shutting down for a few months and we're going to have to come back.

26:52Now that, that was, I don't know if that was the best decision in hindsight. Well, it was now. Yes, but I don't know if we should have done it and stopped trading for a few months. That I don't think was smart. So did you stop? We did, we did. Right. So we came back end of October, but that's like two months of still having to operate the business with no revenue coming in. but we did have a massive like august with the shutdown sale but then what we also lost was our customers because they didn't know who we were anymore we so like we would like guys we're plant made previously planted they couldn't find us they were like where are you like and this is so interesting and at this point are you are you giving us this founder-led content at this point absolutely not right do you see what i'm saying because if you if you were ama planted but you're now ama plant made yeah yeah it's easy it's easy it's still a still a we're rebranding and it's still a you know it's the brand you know but it's different name yeah but at least you're the familiar face in front of the brand we trust right yeah they don't know me that's so hard and I'm like, yo, okay.

28:08So now we have to kind of start again. Like our revenues went so down. And the even more dramatic part about it is that the BBC were now following us around. So we had a short stint. We had like a BBC documentary because they saw my tweet like announcing the shutdown. So they were like, oh, why don't we follow you guys and see how you come back when you relaunch? Yeah, relaunch day wasn't the best and they caught every bit of it and they made that that their episode so 30 minutes of me like trying to keep it together on camera um as we're launching but it's real and that is do you know what i think it's so when you post something after the fact which is what always happens with me i just i'm too busy getting myself out of whatever i'm in yeah the last thing i remember to do is go hi guys let's make a vlog about this lovely day um no i just don't like getting me out of this lovely day and we're problem solving right you don't think to turn a camera on but actually it's that is so refreshing yeah to see and feel that you know yeah I mean for you at the time you probably didn't want a camera crew no I didn't around but but it taught me a lot and look you can look back at that and think wow it was an amazing time it's an amazing time and I think for for for me it made business realistic you know um again there are people who are successful and people will always go through problems like in business like it doesn't always have to be a dramatic thing like a shutdown and a trademark but there are little things every day that are like almost taking us founders out right and the little things start well little they feel like little things now because you've dealt with big yes and it kind of goes okay it you know it becomes a little bit of a measure doesn't it like it's not as big as that time but it's still big yeah But I think you, the resilience that you end up building is almost like, sometimes I don't know if I want to be this resilient.

30:07I don't know if I want to expect that there's going to be a fire to put out, but you become good at it. Yeah, you have to be like a boxer. You just have to be like. To the point where if one of my team ring me out there, like, can you talk a minute? I will see that message and it actually can be, can you just talk a minute? I need to know if you can approve this and the other. It could be something so obvious and easy and, you know, a day to day task. But I read that in about 10 different ways. Yeah. And I'm like, something's happened. OK, swirl up our sleeves. Yeah. Go on. What? And also, it might not be anything happening, but I just feel like I'm always ready.

30:44Yeah. I'm primed. Yeah. Yeah. Which isn't a place that I feel like I want to live in at all times. No, I don't want to live here either. But you kind of have to have that ability to be able to get ready. This is just life of a founder. Like this is just what it is. And this is why not everyone can do it. Yeah. Because like, again, there's someone who's a psychiatrist listening to someone's problems and they are able to be there and help them through that. And I can't do that. But I was built this way for this. Right. And, you know, my customers seeing their results, seeing them be happier and thriving.

