Ep 30: Shop Floor to CEO with Caroline Hirons: how did she become the most influential voice in skincare?

0:12Today we're joined by the unstoppable Caroline Hirons who shows us exactly what no nonsense expertise backed by a devoted community can really look like. She's a founder that comes with authority, integrity and a cult following like no other. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Welcome to Ladies Who Launch. Thank you for having me. I'm so pleased that you're in that chair. Okay, I'm scared. Are you scared? Yeah. This is like reverse roles for us because I've been in your chair before. You have been in my chair. And now you're in mine. I am in yours. It's very nice. This is a bit posher than my chair.

0:48No, hang on. You're in a great location where you are. No. You are. We left that location anyway. Now we're in a different one. And I don't know if we're doing it anymore, but that's another story. Carry on. Oh, okay. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. I always like to start these interviews in the same way because I really think, and we were just talking about, well, raising children before this. But I think sometimes the way that we grow up, and I've actually seen a common thread in all of our guests, that the way that we're brought up really kind of plays a part in who we are now and particularly in business like those values it's mad how they kind of find their way into the way that we now lead our lives talk to us about young caroline okay which really excites me i've got an idea who i think young caroline could be um i think my mum would have used the word sassy right but also So now when I look back at family events and pictures and things, I look quite introverted.

1:46I can be very introverted, but I'm a mix of being an introvert who's extremely confident. And that doesn't clash for a lot of people. Yes. So I am. Yeah, I was the eldest child, eldest grandchild, eldest great grandchild. You know, first like just all the cliches of a type A character was me. Right. We first met this morning and but followed you on social for a long time. and I love how you don't take any shit and I always gravitate to those people. There's something that I'm like, yes, I love it. She's saying what everyone else thinks. Has that always been you? Have you always been like outspoken, being an introvert but also on the other side a bit of an extrovert too?

2:29What I've always had, which I only realised was part of it when I was diagnosed at 50, was I have the ADD thing of I'm really not comfortable with injustice. Yes. So if I see injustice anywhere, I'm the person, it would be like Emperor's New Clothes. It would be me going, but he's naked. What's wrong with you all? You know, so yeah. And sometimes to a fault, like now as I'm post-menopausal, I don't really care that much. I'm not, I'm so, I'm kind of much more chilled, you know, and I always joke and say it's a miracle I've got a career because I started online as I was going into pre-menopause.

3:04We didn't talk about pre-menopause. I just thought I was bloated and moody for a long time, which I was. it's so I mean it's so positive it's so interesting how that dial has turned now and there are so many people that speak so openly about it and there's a lot more education but like you say a lot of women just didn't realize didn't know what was going on why am I eating nothing but ready salty crisps like like literally just why am I putting on so much weight why don't I want to get out of bed why do I want to stab my husband like it just was my life that for years that you kind of just sort of and then a couple of friends said Do you think you're perimenopausal?

3:40Because the thing that frustrates me is even with all the information out there and people watching this now, there will be someone who goes, oh, God, that's me. People will go, I would say, I think you're perimenopausal, you might want to get your blood, whatever. And they'll go, no, I still get regular periods. Makes no difference, guys. The minute you hit 40, like 35-ish plus, you're on the downtown train with your estrogen. Like, keep an eye on yourself. Yeah. But we have no idea. Because it's become your norm doesn't mean it's normal and doesn't mean that that's like something that you should sort of sit in.

4:09I think as women, we do that, don't we? Because we used to sort of just getting up and carrying on and running the business and this is my life. I watch Law and Order Special Victims Unit and I don't move. With those ready-sorted crisps. And super-sized packs. And then wonder why I was putting on weight. This doesn't really correlate. What's wrong with me? And then I took a friend going, why don't you go and see the hormone doctor? And I went, oh, maybe I'm perimenopausal. You think? But I had years and years of it. Of just kind of just being that person. So, I mean, back to your point, when I would call out, in a way it's why I've got my career, but it's kind of become what I'm always fighting against, which is the gobby thing.

4:49That's interesting. Because when I was in my 40s, I was in the industry, I was qualified. I'd been in sort of senior corporate and above for years before I started the blog. And then I would have an opinion and give it and be confused as to why everyone else wasn't. Yeah. You know, most of them are girls because you've already said it. We don't want to jump on a bandwagon. Right. And sometimes it was absolutely valid and worth doing. Like the later, the ones that are most famous are like calling out Gwyneth Paltrow for saying she just puts SPF where the sun touches her face. And I was just like, do you mean the whole thing?

5:20Because it doesn't just touch here, Doris. And but I backed it up instead of just raging at her. I was very sort of eloquently. You're a moron. Yeah. You're a privileged moron. And here's 55 dermatologists who will back me up. So I did it that way. Right. Got a quote from all the derms and that kind of thing. I didn't call her a moron. I was more polite. But I think because I would blurt and nine times out of ten it was justified. And the odd time, you know, what I'm also good at is going, no, hands up. I was a knob. My bad. My bad. And I love that. It's when people can't say, oh, do you know what?

5:52I messed up. I think, oh, it's so freeing. And to apologize and things like that. So now I'm at the other end. And I'm just like, you know, having an opinion is what we all have. Why? And women in particular. Why is it women in particular who aren't encouraged to voice it? Why are we suppressing that? Why are we not vocal about what we truly think? Literally. You know, it's always, you know, it's always, oh, she's an angry middle-aged menopausal woman. I have black friends who are just like, well, if I get too close, they'll call me an angry black woman. And that gives me the rage. Then I'm like, how dare they?

6:26so I'm just all for women having their opinions and opening their mouths yes absolutely that and that has that always been the case yeah my mum was always you know she was a manager and she was always much more eloquent than me she would never swear she was a lady um and I but she would always just be this is wrong you know the ethics were strong this is wrong this isn't justified so the same thread you know it's always for the common good yes it's you know it's never sort of just for pure violence no no no no no you don't wake up and choose violence you're some days you do when you're menopausal to be fair but now that I am very post-menopausal that's the best time of my life that's so that's so nice the best time of my life I haven't had a period in five years so I've had five years of freedom and with each passing year you get more and more confident I mean at 55 if I mean I'm fitter than I was at 44 and 33 number one I am much more chilled but I'm also I know what I absolutely will and will not tolerate that is such a beautiful place to be such a beautiful place to be and a nan the dreams kids climbing all over you like home time this is what my mum says my mum is so different to my children than I remember like she was the most loving and she was you know she was a brilliant mum and she's literally i'm so lucky that we're best friends but she's so different to my children like i'm like oh my god you would never have let me get away with that i love all the i love all the reels and the memes about i want the woman that's the grandmother to my kids i want her to raise me again yeah yeah where was she where was she when she was raising me she was nowhere yeah no my grandchildren very rarely get they only get the raise voice if they're in danger yes oh yeah yeah yeah we all do that when the little one was like picking up rocks and throwing it a sort of glass window and i and he wouldn't put it down because he's two he's not saying he's feral yeah and i just screamed his name and he halted and stopped and dropped it and then just carried on but he got the tone of voice yes he got that oh shit that's my nana she doesn't talk to me like that so maybe i should stop what i'm doing yes this must this must mean this is serious those kind of early days growing up in that environment like you say your mum was very you know she was she was very vocal and that's which is back then that's incredible to see like you say women just didn't use their voice in the way that we all slowly are getting there now how did your kind of environment shape you and I suppose your curiosity around skin and people where did that kind of come into play the skin I don't know it must well mum and my mum and grandmother were both in the beauty industry but we never ever discussed me going into the beauty industry it was just a weird thing I got a Saturday Sunday job in Harvey Nichols on the Aveda counter and mum said oh that'd be nice but even then it wasn't a career you know but the main thing I got from my mum and my dad was the work ethic right you know the work ethic my dad missed two days of work and both were times he collapsed and had to call an ambulance you know there was no colds there was no I don't feel well there's no food poisoning they just went to you went to work yes you know it's that generation yes and my brother's the same I'm the same it's a borderline psychotic yeah and I'm I can level with you on that because my mom was the same it wasn't like a oh I'm pulling a sick I never didn't have that around me no so sometimes I mean I kind of wish I did a little bit because I don't know that like I will show up with a leg falling off to work I mean I've not been there yet but you know that is that is my approach to work in and I think it is it is instilled in you isn't it even like if you just sort of soak it up subconsciously it's there so let's talk about you kind of getting this Saturday job you're at the beauty counter at the time was that something that you thought okay this I need you know a bit of extra cash I need my own independence how did that look no we just needed cash we had two kids the boys were sort of like I want to say five and three something like that and we needed more money and I could do a weekend job my husband worked on like nine to five Monday sort of stereotypically back in the day and I got a weekend job and on day one I thought oh this is really good I'm good at this and on day two I was like I'm never going to work anywhere else again except in beauty wow and what was it about beauty that just interaction with the customers you know because it was shop floor obviously talking to the customers the feedback you would get the interaction with everyone else on the shop floor like I made friends during those first years on the Aveda counter that I'm still friends with now in the industry we all kind of grew up together so and at one point all of us became a Space NK manager we've all been through Space NK you know there's like a there's just like this following when I think of skincare Space NK to me is just like that is the ultimate dream they really should just sponsor me and I'll get a tattoo or something because everywhere I go and every pod I'm on, because I haven't mentioned them, and then everyone I'm talking to goes, I love Space NK.

