Ep 39: Turning Personal Struggles Into a Nutrition Empire with Emily English

0:11Today we're joined by Emily English, nutritionist, content creator and founder where we chat all things, building a brand, earning trust and growing a business that actually makes an impact. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Welcome to Ladies Who Launch. Thanks for having me. No, thank you for being here. I've followed you for so long. I've made about 50 of your recipes. And actually so is my husband, which is a really good credit to you by the way. I remember the pie. Yes. Yes. And it was a good one. And it's the first thing that I'm like, he's taken his own initiative with and then we had this thing for a while where I'd be like send him because basically his new year's resolution one year was he was going to cook once or twice a week because he just hasn't ever bothered and his excuse was always oh you're better than me and I just do fry up on a Saturday and that become his thing so he made this his new year's resolution and then we would send each other like a couple of your recipes in the week and then it It was his thing that he would make one.

1:14And the pie has lasted. It stood the test of time. I love it. Yeah. I mean, his cooking regularly didn't last, but the pie remains. So when I said today you're on, she was like, yes, that's my girl. That's my girl. Pie girl. Pie girl. I want to talk about so much with you today. And I think it's really interesting because when everyone discovered you, it was probably in that same vein, right? sharing those recipes and discovering you by social media but I know there was a lot of work that was happening behind the scenes for quite a long time but before we get there let's start with your childhood I always like to start way back when because I really think it shapes who we are now how was your childhood what what did that look like to you I would say chaotic I come from a massive family so I'm one of five but my parents had me and my older brother when they were very very young um then they were like oh let's have one more about eight years later fell pregnant with twins and then my mum had my little sister literally 12 months after giving birth to twins so she had three kids under the age of three she was she's an absolute wonder woman like as well she's just incredible like love my mum um she was born to do it um but we then ended up having this like household that it was like me and my older brother who were like eight nine years old at this point and then these three kids under the age of three like my twin brothers were chaotic so boys are chaotic as babies as it is but two at once it was like having a friend over all the time you know that just like energy so i think as a person i kind of went from this like perfect little family of four to suddenly having to be relied on and very kind of hyper independent when it came to organizing myself yeah so i used to have to like get my school clothes ready i would have to make sure that i like had enough money for like my my school lunches and like i would have to make sure that like my homework was on no one was chasing me if that makes sense well because the house was so busy so busy i'm probably guilty as a parent doing that a little bit of my eldest is nearly 12 she's not i mean by any means she's not definitely not providing her own money or anything that's definitely no by that I mean like scrolling through the drawer and like trying to find the 20 and 10 piece yeah I'm still like sorting her out like she's still young but but where there's three of them I sort of think all right Laver you're older you know what to do you go and give you know have a shower sort yourself out but I think that does come with being the eldest in a house doesn't it a hundred percent and my older brother was definitely like a lot more disciplined and also a lot more book smart than I was right so I think I ended up falling into this role that was kind of like I used to help cooking like my mum with the cooking a lot looking after my brothers and sisters whereas my brother was able to kind of like go out with his friends a lot more and like just focus on like being this like multiple way staff student kind kind of thing um but I look back on my childhood and I look back my family I look back really fondly because it definitely shaped the kind of person that I am now and I don't think I would be as resilient and as daring if I didn't feel like I had to make it work by myself anyway and I think the way that I grew up like even at school I remember I was rubbish at sticking to a school curriculum or a timetable I hated it so in what way you just you didn't like that routine I felt like I could study and revise better and learn better that that was kind of like a different structure to what we were doing at school like I hated sitting through like a double lesson oh yeah I hated that and I'm just like but I get kind of halfway to the point I'm distracted and I'm not focused and I always remember like I I did something called the international baccalaureate which is basically a levels on steroids and i did higher level chemistry in that structure and i remember my chemistry teacher turning around to me saying emily i think you're going to fail you should drop down to standard and he wasn't a very nice person um and sound like he's very positive no great i mean like exactly what you want from the teacher but i always say the kind of best example of of who i am as a person is like i turned around and said well i'm not going to get there with you and I said I'm not going to turn up to any of your lessons and you can choose to report me or you can choose not to but I said I'm not dropping down and I got the second highest grade out of the whole of the year for high level chemistry and I self-taught myself so please please tell me there was some sort of debrief with the same teacher after that I remember when we had the award ceremony I said not bad hey I'm not gonna say his name I was like not bad hey and he just looked at me and just walked off and it but that that is just that's yeah that's all you need yeah so I mean I love that so I'm already seeing this kind of like say I can't I'm gonna do it twice and take pictures mentality yeah and do you think that's something that's been consistent through to now a hundred percent a hundred percent because I have never always like I've never been the smartest I've never been the quickest I've never been the tallest like I've never been the person who turns around and and people have said oh Emily like you're the best at this or you were born to do this but I've always wanted to kind of grow and become a better version of myself always you've always had that ambition massively so yeah so take us back because you're at school and you're studying and you're proving the teachers wrong what inspired you to pursue a career in nutrition so I was always really into science loved the way that the human body worked like biology and chemistry i think i wanted to go to university to maybe do like human physiology or something and that's what i was in line to do i go to a music festival when i'm about 16 17 years old and i get scouted to become one of the first in-house models for asos and i mean at the time this is when asos was in its prime and i remember thinking oh my goodness that like i'm going to be on asos and i had an amazing period of working there incredibly um kind of financially stable because modeling pays very very well and I suddenly went from kind of being this kind of little teenage girl to being in London two three times a week and it was funny because I had never really had any experience with diet culture or even nutrition before like if you asked me at school would you go and be a nutritionist I would I would laugh and be like it's not proper like degree is it it's not a proper job like you're just telling people what to lose weight and people have to remember this is literally like 12 years ago now so quite a long time ago and I there was one day that my kind of person who managed me at ASOS turned around and said would you like to get a modeling agency and I said yeah like let's explore this let's do a little bit of like different work just compared to ASOS and I had like a few months there and an amazing summer and I traveled around and I love I've always loved food so I always love restaurants eating out so traveled around ate all the good food came back my agency took Polaroids of me which which is the normal agency process and they looked at the pictures that they'd just taken they sat me down they said um we need to just talk about you losing a bit of weight because your thighs they shoot too big and I'd never how old are you at this point I must have been I don't know I've really tried I must have been like 18 I'm gonna say 19 18 19 and from the difference of being 16 to 19 I mean we change and I thought do you know what annoys me as well is like I say oh we change I'm tiny I'm a tiny person I was gonna say you are so small but like you're so naturally petite so I've always been like I've got I've got no hips I've never grown from the age of 12 um but that's just me and that's my body and but it was the first time that they critiqued me and if we think about like who I was as just a person always wanting to to strive to be the best and that best version of myself I latched on to that and suddenly that critique of my body I was like okay cool I'm gonna people please here and I'm gonna do the best possible job I can to lose weight so what do you do god it's so it is so sad yeah you go to the internet and I googled like how to lose weight quickly and I was just like everything was all about this toxic diet culture phase of things and I unfortunately developed like a really like bad quite rapid eating disorder where I lost a lot of weight very very quickly and I battled with that for probably about six to nine months and did you battle with that in secret no no it was I mean it was you know what was so funny the things that I were doing were not noticeable in the space or the fashion industry so they're not eating the the skipping things the no dressing salads the the kind of just like like losing a lot of weight I remember when it first happened people started to praise me I do remember that but my parents obviously and my mum was just like that my family were devastated they didn't have a lot of ideas what you're what you're saying is in that space that was that this wasn't a big deal that is relatively the norm well I suddenly realized that me having a ham and cheese panini at lunch when I was just normally working at ASOS was the abnormal thing when everyone else was eating dry undressed salads and it was nuts because I mean it happened very very quickly but because I I've always believed that when something takes away more in your life than it adds it's really time to change and I realized that this whole modeling and fashion industry was stripping so much of what I loved about my life away and I remember this very distinctive moment where my mum had made us all cheese rolls for lunch and normally I always made my own lunch by this point I refused to let anyone else cook for me because you were controlling that because I was controlling the food and what sort of thing this was the dry undressed salad this was like my fitness pal weighing your spinach leaves this was like eggs with no egg whites this was just like fat I was petrified of fats would never eat an avocado a drizzle of olive oil over like a salad would be like like give me a heart attack and i know and i say these things and people may just be like it's so silly but like there are so many people out there who are battling it's far from silly it's you know it's it's a disorder for a reason you know so so so so so your mum makes a cheese roll for you all for lunch and it's this defining moment i literally had this breakdown over a cheese roll and i was like this is not how I want my life to look because I'm I was a beautiful young smart intelligent girl who was ready to go to university and do something and learn something amazing and suddenly this whole losing weight and and not knowing how to fuel my body ruined my life and I changed my degree because I deferred for a couple of years and I changed my degree I ended up going to King's in London and I studied nutrition and I find it so crazy now that I look back and I think of every single thing that I've built in my life and all the people that I help and I impact and I reach every single day all is because of the kind of the things that would didn't necessarily go my way like I didn't think oh I'm gonna go and get get an eating disorder and it's gonna be the reason how like why I find my calling do you know what I mean but it's so funny that that is actually how I ended up here.

