Ep 46: How Sarah Chapman Built a Skincare Empire: From Facials at Home to Industry Leader

0:11Today I'm joined by Sarah Chapman, the award-winning facialist and entrepreneur behind her namesake skincare brand. From treating some of the world's most famous faces, Sarah has taken decades of hands-on experience and transformed it into a science-led product line. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Thank you so much for being here. I feel so lucky to sit and talk to you. You know that I'm a big fan anyway. You know how much I love your products and your facials. Thank you. So it's so nice to talk to you not being like this. Yeah, we can look at each other face to face. instead um one thing that I sort of discovered quite quickly when I started this podcast that actually when I sit down with these incredible women I we talk about everybody's stories but actually what I realized quite quickly is that their earlier lives always have a big impact sort of across the either the business that they run or the person that they are today and I think I'm always so so interesting we have these conversations I'm like well that makes sense because you've kind of always done that or you know it's kind of it really really interests me so let's talk about your childhood and the Sarah before we knew of you yeah funny because I really had to think about that and think about what are the things that that are sort of relevant and I spoke to my mum the other day so she's told me quite a few things that I'd completely forgotten so um I um I moved a lot when I was a child because of my dad's work so we sort of changed homes probably every three years so um I think that that's probably why I like change you know a lot of people are afraid of change but actually I really like change so um so yeah so we were always in different countries we were always living in different places um and um and my parents were kind of hard working they both left home when they were 15, I think.

2:11Right. And then they were really determined to kind of create a life for themselves. So my dad always had, he worked and then he often had evening jobs and my mum always worked. So I think being around that all my life as well has probably given me the kind of the really determined work ethic. Working was normal. And also, you know, we talk so much, don't we now, about females and working and my mum was always working. So to me, that was just natural. Yeah. so that was the kind of environment that I was in and I kind of I started to get into sort of beauty things quite early on and I didn't really realise or really think about this but my mum was telling me yesterday I was talking to her so then one of the places that we lived I used to have to go and pick up all the rose petals when they fell from the all the rose bushes and my mum used to make rose wine out of them but I also used to get sent to pick up the horse manure as well so I kind of had a combination of different smells and I do remember that um and the smell of the do you know really old-fashioned roses where you get almost a granny rose and it's dewy and it's fresh and it almost like makes your mouth water it was those kind of really pale pink pretty sort of succulent roses that they would then make wine out of but I'm sure that because if we look at my products and everything now there's a there's a there's rose in pretty much most things and I think thinking about that that's probably where those smells came in and then we they lived in Spain for quite a long time and they had three frangipani trees in the garden and if you pluck a frangipani flower from the tree it almost secretes this milky fluid which smells like that vanillary creamy sort of cashmiri frangipani I've also got that in my overnight facial so these are sort of things that were when I was much younger that I probably didn't actually really think about until I listening to your podcast knowing we were going to talk about child of kind of brought all this into into one sort of space I thought actually that's really interesting yeah and it's almost like tapping into kind of what you were learning yeah but like subconsciously and not really yeah sort of that registering yeah and that actually obviously then got into my sort of senses and we all know like with smell it's it triggers so many different things doesn't it and it triggers memory and it gets into the limbic system in the brain and so it does does things to you that's why if we smell something it can take us back to different experiences so obviously those were planted in in those sorts of early years when I was between sort of six and ten my parents then moved to Norway and there they settled because he changed his job my dad so they settled there for 20 years so from the age of 11 upwards that was my home wow and so yeah and Norway is such a beautiful country but completely changed life I went to boarding school when I was six so I was very young but it was because of where they were living at the time so I spent a lot of time with my grandparents at weekends that sort of thing so and then big holidays with my parents so we have a really strong relationship um because I think every moment that you were together was so precious quality time yeah so I'm very close to my parents but they encouraged me really I suppose to just sort of do whatever I wanted to do because I was quite rebellious so at school I was always in trouble um and everyone's like really I don't see that yeah I know um so I was I was in trouble all the time I was kind of the always the naughty one leading everybody astray um getting into trouble for drinking getting into trouble for dying my hair purple all the time wearing too much makeup I remember in one of the sort of parents evenings that my geography teacher saying to my mum, I think Sarah might go and work in boots.

6:12Yeah. And I think I was, I must have been 16 or something. And it's like, because I was constantly, I think my Saturday afternoons were spent in Superdrug, actually. Right. In the makeup area. And I would kind of spend all my money on getting makeup and then I would do whatever I could. And now I look at the pictures and I think, that was a very interesting style. It's all character building. Yeah. But actually, when I got to the end of school, they did this thing where they kind of put in, I don't know if you answered a questionnaire, I can't exactly remember, and they put in the details of what subjects you'd studied and it would come out with, this is what you should do with your life.

6:50And mine came out as a lorry driver. What? Yeah, so I'm sitting at school and they're like... What were you putting in? I don't know. Because I'd studied geography and whatever it was, French, and so I decided that the geography teacher was probably the closer to what I was going to do and work in boots. So after school, I actually came to London and I trained as a makeup artist. That was the first thing I did. And there was a girl that I knew who was actually at another school and I found out that she'd come to London and done this makeup course, which I had no idea existed. Right. This is a long time ago.

7:28So now we talk about makeup artists as we talk about teachers. We all know there's makeup artists and what they do. but way back then that wasn't it wasn't it wasn't the thing so I came to London and I trained as a makeup artist I did sort of fashion photographic makeup then I went to Australia and I did special effects so I did kind of blood guts and gore and we did I did some horror movie mini horror movies where we had to do a lot of dead people and we did actually a quite an interesting project with the Sydney Harbour Tunnel where they staged a crash and we had to make all the people at various stages of injuries.

8:07So I think I had two people. It's like a first experiment. Yeah and then they basically planted everything in the tunnel and then they called the ambulance and police and they measured how long it took them to get in, get everybody out. So it had to be run like a proper operation and it's because the lady that ran the course that I did, her husband or boyfriend was the lead of the police so they'd engineered this whole thing so it's fascinating but quite an experience to be in a place where you've literally got people walking around looking like they've broken their legs or there's a piece of glass through the neck or whatever it was it's like a bad dream yeah it's like a really bad horror movie I don't like horror movies um so so that was a really good experience in in Australia and then I came back to London and then I got kind of much more into the beauty side of training so when I was doing makeup and photographic makeup I could see quite a lot of issues with people's skin right and we would spend ages just trying to fix the base and they were with a lot more sort of heavy makeup than we would use now because makeup has become so much more sophisticated stage we were like all that thick pancakey sort of stuff um and I thought why can't we fix the skin and then the the makeup bit's going to be much easier and that's how I sort of ended up going into the rest of the beauty world but I actually ended up training as an aromatherapist um and doing all massage your products yeah you see that with the smell yeah that makes so much yeah so um I did all massage and all the anatomy and physiology part of that and actually had the same textbooks as my friend who was training to be a nurse so I sort of did quite deep deep training on sort of body work and everything else and then full beauty nails I trained as a hairdresser.