11:22And I'm like, hashtag not an ad. Yeah, exactly. Hashtag I worked for them 30 years ago. But no, I mean, it's true. And of course, when you work there and you got, I was trained in like 200 brands. Oh, wow. You get training in everything. And how does it, when you say training, how does that actually look? Well, because I was a manager and I was obsessed with it, all the brands, this is back in the day, it's similar now. It's much more formulaic because they're so much bigger. Right. When I started, they only had like 15 stores. Yes. But the teams, the trainers would either visit the stores and you do training on the spot or they'd have training seminars or they'd have a training basement, if it were, like in one of their stores that they do still have.

12:02And you would just all sign up for the training. You make sure all your team had been. And if it was makeup, you'd send your makeup people. If it was skincare, you'd send your skincare people. But if you were a manager, you generally had to do all of it. So I did all of it. so there's brands now on the market that I think god I trained in that 27 years ago and what what is it like what was it that you loved so much about that was it kind of like having access to all of those different brands yeah or what was it more customer facing what was it all of it all of it the the the customer facing which is also the worst part you know anyone in retail or the service industry will tell you that that's the best part of the job and the worst part of the job yeah because you get you know you make friends of customers who then will come and see you and they trust you and then you get the arseholes you know um and the thieves which is always fun especially when you're from liverpool do you want to put that back or they'll be like oh i think he's nicking over there we'll go and stop him no we don't stop him and then all you know it's all don't never put yourself in danger i'm like please i'm a scouser all right this way it comes back to you with your i'm gonna do what's right here yeah you've not taken that from me that comes out my stock count and that'll affect my bonus thank you very much to put that back yeah i mean i do you know what's so funny that actually you probably couldn't do that now no no well you would be you would be you'd be encouraged not to put yourself in danger you still are encouraged not to put yourself in danger that means people will go in and just clear a shelf into a rubbish bag and walk out not on my watch no oh i love that i love that people like oh they might have a knife but they probably won't they probably won't you know it's a school kid i mean i opened the liverpool store for space nk and it was the first time i'd witnessed the rare beauty effect so we were there and i was doing my bit but there was a huge queue outside it wasn't for me it was because rare beauty was coming to liverpool so all these school kids come in and i'm looking at them going you do know you're in your school uniform trying to put that up your sleeve wow okay literally i'm like girls i i i say this to my children because my eldest is obsessed with skincare obsessed with these stores of these kind of space nks as far as i'm like do you understand like i worked to be able to afford something at space nk like the fact that kids can are seeing this as normal yeah or there's like this kind of entry price level that will be a lip balm that they're like yeah they want a little bit but that's the key i mean if you look at summer fridays like 80 of their business is lip balm yeah i mean or lip the lip products lip oils lip balms it's because that's exactly where they can that's that's the price straight in it that entry level so so you're so you're working in retail and i suppose one thing we all know about retail is they they use this line a lot don't they the detail is in the it is in retail and it's true there's so much that you learn being kind of on that shop floor what then happens so you're managing space in case then what's next I gave my notice in because I wanted to go and do more skincare I was training as a facialist and essentially I was running the Richmond store and I asked to be moved to Harvey Nichols because it was closer to where I was doing facial training at nights so I mean you know when I think now I think god there's a reason you do a lot when you're young I'd be exhausted we had two kids I was at work nine to five and then I'd go to school afterwards gosh it was just intense there's a lot of intensity yeah um and I I gave my notice in its base saying okay at five o 'clock and at like quarter to eight that night I met Sylvie Chantecaille on counter she came to the counter and she was staying at the Mandarin across the road from harvey nichols and she came in and what would happen and it still happens now i'm sure everywhere not just in beauty wherever the boss is you know they used to say make the joke that the queen thought that the world smelled like paint because 10 feet in front of her someone was doing this yes right you walk into everything's sanitized everything's immaculate so you complimented the smell when you came in here i'm like the candles lit for you girl they were lit for you it smells fresh and um sylvie chantecaille came in and because one i would have told her anyway but two I was given my notice in so I was like I've got nothing to lose and she said how is everything I said well you've got no stock you've got no testers you've got a waiting list what's going on and she went oh I haven't met you before I was thinking and I made the joke and said yeah they keep me hidden you know um and I said you could have such a massive business if you gave as a person like a rep in Harvey Nichols full-time right you'd make a killing would we make 10 ,000 a week now this is 30 years ago nearly and I said no you've got what to selling what eh but we had a laugh about it anyway she said come and meet me for a cup of tea after work so I went to the Sheraton Tower behind Harvey Nicks walked in and I was wearing this fuchsia pink sort of the Chantecaille packaging colour but it just happened to be the scarf I had on and Sylvie was very sort of into astrology and and she went oh darling that is the colour of my packaging you must work for me that was her opening line no so because I'd given my notice in I was going to go to Clarins because I wanted to do more skincare and I said to her oh I'll be honest I like makeup but I'm not obsessed with it skincare is my passion and she said I'm in the UK booking training sessions with Face and K because we launched our skincare in four months or something like that and I was like okay I'm in where do we go and so working for Sylvie took me off the shop floor and started my sort of the journey that led to like ultimately the blog the book everything but that is so like it's a testament to you and your character because not you put yourself out so we didn't just come up to you and say you see you I see something in you you kind of she asked me a simple question yeah but but it's it's kind of important and I think a lot of people are scared to put themselves in those situations and you know put their knowledge forward and afterwards they might go I wish she did this but yeah not be vocal about that and it goes back to you know the same kind of message saying exactly what you think about the situation gets you your dream job yeah and it was a dream job you know she flew me to new york i stayed with her at their house in the hamptons i was introduced to the family and i ended up running the uk and then i ran europe and i developed their treatments and so i was there for a good five six years the only reason i left was because there was nowhere for me to go upwards i wasn't going to move to the states right and i had a husband and four kids by the time i'd left of course sylvie she took me on and i had two kids in like two and a half years sorry mate i'm pregnant again um i mean we've got like four or five people off on maternity leave at our company now and you just think well that's if you want to hire 98 % women that's what's going to happen hiring with you and with you and it's hard when your key players go on mat leave you're like i'm so happy for your baby when you're coming back yes exactly i'm not gonna put pressure bringing the kid just checking coming for the meeting and bring the baby we'll share it would you like a touching in day um so right so let's talk about so you're At this point then you've got, like you say, four children.

18:55When is the blog born? When does the blog come to life? The blog's born because you could only get at the time like 70 odd characters on Twitter. Yes. And I was talking to people about skincare. And one of my friends said, just blog it. Because I was trying to tell people how to cleanse their face properly. Right. Because people were just talking about face wipes as if that was the be all and end all of skincare. Yes. Which was enraging. I forgot about that moment. I was just like, my God, come on people, wash your face. That's not taking your makeup off. No. you're right because there was a bit and I remember that was like probably going back to my girl band days now that was it like you took your makeup off with face wipes like how was that even a fit like now everybody knows like we should be double cleansing we should be really looking and they're terrible for the environment yes and they really just move it around your face yeah but it's crazy that was actually a thing I mean it was a thing and I was just like please wash your face properly and someone said blog it and I put it on the blog and that was it then the blog became somewhere for me to do what I'd been doing on the shop floor but do it to a wider audience reach more people and when at what point did you notice that that blog was really connecting like obviously you start something right yeah I mean pretty early on because I was one of the first in terms of I was there about a year after the sort of old timers I'm an old timer and then there's like the OGs right so after like Sam and Nick Chapman yeah they'd all been going for a while Jane from British beauty blogger.

20:19Um, but I was the only one mainly focusing on skincare. Right. And I really noticed that when I did focus on skincare, the posts would get more hits. Okay. Because there was no one else really talking about it and certainly not who was qualified. Yes. And it put hands on people's faces. Yeah. And so it grew from there really. And quite early on, I got traction. I became the blogger that brands would give their new release to so I could talk about it and then I would get invited to events and my very first press trip invitation was to was for um La Prairie in Monaco oh gorgeous yeah but they served us foie gras oh you know when you go and there was like a we were on the table with the Spanish and all the British girls were going and the Spanish were like I was like, I ate the whole lot of that.

21:08We were all like, oh my God. Yeah, it was a lesson. Yes. And then they put the meat down and we're all like, okay. And we're back. But there were the drinks. The British coped quite well. Yes. I'm not eating that. Drink through. Drink through the scariest like bush duck or trial. So then, so you notice, and I think when you are sort of, I suppose sometimes like you say, you're getting asked these questions about skincare. You need more characters because you've got a lot to say. But then you really realise the power of your influence when brands are like, we want you to talk about our product.

21:41We want you to come on this press trip. Was that kind of, that first trip, was that the moment that you thought, okay, this is really... No. People trust what I've got to say in terms of at that sort of brand level. Yeah, I mean, but bearing in mind, I had a quicker in because I was in the industry and I knew a lot of PRs. Right. So, you know, working with brands, you would meet a lot of PRs. because I knew a lot of PRs and I never wanted to just slag something off for the state of it, for the sake of it. I never did clickbait. I never did the truth about and then whatever the product was, you know, it's easy to do that.