13:08And I think in those moments too and having spoken to people before that have really suffered in the same way it's really hard to be rational. So it's hard to say it's something that can be a spiral and it's really hard to sort of know what's real and what isn't because you see a completely different version of yourself when you look in the mirror. 100%. So to know that actually God I need to do something because this is real in my life that's that's a really big step isn't it and that's kind of a little a real big light bulb to go off in that moment when you can't sort of see straight rationality goes out the window and there is there is no rationale to any sort of like mental eating disorder like you can't try and just like tell people no there is no reason with it but it's why it's such a unique thing and it's people's own journeys and for me it was the cheese roll the cheese roll was a straw that broke the camels but it's so relative isn't it everyone's journey is so so personal so you then change your degree you are studying nutrition at university and do you is it something you instantly click with no ah so I remember going to university and obviously I loved the science thing and I also kind of like really like I've always loved food like my granny was a chef my first job was in her restaurant that's so cool um and I remember going to university and again like I've just never been a person who's been very good at people telling me exactly how I should be doing something I remember I remember going through and learning about nutrition I'm like guys this is all well and good but like we don't eat nutrients we eat food and I'm gonna say like 80 % of the people on my course couldn't cook so I often compare it now I'm like it's it's like having a football team with football players but you never actually let them practice on the pitch and kick a ball you just get them to like watch a dvd on how to play football yeah that's wild it's nuts so I'm sorry I'm so naive with this.

15:05So when you're on those courses, you're not doing it necessarily around food and around cooking food. There's no food technology combined with nutrition. And it's one thing that I'm really passionate about now is that it goes back into schools as well. So I went back to my school a few months ago and I did a nutrition talk and I did it with the food tech class. And I asked them, I was like, well, do you teach any sort of nutrition in here? do people learn anything about um kind of food and and health and they're like yeah we have this like one module that we do but it's like vitamin d vitamin c like stop you getting scurvy get it from oranges and it's just it's this unrelatable health nutrition advice and so interesting no wonder we're all lost in it or we're so confused and i i remember thinking that when i left school and i left school quite early and i remember thinking i bought a home quite early which is yes a very fortunate thing to be able to do but I didn't know half of the thing you know that went with buying a home I remember when my mum told me that I had to pay water and I was like water what do you mean it's wasn't water just free and I remember being so like blindsided by that because I didn't they're the things that they don't quite teach you in school when it comes to actually being able to function as a human outside of lesson yeah and I think that's the thing so I had amazing professors incredible academics and i was learning there was like i remember the most fascinating thing that i learned is there are the same sweets uh taste receptors on your tongue in the gut which is so cool i remember learning that i'm like wow this is like so incredible this science is amazing and i started discovering uh things about like the gut microbiome and how that impacts pretty much everything in our body and i'm like cool cool so how do i translate this to help all of this scientific information to help Bob and Jane.