9:52Wow. I tell you, it's because I didn't go to university. So my dad used to say to me, you've got the rest of your life to work. So just, just study. Doesn't matter what you study. Go and do things, do courses. He said, I don't even care if you do underwater basket weaving. And it's like, what is that? I don't care. I don't care. Just go and do. So I was really lucky. I did literally training in sort of everything to do with beauty from, from facial facials to body massage to hairdressing makeup artistry nutrition I mean a whole thing and I think that's really shaped sort of what I guess what I've kind of become with so I have much more of an interest of your whole well-being and longevity and skin it's not just the superficial looking at skin it's thinking about it on a much broader perspective I mean it's so so interesting and it makes perfect sense like you say and I think when you're in that world of and I think it's it's actually so much more common now because I'm talking like years of like that girl band makeup which for me was like really like uniform and really stage yes stage makeup but now makeup artists care a lot more about the base underneath because we all know that actually of course good makeup can only shine if the skin is good right yeah exactly I think now it's it's a conversation that I think is sort of filtered down a lot more and then also with that like you say good skin of course using the right products and getting the right treatments but also what you're putting into your body I feel like the conversation now is a lot broader than it once was that we're really aware that it's all part of the well-being too where at what point did you because like you say you then studied and have been a sponge and sort of absorbed all this information and studied in so many different areas at what point did that kind of that missing piece of the puzzle fit when you kind of stumbled upon actually skin is my passion um I worked for I first when I came to London I worked for a health club so sort of managing the clinic the sort of salon part of it and um and I used to meet with all the reps that would come in from different companies whether it was the nails or skincare or whatever product it was and I thought that looks quite good fun so I went to work for Darfan which is yeah beautiful French aromatherapeutic skincare and so as I I didn't at the time it wasn't I didn't go to them because I thought I've now got a passion in skin I just it was a role as more of the I wanted to do that kind of sales rep right um part of things and then I think I just got completely into it so I had all the base understanding and all the core knowledge because of everything that I trained in and then with them it sort of went deeper and further and that's where I became sort of quite obsessed with skin and skincare and so I worked with them for quite a few years sort of sales and training and sort of across the board and then I got sort of headhunted by I don't know if you know the range environ it's very um sort of medical vitamin a based skincare yeah and it was set up by a doctor called dr fernandez in south africa right and um they were coming into the uk so they i went to work for them as part of the core sort of three people initial team and um and that's where i learned so much about skin and skincare and he was the sort of pioneer of using retinoids so it was like that was my first introduction this was years ago um and so I just I I kept learning I kept seeing things and I just became obsessed with it really it's so like for me I feel it's so interesting to hear you talk about like other people that are pioneering certain things because for me I'm like your name is so iconic and it's so obviously I know everybody has to learn and earn that from somewhere but it's it's so interesting to see how work is filtered down through you and I suppose in doing that and in practicing and training in that world skin and confidence are so aligned aren't they I remember being at school and a friend I was really lucky at school where friends of mine suffered terribly with their skin and you can literally see a person shrink when you don't feel confident in your own skin I know that's literally a saying and a figure of speech but it's there's so much truth behind it and for me it was really after children I remember after having my second child I then got quite bad pigmentation and it sort of softened a little bit but it's obviously the hormones around it and then I got quite bad acne and it really and I think I don't know because I work in the sort of tv space that it really sort of knocked my confidence and I didn't have that as a child so working in that space must be so rewarding when you know how much you can help somebody yeah 100 % and I think you you I mean absolutely nailed that it can literally people can shrink if they they lose all their confidence and skin you can give somebody a facial and they're glowing and they come out and they literally blossom and they feel amazing and there's there's there's so much of a link between that sort of psychological well-being and the sort of physiological kind of part of skin.

15:24And we talk quite a lot about how we treat both the physiological and psychological. Because you get all the physiological benefits of key active ingredients, skincare that really works and everything like that. But you get that psychological from the smells, the textures. And in treatment room from the touch. You know, when somebody comes in, it's not just about skin. It's about how are they today? How are they feeling? What's going on with them? they come in with a load of baggage of something you've got to help sort all of that out for them at the same time as actually sorting out whether it's to do with redness rosacea acne pigment whatever it is that's actually physically going on on the skin so I think that you can you can make a huge difference into how people feel and as a sort of practitioner that makes you feel good because there is actually something that happens if you receive gratitude from somebody actually releases serotonin, dopamine and stuff in your mind.

16:21So you then start to feel better and it creates this cycle of well-being and positivity. And I think that's, you know, people still say to me, why do you still go in the treatment room and do treatments? You know, you're so busy with everything else and with the brand. But for me, that's where that whole thing happens. Yes, yes. And if you get somebody who uses the product and then says, I use it and it makes me feel so good and thank you so much, that feeds back to you, that helps you to feel better and more confident and to release those kind of great hormones and the feelings of sort of feeling good.

