Ep 60: Inside ILIA’s Growth: The Realities Of Building A Beauty Brand

0:00Today I'm joined by Sasha Plavsic, founder of Illya Beauty, the clean makeup brand that's completely changed the game. After maxing out credit cards and starting out in her parents' garage, almost a decade later she has built a$200 million beauty empire that proves that slow and steady wins the race. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

0:31Sasha Plavsic: Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to sit down and talk to you. And I always like to start these conversations in the same way. And that is by sort of going without being too deep, going back to our childhood, because I really think there's like, you connect the dots to the entrepreneur that you are now and the entrepreneur that you've become. how much do you think the way that I suppose how much do you think the way that your childhood has shaped you and how you see beauty and how you see business where was your childhood what did that look like so I grew up in Vancouver Canada where I'm currently living again and I would say it's shaped me a lot I grew up in the woods outside of the city it's about 35 minutes but it's so isolated.

1:27Like it was just a small cove. There was 20 homes. My dad was an immigrant. He was from Serbia. So he had gone through World War II. He was born in 1930. And I would say being raised by somebody like that very much influenced how I became an entrepreneur, how I approach things, how I choose to solve things, just because, I don't know, he had a very, I think, growing up in a communist regime and then being released from that and being able to find your own way. Like there was such freedom in coming to North America and being able to make your own choices and your own decisions. And that was in the early fifties for him.

2:05So, um, we were the second set of kids. He was, you know, married once before. So, uh, I really, I think had a lot of time to spend with him and just learn really like an old way of the world. Um, he was an architect, So I was very much entrenched in design and art and architecture, and that was his degree. So it was nice to be able to – like I grew up with a lot of color around me, which I think really influenced things. And then, yeah, I had a mom who stayed at home and was really there. And it was like a really beautiful childhood, I think, overall. There was definitely things that – and hardships that shaped me that I've realized over the years.

2:45But overall, I think the influences were all there to kind of pave a pathway for what I wanted to do. and you said something which was really interesting actually because we we look at like striving for certain things or you know wanting a lot but actually the ability in solving a problem and problem solving you kind of for me anyway I was blissfully unaware that that's something and that's a skill set that I'd need when I'm kind of lost in that world of being a creative problem solving is so so important yes and what do you think you learned from your dad when it comes to problem solving resiliency yeah I think there's you know for him again there was it was so limiting where he was from after the war um and to even survive a war yeah you know which was a pretty brutal war and some of the things that he went through and some of the things that he saw he always would say you know you can do anything you want to do you can be anything you want to be It takes a lot of hard work, but really like, you know, the world is your oyster.

3:51And I think he really felt that sense of freedom again, just from being able to choose what he wanted to do and to not have a government per se kind of pressing down on him and his choices. And so that was very much carried through. And I do believe if we're born in certain places or certain countries, there is that opportunity. you know I grew up in Canada but the business was born more or less in Canada and then grew up in the United States and I have to say even between those two countries the United States has so much to offer to a business and their mindset was very much like his I'd actually considered Canada to be slightly more conservative okay and I tried to do the business there but nobody wanted to deal with it people didn't want to manufacture for me they didn't they just there wasn't like the same type of yeah, let's go for it attitude.

4:42And I would say south of the border is really what helped propel the company forward. I actually ended up moving back to California a year after I started it in 2011. And that was where I was able to manufacture. That was where I was able to really do what I wanted to do and be who I wanted to be in a way that I felt was very freeing. So I'm grateful to the United States for that. Yeah, that's so interesting. It does always feel like the land of opportunity it really it really is I don't think that this business would be where it is if I didn't go there I don't think it would have been possible at all that is so interesting let's talk about the younger you in terms of school when you studied did you because like a lot of like you say a lot of those traits of being an entrepreneur are really absorbed they're kind of you know situational and you don't realize that until later on necessarily but when you were at school age did you know what you wanted to study or did you feel like you were trying to figure because a lot of us are figuring out who we are right but then there'll be that unicorn that's like I know exactly what I'm going to do and this is the path that I'm going to take was it pretty clear to you absolutely not oh that makes me feel better yeah no I I wanted to be a vet wow you know when I was really young you know I have a 10 year old and a six-year-old.

6:02And I think, what did I want to be when I was their age? And yeah, I think I thought I'd be a vet. I had like, we had a dog. I had a cat that had several kittens. I had two hamsters, two turtles, two budgies. And I would spend one day on the weekend cleaning all the cages out and taking care of them and really, truly thinking that I was going to be a veterinarian one day. And I mean, I have a dog now and my kids, but I don't think I could be further from it. So, yeah, it was a lot. And I think where I grew up, I would say math and science was very much encouraged and celebrated. I was an athlete growing up as well.

6:43And I always was gravitating more towards the arts, photography, graphic design. This was in the 90s. So you were still developing your own photos in the photo studio. But I was told, you know, oh, that's you're never going to make money doing that. That's not a great place for a career. it was not as encouraged where I grew up and I mean there's certain truth to it but I think at the end of the day what I really realized is that if you really love something you have the potential to be successful at it and I would think eventually you know financially stable from it so yeah that's such a valid point you studied typography and design in London I did which so welcome back Thank you.

7:23It's like it's a second home. So that was really at that point, that was really your passion, right? It was. So like after I left high school, I went to a university in Victoria, which is just outside of Vancouver, and was studying what a lot of people studied philosophy, psychology, sociology, and some photography. and I really just felt like I wasn't quite sure what I was doing. So I left. I took a year off, did a little traveling, worked like as a cashier, as a server. I think I worked at Starbucks when they launched a drink called their Tiazzy and we all had to wear these crazy colorful hats.