16:57Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. So I still think there was this kind of massive divide and every single thing that I was learning between like, okay, how is this actually going to be helpful and useful? And something that I always refer to like little M, like something that little M would have benefited from. Yes. Yeah. What would she want to know? What would she want? Because obviously the scale in which you can reach people today, that all has to start somewhere. So you knowing that there's this there's this gap between what's being taught and actually how someone would consume that information.

17:33How did you come to the decision to start sharing on social media? Was that always the plan or was there like a recipe that kicked off when you were doing that for friends or was that was that a strategy of yours? So actually, no. So I remember when I left university, I didn't have social media. I deleted Instagram. I actually kind of removed myself from the whole thing. oh what freedom it was it was quite lovely it was I think because I'd had that kind of whole battle with my mental health like I just knew that social media like looking at a lot of the stuff that was out there just wasn't something that was like nourishing my soul filling you up and I think like most people you leave university and you don't immediately fall into your dream job and you apply and you get rejected and it's really really hard to find something but I ended up getting a job at a DNA testing company so we used to test people's DNA and offer them personalized nutrition advice right based off it and I worked a few months there and I was I really really enjoyed it but I was like oh do you know what I just I really want to start my own business and I've always wanted to do something for myself exactly the same way that I wanted to teach myself chemistry and I wanted to I like I like to be on my own time and it was just before COVID and I remember I left my job and I set up a Squarespace website and I ran Google ads and telling people that I was starting to take on one-to-one nutrition clients um and I wanted to coach them based on everything that I loved about science but also what I believed that people wanted to eat right that was always the whole premise and and then obviously COVID happens so I'm there in this like like infantile business with probably two clients to my name that I just found on and you've given up your job everything's hell-bent on this business working and i'm not gonna lie i was in a very privileged situation where i wasn't paying rent with what i was with my partner at the time who had a house and i lived with him so still there's still a risk that you're taking for you massively so um but i was lucky in the sense that i could there wasn't overheads as such i could take the risk without worrying that i was gonna like lose my house or be homeless or have to move back home again um even though i think my my mom would have loved that um so yeah i i remember thinking oh this this just has to work and i threw everything into it and what i used to do for my clients is that i used to write all of their meal plans personally so i remember working with um a french woman her name was amy lee she was um perimenopausal loved french food quiche was quiche lorraine was just like her favorite thing in the world so i remember when we had a couple of calls she was like em how can i do this weight loss journey but eat quiche lorraine so i would go away and i would write recipes for her based on her cravings and what she wanted to eat and build her meal plans out of that so it was hyper personalized at the time okay because i only had like a few clients i could do it and they all my clients started to turn around to me being like best designer i've ever had we make this we make this weekly now we absolutely love your food like can I share this recipe with my mum and I started to think I think I've got something here I think I'm doing something really great I should post this on social media so the journey from the kind of 8.1.8 million followers I have on Instagram now to the starting point was literally my clients turning around being like love the recipes that you make can you share them and then I was able to share them start sharing them through Instagram as I used to just take pictures of them and write recipes in the caption um so my clients could share it with with more people and then the rest is history that is so so interesting and i suppose at the time like you say you're doing it for them and do you have any idea that it could was you aware of the kind of gravitas of social media and that actually because i honestly think i'm just thinking obviously there's lots of influences and we know that is, I say, a saturated space, but it's not because you follow who you like and there's power in that influence.

21:31But I think you're the first page that I followed that was like solely recipes and ingredients and nutrition. I don't think I followed anyone like you. Yeah. Like in that space. I see more now, which is credit to what you've built. And, you know, I've followed Deliciously Ella for a long time, so I suppose that's in a similar vein. but I think you're the first kind of new school normal nutrition yeah that's what I'm trying to think yeah you your competitor would be at the time I feel like you found a way to really carve your own space there wasn't one and I think it's why I grew so quickly because yes and also that's why your friend said you should do this because it wasn't there which makes perfect sense yeah so was there a moment that you you're doing this you've got this kind of handful of clients was there a moment that you thought okay this is connecting and this is really working now I'm on to the right thing here in terms of like the online presence so I I remember that the social media started to grow quicker than my kind of clinic client side of things did and I never thought that Instagram or and TikTok and stuff would end up becoming kind of like my main source of income um but I'm trying to think of what the defining moment was I think when I started to hit maybe kind of 50 ,000 followers and then brands started to become interested in working together and and that kind of spiraled and people wanted me to go on their podcasts it became a very kind of organic natural word of mouth yes and i remember actually so i when things started to open up again i had an opportunity to open up a delivery dark kitchen i don't often talk about it um but it's not often something that people know about me but i basically when all the restaurants and the pubs closed down they used to rent out their kitchens to takeaway concepts right okay i did not know this no so i started a delivery company called the nutritionist table right and it lasted probably about three months and it was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my in my life but that was using my recipes again on delivery format so people would be able to buy like my salad bowls and my breakfast and stuff on delivery and then I ended up getting like a small little catering contract with Waller Brothers Studios that I used to meal prep for like four of the actors on um on the set of The Flash no way which was nuts and I I talk about now, I don't reference it enough because I think it's important for people to know it's like from where I am now to starting that kind of first little nutrition clinic, I've had my fingers in loads of different pies and I've tested and I've tried loads of different things, but they're all kind of like a stick together mosaic of what has made me successful and have a real strong presence.

24:31And I feel like I know exactly who I am in this health and nutrition space now because of all of the kind of random things that I've done. But you are health and you are nutrition and you are wellness, but there's so many different sort of facets to that, isn't there? It's not kind of like all you're going to do is have an Instagram channel. There are lots of different layers to that and how you get people to hear it, right? Different platforms that you need to use and different kind of avenues that you need to try before everybody really goes, okay, okay, I'm understanding this now. And if that's what you're doing for the greater good of letting people, like it goes back to that kind of class where you're like, how do you, yes, but great, but how do we bring this into food?

