Ep 36: From The Ordinary to Extraordinary: Nicola Kilner’s Journey Building a $3.6 Billion Beauty Empire

0:11When I think of the ordinary, I think of minimal yet high performing products, which is true to the story behind the brand. Nicola Kilner shares with us the real highs and the lowest of lows of what it's taken to co-found a 3.6 billion dollar company. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Welcome to Ladies Who Launch. Thanks Rochelle. Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to sit down and talk to you. I've got so much to ask you. but I always like to start with early life because I think it's so important and I think it really plays such a big part in shaping us who we are how we handle situations later down the line so tell us a little bit about how that looked to you where did you grow up who was about so I was born in Sheffield so a good northern upbringing and grew up with my mum dad I've got an older sister she's three years older than me and actually just had like you know a very happy peaceful kind of uh childhood my mum was a stay-at-home mum so I feel like she was always around and you know every school trip every pickup like you know mum was always there which I just loved and my dad was a radio DJ it's always quite a fun job and and yeah so like life was all kind of pretty happy and you know as I got to my late teens like my my dad was always a drinker but like never to a problem but obviously as we got older that became an issue and he ended up passing away from that but I think like in the years building up to that he lost his job which is kind of like related to obviously his health and what was happening but I think seeing how I don't know like when you see someone lose their job and I'm like wow like someone's purpose was taken away from them without them in control yeah and I think that really like instilled in me like wanting to be in control of like my life and I think that's something that really like I'm a control freak like I like to be in control of all aspects I recognize that real recognize is real I say I know it's and it's kind of it's a hard thing isn't it because you don't being a control freak is a wonderful thing in some ways but also the thing that you kind of want to let a little bit of that go it's hard my husband all the time he's like just let me do something and I'm like no I just want to do it all you're a hard person to surprise yeah he's like I'll plan the next holiday and I'm like no you can't I'll do it and but you know like you know probably what what led to part of that I think was just seeing someone else maybe not having the control right and I feel like as well I grew up where I feel like when my dad's job like there was lots of exciting it's like glamorous there's lots of like exciting things but we also didn't always have surplus money and that was partly you know because mum was a stay at home mom and just like the other sacrifices you make so again I think I was also financially motivated in terms of like I want freedom in life like I never want to rely on a man or even a job like I don't want to rely on anyone I just want to be self-sufficient and again it comes down to the control of like if I want to buy a new dress a new top I want to go on holiday like I always want the ability to do what I want to do you know I think the number one goal in life for me was always freedom like freedom of choice and I think a lot of that comes from like financial freedom and actually just the power of when you wake up in the morning like are you the one deciding what you can do um you know we were just talking about schools before this like I find that hard I'm like the school's in charge of my children yeah and I actually can't control that but I am yeah in control for want of a better phrase of my children because they're my responsibility but that's also something that I can't control when you want to just go away and then I'm like oh They're at school Monday to Friday.

3:54So yes, I think I've always just been driven by really wanting freedom. But I feel, you know, growing up just with a very loving family. And you know, growing up in the north, lots of fresh air, countryside, kind people. And so yeah, it was a happy time. And how did the kind of knowing that you wanted freedom and seeing that around you and knowing that how important financial freedom was to you how did that manifest itself in where where you were choosing to go how did you have kind of was you aware of the path you wanted to make yeah well like you know I guess you realize young that when you don't have a talent in terms of singing or sports or any of those other paths and I was like actually business is probably the the best avenue and even from an early age you know I used to love watching Dragon's Den I used to love like asking for like autobiographies on on different kind of business people because I think again to me business was all about control in terms of you can make decisions you can kind of own it you can kind of be in charge step into your power yeah so I always knew that was kind of the avenue but I never knew you know was it skincare was it beauty I never kind of knew which field it would be in and I also never knew when it would happen and I kind of was um so when I did my A-levels and then obviously kind of figuring out what to do next and obviously all my friends were going to uni I was like I want to go to uni I want to like move cities you know go party kind of like do do that stuff so I went to Nottingham Trent and I studied business management but and it was an amazing course I found so it's business management in company so the first year was a normal year at uni which was great because everyone's just having fun you know all you have to do is pass and then when it got to year two and year three we were sponsored by blue chip companies so there was only 40 of us on the course so then you would either go to you know boots rolls royce tesco's barclays hsbc one of these types of companies and then they would sponsor you for the next two years so you would effectively do a five-month placement and then you would go to university for a month but they would you know whereas normally at university you do like 10 hours of lectures a week you would do intense lectures you'd be there like nine till six every day you would do your exam and then you would go back to a new role within within the company it's like that's like the dream yeah so within two years at boots so like when I graduated after my three years I'd done four different roles at boots and you know one of those includes managing a store which you know when you're 19 and you're put into manage your store where there's people double your age who have been there for like 20 years and they do not want the you know graduate who's just come in to try and manage them and tell them what to do like you really learn a lot about kind of leadership resilience because it's almost giving that's quite a unique course because it's almost giving you experience at the same time as having a qualification which is kind of is always it's a little bit chicken and egg isn't it someone can have all the qualifications in the world but the experience of actually sitting in that role is sometimes what sways, you know, who gets that employment, you know.

7:04Yeah, without a doubt. And it was, I mean, you know, we got a salary, they paid our tuition fees. Like I felt like I lucked out in just getting the best course. And then each time we studied a different module. So when we were studying, you know, the international business, we would get a chance to work in the international department at Boots. So you'd actually have this real case study to kind of apply to everything you were learning. And again, I think I always kind of felt like actually before starting anything you have to learn and you have to kind of know some stuff and and actually going to a corporate is a really good way to do that because you do learn a lot you learn many good things you know you also learn their challenges like what makes them slow kind of where they struggle and so then when I graduated I stayed on at Boots and then I again did a did a role where I was assistant buyer on their beauty area where they were just taking out Ruby Millie they're bringing in lots of new brands and I think they my style is like I like to think and I'm many people are but like I'm very kind collaborative I just like making things work and and I think at that time you know going back this is obviously 15 years ago buying was much more tougher I think for a long time buying had been around it's all about cost price negotiation it's all about kind of who can win the most you know I remember going on a negotiation course and one of the things they told us was if the you know the supplier was overweight find a meeting room far away walk them up the stairs get them really out of breath sit them down and like go in with your cost price stop how crazy is that what so and like so I was listening to these things like that's not human that's just not ethical and and again like I think I'd also seen you know part of if you treat new brands it's difficult like I think when you're a buyer because new brands are obviously so keen to get into a retailer it's all you need and from that sense they'll often say yes to all of the retailers demands like the retail is the one with all the power but if you put a brand in on terrible terms they're going to be out six months later because they don't have any money left to actually they can't flow it yeah promoting in pr and there goes their cash flow there goes everything that's going to make those opportunities come to life so i think i'd kind of had this let's just try and work with friends and actually collaborate um and I remember at the time a really nice like the head of trading for the department he was like I you know I see because I was like I don't think bang's for me like I think I'd rather go work in a brand team than kind of be in these types of conditions and he was like I think there's a future for like brand relationships where you're a buyer but actually you are almost on their side and you're trying to make them that's how we're going to get new brands in and really work and so I was really fortunate because I kind of already showed my passion for these skills that they actually then created a new role for me which was to be their buyer for innovation which was all around just finding new brands around the world and really hand-holding them into Boots and making sure that actually they like I felt like I worked just as much for the brand as I did for Boots because you know I would make sure obviously you know Boots had the deal but I would be working with them on their PR agencies like how to make the plan how to actually make the product seller boots because I wanted them to be a success and make the most of the opportunity that they've been given