Ep 34: From Bank Job to Beauty Mogul: How Mona Kattan Built a Fragrance Empire

0:11On today's episode we are joined by the incredible Mona Katan. Now, she is the founder behind Kay Ali, a perfume brand that's redefining the way we wear and experience scent. As a serial entrepreneur and a beauty industry icon, she is just so impressive. And I know that you're going to love her as much as I did. So let's dive in and discover why she's a lady who launched. Well, welcome to Ladies Who Launch. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so, so excited to sit and talk to you and celebrate your success. It's so beautiful to watch from the outside.

0:51So I'm so pleased that you're here to talk to me. Thank you. And same for you. I mean, honestly, I've been following your career the past, you know, few years and everything that you built. Congratulations on everything and more power to you. And hopefully you reach the highest high. Thank you so much. And I can't wait to see you disrupt all of the categories you're in. Oh, I love you. That is so, so kind. And also, we must say that we've had a bit of a glow up in the studio. We are everywhere. Everybody smells incredible. And we are branded. And I absolutely love it. When starting the podcast, it really become clear to me that women often have some kind of influence in their younger life.

1:32So I always like to start the podcast in the same space. And that is hearing about the younger you and your earlier life and how that looked. So tell me a little bit about Mona when she was a little girl. Oh, my God. That's a big question. I haven't thought about it in a while. So I had an interesting childhood. I grew up in the States and middle America. I grew up in Tennessee, a small town, and then Dartmouth, Massachusetts, also a very small town to immigrant parents who came from Iraq. So we grew up with, you know, a very interesting home. My mom is very religious and traditional. My dad is a workaholic and he's all about education.

2:16He was a professor for many years. So between the two of them, they're always like encouraging hard work and a lot of purpose and meaning. So I think I've always really pushed myself really hardly because of my parents. And I've always really been into beauty because I was a pageant princess. I was in pageants from the age of three until seven. And that's where I started getting obsessed with makeup, with glam, with beauty, even performing, like being on stage and like, you know, just kind of having that experience to be in the spotlight to some extent. So I think that kind of unknowingly created this path of like where I am today.

2:54You know, I lived in the States for 17 years, then I moved to Dubai, and I've been there now for 23 years. But yeah, I'd say that, you know, I've always been raised to be obsessed with beauty and feeling your best, but also to work really, really hard and push self and it's so it's so interesting to me because I was I've as I said I've followed you for a long time but I was really reading about you and doing my research before this and I know that you've talked about the fact that you worked in a bank for a year at your parents request and this really really kind of interests me did you feel sort of because I've definitely felt like this in my time I've not really conformed but did you sort of feel a pressure to have that stereotypical kind of reliable job like a serious job absolutely that was my first serious career job you know I was working since I was 14 years old so I had many full-time jobs in high school I worked in university part-time but my first career job was working in a bank And that was my dad's pressure, you know, from his he grew up with very like humble beginnings.

4:10So for him, just having something very stable, very risk free was important for him to feel like I would be safe. So he really pushed me and my siblings to follow some sort of safe career path. And I was there for about a few months and I was like, I knew immediately it was not for me. I don't think it was finance specifically because I love I love numbers. I love math. I love actually, I love investing. I love that world. But it was the environment. And it was also not being able to go outside of my, my remit, you know, I felt very limited. And I'm a person who loves to do more than what I'm supposed to do.

4:48So I felt very bored. I was like, I feel like I'm because I'm junior, I was an analyst. I was like, I can only do a very small window of things. And they don't want me to go outside of it. I tried. I was like, what if I help with this what if I help with that and I wanted to go beyond that but it was not encouraged you know so and it was also the global crisis it was 2008 so it was like a really negative sentiment that time so I think timing is everything and um yeah I told my dad shortly after I was like I hate it here I feel like a dog cat like in a car and like I'm trying to go outside the window and I'm like I'm stuck inside and he's like stay one year so I did I stayed one year.

