Ep 33: Amanda Baldwin: ‘Raise As Little As You Can, But As Much As You Need’ - The Best CEO Advice You’ll Hear This Year

0:12I'm really excited about this one. Today we are speaking to Amanda Baldwin who has been at the helm of some of beauty's most successful brands. We're going to be discussing the fundamentals of running a brand as CEO, telling its story, and how she leads the team that lets the magic happen. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Welcome to Ladies Who Launch. Great to be here. Thank you so much. I know how fleeting this trip is for you. You're here for like 24 hours, so. 48, but close enough. I appreciate that we're going to take up one of those. um I always like to sort of go back in time because I think our early life really forms us but also I think there's always quite a story to tell on that kind of initial trajectory of our career so what how did early life look for you yeah you know it's interesting that you ask that question because I have reflected a lot on that myself because I get asked career advice a lot of times.

1:16And I've learned that the best advice that I can give someone is to ask them what they love to do when they were eight or nine years old before the world told them what they should do, how much money they'd make doing it, all the sort of outside pressures would show up. So what I was like at eight or nine was I loved Barbie dolls and setting up these shopping malls that were merchandised very carefully. And Barbie was always in business. She was a shopkeeper. And the other thing that I loved to do was I grew up in New York City and I lived on the Upper East Side. And there was Madison Avenue that we all hear about.

2:01And I would look at the shop windows and try and I always loved the design of them. And I was always curious why one store was successful and another one wasn't. And somehow all of this led to, I think, the intellectual underpinning of what I do today, which is really brand storytelling and a curiosity about kind of who we are through product. and that came up academically when I went to high school, college and beyond. But I think that's where it all started. It's crazy, isn't it? Because it always somehow shows up and you're not sure how it's going to manifest itself, but it always kind of makes sense.

2:42For you, you began your career in the beauty industry within senior roles at Dior, Clinique, Estee Lauder companies. what going back to that young girl that loved the shop window and the look of like really bringing a brand to life why beauty there was actually a whole analysis behind this so you'll start to see a little bit I love creative but I'm also very analytical so I actually started my career on Wall Street so I came out of college and I went to Goldman Sachs an investment banker and then I started investing in consumer and retail businesses at a firm called Apex. And I was the only analyst on the consumer team.

3:26And so I had four bosses and I would be given every deal that came through the doors of Apex. And I was sort of the first person who would look at it and decide, was this worth a further look? Or was this something that people that I worked for weren't going to be interested in? And so if you can imagine how much you see in two years when you're getting a couple of deals a day. And one of the deals that we looked at was a beauty company. We spent six months pouring my heart into Burt's Bees was being sold at that time by its founder. And we didn't get the deal. but that those six months changed my life because it was somehow through that experience that I understood that beauty was this wildly creative world uh that it kind of always existed right go back to Cleopatra and the Egyptians right you find uh I think some of the first beauty product and yet it was always changing and there was always going to be something new and interesting about it.

4:28I also learned it's a really good business. So the person who had been an investment banker before showing up at Apex loved the P &L of it. And I had a light bulb moment where I was like, okay, well, that seems like the thing I want to go to. Investing is really interesting. And I still think like an investor. I still have a financial underpinning to what I do. But when I was on that factory floor in North Carolina and other deals, I would end up in the design room that's when my wheels really started to turn I think reconnected with those shop windows and somehow I figured out that I and I still believe this to the day that that beauty is the perfect mix of right and left brain and and I had a whole chart about this when I was going to business school about why I wanted to get into the beauty industry it's so interesting and what what do you think was the real why for you the why of beauty yeah I think at first it was that very analytical point of view of okay I want to see what it's like to be on the quote unquote other side of the table what career do I pick what industry do I pick I thought that beauty was again this right brain left brain world that it was great training that it was a place where marketing really drove strategy and I love thinking about kind of where the world's going and how do you present a world and a brand in that context over time I fell in love with it in a different way and I really connected with the product and the power that beauty has and kind of its ability to create change in our world and coming to Olaplex has been a whole nother re-falling in love with the hair industry because hair to me is beauty on steroids uh it's kind of got this next level emotional impact on people, real cultural conversations around it.

