Ep 50: How Marisa Hordern Built MISSOMA: From Crystal Collector to Jewellery Powerhouse

0:12On today's episode, I'm joined by one of the most pioneering jewell designers of our time, Marisa Horden. after turning a kitchen table passion project into a global brand. Almost two decades ago, she has redefined the industry with Missima. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched. Well, I'm so excited to sit and talk to you. I have been, what I have enjoyed about this podcast so much, which sounds really self-indulgent, but it's to just sit down with women that I have admired for a long time, been a fan of either a fan of their brand and have been really part of my life for a long time and to get and sort of pick your brains about it is is so so brilliant so I'm so pleased that we could make this work because you know I'm a fan I know and that's what we loved about this we were like Rochelle really loves us it's so authentic you've been such a supporter and we're always so grateful and as I said to you when I walked in we had a fight in the office over who was going to come with me because they're all such big fans of you the podcast and yeah Lulu won but there are some I'm very jealous people.

1:17Oh, that is so kind. That is so kind. Do you know what? It's so interesting because I sort of have connected with you because of the brand. And often it nowadays we're really seeing that happens kind of in reverse, like the founder led content, the founder led brands. You connect with the founder and then you're sort of bought in. So for me, this is it's really happened in reverse. So I can't wait to know everything about you, the lady that's in charge of the brand that I love and is leading the way. I always start these conversations in the same way because I just find, and this has really been an accident since launching the podcast, but we've really found along the way that actually those early years are so, so formative.

2:03And I found that, I suppose in myself as a founder too, our upbringing really sort of has an impact on us. And then I suppose the way that we then found around and the way that we then continue to lead. So tell me a little bit about early life for you and how that looked. Early life pre-Missama or the early days of Missama? Pre, okay, we're going back. I'm talking about you, your upbringing and yeah. Okay. What's the younger you like? The younger me. Well, I've always been quite high energy. And everyone at school used to be like, where does she get her energy from? And the joke was the crystals, because I collected crystals from literally the age of about five.

2:45Wow. So I had crystals all over my room, like, you know, little pebbles, like raw crystals, like eggs, everything. And every weekend, my dad would be putting up a new shelf, a new shelf to add more to my crystal collection. And so that was always the joke at school. and I remember once actually when I was away at university so much later my uncle came to stay and he and he slept in my room while I was away and the next day my mother was like how did you sleep you know Peter and he was like terribly really terribly she's like why was the bed uncomfortable was it too hot and he's a Buddhist so he really feels these things and he goes no no far too much energy in that room and um and it is true in some ways because now I wear a lot more grounding crystals like tiger's eye I just saw your crystal out there yeah I mean I'm really now much more into grounding crystals which are the more kind of earthy tones whereas when I was younger it was all about the color and they were much more high energy um so the chrysoprase used to be one of my favorites and even now you know our I think that's what led me to jewelry my love of gemstones yeah and even now I love working with labradorite with malachite and you see it's so interesting isn't it like you say that sort of became your thing and then as you've evolved it was a hobby with my mum actually because we used to go to like vintage fairs and markets and down portobello road and so while she was kind of off antiquing which i did like as well i would always be drawn to these little like crystal sort of um you know cellars and i remember the first time i bought like a little set and i think it was like five pounds or something and i got him him down so even then I was kind of you know a haggler um apparently my mom says I kind of hugged him went oh I love you I mean I was really young maybe six or seven because I felt so proud of myself that I'd haggled it down but I got this beautiful little set what you were excited about so but it was a real hobby with my mom and even later it kind of started around the kitchen table as a hobby with my mom um beading beading like gemstone um necklaces we actually started with um vintage sort of belts so they were vintage centerpieces that we would collect like 1920s 30s 40s it's beautiful still have some of them but then with beaded um all the beading around it and they were amazing but they were one-offs right so you couldn't really scale it but I would take them in a role to all these different shops you know first in my area then across like the whole of London driving trying to sell them I mean I just love it I love it and you you can see when you're speaking about it just how your face lights up which I just love how how if we're going back to like younger you how did school look because you've obviously got this really creative outlet that is you know is coming in the form of crystals and beading and everything else in between but how how was your time at school so so no one's ever asked me that I love that I was always really good at school.

5:41I was, I had, I always tell you I have a juxtaposition in my character. So I have the left side and the right side of my brain. But what happened is that I actually feel like I don't excel in anything. So I feel like I'm a bit of an all-rounder, but there's no one thing that I was like, oh my God, I'm amazing at maths. I'm going to go and, I don't know, study maths, study economics, you know, go into business. And actually, I think it makes it harder to then find what you really, truly love and what you're really meant to do. And I remember not knowing like what GCSEs to choose, not knowing what A-levels to choose, not knowing what to do at university.

6:16And then after university, the biggest one was, what am I going to do for a career? I had no idea. I studied history at university. I mean, you know, I laugh now and I'm like, it's, you know, it's the sort of, you know, history of kind of bullshitting because at the end of the day, you're making up, you're learning the different facts and then you have to decide what your opinion is on it. So you're arguing different points of view. I suppose a bit like politics. But yeah, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And even on the creative side, I didn't excel that much. Like I was good at art. I was good at maths.

6:50I was good at science. And I was a bit of a nerd, but I was also a party girl. So I've always had this juxtaposition. And it's hard, isn't it? And it's like a tricky, if you, it's interesting to hear you say that because if you kind of aren't leaning towards one sort of avenue, like where do you start? I was watching something the other day and I can't remember who it was speaking, but they were saying, how do you know what your calling is? Like you hear people say that I knew that was for me and I've always been great at that. And he put it in such an interesting way and he said, look, some people are great at math, but they don't necessarily want to be an accountant.

7:30It doesn't necessarily excite them. but sometimes actually it's easier to find your calling than you think and actually it's the thing that that comes easy to you that's difficult to most yeah and I thought that's actually so interesting because we often find you know where is that and where is that base but it's quite a good way to simplify it I absolutely agree Rochelle and I think that I didn't know it then but with hindsight I can now look back and go I think I was born to run my own business because I'm an all-rounder and because I love learning. I love learning all the different areas of the business.

8:07I love constantly pushing myself, challenging myself, expanding that knowledge. And I don't excel in any one area. So I was never going to be just a designer, but I was also never going to be, I don't know, just a lawyer. I love seeing all the kind of 360-dimensional kind of everything involved, even the legal. I used to read all the legal contracts myself, You know, do the HMRC returns, upload every product to the website myself, sit with the photographer editing every image, not just the design. And I think that's what maybe an entrepreneur is, someone who loves to be open, curious and be involved in all aspects.

8:46And how rewarding that is, because I think everything you've just described to some could sound like overwhelm. Or control freak. No, yeah, but listen, I relate. So it takes one to know one. but the fact that that excites you and that you feel the reward from it, and listen, at times, of course, it's overwhelming. I think that's also how you know the enjoyment that you get and the satisfaction that you get from completing those tasks versus, like, you know, how snowed under that might feel. And also, later on, as we've grown a team, it's building a team, building a company culture, being so proud of that company culture.

9:26Like, that's probably the bit that surprised me the most. and I know we've actually fast forwarded way too much here but I do go off at tangents I think that it ended up being more about the people than even the product like you go into it to design a tangible product to create something that I am so proud of but actually I'm equally as proud of the team and sort of you know their accomplishments and seeing that I don't know the buzz the passion the drive the energy that they have that I know is instilled because of you know our I don't know our vision our mission our kind of I consider myself and I will say this the chief cheerleading officer because that's my job my job is to come and help make sure that we are all not only like aligned and working towards the same goals but you know as passionate as we can be and doing things the way and showing up in the way that you know we can all be really proud of it's so so incredible and you're right chief cheerleader is probably the best the best way to put it What was your first job?