5:26And a year and one month later, I resigned. I was like, I need to go. I didn't have a plan at all. I had no idea what I was going to do. And then last minute, all my friends were telling me, get into PR. I had no background in PR at the time. But they're like, you love everything that everything that you love. You talk about nonstop and you won't shut up about it. They're like, you're perfect for PR. So me and my friend started a PR agency together. And he really helped teach me so much about PR but I had no idea what I was going to do that is so so interesting so that to me says that from the jump you knew that you were you were kind of able to take those risks not conform not stay in that kind of I had a low salary I think that's why yeah yeah I don't have much to lose like I've always been a hustler so like I was doing so many side things in university and like when I totaled it up it was like what I make on my side hustles is more than what I make as a salary so I was like I don't have that much to lose I think if I would have waited longer and got more you know secure with a better package a better salary I probably would have been stuck but I left before I got too comfortable wow so I didn't have much to walk away from to be honest so so talk to me about the PR agency what was the PR agency called Mastermind PR it was actually my friend who named it he was the one who taught me the ropes and it was very interesting it was one of the best learning experiences I ever got because we didn't do only PR we did PR and business consulting but we focused on branding and just like you know building your community before social media days so it was a very interesting ahead of the cab it was before it even existed really like before it was really meaningful like Facebook was around then but that was it you know so um we had to kind of work on building real life communities through our own networks through other people's networks so it's such a different time but it was super interesting and just learning how to like hack the system and make a you know make a brand or product get media you know by getting the right celebrity to wear that was the way you did it back then it was like you had to get a celebrity to talk about your brand and if you could through nothing through having no budget so it taught me to be really scrappy it taught me to really focus on building relationships because again I worked with originally I worked with startup brands who had no budget some of them didn't even pay me right um so I was like I have to be really creative and also use my network and build my network to get people to do favors for me so it was a really great lesson and um super interesting and I definitely took that on to everything that I did after that yeah I mean so many tools learn like you say so many tools that you can then later on apply into everything that you've then achieved since I want to sort of then fast forward to Huda Beauty because I there are so many questions I have by the way there are so many questions I have in terms of being in business with my sister I can't imagine oh you're not in business with you no no no probably a ways decision i think we're safe there and like she's my best friend but i just can't imagine doing that but on this podcast we've spoken to so many different founders that are perhaps in business with their friends or husbands and it really can sometimes change a dynamic sometimes for the better right but also sometimes for the worst too so i've got so many questions but i want to talk about back then and your sister being Huda she was using some lashes right right I kind of can you sort of unpick this for me sure so she obviously has a big influence right and she was using lashes that were kind of custom made she was cutting lashes up together and using them on her clients and a lot of her clients were my friends so they actually used to come to me and be like where can we get Huda's lashes from um so one day I just had an epiphany and it was also because to be fair I had a beauty salon at that time so I had started a beauty salon and I was looking on Alibaba for items for my salon because locally the markup was insane in Dubai like for all the materials that we were sourcing so I would go on Alibaba and I'd search for like mass quantities of things for my salon so I saw lashes on there and then I kept hearing this question and I told her I was like how would you feel about starting a lash brand?

9:47You know, I keep hearing this question about where can you get your lashes? Where can you get your lashes? And at that time, I think the salon was about six months to nine months old. And I learned a lot about general management. So it was the first time I had a real business because in the PR agency, I was self-employed. There was no employees. We didn't even have a trade license, to be honest. We were using my friend's parents' trade license, but it was the first time I invested in CapEx, you know, had to do everything from like a GM perspective. So it made me realize business is not rocket science at all.

10:18It's not, it's not that hard in terms of getting it started. Yes. What's hard is like keeping it going and growing and not dying, having a successful business, but launching alone itself is not that difficult. It's just getting the work done. It's being tenacious and not giving up. So I was like, what do you think about starting a brand? And she was like, if you can help with like the business side of things because I had more experience at that time. She was like, I'm all for it. So we started with one supplier, five lashes. My sister Alia had put up the capital and everything. And we worked together as three sisters and we launched the brand.

10:56This was in 2013. And we never thought from day one that it would eventually become a full, you know, full category beauty brand. But we just took it one step at a time. And at that time, there was a huge gap in the lash category because MAC was really popular it was a great great price point but it was still more expensive than Huda Beauty and also there was not enough variety like they didn't have more wispy more natural lashes it was still like the very fake lashes back then yeah so you know what she offered was something very unique and her creativity there's a gap for that I think it's so interesting too because one thing from the outside when it launched is that I could really feel that the disruption was about to happen.

11:45You were around, I feel like you're so young. I do, yeah. I wish. You're too young to remember this. I wish. I wish. If only that is very nice. You look way younger. We're all seeing the right people. um I yeah I just really remember how exciting it was and what is so interesting to hear that and connecting the dots now and I'm picking it I can really see that your time in branding and helping other brands be seen with being a bit scrappy and that scrappy startup mentality I can really see that yeah did it feel like an exciting time very exciting um stressful yeah It still is. Yes. But very exciting because I think when you have no team and barely any resources, like barely any capital, you have to be so creative.

12:32Yeah. So creative. And I love problem solving. Like problem solving is where I get a lot of my energy from. So I like having a lot of pressure. I like being challenged. And that was a very challenging time. I'm not saying it's not anymore. It's more challenging and probably more complex challenges. But at that time it was like just having, and I also did, there was some beauty of like being three people in the room working together and like having to figure it out with very little, you know, it's, it's hard. It's so interesting because. And it trauma bonds you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've all got those trauma bonds.