and so we did a program called latest finds where the brands would come in and they'd only have 12 weeks to prove their success so they'd have 12 weeks to get the sales and then if the sales worked they would then get a permanent listing and so I you know I thoroughly enjoyed it and I feel like I met so many incredible entrepreneurs in that time and one of them was Brandon so Brandon was with his previous beauty company called Indeed Labs and I remember you know from the the second I met him like his energy was just off the charts you know when like you see you look at your inbox and there's like always an email like you're open first like as soon as I saw his name I'd be like open like his energy his passion and and again like his passion for science so like I knew like any product whatever he came up with I would launch because like I just knew there was so much going into it and behind it so we did a couple of launches for indeed so we launched nanoblur and we launched snox in and and they were just incredibly successful and then overnight he suddenly just left indeed and i was you know you feel heartbroken yeah you're my and you've built that relationship and at that time that's what's really sort of making work fun yeah i'm like and also even just the numbers like anything brandon launched like was successful like it got the listing because it was so good and but anyway around this time you know I was in my early 20s and I was thinking you know I feel like I've learned a lot now but maybe it's the time where I would actually like to start my own thing so I which is which is we should like talk about this because at this time you're like what 23 yeah like it's you're so kind of you've entered this world but you're still really in your infancy right of building those relationships and it's so I love this about you because it's such a for want of a better phrase like a ballsy move to say I've you know yeah I'm in my early 20s but I feel like I've got I've learned enough here to sort of take this and find my own way yeah it's impressive I'm sure there were people around you that were sort of feeling you know you've got this you know you've qualified you've got this amazing job you've yeah you're sort of you've hit the ground running was there a push back from anyone around you at that time probably only my mum who was more just nervous around like are you sure you want to give up your job like you know you've got a good chance here but I'm very much like the glass is half full like so it never felt scary or you know back then I was still living at home it was just me like you know it didn't feel like I had anything to risk um and again everything's good in hindsight but like one thing that I am actually so grateful for is that in my 20s I really did take the risk and you know worked all the hours yeah because now I'm in my 30s and I have my children and I have my family and I feel like yeah I you know every day like out of the 10 drop off and pickups a week like I'm at nine of them like and I get to now have all of that freedom of time because I did do it in my 20s because you took all those risks yeah of course I know people I talk to people now and you know it's so much older to take a risk like if you have a mortgage you have family you have kids like you have to make different decisions but yeah if you are in your early 20s and you do have this feeling of like wanting to be an entrepreneur or just take a risk again depending on your circumstances but you know if you have got family or someone you could go and live with and have less risk like do it like now's your time and if it doesn't work out like you can go back to the corporate world like it will always be there to kind of go and go and find um so yeah so I sent an email to Brandon to say like you know next time because he lived in Toronto so I was like next time you're in London like I'd really like to meet you I have an idea like I want to kind of talk to you about it so then he was next over you know within a couple of weeks and so I told him my idea which was almost like a trip advisor for beauty okay because I worked in beauty and I found like everyone's like well what's the best mascara what's the best you know foundation you'd become sort of that trusted voice yeah and I thought there's actually nothing really out there you know if you book a rest you know you go on trip advisor like in other fields like there's a really good ranking and review system but it doesn't really exist so much in beauty so you were sort of thinking of bringing your skills to beauty but into the tech space almost yeah but effectively just get like a community of like reviews ratings and stuff so you could see that so I told him my idea and he was like I love it like can I do it with you and then do you want to do Desiem with me like I'm going to start Desiem so I was like perfect and so that's how it all started but effectively as we did both and we you know beauty wise which was the the beauty review website we got the technology built for the website but it got quite complex because unlike TripAdvisor where every restaurant and hotel only has one name actually in the world of beauty the same product can have a different name in a different market there's different versions all the time so it just got more complex but at the same time as doing Decium we actually had quite a lot of early success with some of the first brands so Decium's from the latin word for the number 10 and it was all about building 10 brands at once so this was the original vision so Decium's the parent company that still exists today that creates many brands including the ordinary and I think because so Brendan and I'd actually had two beauty businesses before Decian and I think you know a lot of the learnings he'd had was actually this passion to really bring everything in house and and I'd obviously also seen this other side of what he was saying from a lot of the companies I worked with where you know a lot of beauty brands and it's not to say this is wrong this was just our different approach but you know a lot of beauty entrepreneurs like everything's just outsourced they get the PR agency they get the third party manufacturer they get the formulator from the lab and they get the design agency and you know when you're outsourcing everything you kind of miss that that kind of special thing of actually just a team having everybody under one room so brand which I suppose a lot of people do that up front because well because it's cost effective right if you can sort of have somebody on a retainer for a little bit or you could you know that that setup would help those small businesses up front exactly it's not cheap to kind of create those things hire all of those people but Brandon was really like let's create the ecosystem let's bring everything in house and let's build 10 brands at once because actually if we're flying to Australia to meet a buyer let's meet 10 buyers and actually do 10 different categories and let's get kind of efficiencies that way so that was and this must have been such an exciting time like given your experience like what you've learned what you know what your passions are you know you've met the guy that you love working with with you're gutted when he leaves and you know you kind of don't have that dynamic anymore at this time like how are you feeling in this moment are you just like wow the world is our oyster here yeah like I've always felt very just lucky in life that and you know and I know like you you kind of create your own opportunities but I also just feel like I looked out that everything aligned and kind of I met the right people and the right things happened at the right time and and those kind of opportunities arose so we started Decium in 2013 and and obviously the first couple of launches we did we launched at Boots and again so what would normally be a challenge for new brands I had all the relationships and again because I you know I always think of myself like I was so on both sides of like okay this has to work and be a win for Boots but this has to work and be a win for us.

18:08And that's kind of been your USP from the start hasn't it really you know that even when you're at Boots you were still on the side of the brand at the same time. And I mean the only way to create sustainable success is for it to be winning for both sides like if if one side's hurting too much it's never going to be a sustainable business relationship and so we did our first few launches and so it's interesting So most of the brands that we started with don't really exist anymore today. Right. So we had Fountain, which was a liquid supplement brand, which I think was an incredible brand. And I actually think if we launched it today, I think it'd be really successful.

18:42Oh, wouldn't it? But I think it was kind of a bit ahead of its time. We had the chemistry brand, which had like in the most incredible like hand creams, body care. We had a brand called Grow Gorgeous, which we actually sold to the Huck Group. So that brand was around 18 months old and we sold it to the Huck Group for 9 million pounds. and that actually really helped fund the business to kind of grow which again is difficult when you have suddenly you know we had a hair growth serum that really was selling so well and it's difficult when you're like then get approached around selling it but you're like okay this actually is the brand that's really working yes if we sell it we could get money and then you know hopefully create more brands and helping hold everything else up exactly further so we had lots of different brands but I think what made Destin so special were the people and the team and like I look back and again like feels like we looked out like we won the lottery and and you know one thing I think with any startups like you you go through people because you have to find the right people to fit and I think one of the things we learned early on which also was partly because we didn't have that much money but we couldn't really hire experience and the odd time that we did really pay for someone experienced it never actually worked so we found that actually in the startup days just getting people like straight out school straight out university one because it's you know people start on lower salaries yeah but actually everyone was so open-minded because no one had preconceived ideas about the way things should be yeah because experience is interesting you know destiny was now 1500 people and we couldn't have scaled it without bringing in experience but it has to come at the right point of business because in the early days you know you just need the people who will wear 10 different hats you know we were we'd be meeting retailers in the day then we'd be in the factory making the products at night helping them like make the order and so you need the people who just can adjust like your agility is everything in those early days.