10:22I was just about to go back to that thinking. I totally like flew ahead. No, no, I love it. And this is how it goes. This is how it goes. So my first job out of uni was at Richemont, which is basically a luxury goods holding company, a bit like LVMH. And they owned like Cartier, was their biggest brand at the time, but they owned a lot of Swiss watch brands, IWC, Elong & Zone, Mont Blanc, Chloe. We later on, they bought Net-a-Porter, but that was after I'd left. Right. Who else did they own? Van Cleef & Arpels, did I say that? So they did have some really good jewelry brands, but more it was that I didn't know what I wanted to do.

11:00So I thought, okay, I'm going to work on the business side of a creative industry. And I thought, therefore, I'll be exposed to the creative side and the business side. But I was very mistaken. And the thing is, when you go into a big corporate, you are so siloed and the departments are so separate and no one kind of really speaks to each other and even now I hear about you know other companies where you'd think now people have learned but they're still working very siloed so which always interests me because you kind of and even when we have it here where we'll deal with big corporate firms and you're kind of like does nobody talk internally like it's it's so interesting that's where efficiencies really start to I don't know fall off a cliff um and so I didn't well first of all I didn't really know what I was doing technically it was corporate media strategy.

11:51Really, it was kind of aggregated group volume in media buying. Really didn't understand that that well. Was just behind a spreadsheet the whole time. Didn't even know how to work a spreadsheet when I first turned up. I mean, those were the days when we weren't taught it at school. We are talking a long time ago because, I mean, Miss Ma is 18 years old, so therefore this was like 25 years ago.

12:11And, yeah, I just, I wasn't creatively challenged. I wasn't seeing anything creative. I just felt like this can't be my life forever, just behind a desk, in this very corporate environment. I didn't feel challenged. And so on the side, I was beading still with my mum as a side hustle before like the word side hustle even kind of came about. And it was still this passion. I was still going and taking our little wares to little shops. And I started to get it in a few magazines. And they were kind of beaded earrings in that kind of boho time of like when Sienna Miller first evolved onto the scene.

12:45oh gosh do you remember that moment what a time for dressing and it was sort of Sienna Miller and Julian McDonald and Matthew Williamson that was the kind of era and you couldn't find jewellery at that point which was fun, fashion forward colourful, we were doing a lot of gemstones at that time really great quality but that you could afford, it was either cheap tack or it was really really expensive, fine jewellery there was no sort of mid luxury at that point. No, I mean, it seems crazy to say that right now because now we have it everywhere, which is wonderful. That might have been because someone might have been trailblazing over there.

13:24There were only a few of us. There were only a few of us. I would say we, in our category, just jewellery, and obviously there's mid-luxury in many other categories now as well due to many different brands. But if we just talk about Demi Fine Jewellery, which again didn't even have that name then, there were probably three of us at that time. One doesn't exist anymore. and you know we we spent about seven years I would say I call them seven years in the wilderness where I think I felt like I was trying to educate the customer on the difference between the cheap quality and what we were doing and why that price point was a little bit higher and also the country was actually predominantly a silver country at that point and we were doing gold I know people forget that as well now we're sort of trying to go back to silver I'm like don't worry it'll take a few years I've been here before um but so it was predominantly silver trying to persuade people to go into gold it took a long time you know because I always say it takes six months to make a bestseller but it takes about two years for things to start to filter through yeah to you know a commercial kind of scalable point um and so yeah it was a hard graft I mean those years I I mean, we were barely scraping, you know, by, you know, barely making, you know, breaking even.

14:38We were in all the magazines. We were, you know, getting a lot of excitement. People loved the pieces. We were in a lot of department stores. So at the beginning it was, you know, wholesalers. So Harrods, Harvey Nichols, Selfridges. But not really the volumes you needed because a lot of it, what I was doing at that point was a little bit more statement. Yeah. and and that's all great but it's quite tough on the cash flow at that point because you know we know how it looks when it goes to retail the margins and everything moves around yeah so although and I've sat with founders on this podcast where you know Sunday Riley was one of them and she was in Bloomingdale's and the big stores but she wasn't earning any money yeah and was struggling to pay for her own groceries you know because but everyone thought she'd smashed on the outside it's still totally at that point in your emphasis it is smoke and mirrors and it's really kind of you you need that opportunity because you want especially particularly when you're trying to get that mid-luxury point across that you've got that premium feel but you're a different price point to the kind of high-end luxury but you're above that you know cheaper like it's a really hard thing to play out at first yes and and you have to find things on the side to of bring in the money.

15:57I mean, I had to do a lot of other jobs on the side to fund Missima to keep it going. So I was doing private label for some big department stores, sort of household names, where I would design, manufacture, and, you know, do all the delivery and distribution. I even did a bit of QVC and Shop NBC, not in the UK, because I didn't want to kind of it to affect the brand. But I did QVC Germany, I flew to Minneapolis doing Shop NBC. So I had to do a lot of other things to bring in the money that funded me yeah which is so so interesting i don't think enough people talk about that let's sort of i suppose jump back a little bit because you you you leave uni you start this job it's not for you it's you're way too creative to be sat where you are and you kind of think you're going into something that it wasn't you know what ended up transpiring so what starts as a heart side hustle which now we have that terminology at what point do you say okay I'm going to me and my mum are doing this and this is a side hustle but this feels to me that this has more legs yeah than just being so what point do you put your focus on Miss Emma and how do you how do you decide whether you're going to raise money to do so and how does that look that real sort of starting journey I mean everyone says it's a leap face right and there's no getting around that that is the truth but I also think from my point of view I was so miserable in my job that it helped make that decision easy right and I remember it was just a really I had a very difficult boss and I spent most of my time crying in the loo and which is also which will really is pivotal in then how you run a company because oh my god I that you said that like you it's it's a lesson and it was like shit for you at the time it was my biggest takeaway yeah so my mum said to me it is your baptism of fire this is your baptism of fire and you've learned so much from it because what I took away from it is I will never treat anyone the way that they treated me and it would be it would break your heart to think anyone that is working alongside you would spend their lunchtime crying exactly that will never happen so there is this thing now where one of our sort of values is no big egos and we all muck in we're all kind of any anyone can ask any question anyone can have a great idea like we have great even creative ideas from like I don't know finance merch this that you know that we all are open and curious to each other but yeah I I really lived by that to this day and I do think that was a real key takeaway and learning for me um and I still believe in that baptism of fire and I also think for younger of people just going back to that whole what do you do when you leave university and you don't know what you know what your life path is yet I would say go to a smaller company maybe not one that's so small that you know you don't know if they're going to have enough cash to prop up the business but a medium size where you see more departments and you're open to learning from that cross-departmental kind of collaboration because then you see everything and you then hone in on what you really want to learn more about and enjoy if you could be a sponge to it at all you know and then you can figure out early on I wish I had the opportunity to really realize what my strengths and weaknesses are you know in that environment because I am one of those people that want to soak up everything but to be able to borrow a little bit of everything and everyone that is that's the dream isn't it so you so you take a risk I mean like you say it's kind of your mind is made up by the fact that you have a difficult boss and your time wasn't I think when enjoyable sorry I didn't mean to interrupt I think it's when you realize quality of life yes there is no point going to work every single day if you are that miserable and you hate it and so and that's another thing you know we want to make sure we might not have the most beautiful offices this that and the other but we have a great working environment and you know that social culture is really important in terms of all the social activities we do with the team but yes so I decided right quality of life it's not worth me staying doing this being miserable I'm going to take this leap of faith I'll try it out for a bit and if not I'll go and get another job but I mean I'm very driven I have a lot of willpower and and and it really taught me to challenge myself and to get out of my comfort zone because at that point I'd never really traveled by myself I'd never really yeah gotten out of my safety net and so what I did was by that point we started to get jewelry students as basically freelancers beading up for us.

