Ep 47: Fisayo Longe on Building KAI Collective: Culture, Confidence & Growing a Fashion Community

0:11From a£6 ,000 loan to a global fashion brand, Masayo Longay has built Kai Collective into a powerhouse. known for the viral Gaia dress and loved by women around the world. Kai brings in millions in revenue each year. But behind the glamour is a story of grit, creativity and resilience. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. I'm so excited that I'm getting to sit down and talk to you. I've been such a fan of your brand and I know that we've got mutual people in common that we know. So it's so nice to sit and talk to you. And by the way, what an advert you are. Thank you. What an advert you are.

0:52I love it. I always like to start these conversations in the same way. And that's really sort of, I suppose, talking through your whole story. But the more that I have these chats, I think one thing really sort of comes to light. And that's that our entrepreneurial spirit and drive is really, it tends to be embedded in us. either when we were a little one or there's something that happened during our path that really sort of sparked that fire. So I want to talk a little bit about, I suppose, your earliest memories of life, of your upbringing and entrepreneurship. Who was little you? How did she look?

1:36Oh, wow. Well, thank you for having me here. Super cute in here. I honestly feel like I I was born an entrepreneur. Maybe it was my mom because that's like, my mom has always been the most hardworking, the most entrepreneurial person. But I always grew up feeling like I could be anything. I could do anything. There were no limits. And one time in primary school, I always used to come either first, second or third in class. Like I've always been obsessed with being the best. But it was funny because my parents didn't put that much pressure on us. they did like tell us that we were amazing and you know in life you need to work hard and you need to go for what you want but I think in me I've just never understood why I shouldn't be the best so there was a guy in primary school he was called Michael he always used to come first I always used to be second or third but most times it was him first and me second and one time my mom was like you can beat Michael you know I'm like I don't think I can I've been trying so hard and she's like this was when mobile phones started becoming a thing and I really wanted a mobile phone and she's like okay the only way you're going to get mobile phone is if you beat Michael so of course I came first and Michael came second and I still always remind him of that I'm like I beat you once got my phone and then that was it that was happy yeah the competition was done I love that and it's so kind of it's so interesting to hear that because I think where did you grow up first of all?

3:07Nigeria. Nigeria and I wonder if that is that cultural difference because here it's like you grow and that's exactly what I want to instill on my kids and there's a fine line of like instilling that but not being obnoxious but knowing of course I want you to believe in yourself I want you to think you can do anything because you can yeah because you can do anything and it I don't know if it's that real kind of and I don't know if you've noticed this whilst living here that actually there's a real sort of british way and that's to kind of do well but not too well yeah overplay it but don't play it too much yeah you know and it's kind of and for my kids i don't want that i don't want that sort of like the devil on the shoulder that whispers like but but maybe michael won't like it if you beat him yeah i want them to of course you can do that yeah and it's i love to hear that that was instilled at you in such a young eye we don't have that in nigeria we don't have that like what and i'm like i'm very very bold i'm very clear about the fact that i want to be the best i want to make a lot of money i love nice things i'm not like settle or don't be too much even in my dressing in my attitude i just i'm not scared of anything and i don't feel like i need to appear to be meek and mild that's not me whereas i feel like it's very british to just be like so you know settle and that kind of like if someone pays you a compliment it's like oh this old thing like oh that's a lovely dress and you're like oh my gosh I've had it years don't ask me no I'm like I made it yes and that's next compliment please keep going do you think and I like the like your honesty in that like I do I'm clear I want to be the best I want to earn a lot of money that's another thing that I think that actually women struggle and this is the reason this podcast exists right we're meant to struggle that to have that conversation and we're kind of taught not to discuss money that it's kind of uncouth or it's not you know it's a little bit grotesque you know we're taught all these things that we shouldn't do but we should discuss money we should be we should learn a lot more in my opinion we should be going after what we want we should be learning in school how to handle money what tax means how that looks and how if you know if for one instance that money does appear on your lap that we know how to look after it and I think we don't have those conversations enough I mean like I said you've been raised in such a way that I I aspire to be those parents by the way I aspire to to instill that in the kids what's your take on like conforming because I a lot of my friends my mum I was raised my you know my mum was a single mum So I didn't have, my mum has always taught me like, you know, if you don't ask, you don't get.

5:51And you know, if somebody gives you a no, it's probably the wrong person. Like, let's try this person. And that's always, I've always had that mentality. My mum was like hustling, working every job under the sun to kind of put a meal on the table. So it wasn't never, it was just like, as long as you've tried your best mentality. Did you have, did you put any pressure on yourself? Or did you have any pressure from anyone around you to perform academically? I would say I put pressure on myself and I don't know where that came from. I would say I had some pressure from my parents just in the sense of they've always been encouraging me to be a high achiever.

6:30Right. But it wasn't the sort of thing that if I came fifth in class, they'll be like, why did you come fifth in class? What's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think my parents have just studied their children and know our potential. So they know that some of us, if we came 10th, we were not trying hard enough. Whereas they know that maybe their other child is not that academic. They excel in other ways. And so for them, if they came 10th, then that's amazing. And that's congratulations. So they pushed us as far as our abilities and would take us. Does that make sense? And knowing, and I so get that, knowing what your potential is.

7:12Like if you come 13th in class, they'd be like, hang on a minute. Exactly. We know that you haven't tried your best here because this is what you, this is how you normally shine. And I think it is, it's knowing, it is parenting to everyone's ability and knowing what you put it best, saying study your child and you know their potential. What do you think you're, you said that you were born an entrepreneur and I love that, I absolutely love that. What do you think your earliest memories of being an entrepreneur are? Um, so I was obsessed with Destiny's Child. I lived in this like estate and I got a group of girls together.

7:50We called ourselves Destiny Girls. And we used to, very original innovation. And we used to charge our parents to watch us perform. So that was my first entrepreneur experience. But I also remember when we first had computers, my mom always used to try and make us do like an estate like newsletter. Okay. So that's a memory I have as well. I don't know if we ever got to the point of selling it, but I remember she was like, I'm getting a computer. I think you should learn how to do a newsletter. So there was always something entrepreneurial we were doing. Even when I moved to England, I moved to England when I was just turning 16.