8:04But really enjoyed. It was like a very special time. And this was in the, I think, 1998, 1999. It was so different back then. There wasn't the interaction of phones. So you were like, it just felt more lively. Everyone was present. Everyone was present. They wasn't just filming what's in the room. They were in it. Everybody was in it and everybody was present. And I feel nostalgic saying that in midlife, but there was something very special about it. And I did do a program in Vancouver, the Vancouver Film School for 10 months in multimedia. That's what they called it back then. But it was learning Photoshop and graphic design.

8:37And then I worked in the dot com space for a couple of years. 9-11 happened. And I really felt like I wanted to finish a degree and to do it in design properly. And the United States was too expensive. And I ended up getting into, I wanted to get out of the country, but the London College of Printing, which I think is now the London College of Communication. yeah it actually that was really um where i ended up and i mean typography back then was big because it was with magazines and print was still a pretty big thing we actually did a project about paper disappearing and like we all yeah we were like this underground kind of army that were going up to fight to say we can't have paper disappear and like we didn't think it would become like that that's really kind of ultimately what happened like print has disappeared what a skill set to have particularly when building a brand like having that knowledge and having that there's a different mindset in the UK in art school I think some of the better art schools are here and they're much more arty there is a really different way of training here where they are training the mind to think in a very open way and to be very creative and you know they'll give you a brief like gravity and they give you one word and then you have to find ways to represent that artistically oh I love that um but giving you that freedom to be able to take that word and make it yeah yeah like how do you approach it you know something and how do you solve the problem right so like a brief is really there to you know even in my work now different departments will send briefs to each other and then how does that department solve the brief yes so same type of concept and and how do you see the brief right it's kind of like everybody it's so different how you take something on which is the beauty of it.

10:25Yeah how do you see the brief how do you present the brief like right now I our product marketing department they are doing a phenomenal job and but the briefs are very detailed in the most amazing way but when it's briefed into the creative department it's actually too much. Yeah. And the creative just wants to know if we had to focus on one thing in this product what are we trying to say so how do you then narrow down a brief? Simplify it. Yeah because at art school you know they want you to fill your sketchbooks and then at the end of the day like you're starting kind of wide and then you're narrowing down you're narrowing down to more of a pinpointed direction and I really believe with a brand or in marketing you kind of need to do the same thing because you don't have a lot of time to compete with other brands you don't have a lot of time to get the message across to the customer so how do you say or show what you need to in a blink of an eye because you get one chance to to sort of catch somebody's eye for the first time right and it's like what do you what is it that you want me to feel or what do you what am I supposed to be seeing here yes you're right and sometimes it's simplicity is key isn't it um so let's now sort of talk about let's go to 2009 you're back in Vancouver you're on a bit of sabbatical where and when does that aha moment happen for you I think I went through a bit of a journey.

11:44I was living in California, I guess from 06 to 09. So I left here in 05. And I worked in branding and marketing. And I really was inspired in the US. That was my first time living in the US by seeing all these entrepreneurs. And again, there's just that mindset down there that's very driven in that space. And I felt like I wanted to start something or do something. And And a lot of it was side projects. And they failed. One of them was these beautiful silk scarves that I was having hand painted in Bali because I spent time in Bali. And they were really cool. Like they put all the wax on the silk and then they would bleed color kind of like almost like a watercolor across the scarf.

12:28And they were so gorgeous, but it was very tedious. And to be honest, like in today's day and age, I think they're pretty ugly. Your style's evolved. It's evolved. But it was it was like it was a sampling stage. It was a colorful experiment. It was there was a lot of similarities to similarities to what I'm doing. It was just in a different format. And it was not like it was impossible to be able to have production and it just wouldn't have worked. So that was abandoned. I had an idea for a double face wool coat for kids and moms. And that was really fun. But sourcing the fabric, realizing that a lot of it was causing pollution in China where I was looking at it.

13:08it was too expensive to do somewhere else like you kind of go down and you're problem solving and these ideas and then I realized I'm like abandoned ship that doesn't feel right right either um so those were things that I was exploring and then ultimately I kind of looked more I would say I kind of looked more at myself I had really bad skin so I suffered from a lot of acne from age 13 and at that time there were more natural products that were more powdery that kind of would cover but still accentuate the texture. Yes. Or there was like more high glam products that were in some of the designer names or the more prestige cosmetic brands that were kind of coming out at that time that worked, but it would make me break out.

13:47So I really felt like there was a gap kind of like, you know, you think of some of the like French niche brands at that time that were coming out like the Isabelle Maran, the Vanessa Bruno's. There was nobody in the beauty space doing anything like that and so I it was either like the high street right or the high end high street or high end and there was like and for high end like I could relate to some of it but I just that wasn't really accessible to me at the time either so it's like I wanted something that I could relate to more that was a bit more boutique and I couldn't find it um so I thought to myself you know how would I start this or what would I want to explore and one product that I used from London when I was in uni here was the Labello cherry tinted chapstick oh my gosh do you guys still have Labello do we still do is it Nivea now I wonder if it's maybe Nivea I know the cherry chapstick you're talking about that brings me back that I can even like taste it yeah they had like cherry there's a couple different who was it chaps or something yeah so I think it was bought by Nivea in the US but Labello was here 20 years ago wow and I always had a nice stain from that cherry chapstick so you like the kind of after the yeah yeah there was like a beautiful stain and it was really moisturizing but when I looked at the ingredients I was like wow I wonder if this could be done in a more cleaner well now the word is clean but really it was a more natural way so that was my brief I was like can I make my libello cherry tinted chapstick more natural and that's how it was really started and that it was that a$25 ,000 line of credit two credit cards you know working a day job and then coming home and working from like eight till two in the morning for two years and how did you know where to start because obviously you've been I mean up until this point it's been very colorful for you you've got sort of lots of different experience and lots of different backgrounds but how did you think okay I'm going to start developing this how did you where did you start was it from a kind of business plan perspective or was it straight up creative creative I've got this benchmark and I'm on a mission I had a benchmark um the name is actually I I have it's somewhere in the archives but I had a huge piece of um sketching paper tracing paper and I've always loved the name Ilya it's a family name it was my uncle's name it's my brother's middle name it sounds really feminine in English yes gorgeous but it's a masculine name in Slavic languages.