20:36So I would deliver these bags full of beads, calipers, cutters with like instructions on a piece of paper, handwritten, you know, sort of a prototype for them to copy. And so they'd be earning money while they were at jewelry school. And I'd be driving around with little baggies and literally meeting them, I don't know, outside there, I don't know, uni halls of residence or in a parking lot. It looked slightly dodgy. Slightly suspicious. I mean, slightly suspicious. I mean, basically there I was handing over little baggies of like crystals. So innocent, but looked so dodgy. But once we got to a point where we realized, okay, no, we need to scale up further because, you know, we were selling to quite a few independent shops.

21:16Then I started to go, I was doing sort of desk visits to editors. Again, just Googling, finding them, you know, emailing, calling. Putting yourself out there. Sorry? Putting yourself out there. Absolutely. So doing desk visits, taking again my little role, getting it all out. I mean, even yesterday we had a press day and there were some there who go, I remember 20 years ago when you came to my desk when I was at InStyle. You know, and it was so funny just to see that, you know, they all remember that hard graft of what we all did. And then I was doing, I started doing trade shows. Right. So, and that was the traditional way of doing things.

21:52Don't need to do it anymore. But, you know, this was back in the day. And so I started doing trade shows, applying for like London Fashion Week, Milan, Paris. But then I was also, you know, later on I started doing jewelry trade shows as well. But as I started getting more stores, so I started getting the department stores. I did every meeting as well myself, sales meeting to a Liberties or a Selfridges. I mean, I would feel physically sick beforehand because I was actually a very anxious person. Right. and I always find sometimes the seemingly most confident people are actually quite shy on the inside or not shy anxious yeah so you know it taught me to push through that I think you know being starting your own company teaches you to push through so many barriers it really does it's almost like I think of like you know when people talk about Beyonce and that she's this really homely girl and then she goes into that Sasha Fierce moment the alter ego you you kind of in those situations where you and we've all had it before a big meeting where we feel like we're gonna vom before we go in but it it sort of takes some work to get to a place where you know how to turn that on but I think because you have to and this is your baby and this is it sort of is a bit of an out-of-body experience sometimes isn't it and practice practice practice now whenever you know you're talking to you know the younger generation they're going through it you're like Don't worry, it gets easier.

23:13You've just got to keep trying and you'll improve each time. So, yeah, went into some of the stores. I think that was a really great moment. The first time I sort of saw it in, I think, Harrods on the ground floor on display. I feel like that was one of my kind of proudest moments. And then I realized, okay, we need to scale this up and start getting manufacturers. Wow. That was a whole other story. Okay, so this is a whole nother story because this is where everything dials up a little bit. This is also where it's hard to be the control freak that we know and love. And you're not necessarily meeting a couple of uni students and you're telling them exactly how you want it.

23:57This is, you know, when the volume goes up, you can't be across every single piece. I mean, to a degree you can, of course, but it does change, doesn't it? It definitely does. I mean, at that point, I think it was still only me and one other person. So when I was going and finding the factories, now we can talk later about how now there's a team and there's a product development team. And, you know, we take turns on who's going to the factories and which factories they're going to visit because we do obviously go directly and we keep those relationships. But at the beginning, I went out first to kind of trade shows like in Hong Kong and Bangkok to find some manufacturers.

24:34then I went direct to them because I wanted to check out the factories firsthand which I still believe is the most important thing your relationship with your factories and your suppliers it's not a supplier relationship it's a partnership and those relationships are so key because you have to help each other through the good and bad times right so when we need something urgently or when we need extended payment terms also when they're running late on something or I don't know some some machinery or blackout has happened and they need to you know they're behind a few days so I went round yeah Jaipur Bangkok Hong Kong even Shenzhen and I tried over 20 different factories before I found at that time it was two that we worked with both in actually Jaipur because in those days we were much more gemstone driven and Jaipur is very much a gemstone kind of center of the world where it all comes you know is imported in the rough to be cut and we were doing a lot of hand cuts.

25:31And I still have relationships with all my manufacturers today, almost all. And we've added, obviously, a few more since. So we've now moved into Thailand and manufacturing in Thailand where, you know, it's easier to get the pearls or they're more ahead in certain, you know, other areas because everyone has their, you know, their pros and their cons, just like, you know, we all do. So now we have the two, Thailand and Jaipur, but I still have those personal relationships with all of them. And it's so important. And I suppose it kind of, I mean, it's kind of a 360 approach, right? And it goes back to what you were saying before, working at a corporate firm, no one's necessarily got a personal relationship with each other in the way that you'd assume.

26:15And that kind of sort of translates across the full picture, really, doesn't it? You need those relationships. Relationships are such an important part of any great business. Absolutely. And I think that also, especially with certain suppliers, if you don't treat them in the right way, it's not a real partnership. And that's when they'll have your back and you'll have their back. And that goes back to that same thing of treating people the way that you want to be treated. I firmly believe in that. And at that point, how did that look? Because like I said, this started off as a side hustle. You leave a job to make this work.

26:51Did you have to take on investment when you decided, okay, we're ready for scaling up and moving into that kind of manufacturer position? Yeah, I took on at the beginning, 100 ,000 of investment, gave away way too much equity because I was really naive. And that took us that 100 ,000 took us to 12 million in sales. Wow. Yeah. So we made that go far. Goodness me. I mean. Hasn't been quite as easy since, but. Yeah, but what, like that is something to be so incredibly proud of. We were really, really, I mean, I don't think we even thought about it at the time. But then when we sort of hit 12 million and realized that that wasn't the norm and that a lot of other people had taken on a lot more investment.

27:35Because I think when I started it, I didn't have a business plan. I didn't know what I was doing. I had no training in jewelry, by the way. Forgot to mention that. I mean I remember we would we used to hand draw some of the designs on graph paper and we'd be trying to decide my mum and I between 1.3 or 1.4 millimeters or I don't know 0.8 and 0.7 so minimal how do you make decisions? It's all self-taught. So it's trial and error and I do think it took us longer because we were teaching ourselves so I do think the first couple of years we were still experimenting with the metal the the finish so whether it's 14 carat is it 18 carat Is it nine carat?

28:12Is it, you know, two microns? Is it three microns? Is it flash plated? We even tried, you know, solid 14 carat. So trying to then find the right price point and then trying to find what is right for the customer. What are they at the end of the day? It's what are they wanting to pay? What's their upper limit? What's your sweet spot? Design was never the problem. It's always just honing that price point and and the quality. right um so but also it's persuading people to take you on there you are traveling alone by yourself down these back streets in industrial zones where I mean it was before google maps it was before find my phone yeah gosh I mean there were times even where I mean I don't know I had to get on the back of a motorbike someone who came to collect me because I phoned and said I can't find it I'd spent half an hour finding it was getting dark and we're careering around like monkeys and cows and I'm thinking oh my goodness no one knows like they know I'm in Jai Poole but No one knows where I am.