13:04It's so interesting because actually problem solving is my worst part of being a founder. Oh really? Yeah. Call me. Yeah. I'm like, can you please? I'll help you troubleshoot. Yeah. Anytime. Like it's a thing that I'm like, but I feel like, okay, armor on today. I'm so much I'm so into the creative and they're like NPD and all that I get I get such a thrill out of and that part I think oh gosh okay this is where I'm like oh it's a business I remind myself that it's not a passion project anymore you know well you know I'm sure it's both and you have to have that balance right um and maybe it's your other team members or your co-founders or partners who can help you balance it out.

13:43And I think that was probably the beauty of working together at that time. It was, we had very different skill sets, very different personalities. And I think that's great. And that's what I try to do now. Now I'm no longer working with my family, but in terms of building the team, I always try to find people who are very different to me, think different to me, are better than me in many ways that help fill the gaps. And I've learned that is super critical, like bringing people that are very different to you. And I suppose starting up, it must almost feel like a little bit of a sort of safety net to you being so close.

14:18Like when people go into business with friends, there's more of a risk that fallout could happen or but your sisters are your sisters. Right. And I suppose that must bring a little bit of a safety net to all of you for different reasons. For sure. And I think timing is everything. Like today, would I do it again? Like start a new business with my sisters? No, I wouldn't, you know, only because I've evolved as a person and I've, I went from being extremely codependent to like, I just want to be independent. Like that's really important to me. More because I have a clear vision of what I want and I don't want to sacrifice for anybody else.

14:52But I think timing was a, we didn't have salaries to pay anyone. So everybody worked for free for many years. So I think that's one of the benefits of working with family. if you do give equity and you're more likely to stay long term because sometimes with partnerships and when you're just partners or your friends, people maybe want to change their mind a few years down the line and then it gets difficult because you have to buy people out and maybe you don't have the money to do so. So with family, you're more long term a bit. So you can think, okay, even if we have to do this for five, 10 years, you're less likely to jump ship and go somewhere else.

15:24But again, in this stage of my life, like I just turned 40, I wouldn't do it again I'm all about independent absolutely that independent paths um but we're in our 20s back then so like that was the right time of course I mean the variation already I love it I love it I love the kind of and that's it feels very similar to me I can really understand those different kind the pivots and the way that happens I want to talk about the moment you have the light bulb to take that time for you and knowing instantly what it is you were going to do you mean with yeah so that was a journey as well to be honest so I've always been obsessed with fragrances my entire life like since I was a child um my sense of smell was my favorite sense to be honest because I'm very sensitive very emotional and I'm more about feelings than visual so like I really love smelling things.

16:20Moving to Dubai made that love skyrocket. And then when I first discovered niche fragrances, that was when I was like, oh my God, my life has changed. And I'm so obsessed. But I actually worked on fragrance samples before even launching a salon. So actually one of the brands that I did PR for, I begged them to do their PR. I did it for free perfume. It was Mikaelif, which was my first niche fragrance I ever owned. It was gifted to me from a friend. And that's when I was I really want to do this one day. I met the founders, learned their story, and I fell in love with them. I still love them so much.

16:51And I actually tried to work with them on a brand. I tried with some other people. I tried with investors, but it never worked out. So it was on the back burner. And it went on the back burner for longer than I had thought it would be because Hedda Beauty exploded. And again, timing, you know, the color category skyrocketed 2015, 16, 17, and even 18. It was like a crazy boom because of social media and content creators and fragrance did not you know fragrance was the forgotten category until covid it was undisrupted it was boring it was the same recipe the same equation constantly that's why even even though we launched KLE in end of 2018 it struggled for the first few years because it was not disrupted and we were probably too soon you know we were trying to you know teach this new experience this new ritual of layering this new this whole new idea that people weren't really ready for yet and the content creator community wasn't there yet so it was a really big battle for the first few years say 2021 was when it really kind of started to snowball and grow but um but yeah I've always wanted to create a fragrance brand I wanted to do it with my family and I didn't want to eventually carve out and do it on my own but I realized that I had to when I started my therapy journey which was also in COVID COVID was such a crazy such a big moment wasn't it self-reflection I didn't know I was codependent before yeah and so when I started my therapy journey they're like my therapist and people in my lives at the time were like you're so codependent with your siblings and especially with my sister Huda because we grew up very close probably because of the immigrant background my parents always made me hang out with her all the time because they wanted me to be safe I'm the younger I was the baby in the family um so I was not even realizing it that I was always kind of like glued to her and my siblings that big that becomes your normal right and you don't even realize that that's unhealthy or that's a trait or that's a of course of course so I was always trying to push her to do things with me and I was always doing whatever she was doing with her with or without her consent I was like we're doing this together um so I think you know I was unaware and that therapy journey really helped me and then like slowly over time I realized for Kaylee to really be what I want it to be and what my vision is and even my team's vision for the brand our appetite is so big um we have to be independent so that was like a two-year journey of carving out and it's almost such a sort of band-aid to rip off because that's real growth that's like self-growth you know the business you want that to fly in its own way and take its own new path but it's exciting very and scary yes and scary and everything else but very exciting it's a big moment it's a big moment i want to talk about so So you launch in 2018.