6:23And so it has everything, the beauty you had, but it's kind of amped up in a different way. And what happens in a salon, I think, is this sort of magical thing. Therapy. It's therapy. It's the conversation. It's the physical touch. There's so little in our world that still happens in person. And I don't know, maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't think we're going to figure out how to cut your hair through AI. So that's going to be there. That's going to be there. So, man, let's hold on to these things. And so I think I found through beauty this other purpose of I can actually impact people's lives, which was always very important to me.

7:02It was another thing about my childhood was I was definitely raised in a way that if you have opportunity, what are you going to do with it? uh what are you how are we going to use it to move the world forward in whatever way it is I don't think I could have predicted that but I've certainly I think that's why I've stuck with the industry uh and really over time continue to find it to be just an exciting place to be I want to come on to you and your journey at Odorplex but before we do that I want to touch on Supergoop when I say touch on I mean we're gonna really go there okay because I it's Such an incredible brand to sort of, from the outside, the kind of, the way that it launched, the way that it was kind of so concise in its concept.

7:50And I think that's, you know, it was really clear. It was crystal clear on the outside. And a skincare brand specialising in sun protection, I suppose at a time where that category in itself was really thriving, did that joining supergoop did that also come with a lot of pressure for it to do well under you in a space that was really kind of booming so space was not booming when i joined it wow that's interesting i joined supergoop so the supergoop story is one that will always be the place i grew up in some way right uh and i met holly thaggard the founder in 2016 If you rewind back to 2016, nobody was talking about sunscreen.

8:39Holly was talking about sunscreen. She had an insight because she had a friend who was diagnosed with skin cancer at a very young age. And she had made it her life's work to change that, to say, I'm going to get rid of skin cancer. And there's many stories that have been told about this. But the short version of it is she started in school. She was a teacher. she was going to bring sunscreen into schools. Turns out that teaching about sunscreen was an essential part of what Supergoop was about. Finding the kid in all of us, making it a joyful experience. Not a great business. I showed up when she had one shelf in 100 Sephoras, in which many people thought I was completely nuts because I left a big private equity job to go to this business that was a few million dollars in sales, 10 ,000 Instagram followers kind of a website that maybe you could check out on a good day and a really big idea and it was my job to figure out how to make that vision come true and through seven and a half years and it's still going strong and I will always have a soft spot for it we changed the way the world thinks about sunscreen and that category was a non-event and it was through product innovation and really sitting down and saying, well, okay, if people don't wear sunscreen, and this was absolutely Holly's other early insight, was how do I make it feel good on the skin?

10:11Right. Right. So that chemistry that people take for granted a little bit now in sunscreens, I still think Supergoop's the best, but you see a little bit more talk about clear sunscreen or feel-good sunscreen. That was all created by Supergoop. and it was the insight around, okay, how do I create a product that people love and how do I tell a story? So all these things that you see that look very sharp in that storytelling, that was an unbelievable team and an incredible CMO who I partnered with very, very early on. And the insight that like, okay, we're going to make this fun. It's already in the name, but it did not look the way that it does now.