29:08I mean, I don't actually know this. Isn't it funny when you actually like take yourself out of the situation that you're actually willing to do anything for your business and you're like, no, I'm going to get this right pearl because I've heard this is where I should be. Exactly. And, no, I mean, I was trying to, you know, compare every single price per carat, trying to compare every single quote. But, again, a lot of it is about communication. So I remember I wrote to one of the factories who never applied to me and he said he would send me a sample. And I wrote to him after saying, you know, communication is everything and if you're not going to communicate with me if you don't want to make this sample because we're too small that's fine but please let us know we'll move on and he he told me in fact about three years ago because he's actually still one of my favorites and still our supplier our partner our manufacturer and he goes I kept that email as an example to myself to never um underestimate anyone to never write anyone off because he didn't reply then and we didn't work with him then.

30:05But a few years later, I think, I don't know whether he wrote to me or I went back to him and we started working together. And he had basically written to me. I think he'd written to me saying, we've seen how Miss Summer has grown. We've seen the success of Miss Summer. You know, we really love what you're doing and we'd love to work with you. But he'd written me off at the beginning, which it was, I mean, I understand because if you've got these people just coming, knocking on your literally factory door, which is what I was doing, and you don't really have any sales channels. You've got no money.

30:32you're trying to order I mean you're going what's your minimum quantity and you're trying to order ones and twos of things and you're having to make the samples it's like you are taking a risk so you also have to sell yourself you're going out there and you are selling yourself it's almost like like you say it's almost in you know in a different way but asking for investment again because you're asking for that time investment like you say if you want someone to really take you seriously and those miqs and you're asking for like 10 pieces of this or like you say to put that timing it is it is asking for them to invest in you too what i love about you is in that instance a lot of people would have let sort of pride and ego get in the way and then once he'd email again years later and said actually i'd love to work with you i've seen how you've grown how incredible you're doing lots of people would have said you didn't want me but yeah no he is one of my favorites i trust him actually more than you know many people and he's he's a really he's got a really straight um I always believe in straight talkers I or and I read people's energies I mean actually no that's a lie my sister would say I'm really bad at reading people's characters I've made a lot of mistake on that but we all have yeah and I'm with you there I'm good at reading energy maybe I'm not good at reading capabilities but I'm good at reading energies yeah yeah yeah I kind of with you there and it's when you don't listen to your gut yes because I know so many founders have come on and told you you know on this um podcast it's about listening to your gut because we've all You made the mistakes.

31:59And I think for me, in terms of like people and trusting in people, there were obviously red flags a long time ago. And I think when you want it wholeheartedly to be the opposite of what you deep down know that it is. It's like a relationship. It is. You kind of fight for it in a different way. And actually, and then there's ego in there too because you don't want to be wrong because someone else might have said, oh, I'm not sure about this. And you're like, no, no, no. Absolutely. Try and trust them wholeheartedly. And actually. Exactly. And I think that's where team is so important because when you do have the people whose opinions you trust and you listen to their concerns or if they sort of see any red flags, that really helps because you've got a sounding board and you can ask them and know you're going to get the right, the straight answer.

32:43But when you don't have that team to ask, it's listening to that like slight discomfort in the belly of your stomach. And I often have not done that because, again, like you said, try to push through. and I think it's learning to really empower yourself to listen to that and I think that sometimes do you think it's age though and experience because I think when I look back I've done it well actually I think even not too long ago I've been in that situation but I think it is just I feel like each time I'm getting a little better at it I wish I was and I think I am but I also just think I need other people to give me I think I try and see the best in people and I think I try and read energies and I don't think I look at their capabilities.

33:26I listen to the talk. So I need people who know the right type of questions to ask, the right kind of way of getting, delving a bit deeper. And I now have that. I now am surrounded by people who I really trust, but I wasn't for a long time and I made a lot of mistakes on trusting the right people and also people who talk a big game. Yes. And use really big words, sound really eloquent. Oh my gosh. And kind of intimidate you. And actually, I've realised they're just big talkers. I'm a big fan of a doer. So you can be a great talker, but actually not be that good at your actual job or what you say you do or can do.

34:08And I think that's been a real sort of lesson for me. And don't blindside me with everything in, you know, abbreviations. Oh, the acronyms. Oh, my goodness. I'm so over acronyms. I'm not trained. I don't know what BTA is, balance to achieve. Like all of that is nonsense. And don't make me feel it because I don't understand that you're doing a job that isn't actually happening. So when you take on that investment, like you say, I mean, you do, you make the impossible possible. You turn 100 ,000 into 12 million, which is no mean feat. What you and your mom are doing this, then it's you and one other.

34:44when you're in a position to hire what was the first role that you took on what was the thing that you thought okay I'm a control freak this is my baby but this actually isn't my strength and this is where I could do with the help well I think that's where my first mistake was I didn't hire someone who complimented my skill set now don't get me wrong I had a brilliant person sales and marketing but actually I'm okay at sales and marketing so it wasn't that they weren't great I always say go into business with a partner if you if you can or the first thing you should do is hire someone with your complimentary who complements your skill set so what I should have done is gone straight into operations and kind of someone who could do ops merch and finance all the areas I don't really want to do so um and instead I did sales and marketing and I think for a long time we were too creative um we were like the people in the business were too there was too many creatives there was too much yes because I'm just such a creative and I think I and that excites you creative kind of you know um yes energies um people talents and it was all brand marketing sort of even sales is quite creative right as opposed to building the foundations and getting the processes done right.

36:04Yeah. And there was one person who came in, they were like, have you ever heard of the Maya Briggs test? And basically it tests what type of personality you are. And they were like, there are far too many yellows in this company and yellows are the creatives. Yes. And we didn't have enough of the blues who were the process-driven, analytical, operational. It makes perfect sense though because you kind of, you get pulled in a certain direction And when you're so passionate about something and that's your kind of what makes you tick, you're drawn to like minded people. And I think, like you say, the foundations of the business are so important.

36:39And that is such good advice, because often when somebody is in a position to make that first hire, you look to somebody that you feel like you could really buzz off in that same way. But actually, they should complement what you're brilliant at. I mean, don't be wrong. I did need a salesperson because. Well, I couldn't do it all alone. We were going to all these different markets, doing all these different trade shows. And at the end of the day, you need to bring the money and sales brings in the money. But probably the one after that should have then been, yeah, finance and ops. Obviously, the team has grown somewhat, I'd imagine, or maybe not, since you started all those years ago.

37:17So what does the team look like now? How many of you are there? Well, now there are, there's about 67 in head office. Wow. there's about 18 in our warehouse because we have our own warehouse. I was telling you earlier, so do you. I love having our own warehouse. I'm going there afterwards. And then we also have retail. So with the five stores, we have, I think, 45 in retail. So I think, well, my math is not that good. I think it's about 120. I don't, can't do the math. I mean, see, not my forte. What we should say is it's scaled somewhat since it was you and your mom at the kitchen table. It has.