8:29I found eBay. I fell in love with eBay. And I always used to help my friends sell stuff and take a commission. Because people just never wanted, people thought it was this huge thing and never wanted to go through the hassle. And I thought it was so easy. So I used to get commissions from selling people's things. And you're so right. That's sort of, I remember that period of time. And I was one of those girls that I had a friend that was like, I'll sell it for you and I'll take a bit of it. And I'm like, oh my God, I want to do it. But I just don't know where to start. I feel like that's what the AI has become now.

8:58Yeah. Like we're like, I want to sort of, I'm scared of it a little bit. Like I don't know what it is. It feels too new. You studied accounting and finance before moving into fashion, which to me feels like a massive leap but then when you think about founding a brand the benefits I wish that I had studied accounting and finance before being a founder did do you think your academic I suppose background gave you also a different skill set and a different level of confidence when I suppose you have that idea and that seed is planted for you starting your own business? Yes, I think studying accounting and finance was really helpful, although I was never a good accountant.

9:49So I was actually an accountant. I worked at KPMG for like three years. But I only studied accounting and finance because I was meant to study law. I needed three A's I missed my offer by a grade and then I took a gap year worked at KPMG during my gap year and then they said to me come and work with us full-time we'll send you to uni in the summer they had like a gap year program so that was why I studied accounting and finance not because I wanted to do it I actually found it extremely boring I was not very good at it and I actually ended up ended up getting kicked out of uni so I never completed my degree in accounting and finance I then started my business and I went on to study anthropology because I had a bit of a inferiority complex about not having a degree it would be different if I just never started a degree then I would have been fine with it but the fact that I started and I got kicked out I just felt like I need to get a degree just for my own confidence so I got an anthropology degree but everything I feel like has been really helpful accounting and finance was really helpful for running my business but so was anthropology I just found academic stuff very very important for different parts of my business yeah yeah yeah of course so you move here just before you're 16 yes you find your way on ebay and I suppose your that then drive kicks in you then go into accounting you're there for three years what's the next step into Kaya Collective being born when I missed my offer to study law at Warwick and I was going into KPMG for the gap year program I started a fashion blog right so that was in 2012 and that was just for fun um I made a little bit of money from it I think like a year after starting just off of um affiliate links yes but nothing crazy I never made money on on WordPress like an actual fashion blog yeah yeah um and so I just started to fall in love with fashion at that point and then in 2016 so when I would travel so even when I traveled um after I missed my offer and I started at KPMG which was I can't remember what year but I would I would travel and go fabric shopping make clothes with the fabric and then wear them on my blog and then on Instagram when that started and people would always be like, where did you get that from?

12:20And you don't have to ask me twice. When I like spot an opportunity, I was like, you know what? If people are asking me where I'm getting my clothes from, I can make clothes and I can sell them. So that's how it came about. And did you really see, was it something that was quite instant? Like, did you see that kind of real connection, that real engagement? Like people were constantly asking, you know, was that what really planted the seed? People were constantly asking for sure. That's why I started. But when I launched, it did not translate into like sales. Like when Kai launched, it failed. Essentially.

12:58I thought that because I had, I think maybe at the time, 40 ,000 followers, people used to ask a lot and people were very, seemed very excited about the launch. but then I launched and it didn't do anything um which was a huge huge disappointment for me so it just goes to show that sometimes the questions and the engagement doesn't it doesn't always translate into sales I just thought you know what if I have 40 ,000 followers 20 ,000 people are going to shop that's genuinely what I thought I've been in this mindset so I totally appreciate it's so interesting isn't it because you say you can have these comments and you can have these questions and dms and everything else in between but then i suppose when someone is ultimately asked to put their hand in their pocket it does it changes right it completely changes and that kind of conversion rate doesn't look it's not necessarily 50 it's shocking exactly it's not what you think so tell me so talk to me about you now launch you're traveling your people are asking you these questions what are the first products that you launch with and is it just you at this point is anyone helping you or how does it look my mom helped me in the beginning when we would like when I would travel to Turkey we'd go fabric shopping together um so meeting manufacturers helping with like original casting my mom was very very very helpful um but in the early days most of the journey was just me at least in england packing orders things like that um in terms of what we launched with i did it all wrong i did it all wrong i launched i think with 10 styles and it was just stuff that i wanted in my closet or stuff that i just found and i liked right and so i thought everyone was going to like it because typically when I would post stuff people liked it well I mean it's kind of you're building like a focus group essentially right you've got 40 ,000 followers you're posting affiliate links they're buying what you're selling exactly but now I didn't ask them about everything that I was going to launch so if I could go back in time I would have taken those 10 items and I would have worn them same way I'm wearing this so this is our tailoring um collection which I've been wearing since the beginning of the year and hasn't launched yet so I know that once this launches it's gone like the whole year I've been validating it I've been getting opinions I've been getting compliments I walked in here even the security guard said he loved my suit so now I know everyone loves this suit now I know that this is not going to flop if I could go back in time that's what I would have done but I didn't do that I wasn't asking about every single style I wasn't validating idea so I think we had one style out of about 10 that did really well and the rest of them I just struggled to sell them for like two years two three years and it wasn't even a lot of units I think the most units I made of anything was 50 these were small units but they were not selling and do you know what I think this is this is like a founder story like I've sat on this podcast with Amy Smale and she said everybody sees the kind of odd muses you know popping and she essentially said we launched through a few pieces they didn't all work we got it wrong the blazer went really well and everybody got behind that but people sometimes people only say it's the success it's like we say it takes 10 years to make an overnight success right and it does seem to fall in that vein do you think it's such an interesting strategy like you say that you've been wearing this suit or tailoring for a year to really sort of get a true gauge on if this is what people like and this is what people are willing to purchase we we spoke actually on this podcast a lot about and it's joe malone's concept she came up with something that she calls the pizza boardroom and she said it when you are a founder and you're an entrepreneur is often so so insular and so lonely that you think you've got you're working on this thing and you've got to get this stuff that you don't actually really ask anybody what they think at the time and everybody has a board whether you think you do or not you've got girlfriends that you trust or you trust their opinion invite them over for a pizza ask them some questions and get them to answer honestly and you've got your own sort of pizza boardroom she was like it will cost you a couple of bottles of wine host a girls night and actually ask people questions I think there's that fear of embarrassing that we don't embarrassing loudly now particularly of social media and so on that we don't ask questions that we should just ask yeah and it's it's easy to sort of look back and with hindsight see that actually I probably should have asked people what they thought of this where yeah you take things on that solo journey sometimes you think I've got this and I've nailed it when you when we don't always right and that's kind of what it's all about is learning and listening and really seeing who that customer is so that was actually the turning point for Kai as a business was when I started asking questions I never really felt like I knew what I was doing and honestly actually normally I would say I still don't know what I'm doing but I think after nine years now I do know what I'm doing I don't know everything there's so much I don't know but I always used to have this like real complex about not knowing what I was doing and not knowing people to know that I didn't know what I was doing so I thought if I asked any questions they would figure it out like oh girl she doesn't know what she was doing yeah so I think the first question I asked was something about our website how people found using the website because I could see that the conversion rate was low and I googled why conversion rates would be low and it was like it can be there's so many different reasons but one of them is the user experience of the website so i googled and everyone was like your website is terrible it's awful it's so compelling as well exactly exactly you have to be ready and but that was amazing because we were able to change it like instantly and that is what i love today about like social media instagram stories in particular because you don't even need to spend money on the pizza anymore all you need to do is put up a poll i put up one as i was walking in here actually because now this suit is going to launch in january but i know that in january people overspend in december and don't spend a lot in january and obviously it's tailoring it's going to be it's not going to be our cheapest item ever it's going to be quite um a high price point exactly so i asked do you guys want to buy this in January or February and they've told me February just by asking on stories I didn't have to spend a dime yeah and you're so right if you've got the luxury of having that community and that following and an engaged it could be friendship group though if you're starting out and your listeners thinking I don't have a following I don't have a customer yet it can be a friendship group absolutely everyone can do a poll you can do polls on whatsapp now you can put it in your girls group chat and like you say don't buy the pizza just send the poll um it's it's so interesting to hear you say that because there are so many learning you know you can even launch really strong or you can launch and grow up it doesn't mean that if your launch wasn't strong and you didn't do it in the way that you were hoping to you can then pull it back yeah so so let's talk about that then you you've obviously grown somewhat since since those original conversations that we're talking about so you put out those those you know 10 different items it didn't perform in the way that you'd hoped then what is your thinking plan for there so you say okay I'm gonna I'm gonna actively ask questions to people that I think would give me the right answers or that are invested in the brand and then you start with website and then what do you how do you kind of build a strategy from then or do you kind of is it not a strategy are you just trying to sort of find your feet yeah so I launch and it doesn't do well but I don't know why yet so it's not like an immediate I launch it doesn't do well and I'm like this is the solution I know that this is not working I don't know why it's not working I just think keep posting um take some pictures i'm just trying different things right i'm just throwing things at the wall seeing what sticks i launched in 2016 i launched in 2016 it wasn't until 2019 that i started to ask any questions like on instagram and validate my ideas so i'm just trying i'm just trying to keep the business afloat but this entire time i'm in school so i'm still a student I think the first time it was in 2022, what are we now?