16:55So I think skincare and any kind of treatment side of things is all about confidence, well-being, feeling good, and you're sort of tapping into all of that as well as actually, can we fix a spot or a line or a pigment or a bit of redness or zap a vein or whatever it is that we need to do how after working for other companies and then obviously I suppose your love growing and that sort of your bond with skincare and the treatments growing deeper when did you sort of was there a light bulb moment that you thought to yourself okay I'm not because listen none of us are reinventing the wheel right but we know that we've got we love something we adore it but we know that we can do it better and we can there's bits of this that we could take and shape and put our stamp on it when did you sort of think okay this is the right time I want my own clinic and I and obviously the brand will get onto that too but how did how did that sort of come about kind of by accident actually um so I was working for a television company a home shopping network from the US who had launched in the UK and I was their beauty presenter right which was a sort of you do sort of four-day shift work so I had bags of time to do other things and um and one of the ladies that I know who actually became quite a mentor and for me she had a fantastic list of clients that she treated for years she at the time was much older than me and she said I'm moving to Australia for a while can you look after some of my clients and I was like well I don't really do that anymore and I'd worked with her for years with the brands that I was working with so I used to sort of train her in new products or techniques and then we would have these great conversations and brainstorms and she said oh please I don't trust anybody else please please please can you take on some of them I've looked after this lady for 30 years and I can't put her anywhere else and in the end I sort of said okay so I literally did it from my front room I was living in a one-bedroom flat and we'd sort of move everything out of the way put the bed up and in would come the client and uh and that was that was it they then told other people who told other people and then it just grew and grew and grew and then we moved so we had a bit more space I could have a separate room which was the spare bedroom and then it just was getting busier and busier and then when when people would turn up on a sunday and weren't here for the appointment and i'm like no no it's sunday i thought i gotta get this out of home now i'm not open today leave me alone i'm in my pajamas this is my house yeah um so then i took a room in draco avenue and then sort of built out from there so it really was sort of accidental it wasn't it wasn't me sort of standing at the beginning and yeah saying right right, and now I want to do treatments and I want to have a clinic, et cetera, et cetera.

19:52It wasn't that at all. It was genuine word of mouth and kind of building from that, which is lovely. Which is incredible. And that's how the best things are built, right? So you then sort of get your own space that isn't in your house. So you've got kind of a little bit more personal space now too. And then, like you say, this is snowballing and you're very busy. at what point do you kind of want to separate from using everybody else's product to bring in your own products to the market yeah I don't know exactly when that kind of point came in I think I was already thinking about it so if I well quite interestingly actually I obviously thought about it way before I think I did if that makes sense yes I was talking to somebody recently So Nikki Kinnaid from Space NK, the NK of Space NK.

20:47I will get into that when we talk about the brand. But obviously, I met her many years ago and before I'd launched my products, actually when I worked for Darfan. Right. She is now working with me as a consultant with the brand, which is amazing. So I've known her for many years. And she said to me recently, you know, when you took me to Paris for Darfan on the way back on the plane, you told me you were going to have your own range one day. And I'm like, no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't know about that when I worked for Darfman. She said, yes, you did. So it's really interesting. So obviously it was in there somewhere, right from way, way back.

21:21Isn't that funny that that's a conversation that you completely forgot? Yeah, completely. And even though she's told me it a few times now, because I don't quite believe it, I still can't remember that conversation. You know, it's just not in my mind at all. But you put it to the universe. Yeah. And then it done its thing. And then I was working. So I was doing the facials for all of these lovely sort of clients that I got. I opened the first room and then we sort of expanded to two rooms, three rooms. It got busier and busier. And I had this one client who I absolutely loved. Great fun. We used to have really great sessions.

22:00And she said, and I was already thinking of what the idea for the product was. It was already there because I was mixing so many different things together. and she sort of said to me one day oh I had this friend come to stay she said and she went in the bathroom she got this big glass pot and she opened the lid and scooped out this lovely rich cream and put it on and she said I just felt so envious because I had my sticky tube of stuff that you'd sold me hiding in the cupboard and I sort of put that on and all I had was your voice in my head saying but you're going to look fantastic in 20 years time but she said why can't we have that efficacy but feel great while we're doing it so that was the sort of moment that I knew exactly what the product needed to be and I think that is that's and that's exactly like as a consumer that's exactly what I would look for like I want to know that I'm doing the right thing by you know you who looks after my skin but I also want to have I want that like sort of indulgent pamper every time because washing your face at the last thing at night I mean you either can't wait to get your makeup off or it feels like a chore yeah oh gosh okay just quickly I need to wash my face so if you can make the best out of it make it feel good it's so yeah it's so true that that's exactly what you want so that so that conversation almost triggered okay this is there's a gap here and this is what's needed yeah and I think it was already forming in my head and I think that that just was that sort of final piece yes so so it's like why can't we have something that is so powerful in terms of its efficacy that the core of it is tried and tested ingredients like retinoids peptides etc that we know are going to physiologically change the skin and make it so much better but at the same time can't it look beautiful in its packaging can the textures feel amazing can it smell fantastic so that every drop that you use you get that psychological benefit it you feel good bring the pleasure back into skincare take the chore away from it so that was the whole sort of thinking of of the sort of concept of the products and what I wanted to try to do which we were already really doing in the treatment room because every sort of treatment we did even if I was microneedling which I started doing like 20 years ago with my clients they were wrapped in a duvet and a cashmere blanket everything was soft everything was beautiful they were feeling good and I would mix in Santa Maria Novella floral waters with things so I'd get that rose water which probably goes back to that childhood memory and then I used to have sort of oils like Darfan type oils but I'd mix them with the sort of technology of retinoids and environ products and some skinceuticals at some point that I kind of bought in so it was mixing those kind of cosmeceutical products with the beautiful oils and textures and then how do Do you, how, and then during the treatments, people would say, obviously afterwards, God, my skin's improved so much, my skin's so much better.

25:02But all the way through the facial, they're like, oh, that smells nice. Oh, that feels good. What's that? Oh, that's nice. And then they'd go home with the products which were much more functional. Right. And then miss the elements that they were getting in the treatment. Yes. So there was a real sort of disconnect between the two sides of skincare. Yeah. And when I created the products and I first talked to Space and Care about them, there was no section to put them in they didn't know where to put us that's so interesting yeah was now there's lots in this space yeah but they literally didn't know where to put us and why what was how did it look in space in k at the time they had either the doctory scientific brands or they had the sort of more natural or plant-based darfan yes um things like that they didn't have anything that was a hybrid yeah yeah that's so interesting so i think i can't remember i think they put us basically between the two yeah so you were you were literally bridging the gap it's are you science or are you natural well we've actually got a bit of all of it yeah yeah yeah um that's so interesting because now you go into a space in k and it's there are so many sort of brands that have also tried to claim that space which is which is so interesting that you were you were the first yeah this is where i always think it gets interesting because it either you either your brain is skewed that way or it isn't you're so well versed in the product and the treatment and the kind of process of it all how when you realize that you want to create the product sort of strand of the business how did that look for you because obviously you know what you want and in terms of development and sounds like you were blending your own potions and lotions for a long time before that anyway but in terms of the business side of it did that feel daunting to you no and I tell you why it's a no because I had no idea I was completely and utterly naive about business if you know what I've been in sales I could tell something but I didn't have any idea at all and I think in a way that's the beauty of it you know they say if you can if if it's like that, if you're that naive, it's actually really great.