19:39And like you say, the first few years, and I actually hadn't, I've completely overlooked this until you just said it, but it makes perfect sense. COVID did something, didn't it, in terms of the fragrance space and the layering. Layering becomes such a huge trend, a huge, huge trend. So what was difficult about launching and those first few years? What made it hard? Was it the kind of getting people to understand, getting people to be interested? What was it that was the challenge? To be honest, it was a lot of challenges. If I had to pick the top challenge, it was everybody followed the same equation because it worked.

20:19Right. So it was launch a commercial juice, meaning it's been there, done that a million times over. Get a big celebrity, put it on billboards, do mass sampling. And that's what would work. We didn't have the budget for that. Right. at all and it's also not what I wanted to do at all like that is not what I wanted to create a brand for you know so we didn't have budget the industry and the community was not ready even the retailers weren't ready because when we shared the concept they really only took a bet on us because you know we had proven ourselves already with Huda Beauty but had we presented it with no background I'm sure it'd be very difficult to go into you know more of a global launch the way we had at the time, which was a blessing and a curse because it was great.

21:04But then when we didn't perform, the pressure was super real. Like the expectations were very, very high from the very beginning. So yeah, the industry was not ready, but it's good because we didn't give up. And because of that, we were seen as the trendsetters who really pioneered the layering story and the concept and everything. So, you know, it was also a gift and a curse. Being early was hard, but because we didn't give up I think we just we set a lot of trends which is really exciting of course and now people will continue to look to you because that's kind of again because you've always got to be ready right um I think there's and you just touched on it then and when it comes to retailers because there's that pressure there's also that kind of misconception of people thinking from the outside looking in that the biggest challenge is to get into the retailer which of course it is you know and whether you decide to go down that straight d to c route for me um i can compare it to my business which is baby toiletries right i wanted to be on every high street here i wanted and we launched with boots and i wanted people to go onto the high street and be able to buy the baby lotion and buy the you know the hair product and kind of see that in the flesh it was really important to me to find a great retail partner however once you get it in the door that's great and that's a moment where we all get very excited and celebrate of course but keeping consistent with that retailer and securing that shelf space and making sure that you maximize those opportunities and really kind of continue building out that relationship that's kind of where the real work starts right absolutely for sure and I think a lot of people don't think about it including myself before well I didn't I'm You know, yeah, it's like you you work so hard to get into something or even just to launch the business.

22:56But the true test of time is like, will you be able to continue growing? Because you're either growing or dying. There is no in between. Yeah. So if you don't have a plan to like grow continuously, you're in trouble, you know, and you really have to think of that five year roadmap, 10 year roadmap, where it's your North Star, where do you want to be eventually? What is the end goal? If you don't think about that, you're behind. It's so you're so so right. because I think sometimes you can focus on the first phase of launch and of course there's an end goal but you there is so much that goes into what the world's going to see first actually when you secure that retailer space they're like this is amazing what's next absolutely and there comes that pressure your productivity your your own profitability like all these things that a lot of times we don't think of because we think of the exciting part but it's like the other the other part is super important it's it's almost as important as the creative part so you have to like force yourself to do that not as fun part and like focus on it and have many plans yes yeah I want to talk about your day-to-day role and how that looks because from where I'm sat in this seat it sounds like as most founders do you wear so many hats yes so how do you kind of what does what does a normal day in the life of Mona look like oh my god you're gonna tell me there isn't one I mean to be honest there is and there isn't because I'm a very very structured routine person like I have a routine I follow it almost to the t every single week you know so like my Monday through Friday is blocked out and you know occasionally I'll travel for work and everything But whenever I am in the office back home, like I have a routine and I follow it.

24:43So I split my time mainly through through a few different categories. Product development is definitely one of them. Marketing and content is one of them. And then overall management is another. Right now I'm spending a lot of time in recruitment because that's like a big part of what we're doing because of the carve out. we went from being 30 full-time dedicated employees this time last year to now by the end of august we're going to be 99 so we have to get to 140 by the end of the year so it's a lot of just team building you know people and culture building um but to be very honest i have a wonderful team and we divide and conquer together so i'm not i'm the opposite of a micromanager i empower everyone and we all work on things together i had an interview with emma greed and i find i love her she's great isn't she she's great yes and she was our first guest on this podcast and we were talking about recruiting and she actually says she's kind of always on when it comes to recruiting she always takes meetings she'll always meet somebody new and not because she's particularly recruiting for a particular role but actually she thinks and i thought it was such good advice it's always something to keep up because you might have lunch with somebody or you'll meet them for coffee or you know your interview and actually you might not need that person right now at this time but you're about your bottom dollar six months later you'll be like remember that girl that we met she was great let's reach out to her and see if she's free so I think it's quite a sort of interesting approach I never saw it like I kind of saw that side of the business like we will recruit when we need and that's a phase that we're going through but it's actually quite a good door to never close 100 i think people are your number one asset like more important than anything is people and that's your existing team but your future team that you might not know of yet so i think that's a great idea and i'm i think i'm pretty similar i network a lot i spend a lot of time on linkedin uh and even just going to events to try and meet people who might be you know part of our team one day or even not just industry friends um people you might want to collab with one day so I think people and again probably going back to my PR days I think that was the number one lesson I learned relationships are everything yeah people are everything without people you have nothing that is so true it's so true and there's no job like PR that will teach you that right?