20:36And I suppose understanding that vision like you say if people have been in a certain role for years and it's like sort of learnt behaviour if you're setting up this whole ecosystem and you know how you want this to work it's that agility and people really adapt into to the way you're doing this yeah and and I say this to this team it's the naivety too because now sometimes like you know we'll come up with an idea and someone will say oh well we can't do this because of this and I'm like oh that makes sense but back then you don't you don't know the things that you're going to be stopped for you're just like great idea let's do it and like we'll just find a way so actually that naivety is actually like a real big advantage big sweet spot startup I think of running and working on one brand and the thought of nine more alongside it is a really overwhelming idea.

21:26So is it hard to kind of give everything equal focus? because I think you know that on a on a small scale I have one brand one I suppose different businesses and different parts and avenues in what I do but I in doing so I know that it's really hard for everything to shine at once and something will always pull focus was that was that quite a hard thing to get right in that kind of ecosystem and that structure of everything having everyone's attention so before the ordinary it was quite it felt easy enough because actually all the brands were on a similar scale right and actually it was just everyone like the energy was unreal like everyone was just so hyper engaged and like you know you'd have a design meeting and and I think what was great about having so many different brands was like there was always a place for every idea right like someone to come up with an idea and you're that brand that fits that brand and and again then like consumers also started to like link the brand so the people who loved scm then would like love the other brand and they would trust that we had the same values even if it was a different proposition of what it was doing so there were just so many benefits to doing it and um and it did like you know back to the brandon's example like it made it great like if i was flying to australia i would meet different retailers for different brands different buyers maximizing every opportunity yeah and actually you know bringing everything in house like we couldn't have afforded our own manufacturing our own labs if we only had one brand but because we had multiple brands well effectively each brand would pay 10 of that person's salary so you think about how much a PR person is you might oh we can't afford that but actually each brand could afford 10 of it so it just made it possible really to do more that's so interesting I've never actually thought of it like that yeah and it just it really did work so the only time it stopped working was when we launched the ordinary and so the ordinary was our 11th brand to launch so it's a good job we didn't stop at 10 because we just had to keep going and but it's interesting with the ordinary because we you know I always think the ordinary was probably subconsciously the result of everything we had learned before then so that's so we'd obviously started in 2013 and the ordinary launched at the end of 2016 right so we'd had three and a half years of different brand launches um you know working with different retailers like different journalists we had um a following which was you know felt big at the time although it was small and at this point was anything not working any of those brands were you like oh this is it didn't feel like it at the time right but then the ordering became so big that it almost then made like everything before just seemed tiny right but oh no at the time we we like we were like we are we're winning a lot in the ground yeah yeah you know reviews were great sales were great like everything was good but the the ordinary was just this kind of like phenomenon which kind of blew everything else out out the water um but you see the ordinary launched we never well I guess you you can't really plan in again I think it's when we people talk about like doing your consumer research and Brandon always used to say this like until the products on the shelf and like the consumers prepared to spend their 20 pounds it doesn't matter what they say in you know a consumer panel because everyone's like oh I like this I don't like the smell I deliver but actually like until you launch like that's when you get the real data so the ordinary was born from a concept of um so we had NEOD which uh for anyone who's like skincare enthusiasts like NEOD for us was this next generation super high tech like if you had your own lab and you went in and made skincare neod would be it because you're like what's new like i want all of it like highest concentrations just like almost like professional level yeah but like it doesn't i don't care what it smells like what it looks like what it feels like i just want like the best of everything so for us like we're like neod is really like groundbreaking next next level and i remember we saw like you know we picked up a magazine and we saw it next to a vitamin c product which was like a 30 year old technology but a very established brand you know shouting about their new like vitamin c cream and we're like gosh like this is so frustrating that the consumer doesn't see that that isn't new that's been around forever and we felt like new york was just so good that like it was kind of frustrating to compare but we said actually those ingredients like they are very good ingredients um and actually you know the the comparison we use because people i think as consumers we get so used to thinking that actually price point must mean efficacy that's the more i pay the better it must be if i'm on the shelf oh that one well that's you know that's the most expensive so i reckon that's the best it's what we're like programmed to believe but i always say if you had a headache and you went into to a pharmacy and saw paracetamol which we know would cost like a pound two pounds or you saw a brand new headache painkiller for 100 pounds which is you know only been around for the last couple of years it's new studies you'd probably be like no i'm gonna stick with paracetamol it's safe it's effective like i know it's gonna work like we actually don't need anything else because like the the solution is there yeah so effectively the concept then for the ordering was like let's do the same for skincare because actually consumers don't understand there's some knowledge of like you know retinols and hyaluronic acid but really and if you go back 10 years ago like the level of skincare ingredient knowledge was so much less than it is today something like niacinamide like consumers didn't know so we were like let's take all of those ingredients that have been around for a long time but are so safe they're so effective like they really are proven to work just like paracetamol aspirin ibuprofen like healthcare have done a really good job of transparency and consumers understanding the right ingredients the right price points but also what what's a fair price to really pay for that like if you went into a shop and you saw paracetamol at 30 pounds i'm not paying that like i know this works um so health care is really like one of that so we're like actually that needs to be applied to skin care and so one that people can understand the odd that actually they this is all new technologies but also just to give people a choice because like you know the reality is today like good skincare is accessible like most people should be able to afford quality skincare and I think too often we still you know we all see like an advert and we get excited about a product and and often like they do under deliver whereas I think with the ordinary people were actually amazed by the results but I also think the thing that made the well there are many factors I think that went into the ordinary success but because we'd had these brands before I think you know with brendan with deciem like we had a such good relationship with the journalists and again like when we launched in 2016 you know social media was around but it wasn't the influencer type feel that it is today like journalists really were still kind of the trusted source of you know authority and knowledge and still that kind of expert voice that's who you kind of went to you know sunday time style like people were looking in there for really for their advice and because they knew they'd met Brandon and we had Prudvi our chief scientific officer and like Brandon and Prudvi are like geniuses you know when you meet someone and like I mean the level of like science and understanding and you know I remember Brandon always saying to me like we have to like anyone that creates a skincare brand like if you're not understanding the science what are you doing because there are so many big players out there the only chance you have of being better than them as understanding the actives the science how it works better than them and because otherwise I mean they they have way more money they're going to be way bigger than us like we had to have that we have to have the agility and so I think because the journalists knew we had the credibility on the science they were like wow these products are like you know four pounds five pounds six pounds like they really do work and and then the ordinary really just grew from like word of mouth like it was such an organic journey yeah and then because we never had stock so we couldn't really do marketing if we wanted to for the first few years was enough stock for press boxes we were manufacturing ourselves and you know we we never really knew what the demand was because each time we would up production it would sell out by the time it even kind of hit the shelves again um and it's interesting i feel like the story goes no no i'm i'm honestly i'm all ears um but you see with the ordinary the other thing that was interesting was when we we pitched it to a couple of retailers and two of our biggest partners in the world now for the ordinary but at the time they both said no to listing the brand because they were like it's too complicated consumers won't understand it you know you need to rebrand this is like anti-aging serum your boxes are too white they're gonna get dirty on the shelf it won't turn out you need more coloring which is so interesting because i think when i think of the ordinary i think that you really simplify it I feel like I know where I am it which is so interesting that that would be confusing you see well I think a couple of things so actually one thing from the packaging I mean like I find if I go into Sephora the the ordinary is like sea of white it's so calming because everything's like this multi-colored rainbow exactly that that actually I think like that is kind of simplified and you know the the aesthetic plays a big part because you know like the one brand I've always just thought does incredibly well is like Aesop like you know like the way it looks is so important yeah and I think you know the ordinary is interesting because some people are like oh it's like very minimalist but I'm like that design like fits anyone's bathroom like whether you're male female like whatever the design is like you're proud to have it out so like the design was like a really big part of it but then it's interesting because you know especially in the early days I mean if you went back to a version of our website in 2016 2017 you needed a science degree to really and you know the beginning like part of our um brandon always used to have this amazing saying which was to have to get a million people to like you you first need a thousand people to love you so it's always like let's just find our niche because actually if you get a niche to love you eventually the you know the masses tend to follow and how and what was your approach with that how was what was your kind of strategy for kind of getting eyes and ears on the ordinary at that point how are you getting that thousand to love you because as soon as they had the product they loved you but how were you targeting the right customer so the science community just took hold of it and you know this was kind of like on reddit um and people were just creating these forums to talk about the products um and i remember on there's a an amazing lady joanne from spain who started this chat room like the ordinary chat room on Facebook I mean that group now has over 200 ,000 members in nothing to do with us but I remember quite quickly you know the brand was only a few months old and I think it was like 50 ,000 people in this Facebook group and this is nothing it wasn't it wasn't being controlled entirely independent and you would go on there and like I mean there was posts like every 10 minutes like 90 comments of people just almost like creating like recommendations and regimes for each other because what I think the ordinary did that wasn't there before was actually allowed the conversation to happen because I think skincare pre the ordinary products were very much they were named much more like objectively you know miracle this or yes everything was kind of fluffy that it was almost difficult to talk about whereas when the ordinary came in it was like well I'm using this and my 10 % I'm using the 1 % this I'm using as a lay like people suddenly were almost like coming up with their own prescriptions and like layering it and kind of building and then And that sort of sparks that, I suppose, that curiosity.