27:13Because otherwise the fear factor would come in and you would think, I can't possibly do that. Whereas I didn't have that. I just didn't have it. This thing was in my head and it wouldn't go away. And I kept thinking about it. And in the end I thought, I'll just give it a go. What have I got to lose? And then I didn't know where to start, what to do. Yeah, that's always fascinating to me. Where did you start? Was it like visual first? Well, it's always been product first. you've kind of been doing that all along but what was your first port of call well I trained in cosmetic science right so I went to study because I thought I know about products I've been using products my whole time in treatments I know about skincare but I don't really know no right I can't look at the back of a pack and understand an inky list I need to learn this and I need to do more so I went to college and I did cosmetic science so we I was in a class with people who were working at Cote's and Unilever and wherever that were proper sort of chemists I had no idea but I learned a huge amount obviously in that and and and just about the language of it how it how it works but also the language of it and know what a homogenizer was and how you can create an emulsion and what's the difference between a oil and water emulsion or a water and oil emulsion so to get the actual science behind it but then to be able to converse with the chemists so I think that it was it was learning that piece was hugely important because when I went to actually start developing the products I knew what could be done and what couldn't be done.

28:45Yes. And so I wasn't white labeling a product I wasn't taking something which was sort of off the shelf or simple I was able to really craft products that were completely different and completely unique. And was that in the order of okay I want a product based business I'm going to go and study I think so yeah yeah it's so impressive it's so so impressive because at that point normally people would say if that's not their strength and what they already do okay who do we yeah who do we find here to help us bring this to light but actually at that point go okay I'm gonna I'm gonna learn about it yeah I mean it's incredible absolutely that's again probably goes back to your dad saying keep learning and keep pushing yourself in that direction.

29:33And I think that, you know, when I was sort of, I guess, about maybe about sort of 15, 16, my mum says, you know, school holidays, I'd be mixing up strawberries, oats, bananas, eggs, and making face masks and putting them on her. And actually, at the end of my beauty college, the sort of final project I did was actually all about raw ingredients and what they could do, like oats full of beta-glucan. And so we know it's anti-inflammatory. It's good for the skin. Lactic acid in milk. The seeds in strawberries were whitening for toothpaste or whatever. And this whole sort of project I did was based on that.

30:10And I made recipes. So my formulas have got a bit more advanced now. That's for sure. But that was way back when I was like a teenager or just gone out and gone to college. So there's definitely a sort of history. And I quite like creating things. I was quite crafty when I was a kid. I liked school holidays, I'd make things or draw things. So I kind of like creating stuff with my hands. And just being hands-on and being creative in that way. And what about the other side of business? Because as I said, you either tap into that creative side or you're like the numbers and the finance and the planning and the strategy.

30:49Is that something that comes naturally to you? Not necessarily, no. It doesn't mean. Yeah, definitely not the financial part of it. I've always had a brilliant person helping me with that. And obviously I understand a lot more than I did at the beginning about P &Ls and everything else, but that's not necessarily my forte. On the organisational and execution and things like that, I'm not too bad, so I'm quite organised. So when I started the business, it was just me for quite a long time. So I had to do my first ever spreadsheets, organizing stock, where was I shipping packaging from, dealing with the orders, the POs, the invoices, getting that to the warehouse to get into the retailers.

31:35I did everything. So with my finance lady, Heather, who still does everything with me. So she did from when I opened my first treatment room, she's done all my sort of accounts and she built out the whole sort of business model for the clinic when we expanded for products. So she's been by my side the whole way. And I honestly, genuinely couldn't have done it without her because that's not my forte. At the start, even when something isn't your forte and I'm with you, it kind of has to be. You have to learn it. And when you're kind of in this position where you're like, I just kind of like creating this and I'm more of a creative and this is actually quite challenging.

32:14And I think obviously now you can look back and of course it shaped it and helped because you do have an understanding of everything. But at the same time that you're trying to sort of keep clients happy and make sure you're in the salon enough, but also running the product side of the business, like it's quite, was there a space where you ever felt, and now it's probably different but was there a space where you ever felt a little bit torn because once you launch it so once you get it off the ground that's a whole job and a team's job in itself let alone being needed in the clinic too yeah yeah um definitely there's been moments where that way it's like you've got one foot in one side and one foot in the other and it's like you feel I suppose it's a bit like if you with with children if you've got children you're feeling like you're slightly neglecting one and you're not spending enough time with the other so there's definitely been lots of times throughout the whole journey where it's like that so I try to balance it out um I think that's definitely been been hard I think now it's it's it's a different dynamic obviously but at the beginning I was so yeah and also at the beginning I was so passionate about what I was doing I'm still passionate about it but I was so I did it 24-7 and it didn't, you know, it's that whole thing of if you're doing something you love it's not like work, it really genuinely didn't feel like it.

33:39If I had a spare hour I'd want to read a book about skincare it was just my world entirely so it didn't, there's actually when you can work 7 days a week and sort of 24-7 there are a lot of hours in the day so you can manage to sort of do everything. I don't have that stamina anymore so I'm going to try I work a bit more normal hours now. Yeah, but as everything grows, like the salon and the clinic grows and the product side grows, you know, the stamina then, as great as your stamina is, it becomes unrealistic because there's only one of you, right? And you're needed because you've got to make decisions and you've got to sign stuff off and that can't happen without you.

34:16But then, of course, you're great at something. Everyone only wants to see you. So it's kind of, it can be, and I suppose that's where the team is everything because you kind of, I suppose, they are performing your practice, right? Yeah, and I think on the treatment side, it started, so I had the one room in Draco Avenue, and then I just got too busy, and that was doing six days a week of facials. I couldn't fit anything else really in. And then, so I took on my first sort of therapist and trained her up. And then it just kept going. We took another room in the building. It was sort of higgledy-piggledy building above, near Daphne's.

34:53So we could hear like the clinking of wine glasses outside. It all felt very kind of cosmopolitan. And then we got a third bit of space in the building. And so each time I took somebody on, trained them in all the methodologies and techniques. But it was really hard at the beginning to get anybody to move from seeing me to seeing somebody else, like you say, because it's like they want you. But we've managed to do that through the years. And I think because I'm really particular about who we employ for treatments. they've got to have the fantastic hands they've got to have the right manner and they've got to have really good experience but then when they come on board we train them for another nearly two months so we kind of almost strip back everything they've learned and we teach them the massage movements literally by pinpoint of every single movement and stuff so when somebody then ends up sort of saying all right well I'll see somebody else because you're not available they get a great treatment so they're like actually I'm really happy to go in between the two of you So over the years, that's managed to evolve to now sort of nine treatment rooms and 32 therapists in the clinic and everything else.