25:13You know, you need to do whatever you can to let people really digest that, for want of a better word, message. What was, did you get to a point where there, because obviously then it quickly, like you say, you're around 50 ,000 followers, brands then want to be involved. you know that then this is now an avenue for income and it's probably bettering the clinic side of stuff did it then become a conscious effort to make instagram more of a strategy because obviously it's at the start you're posting if and when i've got a recipe oh i hope people see it and then you're going in that traction and then you know it could lead to other things potentially does it become like a conscious effort to make Instagram a business I do you know I say yes and no I feel like the transition from going from my clinic into solely doing social media was very kind of flowing and organic right it kind of really happened and I knew when it was the right time to step away from my clinic side of things because I I realised that I can help thousands of people, but the level of personalisation that I wanted to do when I worked with someone one-on-one, I was capped really at six to seven clients a month.

26:35I couldn't... And that still pushed me to, like, my absolute time limit. You're trying to give somebody your all, aren't you? My all, yeah. And I started that clinic naively in what I wanted to... or how I wanted to help people because that level of personalisation is just not, like, it's not sustainable for one person. So unless I was able to expand the nutrition clinic and it wasn't financially successful in a way that supported that. When you're service-based to that degree, people want you. So if you was to build out your clinic, you can imagine the clients that you've already had, yeah, yeah, great, but Emma, I want you to do it because you get me.

27:15And that's the thing. So I was tied. You're spreading yourself thin. Super thin. And then I realized like, oh my goodness, all the things that I was helping my clients with that left me super fulfilled, I can do through social media. So I ended up carving this really definitive strategy. And from day one, like this has always been my main strategy. And it's the food you want to eat designed by a nutritionist. Yes. And that underpins every single thing that I do. And it's very helpful that my husband's a marketing strategist. Ah, okay. So we sat down and we were like, who are you in this space?

27:50Because if you don't know who you are as someone who wants to create a business or create a brand identity, then how on earth are you going to find the people who relate to you or your customer or your consumer? And there's nothing wrong with like exploring a few different avenues and maybe like testing new things. But through it all, I always knew who I was. There's the same message. Same message, core message. so what I think like from being somebody a follower and on the outside I suppose consuming that content that you do really well is actually there's like you say that same message but you can follow those trends really well and you can get you know those moments that people are eating I remember when the tuna cardo and it was a big phase I mean it's still a phase for me because I had one before you came here long live tuna card I remember my sister sending me she's like there's a healthy one because em's done it you know and i think those moments you do really really well and you've got a way of being really reactive which is important right when you're dealing with that online community so important yeah to be reactive in that way and be able to go okay this is what everyone's talking about let's see how we can bring this to life yeah and i think when people complain about things like algorithms and engagement it's because in all honesty often it's because you're not giving the people what they want and content creation and influence is not a vanity project or it's not a vanity project anymore yeah people care less and less about you they care more and more about what they want to consume and what they're going to find valuable yeah so i think if there's anyone who's listening to this and they are trying to kind of grow on social media or or get more engagement on social media you really have to kind of work out okay like who is my audience what do they want what do they follow me for and also like if i was watching this would i find this beneficial and sometimes we can get so lost in trying to like reinvent the wheel that all people want sometimes is a lasagna recipe i think what did i post the other day i think yesterday i like i posted like this um grilled peach hot honey cottage cheese toast flu then I came up with this really ingenious like super unique like transportable frotato loaf recipe flopped but it's one of these things it's like but then also there's an argument that you actually sometimes don't know what will land like something I suppose sometimes you can have that fluke you're like god if I'd have known people were going to go mad for that I'd have made five of them the week before yeah we've just done toast this whole time we've just been doing toast for years it's so funny everything always leads to something right so and I really believe that so you're doing you're doing your course you then have a handful of clients then they ask you to get on social media and then that kind of evolves and then you're sitting on loads of followers and then you get a publishing deal so was that always the plan did you always think one day I'd love to have a book because that makes perfect sense right did you always think to yourself I'd love to have a book I'd love somewhere to hold all of these recipes or how does that look because I when people go from online in a like a in a recipe vein to a publishing deal I always wonder how that looks and if you're conflicted on what you do because you want people to buy the book but at the same time you're known for being really generous with your time and your recipes and giving them for free.

31:30So is that quite a funny, is that something that's quite hard to articulate, knowing how many recipes to keep posting whilst you're trying to promote a book? It's such a good question, actually. And I mean, the book kind of happened very organically. I've always, like, Nigella Lawson's always been my muse. If I just think about that kind of, like, evocative, like, sensuality and, like, joy of food. And I remember sitting down at Christmas and like can't wait to watch her little like tv episodes she was the cookbook that my mum used to plop down in front of me and it was like sticky with all of the pages and we always used to make the chocolate cake out of it for everyone's birthday so when the idea of having a cookbook like for me it threw me back to those moments it's like i can't wait for people to just have this in their kitchen in their family home entwined in their life and and like someone sent me a lovely message the other day being like look i loved following you on social media but you know it's so nice it was just ingrained in my family life now because you're always on my kitchen side that's nice so there's this level of like tactileness that I don't think people can ever take away from books and it's why I don't like I mean my cookbook hasn't been any sort of competition for my social media but people love it all like there's always room to kind of like try new things and search new things but a cookbook has that more kind of like final homely foundational kind of like loveliness and there's always that lovely thing of not having to pause a reel to be like hang on what does she do next even though sometimes so i i film the reel and i change the recipe slightly and everyone goes berserk they're like what do i do do i do the video oh the recipe and it's like follow the recipe in the caption yeah and you're allowed to adapt it a little bit it's okay yeah oh i absolutely hate coriander i'm like don't put it in it's fine See, isn't that so divisive?