37:55But also I'm really proud that it's about, I think, 89 % women in senior leadership roles. So, you know, that's either senior managers, heads of, growth directors. So, yeah, really proud of that. So you launched back in 2007. Yeah, can you believe it? Which, I mean, that really surprised me. When I was reading all your kind of info this morning, that actually really surprised me because, well, first of all, I talk about moments like they were the other week and my husband's like Rochelle that's five years ago and I kind of my sort of gauge on time isn't very true but it feels what I think is so so interesting about the brand and the business that you've built is actually that it feels so relevant but it has done consistently and it surprised me that that's since 2007 in my mind it should be like 2018 or 19 so I think you you have done that so incredibly well as it has it been a struggle for the business to stay as relevant as it is is that something is that sort of happened organically and it's just become with creation and ideas or has that been quite hard good question Rochelle um I don't think it did up until maybe a couple of years ago um but you're right 2007 most people think we were like 2015 and that's again goes back to my seven years in the wilderness that people don't really understand I always say it takes 10 years to make an overnight success agreed and people don't understand all those years of hard graft sweat blood and tears she's done really well lately yeah yeah um I think for me relevancy comes when you find your sweet spot and first of all it has to be the customer so it was like finding who she is where is she what's she interested in how do we find her she is me I am her good um and then how do we talk to her and where do we reach her and I think for us an epiphany moment came after that wholesale bit which I told you I was doing all the wholesale trade shows I then had burnout at 30 and I just didn't know how I was going to carry on and scale it up so that we were really kind of able to how did burnout look to you because it's such a like sort of personal relative thing how did you sometimes we can often say I'm I had burnout after the fact and like looking back at knowing that that period of time was really difficult.

40:38How was you really aware in that moment? Yeah. I mean, I remember I couldn't leave my bed for like three days. I just sat in a dark room, curtains closed, just crying and crying and crying. And I just felt like I couldn't go on and I couldn't go on this way. And something had to change. And I'd just been knocking my kind of head against a wall for so many years, feeling like I wasn't getting anywhere. And I just think as much as I'm the most positive person in the world, it just became too much. And I didn't feel like I knew how to move it forward. And I was just so exhausted. I was doing every trade show, setting them up, traveling.

41:16Like I remember Basel's like 11 days long. There was JCK in Las Vegas. There was Vicenza three times a year. I mean, in Basel, I was sleeping on a student's floor on a rollout futon next to like this cat litter that really stunk. I'm not a cat person. Sorry to cat lovers out there. And it was just exhausting and I just didn't see a way forward where it was really going to scale up. So I went traveling. Well, it closed down the company. Sorry, I closed it down. You closed the company? I thought this is it for good. I thought this is it for good. Because you just thought, I can't do this. I've been at this.

41:49I've been beating this drum and it's just not happening. Yeah. And I closed it and I thought, I'm not coming back to this. And I went traveling for four months. And I went around South America, really just trying to re-find my energy, my, I don't know, my passion, my drive, decide what I wanted to do with my life. What else was I going to do? And the irony of the whole thing was I came back four months later and I said to my family, I was like, I want to go back and do it again. And they were like, are you crazy? You just told us, you know, you basically were having a breakdown. You couldn't do it.

42:24Are you sure? Are we sure about this, Marisa? And they actually thought this is a bad idea. Yeah. And I suppose that's really kind of worrying for your loved ones. and I was like no it's the only thing I want to do I I knew I would regret it if I never went back to it I knew it was something that you know was my ultimate kind of passion and something I loved so much but I fell out of love with it because of the way that I was doing it and and that was 2010 was it I can't remember um and that's when I then went and got that hundred thousand investment sorry so we've sort of obviously gone back and that's when I decided going back to the sweet spot right I'm quitting wholesale I'm not doing all these trade shows we're gonna do an online shop we're gonna go direct to customers and we're gonna market ourselves and it was this people like no you're never gonna sell jewelry online and I know it sounds silly now of course in those days there were no online jewelry shops and also it was a day when if you were if you did see a product it was very much like jewelry 101 you were selling a product like one product one But it was a product.

43:31It wasn't a lifestyle. And for me, jewelry is part of who you are. It's jewelry to live in. It's jewelry to wear every single day. And it's how you style it. And so we were trying to sell a lifestyle and how you styled it. And that's how my whole, I think, vision for the brand changed. I came back going, we're not just selling jewelry as a product to wholesalers. We are going to sell it direct to the customer and show them, inspire them how to wear it, but also how it can be the thing that gives them the confidence the thing that's that final bit you put on and you feel like put together and you know when you feel naked when you go out without your jewelry and you know that was the beginning of our layered look and layering and that was the beginning of well us going onto social media um finding influencers who in those days were bloggers and it was all authentic relationships it wasn't a pay-for-play arena in those days it was the beginning of when they were sort of you know starting and they were these new editors for consumers online and it was actually really exciting because we just managed to harness it at the right time and I think that sweet spot is when it all comes together so you've got you know your product your price point your quality tick I spent years owning that then you start marketing it to the right people in the right way and and then it just started to build up like we already had a lot of word of mouth um sort of success when I was doing like little sample sales of pop-ups and all that hard graph but this is on a different level once you hit social media and through those influences you know how you have more reach um but I loved how authentic it was and to this day we still try to keep those authentic roots and we still believe in the relationships so some of our partners are still ones we worked with for 10 years like lucy williams 10 year partnership and you know it was always based on you know shared values um her being able to embody that misnomer muse and how to wear it but in that really affordable attainable way and it was in the days when it was still new to buy jewelry for yourself and celebrating your own wins yes you're so right because when did it's it become like a you know the old school like if he buys you flowers he means he's sorry but chocolates mean i love you and jewelry was definitely sort of seen as something that a male would buy a female and at what point do it was either does a woman not buy her own jewelry or flowers or you know you know what you want just the kind of idea of that but you're right the darl really turned and it was a time where oh my god i'm making it sound like we lived in you know um in the olden days In the olden days, but it was a time where you only bought one piece.

46:20Yes. And it was a going out piece or you waited for a birthday Christmas or you were bought, you know, it by a partner. So then suddenly we were emboldening women to celebrate their own little milestones. Got the job, got a promotion. Oh, payday. You know what? I deserve it. I worked hard. And that felt really empowering to women. and then it was you remember where you were when you bought the jewelry what it was to celebrate what you felt it made you feel it's so personal and it's so meaningful just like when your friends or you know we had all these friends clubbing together to buy whether it was a 21st a 30th you know even the 40th and that's really meaningful and special yeah and it's that it always comes you know with every brand it comes back to that storytelling and I think that's what it's that feeling and I think you that really really does come across what do you think and you touched on like burnout being I suppose a real pivotal moment for you but equally for the business because you really realized what you didn't want what wasn't working what was working and we touch on this and I kind of it when we speak about burnout it feels like it's not something that we want to i'm always aware of not glamorizing that like we don't want to get to that point where burnout is a thing and i think it's such a female thing that we're taught we can do it all we can spin every plate and we can you know we we made it and we're grafters and it's fine we'll we'll be there whether we're pregnant or whether we're you know going through a miscarriage and we're showing up and we've made the meeting and we're we almost have become guilty of turning that feminine into masculine because we want to make it work so I kind of I really like that you're saying that look I went through burnout and it was shit and I had to find myself and I closed the company and but guess what I learned from that and I don't ever want to be in that position again but you can get your life back on track because I think it's such a it's a really inspirational and you're so kind you know sharing that with us but it is so kind of impactful to hear that you can kiss goodbye to something but also it can feel right again and the tables can turn I think it's a really normally when somebody goes through something or kind of a life-changing moment you don't necessarily press go on the thing that made you feel so low you start something new or you kind of think okay this is where I'm going now and I love it's really brave to go back to something and you know tell your family I'm going to do that thing again and I'm going to that kind of really I think that's what an entrepreneur's journey is when you look at starting your own business you have setback after setback after setback and it's all about learning how to get back up again and then how you move forward.