33:42Yeah. And I think so because the science community really got into it because, you know, there was actually a lot of people out there that studied like cosmetic science and like loved learning. And again, we go into like this is the pH of the product, like this is all of the formulation details so you understand what goes into it and how it works. but then I think when you have the science community like almost leading the conversation to say like wow these products really work you know we all trust people that who's going to argue with scientists not me so then like you know more and more people then followed and that's kind of then really like how the word of mouth started yeah um and everybody likes to think like you know even that kind of like sort of filtering down to like what would land in my girls group chat and they're like well so and so said it well apparently a scientist said if you use a bit of it's kind of that conversation that we all want to feel like we're privy to yeah i mean our number one selling product now is niacinamide and it just seemed like if you go on like google search trend like 10 years ago no one was searching niacinamide right and now the fact that actually so many people know that is like i mean it's it is an incredible ingredient for your skin like it's just amazing that level of knowledge that has now passed to such a wider audience um all through you know the brand which is kind of interesting that a brand would put an ingredient on the map and I mean it's it's absolutely genius I I want to touch on Brandon because obviously this is a podcast about you and celebrating everything that you've done but he was such a big part of your journey and everything that I suppose that you did together and what you achieved together what was your dynamic like because obviously you met in a completely different way you didn't meet with the idea of working together in the capacity that you ended up working um yeah what was your relationship like as two people that work together like incredible and again like I'm just so grateful for meeting him at the point in my life and you know when you just you know there's someone you've just learned so much from like all of my best lessons come from Brandon and actually what I think was really special again about Deciam was you know so Brandon was a decade older than all of us but obviously when when Deciam started everyone he was hiring was just in their early 20s because we couldn't afford anyone other than like the odd finance person where we needed some skills and then Brandon taught all of us like he spent so much like he was a teacher through and through wow so I feel like he taught and and what's nice about even decimals of today like I look around and there were so many of the original team members who were kind of taught by Brandon and they know all of his like lessons like his way of thinking like he was a maverick he was so different but like he was so talented on everything from like the science and he would you know he dropped me off one day pick me up the next morning and he'd have already read like another 80 studies on something I'm like I've only not seen you just like 9 p.m last night and he's like this is where we are it's like he was you know like obsessive in in those ways um but like you know it always just amazed me like how could someone be that good at like science at design like he just he had the answer and like he was just so confident and just um you know he was high maintenance which I think you know a lot of founders are yeah and I think that's where like I'm quite calm and I think you know the combination of us I think just really worked because you know startup can be stressful uh and again you know back then like there wasn't very good work-life balance but I always say like it was fine because actually none of us really had much of we didn't no one had kids like no one had feelings out like everyone kind of signed up for like look we are we are fully in here and if we all have to stay to the office till midnight like we're there because we want to be because we're creating something new and it's so exciting and someone's just giving us you know an opportunity for an fsu but only if we can get the artwork there in time so like we're just jumping at those opportunities so he was just like the most incredible personality but i think you know sometimes when someone's brain is such a genius it's kind of you know you see it with with other people now and like i it's hard to ever diagnose other you know people that you don't know but i almost think there's geniuses and then like mental health challenges i think there's almost a very fine line between that sort of high functioning like their brain is so active yeah that kind of I don't know like they they just think differently to all of us and like the world is such a better place for those people and then at times you know sometimes it not it doesn't go wrong but like you just a different part happens and yeah you know you have to deal with that and I think what was really hard for us was so the ordinary launch at the end of 2016 and I mean instantly we just we couldn't catch our breath because it just exploded then we got investment from Estee Lauder companies in the summer of 2017 so you know the ordinary was only nine months old at this point and then at the beginning of 2018 um was kind of when you know everything changed with with Brandon and he had his challenges so we'd only had a year of the ordinary we went six months into an investment with with Estee Lauder when it was kind of like the whole world changed and it was so unexpected and again like I'm probably naive and because I'm always cut path for like I kind of don't always maybe see the risks and things that that come but then 2018 happened which was like the most horrendous year and you know we're dealing with someone who we really like is a best friend like you know the you know like you're a start at yourself like your your culture is different like you're not just colleagues like you're you're really living and breathing together and you're in the trenches you're in the highs you're in the lows yeah it's an extension of your family this was this was family and so 2018 was just like the most horrible year but we had this point of like you know the ordinary was going like this the business was crumbling from like a people behind the scenes behind the scenes we obviously had this new investor and again like you know any startup dreams of getting an investment from someone like SA Lauder companies and then a few months later you're like oh my gosh like the whole kind of shit's falling apart and then of course having that investor brings extra pressure and extra kind of you want to seem like everything is all together in front of those people that are kind of betting on you at that time and and I have to say like I mean I'm actually so grateful that it was SA Lauder companies because they you know they're a family company and like the one something that they always came to us were like we're about like family values we're about humans and like they really cared so much about the situation about Brandon about myself about all of the team and I think had we been with another PE firm I feel like there'd have been other people that would have handled situations differently differently and they were supported and we were so lucky just to have like support love patience whilst you know when you're in a situation where like there is no right answer like how do you how do you handle it how do you you know and it's nobody knows the right answer as you say when you know at this point you'd known each other for a long time and you have that family closeness when did you feel like things were sort of changing for the worst so at the end of 2017 there were like a few just a few signals a few conversations a few comments I was like oh like this just feels a little bit different um but then really it was overnight during the the holiday break for Christmas and New Year where like everything changed and when we and I was in Australia at the time and like when I came back to Toronto in early January it was it was just like instant like a light switch where someone who you've just known is like he was you know even though he was hot like high maintenance like he was so kind he was so generous he was so full of love and then someone's just suddenly like a stranger um and then so I left the business in in the February so everything was quite quickly and then at that point I was like okay like I can't do anything to to help because this is a it just felt such an unmanageable situation and did you feel that you were sort of as much as you are close and you want to help but the person you know and love is changing in front of you did you then feel really on the outside of that completely on the outside and it was difficult because you know I also felt like everyone was looking at me to be like like what can we do like and and like but I was also scared of him like you know suddenly when you've gone from like there was not I was never like I would have said anything to him you know like you just have that fully open relationship you now don't know now know how to act you don't know how to kind of handle a situation or be yourself in a situation yeah and I think you know since we've since I've spoken about this on on different things over the past couple of years honestly the amount of people that have reached out to me and had something similar like in their family or and and what I find so hard is like if this situation happened again I wouldn't know how to handle it any differently because it feels like as a society we kind of don't have any more answers yet like like mental health addiction like it's still such a you know if someone has cancer like there is kind of a consensus around like okay this is the treatment plan like this is how we can get you know like you make a plan you're all aligned whereas when it's mental health it's so difficult because like you're trying to get a diagnosis against the thing that's telling you that there's not it's just so complex there's such a push and pull with it isn't there and it's kind of it's not I mean nothing's linear but particularly with mental health it's so it's so up and down and when you're kind of watching someone that you love and adore in that way but you feel very helpless and it goes back to being that kind of control freaking you you want to fix it and you want to step in and you want to be that person that can, you know, put a bandaid over it and be able to help, but it's impossible.