35:58I mean, that's what you call growth, isn't it? Yeah. I want to talk about the first day the product launches because that's like, I mean, we, you know, we're only kind of five and a bit years old. and I celebrate every birthday because I'm like that moment of seeing product on shelf or getting feedback of a customer using it or loving it and then the next challenge that you then face is that repeat purchase and the fact they keep going back for more and it becomes a staple in their house there's kind of no feeling like that what take us back to the first day that you launched how was that for you?

36:38I think yeah I mean you know from having product it takes years to get to the point where you're actually going to get it there and actually it took me a long time because I worked for I think probably four and a half years to get the first six products and I worked with teams of chemists here in the UK and I couldn't get to the point of the products that I wanted right and I think it goes back to that we were talking about earlier because I'd had the cosmetic science understanding so I couldn't sit and create it myself but I had a deeper understanding I was really pushing back a lot with the chemist to say I need more I need more I need more of this ingredient or whatever and one of the chemists said to me I don't know why you want so much of that particular ingredient I think it was a vitamin A or retinoid you know because you can put 0.000001 % on and still claim it on the pack at which point I said I don't think we can work together anymore.

37:26And anyway, I actually went to the US to do my first formulas. So it was an interesting story, actually. So I'd been, I'd been probably digressing from what you asked me, but I'd been struggling for four years to get to the point of getting the formulas that I wanted. I was so crystal clear what I wanted in them, what I wanted them to do, how I wanted them to feel. And I'd pretty much exhausted all the best labs and people in the UK. And I couldn't get to the point everything that they were sending to me was in unstable because I was using no parabens which is now normal but it wasn't normal 16 years ago I was putting in all those essential oils to create smell not masking with synthetic fragrance high levels of active ingredients using lots of kind of oil-based ingredients to get all the amigas and all the nourishment and to get that balance and the product not to fall apart when it's been produced was really difficult.

38:24And I was at a party in Tuscany, which sounds very fancy. Sounds gorgeous. But one of my great friends, she sold her business, which was Sandra Pay Tanning. And she's got a lovely place in Tuscany. And she had a birthday party. And I was there. And she's just the nicest person and just has such an incredible group of connections and friends. and it was a three day sort of or two or three days time and I realized on the very last morning there was one person that I hadn't spoken to and it had been such a social time you'd made sure you talked to everyone because everyone was really interesting and so at the breakfast I spoke to this person who basically in the conversation gave me the name of my chemist in San Francisco and said, I think you should talk to this guy.

39:15And I phoned him. I think we got back. I phoned him on the Wednesday and said, look, this is what I'm trying to create. This is what I've done. I'm really stuck. And he said, prove to me you're serious. Get on a plane. Come over here. And I'll give you two of my best chemists for a week. And that's what I did. So if I'd not spoken to that guy at breakfast, and it's fate, right? If I hadn't spoken to him, I would have never known about these labs. I just wouldn't have had that knowledge. it had been hard enough to find out about who would you go to in the UK. And so I went over and that's where we sort of did the first formulations.

39:50That's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. But life is a funny way of like opening the right doors at the right time, if it makes sense for you. But also brave to just go, okay, sod it, I'm going to get on a flight. Yeah, I know. I know. I think I was very brave in those days because it was that naivety piece. And I just had this, honestly, this sort of end of the road goal was that product. and I could see it. I knew what it was going to look like. I knew from the beginning it was that taupe colour. I had a jumper and I had a pair of trousers and it was going to be that. And everybody said to me, you can't do your packaging.

40:23It's too masculine. That's not right. Skincare is white. You have to make it white. And I was like, I could have had, it was such a vision at the end. And so you were asking about when I kind of launched and when I first saw it on shelf, which was in Space NK. Space NK is like the best beauty shop ever. And it was like, you know, 20 years ago or 15 years ago, whatever it was. And because I'd been sort of presenting the product to Nikki throughout the sort of time of development, and she was really behind it, we got to launch In Space NK. Incredible. And so it went on the shelf. I could see it, obviously, on the shelf.

40:59And when I was standing in the store, somebody bought it. And that, for me, was the moment. You can imagine it, can't you? I can almost feel it in the gut now. It was like, oh, my gosh. It's like you just get shivers over your head. and it happened the other day and I was with the children and they were like, Alaya was like, tell them it's yours, mummy, tell them it's yours and I was like, they were just going to watch and you can see someone reading it and I was like, she's either going to put it back or she's going to walk away and she went, put it in her basket. Yes. Such a nice feeling. It's surreal, isn't it?

41:30When you kind of, because you can become the whole sort of process unless it's like the people that really know you, it's quite lonely and it's quite like into it and you're trying to get this thing off the ground and you think you're onto the right path and for you the years and years in development and it it can become quite a lonely thing particularly when you are it's all you think about and you're obsessed with it and it's morning noon and night but then to see it and you almost hand it over to the world at that point it's nerve-wracking but it's so exciting yeah because you're also thinking is anyone gonna like it yeah they're gonna buy it i love it but is anybody else gonna like it and then when they get it home are they going to use it all and then they're going to want it again yeah now and it was interesting and I think one of my big drivers to to get the products to the sort of excellence or whatever that they that you want to call them is because I had that incredible client group who I'd been treating their skin and I'd been using brilliant products on them and I kept saying to myself it's going to have to be better than all of those yes otherwise how can I sell it to them how can I with integrity recommend it to them if it's not as good as Enviro on if it's not as good as any of the others it's got to be better somehow this has got to be better than those because otherwise I can't justify it and then if they all come back and they want the other one again because they don't like mine that's not going to work because that's going to be a big piece of the business yes so so my mission was constantly I was comparing to everything that I'd ever used and thinking this has got to be better it's got to perform better it's got to feel better it's got to look better and you've got like the best focus group ever like when you're using and testing these products and and particularly you know the relationship between you know someone like yourselves and and a customer it then it's quite a special relationship isn't it so then you've got a trusted set of ears you've got you know you've you can test it in like a really safe space yeah and a really genuine way I mean I think of sort of the handful of the clients who some of them were looking at packaging for me one of my clients had previously worked with Estee Lauder years ago as marketing director at Clinique yeah like a long long time ago so she would look at stuff for me I had others that would test product and feedback on textures and things right in the very early days where I sort of was just starting so they not only could be great sort of feedback from their own sort of skin perspective and a client perspective but I also had this connection to people who had such broad backgrounds or understanding or thinking but also all different types of skins and different ages so I was able with the sort of client base to have that as you say incredible focus group and obviously since that moment the the product side of the business has grown of course and how what do you think because I was I was reading here actually reflecting on two decades in the industry the product side of the business has grown but like you say a lot's changed right when you launched in Space NK you kind of were literally bridging the gap and there was nothing like it at the time because you kind of you were mixed you're a mixture of everything what do you think what do you think success now looks like to you today because you've had growth in sort of all sides of your business what does success now look like to you because I'd imagine it's changed somewhat yeah so what does it look like today now or what could it look what does it look like to you now what does success mean now because you've kind of had, like I said, such growth on both sides.