22:19I've only run CHI full time for three years. Yeah, wow. All the other times I've either had another job or been a student. So I'm thinking, what else can I do for money? I'm distracted because I'm broke and I need to make money. I need to do other things for money. But then in 2019, I had to really be honest with myself. And I was like, okay, what are all the brands that I'm seeing that I think are doing really well? All of them had something really unique about them. So a unique selling point. And I'm reading about unique selling points. And I'm like, what is the unique selling points of my brand?

22:56And I can't find one. So I'm like, that's the first, that's another problem. I need a brand that has a unique selling point. So at that point, and I'm like, what do I really like? because everything was about like minimalism online i very much leaned towards minimalism like for example we moved into a house that my mom bought like um around when kai um just before kai launched and i remember pressuring my mom to have gray wooden flooring because that's what was all over instagram but actually i hate gray wooden flooring so i started to just be really honest with myself and I was like you know what I love color I'm such a color girl I'm not a minimalist and I'm like you know what I'm going to use everything I love everything I grew up around to inform my brand and just like enrich my brand and I grew up in Lagos Nigeria it's very much like sensory overload there's a lot happening it's a lot of color it's a lot of texture it's a lot of noise and so i was like you know i'm gonna take all of that and put it into my brand we need prints and we need to be known for like really colorful really good prints and so we designed some prints in 2019 um made a sample with one of those prints that dress would be come to be known as our gaia dress and at the beginning of 2020 i was going for like i was invited to a BAFTA party.

24:25Right. And I wore that dress and nothing was the same. That was when the business boomed in 2020. I think we went from making like 20K in revenue the entire year of 2019 to making like 400 and something K in 2020. And yeah, that was what happened. So it was product. And actually every single time that we struggled as a business, because yes, it boomed in 2020, but we've still had many difficult moments after that. For example, after COVID, when because COVID was amazing for us as a business, I invested so much money in stock because I thought we keep selling out. I need to stop selling out. So I tripled the amount of clothes that we were making.

25:08But then a lot of fashion businesses saw after COVID a decline. Like we thought when people start going out, they'll buy more clothes. Instinctive. Like if they're buying clothes when they're not even going out, when they start going out they will buy clothes but that was not our experience and that's why a lot of fashion businesses have actually gone out of business because they just invested too much in inventory during covid yes that makes sense yeah and so even in 2021 2022 those were difficult times because I had too much money sitting in inventory at every single time that we've had a difficult period in the business a product has come and saved us so in 2020 was our guy address and after that we've had we've had different products it's just one product out of a plethora of products that just saves us turns it around yeah yeah I think that is I feel like that rings true to a lot of brands like it takes that one but you're like gosh this is like propping up the business this one product what is it now obvious and this is you know you know your brand inside out it's you to the core you kind of went against everything that was about the minimalism and you made it fully you is it now obvious to you when you're designing or when you're coming up with concept what is going to be that hero product or does it shock you it would be nice to sit here and say it's obvious to me i know now i just know but no i still get it wrong a lot of the time like some things i think are absolute bangers i'm like this is incredible and i don't always ask that question explicitly anymore um sometimes i'll just wear it on my stories and so if i get lots of responses from people asking where did you get that then i know i'm onto something but that's kind of my initial test right just wearing it silently but sometimes it's crickets in my dms i'm like refreshing i'm like there must instagram must exactly is there a glitch exactly instagram must be down and then there's nothing so i still get it wrong which is why now i really try and get more opinions than mine because also my style is quite unique and just because I like something doesn't mean that everyone does it's going to translate yeah I've definitely improved and I would love to get to that point where I'm like I can close my eyes I know this is going to do well and that's not going to do well but that's not my experience I need to validate my ideas yeah and I do and I and I think that is so honest and I think that is part of like evolution and growing as a founder that actually to not be in so in your own head because sometimes like you can never ignore your gut yeah there are still sometimes where my team says something totally different and I go against it I just have to be ready for the consequences so sometimes it's worked out like I still would just never ignore my guts what I love about talk about products and like me sort of I've been I've been sort of following your journey as a brand more so to you personally that's why I was like who's behind this brand I need to speak to her and I the bag that you that I just remember the black yeah and the way I tried to get hold of this bag I couldn't and couldn't and still don't have it and I remember being like I want this bag and it was in my girls group chat and you're right you have those products right that kind of it's like come off to a flame everybody's like I want this I need this I can't have it that also does something to my soul that then I want it 10 times more absolutely exclusivity yes scarcity everything is the best marketing strategy it absolutely is and I'm a marketer's dream when it comes to that how what I love about what you do is your clothing and your designs feel very much like you they feel very empowered and I can I can really see that message that you are empowering women through clothing how do you how do you translate empowerment through clothing or do you have to go with what makes you and your team feeling empowered that's such a good question because I have been thinking about that a lot when women wear kai they voice this all of the time on Instagram their feedback is often about how confident it made them feel.