31:19that is like the extra layer of fire in me alongside my team alongside you know other things that keep me going so I mean it's it's the game it's it's the game we say that it's the game um like being sort of 12 months into this and being hit with something so you came back and you fought back and yet you found a way and you use your initiative but that could be something that really just i completely repelled you from being a founder or because it's not for the faint-hearted as we just said and but it that seemed to really make you dial everything up i was like well let's go then like i earned the name in the uk us okay i'm free i can yes i'm now calling your business in peace and look what i did when i didn't own a name you know okay so 12 months in you do this sale you I suppose the sale is to get rid of any ex-planted stock that you now legally cannot use was there anything you could do with that in terms of like reworking the stock you had right okay we did so we relabeled our bottles and that really as much as we could do new packaging we had to scrap all the one I there's literally a video i only have one but there's a video of me like walking in our old warehouse and i've just got like the team and you can just see packages you could just see boxes and boxes and boxes ripped because we had to take out the old packaging out um yeah and of course then that is another cost because it's a lot of cost yeah it's a whole nother cost but yeah we just we just had to go we just had to go the main mental exercise was getting a new name me going from planted to plant made it took me it took so long can i tell you that i much prefer plant made thank you no i do which is so it's these things always a funny way of of working themselves out don't they i'm much prefer it's crazy to me i didn't even know this until i started reading your notes so was it a conscious when you're having i suppose at this point you and your team sit down and say which way we're going to do this it's got to feel right it's got to still be us what's the new name was it a conscious effort to keep plant in the name or was there like lots of names you know being thrown out on the table rub utter rubbish at this point i was like you're saying slurs to me guys like like these ideas suck like what was the worst name oh my god like my dad even got in and i was like dad this is not your ministry like he was talking about Eden Sutton.

34:04I was like, I hear it. Also, that's 100 % trademark. So we're not going to go anywhere near that. We're not doing that. We're not doing that. So the plant part wasn't necessarily supposed to be in there. Okay. I was like, okay, we can go anywhere. Where do we go? And again, this story just gets even crazier because I was called to jury duty whilst all of this was happening. oh my gosh how i came up with the name was i'm literally sat in between court doing jury service during doing jury service and i come up with plant made and i'm like that feels like very on the nose like yeah should it be so on the nose i remember texting my partner i was like plant made what do you think he was like i don't know okay i was like let's sleep on it i was like give it weak give it weak i can't think of anything else so let's just go with it so it wasn't even like i had a spiritual awakening it wasn't even anything like that i was just like typing random things and i plant made made something i think i had like god made i think there's a clothing brand i'm like made i like the made bit plant now it's got to the point where it's not just a brand it's like what we do like yeah it's not oh it's not a plant-based product It's not vegan.

35:24It's 100 % plant made. Like now it's like a thing. Like you are plant made now. So it was great because it was more than what I expected the name to be. But we've been able to make it into a movement. Yes. It's like everything really does happen for a reason. And the reason at the time you're like, why this reason? I saw this meme on Instagram the other day that says, just a question. Does the process know we're trusting it? i was like this is me i post that on my stories i was like yeah yeah trust the process does it no it does know we're trusting it doesn't it and there are times where you're really unsure you're unsure if if the if the process knows what it's supposed to do um so when you the first day august so august it has to be cleared yes then you have you have then three months off yes and you're back yes what does the first day look like when you relaunches plant made going off of like a 400 000 pound month like august and then getting your first restock which is your only restock in october to be 50k was like we gotta recoup all them months that we didn't trade and whilst we're trading and this is October we need to be doing something and then the BBC under my face wow um and yeah I didn't realize the severity of the pause and how we really lost momentum yeah momentum is so important in business and I you know I look at so many amazing success stories and I'm like oh I can see that maybe something so drastic didn't happen to the point where you guys like you know a monumental moment didn't take you off course a little bit didn't come yet you know yeah yeah yeah um so it was tough that we had to experience it so early but i was like okay we have to figure it out we have to do what it takes we have to find our customers again and and just funny people still say planted to this day do they and i'm like guys we get over four years is plant made now at this point like but it's triggering you're triggering me but you get to the point where like now you think a brand you think of how powerful a brand is and the brand associations and you know a name is there's one thing but when people really think about a brand it means a lot to the point where it's hard to like let go four years like so i'm like okay well whatever we do with plant made that brand needs to really really be powerful and be everywhere and it just shows you you continuously have to educate right you're continuous and it always we were talking about this yesterday in a meeting and we were saying that people will always and for me it the conversation is and I actually love this so it actually doesn't bother me at all but people say I didn't know my little cocoa was Rochelle Hume's business I love that that to me is like yes um and then we I was talking with another founder they were saying that they didn't realize as a brand that they do kids clothing and I said it's funny isn't it that people will always show you what you need to educate on yeah and what you need to kind of shout about a little bit more um which is which is always really interesting when you think of you had this so early on but actually bring me back to when Kim Kardashian launched Skims that was then called kimono yeah yeah yeah yeah and now skims is like the biggest brand ever in the world like up there compared to likes of apple and nike and she's in that conversation but kimono isn't yeah skims is it's so doable and obviously she's sitting on a different platform but it's so interesting that actually because she has that loud voice you would think it would be a lot harder to get rid of kimono as quickly as she did.