49:34So it's not about the failure. The failure, my gosh, I'm still making mistakes every day. There's so many. Well, we call them lessons here. Lessons. It's fail fast and move on. As long as you take the learnings from it, which I don't always do either, but as long as you try to, you need to have that perseverance. And what I found is I had so many friends who were amazingly talented and also had their own brands when we were doing all the trade shows, all these friends and we'd travel together, etc. in all different categories. and a lot of them stopped you know over time and slowly kind of gave up their their businesses and their brands for many different reasons be it family be it cash flow be it you know it was too much and I just felt like at one point I was the last one standing and I truly believe it comes down to grit and perseverance and I think over time I learned to compartmentalize and I think that's been a really important life lesson for me where I try and separate out the different elements be it the different problems you know in work or be it family from work or be it any kind of minutiae so that I don't take it all on because I think when I was taking it all on it was getting overwhelming yes I think the only danger is you can compartmentalize too much and and lose touch of, you know, what always really made you the emotional person you were.

50:56But I still think it's really good to try and compartmentalise. Has there ever been a time that you, aside from the business, because we all know, like, when you are steering the ship, you're front and centre, you're chief cheerleader, when you are trying to be all to the business, but also all to everybody, because you do have responsibility when you lead and we know that and you kind of want to lead by example was there ever a time in your personal life where you felt that you were going through something that was extremely tough for you and it was really hard to stay upbeat and positive yeah that chief cheerleader I remember once I was coming back from a kind of launch event and I was with actually the same sales and marketing person who was you know one of my right hand people for many many years and I just burst into tears in the car which I never did at work I've never brought my problems to work and basically I then admitted to her that you know I was going through IVF and you know I was really struggling emotionally I just it was beyond me I couldn't keep the emotions in and I think what happened was I ended up you know doing a lot of um um IVF over the years whilst trying for um a baby and you know the first time was okay the second time was okay by the third fourth etc it was all just too many hormones just I was a bit of an emotional kind of hormonal wreck and what was really nice was that I kind of told people and I told the team and I think there is this honesty in in our team culture and as a result everyone was just really supportive and that I think also maybe is because I was very much in a female um you know predominantly female environment we're about 82 percent female um I love that and you know now there are others who were kind of probably going through the same thing most of my team are of childbearing age and there are so many different situations you know highs and lows for everyone but I think we all support each other through it um and I think by keeping it that really honest and open environment um in a few weeks time actually I've got endometriosis UK coming to talk to the team to educate them on the symptoms and you know how to advocate for yourself and you know where to go for facts so I'm trying to also take you know my personal learnings and you know bring it also to the team and I think you feeling safe enough to have those conversations with your team as in you feeling that to say you know I'm having a terrible time and this has been going on that also then it filters down right so you're making that safe space for everybody and I think it's such a powerful conversation to have you know alluding back to what we were just touching on where we're sort of taught to just go through our things show up to work and do our thing and you know raise a family like we don't have a job and be great at the job like you don't have a family or you're not you know really pining for that and that's something you're wanting I think it's so powerful as women that we have these conversations, you know, on podcasts like this or in your in your workspace, because actually there's there is life to be lived outside of what we're doing.

54:22And I think it's really is protecting that and knowing that that is also important and you're allowed to have journeys that aren't necessarily for me at my little Coco or for you at Missima. Like we're allowed to have a life outside that too. Totally. And I think that, you know, now I bring in my son sometimes to work and, you know, we're so blessed that we now have our little son, Maxie. But I never gave up. But I want to make sure now that whether it's my team or other women, they kind of educate themselves on what they need to know about fertility rates so that they don't leave it too late.

54:57You know, we're all kind of getting married later. We're having children later. so I think you just really need to know to freeze your eggs before 35 and to find out your you know fertility levels because then you can leave it as long as you want because you can have a child at any age yeah as long as there are no major issues which you've had checked out at any age and not worry about my career my this my that it's the best insurance policy in the world and you're so right because I think we sort of we lead our life thinking like I'll do this when I'll do this when And I think a lot of us, like I did, I felt pregnant very young and I had, I was pregnant with my eldest at 23.

55:38So I've, I was very fortunate and I count myself as very blessed and I'm aware like what a privilege that is and was. I think that we live I could have easily not been in that situation and I'm was all I've always been such a career girl and I was lucky that I met my husband when I did and that was kind of where our life took us but it easily it easily might not have been and we have I just think particularly when I was younger it was just oh my god I've got this great career and I'm doing that and oh yeah I'll have kids when I'm ready and you we sort of see it as an option that we're all going to get and a luxury that we're just going to live this life and when we're ready we'll look to start a family but you're so right educating women and having that conversations and you know making a group chat aware of that because it is something that we feel like we've not got around to that yet but we will when we're ready we will when we meet someone where and it's not just fertility rates I think it's just female health in general as well it's something I'm now really passionate about and going to be starting to support well-being of women and endometriosis uk because even though i had so many friends who had endometriosis i had no idea really what it was the symptoms and basically was undiagnosed for over seven years and it's one in ten women not only have endometriosis but some type of um female health issue be it polycystic ovaries why do we not talk about it enough like it's so but not only are we not educated at school about it, which is something that we really want to go to sort of advocate for.

57:17Because you need to teach girls the symptoms. Because it's so often that you kind of, you know, let's say have a really heavy period and your mother goes, Oh, yes, I had that too. It's normal. And if they ask then other questions, like, Are you always tired? Do you have backache? XYZ, you start to put it together. Whereas I was like, Oh, I'm exhausted because I'm exhausted from work. Oh, my backache because I'm getting older and you know it actually became crippling and and then obviously became a long term issue for me and as I said as women we often put up because we've kind of it's been a gradual build and you're like oh no this is how I feel now and this is now the me where you could be having a real different quality of life like you know sort of looking after your health and I think like you say we put things on the back burner because like you know you're running a business or everything else in between.

58:06But you're so right, quality of life, it comes back to that. It really does. So now, yeah, yesterday I was speaking to someone, I'd been telling them about the symptoms that they had been having, and I said, I think you have this. And she said she got checked out, and now she's about to have the operation I had, the surgery. And just any time you can now pay it forward and make sure no one has to get to that point where then they're faced with potential infertility, I want to make sure that we kind of speak up and educate and also educate nurses because nurses aren't looking for the right symptoms and they're not asking the right questions and so it needs to be on both sides the medical and the education well done it's so brilliant it's so so brilliant and it's so I mean incredible that you're sharing that with your team and you know it's the first time I've shared it out loud you know I was nervous about talking about it but it does feel good to be able to just tell people where to go I mean you know you can go and do a 60 second survey and then get a letter that helps you take it to the GP so that they take it seriously because really I tell the team and friends of mine etc who are experiencing certain type of symptoms or problems you've got to advocate for yourself you need to push because sometimes they just don't listen absolutely and you know your body better than anybody and I think your gut again it's just like in business we just need it's like listening to ourselves and trusting ourselves more and fighting for yourself if you think you just haven't got that answer yet and that's just like across the board like we women can detect anything you know female intuition don't underestimate exactly that exactly that I want to ask before we start the rocket round which is always my favorite part I want to ask how Miss Emma looks now how does the team look you know what I know the sort of culture that you're you are breeding which is just so incredible and it sounds like such a beautiful place to work but what's the sort of size of the team I just want to it's been such a journey for you and I hate it that sounds so cliche but to for it to be a kitchen table thing with your mum and have scaled in the way that you have is so inspirational what does what does your role look like now has it changed since the beginning and yeah what does Miss Emma look like now?