33:18Coriander is the most divisive herb ever. It's like marmite of herbs, isn't it? I love it. I love it. I love it. But my favourite ones are when I do like cottage cheese pancakes and someone turns around and says, I don't like cottage cheese. I'm like, don't make this pancake recipe. There's so many other pancake recipes. There's a simple way out here. This isn't for you, hun. It's fine. It's like with my brand, someone wrote to me the other day and our thing is, you know, our ethos is everything. like every single product whether we've done vitamin gummies whether it's toiletries everything is infused with organic coconut oil we're called my little cocoa that's what we do hi i'm allergic to coconut oil so i'm wondering if i'm like no i get it or like i can't can i use another scent i'm like no literally every single product has coconut oil we're probably not the best brand but thanks for like caring and asking but are you sure i can't use this no still the same rule of love the public we love it we love it um so let's talk about writing books because i've written a cookbook before and have to tell you em i love it and i was very excited it was a sunday times bestseller and i was like how because i'm just a mum just doing the things i feel like are working it's called at mama's table and it's recipes that work i'm like a fan of just cooking one meal yeah but making it work for everyone and that was kind of the reason for the book and i loved it and we did it over lockdown and it wasn't actually supposed to be a thing I was on the phone to the publishers and they were like what are you doing and it was just a zoom catch-up because all we did was zoom and I was I'm just cooking that's all I'm doing I'm cooking I was pregnant and I just was like really nesting and we then developed a cookery book which I love and I love so much but what I found so hard was the like I'm such a glug of this glug of that stuff that in mix type of cook it's not really methodical and then breaking it all down and the recipe testing element and I had a great recipe tester that then did that alongside me and I'd be like this is what I use this is what I do I'd be like on FaceTime to her over lockdown and she would then go and like do the exact quantities that bit I'm like this is really and then they're like you need this many more recipes I'm like I this isn't my job I cook what I cook and I and it was a period of time that I love because I tried lots of different things and like adapted things to kind of make more out of it and someone said to me the other day are you gonna do another cookbook I'm like no girl I'm not because I own this is this is literally what I cook and this is like you know that when you grow up and everything's on rotation like the kids know there's gonna be a shepherd's pie on this night yeah this night's gonna they know how that's gonna look is it something that because you're sharing recipes as you go and obviously that's all you do is it something that you're like oh my gosh like there's a lot more to this people don't realize writing a book is difficult right you kind of when you actually go to bare bones of it is it something that just sort of started writing itself or I think I was born to write recipes because I write them in my brain do you fully out my brain and is it hard to like make sure it's different to the last one do you know i don't know i don't know what it's like it's like telling like a songwriter or singer like how do you cover new songs yes like how do you like make new rhythms and sounds and beats if you're a producer it's like it comes so naturally to me like it's my talent 100 % i would admit that it's my calling it's my talent it's my passion it's like breathing it's like creating art for me and i'll be able to look at something and tell you the weight, the grams, like millilitre, all that stuff.

37:02So I can literally just write that recipe straight out. And what I'll do with my reels is whenever you see a video, I have just gone to the shop, picked up ingredients, like a concept I have in my mind. I'll go home, I'll film myself making it. And then based on how I've made it, I will write out the recipe with all the kind of grams without ever measuring anything based on what I found together. Wow. And that's how I got it. Can I just tell you, if you're listening to this, that's fucking impressive because I genuinely, that's one thing that I remember when I was talking to the publisher. I'm like, guys, I do not know what goes into this and that's when I got a recipe tester.

37:44Yeah. God, I should have had you. I'm a bit busy, babe. No, no, no. This is way back when. This is way back when. We'd have had a great time together. We'd have had a great time. um but that that is like that is such a skill set I know yeah like yeah wow that's beyond I'm I'm I'm in awe um which brings me to my next question when you feel like you've cracked it and you've delivered this book that you're so proud of then you go again so then you've got another book is that a hard thing to kind of be as because obviously this is your passion right and obviously you're always going to be passionate about this but uh was it a case of okay I didn't include this or is it taking a whole new route to the previous book so I like I'll often refer to just all the like wonderful copies of again nigella lawson's books i had and my mom always had like three recipes from that book two recipes from that book that she absolutely loved and what i wanted live to eat to do is basically just be a continuation of so good so when people want new recipes and and they crave the same thing of like of the food you want to eat designed by a nutritionist it's kind of just book two for that and the hardest thing was trying to narrow down the recipes that i wanted in it because the best thing with my social media on my Instagram is I basically get to road test all of the recipes and the ones that people go back to time and time again, the ones that people love.

39:15And there is some repetition with ones that have been featured on my Instagram and then inspired to kind of be in Live2E and obviously new ones as well, but that's just what works for people. And it's about trying to make eating well as easy, simple, straightforward and accessible as possible. that's what my books will always be and I mean So Good and Live to Eat are definitely kind of like a pair of just like really great recipes and then I think with like book three book four we can get a little bit more specific like I've always loved Nigella Express so I want to do like a quick speedy recipe book I always love the idea of like hopefully when I have like a family of my own doing like yeah like that kids and family more like sort of concept concept driven books yeah and I do you like fact because you hear like writers you know that write novels or like self-help books like take periods of time out to foe to focus on that and going to complete book zone because often you find that the first one sort of writes itself because it's that thing that you've been gearing up for for so long but doing it again is that like do you focus time to say okay we're in book mode I've now got to try the load of recipes for that I'm so interested in this i feel like i just want to come and like live in your kitchen i think about recipes and food 24 7 365 days a year like there's not a single day that i'm not thinking about like you should see my notes they are just like organized chaos so it's like the books are always being written always being written and i'll literally be on a walk with my husband and he'll be talking about padel or something and i'm just like hold that thought and i literally whip my phone out and i just type like three ingredients that just come into my head of like something that i want to make and i'll just put it away and then i'll come back to it so it's it's it's constantly this evolution of recipes and they will be inspired about real life so a few weeks ago like i was constantly traveling up and down i was constantly on trains in cars and normally i have obviously the luxury to be able to just like cook at home prep at home like make my lunches i didn't so i had a pain point of like okay i have no time i need to prep something that i'm actually going to enjoy and eat what can i do so a lot of my recipes actually perform really well are born out of like real life pain points yes so i think that's where it just like i do food not because i think it's going to look pretty on and not and because it's trendy i do food because it's like actually what people will make and want to make and they're going to find beneficial in their life we all need to eat do are you like does everyone get really nervous when you come around for dinner petrified I could so see it do you know what's so funny my mum is like the most my mum cuts up a pepper she's probably going to kill me for saying this cuts up a pepper with her hands so she'd get her thumb she'd push the top of the pepper in rip it in half and then just like prop the things off like pop them in the chilli corn carnies and I'm just like mum that is not the proper way to do it because obviously I've got loads of chef friends now so I feel like I've picked up like a few of tips and tricks you'll be like the dream dinner guest of a conversation but everyone's terrified to put something i'm like does she like it is she looking like she's smiling does she love it i eat everything like i'm not fussy and to be honest just give me like tomatoes salt olive oil and like warm bread and like whipped ricotta and i'm just like like love oh yes yeah you're right sometimes it's a simple thing isn't it i want to talk about how obviously these have been like real stages of your career so far and everything for you like it's fair to say you've had rapid growth in terms of being in sort of the public and in that sort of space like from when you were on everybody's radar I feel like it seems to have really skyrocketed for you let's talk a bit about Epitome because one thing I love myself as a founder I do I get very very excited about the kind of concepts and the creation of a new business and a brand there's something that that moment where you can feel that idea really come into life is something that I just want to bottle forever like it's that feeling like no other to me um where did the idea come from and was there a gap that you set out to fill so I still have the Pinterest board from literally just when I graduated university of this gut health clinic concept I always wanted to start because gut health was like my love like it was so interesting I used to work with a few gut health clients doing personalized meal plans just kind of like food advice for people who are suffering with IBS and bloating and food sensitivities and it's become like an epidemic like it's it's everywhere so many people are suffering from gut health issues and it affects everything it affects our mood our anxiety it affects our skin it affects our immunity it affects like how well we absorb food like pretty much everything from a 360 angle our body is all affected by gut health and I in the same way that I love how my recipes are actually able to make a difference I've always loved the idea of creating a brand founded on actually helping people and I I think the biggest issue with the supplement market is loads of supplements out there, especially the ones that are kind of like influencer founded, they are white labeled products.