22:15You know, it works for some people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I knew that if I wanted to be taken seriously, in the same way that I knew when I was on the shop floor, if I was going to do facials and I wanted to be taken seriously and be qualified and insured, I'd have to get the qualification. so I thought well in order to maintain that level of respect I didn't want to just be like this is shit you know yes yes I did occasionally throw something behind me and be like well that's in the bin like what was what was the oh what was the brand called that did all the masks and they did like Super Mario with glitter in it like glow mud that type of oh um you know glam glow oh in the bin yes and with them I was just like don't put this shit on your face wow okay fine you know But that was a rarity.

22:57Yeah, but genuine reviews. And I was in the middle of my perimenopause. But your genuine opinion. And like you say, you're not going to be mad at everything, but certain things aren't going to align with you. Yeah, just certain things. And so, yeah, I think it was when I would ask a PR for a response to something and get a reply immediately from someone high up, I'd be like, oh, they must think I'm important. Yes, yes. And that's when it kind of, every time I got a post that got a lot of traffic, I'd be here, but I'd keep the audience. and then I do a post that got another lot traffic and I keep the audience and then I realized I was getting like I had a big audience on the blog and so yeah that was the beginning of it all really and then the book so then obviously we know how these things work publishing deals people and I think now with like particularly with online talent like it's quite a I always know when someone's going to have a book because that blogs are words too right and you're kind of writing about something weekly daily however that looks a book seems like the most obvious answer right people will want to listen to what I've got to say how did the book come about I didn't want to do the book I pushed back against it for years really I was just like I've got the blog what's the point it's all there free online and then it took people going no no it's I have an aunt who doesn't go online I have a sister who doesn't wouldn't read your blog I want it for my coffee table so I can sit and peruse and I thought okay well that makes sense you know um and again we I wrote it and we released it during covid no book tour no fancy big dates or anything and it was number one on the sunday times bestseller week one and in the whole chart not just non-factual yeah that's it i was like it's a difference have that marion geese out of every i'm joking she's a goddess but you know i i was i was more surprised than anyone really yeah because i why do you think i would just i have no desire i had no desire and i still have no desire to be a prolific writer right it's not easy for me with my add sitting down to an empty page is a nightmare yeah like oh no but do you think lockdown really it sort of gave you that focus no I think meds gave me that focus because that's when I was diagnosed but ironically I'd written most of it I couldn't get a diagnosis for ADD from the GP they said well we'll put you on a waiting list it'll be two years and then they started asking me asking me these questions for the mental health team because obviously every borough is different have you ever thought about harming yourself or your children I was like no I'm going to harm you if you ask me anything like that again I'm out I was like you're right I'll go private so I went private I was like I don't want that on my medical record no stop forget it I haven't got ADD forget that is such a crazy approach they jump straight to red they jump straight to red zone not I'm having trouble focusing I think it might be this it affects me in this way I'm trying to write a book I think I've always been like this I've always been like this I thought school was the most tedious boring thing on earth unless I was interested in the subject so I said it's absolutely not life-threatening I did that thing where you're almost embarrassed to be at the GP.

26:02It's not life threatening. I probably shouldn't be here. And then they started asking me these questions about harming myself. I was like, no, this is exactly why I don't want to be here. Yeah. Goodbye. Yes. So I went private. Because like you say, in school, if you were writing about something that wasn't your favourite subject, you had no interest, right? Of course, writing about skin is your favourite subject. I love biology. But it's still, that's quite, it's a task, right? With ADD to sit and write a book. You just have to be, now I would absolutely call in help. So with my first book, my niece, Molly, was one of my first members of staff and I got her to download.

26:36I said, Molly, I need somewhere to start. Can you go to the blog? Yeah. The back end. I'll give you the back end. Can you download all my cheat sheets? Because I knew if I started with a skeleton. Yes. I could build out. And the cheat sheets to this day are still the most searched for thing on the blog. Wow. Because the cheat sheets are how to cleanse, how to use acid, how to use a retinoid, like everything. thing and I thought if I start with the cheat sheets and build out from that yeah then it'll have bones literally and she did that for me and it was like they wanted 60 ,000 words I think from memory and that was like 30 ,000 words because I had years I had 10 years of writing and then I self-edited and it went down to like 20 ,000 words I was like shit I'm going in the wrong direction what am I doing but that's once I've got it in front of me I can make it me it's like the skeleton and then elaborating on certain moments.

27:25Exactly, exactly. But having that structure. But an empty piece of paper, I would type, this is an empty piece of paper. Yeah. I just can't. And, you know, it always makes me realise now, obviously with hindsight, how ADD my kids were. Because when Ben, our eldest, was in school, we got a letter from the school and it had a copy of a report he'd written for English or something. And Jim and I were laughing and they thought it was really serious and he needed help with his mental health. And we thought he'd never looked healthier because it was a subject he hated. And he had written, because he was like 13, 14, and it was, and how did this part of the book made you feel?

28:01And he put, so bored, I want to die. And the school were like, we're very concerned about Benjamin. And I was like, mate, he's good. If he is telling you, I'm so bored, I want to die. And then kill me now was another answer. And I was just like, and Jim and I always have those parents that you think, we've never been the parents where it's you get your education you take it seriously you must go to uni we didn't go to uni my parents didn't go to uni we are working class and so we had four kids one of them went to uni lasted a week wow it was like that's not for me mom i was like why did i even bother my kids are always going to find their own path because they're me and jim and it's mother's instinct like you know that better than anyone i was like ben is i said i'm sorry sir i very much as much as I appreciate you looking after my son's mental health.

28:49I promise you he's fine. He's merely articulating how bored he is with the class. Yes, he really doesn't care about whatever it was. Yes. I'm so bored. I want to die. And Jim and I were like, are we terrible? It might just be the lesson. We're laughing at this. We're terrible parents. And we're like, no, we're not. It's boring. Maybe the teacher looked at the delivery of that lesson afterwards. But you might want to switch it up. You might want to engage them a little more. He's really quite bored. He's really quite bored. I know. But we're like it now as a family group. If someone just walks away, and even if it's me, if the kids are talking and we zone out, they go, wait, I'm sorry, yes, I am here.

29:24I'm listening. I didn't zone out at all. I'm not bored. Yeah. I'm not bored. I promise I'm in the room. But no one takes it personally because we're all like it. Yes. But I kind of, and I love the honesty with it too. What else is there to be? Especially with your kids, because if anyone's going to call you out and your bullshit, it's your kids. Oh, listen, no one's going to humble you like your own children. Oh, my God. The things my kids say to me, I'm like, do you know that if you said that to me in the street, I'd probably get arrested for throat punching you? And they're like, you know what?

29:51It's just it. Especially teenage girls. Oh, don't tell me that. My eldest is almost 12. No, I'll just pray for you. Really? I'm already noticing. She might be absolutely fine. Don't listen to me. No, I'm already noticing the, she's a little more like it with Marv. I feel like he gives her the ick a little bit in certain moments. And I feel like he knows that he does. And it upsets him. I can really see it. Even now. Jim's 61, Ava's 23. She can bring that man to his knees. I can see. Effortless. But then also if I tell her something, she's like, okay. And I know as soon as she's turned around, I would love to have a mirror there to see the eye roll and probably what she's called me.

30:34I can just feel there's that energy. Well, there will come a point where she will say it to your face. Oh, gosh. The eye roll will happen in front of you. Oh, no. See, that I'm not prepared for. I wasn't prepared for it either Ratchet Rush will start to come out No one wants the Romford to come out of me It's still in there somewhere Oh it comes out with your teenage girls Because I found in my experience The boys have no interest in wiling their mum My boys are chill They're smart My daughter took it as a sport And she was an Olympic medal She's Usain Bolt level Like she I don't think I've told this story before I'm going to because she won't care She's 23 now and we are She is my woman right by the way she's gorgeous she's so gorgeous and she's smart and she's savvy she's like me on speed but at 23 terrifying love it she sends me videos of her what's it when you paragliding off a cliff in brazil going all right mum and i'm like are you on solid earth yeah yeah this was yesterday i'm like thank god and then and then she nothing's ever been more rave than her sending a family the family group videos they all come pinging through and she's in south africa she'll just go i'm going to cape town i don't need a visa i'm on board oh my gosh okay oh my gosh send us a picture of her climbing tabletop thingy bobby right and i went oh thank god at least she's wearing like a harness no it was bloody dior dior saddlebag vintage she's carrying a dior saddlebag vintage she's like oh it wasn't a brand new moment i can't afford that but across and i went oh she's wearing a harness and And Jim was like, okay, she's strapped in.

32:07I went, actually, that looks like a Dior saddlebag. For Christ's sake. Climbing this, like, just holding on to rails that are drilled into the stone. Behind her is death. Oh, my gosh. And I'm just like, I mean, fearless is great. But there comes a point where you're like, please show it to me when you're landed. And preempt it with a picture of you sitting at the airport like, I'm here, I'm alive. Yeah, just after the fact. But she is the only one of my children. I've used the C word on people twice in my life, right? One of them was Jim. Understandable. Husband and wife have been together nearly 40 years.