10:54Packaging wasn't even the same. The logo was slightly different. Literally, if I brought out pictures to you, you'd be like, wait, what? You wouldn't recognize it. You wouldn't recognize it. Well, you would. It was like a baby, right? A toddler that hadn't fully grown up yet, but the DNA was there. And I think that's the greatest entrepreneurial story of grit where I learned that it's two steps forward, one step back but if you know really what the big idea is and why you're doing it you keep going and and you can actually change the world uh and you know certainly i will forever take a lot of pride in that story but a lot of people don't know that it was not a booming category it wasn't a booming category that's not there was no such thing really as prestige sun care most people are like manna what are you doing and there's definitely been that dial shift because now we're kind of really aware that it should be part of our skincare yeah you know but it wasn't it was it was seen very kind of you use sunscreen when you're outside and now it's now part of our skincare and we kind of i i say this humbly uh i really think supergoop was the one that drove that change so so like you say you're leaving this great job at the time you know this which obviously then your career is is constantly doing this but at the time people think you're crazy for leaving the job that you're in you then land at supergoop what do you like you say they've got a shelf at sephora it isn't remotely the business that it is today what's your first step in thinking okay i've got the reins here we need to make supergoop the brand that we know now what what's the first move that you take in terms of a strategy in terms of how you kind of because it's so interesting taking a brand from one thing and building it to the brand that we know and love now and it that takes more than just because we talk a lot on this show to founders and but it takes a lot more than a founder's vision the founder can have that vision of what they want it to be but to execute that and to execute that well that's where the likes of you come in i think there's a difference between vision and strategy uh and again the vision of change the way the world thinks about sunscreen that's Holly's vision right there's no like she owns that a hundred percent uh to make us aware of that but what I think where I was able to come in and say okay if we want to do that but how are we going to do it yes uh and what does that mean in terms of our product development strategy what does that mean in terms of the brand we need to build what does that mean in the marketing that we need to do who are we going to partner with as a retailer uh and what's the supply chain right There's the things that the world sees and then there's the things that the world doesn't see.

13:43And I always say that they're both equally essential. And if you have one without the other, it's not going to work. And the real truth of all this is it's about a team. It's about the people that you can put whatever you want on a PowerPoint slide. And I actually have still the three bullet points that I put down on a piece of paper three weeks into that job. They never changed, right, about, okay, we have to have innovative product that changes how people use sunscreen in their routine, that you have to have a brand that people are going to love. You have to – there was all sorts of nuggets of gold in the original brand and that we have to execute like heck and the detail of how we make that real.

14:29But we built a great team. And that was – the breakthroughs were because of the people. the reason sunscreen is cool is because of Brittany who was my CMO there she made it cool I helped her a little bit and we would show up in places again this business was a few million dollars we had no money and we would just make friends with I called it the mutual love of yellow society so we'd show up at SoulCycle and be like will you take our product so that was that was the stuff and I think it's no different at Olaplex uh it's still about what's the breakthrough innovation and product that we're going to deliver what's the brand story that we're going to deliver can we execute against it do we have the right team those things I think no matter what kind of entrepreneur you are uh and I'm certainly not a founder but I like to think of myself as an entrepreneur and you see that consistently I think time and time again yeah I'm just I mean correct me if these stats are wrong here but under your leadership the brand experience we know the significant growth with sales reaching 250 million dollars in 2022 i don't know that they ever put that out publicly but you can say it well i mean it's out there it's out there it's out there i think that's the number that's out there and marking a 65 percent year over year increase i mean this is this education piece and this kind of the way that you want to execute the brand and the way that that's going to evolve I mean hearing those numbers it worked it did work but it was not easy everything seems you know I think well for the lens of success through the lens of success right it's all an overnight success it's all only about the percentage increases and I think not enough is said about how hard it is and how many days you think oh boy that was not what I was hoping was going to happen what what what were one of those moments where you kind of you're all geared up to this launch or this real new you know you've the the team under you you're really happy with everyone and the performance and you've got this incredible team was there a moment that you thought okay this really didn't work out the way that we thought it might that felt like a bit of a blow at the time I I always, but at the same time, I almost don't even process those things because I think of them as part of the journey.

17:00Right. And they are, I call them speed bumps. They're not walls. They're not blocks. They're just things that slow you down. You have to pivot and adjust. Obviously, I led that business through COVID, which is probably the most striking example. And I don't even know that we have to go back to that time. But, yeah, that was pretty tough. Yeah. When you're like, is anyone going to use sunscreen? What's going to happen? Do I have enough cash in the bank? Are my people okay? That was two weeks after we launched Glow Screen, which became, you know, the number one SKU in that brand. So we figured it out.