45:14How do you define it now? It's really hard. I think we've still got such a long way to go. I still think we're really very small and there's so much more to do and so much more to grow. We're successful. I think the brand is successful. It's really loved and I love that. That's brilliant. We have our clients coming. Some of my clients have been coming for 20-plus years. so all of that but I still think we've got a load to do and a lot to prove and a lot of growth to do um that's so interesting to be successful I think you never you would never feel like you've made it or it's a success because there's always more that you can do and I'm such a I'm such a forward thinker I never look backwards it's just like I hated history at school but I never look back when somebody even talks about year on year growth you know when you're doing all your sales stuff i don't care what happened last year no it's like where are we now where are we going so that's that's sort of naturally my mentality always looking at the road ahead yeah so success we've had lots of elements of success but i think there's hopefully lots more and it's not to be put on top of that and you know what's so funny i sat down with sunday riley and her outlook was exactly the same she was like i don't she was like i don't feel successful she was like i'm just because I know what it's like to not be so I'm kind of always in a place where I just want to keep going and you know how does success look like next year the same you know not looking back I don't ever sit there and think wow we've done incredibly well yeah that's a luxury that she's just said I've never had even though of course we're in all of these retailers and yes I know we perform very well but I just don't I don't feel successful in that way that's It's so interesting.

46:59It's sort of the same. And people quite often will say to you, you know, stop and think about what you've done. And you're like, yeah, OK. Yeah, it's quite good. And it's important from time to time. And yeah, you know, it's not we're not this enormous brand. And so I think it's yeah, I think it depends on your personality type as well. Yes, agreed. And I'm really I'm kind of I'm just a worker. I like I kind of love working and I enjoy it and I love what I do. And so it's sort of, yeah, it's just always trying to do the best. And I think, you know, so much of what we do is about integrity. Yeah.

47:32And like, you know, if I'm launching a new product, I will drive everybody in the office mad because they all think that we've reached the point where it's fantastic and we should launch it. And I'm saying it's not quite there. And I think keeping that consistently, that sort of attention to detail and that real sort of integrity in everything that you do might mean that things take a bit longer, but actually you build something much more solid. Yes, yes. So, yeah. And I think it's so refreshing to hear that because I think we're in this generation now and I see these like memes going viral and they're like, done is better than perfect or, you know, launch now, figure out the rest later.

48:12And I've always been like, oh my gosh, no, I just want to get it right before it gets to anybody. And I've always been of that mindset. But I think we're in this sort of, everyone wants everything yesterday, right? And I think particularly with social media, it's like it will feel like you're talking about the same thing forever if you spoke about everything in real time because when you work on something and there's a billion revisions, it takes years. And I think people, it's all kind of about getting it now and everything being so accessible that I kind of love that. But actually, of course, good things come to those who work.

48:48I know, I was like, we're like the tortoise. We're the slow and steady race. we're getting there in our own special way but we don't compromise on anything we keep staying sort of true to our vision true to our lane you know if I look back at the facials that I was doing 15 years ago when we launched the products to what we do now it's very similar okay we've got more technologies that we can bring in and things like that but actually we're staying very very true to it we haven't sort of diversified into lots of other different things and I think if you do that and you you keep sort of sticking to your your goals I guess you you might be a bit slower but it's also so interesting when I look at businesses now you know so many things that get launched get launched with investment and VC backing from the beginning or after the first year or after the first few years it wasn't like that when I launched yeah nobody talked about investment yeah so I haven't had any investment to this day so wow that's incredible yeah it's it's a very different space and so you do grow much more slowly you grow organically you consider every penny that you spend because that's out of your pocket you reinvest consistently and I think that's a very different space to that very fast new world that you're talking about where it's like yeah let's let's make it happen let's not think about it too much let's launch this let's make it happen And outside noise can be really distracting.

50:13Like I always think, and we talk a lot on this podcast about, you know, startups and how that looks. And there's so much that you see on Instagram with, you know, after the first year we did this or after, and we've got this big new shiny office. And, you know, that isn't, that isn't necessarily reality. And it's okay if it takes you a little longer. you know this is slow and steady wins the race sometimes right and I think it is like I said that outside noise can become quite distracting when you've got a goal in mind and you know there's another brand that have launched and this is working really well for them it can be you know quite noisy and I think it's it's a really nice quality to have to be able to stick to yeah your values and your brand values and how that looks and I think just yeah and not letting any of that kind of get into your head for you of course yeah which I think I've always been quite good at I mean I never even really looked for many years or you know who's your competitor and people used to ask I'm like well I just I do what I do yes what do you mean my competitor and everybody wants to sort of put you with other things and how are you watching what they're doing and actually I think if you focus really on what you're doing and what you believe in don't worry about what else is going on I agree and of course it's a much more competitive space now than it was um when I launched but you kind of I just you keep your head down and keep doing what you're doing yeah and it's so and I and I completely see that with your brand and I think that really does come across as that kind of real heritage you know safe I know where I am like I think and that really shines I'm not I don't feel like oh what's this is this going to be any good I feel like everything is so considered that as a fan, as a customer, as a consumer, I think you really see that, which is great.