16:20So it kind of had that like masculine and feminine. When you write it in caps, it's really clear. You have all those sticks that are very architectural. If you put it in lowercase, you can't see it at all. So there was like, it would go invisible. So there was something kind of alluring about it. So I kept playing around with drawing the logo. And that's how I would say it started knowing that the brief was this chapstick. And it just started like that. So what does the logo look like for this brand that I'm trying to create how would I package this and I think having the graphic design branding creative background when people say did that help you absolutely yeah yeah you know I didn't have to hire anybody I could kind of do it myself uh people you can articulate exactly what you're thinking because that's always my problem yeah I'm like I've got this idea and I'm thinking but I'm like if I had that skill set I'd be dangerous because I would never sleep and be you know because I know exactly what I want and I'd be their hours perfecting but for me that is always the problem where I can see it and it's not being quite articulated how I want and that process can take time quite a long time yeah which is an incredible incredible skill set to have when I think of Ilya now I just think of these go like the packaging everything is so gorgeous so clean so premium feeling those first rounds of design we're bad so it didn't look where it is now or was it still that kind of feel that clean that sort of uh it was clean back in 2009 yeah it was minimalist the logo used to be thin like really like there was a lot of thin you think about nars even like they they kept it which is amazing um you know the design around that is probably like it's iconic really but it was a thin logo which eventually we did rebrand in 2019 so it started you know I did the branding in 209 and the brand launched in 2011 and it was so small but it was more of like a silvery gold Pantone and I had this we still have the case it's on our balmy tint which is our like it's like the lip balm kind of lipstick product that is what that emulated yeah from the labello but I would say yeah we still have the same case but the logo and some of the design changed and changed and it became much cleaner when we rebranded in 2019 2020 it's it's so so strong so I want there are so many stages and phases which is incredible so I want to I want to make sure we complete all of them let's let's talk about so you're you've really got this creative vision that's what you do you've got this benchmark how was you on the other side of the fence like bringing a business to life how was that for you did you have kind of is that a strength of yours putting a business plan together and getting something off the ground from a financial perspective and everything else in between I think where I was lucky in in that time is that social media barely existed so what beautiful time I mean it has so many benefits and so many pros but like like you said before it's such as that's such a special time where everything wasn't so dependent on social media it wasn't you know and I didn't have a big business plan I had$25 ,000 I think the the whole thing cost me$35 ,000 to launch I had 10 ,000 pieces that were made I people asked if I was making it in my kitchen and I was not um I know there's people that do that I think I I think that's okay for some things but ultimately like with all of the regulatory and the testing and you know this I don't see how that I personally don't see yeah it's not very safe I think now, I'm just not sure how that would happen now.

19:59There is so much red tape that you don't have any control over, right? And you're submitting for testing and claims and everything else in between. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't trust my kitchen. I mean, I love my kitchen. I don't think I could quite handle that. And I mean, and for lipsticks in general, like it's quite a process. We still use book molds. You know, you can have it done with a silicone machine, but a book mold is you have the formula. You would hot pour it into the book, like a metal book mold that has that lipstick mold. And that generally all needs to be done with a manufacturer. So I found one in California who really, her and I went through so much together for this first formula and got it to a stage where we kind of felt like it was something different.

20:36It was really comfortable on the lips. It had a point of difference to the market. And yeah, I would say like it was very much kind of the beginning of figuring out, you know, what is this going to look like? And at the time, I actually, it took two years. And when I went to market, I was still working another job because I think people don't realize how expensive it is to start something and how much in debt you will go. And you could go really in debt, you know, but back then you didn't need to. Like I would just walk into stores and ask people if they would take it. I sent off a note to Colette in Paris and I didn't know anybody.

21:12And I had beautiful stationery that was letter pressed with typography, you know, and had it and wrote a nice note naively and they took it. That's incredible. And that was very lucky and very naive of me to, like, I didn't realize what a big deal that was. Net-a-porter here, when they launched Beauty in 2013, they took it. So there was no big accounts. Like, those are notable accounts, but I wouldn't say they generate a ton of volume. So what was lucky is that I had the time to live in three garages and build this business really slowly and only be a few million in revenue within the first five years.