27:15Absolutely. People are everything. So you we get to COVID you're kind of in this I suppose like we all were a little bit around 2020 right it was life-changing for so many different reasons for the good and for the bad for some people but it really gave us that time and that space to be able to think ahead and what happens when the world doesn't look like this and what are we going to do and how we're going to make every second count when did you start to realize that the dial was turning and people really ready for fragrance again I would definitely say that the turning point um was 2021 right and and it it built into 2022 like 2022 is the year where Sephora was like okay we're paying attention now we're gonna really like hold hands, take bigger risks with you, give you more space.

28:07Uh, but 2021 was a great year. Um, for us as a brand, we built our community a lot. There was a lot more content creators, but we also launched four fragrances that year. Um, and prior to that, we had only launched five over, you know, two and a half years. So, um, we finally were able to take more risks. Um, and I had a team for the first time because prior to that, I didn't really have my own dedicated team right that was solely focused I had one person in product development in the very beginning and then in the end of 2020 I got somebody in content creation and also um in marketing um who's with me today um but you know prior to that it was very difficult because everything was shared and um it just wasn't set up for success until like getting a small independent team it made a huge impact and how i wonder with content creation when it comes to fragrance is that quite is it something that's quite hard to execute because actually when it's makeup or it's skincare even it's quite visual so you're kind of trusting the the taste level as it were of that content creator to be able to say that's exactly what i want to smell like is that is that quite a challenge so hard yeah I just thought of that in real time and I'm like that's quite a hard thing to kind of articulate it was really hard actually and that was something that I would say was super naive before launching the brand because I didn't think about all of this I just thought you know because I started the development of Kali like the actual brand in january 2017 right and up until covid really um as a as a group we never experienced even a taste of resistance in the market so everything we'd launch would be a huge hit just always um so when we launched kli and it didn't really meet expectations i was shocked so i didn't even think about the fact that our community is going to be supportive but if you don't storytell right there's a there's going to be a limit people buy it once but they won't rebuy and not everybody will buy you won't buy it you know you won't grow outside your community and you can't rely on your only and only on your community to succeed you need people outside your community supporting to really be a brand of meaningful size to a partner like Sephora so um so yeah it was a learning and definitely I feel like the therapy helped me a lot so I didn't even realize through my therapy journey, which I talk about a lot because it did change my life so much.

30:43I had really stopped like expressing myself enough. And I even didn't understand sometimes how to express my emotions. So I did a lot of work. I even did chakra unblocking and like many different types of therapy. But I started to storytell again with my amazing team. They were like, what does this make you feel? What, you know, we were trying to describe the fragrance online because at that time in the biggest markets like the US, we were only online. So people couldn't even smell it in store. So through content, we had to be like, describing what a fragrance is, you know, what celebrity would you picture wearing this, you know, what what city does it take it to take you to, etc.

31:23So that was that was a big learning curve. And it's still not easy, even though we've been in the game now for almost seven years. It's the hardest part of the job is like explaining how things make you feel and making people understand that and relate to it because it is so personal so like if i spray one of these scents spray them spray them come on let's do it i mean oh my gosh yes so this is vanilla candy so to me i say i'm already you sold me the name the name does what it needs to do for me i'm in so to me this is like playful childhood memories and moments because it's got a lot of the playful candy like bubble gum jelly beans etc but it's not too it does that in the best way like it's not too like you thank you too sweet you know thank you but like to me it's it's playful and fun to someone else it might not be that you know like you just don't know it's so personal um and that's the hard part and nobody's wrong like there's no right or wrong it's so it's so relative isn't it right like this fragrance might make me feel sexy it might make you feel like you want to put it on your child, you know, your daughter.