32:39Right? And he's used it on me once. You know, you have those big. And then done, forgotten. Ava, I used the C word on her. Oh, she pushed you. Oh, there's pushing. And then they're standing in front of you. And I realised afterwards that when she was 15, I was in the midst of perimenopause. Right, got you. I was miserable as shit. Oh, so we're like mid, ready, sort of crisp energy. So she, I'm like ready. and she's ready and she was saying something like i'll just tell dad something like that oh that'll do it and as as i went to say you know when you kind of go i sort of semi-stepped to her like do you know what yeah because i'm a mixture of when i'm angry it's a mixture of scouse and west london it couldn't be worse right so i go do you know what yeah and as i did it she stepped to me she fully stepped to me okay oh ava's ava's brave she's definitely fearless as she went to me i just happened to be going and i just grabbed her neck and i had around the neck and i went ava don't fucking and she went oh i'm telling dad you strangled me i went give me enough fucking time and i will so she goes dad and i went oh my god and i could feel my jaw and i went and i screamed you're such an effing beep beep right yeah and i screamed it from my soul oh right jim who's i mean my lord could we just pray for jim at this point no well jim has never never interfered yeah never interfered he poor man so i'm here ava's there he stuck his head around the kitchen door and he went everything all right anyone want a cup of tea and i went I just went and this is how this is how I end the story because it gives you the perfect Ava now if my mother didn't know that word existed yeah my mother my mother's like Joan Collins wouldn't have known that word existed my mother would have fainted Ava went you're so rude matched matched every and I just went get out so anyway five minutes later she's leaving the house right because one thing we're really good at is we don't do grudges.

34:54Yeah, see, that's good. So it's an explosion and then, you know, and this was only in those, we don't even do that now. I love you, have a great day, honey. Oh, so parent trap, Lindsay Lohan, Jamie Lee Curtis. Yeah, favourite. Make good choices, honey. Right? So she's going out there, she goes, bye, dad, love you. And then it goes silent and he goes, love you, boo. And I'm like, you brown-nosing snake. Right? So I went, bye, boo. It's her nickname. Bye, boo, love you. She went, ugh. And I went, make good choices, honey. and she's like bye mum love you and then slam the door done is it finished done there you go what's for dinner but that girl matched my energy you're so rude they always say that she didn't crumble she didn't cry she didn't go I can't believe you called me that she knew she was yeah yeah yeah yeah she owned it she owned it she went yeah I am and I'm your daughter and I'm sassy but listen they say that they come back to get you don't they I wouldn't have her any other way the sass that you kind of put out there as a kid they do say they come back to you in the form of your own child Because to my mum, Ava, my kids were angels.

35:50Yeah. It was only me and Jim that got the grief. They are, everyone would meet them, like the guys in the corner shop, they'd walk to school, Mr. Patel. Perfect. Your children are so lovely, they're so polite. And we'd be like, what are you doing with me? You know, but she, I wouldn't have her any other way because that girl knows her value. Oh, and that is all, like, that is what you hope when raising daughters. Like, I, if I could like, you know, if I could do anything for them that's up there for me is that they know their work and they know their value. She once said to a boy at the time she's 23 so it couldn't only have been within the last five years you know she once said to him and I thought oh my god where did she even get this?

36:32She went what about this makes you think I'd settle? Love it I love her I was just like I just yes obsessed yeah but that's you that's what you've like that's exact that's how you've raised her it wasn't though when we first met I was like oh my god I can't believe he fancies me I was 19 Jim was 25 he was in a band he had long curly hair like Michael Hutchinson in excess I was obsessed with him and he wasn't nearly as obsessed as he should have been with me and my mum spotted that she was like oh yeah he needs to be more obsessed with you yes and then it switched it slowly switched you know and then I'd be like whatever fat man and he'd be like devastated yes you almost like played the system a little bit like you know and we're gonna we're gonna dial this up yeah this new yeah and then you have well I had kids and that turns you into this ferocious you know It does.

37:16The lioness comes out. And then you have grandkids and you're a beast. But the nice beast. They get the nice bit. A nice beast. Let's go back now to... That's me rabbiting for an hour about it. No, no, it's a good story. No, I love it. I want it. I want it on. But I want to talk about, because we have our babies in life, and then the business baby comes to life. And it's almost, for me, I had, well, two children before I launched my little Coco. and I am some days I think I'm like I envy people that their business is their first baby and they put everything into that but actually I really see the value in raising kids and having that because weirdly it teaches you so much so much and I think it's a really funny way and I think sometimes I wish for time and for sole focus that I had my business baby first um I don't don't though I think you're right I think having the kids I had the four kids before I started my own business and I had patience of a saint exactly that I had balance because nothing was as big a drama as your kid not being well yes you know you knew the juggle everything so I think the skill set I took from being a mum of four and working corporate into launching my own brand is why the brand was successful because it gives you the best foundation I don't I very rarely get aggy to the point of like I think Louise my niece um is my PA she was my first employee I've hired two members of the family there's like 55 employees but I only have two no but I love it sounds like I just like you know like I'm Kanye I just hire people that like you know my cousins but she um she was my first hire and she's seen me properly lose it twice and both times were absolutely justified back in the day and she would just come and put a cup of tea in front of me and quietly she knows that and but also that's where it's really powerful to have family around too she gets it she understands you so let's talk about you launched skin rocks in 2022 yeah built it independently yeah i am so always so intrigued in the idea of like something being like a little seed of imagination to then becoming the beauty empire that it is what was the moment that you knew that it was the right time for you to create your own brand um a couple of things i'd made a lot of businesses a shitload of money right and i thought what about my own kids what about them what about the pension pot for my kids yeah you know and there comes a point where you're like it's a bit like with a book it's like well what's the legacy the legacy was she was a really good consultant you can talk about it all you want but are you going to get off the pot are you going to have a wee you know so it just became like there wasn't really any other option than to do it because the blog had become so big that working with brands was even more as a consultant was even more difficult because they would expect that because I was working with them on the blog front that on the consulting front that I would automatically give them all this free promo online yes and glowing reviews yeah yeah and couldn't be negative about anything which I didn't really do anything because I always tended to work for brands I really liked but it just became it became inevitable it was like oh I've got to do it myself you know you have one too many things with brands where you're like oh that's just bad and I told you that was going to happen you didn't listen so maybe I am on the onto the right thing here I'm going to do it myself and then what was the first step that you took because obviously you've got all this experience you've got the engaged following you're a Sunday Times number one best seller in all books thank Thank you very much.

40:55Twice. Twice. You are. You know, the problems that the consumers are having, you know what they want, you know that they take your advice. So, you know, you're on something here. But equally, starting your own business. It's hard to know everything at the start, it really, really is. What was the first step that you took? um probably talking to al about it so al is our managing director okay my business partner so she's a shareholder in skin rocks and she's been with me from year dot she's the person who got the name skin rock she texted me one day was like this would work with xyz and i was like oh no you're actually right that would work because we couldn't get the name i didn't want it to be caroline hirons yes first of all no one can pronounce my surname i'm always hirons hi ron's like this i mean amen on this morning they had to do it phonetically for him on the screen he couldn't get his head around Hirons.

41:49Hirons, I'm like, it's all right, Emon. And then I purposely wound him up because Manu had lost that weekend and I just really stuck it in. Oh yeah, that'll do it with Amy. And I'm looking at the teleprompt and they had to spell it H-I-G-H-R-U-N-S, Hirons. I'm like, oh, well done. Okay, round. Jesus, all right, broadcaster. So I didn't want it, it's too many syllables, it's too many, it doesn't sit. And I always, it's different now, but back in the day people I'd met who had their name on a box were generally assholes wow and I was like yes I don't want my ego to come into it that's not it's not me and also if you're thinking with a business head down the line if you want to sell you can't sell your name or you lose it like joe malone bobby brown so I learned from the old school sort of lauder acquisitions don't use your name it becomes a real tricky territory yeah so you want to build something that stands on its own so you your shareholder that was the first well al and i were consulting together so i brought al into the consultations together i was just like look i i'm doing this i'm getting more clients than i can handle she had done matt leave and i said leave that job come and do this with me so we did it together we were consulting together we launched the kits via ch so i have two businesses i have ch which is me which is a bit like you you know broadcasting books sponsored deals and the kits yeah and so the kits ostensibly over in ch side funded skin rocks got you and once we started skin rocks then al became you know managing director over here and that's when we started hiring people for skin rocks starting out because obviously you've got like you say you've got another side of the business and you know i i have the same yeah yeah there's different facets and then that can yeah like my little coco isn't going to go into the same bank account that this morning does it's not going to go into that no um but like you say that would bring alive something else because you can yeah when it's yours that's how you can figure it out so skin rocks was and is to this point entirely self-funded yeah i started funding skin rocks in 2020 i think we bought the name i think we launched in 2022 and we got investment two weeks ago.

43:59Wow. Self-funded for like five years almost. Right. I want to ask so many questions about this because when... We might need drink. We might need... Do you know what we do? We've got rosé in the fridge. I'll crack you a bottle. When it comes to self-funding, right, there's always that kind of, do I do it? Do I give away a piece? Do I do that early on? Do I wait for that moment? And because there's always so many, and I've said this a lot, there are so many opportunities that will land on your lap when you've built a successful brand, when you've got that engaged customer, when you've got that following.