21:47so it was very slow in the beginning but the market wasn't ready for the category the category actually hadn't even been developed because people said what are you you're not natural you're not or you're not totally natural you're not totally organic and you're not conventional what are you and I said I don't know but this is what I am and that was actually it was the beginning of the clean category god that is that is such a kind of interesting point and how incredible but also how frustrating at the same time to be you're actually ahead of the market not necessarily predicting that this is the way the world is going to move but you've got something that people are kind of a bit confused i'm sure about i guess yeah and i'm so i'm so happy that you touch on how kind of how financially taxing it is for a founder at the start of a project like this because people assume that you're kind of you've got these these contracts and you're at net-a-porter which is incredible but it's not going to be massive volume it's that kind of gives you that it's a premium outlet that gives you that vanity piece almost but it's not gonna you're not jetting off around the world and you've got this kind of it's not giving you this open checkbook no and i think a lot of people see on the outside and particularly with social media now that you're in this store and you know selfridges does that here although harrods or these big department stores that come with this kind of glossy idea that it's and they are incredible and it's a real illusion it's a real gold star to say that we are accepted here and this is the level that we're at right but it is it can really be an illusion and i remember talking to sunday riley on the podcast and she was saying that she was in Bloomingdale's and here, there and everywhere, but she went to check out in the grocery store with her daughter in the trolley and she couldn't.

23:42And people don't talk about that enough and how, as I said before, how financially taxing that start of the journey is, even when you are stocked in these wonderful retailers. Yeah, no, the beginning was very financially taxing. And I mean, granted, I didn't have children yet, and I had more freedoms because I didn't have those responsibilities. responsibilities um you know of a family either so there were more freedoms in the beginning but then actually when I was pregnant in 2015 my dad passed away and it was very sudden and he more or less said to me you are the one of I have two half siblings and a younger sibling he's like you are the one of the four that has to step up I know and I hate to say that like you know there's things that happen in your life and I was kind of mad because I'm like I don't really want to take that on that responsibility yeah but I also you also just kind of do I think or at least I did and he said that knowing that that's exactly what you could do yeah and he said I think you have the potential to go really far and the business was still really small my brother had joined me at that point to help so it was more like a little family business at least between him and I and it wasn't super serious I mean we were still I think just a couple million in revenue I think had just got out of debt that year so that's you know four or five five years later getting out of debt um and just having a you know a break even really so it took but enough to live off of i'm always really interested in this because i think some incredible success stories have happened where family team up and and work together on these incredible businesses but also when i think and I put the shoe on my foot I think gosh it adds another layer of pressure and that family dynamic how how was it sort of having that journey I'd not begin because you'd you'd been doing it for a bit anyway but that is still very much the start of Ilya's journey with your sibling how was that for you guys as family not great no I would wonder that because it was not great I've spoke to a lot of women on here and they've had incredible stories but I just cannot imagine it it wasn't the best idea you know in hindsight but I also knew that I had somebody that had my back yes which was really important special it's special you know and we did build a lot of those beginning pieces together I think the business did get to a certain size eventually that didn't make sense for my brother as much.

26:10And it wasn't until 2016, I just had my first baby and I was sitting in a Sephora meeting and they said, you know, we want to create this new category and we want you to, we want to be basically your, would you like to be the guinea pig to test it? Yes, you're ready for my category. Finally, I've been waiting for this moment. Yeah. So we actually came up with the list for the Clean at Sephora together. And that was really, that was a moment where I was sitting in there, I think I had my breast pump sitting next to me. And I was with Alison Hahn, who was the head of color there for over a decade.

26:45She just recently retired. But I leaned over to her and I said, you know, I really don't know this world. I know the boutique world, but I don't know this world. And this is a big world. And I am going to need some help. Do you know anybody that could help me? And I've said this before on podcasts, but that's really, you know, when I met my partner, who she introduced me to, who had worked and run Too Faced Cosmetics. uh bobby brown and this woman linda berkowitz came in as a consultant um and eventually she came on board as my ceo and took a risk on us when we were so so small and that was the beginning of the journey where two years after that we got funding then we did another round and then really actually it was during covid that the brand exploded and it was the right everything i think was based on the timing and I think when you think of like you launched or 2011 took almost a decade nine is where you kind of have the idea and then you're talking 2020 to really see that kind of the world catch on to you know your brainchild it's so reassuring for so many women to hear that because I think we're in this age now where it's kind of it's all about quick growth and you know it's everything's fast-paced and it's founder-led content and it's brands are sort of the graphs that are pinging like that overnight it's so reassuring to hear how gradual it's been for you and you're very much in this boom now and it's incredible but slow growth is also a thing too.

28:26Yeah, yeah. No, I think what was great about the slow growth is that you have time to make so many mistakes. So I had a line that was eventually completely discontinued by 2017, except for a few handful of products, because I tried to make some of the products more natural. The technology wasn't there yet. So I went through this whole learning curve for the first several years, of which I'm like, this is not good enough. That's not good enough. And then, again, technology improved. Like we launched our Limitless Lash Mascara, I think, in 2017 or 18. That's a long time ago already. It took three or four years to become the number one mascara at Sephora.

29:05And it took another three years to become the number one family with our other mascara. We just got it this year. So it was a seven-year journey to kind of be the number one collection, more or less, at Sephora overall. and I don't think people realize like even in launching a product to build the marketing up around it and to get it to a spot not that you're just at for a flash but you can actually hold for a long period of time takes a lot of slow and steady slow and steady slow and steady you know and constant attention and how do you bring attention to your heroes that's one thing I can say like if you are in the product market what's your hero how do you celebrate it how do you get people to try it make sure you don't take your focus off of it we have two you know and and we And one of them was launched in 2017 and the other one was launched in 2020.