44:06Yeah, and, like, you know, you have the... Because it's, like, an area I try to look into, but then you have all, like, the human rights issues because, again, it's difficult. Like, I see it with my dad with the addiction. Like, you know someone just needs to stop, but you can't force them to stop. And, like, you know, with Brandon, like, he would get sectioned and then he'd be released again. And we'd just be, like, back into this circle. so 2018 was just incredibly difficult um so then when it got to the October he got removed from the company by a court order and this was you know the I guess kind of the last straw was when he so he he'd done an Instagram post saying like we're shutting the whole company down and do you have a relationship at this point we do but it's it's a very difficult one well it's kind of a you know one day he'd be like I love you so much you're the best thing ever then the next day he'd be you know you we'd be in an uber and he'd be like someone's filming us like I need to get out here like make sure we're not following you know like the paranoia and just like things that wouldn't make sense and sometimes then you'd have a brilliant business conversation and then there'd be like a threatening email that would go out to like with the whole world on cc from like your buyers journalists like you know the entire team so it was such a like hard place to balance and I think because I'd when I tried to like say you're okay and kind of get him help earlier he'd push me away so then when I kind of came back into the fold I was like okay how am I going to manage it this time because I'd rather feel like I was there to protect where I can but I know he doesn't want you to be you know he it's difficult like he doesn't think he's ill so you can't say you okay like you can't behave in this way it's so sensitive it's just like an an impossible situation to manage so everyone like again like everyone had just been so supportive because there was just so much love but obviously when it got to the point of like the whole company shutting down it was I mean there's everyone's livelihoods now everyone's jobs and I think it was also clear like he wasn't getting better like he was only getting worse so the court order was temporary um so like let's kind of just remove him and then see like hopefully and you know people say like someone has to reach rock bottom to get better so like okay maybe if he feels like he's losing decium that will be his like kick start to actually like get the help he needs turn it around but everyone was always like committed to like look it's just temporary like he'll come back in his ceo back in his found or like whatever he wants like we just want him to be healthy and happy so that was in the october and at that point i was seven months pregnant um with my first daughter Mila so then I became sole CEO so again like again it's all this balancing act between okay we have this like incredible growth we have a company that's crumbled because there's been firings people have left like you know we've lost so many people and it's really quite public too it's so public there's that added pressure of this being quite noisy and we're talking like company-wide big emails and you know firing and to twitter instagram like you know he was doing videos it was all over social so there was kind of all of that to sort but then there was also like oh my gosh like there's this person we love who's suffering and like we've kind of given up hope a little bit because you know when someone's been to hospital in many countries and then they're let out like you've got different approaches from you know different friends like the lawyer like everyone's tried and we're not getting anywhere um then you know the end of that year was kind of just trying to keep an eye on brandon like try and kind of fix the company get things working and then obviously in january we got well we actually heard via the press we got an inquiry to say can you confirm brandon's passed away gosh and and i remember like at the time i was like no I'm sure he hasn't and I remember so I rang I was in in the UK and I rang Steve and our COO to say like we just had this like I haven't heard anything um and he went to the police station and that's how we we found out it was true and at that point like his family didn't know his friends didn't know like no one knew but we also knew the press now knew so like there wasn't long to communicate with everyone that we had to and that was early January and it's just you know sometimes it still doesn't even feel real he's not here and it's such like he had so much to give in life and it's just so sad when it ends in that way and I feel like he never even got to truly see the success that like even the ordinary became or like when I look at our team now and we are so like diverse and like you know for me like belonging was always a big thing of what brandon wanted our culture to be and we've achieved so much because of him but he's not here to kind of taste that yeah it's i mean goodness me i can't this is a situation that you just it's almost the unthinkable and in this you've you know you're losing a friend you're grieving but shortly just before you have a baby so you're I don't know is there between Brandon's passing and then you give him birth there's like what 21 days or something something crazy how there's so much going on and so much to comprehend but how as a woman we all know that post baby time is it's so hard to find your feet and it's such a tricky time there's that kind of that maternity leave energy that every woman has to face where you think oh gosh I don't this is everything to me I don't want to walk out on that but also I this is a really big milestone for me and this is a pivotal moment in my life and I'm about to become a mum and for you was for the first time you've now lost someone that you love and you adore you then give birth and this is also a gorgeous time in your life but it's having that kind of loss and that bringing life into the world so close together where are you in that time what does that how are you mentally because it's a lot to kind of deal with and a lot to but then also knowing that you are everyone's looking to you in terms of decim in terms of the ordinary you are the girl that's going to put that cape on and save the day I mean saying it's pressure would be small frying that at that time how how is Nicola how are you coping you know what I think I was so busy and it was probably the best thing because I think like even now I'm like gosh I don't know if I've ever had a minute to grieve brendan and i always think it's like and even like probably back to my dad and stuff like i'm someone i i just you keep busy you keep going busy brains and sometimes just like never never stopping and i think you know it wasn't really a choice back then because it's like okay this company needs saving and we have all of these people who are you know like emotionally really suffering as in like within the team like they've they've been through a lot but also like we have this business that's like it has to happen exponentially and like we kind of also owe it to Brandon like this is also like his only legacy now and kind of what we can build from here and then you have a baby who like you know all I dreamed of was like it's funny because like I always said growing up it was either like entrepreneur or stay-at-home mom and like even now I go through both like some days you know I'll like be at soft play or a playroom like oh I love being a stay-at-home mom and then I like come into a business thing and I'm like I love being business and you know it's finding like the balance of the two and like the one thing that I do think within you know Mila's first year and and this is where again I think you know like being an entrepreneur and kind of having your own flexibility the way you look at flexibility like Mila was always with me but obviously in the first year there's just a lot of cuddles there's a lots of naps like she'd be on the sling I'd be on my laptop kind of working and you know my mum would come on trips with me my husband would come on trips with me so there was kind of like just a community yes that we just kind of got through it bit of a bubble yeah and actually you know it's like I said like I feel like then I had more time when the kids have got older where you know they appreciate the farm days more like you know they can't you're on your phone they're like mummy like get off watch me yeah and you're like god it would be easy if you're in a sling right now so actually I find in some ways you know I know you have the the tiredness but I actually found the first year quite easy to like blend just because you know like mila would just come and you know her first year i think she did 15 trips to toronto and she went to like shanghai she started crawling in australia at nine months she's well traveled but actually she was like the perfect age to travel with um so actually i felt like you know it was a blend but yeah i think just like busyness kind of just got through that that first year and so then that was you know 2019 and then 2020 we were um getting ready to to do a deal with the elc in terms of selling the company and you know this had been like a long negotiation like it's a a big process in those types of things and we were just about to sign the deal i remember it was my birthday on march 26 and they rang and they were just covid had just hit and they were just like look we can't sign you know a huge check when the whole world's about to shut down and like none of us know what's gonna happen and because my husband's got his own business