44:34So many opportunities. But to do that, the cash flow always has to be there. Because, of course, when you're placing an order, you need that cash flow to do so. But then there's loads of things that are quite hard to meet when you're doing it out of one pot. And, of course, you're selling the product. and as quick as you're selling it you need to place that other order but you need that money to top up yeah everything not just though is the is the main issue is is is always the main issue for everyone what do you think starting and we'll get on to investment afterwards starting those first kind of so how many years is that sorry 2020 to five years well it's two years since we launched two and a half years since we launched the product but we were five years and sort of development and everything else what what are some of the biggest challenges you think you faced being self-funded purely the cash flow really and it wasn't really a challenge until we got to the point where i said okay this is going to get this is going to sort of tie our hands now we should probably look at investment but for the first few years we were fine we were flying you know because lockdown happened the kits were flying right so the ch side of the business was flying and was cash heavy and was able to fund skin rocks so we kind of built the business i mean when we were talking to investors a lot of them were completely baffled that we were at the stage we were at because we're kind of we're making good money early on but we've got a big team most of them were like your team is massive and i'm like well we've built something we're ready to go what we're talking in terms of big team like 50 plus wow yeah that's huge but we were like yeah but the vision is we get the money and we're ready to go we don't need to do a glossier and get a load of money and then spend six months hiring because people that you need to hire have a three-month notice period and all of this, we're ready.

46:18We're ready to attack. That's such an interesting approach. And was that conscious? No. We were just like, do we need this? Oh, we'll just take – we'll put another job roll out, you know. So it's one of those where the bonus side of having ADD is being a risk taker. The negative is not always looking at the risks. Right. And was there a risk that, like you say, that you well you can't always foresee but was there one that really stood out to you that you didn't look at that cost you slightly the app was expensive right the app was expensive but the way we're going to pivot the app i think will be pivotal no pun intended um and will really be a game changer but the app was far more expensive a far more expensive piece of tech that i didn't realize you know i didn't realize that when we signed up to do it yeah because it's a it's a great app it's not just sort of we haven't just thrown something together which is like a website in an app yeah and and you almost can't it's almost like one of those things that of course we're so the way that we consume apps if something isn't like a certain standard yeah it's you can see that there's kind of no escaping that is there and it's also it was also expensive because I didn't want to flood it with ads I could have put every paid job I did I could have just got it all to the app but I didn't want it to do that so building that to a certain point was probably the most expense that if I'd done a long-term P &L on it, I would have gone, oh, I don't know if we should do this.

47:43But now that it's here, I'm grateful and it will be brilliant with a few tweaks, but apps are expensive. Of course, and I had Michelle Kennedy on the podcast who founded Peanut and she was actually saying that they're so... Her advice actually to listeners was, if you're going to think of starting an app or be in that tech space, there are so many ways of testing out the app. Yeah. Not in an app before you get there to really commit to it. So like create a WhatsApp group so if people engage with it, you know, there's lots of ways to test it not in an app setting before you plough all your money there because it's such a kind of, it strips you of cash, doesn't it?

48:27It really, really does. What I want to take you back to the first week of launch. How did it look? Was that a scary moment for you? Were you really excited? it how how was that i was excited because like i say it felt inevitable and we'd done lots of kit launches and had sellouts and things but the difference the spin we had to do as a business was we were launching something that wasn't going to sell out it was just going to be kind of a stock item you know i didn't want to do the the drop ship model for my own business that's great for the kits yes you have a limited edition of thousands they sell out it you know you generate a wait list for the next one bob's your uncle and that's the formula yes but for a long for longevity of a brand you can't have constant sellouts because people will go elsewhere you know so um it was exciting it was you know it just felt it felt uncomfortable and inevitable and what were you what do you think you were most excited about because it's it's such a you know toiletry skincare in that space of course it's a saturated market but there's always that thing that we the problem that we want to fix as founders and that then becomes a reason what how did that look for you um I think because I knew the formula so well because I consulted for so many different brands I learned a lot sort of starting with Shantikai again because they were in Space NK I had a long-term relationship with Space NK when I was consulting you know um I knew I wanted to be in Space NK in Liberty and that's still where we are to this day so those deals were done before we launched right you know I was like okay we're going to do this I want to be in all doors here's the margin you know and they were fantastic because they knew with me they had someone who's a known entity and knew exactly how they worked yeah you know and what would be expected and so it was it was I would say it was easy but only because I'd done the legwork for the previous 25 years yes you know it was like okay we've done overnight success no we've done a and b and now we do see you know when we launched it was really nice actually because um i think i think it was business or fashion called me something like arguably the most important woman in british beauty there's a couple of years ago thank you very much but millie kendall from the british beauty council gave a quote that said caroline is the latest in a long line of not overnight successes from the uk and then she sort of mentioned sam mcknight charlotte tilbury lisa eldridge you know we've been doing our craft for years and i was like you couldn't you can mention me in the name and the sort of same sentence as those three I'll take that yes but um and that's what it felt like it felt like well we did a and b and now we're going to do c yes exactly it wasn't hard it's a progression it wasn't hard it was what I knew yes and and how about in terms of the kind of because you like what you do is like you say consult well and you know skin and like treatment led and customer are facing how about the actual like bones of the business and the like logistics and everything else in between how involved were you in that at the start and how everything and how does it look all of it with me and Al still do everything wow so you know we have obviously we have a senior leadership team and I don't interview everyone I'll only see people if they're going to report directly to me or Al right um but I mean we do we are the business we're still there you know we do a 10 15 stand up every day with the team so everyone knows where we're at you know what we're doing for the day and all of it you know we do everything and you just start you just have to start somewhere you just start and then when you need someone for a job you hire someone for that job and luckily I knew a lot of people in the industry and I did a lot of poaching you know I mean Greg who's our sales and relationship manager works predominantly across space in Cain Liberty I just texted him and said right I'm ready to give you notice then and he was like okay lady that's i mean see but which when you know greg you would know okay lady you know but when you like it's a credit to you and the relationships you've formed like you say none of this happens by an accident no it's years and years of building relationships building and and you know sort of really and treating people well yes there we go there we go when so let's talk about now so you've I mean we all know skin rocks to be the success it is what made you look at finding investment now money and and and money because of where you want to yeah money because if you want to expand you we could have if we had made cuts or if we had if we'd made cuts or if I'd done more kits or sold the app or things like that we probably could have kept going but we wouldn't have done the brand justice it came to the point where you want to spend like we didn't spend we hardly spent any money last year on out of home marketing right hardly any money with people like space and k liberty because they go if it's great opportunity for windows blah blah and i've got the cash sorry give it to tatcher someone else you know so now it felt like in order to present the brand at the stature and keep it at the level it was at we needed more investment so that i could take my eye off of making money to fund the brand yes you know and is that quite a when you're so when you've done everything yourself and it's of course it's your baby how did how does that investment feel to you because obviously you want it to scale it yeah I think everybody gets that point I'm I'm arriving there now myself where I'm like I feel like I've successfully taken my little cocoa where I think I can and with what I know.

53:54And now I feel like we're definitely in that position where we're ready for, you know, an army of people to come and help with that. How does that change your involvement? How does that look to you? It just means that I can focus on being me, product development, you know, launching pro. So we're going into clinics and, you know, salons. So that's massive. that'll become my main focus it means I can focus on that instead of um watching both bank accounts to the nth detail making sure there's enough here for this and taking it from here and putting it there because that just got very tiresome and boring and it's not the most productive use of your time and your skill set I cannot tell you we've had 20 months around the investment raise and it's been 20 months of me and Al both trying to keep our eyes on too many balls it's so draining and stressful and and when you're in that space it's hard to then be creative almost impossible yeah so our NPD won't be as active probably next year as it could be because I didn't want to keep making product not knowing if I'm going to be able to fund getting it out there because I'm not at the point where you know usually if you're doing an MOQ in beauty and you're a smaller brand you would do an MOQ of like 2000 yeah that's not going to service an order no that's not going to service a retail order so we're talking big quantities and unless you can do that why would you go too far down the formula road you know so we'll catch up it'll be fine but it just became I'm looking forward to having investment from people who've done it before with different brands who bring a different level of expertise because I am not one I'm not ego driven I am not someone who's in the room like what I have to say is the only voice that matters I want other people to tell me you know we hire people who are better things than ourselves that's the whole point and if you don't do that don't go into business because you're going to be surrounded by gen z people who say yes to everything and everyone in our business says no to me on a daily basis that is so important we make jokes about it you know i'll be like what about sunset and they'll go that's a shit idea and i'm like okay yeah but it's so it's it's humbling yeah but it's and ultimately obviously if i want it if i go well we're going to do the shit idea we will do it yes you know but but your team are everything and you want the support and the kind of energy of your team behind it.