29:52And we still have to and they are a big portion of the business. And we still have to beat that drum, you know, and make sure we call back to it often because it now at this size, you know, you make a little mistake and it can be quite expensive. Yeah. Now, how do you think the kind of the way that you it goes back to problem solving again? Right. But the way that you handle, I suppose, decision making. however that looks how do you think it changes for you versus kind of somebody that would have had that quick growth overnight because obviously there are pros and cons in everything right you say quick growth maybe it would have been a lot easier to get funding earlier on or however that may may look but how what do you think is a real win i suppose that you've got the experience on your side right and that you know the dna of your brand over time that you perhaps wouldn't we wouldn't have had the time to if you just launched last year and then sephora's on and it kind of is all a little bit like that hamster world isn't it i suppose yeah well i think for us i say this often we were first in best dressed when it comes to being a clean makeup brand in Sephora.

31:07So we were really the first to launch, the first to kind of be trialed, the first to fail at certain products, and then the first to really go for it in other areas of opportunity. And that really did give us a leg up. And we didn't have a lot of growth. But then, and these numbers are public, we raised$3 million in 2018. And I think we're only$5 million in revenue. In 2019, we raised$10 million, ran out very quickly. And at that year, we were at 15 million the next year we went to 37 and then the next year after that we went to 100 so the growth it's like there was no growth and we were sub 5 million for a decade and then all of a sudden there was an explosion and that growth was like whiplash because you're trying to build the team you're trying to be ready for the growth yeah we couldn't predict it yeah actually so we had to figure out how to scale you know and how and i we hired somebody in operations who had come from L 'Oreal.

32:03He just actually left a couple of weeks ago. He was with me for the last six years. And, but we really, I mean, it's amazing where he started with only 10 people in the business and where he left it from a supply chain standpoint. But that is such a critical piece of the business when you are anticipating major growth. And I think that piece alone, I mean, all pieces are critical to making something happen, but that piece alone, once it got ironed out, really helped set us in the right path and how does that sort of level of growth feel because obviously it's it's so incredible to see and look on from the outside but how does that make you feel as a founder uh I don't think there's a lot of time to absorb it you sit back and actually take stock yeah yeah I think like I mean I had a I had another kid in 2019 so 2020 I had like a six year old and that will tell you five year old and a one year old yeah and and there was that and then there was I was really in the business like to a point I have talked about this too where I like I burned out hard a few times um and and then we sold a big piece of it in 2021 and I actually we moved to Vancouver and I had a kidney start to shut down so it was very much uh my body saying to me stop stop you know and I think like like to your point you know problem solving I loved it so much it's almost like I was addicted to trying to make everything work but ultimately you know I would say it was not necessarily um the healthiest thing you know in in the long run so in the last three four years I really figured out how to balance my life a little bit more and do you think like sometimes as women we hold that almost like a badge of honor and we get a little bit have sort of a bit of a toxic mindset to how hard we work and it almost becomes our whole personality I'm guilty of it like I'll be you know I'm happy to be the first one in the last one to leave we do what it takes but it's almost like it it becomes part of your personality and you kind of I'm a hard worker yeah and I almost think sometimes it's okay to take that time for yourself and I'm all and I'm all for it but it's an interesting thing and I'm not sure if that's something that has has been with me since being a child but actually it can be quite a toxic mindset to have I was saying actually a couple of weeks ago um to my friend we were talking about this that you know and I pride myself on being a hard worker and that makes me a great person and it's kind of what we've all told ourselves and I remember it was last year that my daughter had written me a birthday card and they sent me some lovely cards and wrote some gorgeous messages and one of the things was mummy I love you so much you work so hard and I thought this is really it's become my personality now at this point but it's interesting how like I said that we kind of wear that as a bit of a badge of honor were you in that place yeah I was I'm not in that place anymore and it's a wonderful thing where you where where you free yourself of that how do you where did you how did you get arrive at that destination did a lot of did a lot change when you sold a large portion of the company Is that like, okay, let's enjoy the fruits of this labor now?

35:30I think so. We had investors that also were pushing to sell once we reached a certain threshold. And I was on the fence about it. And I think there was a lot of luck involved in that because it was a good time to do it. It's a lot harder nowadays than it was back then. And we were lucky. The business was really strong. and we had the right people running each department. I think one thing too when you're running a business, you're obviously doing everything in the beginning yourself, but there will be some things that you're better at. Like for me, I was better at creative. I was better at product.

36:07Finance I could balance because I didn't really hire a lot of people, but was that my area of expertise to run a proper P &L? No. So making sure that you have the right people who are better than you in certain areas I think was really, really important. um and yeah and then figuring out just I mean we're all kind of after balance in some ways and I'm very fortunate and grateful that I was able to be in a position to take some of the heat off yeah and uh not everybody's in that position and I get that but I think it's uh but it wasn't always you earned the right to be in that position it didn't always we we discussed that like being the CEO or being a founder at this in those early years of a business is the most unsexy role ever yeah it feels like such a hot title doesn't it I'm the CEO but really that means you're head of finance you're the cleaner you're the head of creative you're everything in between you know it's it's a lot and in 2016 I gave that title away because I think that unless you are an operator that understands and a CEO to me they're an operator yeah you know and a founder can be an operator, but they usually often are also creatives.

37:20And was I a better operator or was I better creative? And I was a better creative. So I gave the title away. And I remember my brother's like, you can't give that away. And I'm like, it's just a title. And I was like, honestly, it doesn't mean anything to me. He's like, no, but you're the founder. You need to be the CEO. I'm like, no, I don't. And by giving it away, I gave it to somebody who knew how to be a CEO and was a CEO and understood what it was to be a CEO of a company that could go to 100 million. Yes. So by taking that off of me and giving it to somebody that knew how to drive that car, I could go drive the car that I wanted in my lane for product and focus on that.