29:46Kai is a lot about the community. I know everyone uses that word, but we really, really embody it. When girls see each other wearing Kai, it's like, I see you. Like, we know who we are. We know that we're feminist. We know that we do not believe in gender limitations. We know that we believe in confidence. We are empowered to walk into a room and take up space. It's all about main character energy. And so I've been thinking a lot about how this is woven into the clothing, right? Because it's not like we pour a potion of confidence into it, even though it really feels like that. But recently I've been listening to Story Brand by Donald Miller.

30:28A friend put me on the book and I've actually realized that the reason, well, one of the reasons why Kai customers feel the way they do when they wear the clothing is because of the stories that we tell. It's because of the words that we use. So we sell clothing and clothing is very important. And visuals, imagery, video, super important. Like invest in your imagery, but also think about your words. Think about the stories that you're telling. Think about the - Tone of voice. The tone of voice, the taglines that you're using. Because when as a brand, you're talking about how you want your customers to feel and then the campaigns, the imagery, the videos are emphasizing what you've said about how you want the customers to feel.

31:15The customers have heard those words. And so when they receive the clothing, they're like, oh, do I feel this way? Actually, I do. So it is the words that you use to describe your brand and how you want the people to feel, to describe your customers' experience. that is how they actually begin to feel storytelling is so so important isn't it with like you say with everything that we do that's how we're buying in and now we're sort of in this new world that we mentioned a lot that we're seeing kind of that founder-led content too which i think is really which i think is such a different angle actually the founder was always a little bit behind the scenes and a little bit like anonymous and a bit of a mysterious character right yeah now it's we're seeing founders like yourself myself you know lots of that we're honest about what we're doing and how that looks and I think that also buying to you and your confidence and how you empower women too right and I think it's kind of it's a it's an idea that I suppose not every founder will be comfortable with as in putting themselves out there and letting but it really I think it's it's sort of been such a positive for so many brands and for so many founders too that we're kind of really embracing that kind of content now yeah but the trap is not staying there forever the sorry not the trap the the key is not staying there forever because it's quite easy if you get over the embarrassment to make a video on TikTok and be super vulnerable and cry or whatever.

32:53People like that and people connect to that, but you don't want to always have to do that to make sales. So there was a time when if I did not wear a certain item, it would not sell. So on launch date, only the items that I had worn and posted would sell. And we also used to see that people were styling their items exactly how I style items. And so when I go out with my partner and, um, we see women in Kai, he's always urging me, babe, I'm an introvert. He's like, babe, PR PR, you need to go up to these women. You need to say hi to them. You need to thank them for shopping Kai. I'm like, okay, fine, fine, fine.

33:33I'll do it. And so I started doing that and, you know, going out to people, thank you so much for shopping the brand. Like I've, I've always done that, but to a degree where like he would be like i'm not the loudest like i'm not an extroverted person he'd be like you need to give them energy so i'll be like your comfort zone yeah so i'm like okay you know what energy so i go up like really enthusiastic exactly and then it was actually in houston i think earlier this year in the mall saw someone wearing a tank top a kite tank top and so i went up to her and i smiled and i was like oh you're a kite girl and she looked at me like i was an absolute weirdo and it occurred to me that she didn't know who I was she had no idea who I was and of course on some you know on one hand I was my ego was hurt because it's not nice to be ignored but literally the second after it happened and like as soon as the embarrassment like paled down I was like this is amazing I've built a brand that this woman has no idea who I am and now this brand is like living outside of me it was this year when um kai social following outgrew mine on instagram and i was like you know what now we begin like this is the real beginning now i have a real business now if something happened to me which things have happened like i'm not always in the mood to create content like sometimes i'm in the throes of the business exactly yeah sometimes I'm sad I'm depressed but the launch still has to go on and now I can firefighting and you're exactly putting out fires across the business and exactly you haven't got time to spin around in an outfit and say how empowered we feel because you're probably you're dealing with something that might be going on internally and I think that is such I think the sign that you've built an incredible business is when it can run without you yeah like and obviously you're so fundamental in that and how it looks but on the outside if you could and that's why and I don't know if you feel the same but my little cocoa was so important to me that it wasn't like baby by Rochelle Humes because actually I don't the biggest compliment to me is when I will see like an influencer post that doesn't follow me and like we was yeah we I get to see a lot of the content because the team will send it on to me but it'll be like an influence I can see that doesn't follow me that it's she's recording a story but it's on her bathroom behind them or someone I've had like this is how by the way sometimes your biggest fans are not your friends and family because I've had family members say to me I didn't know my little cocoa was yours oh wow okay well first of all we are related you're supposed to know that by default but I think the biggest compliment is like someone being a fan of your product but like you say living outside of you and I think that's when you can sort of say we're doing something right here it's not because of course you have a you'll you have a luxury that you've got a following that would inherit the kind of content that you're putting out of course that might make people rush to buy the jacket that you're wearing or the bath wash that I'm you know telling everybody that is so great but it doesn't mean they're gonna buy it again doesn't mean they're gonna get through the door on the first time exactly exactly not that repeat purchase it's also not enough I'm not I don't have 30 million followers right so it's just not enough people you need to reach people you're not a Kardashian level exactly you know we can't just say exactly you know he has a tissue buy it because you're a Kardashian you know and I'm not saying of course there's a lot more work that goes into it for them but we don't it's not that scalable following that can create impact overnight you You know, it's really that.