32:30But again, there's no right or wrong answer. And I think it's so interesting you say that because Jo Malone has been a guest and she was saying that she's incredible, isn't she? She's amazing. She lives in Dubai. She lives in Dubai, it's right. And she was actually saying that all she says to her team constantly is tell me a story. And like that's her approach on everything. Every single person on her team is a great storyteller because that's where it has to come back to with what you guys do right and she says that she'll go when they set up a new store in a different location like wherever that is across the globe her team will go in with like pictures of joe and childhood things and different to really know that whoever's working in that store can tell the story in the correct way because it really does smells are so like nostalgic like this can really take you back to a different place and i love that oh that's amazing that's such a great idea it's it's it's good isn't it and i was like it makes perfect sense because it is all when it comes to scent and fragrance it is all storytelling absolutely and emotions yeah the two together it's like either it's going to be nostalgic and remind you of something or someone's story will resonate with you or instantly you feel a boost because of the you know the citrus or the energizing yes and their ginger spicy accords whatever it may be or it makes you feel sexy like you know it's just it's so emotional and nostalgic it's so good I keep smelling myself um I want to talk about scaling and scaling a business because fun part we yeah yeah and it's so interesting like when you're when you're starting you dream of scaling right when you're that scrappy startup and that's where you are you dream to the point where you know growth is in sight one thing that I feel like is unanimous with all founders when it gets to that point of growth and managing the momentum without losing control is one of the biggest challenges I think all founders face or you get it's a kind of a position that nobody wants to feel because as much as or sometimes you could be ready to give that control over because you're ready to sit in the place that makes you feel happy as your business and you know and you've been part of this via many businesses now were there any unexpected hurdles that you face as your business scaled oh my god so many and through all lives you know um through huda beauty i would say the biggest hurdle was when we first got investors and we were super small as a team at that time which does remind me so much of where we are right now with KLE, which scares me sometimes, but have so many learnings to reflect on.

35:22We were encouraged to grow the team super quickly, to build up the market teams. And I think we did it too fast, but especially at a senior level, you know, and we didn't onboard people properly. We didn't have the North Star very clearly defined. We didn't have our values clearly defined. We didn't have KPIs clearly defined like it was it was um very rushed and again i'm taking all those learnings i always reflect i always make notes and i always try to like think critically of myself and whoever it may be to learn from but i'm hoping not to repeat those mistakes but that is one of the worst things that can happen when you scale is like not knowing where you want to go and that's why i taught i tell everyone think of your five-year goal your 10-year goal and your end goal right Because if you're not thinking about it, you're behind.

36:11You're really behind. You know, a year passes before you can like blink, right? Like before you know it, it's going to be 2028. Because you're always ahead, aren't you? It takes two years sometimes to launch a product. So, you know, think about the future. Think about your values. Define them super well and tell everyone. It's funny. Your instant reaction was like, it's stressful. but it it on the outside it appears like such an exciting time of course it is because you're you're aware that your business has legs to scale and to be able to grow so of course it's exciting but was there ever a time that you felt it was sort of hard to protect both the product quality and the team with new heads and new people that kind of wasn't there at the brand's conception Yeah, I mean, always, to be honest, in the past, but even now, it's something that is definitely very hard.

37:11And it's, it's my job, it's all the leadership's job to ensure to protect that. So it's, it's a battle, you know, and sometimes people will grow with you. Sometimes people don't want to grow with the company. And that's difficult. And we did see that a lot. previously, you know, some people didn't want to keep up with the change. And you have to, when you're part of a fast growing business, you have to grow. First of all, like I have to grow. But then you need your team to also grow because it's very demotivating when people aren't ready to get with it and be excited about it. But at the same time, you have to hold on to, you know, the story, the brand values, the brand details, and protect it with everything you can just by being very detailed yourself you know so um it's definitely a very hard part of the job was there a particular thing that you felt that you really needed to kind of I suppose where you needed that growth was there a particular thing that you felt actually I need to move with this and maybe I'm not thinking about x or oh yeah all the time yeah I mean especially in the past like especially if I rewind you know seven eight years ago.

38:25I'd say that was the hardest time ever. That's when my role in the company would literally change every three to six months because we would start recruiting people. Because if I rewind eight years ago, I was the head of PR influencer, finance, accounting, legal, tech, all these things. Everything that nobody else wanted to do in the family, I would do so it was hard you're like me you're like me as a sibling well I like I'm a problem solver like I love solving problems and when people say I just don't give up I don't know if I'm good at it or I'm just super relentless like I hate giving up on things like to me that's like torture when I have to give up on something so you know when there's a will there's a way um so that's when I had to grow because when we ended up hiring heads of departments for every single area.