37:58And they could focus more on operating the company. But that's, you know, that's a testament to you too, because sometimes and some people find it really hard to sort of, it's an ego thing, right? Yes, it is. Leaving the ego at the door and saying, actually, you are so much better at this than me. Also, how much do you love your baby? How much do you love your brand? Because if we're all honest, we know what our strengths are, as you say. And my strengths will never be financed. If there's a budget, I'm going to go over it. My husband won't back me up on that point, too. And it's being true to yourself.

38:34But leaving your ego at the door enough to say, no, no, no. this is I want this to fly and I want this to grow and it isn't yeah going to with me yeah no well luckily like when we did it she's like you still get you're the boss you know you still get the final say so there was an understanding between us and we worked so we were actually kind of known as a duo in the industry and her and I could kind of read each other's mind when we were in meetings and would kind of play both sides of what we needed and it was a true partnership Whereas if we did not agree on something, we would meet and talk and sometimes discuss it firmly in front of the team, but in a way that was respectful enough to argue each side and then reach a resolution for what was best for the business, which is also where you kind of have to move your ego aside.

39:21It's like, what is the best decision for the business? And it's still a conversation that happens today because now we're so much bigger and there's so many more things that have to be met. And we do have a certain EBITDA that has to be reached and a certain percentage. and a certain top line, a certain bottom line, a certain percentage of growth. And it's so much bigger. There's so much more. But we still have to remember, you know, that we're making product and that we have to put the best product on the shelf for our customers. Like what is going to differentiate us from somebody buying our mascara or somebody else's?

39:52Like how do we, like that little moment, whether it's on social media or when somebody's standing in front of your product at a store, there's just a split second again for them to like be captured by that, you know. And we get so bogged down into all these details and the P &Ls and the forecasting and all this stuff that's so important. But if you just zoom out for a second and think about where that magic happens for that transaction, that doesn't ever change. That's always like from the first transaction to where I am now, we have to think about recreating that magic. So I think it's important to stay outside at times.

40:30Yeah, it is. It's important to always zoom out. yeah how how would you say your role has changed since you sold a large portion of the company how how would for you personally but like day to day yeah a lot I think um you know the um Clarence uh purchased a majority of the company they actually more or less purchased the whole thing and then I bought back in which was a really nice way to do it yeah so I still have some ownership in the company and they are more hands-off, fairly hands-off in the sense that we're really operating on our own. So I still get to more or less decide a lot of the products that we want to launch with the team.

41:09There's an approval process where we work on that together to green light something. I would say my role has changed in that over a three-year period I pulled way back. So I'm still involved in product and creative and I get to interact with leadership. I get to go and do press and things like this. I probably work like three full days a week. But I have some flexibility more to be around my kids and do a few other things. So yeah, I've like positioned it in a way where it's healthy. Yeah, it's more healthy. It's more it really is more balanced, you know, and that wasn't my accident. I worked really hard at doing that.

41:47Like I worked with a coach. There's a lot of things that I did to get myself there. But it was important to do that. I'm just reading these numbers here and do correct me because sometimes we get these and they're a little bit older. But you've grown earlier from those six lip tints in 2011 to a$200 million global brand. You're selling one limitless lash mascara every 15 seconds. Like insane. How does it feel as Sasha to read that? Sometimes it doesn't feel true. Again, it's become so big. 30 plus countries in multiple stores. Yeah. I still like to think about that interaction with the customer and that little moment of sale with that one customer.

42:41I think to me, like, if I look at how big it is, I think sometimes I feel like I get lost in the storm of all of it, which is amazing to see. But I still want to stay connected to it kind of in a more intimate way. It's kind of what keeps me maybe honest throughout that in some way. And it makes it feel like it hasn't really changed, you know, not to say it's changed for the worse because it got so much bigger. But there's something, you know, you can get, again, bogged down by something that looks so big. So if I really narrow in on what I'm good at doing with the company today and stay focused on that with product, for example, I can keep doing what I'm doing and not really notice the changes as much.

43:20And to keep customers, I suppose, engaged in that way is everybody, every customer wants to feel like it's just them shopping, right? I think so. You want to feel like this is you, this is your, even in your girls group chat when you recommend something, like you take pride in it being your recommendation and like you problem solving for somebody else. I think that is a real, like you say, a special thing and focusing on that, catching that one customer's eye. Yeah, I think so. It's pretty incredible. Yeah, word of mouth and getting product in people's hands. There's still something. In Canada, not everybody knows about it.

43:54I'd say more people, like it's grown a lot and people know about it. But in the US, it's definitely like where we're really strong. And sometimes when I go do things in Canada, if people haven't heard about it, it's exciting to get the product into their hand. To educate them, yeah. Yeah, like at my kid's school or something, if there's like a little gift bag and it kind of feels like the old days. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll be popular at the school. For sure. For sure. What's next for Elia? Because it seems, like I said, like it's been it's such an incredible story of slow growth, but incredible growth.

44:26What is next? I think, you know, a lot of our values come into play for what we like to do. One of them is Thinkfully. Right. So Thinkfully is really like thinking of things more from a 360 degree perspective. And I would say with our product, we're starting to look at that a little bit more. So we have a big library, but there's still a lot of opportunity. For example, Skin Tint, you know, that's one of our best-selling products. It's a foundation. It's skincare. It's SPF all in one, you know. And it's, yeah, it's everything in one bottle for complexion. But we have other pathways that we're starting to explore where we would break that out a little bit differently.