37:13And I think that for me, it would be repeat purchase, right? So it would be when that bottle of cream runs out and they go back and buy it again. That's how I know that it's converted. Or for you, if they're signing up to a newsletter to see when the next drop is coming or how that looks, that's how you know you've built that. And our returning customer rate, like you're saying, is so high. And the customers that come back every single drop. And so one thing I'm really focused on recently is, well, I've been for a long time, but now I just need us to take it to the max is how do we reward that customer that comes back every drop?

37:48Because she's not doing this to support us. Everyone uses the word support. She's doing this because she really loves the brand. Yeah. She wants it in her wardrobe. Yeah. But she needs to know that we see her and we appreciate her. And that is how you build real community. and affinity so now we have a community manager whose job is to see those customers and make them feel seen so something we did this summer was we have these jerseys that are really popular everyone loves i was like for 200 people and i think now we've done like 400 because it was such a successful campaign for our top i think it was 150 customers and for 50 influencers we need to customize these jerseys with their names and it was a very difficult thing to do because it's like customized the back end of it yeah for sure exactly but just imagine and imagine the marketing all those people put up a post on Instagram when they got their jersey wow I mean I love it yeah it's genius but like you said and it also is a that is a real thank you and that is a real sort of acknowledgement of how much you appreciate them because I can only imagine logistically exactly personalizing I just think of like back end drama and everyone going up but it's but and also the way that that's appreciated and I think that personalization I remember last year and we did like a recap of the sort of best moments in PR on the podcast and Burberry had that moment where everybody was going to their event but everybody's content at the event was sort of like so it would say like Rochelle or it would have your name underneath written in the Burberry font but it meant then that everybody really was share it made it really shareable and it's like tapping in everybody wants and that's even like Burberry level right like to feel that sort of personable connection with it and I think it's so so smart what do you think have been like some key lessons and you know I think you started off with a great one and I was asking questions but in scaling a fashion business sustainably because it is like you say we've seen in the world of fashion lots of businesses are no more and how tough it is but for you your growth your overcoming hurdles what do you think so you know what do you think if you was to share one of your biggest lessons if somebody's listening to this thinking gosh we're trying to scale and it's not happening what would what would you say a bit of advice would be I have quite a few, but I'm going to try and choose the one which I feel is probably why we are where we are today.

40:38So if I had to choose only one, I think that that would be putting all our energy into building a healthy direct-to-consumer business. because in fashion and a lot of industries, people chase retailers because retailers are, they get your products seen, but there are just some businesses and clothing is one of them where you really need to build a real culture and a real community around your product, like build a real cult around your product. and especially at first you don't really just do that by sticking your brand in net support and matches and in all these different places you build that by building an identity on your own platform and having people come to your own platform to get the product having people experience coming to your own platform to get the product and not being able to get it because if you go immediately to a retailer a lot of the time the retailer advertises like on google with your product name right and that cannibalizes your own website sales and obviously the margins are better when you're selling your own product and so i just really understood that from the beginning and i'm so grateful because i never learned this i'm not sure how but i was like people must come to our platform to buy the product yeah and i have um acquaintances acquaintances and colleagues who works with retailers like so many different ones like look what happened to matches and how many small businesses they didn't pay yes there are a lot of businesses um big retail retail businesses that still exist that have filed for credit protection in recent months and just cannot pay their smaller brands and not being able to earn the 30 000 pounds 40 000 that you spent as a small business selling stuff to a big retailer that's something that can take you out it's yeah it's completely fogged the business yeah and then and that is something that by building our direct to consumer business we've been able to avoid that it means that no matter what happened to anyone externally we can ensure that we can deliver that product straight to the customer.

43:03We don't have to rely on a middleman's validation. Our validation does not depend on the fashion industry. It doesn't depend on being seen at Fashion Week. It doesn't depend on any awards. It depends on our customer liking our product. And I think that has been the most important thing for Kai. And also you own your customer in that sense. It really does dilute. And it depends, like you say, where you're trying to be and what you're trying to achieve. like it's almost like reverse engineered in product and for what I'm trying to do because my goal is for the product to be on the high street and you'd be able to grab great bath wash right so I need that retailer but at the same time it does it's it's a journey and still an ongoing one for us to for our DTC be as important as our retail proposition because Because, you know, if Boots or Ocado or Amazon, you know, and so on close tomorrow, we want to still make sure they know that this is and there's incentive here and the offers happen here.

44:04And so it is kind of like it's a two pronged approach, isn't it? The retailer and the DTC. It also depends on the product. Like your type of product makes absolute sense because people are going to Boots looking for something and then they see yours and then it's like, oh, you know, that's a huge way. But still then they own a portion of our customer. So it's always then that battle to try and get it back at the same time. But we still want them to go to booths because we want to keep the shelf space. So it's kind of like getting both right. And I think that is such, and I didn't actually think about in terms of, because I don't have a clothing brand, right?

44:38But that is such good advice that you focus on. And I think it is the ultimate tick, isn't it? And I suppose it's a, sometimes it's a bit of a vanity piece, right? It's a credibility pain. We've made it and we're into Selfridges. Which is important. Which is important because... It's important. It's important for optics. So you need to know when and how to do it. So maybe you're going into Selfridges, but you're not giving them your entire product line. You're not giving them anything you have on your website. You're making like exclusive colors to them. So then there's no competition. It's all about the way you go about it.

45:12You're so right. Everything has its place, but ultimately owning your customer is what's important to any startup, I think. I really think that. I'm just reading numbers here and you touched on it before. When the Gaia address went viral, your revenue grew by 535 % within a year. Like it's just what you've achieved is so, so incredible. And of course, I'm sure that you've got an incredible team that, you know, like we say that the business is nothing without the team and the team that we lead. in terms of you what sort of leader and a founder are you personally so if I was to go into the office what do you think they would say that's a really good question I I'm not a micromanager I hate being on top of someone's neck if I have to tell you something five times you've got to go so i'm quite a tough leader i love people who are very proactive yeah but i'm someone that if you come and you're proactive and i see that you are working hard i love to grow that kind of person and make them their most confident selves like my goal is for people to come into kai and leave way more confident leave whether it's to run their own business or to go to another business for me life is all about advancement like if you're not growing you're dead so whether it's in kai or in another business i want everyone who passes through my business to leave a lot smarter a lot more confident so i'm tough but i I think that I'm very results oriented and I'm very much about developing my team and making them better at their job and increasing their confidence.