56:13We spend most of our time going, what do you think we should do? Two X, Y, Z. But because we've hired you for your expertise, if I knew everything, I'd be a one-man band. Yes. Yeah, you're so right. And I think people who think they know everything are assholes. Yeah, fair. No, it's very... Generally, if you've got a high staff turnover, right? My theory is if you've got a high staff turnover and if you think about your day and you're being honest, people are afraid to talk to you or say no to you, you are the arsehole yes yeah you're right there's your clickbait oh there you go thank you that's gonna make the trailer you're welcome thank you very much you know if you don't have if you are not surrounded by people who are comfortable going I don't think that's a good idea yeah get out ready to disagree you are your own barrier but I think that in life right I think that with friends I think you know you go shopping with a girlfriend and you're trying on a dress and someone's like oh it looks lovely and I'm like well no it doesn't it looks shit on me it's lovely on the model but it's not you need that in life I think to continue to grow and to be the best version of yourself exactly because one thing you've done considering you're only taking on funding at this point is you've scaled really quite rapidly yeah but what i think you've done so so well is your community and your customer still feels like they're chatting to the caroline that they've always known and loved they are funny me you're my social no but it's but i think it's really important because i think as brands get bigger it's easy for a founder to feel like they're kind of a little bit more distance because as we touched on before there's so much more work and there's a lot of other different layers how do you and i suppose social media is a great tool for this but how do you stay connected to your audience whilst leading a fast-growing brand instagram all day every day if if phone screens had a worn out bit like they used to want a remote control the button would be the button like Instagram WhatsApp and email logo on it yeah would just be wiped out you know but Instagram DM Instagram lives and it's interesting because a lot of the following I've got now came from going live at five o 'clock every night during lockdown that's what really grew my following it just went from popular to ridiculous I mean at one point with one of our kits we went on sale and people crashed the website we weren't expecting it and I had 10 ,000 people on Alive on Instagram.

58:29This is like five years ago. And to this day, the only people I've seen with higher people on Alive is Oprah and Adele. I'm like, woohoo, we did that. We'll take that, girl. We'll absolutely take that. But that was the heyday of the kits and they would sell out in two hours and everyone wanted skincare because we were all on Zoom looking at our faces going, God, put the filter on. And because they really convert, those watches will really convert into sales for you. Yeah, so, you know, it's Instagram for me is pivotal. And I think the reason I kind of stayed where I am with the following is because I didn't divert to TikTok.

59:03It's Ava's audience. Ava's massive on TikTok. Do you know what? I love that you're saying this because I think there feels like a I'm with you where TikTok isn't for me. And I've tried it and I'll basically just put this because everybody says I need to have one. I'll put the same video that I've probably shared as a real. Yeah, but I'll put that on TikTok. it just doesn't I don't know what I'm doing on it I'm not comfortable and I leave it to the pros if I'm not great at it I'm not doing it yeah and Instagram I can do you know I was great on Twitter until I came off it because of Elon Musk being a complete turd close that account yes so but Instagram is my day-to-day contact with people and you're still as engaged as you were which I think is so so brilliant to be able to keep that and still be able to put your time there whilst everything's yeah I mean I'll be honest the last 20 months or so it has dwindled as in my time has been totally spent elsewhere in terms of the investment what it meant for the business trying to make sure that CH was making enough to fund Skin Rocks like it's it was robbing Peter to pay Paul yeah like we've been up shit creek and been like oh there's four thousand pound in the bank well thank god we've got payroll done what's next yeah you know and that's just not comfortable and that doesn't bring you joy no that does not spark joy Marie Kondo I want to be sparking joy thank you I want to spark joy by making more product going into pro and having people at the table who have done it before whose opinions I will value yeah because like I said I'm not led by ego I'm not gonna I will sit and listen and I don't get me wrong I will go I mean during the investment process I was asked so many fucking numb nuts questions because I don't have a penis that I was ready to kill I was ready to pack it all in I was like fuck this oh my god I was like fuck it I'll do 10 kits a year and we'll just make it work but you're like that's that's not sustainable be reasonable you know but I've had questions like um I said to someone once would you ask me that if I had a penis love this at the me at the at the table in my I'm like you're in a building that's got my name on the door you're in my office with my people and you're talking to me like I'm a child honestly the amount of times that Al and I because you know if you know someone really well yes like at this point I think Al and I know more about us almost as much as our husbands do so I'll just and I we could never sit where we could see each other's eyes it'd have to be next to each other because I would just I'd be like that and go and so we just knew and she knew if I said a certain thing that she would just go you're all gonna die and if she went because Al has the thing she goes oh and she kind of sits up and goes um and I would go oh you're gonna die one of us would always take it but we'd both come out of meetings and go fucking arseholes God it's so hard and it is not a surprise to me that less than 2 % of funding goes to women because I think most women go fuck you excuse my French but how dare you and they probably just think it's not worth it I'll go back to doing what I was doing I'll stay small well I want to touch upon this because I love this so much I mean the name says it all right Skin Rocks is 90 % female I think it's more than that.

1:02:14We're going to take that. We've got, senior leadership team's got one man, Pete, FD. But again, Pete was someone I texted. I've known him for years. He used to work at Space NK. That's how long I've known him. I texted him. I was like, Pete, we need an FD. Can you do like part-time? And he was like, yeah, I'm coming. And then he sent us his picture. So we had, you know, you have to put the, like the PDF together to give to people who want the investment. Yes. Yes. And we're all in color and girls and we're all like, yeah. And Pete's in black and white. So it's like woman, woman woman woman woman woman black and white man woman woman woman and it's it's actually i went if that is not the epitome if that is not the epitome of our building that was my proudest moment and we didn't we just said pete can you send a headshot he sends us black and white one and we're all like full glam like yeah but it was really interesting because i saw a i can't remember it was on i saw it would have been some kind of like a scott galloway pod or something but they were talking about the difference between male and female entrepreneurs men build so you think musk bezos bill gates they build in a triangle they're at the top everyone else is underneath women build in a rectangle and we did not know that we had done that until i heard that and i went oh you've got to listen to this and look at our presentation the presentation is me al and jemma our cco three of us at the top you're so right and you know there are just so many like i mean there are so many points of difference but i also think you know it goes back to you were saying before that actually the way women speak about ourselves too around business i was i was chatting to em agreed about this and we were saying i'm obsessed with her by the way amazing i'm obsessed with her she's annoyingly brilliant and i'm obsessed with her fucking she's the best and the worst thing she probably did was like you know show sign of being a friend of mine because now we whatsapp and i'm just like every time like oh my god she just like she's just do that when i message you too yeah i do she's got oh my god carolina emma who do i reply to first listen you're both here you're both here but do you know what she said to me and we would with this was actually i don't think this conversation was on the podcast she said this at dinner and she said the way that women talk and the way that we play is so different to the way that men do in terms of with something come up about the baby brown and she was like you know to in my home and was like, she's number one in boots.

1:04:31Don't listen to her. She's fucking out selling Johnson. So she's talking on my behalf. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because someone that, she does these incredible dinners. They're called a seat at the table. And they're like different women from different places. And, you know, everybody gets up at some point and says what they do. And predominantly women of colour, which is so fucking important. It's amazing. And I was talking about my business and she was like, right, listen, if you was a guy, you'd say, I'm the number one selling baby brand in boots I've got a baby toiletry company we do X we do Y we've been out five years this is what we've achieved but you're like oh I've got this little thing and it's like a baby toiletry company and it's so interesting that with the same fact it would be the same fact of a story we play small we play small and men make it sound like we land on the moon and that's why we needed investment because I didn't want to play small and I know watching other brands knowing who's number one in space nk for example yes is always on my head knowing who's number one in liberty i'm always like right and you can always like in liberty it's always going to be always going to be either jones road trini or diptyque okay right diptyque is it's their flagship it's huge it's tourism central trini and jones road have hundreds of skews yeah and it's their flagship yes right we've got like 19 20 skews we're never going to be at that level yes But if we're on the same level as a bar drawer or a sizzly, happy days for me.

1:05:54I'm done, right? Okay. So when we launched the eye cream, everyone had just launched their eye cream too. And we were number one in Space NK, number one eye cream. And I was just like, get you. And I said, that's stand up. I was like, guys, we're number one. Because what's great is when the retailers get behind you, they're like, you're number one, you're beating so and so and so and so. And I'm like, because. It's funny what it does to you. And I'm like, I didn't realize I was competitive. And of course, things do change. Yeah, of course. It's not constantly there. It's not linear. No. But take the moment and run with it.

1:06:22Absolutely. Yes, we will. Do you think having, you know, like you say, over 90 % being over 90 % female led, was that team structure and that set up, was that an intentional decision from day one or was that simply you hiring the best people? Hiring the best people, but women are more attracted to work for me. Men are threatened. With the first guy, the first person we ever had to let go from the business was a bloke for insubordination because he could not handle being told what to do by a woman. And we were like, fuck off. No way. Fuck off. You're in the wrong building, mate. And in what way?

1:07:00Oh, back chat, talking over them in meetings, and you're just like, oh, out, goodbye. And to, like, your team, not just you? No, to their immediate managers and just across the board and then making the old joke about a woman, and you're like, goodbye. Oh, okay, yeah, that's right. So I think you have to be a certain type of comfortable man to work in our business. and a lot of men we do have a gay I'm in the beauty industry it's gays lesbians and women yeah I'm with you this is there's a gay silent laughing over there do you know what I think it's kind of it goes back to ego it goes back to ego and leaving it at the door doesn't it and some people just can't do that and I think if you're creating that team and that environment that we all leave ours at the door and we're in and yes we all have our roles but we all pick up a little bit of everything because we play as a team and the team is everything.