45:04I think there's different trends and coverage that are coming. So being able to have a library that, you know, you remember how when, I don't know if you remember the Clinique counters, and this was also way back. and you would be able to find your skin type and then they would kind of build a story for you based on that. I do think there's a lot of opportunity there for us with our library because the purpose of if people meet me and they say, what do you do? My elevator pitch, I guess you could say, is I make makeup that makes your skin better. So we're really looking to change people's skin so that it's looking better, but it actually the ingredients in there are truly healing the skin, repairing the skin, benefiting in the skin in a way where it's balancing everything out so that you can really have your best skin.

45:49So yeah, I'd say, you know, that that is something that we really strive towards and will continue to strive towards as our North Star for the company. It's so, honestly, it's so, so incredible to see. And that, there's something so visually pleasing to me about anything that has a pipette on it. Oh, really? Yes. And those skin tints are just so so incredible they feel they do feel like skincare and I'm always that person that it feels like a real treat like self-care when you're doing your makeup yeah I know it's got like really amazing ingredients in it that really nourish the skin plumps gives elasticity you kind of get like that light to medium coverage but it doesn't feel so makeupy on the on the face absolutely that I want to do a rocket round now yeah which is essentially well there's we like to say they're quick fire questions but when two girls are talking it's never that quick um but we'll do our best i ask every guest the same question so the first one is what do you believe are the non-negotiables for running a business non-negotiables for running a business um you have to be honest about what's happening um you can't give up and you have to stay true to what you believe is right especially as you get bigger because I think people will have a lot of different opinions yeah but you also having a brand know generally what is right for your brand and to ensure that you always listen to that intuition yeah you're so right as it gets there's a lot of noise isn't there and it can be really distracting but knowing those we say brand guidelines don't we to sort of communicate that to other people but knowing what is in the DNA and not yeah being distracted which which I would say being clear on your values.

47:35We didn't do, we did values, I think in 2014, 15. And we had some before, but then we did it. And we really did it properly again over the last few years and really hammered that in, especially as the team got bigger. And I say, I would say that is how we solve a lot of problems is to look to the values. So that's also, I would say a non-negotiable that I wish I did sooner because it really helps set the stage for how we work through things. Yes, that's interesting. when did you first realize that you truly launched I think probably getting into Colette yeah yeah that was like a little moment I think I did a trip to Hong Kong there was like some packaging sourcing that I was doing over there and I was wandering around I had a good friend that lived there back in I think it was 2011 or 2012 and I was like wow you know we made it into Colette we're real yes we actually exist yeah seeing something in real life that is yours that It lives up here for the longest amount of time.

48:32And seeing that on a shelf is a pinch me moment for sure, isn't it? What is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed? I know you're probably jet lagged at the minute, so it's all probably a bit upside down. Yeah, at home, I probably let my dog out. Yes, good. In the morning, I would say, and get out of bed. I try not to reach for my phone. I try to take a moment on that. and then the last thing I do before going in but I'm actually reading again so yeah after I put the kids to bed. Are you reading anything good at the minute? Lots of different books I'm actually just about to start Elizabeth Gilbert's is it take me I think it's called take me down to the river I just got it and I'm going to start it but yeah that's something I'm looking forward to.

49:16I'll have a little look we like to do a little book club on here I'm always getting recommendations yeah um one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to one piece of advice that I wish I hadn't listened to um yeah listening to too many other opinions yeah you know I think like it's important for people to get to or to be heard um but I think that it's an and and that sense of equality on a team is somewhat important but it's also important to know who owns what role and to make that really clear out of fairness to your team and out of fairness to how to make decisions to move forward.

49:56So I would say, yeah, clear decision making. Sometimes people would say like, oh, well, these people want to weigh in and this and that. And it's like, okay, but we got to move forward, you know, and who owns that decision, right? And then getting clarity around that once we straighten that out in the team. And it's still kind of, we need to go back and iron it off but I would say it really um it made things a lot easier to move forward yeah that's a good way to frame it like who owns that decision because we talk about roles and responsibilities but it always does get a little bit gray gray doesn't it but yeah who owns that decision and who this is this that's a that's a very interesting way to frame it I love that um what is a skill that you'd love to learn I'm actually learning piano again no way I love this I played when I was 9, 10 and 11 and I made it to Furry Lees.

50:46And I used to dance too. And piano and dancing probably would have been a better pathway for me. My dad wanted me to be a swimmer. So I became a competitive swimmer. And I learned a lot doing that too. Although it was not necessarily, I went for several years. It was not necessarily for me. Such discipline, isn't it? I know that a couple of my daughter's friends swim competitively. competitively and that the time they have to get up before school to do the heart oh yeah I always think gosh it was wild I can't believe my parents well we would all take turns carpooling but yeah it was really intense intense yeah yeah how lovely that you're learning that again yeah I just started my kids are playing piano and I think I it's something that I've wanted to do and uh there's a song from Jan Tiersen uh from the Amelie movie I think it's called Comptoir de Nete or something like that and uh yeah I've always wanted to learn to play it so it's different though like the piano teacher she's actually Serbian so I feel like I can she's so lovely my kid's piano teacher and piano teacher and she um she said you know when you were 11 the way that your brain connects to your fingers is totally different yeah I bet and now you know in more midlife she was right like my hands kind of want to move faster but they they can't they can't so humbling yeah so she's like but you'll you'll get there she's like you just need to practice and remind yourself funny you look over at your 10 year old and they've just got it and you're like yeah that like hand-tie coordination when they're kids like they can play video games fast they can and it's like oh okay I guess that makes sense but you didn't realize it so and also don't tell me that yeah um what is one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your career and before you launched ilia um I think, yeah, slow and steady wins the race.