47:14And it's the right approach for many people, but it's also not the right approach for some people. So some people you would ask might not have good things to say. I'm sure that's not true. I'm sure that's not true. But some people will. And I'm OK with that. I'm okay with that because when you have such a big mission, not everyone can come with you. Yes. And you will make wrong choices and you have to fix the fact that you made a wrong choice. You're so right. And that's not nice. You're so right. And when you are steering that ship, you do have to sort of be at peace with knowing that like, and I, it really kind of, this year I've had a real, I suppose, you know, switch around with roles and people and out and and onboarding new members of the team and I think I'm such a where this has been my first business that I founded it was really eye opening to me and I kind of like the idea that like we're team and we're a family and we're going to be friends forever and everything's good and really when you kind of get into that you're like there is a mission here there is a mission and sometimes people will sway you off of that mission and it's not going in the right way and and people can fall off and it's not necessarily that they have to fall off with hate or any sort of bad feeling but your mission might now not work for the mission might have been smaller at the start and you didn't know how big it was going to lead or how big your you know your dreams were going to sort of scale to actually there was something that changed my life last year it was netflix's um like mission statement right or team statement I can't remember but it's public and it's we are not family we are team yes and that's the whole like thing when it comes to hiring and it really shifted my brain because I also used to do the whole like we're all family we're all friends actually we're not like I will I will probably not really be close to anyone who works like I again I've done it in the past but same yeah I wouldn't again yeah I don't really think that is how to build the best business obviously we'll be respectful and we'll be kind and we can you know go for lunch but we don't need to hang out on the weekend and I've done that we don't need to you know do all of these things together and have these conversations outside of hours it's not necessary because we're team and in teams you work together to achieve the mission if someone is not pulling their weight they're out Whereas in family, you're together and you're there for each other no matter what.

49:53And that's just not what team is. And I've really accepted that. And I no longer feel the need to be described as nice. It's not really my thing. And I'm so with you. And it does take a while for that to sit right and you to be okay with that. Do you know what I mean? And for me personally, it did. Like, it took me a while to be like, okay. Like, you know, and there's this saying in like, I mean, in the music industry, which is where I originally, you know, came from, that actually that it's not called show friends. It's called show business. And I was always like, God, that is so aggressive. You wouldn't get a part and they're like, it's not show friends, honey.

50:31And that's how it was. But I kind of like we say it in jest in our office, but it is true. And it's kind of like and of course we can. we have a great working relationship but actually the mission comes first and I think it's really dawned on me in the last sort of 18 months I think for me to be comfortable and be okay in it like you know it doesn't am okay if it's not seen as necessarily nice you know like you say I know that I'm a good person we know that we're being nice however I'm probably not being nice and that's okay i don't feel like i need to be nice i need to be respectful yes and i need to be kind but i don't need to be a nice girl i get it yeah i get it but for me that's taken some like yeah it's hard it's hard yeah it's hard especially as a woman because things that people expect expect and accept from men when you do it it's like how dare you yeah and so that's why we try and make up for that by being super kind speaking in a you know certain tone using many x's after our text and you have to let go of that yeah it's so true and but then also i think sometimes in those like you know walking into rooms that is predominantly male and it suits and it's like by default sometimes when you become a founder that you enter this corporate world that you didn't ever really foresee being in that sometimes you you also we say on this podcast a lot you lose your femininity a little bit where you're so like I'm gonna ball bust I'm in and you just go in as a different you sometimes and you're like I also probably didn't need to do that you know it's just do the most just for the day um so it's finding that balance and like I think it's like I just said it's taken me a long time to feel comfortable with that but now I do feel like I can run my business very differently now and I'm actually appreciate the lessons and the kind of curve balls that felt like they were out to get me at the time yeah but now I feel like that needed to happen to give me a different set of balls I've always had the balls but now they're big yeah they're really big um I want to touch up before I do a rocket round I want to just touch on a couple of things and that is burnout because we all know that burnout's a real thing but I just don't think women are honest enough a lot of the time to talk about handling that because there are so many pressures of being an entrepreneur being a founder the responsibility of knowing that and the pressure of knowing that you are responsible for livelihoods and your own well-being and balancing everything and family and partners and however that looks at sometimes it does just get too much yeah and you've been really honest in that and I think it's so so so important because we have all been there to the time when you just question your life choices but you know your passion and it can just get on top sometimes can't it absolutely and for you how has burnout looked I know that you have been open and honest about it but how have you overcome that and how do you make sure that you don't get into that sort of burnout mode again yeah unfortunately I cannot even speak on this from the other side I'm not burned out at the moment but I still don't have all the tools in place to make sure that I don't get burnout and burnout is something that has affected me a lot, like affected my personal relationships, affected my sleep, affected my body, affected my sex drive.

54:18Burnout affects everything. And I found that there's no holiday that will cure it. It's about changing your systems and processes that you have in place in your business. Something that has alleviated burnout for me is having a better team. Okay, that's interesting. For sure. Because it's not just the physical work. It's also the mental load. It's also knowing that you have senior people. So like as soon as we made enough money, we had to make some senior hires. Yeah. Because you need people who can think with the same like foreshadow the problems in the same way as you. and I think for me my biggest thing with combating burnout at the moment as such a high achiever is having to be okay with feeling like a failure I know that I haven't failed I know that that's not the word and it's counterintuitive but a lot of the time I feel like I should be doing more I feel like I should be able to do these 10 videos film 10 videos in one day and you know create all this content and pay everyone and design all these things and approve designs for the whole year and I think that I can do everything in one day and when I find that I can't it really makes me feel like a failure but actually it's not normal to do all those things in one day but my brain still doesn't accept that so I've had to become okay with that feeling of not doing enough failed yes because it isn't failure yeah but to you it is because you're a high achiever yes I think it's It's so common.