52:04And that's interesting because trust is a word that's used a lot with the brand and with our clients. And your name. If you do it, I trust you. Yeah, exactly. Which is lovely, dear. Which says a lot about you. It says a lot about you. I want to do our rocket round now. And we ask the same set of questions to every guest. um it's essentially supposed to be quick fire round but sometimes we chat um the first question is what are the non-negotiables for launching a business for me I think it's resilience and tenacity because I think you can have all the passion in the world about what you're going to do but if you don't have those you'll never have a business so I think of those early days when I fought for the formulas and everything and all the challenges we've had along the way I mean we the lab that we did all our original formulas with it wouldn't give us the ip despite the legal agreements and everything we had with them so i found my original chemist i set him up in a lab in la we re-engineered the formulas and then we went to move them to a new factory in france just after we'd done that the factory burnt to the ground we got all our packages everything was delayed by 18 months you know there's stuff that happens all the time this year we were due to launch our vitamin c serum the beginning of the year um all product that entire production was coming over in a lorry and it got robbed at gunpoint in kent um so we didn't have that so you know you've got to overcome these challenges all the time and then there'll be other little challenges that happen every every day you know you know running a business it's like a series of problem solving something's happened how are we going to deal with that can't get there in a straight line how do we get around the side yeah so you've got to have that tenacity and resilience to just keep keep keep going you're right because passion alone you can be passionate all you want but if you can't get back up every time kind of passion you'll have nothing yeah yeah when did you first realize that you truly launched well I think as we were talking about earlier with a product it's easy to identify that almost because it's literally when that product is made and it goes on the shelf and somebody buys it yeah um but actually also in the first six months after i launched i i won a cw you know cosmetic executive women award for best new brand and that was in the first i think it was after four months wow so those two things i think launching and seeing it on the shelf in space nk and then winning that award we've got something yeah people are getting this yeah exactly that what's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed?

54:40First thing when I wake up, stretching. Literally as I get out of bed, it sort of starts. So easing everything up and stretching everything. And then I sort of have quite a morning routine. And then in the evening, massaging Ultimate Cleanse into my face, washing it, and then lashings of overnight facial as I slide into bed. Overnight facial sits by all the things. That's my routine. Is it? Yeah, yeah. And do you love it? All of these little things now that I put the overnight facial on. You're probably going to tell me this is not what I'm supposed to do. But I've just gone. I'm going to be honest.

55:15Is it MediCube? And it's like a little... I know, I've seen it, yeah. It's supposed to get the skincare in even more. So I put the overnight facial on and I go in with that. Nice. And that's what's on my bedside at the minute. That's become my little... Nice, I like it. I haven't tried that gadget, but I have seen about it. And I keep thinking I should try it. It's got lots of different technologies on it, right? like yeah like the red like the blue like all the kind of different ones but I've actually really really like it yeah good and overnight facial is that my clients call it the full stop at the end of the day it's because they're like whatever's happened the minute that I inhale that scent smell yeah and that's where that's jasmine rose frangipani tuberose the exotic sort of and then that cashmerey texture that moment like a spa day yeah it's like that vibe isn't it it's Because that smell of like a spa.

56:03So you go into sort of relaxation. And that was one of the first products I launched. And it's the number one oil in Space NK. And it's been our number one seller since the day we launched. That's incredible. People love it. It is incredible. I do remember in the early days, some of my clients saying, oh, I was at a drinks party the other night. And they were obviously all your clients because all I could smell was overnight facial. You need to do a candle. Yes. You need to do a candle. Exactly that. what is one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to I don't think there is one because I didn't listen love it I literally didn't listen if I did overnight facial wouldn't be called overnight facial because everyone said nobody will understand you need to call it a night cream or something I know and now everybody says it's a genius name take the fun out of it yeah I would have probably I wouldn't have had the color packaging I've got it would have been white boring packaging um I probably wouldn't have had the brand if I'd listened to people so I think I was a bit I don't know what to say not obnoxious but I was just so kind of in my own space yeah I didn't care what anybody else said because I thought I know what I'm doing I love that that naivety piece yeah so not from an egotistical way it's much more of a naive but I've got this I've got this thing at the end I can see and I'm going to find a way to get there but that's but that's like the most part of being an entrepreneur right you've you can see it and not at the beginning not necessarily everybody can yeah but then they jump on when they you know yeah you know some people are a little bit more visual and also in there yeah because if you if you're doing what everyone else is doing then you're not challenging the norm and then you're not innovative and you're not bringing something new to the market because actually you're just doing what everybody else is doing so you almost have to not listen yeah other people and just people have to be ready for it that's kind of what it comes down to right um what's a skill you'd love to learn for me well it's probably loads I actually always say you never stop learning yeah I say it to my therapist it's like you never stop learning there are so many things I'd love to learn but I think an area where I really would love to understand more is tech and AI and everything thinking that because I'm hopeless with tech stuff great if you give me a laser or something in clinic I can tell you all about that but general general sort of tech and but it's evolving so much I think even people that I know that are incredible at that it's that's every day's a school day right there's always a new upload or a new day however that looks like it's constantly evolving I know changing so fast but it's also an area you can't wing it if you don't know about it no no no I can I can find my way around other things, but it's like it's a different language.

58:43It's a whole different kind of thing. So that's an area that I think I would love to have more skill in. Yeah, you're right. I would too, actually. I've said they do like coding club at my daughter's school and I do coding. Like I feel like that's the future. Yeah. I can hire you. Yeah. What's one thing you wish someone had told you before you started your business? I think that's quite a hard one. before starting I wonder if it's more if somebody to kind of advise you to look after yourself I guess through the entire journey because I think you and it's not that you don't want to but I think you with such a passion and building a business you put everything into the business so whether we're talking sort of life or financially or whatever you kind of you put it all in and I don't think that's a wrong thing but I mean there were many years where I didn't really pay myself anything because you need it in the business or you know and if if something isn't going so well you you forfeit first because you always want to look after the business and the people yes and um and you could reach a whole point where you're like hmm I haven't saved anything very much and I haven't bought a house and you know so I kind of think maybe just somebody said actually you also have to look after yourself during the whole process because you do put it first yeah and I don't regret that in any sort of way but I think it would be interesting to have gone into it with a slightly different perspective yes and a better understanding of that yeah how it looks yeah what would be the dream collab for your brand I think and it would never happen but um it would be with Chanel so I was a skincare ambassador for Chanel for eight years.