52:35You're testament to that. Yeah. I think, you know, in the beginning, I thought I would be – I think a lot of people, even when I look at business plans today, business plan is just like it's a wish on paper. It really is. To say that, you know, you're going to hit it, it's kind of like a birth plan. Yeah. You know, like people will have a birth plan and like everyone's like, oh, God, the birth plan did not go according to plan. And it's like, no, it did not, you know. You had its own mind. Yeah. You don't hear that many people where it like went to plan, right? And I'd say for businesses, it's a similar thing.

53:05So, yeah. Because it only works if it connects. Yeah. If someone wants to buy it and they buy it again and again. So, exactly. It really is a wish. It's written down. Yeah. So, I think like the debt was scary. That was really hard, like almost running out of money many, many, many times. So, yeah. and I also yeah I think but we were still cautious but yeah I think you have to have patience there and I will say I even see today a lot of brands some that I even invest in how they spend the money and um then they run out of money and it's a hard it's a hard thing to to balance yeah it's a hard thing to balance yeah particularly when you're a founder and that pressure feels like it's on you aiming one way yeah yeah absolutely and that is where you say like it can become a little bit toxic of the pressure you put on yourself and also it's not just pressure you put on yourself it's outside too yeah you know you have that pressure to deliver and it can be really scary isolating so it can be a lonely world being a founder yes it really really can um what would be the dream collab for ilia oh whether that's a person or brand on brand collab yeah we are doing a few things i don't know how much i'm allowed to say but we're actually we're doing a collab with a tile company out of california which yeah it's uh yeah we have our color palette you know that's going to be a bit playful and we're actually redoing some offices and we have a new office space so there'll be some stories that will weave through there and uh there again there's that kind of art and architecture pillar that we get to lean back into I love it when you see brands from completely different spaces yeah where because of course you know everything can exist at once right totally as a consumer you lose use lots of different brands in lots of different places and you all have that same customer but I just love it when it feels so niche I'm like oh yeah um and And then lastly, if you could choose one female figure, past or present as a mentor, who would that be?

55:15Cher. Love that. And why, tell me, why Cher? I think she's cool. Yes, she's very cool. I think, you know, her mom, I think there's a quote from her and her mom said, you know, you got to go marry a rich man, mom. And she said to her mom, mom, I am the rich man or something. And I think I read her memoir. I feel like she was somebody who was so ahead of her time from a fashion standpoint she took a lot of risk like I think another thing is the business you have to take risk in order to grow you have to you have to be willing to risk a lot as a founder and she did that in so many ways and lived her life in a very interesting way that yeah I think is somewhat admirable for a woman of her time iconic yeah she's iconic isn't she it'd be great to have her on speed dial um and then every episode i ask our guests to leave a tip if you could sort of look back at your career if there was one sort of piece of advice that you would give to a lady looking to launch that's listening to this today what would that be enjoy the little moments oh yes yeah enjoy the little moments because they go fast and um i think we're always in our life like when we get here I'll be I'll have this when I get here I'll have that but looking back I would say some of the best times were in like the hardest struggles of this business and you know there is like a rush to like if we don't figure this out we might have to fold yeah and yeah and those are little moments that are worth enjoying because everything is always changing nothing stays the same that is such lovely advice because it's true you're something will happen and you're you don't feel like you have time to acknowledge it because then okay that's great we've we've reached that and now that this is the next thing or the next event or the next launch or the net however that looks yeah and you don't sort of take time to be present yeah you got to celebrate your wins and you got to celebrate your wins with your team yes you know some things are not going to be wins and some years are hard uh it's a little bit of a harder year last year was a little bit of a harder year but there are still big wins so where where can we celebrate our wins where do We know we have opportunity.

57:33Yeah, you've got to celebrate your wins. I love that. I love that. And then lastly, I ask everyone this because I'm nosy and I also love food. We talk about ladies who launch, but when it comes to being a lady who lunches, how do you typically spend your, well, I always say it's a bit of an elusive lunch hour because actually saying that some founders are very strict and they take time for lunch and that's very important but some are like what's a lunch break i eat in a meeting and it is what it is how do you spend your lunch hour where are you what are you doing and is there a go-to meal that's that's a loaded one i would say well now living in vancouver i work from home nice more and I actually, if I could give another tip is block off your lunch hour because you will eventually burn out and if you're able to take that break I actually encourage our entire team please don't schedule meetings between 12 and 1 don't do that, there's enough already and I think like can you take a break kind of helps regulate everybody everybody gets a moment so I'm usually going for a walk with the dog around 12 to 1 and I would say if I'm traveling it's gung ho and I don't really get my lunch hour but walk with the dog at home and then uh in the winter it's soup with maybe some cheese and toast oh that's a good one it's soup season yeah it really is what's your soup of choice um i like a good butternut squash oh yes maybe a pumpkin nice yeah some of the orange vegetables i like you more now i like your soup choice it's crazy um thank you so much this has been such a lovely conversation and I'm honestly from the outside what you've achieved is just so so incredible you should be incredibly proud it's so inspiring to hear your story and I think our listeners will take a lot from this so thank you thank you so much for having me

59:38don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure that you don't miss out because next time we're going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched. If like me you're a watcher then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.