17:37But there was days all the time like that. And I think that that's probably the best piece of entrepreneurial advice I could give everyone is it's a roller coaster. But the ups, the downs, they come and go. And it's the ride that you're really on. And the minute you sort of figure that out and you're strapped in, then you actually get to have a good time. So I did not know that going into that. I had never worked in a young company. I had never I'd always been in these big, very established businesses. But I feel like that was a life gift as well. Yeah. Was to learn that. And also a real like kind of test of your leadership to like you like going into those kind of.

18:22those early starting out companies and you really having to lead a team what sort of leader are you do you think I would say I I take it very seriously I feel like it's something that you can learn to get better at I think that I don't believe that there's such a thing as a leadership style because I think every person every situation is different I think that things that I try to keep consistent are the belief that it's my job to help us see the things that we don't even always know we can see both in a business and in ourselves and to set really lofty goals uh to be there when we don't make every single one right on those those good days as well as the bad days uh and to help every individual and and now we have a business where i don't know everyone at Supergoop.

19:17I knew everyone. I knew their family. I knew their kids. I watched people have babies. It was a very different experience. But even in Olaplex where I'm like, I know that we've done the right job. If somebody looks back at whatever period of time they're at Olaplex, that was a really awesome part of my career. And if we can get that right, I think the business happens. So I think that the business is a product of leadership. It's not necessarily that the leadership as an input into the business. Yes, yeah. Let's talk about Olaplex. Because you come aboard with Olaplex in 2023. I mean, do you still feel quite new?

19:59Because it's not that long ago. It's not that long. I'm not sure what the word is for it. I still have a long to-do list, but I feel like I have my bearings in a certain way, right? And that took a little bit of time. I didn't have a lot of time, but I think I pretty quickly understood the job to be done. Right. And really spent last year gaining the things that I think we talked about before, which is the clarity of what's the end game here. Can we articulate it well? Because I think if you don't know where you're trying to go, it's impossible to get there, right? I mean, that sounds obvious to say, but I think it was a business that didn't know where it was going.

20:42and so having a true vision and a mission of what you're trying to accomplish I think makes every decision easier and it makes it gives you purpose for why you're getting up every day and then we had to start to build the strategy around that vision and team and all these things that and if it's all going to sound like the same the same things as I said in super group just in a very different circumstance different industry different scale of business that's why I got excited about it was because I was going to start to learn something new but to also bring to this business some things that feel very comfortable to me at the same time yeah like you say a lot of it's similar because that's your approach that's what you know that you need to do but taking on that role a really different time for those different brands and this came at quite a challenging period for Olaplex right you arriving here sales declining I suppose a few reputational issues but the core of the brand is that I mean I'm such a fan of Olaplex I've always been such a fan marketing is a real funny beast isn't it because it kind of a lot of that is dictate that can really be dictated by the customer right but also there's that work behind the scenes where you have to kind of meet that what was that what you kind of brought to the forefront instantly were those marketing skills I think I certainly brought instantly an idea that this was important it took me and the team a little while to get ready to go on our front foot, right, which is really what we're starting to do now.

22:26And that had to do with, again, team, talent, and a clarity of what kind of brand did we really want to build. So all of it was in the origin story of Olaplex, right? The origin story of Olaplex is truly breakthrough science, right? Some people talk about breakthrough science. This is truly breakthrough science with product that I believe is the best that you can create. and in our industry, again, there's lots of stuff, but can you get something that's really different, really better? I want to go to bed at night knowing that that's what I'm working on. But what the business didn't have was what I would call brand.

23:08And I think you have to, great product without brand doesn't always get you all the way there. It can get you somewhere, right? I'd certainly say it's a heck of a running start and that's what this business had. And that's all of its success was because people love the product so much. But in order to really scale to the next level, to create something that has real longevity over time, there's an emotional aspect to everything that we do. Yes. Just because it works, I think we all know that that's only half the story. Especially in a category that is as emotional as hair, I need to have an emotional connection with what I'm doing.