as well and he had like some similar things happening in terms of like all of these customers just being like whoa like well the kind of wheels just fell off the world yeah no one knew what was gonna happen so i remember we were just there like what is gonna happen and then it's interesting because probably within well I know within a month later both in my husband's business and I like COVID was a boom because suddenly actually like everyone was at home everyone was shopping skincare not color we were already quite well positioned online because again when you're you know when you're a younger brand like online just really works whereas a lot of the legacy brands were much more focused on bricks and mortar distribution they were more in department in stores so suddenly it was like okay we're everywhere where consumers are shopping and actually competitions are a lot less everyone's now obsessing over skincare and I feel like as well it was kind of the time when tiktok really became a thing and like so it's kind of felt like we're all doing those dances yeah everyone was locked down just skincare tiktok doing their things so actually that next year for us was like I mean I say we'd already gone like this but then we went like this um because again so you're like now dealing like you know we've just kind of got things back on track and now we've got this again new set of just phenomenal circumstances that have actually all lucked out in the ordinary's favor from a demand perspective i mean gosh our fill rates are like we were lucky to even get anything above about 30 and the problem is because the retailers knew we couldn't deliver so then you know if they needed 100 units they would order a thousand units because they want to be sat on the stock maybe we'll like just give them like 10 % yeah yeah so we didn't even know what anyone actually wanted because it was like everyone had this game of like bluffing and like well maybe if we say this you might give us this because it was just crazy and at that time so COVID ended up being like a huge boom for the business and so then obviously then when we re-entered the conversations and in 2021 which was when SA Lauder companies then became our majority owner but again I think what was being really nice about our relationship with them you know seven years from the first investment to them fully acquiring the business which meant that actually they really it's like we took time they really and obviously in the first few years when they're the minority they don't particularly have any say in anything yeah they're just like listening they're just observing you know we're maybe asking them some questions about markets or things that we don't know yet and then obviously then so we had that for four years and then when we transition into them being the majority kind of you know slightly shifted where you know they then have a little bit more responsibility but because they had so much trust in the team and what we were capable of like they were like like we know you guys like you've you've kind of got this you already kind of forged that sort of marriage as it were and you've already kind of you've both proved yourself to each other and you know like through the journey so we we always you know reporting to stefan and de la fabrie who's now become the the ceo and he's just phenomenal and incredible and like really like believed in us so I feel like so lucky that we had them as the partner and like they were really part of the journey and they've always been like they've really understood that we're different to other brands we're different to their brands and actually we need to behave in a different way we need to be treated in a different way and I think that respect goes a long way and they embrace that that incredibly I have sort of read interviews and I there's a there's a kind of statement that use about yourself where you dub yourself the most unqualified CEO what explain to me what that means because your success tells a very different story girl what what does that mean to you so I think I mean from like I couldn't if I applied for a CEO role at any other company like the size of Decian there's no way I would get it because you know my understanding of financials and supplies like all of those areas like I know I don't mean to say they're the boring side of the business but you know kind of like the operational side like I haven't got the energy for it like I I get excited about like new brands the products new markets and kind of all of that side and I feel I don't know sometimes I'm like gosh how like how have I got this far you know you just keep waiting do you think that's a bit of like imposter syndrome well I actually don't know because I feel lucky I mean look there's no one there was no one better than me because there's no one who could have loved the brand and the people more than I did right so that's what makes it so unique and special I think to Decian but gosh I'd be like a terrible CEO at another company and again you know I'm like how but I guess it's the difference between you know like being a co-founder and like because look energy goes so far and like I always think energy is something that you can't teach people like you you have it or you don't and and again like we're I think I've always been good at bringing in people and recognizing who are the good people yes and you know like we would be not like Dion our chief brand officer like there are just some people who are so fundamental to the success of of Decium um and even in the more boring areas you know like we've like probably went through eight different finance directors but we hit the jackpot eventually and then that really stuck so you know like I think I've been good at finding the right people but it's it's always one of those strange ones where and especially you know when you're younger and like actually most of the people around you like with experience are obviously kind of older they have more experience and it's a strange feeling when you know like everyone but so I feel like normally when you progress in a career you know you and you're always kind of better skilled than the person below you because you know you get the promotion and like you've done that job and then you do that whereas I feel like you know the scale of DCM and everything like the only thing that I had more of I think was just the love and the energy and the passion but I mean the finance director the supply you know all of those people are 10 times more skilled than I am at that particular field but I think you know values are everything and I think you know there's those types of things that like I live and breathe it's in my DNA and actually just like consistently show and like the love and the trust and and I think you know people get you such a long way and so I feel like that's if I was always stronger well you can't underestimate that that's like the fiber and like you say the dna of the brand you know and that is of course everything you know every qualification counts of course we know that but the energy for the brand like you say it's it speaks for itself it really really does yeah and I think you know just being a a positive high energy person I think actually goes a really long way yeah but also someone who's quite calm so actually like you know I feel like any scenario you know it's kind of like look we can find a solution like yes we've got this like we just need to kind of find the right thing and you know I think for any company like in your early days like agility is everything so so important and then we actually had something recently which I just loved because I felt you know we've we obviously got much bigger now and you can't help but getting slower it's just the nature of the game because you know where we used to launch a product now when we launch a product like we have to have it in in pretty much most markets at the same time because if we don't then we're gonna piss off no you're fine you piss them off girl we're gonna annoy consumers you know like in australia they're gonna like why don't we have that like tiktok social like everything's global now so like you have to plan it retailers they need to know in advance like where you're going you've got regulations you have to register like it just gets more complex but recently we did something in the us so i don't know if it's not been so much in the news in the uk but they've had like a huge egg shortage there's been like a huge outbreak of bird flu um and like eggs have become like you're queuing and they're all sold out by the toilet roll exactly like that and it's like 20 for like 12 dozen eggs it's just like become this like absurd thing so anyway within 12 days the team did this partnership with them mischief where we basically managed to find a supplier of eggs and we we sold like the ordinary eggs in our new york stores and anyway so like 12 days from like the idea to having it in store and like this was just basically done on whatsapp that was how you and like that never happens anymore and anyway it was just such an amazing moment i found for like the company and it became my most ever liked post on instagram so you know when like you and i always say to the team now is is you have to get this balance between so any startup like agility is your biggest superpower as you get bigger like you have to be more planned there's more people there's just kind of more things that you need to deal with but I'm always like you need to you know if you're 80 % planned you have to keep 20 % for because you know three months ago we wouldn't know that there was going to be this moment that we could like jump on but actually someone