44:44So they're not actually developed. And with that in mind, with that in mind. So I was very, very lucky that my my husband's cousin was a very successful entrepreneur. And we had many kind of like a dinner and a Christmas and stuff, just sitting, chatting together. and I would tell him about my ideas. And I remember they approached me probably like a year and a half ago now and they're like, do you want to do something together? I said, yes, but we have to do it my way and it has to be exactly like this, otherwise I'm not going to do it. And we kind of ended up setting up Epitome. From the ground up, I built every single thing from the strains, the exact strains that went into the capsule.

45:28And I always say probiotic strains are like white T-shirts. you can get one from Primark you can get one from Coz you can get one from The Row just because they're a white t-shirt doesn't mean they're all kind of built the same so you invest in what you want to invest in especially as a brand looking to actually help people in a brand with integrity so we chose all of that we have this amazing duo cap which has this like biphasic system where the outer cap releases first with these kind of gut supporting nutrients then you have the inner cap that has all of the different probiotic strains inside that then gets released at the right time where it's meant to be And it's honestly one of my proudest achievements now because the amount of people who life changing reviews and we do this gorgeous thing where we actually live interview our customers.

46:14So we get them on a Zoom call and I talk to them and like, tell me about your journey and like what's what's gone on and how has Epitome helped you? And there are like life changing stories that we're collecting from our amazing community of this product that I care so much about in an industry that I feel needs more kind of like integrity built into it. But it's actually making a difference. and it's it's so interesting because this is exactly what you set out to do from you helping those handful of clients you know when you're a straight up nutritionist and all of this other side of you hadn't existed so it's so nice to see that consistency everything feels like it fits into my story and my journey and my purpose I think as well which is really nice and I think I've had a few other ideas down the down the road and my husband's turned around to me it's like stick to the strategy because sometimes we get all excited we think we have an amazing idea but it's like we have to make sure that it's staying true to who we are again otherwise the people who know us and and kind of like follow us get confused yes exactly that do you obviously that side of it and the kind of purpose behind the brand is what you know like you like you say you can the recipe of your eyes shut this is kind of so in the bones of you how about the brand execution how about what was there anything you found a little difficult away from what you know best so the branding the marketing the strategy the numbers the finance was there anything that because the other side of it is so you and that's like what you eat and breathe was there anything that you kind of were like i just don't know where to start here i'm gonna give it a go but i just don't know what i'm doing so definitely the best thing that i delegated was that kind of a to b kind of marketing and ad testing so we have a full marketing team behind epitome um shout out chelsea you are the heart and the soul of epitome like we wouldn't have been able to to build it without chelsea she's an absolute legend um but she does all the things that i'm not very good at right so she she is much more kind of is able to kind of keep all the blocks building step by step by step um making sure that kind of production's fine at the right time because when obviously when you first grow like you put a lot of investment into things and then you need to sell in order in order to kind of make the money to be able to redo the investment we talk about a lot the cash flow is always the kind of any new brand that's the starting that's the first sort of stumbling block because you need yes it's selling well but then you need the cash flow to place the next order because you need to keep it on in stock i remember when we first went out of stock i was like ready to party and everyone was like no no no no no this is logistical night we went i didn't know that i didn't know that it was it's my it was my first business i'm used to being the face of people's brands so if i sold out i'm like great there goes my get my bonus now fabulous but obviously it's great because it means the demands there but then behind the scenes I just remember that first that first sellout being like oh okay this isn't so joyous this is more like okay now off we go yeah um did you understand the kind of everything behind the business before you launched it no but I'm very lucky that my business partners were very kind of like successful like previous they built a previous brand and sold it so all of that infrastructure was there and I've learned so much and we were basically able to take my dream product I literally built from the ground up and just stick it into exactly the same engine and model and it's kind of it's one of those situations that your expertise is in the is in the actual product itself and knowing what needs to exist and what gap you want to fill but it's quite when something is your baby it's of course you know you've got the right people around you to trust in but it's quite a it's a mature way of thinking because there are so many different founders that I sit down and talk to that are actually so hell-bent on doing everything themselves because you're like this is my baby I want to make sure this is executed right it's so important to know that it's an option to delegate early on and And Epitone would not have grown in the way it's grown if I didn't just put my entire trust in the team.