1:00:32So I worked really closely with them on product launches, press events, different things. And I learned so much about that kind of true luxury, attention to detail. And I've never seen anything done the way they do it, genuinely from every tiny touch point. And I think that, you know, it's such a fantastic brand. I would love to be able to do a collaborative skincare of something really technical and modern that fits within the heritage luxury beauty of Chanel yes oh that would be lovely wouldn't it I could see that could you yeah I love seeing all of these big brand collabs now and it's almost like when I was saying this on another episode that actually at one point of time everyone every space it was kind of like everyone had their own lane and you've got to stick to it and now you're seeing like Nike and Skims like announcing a collab and like brands that you would actually never put together I find it really interesting I think it's really interesting it's a nice new way yeah of branding and I think it's just such a great way to reach more people yeah in a completely different way and in a sort of very genuine way you're not pretending to be something different but it's actually there are we don't all only like one thing we all have so many different things in our in our wardrobe in our lifestyle and our wellness routines whatever it is that you can partner with something that will appeal to somebody who likes the two different because the consumer likes both things yeah of course yeah but just obviously they just serve different purposes in their life I think it's so so interesting and lastly if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be you can think of a few sort of people but actually I think you almost meet mentors consistently.

1:02:24So I think one conversation with somebody, they could have been a mentor to you for that one conversation. I've never looked at it like that. Yeah, we kind of think, well, if we have a mentor, we're going to have somebody who's by our side for a year and teach us or something. We kind of think mentorship like that. I have had actually in the past some of that because I've been part of the EY and Goldman Sachs entrepreneurial programme. So you have a mentor for a period of time, business sort of mentors. But then there's also people that you've touched with throughout your journey. So whether it would be Nikki, who we spoke about earlier, or other people sort of through the industry.

1:03:01And it could be one conversation that's mentored you. So I think it's quite difficult to think about going forward, who would you really ideally want, past or present? but I guess somebody who would have a a real global bigger vision yes of what you could do but that was not from our industry because I think that then you are blinkered a little bit to the idea of possibility and thinking outside the box yes and to what they may have done yeah previously yeah you almost want someone who's just from some completely other sort of space of world but can see things in a different perspective and you're so right you do like over the course of like a journey and I you know hate that word because it's become so cliche but you do meet so many different people along the way and I've never thought about it like that sometimes one conversation can really spur you on or guide you in such a positive way and that that person might not even know the impact that that conversation had which is so interesting yeah which I think is brilliant and I think now there's so much more of that as well I belong to a group called buy women built which is yes yes i know them yeah so it's all about sort of female founded brands and one conversation that somebody can have within that can steer somebody on a on a different path in the business but they and so they've inadvertently been mentored in a way by somebody from a completely different industry and i think that's really interesting and don't maybe think about well i've got to find somebody who will tie in and be with me for a period of time and I've got to run everything by that's a different type of mentorship which is also brilliant if somebody feels like they need that and I guess I think at the moment because of the work that I'm doing with Nikki she's she's able to do some of that so I I think I mean you could go into the world of oh well I'd like to have Estee Lauder or I'd like this or I'd like that but no I think it's something way out of that yes because I always think it's been and it's what I've always done it's like think outside the box don't follow what's what's the normal do what's in the gut and I think if you do that you can craft something that's quite different special yeah exactly and I think it is like bringing sometimes bringing two worlds together when that's exactly what you do right yeah exactly where it comes back and I always say like you know with the skin you've got to treat it with with kind of intelligence and intention you know it's it's really thinking about it and if you do that also through your business I think you can you You can take it a long way.

1:05:31Yeah. And again, every episode, I guess leave a tip and I kind of try to make this like a tangible piece of advice to a listener, perhaps a lady looking to launch in a similar vein or, you know, are like really inspired to develop their own skin brand or however that might look. If you could give one tip, like one tangible piece of advice, what do you think that would be? Don't take no for an answer. So I think if somebody says no to you, genuinely to me it means no, we can't do it. But there probably is somebody somewhere else that can, and I think I learned that. Or they don't want to do it because everything is possible.

1:06:22I'm such a believer that you can do anything, and whoever you are, whatever you're trying to do, it's possible. you just have to find your route to do it yes so if somebody says no you can't do it move on to somebody else that can yeah it means you've asked the wrong person yeah yeah so never take take don't take no for an answer yeah and I mean there's many other things as well that would help you along the way back to all that sort of fighting and resilience but that's real testament to you and your story because if you had taken no for an answer you wouldn't have the formulations you now have you wouldn't have packaging you know yeah and it goes it goes on and on from there and your kind of tenacity and your persistent your persistence with making sure that you could develop the formulas you want if you'd have given up like you say and not you know studied and not done everything in between you wouldn't have the brand that you have today so it is you are testament to that yeah no it's absolutely true yeah and lastly a question that I ask everyone because we talk about ladies who launch but we also are ladies who lunch when we get time yes um if you had a lunch hour because i know this changes and you know we're running businesses and you are also service-based as well as product-based and you've got you know a busy diary i can imagine but if how how would you typically spend lunch hour where are you and what are you eating?

1:07:51I don't necessarily take an hour but I do always stop to eat lunch. Love it. I do always stop to eat lunch and I usually do it on my own. I don't do it in a meeting which lots of people do because I don't really like eating in front of people. I usually bring my own lunch in. So on a Sunday I soak like beans, chickpeas, lentils and cook those up. So I basically have bowls of them all in the fridge right and then each day I take scoops of brown rice beans etc and Simon my other half says do you know that they give you beans and rice in the jungle as punishment Marvin my husband did I'm a celebrity get me out of here and his diet consisted of beans exactly that's what I choose to take for my lunch I'll put some fresh herbs in it and I'll chuck a bit of whatever else in it but yeah that's generally what I'll have just to keep the energy going for the rest of the day yeah but not have something that makes you feel sluggish or bloated yeah so rather than and also because I like to stop and eat it I don't have time to go out get something stop and eat it so I figure if I take it with me yeah I can take a 10 minute or whatever it is pause and eat it properly yeah yeah see that's what and I kind of when we moved into this new space we didn't we had like a communal kitchen before and now we have our own kitchen here me and the team were like okay what we're going to do is we're going to start something called salad club and we're going to like follow you know when you share these recipes on instagram we're going to follow one we're going to make every day different and we've ended up having jam the juice every single day so you've inspired me today you've inspired me to actually do what I said I was going to do and be a little bit more organized we're going to leave the door there we go someday could be my meal prep day yeah good and actually it's so much easier than I thought it was going to be yeah it's so easy because you just do it all at once and then every day it's there and i would feel so smug just yeah exactly you're like look at me i'm like look at you on delivery i've got this um thank you so much for talking to me i've absolutely loved this it's been so nice to sit and talk face to face and not upside down yeah thank you you're honestly so so inspiring and i'm i'm so glad that you came and sat down and so just i'm so grateful to be here and thanks for all your kind words no thank you i love that thank you

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