1:00:25So it's definitely changed um I actually recently stood down as CEO which was a big move and really scary especially for a control freak I was gonna say I feel you we really planned it before I had my baby and so it was really well planned and and I I made my CFO CEO so she basically had come and already been with us five years Catherine she is the kind of yin to my yang she's my rock she's my sounding board she's a straight arrow it's all about trust and they kept on trying to get me to hire an external I was like but then you need to build that relationship which might work or might not but there's all these horror stories you do here yes and I always think if you can nurture homegrown talent she was he no she was COO before that CFO before that you know she worked in you know many other different businesses from um I'm trying to think uh Topshop etc so she has you know much more experience than me but she is process driven she's considered she's analytical she's everything that I'm not and so we complement each other and it's the you know the biggest advice I could give anyone make sure that but she still gets me she gets my energy my creativity my passion we completely respect each other and at first I was really scared how do I you know let go of all these different areas I used to be involved in every single area from the e-com roadmap to the digital marketing kind of channels budget to I don't know the merchandising buy to the ops but actually it's been a weight off my shoulders because all those areas that I don't naturally excel in I'm just really curious about still get to read about I still get to learn about you know I can ask any question I want there's no one stopping me from but I don't need to be in the weeds yes so now it has allowed me to focus so much more on all the consumer customer facing areas of the business so first we're going into retail so bricks and mortar which has been so exciting and I think one of my dreams you know come true and then I'm learning about a whole new kind of category a whole new channel if you if you like and it's so new to us and we're making mistakes and we're you know we're constantly evolving and learning and that's fine but designing the stores and then learning how the stores work you know the footprint the getting that customer feedback like firsthand you know is just amazing and then also yeah i'm still working on all the brand um any brand element that the customer sees we have our own content studio which is another thing i'm really proud of so we we create every bit of content ourselves so it's not just the product images it could be the still lifes it could be the camp campaigns all done in house by our own photographer we have our own senior producer junior producer uh photographer her retouch her social lulu over there um lulu who's homegrown talent as well because she was an intern that came from one of the uh universities and we were so impressed with her we basically asked her to come back and she's just like grown and grown in confidence and her role you're making her blush i am um but but that's the best kind of thing like to see the team grow and spread their It's so rewarding to see people shine in a way and you really believe in that person.

1:03:36And sometimes you can believe in people more than they believe in themselves. And they need someone like you to be able to really push them in that direction. But no, I love my new role. So I'm now more in, obviously, design and product development, always been. But now we're looking at, you know, new categories. And then there's, you know, there's so many different sides to explore. And then we're going much more. There's more channels every day, not just TikTok, but so many more channels like in China, etc. So there's so many different platforms we need to be working on and content we need to be creating in different nuances for different countries, markets, cultures.

1:04:08So I'm going on a big trip to China in a couple of weeks, which I'm so excited about doing a whole tour there, pop up, events, press. So I feel like I'm also just beginning again almost. And I'm able to front the brand a bit more, whereas I've always been in the background because I've just been so in the weeds working on the business. And now I'm able to just like literally look outside a bit and, you know, meet the customers. Oh, community. So that's something we've been really working on this year. And again, it's since I've come back from mat leave and I have this new role. So we do all these community events and making it really community first.

1:04:45So, you know, we did pottery classes with them when we did a new ceramics collab. We did we do run club. We did something really fun. We did the paddle the other day. Oh, so good. and they're all beautifully like Missima branded and you know it's so fun we just we love brainstorming because what we always want to do is think outside the box we've never been one to kind of follow trends or just do what everyone else is doing we love to do things that are unexpected we love to do like a sort of surprise and delight we love to and we do a lot of like easter egg hunts they're really fun treasure hunts always been my favourite thing and I think now I'm really able to we're brainstorming all the time and it's more what do we focus on because there's so many creative ideas I was going to say it's just like that is you can just see you in your element and you being when I talk about that you can you can just see your whole demeanor changes like this is and I really relate to that because that's me I lose all of the problematic stuff and give me the creative and that is you'll have a brief in 30 seconds like that is that's where I kind of shine and it's so nice that and you know and you know listen they say that you know that you've built and led a pretty epic company when you can step out of the weeds and it runs yeah incredibly well and yeah that's the place that you're at so yeah congratulations also I just love seeing their passion and their drive and if anything I'm the one telling them don't stress because they're so passionate about it they want to go over and above and it's an amazing feeling because I'm not the one pushing them.

1:06:22No one else is asking them to do this. But that's the culture that you've created. And I think sometimes you don't step out of it to acknowledge the fact that that comes from you. It does. Well, I love telling them, I'm like, we're not saving lives, we're decorating lives. I love that. That's the tagline. Right, let's do our rocket round now. Can you imagine how bad I am at this? I talk so much. Well, this, to be honest, no one's great at this because I get women on and when we're together we can waffle. But let's try and make this quick fire if we can. Right, first question is, what do you believe are the non-negotiables for launching a business?

1:07:04Know your customer completely. Who they are, where they are, what they want, what they don't want, what they're missing. They are the most important thing. and if you don't know that you have no business oh yes there you go this is going right I love it always uh what was there a moment and when was it that you first realized that you truly launched for me personally it was seeing someone walking down the street wearing our pieces I bet actually there was one in the street but the one I really remember was in a queue in a nightclub for the loo and the person in front of me was wearing Missima.

1:07:47Made that cue slightly more interesting. Yeah, I bet. What's the first thing that you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? First thing I do is see my son and as I kind of hold him, I'm making my coffee. Yeah, I know that feeling. It's all multitasking, yeah. And the last thing you do before you go to bed? um because he's already in bed right yeah it's

1:08:17I bet you go in are you that parent I do yeah go in and check all the time that's the last thing I'm like have a little sniff I know just look at them and they're like sort of hope I don't wake him up because I'm not ready for the energy yet but I just like to look and think oh I miss him already I still put like the cream smell now on me just so I can smell it um so yeah I do go in and kind of like have a little stare at him but I'm trying to think I'm really bad I don't go to sleep very easily I've got too much energy so I try and read to try and sort of calm me down and escapism because otherwise you're just always on your phone on emails on social or reading the news which is just too depressing so I try and read something really low brow that you can get lost in a little bit yeah a good bit of escapism before bed that's what we need what's one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to so many but I would say spend to grow there was this phase where everyone was like you have to spend to grow and we had been hugely profitable always had been I was really proud of that and they were like no no you need to let go of that and I wish I hadn't listened to that because now we're all back in the era of you only spend if it's profitably yeah so there were a few years you're onto the right thing there um what's a skill that you'd love to learn so many I would love to be a ceramicist like work with um sculpture I'd love to really learn photography properly not just you know a point and shoot and I and I really want to learn more AI you know different channels because we all need to stay ahead we do we all need to stay ahead and it's you know it's scary we do we need to keep up because we would we've discussed this on this show before but there's a lot of worry that we're all gonna lose our jobs to ai and when in reality what we're saying is that we'll lose our job to someone that knows how to use it exactly because it still needs the human prompt and it needs that and i'm trying to i'm enjoying it now we've been using ai for years we've just not known yeah that that's what it is exactly we have i mean i've been using like an ai software tool from this company that does like um spotting counterfeits on marketplaces so especially sort of you know in China marketplaces like Amazon or when they don't realize they've bought in a counterfeit because it's kind of white label counterfeiting so that's always been really interesting because they've been using the AI image recognition but I think for me I want to learn it to increase efficiencies within different departments yes work smarter not harder we're all down for that aren't we yeah um what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your business?