50:50And also they put a lot of trust in me. God, I remember the sleepless nights just before we were about to launch. And when you do a product like this, I mean, our clinical trials are underway at the moment. I'm really excited to get those published kind of like latter end of September 4th. but it like we launched and and we had to kind of trust that my concept of the product was good enough and I mean thank goodness like it has and I and I believe it would be because I try to use as basically every single bit of I've read every study every strain all the bits and bars before putting it together but yeah I think knowing when the right time to invest in the right help can really be the difference between you growing and then skyrocketing yeah and like a year down the line epitome's a year old now we just celebrated a couple of weeks ago and our subscriber rate is incredible amazing and we are like like each month even though we put a lot of money into ad spend like we're profiting as well which is just like so like almost like unheard of unheard of in that space so early on which is phenomenal and and that i think it's a testament to the product i think it's a testament to our kind of marketing strategy and our plan and and our team um and also just like letting our customers tell the story yeah it's that that is what's so important having that constant direct communication with those customers as you say making sure they're really kind of involved what what does your day-to-day role look like at epitome now like a year in celebrating your year birthday has anything changed from a year ago in terms of what you do and your involvement yeah i mean when i obviously launched it we were very very reliant on me and my brand to create awareness and growth so to get it out in front of many people as possible i'm the kind of routine for doing kind of like the pr and the magazine was like an ambassador as well as founder exactly so i was that face but i think with any business that you really want to kind of grow it can't ever be reliant on me so i now kind of take a little bit of a back um step when it comes to kind of content creation and ad creation we're kind of growing that out a little bit more and now i really drive just kind of um product integrity new product development where are we going next what are we doing in the space and just making sure that the the brand stays really really true to kind of who we were when we first started and even when we're talking about new product development now like i speak to the team i'm like it has to be just as useful and helpful as our first skew and i don't want to just keep on like like trying to just rapidly expand and just come up with products that we think people want to take it's like yeah it's like no no no what do people actually need what's actually going to make a difference if they're going to spend yeah their hard-earned money on something and every time it's like it's not cheap but it's not going to be cheap because we don't do a cheap process we don't use cheap things but i want someone to invest in that and be like that was worth every penny yes every time and it's almost like you say when some brands scale so quickly when you're sold a product and it's an investment and it's something that is guaranteed to perform a certain way it then can become a little bit confusing when there's constant newness.

54:14Hang on, I thought this was the thing I was waiting my whole life for. Do I need that as well? Especially with the supplement space. Yes. And it's so oversaturated. Because I think, as a consumer of supplements, I'm like, I rattle when I walk. I'm like, I'll give anything a go, honestly. I'm like, tell me it's good for me and my gut and everything in between. I'm there. But it can be overwhelming. Not everyone is like me where my friends think I'm mad where I'm taking this for this and that for that and this before bed and I love it oh I love it as well yeah yeah but not everyone is in that same space they just want to something they can trust and that they can rely on what do you think has been you know in its first year it's still a baby right what do you think has been your proudest moment so far

55:02it has to be when I just get those out the blue messages on like a Tuesday night of someone being like and it always starts timely I don't normally do this or I never normally message anyone but I just want to tell you how much you've changed my life and those messages I screenshot them all and I keep them in a little folder and the days that sometimes I feel a little bit more stressed and overwhelmed because like I have my fingers in many pies now so there's like lots of different parts of my brain that have to focus on lots of different things but it's the core reason for it all and I go back to the very very start of my journey and I think about that cheese roll moment where I was just on my kitchen floor crying because I couldn't eat a cheese roll to reading those messages now and thinking about how my life now impacts so many other people's lives and my ideas and my thoughts and my creative concepts have this like positive like effect on so many people like that is just it's amazing like I don't think I let that sink in yeah and I don't think that will ever get old no you know having those moments will never never get old do you is your setup because obviously we and we speak a lot on this show about scaling and you know when businesses are in their infancy and taking on outside investment and really wanting to sort of I suppose reach as many mouths as it were at once is that something that you've thought about yeah we've had a few chats with vcs now but I think it's one of the things that we're so good where we are yeah that we don't need to give anything up for outside investment to continue to grow in the way that we want to grow yes so I think it's it's we don't want to kind of jump the gun and be like okay still soon still soon yeah like for me as i said like i care so much about the brand and the product that i don't want to get anyone else in who's going to try and change that yeah i always remember like the reason why i ended up going with a publishing house that i went with for so good is all the other publishers wouldn't let me call it so good so we can't call it so good i was like what do you mean it's like so good's my thing it's like i eat food and i'm like so and i said like you say so good and people think of me like i've managed to trademark so good which is like mental and yeah there was one my my my publisher george and he was like no you can call it so good i was like cool i'll go with you then and imagine if i let other people's opinions change what in my gut i knew was right so which seems just ironic it's like if you believe in me and you're going to publish my book because you know there's weight in that the title is kind of irrelevant it was always going to be called so good and if it's not going to be called so good it's not happening yeah you're not doing it yeah and it's knowing that and being but it's almost testament to being brave in those situations and trusting that you know yourself and what you do better than anyone else than anyone outside of your circle because but that's a hard thing to do particularly if you know you've not got experience of publishers beforehand and this is it's a good thing to hold your own and know your worth and your value in those moments and I'm so lucky that like my husband is my biggest cheerleader and support like I would not be as successful and where I am if I didn't have that love and support through him because every single moment of like wobble of confidence or self-doubt he's literally there like no you're amazing like you're you've got this and he'll always be the person that I turn to and can ask for advice and and trust his opinion even though sometimes we do disagree because he's like what do you mean you don't agree with me i'm sorry i don't agree with him this one sometimes you're like this or this yeah that one you're like no no i think this one yeah why did you ask me babe you're gonna do it anyway i'm like yes i am just needed just needed to say it out loud sounding bold that was all i don't actually want your opinion no we love them I'm going to do a rocket round now which we do on every show and it's supposed to be quick fire so whatever the first that comes into your head what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business?