39:25But then you realize that sometimes things in business aren't that deep. Like people think so much sometimes about everything. And a failure is a failure, but it can go. Like it doesn't have to be remembered. And, you know, the same way life happens and life moves on, so does things of the past. Yeah, plant made is here and planted is a thing of the past. And again, it was a mistake that I just hope other people do not make. Yes, I'm with you. Just build in peace. Because it's once you know, and I'm in your camp where, how did we not know this up front? Because once, you know, you know how easy, like you would have just been plant made from the start if someone gave you an option.

40:07Yeah. You know, but sometimes it is finding out the hardest. I was really surprised that it wasn't taken. I was like, this is a great name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why is everyone got this here? Why is this going on here? It's fine. I'm not complaining. We'll take it. because the strategy to me I know you're saying in hindsight you wondered you wonder whether or not you should have kind of closed the business for a few months but I think maybe you wouldn't have had that real surge of that you know 400 ,000 pound month yeah hadn't have done so which I suppose helped you to be able to sustain those few months that you that you weren't kind of it's true operating yeah what then became your strategy because you're almost i mean there's an argument for saying it's a tougher job trying to reintroduce the brand that people know and love that is the same brand but it's slightly different to be able to go no no this is us again come back over here it's almost harder than launching a brand for the first time yeah particularly in that time frame because it's so small people are just starting to understand but it's then already changed yeah yeah so some people there was very interesting accusations some people thought it was an ingredients thing someone was like oh like and this is beauty this like this is very serious so you can't really be making these kind of accusations oh did someone have a reaction or something like that bear in mind like someone can have a reaction that's completely fine because it's to work for everyone so you can and i i'm i'm with you like yeah there can be a particular ingredient that you react to yes yes whatever product contains that ingredient yes you would also react yes yes you know there's there's like the normal thing um you know but people were trying to make it like into a thing like was it that like oh and we were like no like no it was just the name guys it was just the name um we kept the integrity of the products and the ingredients exactly the same because we manufacture it ourselves and we don't have you know we we have that ownership over the products so they're made exactly the same but then we realize okay this is now entering into 2022 this is a new market like this is essentially a new market new players new people whilst we were gone there's other people now starting to like naturally help with hair care it does just do that so quickly yeah that and that's the that's the it's like a never-ending hamster wheel kind kind of sometimes with the market because there's always someone to compete with or but I like the competition actually because it informs me of where things are going and also that this industry is still hot yeah right um so what do I need to do so I know the products are really great so we launched new products um we are a sustainable brand so we just further delved more into that we decided when our customers were asking us for like a shampoo and conditioner we decided to do bars they hated that and then that's how I first discovered you the bars really oh my god that video went everywhere that's how I first discovered you but we were just so on it and I think we were kind of like very much um doing David and Goliath marketing right we were very much like okay the big beauty corps we know what they do launch some very interesting products at times that may not be the best for you um we want to be the alternative and especially if you have concerns as well if you don't want to go down you know using drugs steroids monoxidil things like that it's a different proposition we just want to be like if you want to get better naturally this is where you come you come to plant made that's basically what it is so that was that was the the opportunity for us that we decided to grasp and it wasn't actually until 2023 that i actually started to do the founder stuff for me i love i honestly i love it so much and i think it's because you attach a brand to of course you trust a brand but when you can see someone's passion and you can see the everyday and we see you in the warehouse and we see you instantly i invest that little i'd sign invest an extra 20 percent yeah in something i'd already love because now i'm invested in you 100 yeah and i love founders like same so now like how i live my life i'm like oh i love you okay great let's buy the product yeah yeah no it's quite a circulation now but that's but that's exactly why when people are known and loved and have a engaged audience and community that's exactly why those big corporate brands want them as ambassadors because they know that that community will then be purchasing their products right and they sort of cast the net wide and go out to as many as possible and recruit that but when you see it coming from a founder's voice in someone's passion and it's kind of that influences me in a different way altogether and the thing is I think it also resonated because I had been there I showed people what my hair looked like people categorically could not tell me that I don't have the same hair that they did starting out so it got to the point where a lot of customers knew us but I was even getting stopped in the street and people were like showing me their heads like hey I'm like can you just recommend me real I was just like, I mean, fair enough.