1:07:52Yeah. I think it instantly Oh, you're nothing without the team. You know, we we take the piss out of the team. They take the living piss out of me and Al. I mean, to the point where you're like, you're actually being rude now. Where's HR? This is just rude. I frequently go, can I have HR? Bloody hell. But you have to because but it's all done with a healthy respect. You know, we won't I can take a lot of shit for me. I've been online a long time. Like you. It's water off a duck's back. You know, not to your level. I don't mean that. I mean, the shit you must have had over the years, just by simply the fact that you didn't marry some boring bloke that no one knew.

1:08:25Your family isn't, you know, like you and I are famous, right? I'm not. I'm famous in my industry. Very, very different. Got you. Very different. You're a different level, right? So I wasn't comparing in that way. But you have to have that, you have to surround yourself with people who don't mind saying, you're being a dick. Yes. Because I can take a lot of shit, but if someone comes to my team, that's when I lose my shit. Yeah. That's when I really am like, don't you dare speak to my team like that. And it goes back to that, like, that motherly instinct. And we spoke about, you know, having children before, but the protect, the way that I protect my gang is how I would protect my kids.

1:09:08And not like, you know, not kind of. No, not in a motherly way. in a patronising way but in that like the lioness mode that you go into and that sort of that passion that you feel because I you know we back our people and to celebrate sort of the investment announcement that we made yesterday we've given everyone Friday off because the weather changes Saturday and we don't want them all sort of and I'm not going to be funny if you're working from home on a Friday and it's 29 degrees we know what the truth is I'd rather just say take the fucking day off guys don't even pretend you're at your desk I know you're in the park having a beer so you should be well their faces is when we announced in stand-up we were like you know as a thank you and it was our idea she she's one who goes like you know we should give him friday off and i'm the one who goes why but then i'll say it'll be me that goes let's do something let's get cake and she'll go oh so but the balance is there the ultimate goal is you want a happy team right it's like having a happy you know i remember seal saying about his you know heidi clune when they're together clearly the advice he didn't take her but it was like happy wife happy life happy team happy me and al right and And so we said, we'd like to give you Friday off.

1:10:11I mean, five of them, not like they're going to cry. I bet. And then immediately, of course, there's like three hands up going, I already had Friday off, can I have the day back? Can I take Thursday too? Don't be happy. Yes, exactly. Just deal with that later. But, you know, having a great team is everything. And that is the hardest thing we had to get across to potential investors. Our team are everything. And you just have to, if you want to come on board, you can come on board. But I'm telling you now, you're not going to come on board and persuade us to let 15 people go just to make a budget.

1:10:38That's not going to happen. So you're either in or you're not. I love that. And then we go home and go, we've got no money. And you go, oh, my God, what if they say no? We've got no money and the team need their baby bells on a Monday morning. What does your day-to-day role look like now? Will that change at all with the investment? Well, hopefully I'll have more time to do the stuff that they need me to do, like filming. I'm not going to look at Liv because she's going to look at me and go, we haven't done any this week. Yes, yes, yeah. So like filming and doing more, going back to doing Instagram lives, because that's what most people want me to do.

1:11:10And it got to the point where it felt like, oh, I have to do an Instagram live because the eye cream's just launched. Or I have to do an Instagram live because we've got a kit coming up. A bit more transactional. Yeah, it got too transactional and I was too exhausted. And then in the middle of all this process, my mum passed away like two years ago, end of March. And that took me out of the business for a month, but it took my head out of the business for about a year. and so I was there grief will do that I was there but I was just sort of there in a hallucinatory way it was like going through the motions so I feel like the investment will get me back to being me which is what the brand was built on and talking about ingredients and talking about skincare and still talking about other products I have the confidence to talk about other products you know there are people who launch a brand and they never mention another product again and I'm like that is so transparent how do you not see that You know, I'm the first to go.

1:12:02The only thing I won't do is like over elaborate on how something good, if it's a direct competition for us and I know that they see me as a competitor. Yeah. But if someone wants, if someone wants a brilliant eye cream and they can't afford mine and they asked me for something in super drug, I'll do something super drug happily. I did a super drug campaign at the beginning of this year. I've done this morning. I've written books. I mean, I've done everything. I've done pods. being the face of super drug for like two three weeks is a different ball game altogether really because it's every high street every single high street has a super drug from the tiny ones the big ones wherever you were my big boat was in the window and it was i had people i hadn't family members in australia like people i hadn't spoken to in ages but only on facebook going jesus christ this is you and you just forget and it goes back to like you forget and we you know they say that the high street is dying but actually like it is the high street ain't it's not it's never going to go anywhere and i think it's going to have a big comeback i think traditional retail is going to get a comeback i do you know i hope so we and we can see it with our sales and you know boots again on every high street and we see that and i think and people we were actually in a meeting actually and we're talking about like you know a research meeting and actually because of particularly with kids and the preteens because of the kind of interest in skincare and everything else in between now a trick to the high street is now becoming a day out and whether that's like you go and you kind of you get a coffee and you have a you might not be able to afford it but you have a little window shop it's becoming an activity and a something to do again which is and I love it because that's what I did when I was growing up so I bloody love it right I want to do the rocket round now oh god I love this we're supposed to be quick fire okay we never are because oh god it's always two women okay it never ends i'll try and be quick fire um what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business passion passion i could launch 15 other businesses tomorrow they wouldn't be as successful i could launch a golfing attire business i don't know anything about golf people trying to get me excited about rory mccleroy recently i was like yay no idea i could you I could get involved in a curtain business just to make money, but there would be no passion.

1:14:19I'd be like, oh, they're very pretty. Yeah. Passion. Passion leads always. Because it always comes back to that. When the days are hard, you need the passion to keep it alive. That's what gets you out of bed. When you've only got four grand in the bank, you're like, I better get up. I've got people to feed. Absolutely that. And that's the passion is what will keep you there. When did you first realise that you truly launched?

1:14:43I don't know, to be honest. Because it's a blur. I suppose when it was... Was there one moment? Sometimes it's one person that's seen something. I suppose Space NK. That's full circle. Just because it was absolutely full circle. Doing the Space NK training, talking to people that I'd known for nearly 30 years. So it's probably Space NK. Hashtag not an ad. Hashtag not an ad. Hashtag there are other retailers available. I think they should give you shares at this point. Do you know what I mean? What is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? put my phone down, pick it up.

1:15:16I'd say pray, but we all know I'd be fucking lying. I don't wake up and pray. I don't say my prayers before I go to bed. I put my phone down. I turn the telly off, you know, whatever. I mean, I've only recently put a telly in my bedroom after like however many years. And usually I'm too tired. At nighttime, I'm just asleep. I'm out. You know, take my HRT, gone. And in the morning, I pick my phone up just to check, you know, nothing's happened overnight. And then I end up on Instagram and that's it. I'm away. and then hours gone before i realize i'd like to say i jump out of bed at 5 a.m and i work out and i don't i did you for a while but i burnt myself out right and so and i and it's so annoying with this phone thing because i go through real phases and i do wake up early but i still have that lost time on the phone and it actually sometimes i hate the fact that it is the last thing i do and the first thing like i do that before i before i turn around and kiss my husband like that's bad that is bad really isn't it but at least you're still in the same room Jim and I sleep in separate rooms now because he's a snorer there you are there you go the height of luxury when the kids move out and you've got a spare room like see ya yes I love you goodnight I'm going in my room off you far I'm off to my quarters one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to oh anything that would have made me smaller oh are you sure you want to do that anything cautious which to be honest I didn't listen to that's why we ended up being skint that's great we are where we are you know now i will listen because we have shareholders and we have money in the bank that doesn't belong to me is that going to be hard for you no no it's a freedom yeah it's a freedom for me because one i'm not funding it anymore get me back to creative and get me back to npd and filming and being me you know poor al is the one who does all the leg work what's a skill that you'd love to learn that you feel like could help your business i was going to say learning how to play guitar but I don't think that's what you mean um probably something more around tech but to be honest I don't I don't need to learn the skill because I've hired brilliant people to do it yes and I'm not someone who I don't want to be the master of everything because you can't be you know yeah so no I'm good I just hire people yes and also I was saying this the other day that if you learn the thing that you think would add value to the business you're kind of it's like it's like you're always doing something else because then you're not giving you're not freeing up your time yeah in the right way no i think having value on your time and what it means to you and what it means to the business is important as you scale because you know my lot joke because i'm always in a cab i don't have time to take public transport are you joking yeah i first of all i carry like a bag lady so i've always got at least two or three bags with everything in because i go from pillar to post i don't i live near the tube but the office isn't particularly too close to the tube the time it takes me to do that i can be in a black cab pay 10 quid and be working the whole time yeah it's how you value your time yeah yeah yeah you don't want to make and also those decisions that make your life just whatever makes my life easier sometimes it's just not making those decisions get in the cab back work in the back yeah and i will do that for the team i'm the first to say i'll get a cab expensive sit in the back of the cab and work don't be schlepping your way to the tube and like not every day don't door to door for everyone that's expensive for 55 people yes but you know generally if it's and if they're with me they know we're in a cab because I can work we can work we can talk especially in London with a black cab yes you're like boom boom boom bus lanes mate get me there quicker it's so true it's not it's not a luxury it's an expense account like it's literally get me there I want a bus lane I want a black cab and I want to be able to work in the back of it yeah all boxes ticked oh I love this one what's one thing you wish someone had told you before you started your business