39:21I was like, what do I do now? You know, what am I supposed to do? And that's where you have to grow. Yes. Because you're no longer focusing on what's right in front of you. You have to grow as a person. And I think that was great timing because that's when it was when we started working on the development of KLE and then shortly after KLE launched. And I think I should have grown faster. You know, I wish I thought of these questions back then, you know, so I would have had a better plan um but everything happens for a reason oh it does yeah what do you think is your favorite role like you know you I feel like you have as I said before you've won all the hats which I love what what do you think what do you think you do best and what do you love the most and they might be two different things but what what do you think they would be I mean what I love the most um is creating i love creating product i do love creating content i wish i had more time for it but i love product development and i love people so i love uh working with the people and culture team and just trying to think of initiatives to benefit the team yeah and make them feel important to make them feel um to figure out their growth paths too how to give back to them so and even being the ambassador to the brand like I love going to events and meeting people like I'm a people person you know I and that's probably one other reason why people told me to get into PR is because naturally like I don't think of it as a job when I meet people like I love meeting people so being the ambassador focusing on product development because I'm a product junkie I love perfume I love products in general but I love perfume so I could play and and try to think of innovative ideas all day it doesn't it doesn't feel like work to me so those are my favorite things to do and that is a big focus of what I'm doing now but the harder part right now is just like getting the team on boarded and the recruitment side it's just it's not that I don't like doing it it's time consuming yeah I just I just don't have a lot of time right now so that's the hurdle but I think hopefully by the end of the year we'll get stabilized and then I'll focus more on like the product development the content yeah it's a big phase it's a big phase and you know you have to it has to happen so it's kind of like you say you've got that period of time that you know this is going to be the priority yeah and then you can get back to doing what you love we're putting it out there into the universe now um I want to do our rocket round now okay and I do this of each of our guests and they are basically uh it's supposed to be a quick fire round okay so short answers yeah we try we try um the first question is what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business definitely an obsession like that is super important if you're not obsessed you're not going to go very far and you're probably going to give up too soon um so is that it should i say more because i ramble a lot so no that's fine that's fine if I had to pick one thing obsession yeah I love that and it's so true like we always say here the days are going to be long the months the weeks they can be hard and if you're not obsessed and you don't love it to the core and also most businesses fail let's be honest the percentage of businesses that actually don't live past two years three years five years super high majority right yeah I think it's like 85 90 percent I think something like that um so if you were not obsessed with that you're gonna really regret putting all that time and energy but if you were if you were obsessed with that even if it doesn't go anywhere you're like I loved it and I gave it everything exactly yeah absolutely that when did you first realize that you truly launched I still feel like I haven't oh girl let me tell you you have she says with an army of perfume um um I don't know I think I think more recently um you know we got a Fifi award I don't know if you follow the fragrance foundation awards so we've been nominated many years um and every year we're like oh we hope we win but we haven't so this was the first year we actually took a price home for the one I sprayed you with and I see why and I'm not just saying it's filled the room oh my gosh everyone let the crew are like yes nodding it's really congratulations Thank you so much.

43:40That was really exciting. So that will do it. That will do it. There we go. Because it's an industry and it's a very challenging board. And it was the US one too where the competition is crazy. And like you say, you're doing it because it's a passion and you know how good the product is. But those sort of moments of like those gold star moments are great to have. They are. After the work and everything that goes into it. No, that was great. Congratulations. Thank you. What is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? I know you're a routine girl I am I pray love yeah I'm a very spiritual person so I pray first thing in the morning last thing at night I do on my phone as well which I shouldn't so I'm a bit of a phone addict but um but I'm a very spiritual and I love I love praying love love that thank you what's one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to I would say probably like not leaning into who I am being very emotional having a lot of empathy I think that that's your superpower especially as a woman and I think too many women are told that too often of like try to be more masculine almost you know which I don't think is a bad thing there's I think it's important to have both energies you know but balance is very important so So I think a lot of female entrepreneurs, and I'm sure you probably have the same pressure of like, hide your feminine energy, which you shouldn't, you know, and I did that for a long time.