45:21I'm not a psychologist, but yeah, I know what to get you. This is what you should get by it. But it was like becoming a whole thing, even to this day. Like, yeah, sometimes I get stares and I'm like, oh, they probably recognize me. Don't they want me to? They can ask me about the hair. I can feel it. I can feel it. One time I was walking in Shoreditch. It was the funniest thing. I was just standing there waiting for an Uber. And she didn't look at me. she just walked and said oh my god i love your products

45:51that's the best interaction you could ever have it's the best compliment ever how i want to talk about the growth you were listed on sunday times as one of the uk's fastest growing companies yeah 11 million from 100 pounds is the stat that they use we spoke about this growth we supposed to we've spoken about how quick it happened and we're talking month on month on then the first year and then you have the the situation that you didn't ever see coming but you still continue to grow first of all congratulations thank you it's absolutely incredible during that growth and navigating through that and you've spoken about the challenges but there are also many successes you know the success speaks for itself how has the team changed from the 100 pounds to 11 million well I know that it isn't in your mom's house anymore because you got the boot um how's the team changed and how has your personal role changed gosh um yeah so one thing I was was very naive because leadership is really hard it's really really hard um but also it changes from stage to stage so in the beginning I was doing everything myself then once we started to get the team in in the storage unit I started to focus a lot more on marketing product development that's really where I shine and I've realized like do you know what if you know your lanes stay there yes um takes a while to get that though doesn't it it is yeah but I'm like I really do know a lot about marketing I do know a ton about product um so I decided to stay there but then the fires started to happen like okay this needs to come in so then I also became very much operative and I was also in the operations as well I hired my brother to be my CFO my fiance to be my COO um and I was like oh is this a good idea at the time not realizing when when we got to the Sunday Times dinner that do you know how many brothers and sisters husbands and wives and all of that were founders together and I was like oh well okay well everyone's just doing whatever they like because ultimately is there a rule like there's no wall in life if it works it works right and if it doesn't please don't do it um it's always something that scared me yeah i just always worry about the but you hear so many of these incredible stories and i've got friends that have only worked with their sister because they're like not there's gonna be nobody that i trust more in the world or but i've always got scared to mix that like friends and family in a business because i would hate for anything to ever ruin the friends and those were my mistakes in the beginning right okay that's 100 my mistakes in the beginning um and and again that time was great but ultimately i i should have separated it on the on the on the staff level okay i think on a leadership level i think it's perfectly fine oh that's so interesting and it's so funny because my mom even though she booted me out the house she really was interested in what I was doing and because she's like such an amazing cook she it was very easy for her to like help me out with certain formulas right so she even started to own some of the products and she started to make it when we were in the storage unit we couldn't do everything there so she was still making stuff at home so there was like a time where I was like you're getting to retirement age you need to like chill out babe and she was like absolutely not like i'm coming into the warehouse like two times a week so like to this day like i still have to like be like girl you're in retirement you know that but she loves it um she loves the mission so um my mom's not an issue at all my brother and my fiance not an issue at all um yeah i should just made some other decisions but i almost think that is so close that it would be very hard never been a problem when it's your mom but i hear it yeah but that's why you have to know like who you're taking with you because yes my brother had 10 years in finance and my my fiance he worked in a manufacturing consultancy so it's not that just because i was working with them like they had the necessary skill sets that i needed in these roles and they had the knowledge i didn't yes yes yes so that was why it worked you know i mean so it wasn't just that they were there like they were there and they were competent because yeah because of their skill set too and then there's also a level of respect that's given across the board where i'm gonna let you do you you're in your lane i'm in my lane and when it comes to like us stepping up then we have to do that and i suppose it's also nice for you for your team to always have you there in those leadership roles too yeah i mean if you're not present and today that you're here or there's sort of that your tone of voice yeah is is is within the team because i suppose it's your family yeah exactly yeah and if it can work out for you what a privilege to be able to share that 100 with your family 100 100 so yeah an accidental family business there you go i love it though it's and i love seeing that because i think it's so if you can have it as i said it's so so so special okay should we do a rocket round i'm ready let's do it um they're altered they're slightly new oh okay i'm changing the odd one here and there which i quite like um but we'll start with the classic what do you think are the non-negotiables for launching a business product has to be on point whatever it is product or service because not every business is a kind of business um so product or service whatever it is whether you're giving to the market please let it be the top notch you can give um you have to know how to market that service or product you have to know and you have to go with the times because marketing changes every 12 hours and it's tiring but we have to we have to roll with the punches yeah um i also do think unique difference pointing that out early on and just doubling tripling down on that unique point of difference right um i think for plant made we knew two things we knew how to communicate with our customers different to everyone else but we also launched products that were really life-changing and to continue to do that time and time again and not let go of that so important you must do it um last thing would be continuous learning continuous learning you're not going to know everything in the beginning and you're not going to know the things you don't know until you get to the positions and the situations where it comes for knowledge you can't think you know you can't grasp on but you just have to learn quick learning quick is probably the best skill any founder can have so right just be a sponge and absorb it all yeah and it's the asking isn't it and if you when you're trying to learn quick not being afraid to go hi yeah do you know when you did this thing you always know somebody that's been there or you're sort of what do they say it's like the seven degrees of separation like you can access someone that's done something similar that might be able to give you a nugget of information if you ask people are more generous with their time and knowledge than we predict i think there's that embarrassment of asking specifically with the uk the bothersome like that whole like i don't want to bother you yeah yeah like it's not a bother sorry to bother you yeah it's not it's not a bother like guys like we need to like be begged sometimes like you know bother away um next question is what was the moment that you first realized that you truly launched