55:59Yeah, so I don't have the answers because the place that I need to get to is a place where I don't feel like a failure just because I didn't do 100 things in a day. So I wouldn't talk about it like it's something that I've overcome. Yeah. I'm very much in the process. And it goes down to the way you see yourself, your self-perception, your self-worth. what is it about your self-worth that you feel like if your output is not you know 200x a normal person's output you can't love and respect yourself enough it like takes asking yourself some very tough questions why is it that you only respect yourself when you're able to work so hard and if you spend a day in bed you don't respect yourself so true so that's what i'm dealing with We have like, and I've always had it, this like toxic relationship with like being a hard worker or being like, and I remember like being pregnant and almost feeling like I still had to prove people wrong or not necessarily prove people wrong, prove myself wrong.

57:08it's fine because I can I can do this because I work really hard and I'd sort of like based my I suppose I it become my whole personality yeah the fact that like I'm hard working was my personality yeah and you know if and I remember like getting a birthday card from my daughter and it was like you're the best mommy I love you so much and all those and it was like you work so hard and that was like and they all sort of said like we love you and thanks for working so hard and which of course they acknowledge and I love that I'm setting that example but I'm also like am I setting this a bit toxically in a way of like that it's become a part of my personality yeah and what do you think of when you think of Rochelle you think she's a hard worker and if something could be done in that might take someone else a week I know that I I could do it in a day or two.

58:01But it become like a bit of a badge of honour. Yeah. And not necessarily for like external like gratification, but like for myself too. And that's what lit me up. Like I don't like, and that was my buzz. Yeah. Like you say, then if you don't complete what is also quite unrealistic, but for you can be done, you then feel like a failure. But that is an unreal day for somebody else. And sometimes having that being a high achiever comes with that like constant battle and that bit of a bit of a push and pull and I work with do you know Dior? And she's my life coach and she's like keeps me sane I'm sure but she kind of and she's done like sessions on this podcast which is so people actually like some of our best episodes I was like please could you do this just to and everybody loved them and she said to me one day you do you do you do the most yeah and as in like if there's a situation that I can't control I have to over talk something I have to feel like I've just gone through every avenue of it and like picked apart it in my mind and then I am quite good I can then process it and then I've moved on but she was like actually sometimes the way that you need a week to over process something actually can just be as toxic as like raging or having an argument about it like just because you handle it well you're handling it in a way that perhaps isn't well for you where if something sort of you know when something gives you a bit of a tight chest or like can give you a lump in your throat or a knot in your tummy you can just acknowledge that yeah like i feel a bit shit today and this is made me feel shit but here i am i'm in it and i know why you don't have to try and pick it apart and okay so next time i do this and like you can just not do that and she described it so perfectly she said imagine if somebody was running in your house house and they entered your front door and they run in one room and they were like shouting in another room and then they run in another room they you'd be like first we'd be like just get out of my house like just calm down what do you need here you wouldn't go what's going on and like try and follow them around first we'd be like well why are you in my house just give yourself a minute and calm down and she was like you sort of you deal with that feeling deal with that in the same way acknowledge it be like okay you're here i get it i don't feel comfortable i can connect the dots I probably know why and I'm having a shit day but let's do what I can to feel better but like I am having a shit day and that is okay yeah where I try and problem solve everything I don't know if you're the same but that's what I do and I think and it's like that that's where I can be a bit of a control freak because I'm like a doer if you called me with a problem I'm like okay okay fine let's figure out how we fix it and I try and do that also with like my emotions and with burnout and everything in between and sometimes you just got to sit on it yeah and you just got to accept it so I think maybe that will always be something that we're not out of the other side of fully because we can just live in it for a little bit yeah and let it be it's hard it's hard but we can um I want to ask you it's been almost 10 years of Kai wow 10 years next year goodness gracious me what would you say first of all what's next and what if we spoke in five years what would you hope that you're telling me has happened in the next five years yeah we just got a u.s warehouse which was just on time with like the tariffs and everything wow amen honestly I yeah I have no words um so what's next Europe warehouse Canada warehouse going to where all our customers are both online but also in person so obviously online is amazing um but that real life connection there's nothing like when we've been able to meet our customers in real life there's I think especially after COVID, nothing beats IRL in real life connection.

1:02:14So more of that everywhere. Just go to where our customers are. That's what's next. In five years, I would love to have launched some new categories. We have some new exciting categories coming next year. I can see a face let out when you say that. It's so nice. Yeah, I'm getting married next year, so bridal. Incredible. Also, I'm not a girl for the men, but the men have begged for Kai, so I'll throw them a little piece. You've also said some of us girls want to, you know, hook our guys out. Exactly, exactly. So I'll do something little for the men. Not as good as what we do for the women, but I'm kidding.

1:02:56So that as well. That's fun. So in five years, just expand into more categories. go to where our customers are and meet them, speak to them, have a more direct relationship. And I really, really just want to keep being a part of their most beautiful life memories, whether that's their graduation day, their wedding day, their 40th birthday. For me, that's the most beautiful thing about what we do, being a small part of the best days of their life. Yeah, you're so, so right. Right, I want to do a rocket round now. these are quick fire questions okay so don't talk too much I mean I say this every time but when you get two girls together it's quite hard but yeah we try to make this quick fire what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business idea validation resilience incredible product don't compromise on your product I love that very good advice when did you first realise that you truly launched

1:04:03um maybe the first time like we we launched the guy address and just like the way that it sold out it was the most money i'd ever seen it was a rush it was like unlike anything i've ever seen before it was very emotional it was during covid i had thought that the business was not going to survive covid and then suddenly it was like oh my god what is happening so that was major but I'm not the sort of person who feels like I've made it I'm so far from where I need to be like the journey is long you know yes yeah I'm so with you I think well I think when you are of that mindset you'll never feel like that yeah and like I've I've sat here with founders that I'm like so when did you first feel as you were truly launched I'm like that no I don't yeah like sorry what yeah I've had good exactly exactly I've had good moments but when you want so much the challenge is being content even if you want more and that's what I'm working on because I'm not content nothing impresses me oh I was able to buy this I've always wanted okay great what's next you know so being able to be content in the present yeah that's good what's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed unfortunately my phone like I really wish I could say I wake up and I meditate and I don't pick up my phone that's I wish yeah I know it's honest it's honest one piece of advice that you wish that you hadn't listened to I don't have one you know because there's nothing there's no advice that I've listened to that I don't ask 10 people this upsets my partner and also my mom because I ask them something and I don't do what they say but I'm never gonna just take something I'm gonna ask many people I'm going to listen to podcasts i'm going to put it in chat gpt so there's really nothing that i've been told that i took that i thought was you know not good because i interrogated it so much yes yeah you do your research yeah what's a skill that you'd love to learn