23:46And in order to do that, you have to figure out, well, what kind of emotional connection is that? What's right for this brand? So you go digging around and you – what I learned was that this innovation had enabled the craft of artistry that exists in the hairstylist community. That's essentially what Olaplex can do. It just – it came from a lot of conversations with pros telling me, okay, it's because of Olaplex, I can be the creator that I want to be, that I can make people feel in my chair the way I want them to do. I can't – so it's really this concept of Olaplex as the enabler of what happens when you walk out of a salon, both for how the pro feels as well as for their client.

24:27So somewhere in that had to be the story that we're now bringing to life. And we really we talk about it as sort of this mixture of science and style. Right. You have this molecule, which is a serious, hardcore patented molecule. But it's just chemistry until it ends up in the hands of the pro and on someone's head. And there it comes to life. And it was all about and that's everything that's going on in the brand right now is how do you bring that the storytelling story? Right. And and the story for us is. about these kind of incredible experiences that happen in the chair and how people feel.

25:07I call it unapologetic confidence because, you know, again, you try and figure out what's the thing that I offer the world. And it is for both the pro and for the client. And hairstylists are – I never realized what sort of incredible, magical humans hairstylists are. so I bow down to each and every one of them right hairstylist honestly it's that that relationship between and I'm saying a woman because that's that's the seat that I'm sitting in between a woman and the hairstylist in in my case is just so special and so valuable it's like every session is a therapy session it's kind of like and I always think of hairstylists and anyone in that sort of like service-based industry that at the end of the day they must be exhausted because we all feel like we're the only one right we sit there and it's that really kind of special relationship but at the end they must just be so tired emotionally it's I think it's it's a real art form what they do right from both what they're doing with their hands but what they're doing with their words and what that all combines uh and you know again I ask everybody uh how did you become a hairstylist why tell me about Olaplex and and the stories are always different but the common thread is always this helped me be a better version of myself right so there's sort of the self-expression that comes from it and a self-actualization that often I hear from hairstylists and then they're able to trans like it's almost like by putting their hand on your head they're infusing you with that yes and that kind of cycle that happens again I think I've found in that my purpose the purpose for Olaplex the purpose for our people because again as we were saying before, there's so much we do like this.

27:00We push buttons and ta-da, the thing ends up at my doorstep and I don't know who made it or how it got there or whatever. So I just feel this sort of responsibility for us to hold on to these moments that are about that human interaction. And that's what Olaplex actually allows to happen. So there we found the emotion, but it had to be sort of excavated it's almost like an archaeological expedition you go on as a brand builder to try and find that because it has to come from a place of truth and authenticity otherwise when you start to tell that story and bring it to life it kind of crumbles it's not going to connect and also it's quite it's quite hard sort of retelling a story when a brand already exists is that is that a little more difficult you know like if a brand is kind of like a seed of an idea and the brand is spawning it's the first we're becoming aware of that brand yeah it's an easier thing to tell the story and we're on board but if a brand or it exists to kind of yes it's still that it's still the root of you know the brand it's always been that but to retell it perhaps with a new voice yeah it's not a blank sheet of paper yeah right it is certainly uh there's marks on the page but i don't know i've always believed everything happens for a reason yeah and somewhere in the Olaplex story was this was supposed to be the next chapter and the chapter between but it's so true to the founding story that that's to me how we know we're on the right path and now we have an opportunity to really kind of go out there and tell that story and connect and that's kind of what brought me to London for the next few hours and and to just start to get out there and it's It's a real joy to do it because we know that, again, that that moment and that feeling we all kind of can relate to.

28:54And I think it's so I'm excited to see where we go. Absolutely that. Talk to me about your day to day role at Olaplex and how that looks for you. I mean, it seems like there is no real probably no day to day because you're in London for 48 hours, then you're back to New York. But how does building that brand story, building brand, how does that now look like for you? I think the role of a CEO is to try and paint a picture about the biggest picture and then find the right people for each piece of the puzzle and then connect them. Right. So my day to day life is a lot about are we sure about our true north or is that coming through?