53:42the first launch of planted um that was june 22nd 2020 and we made i think 10 000 pounds that day and I said okay this is really something and let's figure out how to make it more of something let's get back in that kitchen

54:07what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed I'm probably going to be the most like unproductive person I just want to know the truth the truth is i'm on my phone i'm on my phone but what i'm doing is i'm either on tiktok because i mean i'm chronically online if we're being honest okay but i also follow a lot of founders right i follow a lot of founders and business owners and people just sharing their stories so i'm always like downloading that um and then either that or i'm reading an article or something like that okay yeah so first thing fact i think if everybody was honest i think that's probably the first time I am it's something I'm changing I know and we all want to get better and it's not that we're going to be on it for hours at the time but you just look don't you yeah just look I've bought an alarm clock you know because I was using it as my excuse to have my alarm is it one of those yes and also look at the time when you wake up and you think what time is it in the middle of the night So now I'm like making a habit of plugging my phone in the other side of the room.

55:18I'm going to get that. Yeah. Yeah. It's still not like sometimes I'm hanging off the bed, like it's on the side and I'm like hanging off the bed to just like wrap it up. But yeah, the intent is there. I'm getting better. Slowly but surely. One piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to.

55:37Oh, this is, this is, there's a lot of, there's a lot of them. Oh, okay. we're here for them all because the main thing is that business doesn't go how any business goes like every business is very very different so there was someone who literally told me oh this is how things are gonna go like you're gonna get from here to here here here and you're gonna do this and do that and that's not how it happened like someone was trying to tell me or advise me to compromise on the quality of my ingredients because I need to basically maximize my margins take more of a margin um and i was like well that's going to impact the customers and also the efficacy of the product um i didn't listen to it but i can't believe it was given because if you knew me you would know that that's not a compromise i'm willing to take and it started with the product yeah it's going to end with the product as well like do you know what I mean yeah so yeah just people thinking they know how your business is gonna go should go and it's always like projecting their kind of own intent onto you yeah and you don't have to we say be a sponge and absorb everything but you don't have to yeah absorb something that you don't feel yes yeah so I think it's definitely relying on your instincts in in a lot of moments because people always have something to say.

57:04Yes. But not everything said needs to be listened to. Yes. Not always by you. Fair. Very fair. What is a skill that you'd love to learn? I wish I was a video editor. Oh, yeah. I swear that would really change my life right now. Yes, yeah. I'm sure the girl is editing your video. I'm sitting on a lot of videos right now. Everyone in the room is just laughing as they're videoing. Like, no, no, no, thank you. We'll keep that job. I know what you mean. Because I have an eye that I know the way that I like stuff. But the actual doing. I think that about graphic design. Yeah, same. I'd love to be able to do what is in my brain.