59:25Clear defined strategy and knowing who you are as a brand I love that when did you first realise that you truly launched? When the first sale went through, I guess. Yeah. For, oh, no. When I was in a cable car in Italy and an Italian girl turned around to me and said, I love your recipes. And it was like a random, tiny little town in Sicily. And I was like, wow. Oh my gosh. Yes. Sometimes it is those kind of conversations that you have with a random person that you're like, on their radar. For me, it was my nan. I remember she said something and she was like so impressed with what I did. I didn't feel like she saw anything.

1:00:14She saw this one thing and I was like, oh, okay, maybe people know what I'm doing. Maybe this band I'm in is not doing too badly. It's so funny. What's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? Go for a morning walk. What sort of time? 6am. Oh, okay. That's good. Thank goodness it's bright outside. Yes. and then take my magnesium right before bed. Oh, nice. Love that. One piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to? Do you know what? I don't think there's been a piece of advice that I've listened to that I've regretted. Ah. Honestly. I like that.

1:00:54I think that's why I don't have an answer. You've had good people advising you? I have, and I think I've always been the person who if I don't want to do something, I'm not going to do it. Love that. you're not swayed by like outside noise distraction no that's so good so so good what's a skill that you'd love to learn i'd love to be able to play the piano just so i can jump on like some pancreas or something and be like i love that just so i can jump on just greeting people and then they're way back from paris we're outside the blank street yeah pop to mns afterwards I just love that that's your reason.

1:01:36Is it shallow? I love it. Just next time at St Pancras, I can play for the Eurostar. What's one thing you wish someone had told you before you started your business? You're going to fail. And you're going to have days that feel impossible. But unfortunately, that is just part of the ride. That's what you signed up for. That's what you signed up for. and it's this beautiful, incredible, chaotic rollercoaster and you have to remember that just because you're down, you're not out. Yes, that is because it's so hard at the time when you're in it and you're in the trenches to sort of get your head above it, but actually it's all temporary.

1:02:22And I think we spoke about this a lot. It's like separating that if something does fail and it doesn't work out, that actually it's that thing that hasn't worked out. It's not you. Exactly. You aren't defined, it's not defined by you. People swimming. It's that moment. Yeah. Exactly that. Oh, I love this one. What would be the dream brand collab for you? If Epitone was to team up with another brand to do like, you know, a gifting suite or a press trip. You know, you're seeing a lot of this now. Brands come together, which I love. I think it's genius. It would have to be. I mean oh my god I stayed at Grand Hotel Tremezzo in Lake Como and it was absolutely incredible so maybe I could just do a brand takeover there oh my god stay there for a week but you know I'm very lucky that all of the brands that I think are on like my manifestation board I have worked with Marce & Spencer's just like up there like my absolute favorite I want Dyson as well because I like everyone always asks me how I do my hair and I'm like Dyson Airwrap oh Airwrap is just I mean what an invention best thing ever for someone that like is lucky enough to get their hair done for work when I'm like left to my own devices it's the only thing that I can deal with honestly like and sometimes I just if I've got a shoe I'll just do my own hair because I like how it looks for the hair wrap and then I do there you go epitome and hair wrap it's got a ring to it if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be probably nigella just because i feel like she is such a perfect example of like how to build such strong brand identity yes her she's nigella lawson you know exactly who she is and that you can hear her in your head and i just love i feel like she's just such a strong example of of how to to be she's christmas to me is she like i look i really growing up that it wasn't christmas until you'd watch like some sort of Nigella special like she just really like you say she's got that real strong identity that you recognize and I think she stands like she's just the perfect example just stands the test of time yeah you're so right there we go um each episode I ask our guests to leave a tip so sort of one piece of tangible advice to women looking to launch perhaps in the same sort of space that you had if you was to give one piece of advice to a listener what would that be having the right people around you can really make the difference for you doing well and you becoming very successful and i think sometimes it can feel very isolating if you are trying to to do something yourself and also quite intimidating of like oh who do i turn to what idea kind of can I lean on someone else with but honestly I couldn't have done all the things I've done truly without the people who I've built around me over these last few years it's so true it's like you you might be the person at the front of everything but always behind you are like a team that are clapping and holding it down and there for the wobbles and the everything in between it's so so important to have the right crew around you isn't it yeah it's life-changing like and i like my lovely manager danny who's around the corner like he's he's a legend and i couldn't do it without him and i know sometimes i'm a bit grumpy and moody and sometimes don't do this today he's always there he gets it that's what you need and then lastly i ask everyone because i'm nosy and i love food but you also love food so you're not going to find this too weird um we talk about ladies looking to launch but what about ladies who lunch and i was going to ask you how you typically spend a lunch hour on what you would eat but actually i feel like you kind of have to eat with your job like you're constantly recipe testing and constantly cooking so where i'm going to change it up a little bit for you if you were going to book somewhere for your dream meal let's say in London because we're in London right now if you were going to say okay after this we're going to go for lunch and it's going to be we're going to order my favourite thing at my favourite place where are we going because I'm about to book it after this and what are we eating?

1:06:59So we're going to go to Dorian and Notting Hill and we're going to land and we're going to have crab rosties to start God you are so prepared for this I just did that on the whim and you are prepared I love this I literally live and breathe in food and restaurants where I spend all my free time then we're going to have the chicken parfait toast then we're going to have tempura longuistine then we're going to get sharing steak bone in ribeye potatoes bernet sauce whatever size that they have and then finish with every single dessert on the menu I'm so hungry and I'm so booking myself Dorian I FAP can we just like get that print that out for me guys just soundbite that clip just so I can I mean I promise Caroline that I'll take her so you should come come along with us let's just do a big lunch oh my gosh me and you and Caroline Hirons that's it brilliant thank you so much I've loved talking to you loved hearing all about your journey and as you know I've been kind of watching on the sidelines and the fire going woo yes and making your recipes but it's so I appreciate your support so good to have you here thank you thank you I love that thank you

1:08:13don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure you don't miss out because next time we're going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched if like me you're a watcher then follow us on youtube and please don't forget to like and subscribe