1:10:58I think how lonely it was going to be at the beginning. I don't have that problem now, but those first few years, I think I would have done it with a partner as long as they complemented my skill set or really made sure I had built up a better peer network of other sort of founders and entrepreneurs or had a really great mentor, but who was a hands-on mentor having actually been a founder themselves. Yes. Because theoretical advice never really means anything. You're so right. What would be the dream collab for you? We're seeing all this kind of like brand-on-brand collab. Well, I mean, we were the first jewellery brand to do a collaboration, for example, with an influencer.

1:11:45So I feel like we've been really blessed with our Lucy Williams 10-year anniversary. And I feel like everything we do is all based on relationships. Yes. and really authentic storytelling. So Harris Reid was also a dream collab for me. His talent, his creativity, his energy, we just bonded. And he's still a great friend of mine. In fact, I'm going to his show tonight. Amazing. And I'm still working with all of them. And we've still got more collections coming out. But I think if I was to think outside of jewellery. You know, like something that feels so niche that you're like, I would never have put that brand with that brand.

1:12:15Yeah, I would love to do jewelled elements on homewares. I already have all these designs for like, you know, the jeweled elements on trays or on top of little, you know, boxes. Yes. All these different like ideas, candlesticks. And I think Kelly Wurstler is one of my dream kind of interiors, kind of goddesses. And if not, it would be someone like just a marketing amazing guru like Jacquemus bringing jeweled elements to clothing, like amazing jeweled buttons or a kind of like shoulder sort of, you know, element. Oh, I love that. Kind of like what I'm wearing today. I love jeweled elements. Yeah, I love that idea.

1:12:51But it's nice because it's all pulled back and then I can see that. I love that. And lastly, if you could choose one female figure as a mentor, past or present, who would that be? So I know who that would be. It would be Emma Greed, who you interviewed first. And you know why? I love her no-nonsense attitude. I love her grit. I love her determination. I love her confidence. Oh, it's second to none. and the fact that she also has a family and four children and manages to do it all and I'm sure it's not easy and I'm sure it's not perfect and I'm not you know saying that it's but she owns that and I think that's what's so beautiful about her she's great and also I think it's just also a Brit really making it in the US it is quite unusual to have got to the point that she has I agree and through that sheer grit and just knowing the first company that she had itb which was really amazing just she's a serial entrepreneur and i think that's the thing i love serial entrepreneurs i would love to do other things myself yes in the future um so she really inspires yeah you're so right that's exact that's the great definition of her i also think joe mullay when i think serial entrepreneur too like she's now just she's now releasing vodka and i'm like i love you i just love you like it's kind of yeah it will never stop and there's always something that kind of surprising I love people who surprise you and I love being able to kind of almost do something really out of the box but I think that podcast episode you did with Jo Malone I mean I literally it was amazing she is phenomenal and I'm like I've got so much time for her she is she's the dream dinner party guest yes because she feels calm and considered but still really kind and open she was like talking about you know curiosity and always wanting to challenge yourself it's so amazing when you hear these other you know female founders because you do recognize so many of the same traits you say it's so lonely yeah so it's so and that's like the reason this podcast exists because i love sitting down talking to and meeting women like you it's incredible it's incredible um each episode i ask every guest to leave a tip and it's kind of like a real tangible piece of advice that our listener can take action on I suppose after listening to this so if you was going to speak to somebody that was I suppose looking to do something in a similar space to you and are sort of listening on in awe thinking goodness me what an incredible journey what would one piece of tangible advice be it's so hard to put it into one

1:15:38I think it would be as I said know your customer listen to your gut because no one will know your vision or the brand that you are going to set up as well as you and don't be intimidated by other people who sound like they know more than you oh that's good and then build the team around you that you trust and that you can learn from and that will bring the different areas of expertise that are not naturally your areas in which you excel so that you have a really full-rounded team and expert knowledge to lean on. Yeah, that's very good advice. But at the same time, try and learn all your different channels, at least to a certain degree, because you're only as good as the information you're given.

1:16:28And sometimes people can give you information that isn't the full story. and so you need to know what to question what to ask and how to interpret yes that information and analyze it that is such good advice because that was definitely my weakness I became quite trusting in other people and assuming that this is covered off and this is right and it doesn't always look that way when you're busy and you are kind of across everything it's easy for things to slip and then it's happened over a long period of time and because that's not your strength, you're kind of not tuned into it. But you're not alone.

1:17:04We've all been there, you know. Yeah, it's good advice, but I wish someone had told me that early on. I really do. And then lastly, I ask this question because I like to end on something a little light and we talk about ladies who launch, but equally, as much as I love launching, I love lunching. So how do you spend your lunch hour I know that the hour is kind of less of a thing that exists when you're founding a business. But how do you spend lunch if you were going to take, or you might do, some people are quite strict on having that protected time. Where are you? How does it look on a typical day and what are you eating?

1:17:46Embarrassingly, so I have almost the same thing every day, Joe and the Juice ordered on delivery. Oh gosh, you're so much more like me than I thought. The tuna cardo with extra mozzarella. but the worst thing is I have it during a meeting because I don't have a lunch break and I'm back to back. Breathing fish at everyone. And yesterday I was actually in a design meeting and I swear to God a bit of tuna like fell onto the table as I'm like stuffing it in my face and I was like oh I'm so sorry and I thought they must all think I mean this is, I mean they let me because they know how busy I am but actually this is not very ladylike and I feel like everyone on the other side of this world is like yep that sounds like Rochelle and tuna it's like the most unsociable thing isn't it to open at like a desk with somebody.

1:18:26It's just, you know, it's good though. It's 15 minutes from Deliveroo, so it's what's the quickest. And I always forget to order and sometimes I forget to press that confirm button. You know, there's always that extra step. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's my lunch? But then the only other thing I will say is that I love Lebanese food and so on special occasions, we have Lebanese. What's your favourite Lebanese in London? I mean, I'm a Marouche girl, but there used to be one that I used to always go to, but it's closed down now. but I went every Sunday with my family and our Lebanese friends but home cooked I have a lot of Lebanese friends so well if ever you're back here the Lebanese opposite I've not yet been but apparently it's supposed to be great so there you go the other day during the tube strike there was only about I don't know six people in the office and so we were like we're ordering Lebanese for those who managed to get in gorgeous there you go it's a good day to be in when it's Lebanese day Yes, exactly.

1:19:21Thank you so much. I've loved this. I've loved learning all about you. As I said, I've been such a fan of the brand. And nowadays it really does happen in reverse. But I've been such a big fan of the brand for so many years. And I know you know that because I'm always wearing it. To the point where my stylist was like, you've got to change those earrings because it's all you wear. And it's so nice to meet you and hear everything about, you know, what makes you tick and your story. so I'm even more of a fan of the brand now. Oh, thank you. It sounds like we're very similar. I know, I know. I've loved it.

1:19:55Thanks for taking time to chat to us. Thank you.

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