29:39Are we clear about it? Do we need to address anything in any way? And then setting people up for success. And if something gets in their way, figuring out, OK, how are we going to unblock that situation? How do we get around it? Most of my day is about that. these are special times when I get to sit and pontificate about all of it. And I think the thing that I really, going back to the sort of what is it like when you're younger, I never had a favorite subject in school. People would always be like, what's your favorite subject? I'm like, why do I have to pick one? Never made sense to me. And so somewhere that's what I get to do, right?

30:17I can go from a finance meeting to supply chain to new product to packaging to critiquing the vm and trying to figure out oh that font is the wrong size and it's all part of my job right and i think that's what i've really always loved about the role that i have is that it's variety and that it's it's variety but it's also about connecting all those things together into one picture that you kind of hopefully can see out of the corner of your eye uh what it's supposed to look like yeah it's like you kind of have the puzzle right you know what the you have the the uh but you are putting all those pieces together you know it's going to come together yeah just yeah at what point it's going to be um i want to the rocket round with you now so these are essentially quick fire okay um but i mean i say this and i'm so forgiving with this because when two people like to talk it's never quick um but the first question um what do you believe the non-negotiables are for running a business?

31:20Clarity and goal, right? So some form of vision and sense of what you're able to do that nobody else can do. I think, again, when founders have asked me advice, like, what can you say in one sentence that you're doing that is really yours? And if you can't articulate it in a sentence you haven't figured it out yet yes uh and relationships are everything and if i had a nickel for every door that's been open to me because of some seed that i planted years before and didn't even really realize it and nurturing those relationships and paying it forward and just trying to be a good human uh it pays dividends um down the line yes I love that what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed oh good it depends on where uh what I'm doing first thing I do when I wake up I try to work out so I probably am like up and out the door whenever I can uh so tomorrow I'm I'm an early riser.

32:31Yeah. And bed, I either fall asleep with my 10-year-old because I'm so exhausted or I'm on an email trying to catch up, but I never like to be the person that's slowing things down. Probably A is better than B. It's so funny because it's that moment where you're like, I'm going to go and put the kids to bed or my youngest. And then all of a sudden my husband's tapping me like, baby, you coming to bed? I'm like, oh, my God. I've done it again. I've done it again. I figure he'll kick me out eventually, so I better enjoy it while last. So killed up. Exactly that. One piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to.

33:09Had not listened to. Ooh.

33:16I don't, you know, I tend to listen to myself. Yeah. I love that. I would say that there's certainly, I try and listen to everything and then make my own decision. And I think you really know in your gut what the right decision is. Yeah. And you should process in all the information, but I think it's in here already. Yeah. And it's trying not to let that kind of outside noise distract you too much. If you can already feel it. You already feel it. And I have definitely had plenty. When I chose to get out of private equity and into the beauty industry, when I decided to go to the sunscreen industry, when I decided to leave running a business for Blackstone to come and do this.

33:56those have all been moments where the outside noise is sometimes loud uh and i try to just follow my gut yeah and you've done that very very well and listen we should your gut's your second brain as they say oh i like that i've never heard that before but then yeah maybe first sometimes um what's one skill that you'd love to learn tennis oh yes kind of like not great but i really love you want to be good I really want to be good oh okay I might have to retire first but we need time to get good at yes we need time to get good that's the goal that's the goal um what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your career be patient I think out of the gate I was super focused on how quickly could I get more responsibility and a promotion and I remember VP, VP, VP, I was gunning for it.

34:54And look, that ambition is awesome, right? I would never shy away from it. But I wish I had just kind of known that it would come. And yeah, I think so I would sort of, I tell young people all the time, I'm like, it will come because we're all kind of going for it. But at the same time, that's good. That's healthy. I don't want to say that that's not a good thing. It's like part of the hustle. Part of the hustle is good, right? So I'm not saying that's not, but some piece of me probably could have just chilled out a little bit. Read a little bit more. Yeah, I'm with you. Oh, this is a good one.