1:06:07people yeah i'd love to be a better people person i'm not really my partner walks into a room and he just makes people happy he makes everyone feel really good about themselves everyone wants to be around him he knows how to talk to anyone I walk into a room and if I don't know anyone I'm gonna sit in the corner on my phone like I'm not gonna go and like network and socialize I'm just not that people person I'd love to be they do say opposites attract don't they you always find in a couple there's one like my husband like I'm confident in a room but my husband is the same he's the networker he's I'm very confident I just don't want to talk but to the point where like we'll go somewhere and they're like marvin and rochelle are so nice and i'm like i know they're talking about marvin exactly because i'm sort of a little bit quiet yeah we're in a long distance relationship i love when he's around and i'm able to go somewhere with him because i know that it would be a successful presentation of the it's so true though and it's like you can be i'm with you on that you can be a real confident person but I don't necessarily you know we go to like we get invited to these lovely events which are great but I'm not the one that's like around like chatting to everyone at every table like I'm just I never have been I'm quite like I'm I will like message you know like people that I know and I'm like are you going to this thing tonight same I feel a bit like safety in numbers I don't know why I just yeah I like to have friends at places I'll have a deep chat with one person yeah but I wouldn't work the room and I think in what we do well in what I do it would really benefit me if I learned to work the room how do we get better at that I don't know I hope I bump into you at an event she's here she's one of me exactly um what is one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started your business so I wish I had known how difficult it would be on every part of my life including my mental health but then again maybe I wasn't meant to know yes because maybe if I knew then I wouldn't have started yeah you know for sure for sure I think that is the that is the best thing about starting something and then the journey of it because you think about the lessons you've learned the situations you've been in if someone had said well this could happen that could happen I would have been like probably be like oh this sounds a bit much actually yeah what would be the dream brand collaboration for you?

1:08:36I love Nike you know I'd love like a Nike collaboration or Doc Martens oh that would be cool something like that would be really cool yeah or like a real you know heritage brand like a Netflix just something big yeah I love big and I love it that we're seeing these like opposite kind of brands that you would never really put in the same conversation and they're coming together and you're like it weirdly makes sense like i love that if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be sarah blakeley founder of spanx she's just so brilliant i hope she ends up on this podcast one day i listen to every single podcast she's ever done she bootstrapped her business to millions she's so sorry not billions billions she is a genius incredible and she's on my list yeah and so and quite a few founders have sat here and said they even know her or like you know she would is on their list for being a mentor and she's like what she has achieved and how how she i don't know her but how she comes across you feel like you know her don't you and like her kind of her personality and her drive I just love it she's kind of yeah she'd she'd be on my list too I wonder if she's got any availability who's yours that's a really good question I it it does change I would I know this is obviously we say past or present I would love to be able to have like Esther Lauder on Speed Dull because I'm so interested in like that sort of that you know I mean I'm in toiletry brand and obviously she was beauty but I would love to be able to tap into her she just seems like such well what she built first of all absolutely incredible but the knowledge and I love Emma Greed she was my first guest on the show and I'm lucky enough to have her in whatsapp so I do kind of pester her from time to time we'll meet for a break but she is just genuinely incredible yeah and she's kind of got the best advice and she's full of that same kind of like well we'll fucking show them come on babe let's go and she's a London girl she's a London girl do you know what she's really generous with her knowledge and generous with her advice I think that's always something that is really attractive to me and that's the reason for setting this podcast up I think there's that tendency in what we do to gatekeep and I hate that idea like giving an opportunity to someone else isn't going to take it off your plate and I've always been that like you need to meet with so and so or you guys would get on and I love it when people really embody that um before you go I ask every guest to leave a tip so I suppose one piece of tangible advice to a lady looking to launch in I suppose like in a similar vein to you like if they look at you and admire you from the outside and think I'd love to build something in the same way that she has what would one if they're like want to start today what would one piece of tangible advice be that you would leave do you think don't be a perfectionist because a lot of people say they're perfectionists but they're actually procrastinators and they just use that to justify not launching you can't perfect anything without feedback so your first product is never going to be perfect i'm not saying launch a bad product do your best but know that that product is not going to be your best product put it out there get feedback make your second drop better don't wait for perfection it's not going to come you're so right like that is i think that is the most common thing isn't it like i want it to be amazing and then all of a sudden you're sat on something and someone else has already got there and then now it's not innovation because if you just press go it wouldn't have been perfect and you probably when you then have the cash flow and the means to improve that product you would do but it is just going for it and like biting the bullet it's a hard thing to do isn't it it's a really brave thing I think that's what you realize the more founders you talk to and that's why I love doing this podcast so much because it's such a lonely old ride isn't it like it is of course you can have a team and you can have a partner and you can have but it's in nobody's head and soul the way it is yours so to have people that really understand that journey like it is a real brave thing like pressing go yeah like just to go okay I'm ready for everyone in the world to see this now is a brave thing but the quicker you do it and you get it out of your mind it is liberating absolutely and then lastly we talk about ladies who launch um but we also like ladies who lunch so to finish on a like no what how do you spend your lunch hour and i know lunch hour we're founders we're entrepreneurs there's not always a lunch hour sometimes we're shoving something in our mouth over a desk and doing what we need to do but your dream lunch hour where would you be who would you be with and what would you be eating hmm i'm not a lunch hour girl i just work through it what i would like is to go for a walk every lunch had to get me closer to my steps so that I don't have to finish my steps in the evening oh my god you're step obsessed like me yeah you've got so much in common wow yeah but honestly I'd rather just get it done so that my day ends earlier and I can go to bed earlier I don't really yeah I don't really have a dream lunch no okay so let me let me reframe it if you were going to take your team for a celebratory lunch where would you take them what do you eat I love fish you know I love raw fish oh same yeah I'm loving Gaia Mayfair the raw fish the seabring yeah I love sushi I love Japanese food in general Gaia's not Japanese but the Japanese the way they use fish yeah I do like a good sashimi good pick thank you so much thank you for having me it's been so nice to like I said I've been such a fan of the brand and it's so I discovered you in reverse which is also a really big compliment to you.

1:14:55So thank you so much. It was so nice to hear your story and you've shared so many tips and tools that would be incredible for our listeners. So thank you. I love that. This was fun.

1:15:11Don't forget to follow us on Apple and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you don't miss out because next time we're going to be joined by another incredible lady who launched. If like me, you're a watcher, then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.