1:19:01how tired you might be although I expected to be tired there wasn't really a lot of surprises because I'd done so much consulting beforehand I knew the pitfalls I knew where people were drained yeah you know I knew what to avoid for the most part so there wasn't really a lot of big surprises the main surprises were how much of a dickhead other people can be in business oh when you're dealing with third party and you're like wow you're actually a dick yes and now I've got to pretend to be civil to you in an email where really at the bottom you want to put in white font you're a wanker yeah i hope this finds you unwell i hope this finds you before i do exactly that you don't want that um what would be a dream brand collab for you you know we see now there's this real power in like brands coming together and there's this new wave of even like brand those like dual press trips where two brands are putting one on yes not stupid sharing the fees yeah exactly but also kind of making that real impact what would be a dream brand club for you something like a good american where you can oh yeah i have to say something that they do brilliantly good american and skims the people they manage and obviously they've got budget we all understand that but whoever is and rare beauty rare beauty skims and good american i will never turn off notifications for oh that's interesting i have text i have email and pop-up because their campaigns are around the best in the biz Dolly Parton oh my gosh it's just genius come on isn't it and then when Skims did the two the two prostitutes from White Lotus 2 yes like that incredible the footballers Jesus Christ and Usher he was Super Bowl he was everywhere he was back and then he was and I know they've got the budget but they've got the budget because they've got the sales yeah so it's chicken and egg you know there are dream people that I would pay to be like an influencer type person who's actually a celebrity not an influencer per se but because i think i think it's more about people than key brands but someone anything that emma greed has put her hand to like you who's going to say no to that i know yeah she's the the kind of it's the pace and the and her husband to be fair i mean jens is incredible jens is i still listen to a podcast he did ages ago on repeat because it's so just so crystal clear like talking about how they had skims but it was going to be kimono and everyone was rightfully outraged and they said it was a real learning for us we listened to the community and just humble but severely intelligent yes severely intelligent i love that i don't read books like non-fiction everyone's like oh i read such a good book in my head i'm always going where'd you get the time yeah i'm always i'm always reading and taking in but it's always business or pods or business magazines or always yeah i'm always i'm with you i mean when you think about the skims and nike thing that we've not yet seen but we know that's coming new york it's just chef's kiss isn't it the whole thing um if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be well i mean you should i suppose in our industry say people like estee lauder and stuff but actually i think they were quite closed-minded in terms of their in terms of their there wasn't a lot of outreach and support and things like that So I don't know, someone who's done lots of good things in business, someone like an Emma or someone like, I'm trying to think.

1:22:20Who do I listen to a lot? Who do I? Oh, Scott Galloway. Okay. Professor Scott Galloway. He's an economist who has a podcast and he should run for office in America. I mean, he's not female, but. Oh, sorry, female. Shit. I'll be honest, though. I'll be honest. I don't mind it. I'll be honest. they're few and far between and that's not to put shade on the fellow women in my industry but when i i find when i'm following a lot of content and i would say if you are a woman looking for investment follow male leaders who've done it i love no the best bit of advice i got in the whole process was from two middle-aged white men who were in finance and sat on a lot of boards and they said you have got to be as mean to them as they're going to be to you or they won't respect you and it's when i started being like oh would you say that to me if i had a dick that they were all like oh and sitting up and taking notice you can say with a smile I'm still a girl I'll give you a cup of tea have your brew but you're being a knob yes you know and a lot of the time I'm not sure we're even there yet with female leaders because it's hard because you're still in this in this thing of oh she's quite you know you're either a bitch a woman's a bitch a man is confident yeah I know it's it's chicken head we say it all the time and do you know what one thing that I love about this podcast and one thing that that we always want to get across is that we need men we're not anti-men no no not at all we need them and i think that's one thing emma touched on well is that actually that if you don't recognize if you're a female and you walk into that boardroom and you don't recognize yourself in there guess what great news they need you they need you they need you because you're not already sat at the table thinking about it probably someone like basiliki who's just left as head of you to leave a prestige because she's sort of built a lot of businesses you know they they took investment in people like tatcher kate somerville wren and she's so probably someone like a vasiliki who's done it from that level from an investment side yeah i don't need anyone from the brand side the brand side i'm good i've done that for other people yeah so that's fine it's more the okay let me look at it from your eyes yes yes which is always helpful yeah um each episode i asked our guests to leave one piece of advice for ladies looking to launch so someone looking to build you know something similar to what you have if they're listening to this today and they're like right this is it i'm gonna start today what would one piece of advice be to them just one i mean go for it give a few i mean pay your vat register for vat and pay your vat don't spend your vat number one oh good good register for it early on because i don't know if they still do but until you get to a certain threshold you can claim 20 back but you only give 10 % to the government they do it to incentivize new business so that's a money maker straight from the off don't leave with your ego no one gives a shit about your problems no one gives a shit about your problems everyone has the same shit going on at home you know lead with what's best for the business not what's best for your name you know because I promise you no one cares at the end of the day no one cares it's so true I don't expect my team to as care to care about the business as much as Al and I do we're just lucky that a lot of them do and if you think they're going to you're deluded um be passionate and hire people who are better at you don't have don't be so insecure that you're worried about hiring someone brilliant hire brilliant women in particular hire them and hire mums hire mums who are coming back to business because no one works harder in a business than someone who's got kids i couldn't agree more i love it that you're saying that because it's so true people think that you go to some sort of place to die after that happens but actually no one works harder they will get that job done and if they call you and say my kids got chicken pox i can't come in fair play obviously the kids not well but that work will still be done they'll do it when the kids are asleep yes yes you're so true so so true and then lastly i am very nosy so we talk about launching but i also like to talk about lunch because something that i like ladies who launch ladies who lunch i ask every guest how you spend your lunch hour what are you ordering who takes a lunch hour love this answer because most of us say the same thing but if you was in your ideal scenario and you're like okay everyone needs to eat now and we're going to order in or we're going to make something what are you having for lunch where are you what are you doing we probably if we we do do that on like launch day or big things like that we will everything we'll get lulu will bring in a whole spread we'll order in a whole spread i like a really good sandwich you can't go wrong what's in it anything i just any kind of I'm just a sandwich bitch.

1:26:44It'd probably be, if I was on a Desert Island disc and it was your last meal, I'd be a really good sandwich or a baguette. Heaven. Right. Just heaven. Dream filling. Come on. I'm invested now. I'm not joking. Anything. Okay. My current obsession is chicken salad baguette from Pret. Okay. And they messed with it a couple of weeks ago and changed how they did it. I was raging. Oh, don't do that. They messed with it. I'm like, why the fuck is it in slices? It's supposed to be bits. Pret do a good baguette. I like that. They call it a posh ploughman's, but it's like a cheese and pickle with a load of...

1:27:12an LA bakery, which is in like Notting Hill and High Street, can do a turkey club, which is top tier. Okay. Top tier with a fried egg on top. Like, Oh, come on. Okay. So yeah, just lunch. And it's usually at my desk or, or I go out and sit with the team on the shop floor as it were. Yes. So Al and I share a small office because we couldn't get anything done because when you're on the shop floor and there's 20 people on your floor and they see the running saying I have is they go, Oh, while I've got you, can I just, can I just on the way to the loo? Yeah. Can I just, no, and now then I started going you haven't got me I need a wee or I'd make I'd shut them and go can I have a poo first and then they go oh and I'm like now you don't want me do you or your lunch so but I will I'd rather eat with everyone else well and then they just bombard me while I'm eating a baguette yesterday I was doing content while I was chewing on a ham and cheese baguette like that's great I people take lunches and we encourage them to I'm not that kind of a box but I do occasionally go where the fuck is everyone because they all go together we're here Holland Park.

1:28:09So on a good day, they're all gone. I'm like, is there anyone from marketing in the building? Lunching on mass. And they're like, no, and I'm like, they're all downstairs. I can hear them. So the kitchen over spills into the outside bit. And you know, so wherever there is a desk, I will sit and eat. Yes. On the go. I'm an on the go lunch kind of girl. I mean, taking time out of the day to go and take a lunch hour has not been something I've done for decades. I'd just rather get home earlier. I don't do that either. I'd rather just, no, but even when I have young kids at home, Yeah, I'd rather just be like, I'm leaving now.

1:28:38Yeah. We just get this going. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I've loved it. I've loved talking to you. I feel like we've covered a lot. I'm sorry for all the bad language. I'm not. We like bad language. But I feel like I should say I'm sorry. No, but I feel like it's good. The men don't apologise for swearing. Exactly. So we're not going to apologise. And I read something that says that honest people swear. And people who swear are more intelligent. I didn't know that. Yeah. We're going to take that. But yeah, if you're honest, you swear. I'm clearly superior and intelligent so fuck it thank you so much thank you

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1:29:35Thank you.