35:30What would be the dream collab, do you think, for Olaplex? You know, we're in this world where we're seeing, like, these big brand collabs. Yes. What would be the dream? You've got the face. I don't know. I might have to keep that one to myself. There's a collab coming that you can't yet talk about. I don't know. I want someone to reach out to me and say, I've got the answer. How about that? Great answer. I love that. And if you could choose one female figure as a mentor, past or present, who would that be? Bestie Lauder. She, I did not have the privilege of working there when she was still alive, but I've read her autobiography and so many things that we take for granted in our industry or because of the entrepreneur that she was and just what guts.

36:22Yes. And yeah, I'd really would have loved to have met her because I also know how much of an impact she had on that organization because a lot of people that I worked for had that. So she's always my dream dinner party guest. And anybody that I've particularly sat down with on this podcast that I've had, joe malone for instance yes she was a i listened to that i was amazing i mean she's just incredible and you can see how highly she speaks of her and everybody does and the the the breadth of impact yeah on if you probably went to how many ceos running businesses today were somehow impacted by her or i did interact with leonard lauder and some of the other members of the family it's amazing yeah and the way that her legacy lives on is lives on lives on is incredible is really incredible each episode i ask our guests to leave a tip almost like one piece of real tangible advice that you'd give to a lady looking to launch maybe doing something in the same vain or you know somebody that we talk and a lot of our listeners are you know running small businesses or just about to start one and can't sort of have a ceo at this point and they are that person and trying to figure everything out what would your advice be to them i think we touched on some of it clarity and being able to summarize what you're doing and the difference in and its sort of reason for being very succinctly.

38:00Recognition that the path is not linear. And that's the joy of it. But I think knowing that out of the get-go. Pragmatically, I'd say that when it comes time to fundraise, raise as little as you can, but as much as you need. I think that sort of making sure you're thoughtful about your capital structure is someplace that I find a lot of founders don't all understand totally the math because we're not taught that in school. And so just being really thoughtful about how you're raising capital. If you're raising capital, it's probably a whole podcast episode in and of itself. And then surround yourself with people who believe as much in your dream as you do.

38:41And I think that Holly really deserves a credit for she trusted me and really gave me the keys to the car, so to speak, because I think she saw that I had believed and was going to just do right by that. So that's a scary thing for a founder to do. Again, probably a whole other podcast in and of itself. But if you get that right and you can trust and find great people, you do not go on these journeys by yourself. Yes, that is such important advice. Because I think when you're in your infancy, you really think there can be a little bit of wanting to keep control and you can't scale you will not scale you will not scale you cannot do my job by myself you cannot get a business to a certain to you know you can do a lot of great things but if you want to have real scale you have to trust other people which is the hardest thing to do which is very hard but when you get it right it's awesome yeah and then lastly I ask everybody this because I'm curious and I'm always intrigued by how people spend their lunch hour so that would imply having a lunch hour you were going to say that oh I don't know how many lunches I don't eat sitting in a meeting yeah well you can you can have your lunch in a meeting what's your go to order who are you normally with and where are you sweet green well I that's definite sweet green is incredible We don't have sweet green here.

40:10I know. I know. I had something good for lunch today, though. What did you have? I don't know. Someone knows. Someone knows. But that's my go-to order. And if you don't know what sweet green is, it's like the most epic salad place. It's a little bit like we have one called Salad Project here or Attis. It's a little similar to those two, but it's kind of super - It's always great. And yeah, so that answer is very consistent. Who I'm with and what I'm doing, totally different every day. So, you know, like I said, I go from one thing to the next and I love that about what I do. The variety. And I think that's what I can, after speaking to you, that's kind of what you need.

40:51I can see that to feel kind of excited and focused almost. You need that kind of, they say variety is the spice of life. Yes, exactly. I'm a living testament to that. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been so good to talk to you and it's so nice to sit and speak with you because I'm such a fan of everything you seem to be a part of. Thank you. I appreciate that. Love that. Thanks, guys.

41:25Don't forget to follow us on Apple and Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you don't miss out. Because next time we're going to be joined by another incredible lady who launched. If like me you're a watcher then follow us on YouTube and please don't forget to like and subscribe