saw it we jumped on it and actually it was an amazing moment for the brand yeah and that beauty of being able to be reactive and execute that in such a big way is kind of like that's exciting right like it was such a thrill and again you know because it it just felt so startupy again to do it which is really those moments yeah so let's let's talk about you now because so much you know those kind of real the dark times and those dips you have sword and like not just the ordinary and desium as a business but you as a person too how what does your role look like now because i know that you've you've last year at the end of last year you stepped away so what made that decision and how does that look like now so you know desium it's what it's been i guess 13 years of my life and and i love it i love the people you know when you you're thinking like the next chapter and I guess what was my children are six and four and they're growing so quickly and you know I want to be there for all the moments like you know my my four-year-old sorry he doesn't start school till September he's um one of the oldest in his year but like I want to enjoy those like last few days with him before he actually starts school and kind of just be there for everything and I thought gosh like you know we've built so much we've achieved so much like I finally have the freedom that I wanted that I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on stuff because I have to be on a zoom call and I have to be here and and again maybe the stuff that I actually am not the best at anymore because it has become so much bigger that you do need someone who is more organized and got supply you know like has everything under control which definitely was not my my qualifications and so you know I had lots of conversations with Stefan with Jesper who we brought in as our general manager a couple of years ago and I was like look I I will talk forever about how incredible Desi and the ordinary are like I truly believe like we are some of the best brands and the best people on on the planet but I was like I don't want to be in meetings about supply chain and stock and inventory and like all of that other stuff like I want to enjoy this time now whilst my family are young like I just want more freedom like you know all the things that you know when you have young children like I don't have time to read books or things that you don't want to miss there's just other stuff that I want to do so then they're like well what do you want so then I say we just came up with such a happy thing now so like I say on this co-founder so effectively I still get to be involved in like the brand the vision the strategy like new products and but then also just like sharing our message you know going to China in a few weeks where we're launching there and so I feel like it's just a happy blend now and it also gives me time you know I I still don't know at this stage like I go I think I was saying too early like I go through a stage of another business another brand and then I'm like oh my gosh I just want more children and like yeah well it's kind of like it goes back to what you said at the start of the conversation which that you strive for freedom for the financial freedom but also for how that looks to you and that's kind of caught between the idea of would I you know is my goal in life to be a stay-at-home home mom or an entrepreneur it goes back to those decisions you were making as a little one which is so interesting I think about life is you know when when people talk about like having it all it's so hard to have it all at one point but I feel like within your life you can have it all but it's just understanding I mean like in my 20s like gosh like the hours I worked was like insane you know like the evenings the weekends like it was so intense but now I'm in my 30s and I am in this period with like a young family I'm like gosh like I want the freedom yeah but that doesn't mean there's not another chapter where you can like get more involved or you know at the moment I've made a couple of investments and like that side I'm loving because it's kind of like you you still get some of the energy and the entrepreneurship but like you're not the one having to do the hard work and it's so nice because I was going to come on to that actually and I've and I've noticed that and I've seen a lot of that on your social too is does that feel important to you to kind of having built and you know let's decim is now a 3.6 billion dollar pound company which is an absolute beast is it important to you to kind of help other people along the way too and do you get as much of a thrill out of that i think it's like the passion um like if I meet someone else high energy like I just love them yes I love meeting like other people ideas entrepreneurs founders and and yeah sharing like and it's difficult you know like I share our advice of what we did but the one thing is like the world changes so quickly and like what worked for us a few years ago is different for a brand now you know like the it feels at the moment I think so what I think was really good for indie brands was like almost the barriers came down and it sort of became so easy for like new brands to launch but the downside of that I feel like it also feels quite crowded now yeah and quite saturated with so many new brands so like you know everything's just different in a period but like if I can help people or invest in stuff like it's just exciting and it's fun and yeah I think there's lots of interesting areas still for people to go after yeah well it seems like you're going after all of them and I love that I love that because that excitement when you're that high energy person that excitement never dies it just doesn't does it and you can recognize that in someone else and if you can invest in them and what they do why not right there needs to be more of that I want to do our rocket round now which we ask our guests the same questions every episode it's supposed to be quick fire but we're a little bit lenient because we like to chat um so the first one is what do you think the non-negotiables are for launching a business passion energy you have to have um but I don't think it has to be passion around the industry as such because I think you know I actually saw I feel like all my coaching comes from you know you open Instagram and you feel like you're getting coached by so many different people but it's interesting because it was saying you know people want the glamorous industries and like I'm lucky that it actually happened in beauty which is so exciting but they were saying that actually you shouldn't always follow your passion I thought was really good advice as in because you know my husband his his business is flying they have 150 people like a nine-figure valuation it's an e-learning which you know it's not the most glamorous of things but like he got into that and like set up his own business and kind of followed that there so it's almost like if you're passionate about being an entrepreneur I think you know depending on maybe your early years where you get experience or like if you know people and you can learn about an industry like I think it's okay for your passion to be being an entrepreneur rather than my passion is skincare because if your passion is skincare or fashion like they're very competitive to get into and so I think that's interesting but you have to have passion and energy like if you want to be an entrepreneur like it isn't easy like you have to hustle like you have to just have that mentality of not giving up and really going um and then look I think transparency is so important you have to have a purpose like you have to really know like your why but then you also have to be agile because your why may change and I think you know your values need to be consistent but like the world is fast pacing and in consumers change their minds very often yeah so you kind of have to have the agility but really stick to your core values yeah when did you first realize that you truly launched was there a moment that you thought wow i remember so our first store our own store we launched was in spitterfields market oh i know it's so nice and i remember the first time seeing someone with a carrier bag who you know like you haven't given them the bag like they've actually obviously been in and bought and that was a i remember i was like look they've got a bag that was kind of a real pinch me yeah it's always those little things isn't it that you think it might be the point where we had investment or we sold this part of the company but actually like those moments they really do it yeah and I also remember like you know you'd have come people like what do you do where do you work and I'd be like this is pre the ordinary black desi and we're like an umbrella of different you know I'd be explaining because people wouldn't just know who we were from saying it and I remember when I could then start saying oh like the ordinary and they're like oh yeah I know that brand oh I use that it was such a shift between like I'm like we do Neil we do fountain like we do all these other brands like explaining them so that was nice yes yeah there's there's no there's no elaboration needed what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed um so the first thing is normally woken up by one of my children i have one who runs in and one who shouts and he's like going to be bought do you know i have that dynamic i'm not sure which is worse well i actually like it because i always said to my So normally our daughter ends up in bed with us at some point in the night, whereas my son would shower and I would go into his bed.