57:48Rather than having to say, right. And say it down the phone or in a meeting. And I'm like, no, no, no. More like, I know what I mean. I just can't get it out. And it's not happening yet. Sometimes I feel like, I guess we're both creatives. But it's like the technical part. is yes it might be missing a little bit that's me but i think we have to be at peace with the fact that we'd be dangerous and we'd never be off our phones or our laptops if we could it was god's will it was god's will we need a bit of peace a bit of peace um what one thing that you wish someone had told you before you'd started your business trademark outside from that um I think oh this is a good question I think the thing I would wanted to hear was that it's gonna be hard but do it anyway yes it's so true because the points where people were delusional with me and when then things were going a bit left they weren't there to be delusional with me then right when you decide you're on your own when things are good like oh everyone wants to be in the party yeah um but yeah like it's gonna be hard a lot of the time to do it anyway just yeah so i'm i guess i'm saying that to you yeah stick with me no it's so true it's so true oh i love this one what would be the dream collab for your brand because we see these big like partnerships now with you know we're yet to see it and I've mentioned them already but Skims and Nike we're seeing it and I feel like Skims have done such a powerful job when it comes to collabs they're kind of bits the the way that it must boost boost their revenue and everyone else's because now it's like these drops that you want from these other big players and they come and they go but they're so powerful and impactful if plantmates could have a collab with anyone would it be i this might be niche we love niche um i'd want it to be like a herbal cafe because we use we like the shampoo's made of matcha our conditioner is made of hibiscus like that is my vibe like yes i i think a a herbal cafe with plant may have having the the products there having the drinks yes inspired by the ingredients i just think that's epic well this has got to happen i'm like next launch yes fingers crossed i need to make it happen yeah it's well we've put it into the universe today it has to has to it's like it's all there it's already launched yeah exactly how is it not done um and if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who do you think that would be it's it's funny because uh she was your first guest she's she's a dream emigrated do you know it is from here knows what it's like growing up here the mentality of the uk it's very difficult mentally sometimes to build here because we don't have the euphoric you know the euphoric you know american dream of the americans yes um but the way she's just been able to work the system work similar jobs to me and i don't know i just see a lot of synergies in our in our she and she is such a journey yeah and she is so she is so inspiring for so many reasons but i think what's amazing and i think her biggest quality is that that those kind of we spoke about them on the podcast those kind of east london values and that kind of girl's girl energy is the way that she operates business is the way that you know that's the way she grew up and it's all of those qualities that at the time she probably didn't know that they were gonna mean anything in business and now she's stateside global wherever you know wherever in the world cutting those deals and doing it in a way that is so I think unique to her and you know it is it's like you you hear sometimes when people reach a level of success they change or they you know even some people were trying to put that on me and I was like guys please we're not doing that I'm a normal person um it's just a job at the end of the day well I think what happens is we I also think that we're all scared of and I think that's the british thing in us that we are scared that change makes us we see that's seen as a negative isn't it it's seen as a you've changed and it's kind of it's it's not said or meant in a positive way but i am like yes i have not me not my values not what i you know how i treat people exactly but things have changed we should all be changing yes and but my situation's changed which is in some ways probably of course made me change but I think Emma's living proof of that a lot has changed for her but still like and the capabilities and what she can do with her life and but she hasn't she is honestly like the most like inclusive person the person that will put you herself out for anybody and I've already seen it with me and she doesn't know you know she didn't know me that well and now it's like we whatsapp and i love it although i'm like i need to play it a bit cooler i'm like hey girl we're chilling i'm girling every time but she's so so lovely and so so generous um i sort of i say close we've got one more bit before i let you leave um but i always like every guest to share a tangible tip and a piece of advice that I suppose you would give to the you pre-looking to doing this but I suppose to any lady looking to launch if you had one tip what would that be?