45:07And now I don't at all. It's everywhere. Yes, I love that. I love that. You're so right. You're sort of conditioned to think we need to be like bossing it all the time in our power suits. Absolutely. And actually, Or just like not being not having enough empathy. And I think that's actually a gift. And especially in leadership, I think that when you're too. robotic with your people and you don't have compassion and empathy like that's just part of the past emotion doesn't have to be a negative exactly yeah I completely agree what's one skill that you'd love to learn oh my gosh there's a lot um but if I had to pick one it would either be like gardening because I want to learn more about flowers because of fragrances or cooking I'm a terrible cook and I really admire people who cook well you even love it or you don't know I do think that I love it I'm just really bad at it I used to be really good at it when I lived in America I actually worked in a restaurant for four years but um should you like cooking classes I should me time I should you know to switch off I would love to do that there you go I should I mean when you've got a free next year exactly not this year babe you're onboarding this year um what is one thing you wish that someone had told you before you started your business think of the five-year 10-year plan and the end goal um and do it independently like don't get into partnerships too much yes I mean sometimes it works but more than often it doesn't and um you know it really depends on like whose vision you're gonna follow because more than likely if it's a co-founder relationship you have to jointly agree on things and that never works out long term you know either somebody has to take the back seat and allow one person to have more of the vision part of it or someone's frustrated so it's challenging so i think do it independently think of your five-year ten-year and end goal roadmap what do you want to do and really think of it from a meaningful perspective like why are you doing this yeah what's your why yeah your why is so so important um what would be the dream collab for your brand oh my gosh oh there's so many I love I love so many brands oh my god well we were saying that we love that you know like now that brands are doing like quite unlikely collabs they are it's so cool like like powerhouses coming together and I love to see it I mean if I had to pick one it might be I don't want to sound like cliche but I do love Louis Vuitton oh yeah um I've always like imagined are like like our perfume bottles on their like bag or something oh my gosh yes it's part of lvmh and so is sephora so you never know maybe i'll put that out oh i can see it i can see it but i love their quality like as a brand i think their quality their legacy like being able to have a brand for like 100 plus years and to keep it growing and keep the brand value strong and alive that's amazing so i'd love to do something with them um that's one oh i could see it thank you i could see it um and then lastly if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be i love this question oh so many if i had to pick one it would probably be oprah i love her she's like such an amazing uh role model to so many of us but i think she's just such an extraordinary woman i think especially for her time you know she was so ahead of her time oh completely like she was disruptive you know um never took any you know excuses for anything you know she created her own path even though she didn't have to and at that time it would be very easy to blame society for like becoming complacent but she was so ahead of her time and so disruptive and she pioneered for for everyone you know so she's amazing you're She opened the door.

49:06When you actually think about it in that space, she opened the door for so many women. Especially minority women. Yeah. You know, like she is the example. Yeah. No excuses. She's incredible. Exactly. I would just love, do you know what I would love to like sit and have like a glass of wine with Oprah? She's got some stories, hasn't she? I'm sure. And she's very generous with her time and her knowledge and her stories. But I would love to kind of have an off the record chat with her. I would die for that, honestly. Let's put it into the universe. Let's do it together. if you're listening Oprah um and then I get every guest to leave a tip for a listener sort of one piece of tangible advice that say somebody's listening now and they love fragrance and it's their dream to launch a fragrance brand or a beauty brand what would what would one tip if you could say this is what you should do what would that be I would say just do it don't overthink it like a lot of people overthink things way too much like just start something and be okay with failure you know maybe you launch it and maybe you close it down and then you launch something bigger eventually but like too many people just don't try um so just do it experiment and be okay with it not working out and that's you know of course you have to be calculated taking calculated risks like you don't want to spend your whole life savings on something but if you can't afford to produce minimum quantities experiment just trial something you never know what it could lead to yes you know my dad always says this saying al haraka baraka in arabic that means with movement comes blessings and it's so true it's like i love you just have to move and um actually remember one book that i read before i quit my job it was um i forget the guy's name i think it robert kiyosaki the the author of rich dad poor dad yes yeah i think that's his name um but he wrote a book about what to read before you quit the lessons learned before you quit your job and one of the lessons was about bill gates and microsoft and he was saying how one of the biggest mistakes people make is waiting for things to be perfect but with bill gates and microsoft he launched microsoft windows knowing there were so many bugs so many issues but he kept sending updates every however often nothing will ever be perfect just do it so true that is great advice thank you great advice and lastly I like to leave it on a light note and I well you've touched this with yourself you said you'd love to learn to cook um I love food you're gonna regret that now no pressure um I like to end by knowing how everybody spends their lunch hour so we talk about ladies who launch but when it comes to ladies who lunch how do you spend your lunch hour where are you and what are you eating oh no i'm very naughty i'd be naughty it's usually doing a working lunch um usually multitasking usually checking messages getting back to people um occasionally i get to have lunch with my dad because he comes to the office every day um so i drag him to work um so that's that's really fun when i'm able to do that but um lately just because this year has been so crazy in the past few years i'm multitasking yeah but hopefully that will change next year and hopefully I can just relax a bit and enjoy.

52:26You'll be happy to know that every time I ask this question, nine times out of 10, people say a lunch hour. What's one of those? It's like 15 minutes. And what are you grabbing? What's the first thing? Like if I was your assistant and I was like, I'm going to order her lunch now. What am I ordering? I try to eat clean. It's usually just vegetables with chicken i like it and a double espresso protein and caffeine exactly always a winner um thank you so much thank you but i gotta switch to your matcha oh yes yes there you go i'm gonna send you with some matcha um i've absolutely loved talking to you and loved getting to know more about your journey and thank you it is so inspiring to watch on from the outside thank you so much you have really built an empire thank you do i get a spray with more perfume now that we're I think everyone wants to.

53:19You can make this room smell a lot better. Thank you so much. Thank you. Love that.

53:28Don't forget to follow us on Apple, on Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you don't miss out because next time we're going to be joined by another incredible lady who launched. If like me you're a watcher then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.

53:49Thank you.