1:12:04But I'm like, the day he realises Milo actually gets into bed with us, he's going to be like, I want to be there. Then that's two. And then it's going to be too busy, so it kind of works. But yeah, definitely in the mornings. I love being woken up by them. I'm also someone like me and my husband, we like a good eight to nine hours sleep. When you see people like I love on five, we're like, no. Yeah, that's not for us. So we don't wake up early. The kids wake us up, and luckily that's normally about seven. And then last thing at night, you know, I guess probably badly check my phone. Yeah. Watch Netflix.

1:12:35We're all there. Do the usual things. We're all there. The things that you're like, I wish that it wasn't my phone, but the phone is there. What's a skill you'd love to learn? I would love, I feel like wellness is such an interesting area. And I feel like I just love all the businesses in terms of like preventative that coming out, like my Oura Ring, like Neko, Prenuvo. like I'm like gosh there are so many people killing it in that space and I feel like it's something I want to get better at like understanding all of like my biometrics and kind of how my body works yeah oh I love that what's one thing you wish someone had told you before starting your businesses um that's a hard one because you know it just it's difficult because like I say this from a place of success but I feel like you know you want someone just to tell you like it's all going to be good but then I kind of feel like I believed it was all going to be fine anyway and I think you know for for all the heartbreak you go through like there are so many moments of love and you know like you build relationships that can last your entire lifetime and but actually people are everything like it's your number one most important thing to focus on yeah and you're right and I'm not sure that when it's often someone that sets out on a mission they don't realize that actually how important that everybody is on that mission with you yeah because it all starts quite self-indulgently right yeah but like if you find a good person like nurture them because like they are the ones that are going to get you I mean but I mean if you think about business everything is about people because it's your relationship with the buyer your relationship with your consumer like everything is about humans and I find it you know interesting with the you know AI and like chat GPT everything that's coming up like so many roles and tasks will be able to be done by AI but AI will never be able to have that human connection yes and I you know and I think about my kids and like what I try and teach them I'm like gosh like empathy emotional intelligence like I think it's the thing that's most of the successful entrepreneurs I know actually probably have a much higher eq than iq because actually it's all about people and actually your ability to adapt your style to other people bring the best out of people yes you're so right it's all people so so right if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be that's a hard one i and i probably might may pick two people for different reasons so one would probably be anita erotic just from the sense of like someone who was so ahead of her time in terms of actually really like putting people the planet like all the things that we know are the right things to do like she really put them at the forefront and and what I think is a shame about like this moment in time is I feel like a few years ago it felt like we were all making so much progress yes and now like the last year or so happens and I'm like oh my gosh like let's not undo all the goodness that we're trying in the world but you know and I think she started that like 50, 60 years ago.

1:15:38Like I think that was just like huge for her. Ahead of a time. And then the other person who I always think is like an interesting example from like female leadership, and I know people will find like controversy with the royal family, but I always felt like the queen was someone who, and I know she was born into that role, but I mean when she became queen in like 1952, like women weren't respected in that way. Yes. And the way she held that power across like all the prime ministers and like, I mean, I just feel like actually as someone from like a female who really just like shone in leadership.

1:16:14And I think the other thing, you know, I don't think a leader always has to be the loudest. And I think, again, the Queen was kind of like she had grace. She had she was always felt like she was consistent with her values. And, you know, I feel like I certainly felt like there was stability. I don't know if she had any power. over the prime minister but when she was there for so long it just felt like wow this is someone who cares about like the country yes and I just think from yeah like a leadership spectrum like it would be interesting to know how she was but it always felt like she just had something special about her and I think sometimes actually like being the quiet leader but someone who's just consistently like believes in their values there's a lot to be said about not being so loud and not being so yeah there is there is definitely something in that and i i often think there's definitely been a big difference since she's not been here yeah you know and i mean the royal family now is like entirely different but i just think when she became queen like it really meant that moment in time moment in time and like that was in a world where like men ruled the world like significantly back then and i felt like gosh she really must of like held her own yes so many rooms and like you say i know that you're you are born into that family as it were but to take it on in that way is something different in itself isn't it definitely yeah love that um i ask every guest to leave a tip so i suppose one piece of like tangible advice that you'd give a listener to a lady that's looking to launch in perhaps a similar the vanity you have what would that be if you had one piece of advice you just have to get started because you know I see people where they you know they'll build like a five-year ten-year plan you don't need that because you don't know what's going to happen like plan five months out like just get started like you know it's going to take some hustling and you know maybe it's a side thing whilst you're kind of still doing your your role but sometimes you just have to get the clock started yeah because you can figure things out once you're doing it I mean like I think about so many of our brands like the brand names change the packaging change like you can adjust things as you go along because you'll get feedback you'll you'll see different things like COVID happens like there's just the world's forever changing that you can't plan for but the only thing you have to do is just get started at some point you're so right because I think everybody lets that kind of fear of failing get in the way or fear we talk about this fear of failing loudly now with social media and actually failing fast is the best thing that can happen if you just get on with it but also I think so often like you know we talk about failing but you it's just adaptability like if you're someone who has like the energy and the drive I mean your business might change 10 times like the ordinary it took us 11 times to like get the brand right but we kept going we kept trying new things and you just have to get started I think you know the sometimes the longer you plan well the thing you've planned for things have changed just get going and you're so right and that's kind of a really interesting outlook to actually have a five-month plan rather than a five-year at the start because then that urges you to kind of it gives you something to head for that's quite immediate rather than so far down the line because that gives you an opportunity to sort of kick it down the road a little bit and let's wait for this to be perfect or let's wait for that to happen where but I mean even now for like desi I'm like plans like no one ever hits a plan perfectly like no sometimes you're up sometimes you're down like you know everything no one can predict the future so actually all you can do your best is just start today and then adjust as you go I love that and then lastly a question I ask everyone because I'm nosy and we've spoke we've spoken all about being a lady who launches but in terms of a lady who lunch a lady who likes to lunch if you're at work and you're in the office how does lunch hour look to you where are you are you kind of working whilst you're lunching who are you with and what are you eating oh gosh so this would very much depends like when we're in toronto uh normally it's like a salad to the office and so when i'm in toronto i feel like those days are so busy yeah like every hour is like a meeting and stuff so it's always a working lunch with like whoever's in the team whoever's in the meeting and if it's in London office and normally I will be going out with one of like the team Lizzie Dionne or someone um always love a matcha latte love a salad I'm actually quite into fasting as well depending on some days where like I could quite easily skip breakfast and I could often skip lunch and get to dinner so like depending on like especially on Monday or Tuesday would maybe try and do that um but yeah but what are you eating so if you were going to be in London you were going to go out what's your kind of if your team were going to order for you because they know you don't have time and they're like okay she'll be here in a minute what are they ordering for you oh gosh probably like a salad but I don't know I feel like I change a lot we call them sexy salads on the podcast yeah we spoke about this and we're like we like a sexy salad like a salad makes us sound like because that's my go-to I'm like a good salad but like I want I want a lot of ingredients in that oh yeah dressing I want the cheese the croutons everything what's your dream uh what if i was building my own i'd have like like a remain lettuce but then i would add like the sweet potatoes the mushrooms the feta um like some chicken some salmon like all the flavored stuff and that's what makes it a sexy salad you see we don't it doesn't need to be dry that dry when i think of like you order it's a risky order because sometimes you'll go and you'll be like i'll have a chicken salad and it's literally just that chicken and leaves no we want you need the juice we want the extras i'm like if it's pizza day like i eat everything we'll take pizza i'm happy thank you so much thank you i've absolutely loved that it's been so nice talking to you and i feel like i've got to know you so well so thank you thank you very much

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