1:03:49We're in the point of history where business is competitive in most in most industries so it's it's hard to see that there's something that could be done that's new um and you might think it might be a waste of your time you know it's you can't reinvent the wheel at this you can't you can't there's literally been so much so many ideas in the last 100 years that it's just but still if it's on your heart it has to come out because it's on your heart for a reason launching is is the thing to do like that is that is the tip first and foremost from there navigate navigating it because there's so many things it's hard to pinpoint one thing sometimes in my head because most of the time i just see people the starting part the men the mental game of being a founder is the hardest part not the skill sets because you wouldn't be you wouldn't even be thinking about it if you didn't have the skills yes in my opinion yeah i feel like you start with everything you need.

1:04:53I feel like you start with everything you need. Yes. And as you grow, you learn along the way. But I think the tangible thing to take away from, I guess my story is, build that mental. Build that mental. That is going to be your biggest, your biggest advantage. Not only in your zones of genius, figuring out where in the business you will probably be, what you would be doing for probably the rest of that business's life yeah figuring that out and tripling down on that but also the mental fortitude of building something from scratch is is is yeah those those are my two well it just it takes every part of you doesn't it and i think that's the thing that you can't ever prepare for yeah it's like it and when i do this a lot and actually Dior who's my life coach who has been on the podcast we love her you shouldn't actually always compare it to having a baby because it is because it is you it feels so personal and so like your child that you find and she actually says you shouldn't call it your baby because actually that it makes it a little too personal I'm not no but it is really really you pestle but she says it's actually healthy to have that because if you call it your baby or you know that's someone that you've grown with and yeah and you know you wouldn't let anyone say anything about your baby but sometimes you need to say things about your business and parts of your business might fail yeah but you have to remember that it is the business that's failed yes yes yes and that's also something that's what's important I have to that I am not plant made.

1:06:37Yes. I am not. You're not. Because that's too much. No. That's way too much. That's way too much. It's like plant made, this didn't happen for plant made, but I'm still good and I'm going to provide the solution and the idea for this to go again. Exactly. Exactly. So it's always, it's so you, but it's being able to separate that and be a little bit objective. I'm working. I'm saying it cringing. Yeah. I try really hard. It's probably a lifelong journey. It is. It is. It's evolution. um and lastly i want to know how you spend your lunch hour because in my brain i you make everything yes in my brain it's like this your lunch hour is look at you you're frowning at me already you're like girl your lunch hour is so wholesome and you're like the herbs are there and we're all having like this wholesome broth.

1:07:31Is that what we're doing? I mean, sometimes I can't even lie. I'm not even going to. I love this. Sometimes I store some hibiscus. I'm like, guys, I need to make a tea real quick. But a lot of the time I'm just like, how can we do this better? A lot of the time it's how can we get to the customers more? Yeah, I'm sorry. My brain doesn't switch off, if I'm being honest. It just doesn't. It doesn't. And yeah, like I'm so in the market that I'm using other products. I'm seeing things and I'm like oh my gosh like they really executed so your lunch hour is almost still researching it's not you don't do you do you sit and take a break I do now um I don't believe you I do now I no no I generally do I love I love a steam and a sauna I love a wellness break I do love a wellness break I do love a little gym lift lift the weights and all that um but I'm probably listening to a business podcast at the same time yeah but that's good that's still a switch off that's still not your yes so that's my that's me love a walk love a hike okay love that and would you would you make time in like the working day for that or is it like are they like the bookend moments where you do that once you finish so you can switch off I've had to schedule in afternoon walk on my calendar that's a good idea yeah almost treat it as like it's a meeting like it's so the new year really I was like no I need to change like it's too much the meeting with yourself before you go back into 100 so yeah i'm trying to put that in and what are you going to eat in your lunch break after or before you walk um i eat um i'm too busy to cook to be honest so um i eat a simmer which is an um another is it a small business i don't know they're fast growing um yeah one of my mates called simi he has a food delivery business all the macros are on there it's like 400 calories 40 grams of protein oh it's done the work for you done the work done the work so on the weekends i'll cook but on the week i'm i'm eating that on the go and that goes back to what emma's saying she doesn't bother making small decisions you see simi's done it for you yeah i need to get on this i need to get on more of the small decisions i need to get out yeah i'm trying to grow this business to 100 million so you've got time to worry about what's in your lunch exactly that um thank you so much thank you i have loved this conversation it's been so so brilliant and congratulations on everything the world is yours thanks so much for having me

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1:10:19Thank you.