Ep 65: The Truth About What Really Happened with Plantmade ft Ama Hill

0:00Today I'm joined by Ama Hill, entrepreneur and founder of PlantMaid. We last spoke early last year and discussed her journey of building a mission-led beauty business. Now this time she's back to talk about administration of PlantMaid and ultimately her departure from the company that she created. Ama's journey is one that speaks to the realities behind entrepreneurship and in this episode we're going beyond the headlines to hear her side of the story.

0:30Five, four, three, three, one, zero. All engines running. Five, three, open time. You're back. Hello. You're our first guest. I feel so honoured, honestly. Our first guest to do two episodes, which, I mean, I love this. This is incredible. It's A, good to see you. But B, I feel like you've had a real season in your life that you need to talk. Like this is your time to have a space, a safe space to tell your truth. When you are a founder that, and we spoke about it when you were on last time, that, you know, your founder led content is what's kind of driven a lot of your success. Yeah. You need that space to be able to talk openly and authentically when things don't perhaps go in the way that you planned.

1:22Of course. Yeah. Right. So I think it's, I'm pleased that you're here. I feel like it's long overdue for you. And I feel like after this, everyone can move on. Yeah, we can all just move on. Get on with their lives. That's where we're headed. So let's talk about PlantMade because you founded PlantMade in 2020. Yes. You were the sole director, sole shareholder. This was your brand, your company. Yes. Your vision. Yes. So when we last spoke, you sat here in March 2025, which seems like an actual lifetime ago. I think your episode was out in the June. But from the outside, it sort of looked like a founder building momentum in what is a real competitive space, a competitive industry.

2:06Beauty is hard, yes. The products were profitable. The brand had that visibility. You were doing an incredible job. And I know that's kind of, that's what you continue to do since. but your content is so inspiring to women, so aspirational, real and honest about your journey and the kind of, it was very visible from the outside to see how all consuming it was for you and for your family. Yeah. Not just you here. And there was kind of all that behind the scenes stuff. But actually when you were sat here, I can imagine now with hindsight, it's a wonderful thing. the pressure was probably really mounting for you yeah for ama yeah behind the scenes so if we were to like if we were to rewind back to that day and you and i was to go and get a glass of wine and we wasn't necessarily in this environment and you were kind of doing what you had to do because you're you're steering that ship girl and you are you know you're wearing many hats and one of those hats is to make sure people know about plant made and be front and center so if I was to say like at that time in March 2025 how are you what are you juggling at the minute what would your answer have been oh gosh like it was chaos honestly um it was crunch time at that time I think I'd just finished some um live pitches so I was still raising but that would have been about nine months of being out to market nine or ten months of being out to market trying to get funding um with that time of course like you still have to run the business i was like jumping on tiktok lives i was doing everything that i needed to do to get revenues up and also try and maintain the relationships i needed to maintain to try and see if i can get some money over the line um some commitments kind of fell through there were some people that was like yep we're gonna do it and then fell through um so march was really like really hard because i'm also i was in the process of like getting married as well so i was like trying on wedding dresses i was like trying on wedding dresses running between meetings trying to talk about numbers and everything whilst also making sure that the team's good and management is good but also like still putting on a brave face it was really difficult time like honestly I actually don't know how I did it but at the end of the day like pressure builds diamonds and I think all all of us founders are kind of insane because I like the regular person the regular person I don't think can have that much pressure on at one time and still look normal and not look like their problems I definitely didn't look like my problems honestly you were really wearing them well and I can but that's what that's why I wanted to start there and ask that because I think you know this is a space for women and as women we do that to a toxic level you know like you say and I can only imagine the kind of scaling costs the kind of the debt that's happening the end of strain trying to get money over the line trying to have a personal life and be happy in that moment when you've got a lot of strain over one side and I know that as a partnership you kind of do that together so it must be really hard to switch off and have a conversation about a wedding venue when you're like okay shit's gonna really hit the fan exactly yeah um let's really sort of break down so i think i've got here on on the 9th of june yeah and administrators were appointed yeah that was literally a couple of weeks after episode come out yeah so i just kind of want to just show that kind of like real light and shade in the like plates you were spinning and the person that you were kind of needing to be wanting to be but having to be on that same day so june the 9th um a new company was incorporated and shortly after plant made assets were sold via a pre-pack yeah for 30 000 pounds yeah when you look back at that moment administration became real what did that feel like for you emotionally gosh i so funny um we were all together the entire team including the new the new owner right and he was celebrating and we weren't and that wasn't a case of like that's giving me chills that wasn't a it wasn't i don't think we knew we would feel that way um but we were like gosh we just looked at each other and he was like oh like why aren't you celebrating i'm just like well this is the end right and like that's the end of that chapter and this is a new chapter but we are founders we're business people so we just kept on going so there was no like stop we didn't kind of want to stop we kind of just wanted like okay cool but we still have things to do here yes because we had a commitment we were still in our roles so we're like and the mission this is not even like this is not like cool this is a change and this is that but the business is still here even if it's in a new entity we still need to run it so we still had so many like i guess eyes to dot and tease we had so many yeah that is that is like the comparison of the the celebration and then not feeling like a win for you no but not knowing that it wasn't a win but the reason why it didn't feel like a win is because this wasn't about what i wanted yeah i did what was best for everyone involved um so i did the administration because we had so many tools right i could have liquidated done done this quietly and could have went about my business but that means every team member would have lost their jobs no creditors would have been settled everyone would have walked away basically tarnished and i would have just maybe what protected my ego this was an um an arrangement a partnership that was supposed to go through in order for everyone to be happy that didn't necessarily include me but it was good enough i was like okay cool i i feel like ethically i've done my part because usually people don't get what they're owed like as they say business is business i don't believe that actually no that wouldn't sit right morally yeah of course like there's institutions and stuff that aren't necessarily people but they're still people in business so and i'm a people person so i'm going to do right by people as much as i can yeah you know yeah but i think that i think that's something when it comes to you that's that really shines yeah i see that i get that i i trust your intentions and your motives this is obviously kind of like the final straw you know when getting to that point at what point did you realize that the company was i suppose financial financially cornered so um it was back in 2023 actually right because we can we can talk about the debt that's not a problem when when you are a bootstrap business you have very small margin of error especially if you start with 100 pounds like i did and you're just reinvesting reinvesting reinvesting so every time you kind of take a risk or you do an experiment things are going well that is a sunk cost you can't get back yeah and there's not necessarily a top-up available Well, that affects the cash flow like nothing else.

9:32Exactly, right? And of course, we know that we're going to trial things in business. So some marketing strategies, some product launches, we're going to trial some things and things aren't going to go away. But it's like, again, that safety net is what if you don't have that much cash, external cash kind of pumping into the business. And that's not even investment. That's me. Like, if I don't have much cash, then really is like the wheels are turning because this is all we have. Like we only have momentum because of the start. Right. So what you do in business is you try and create some leverage.

10:08And you're looking at the likes of like the Gymsharks and their negative cash conversion cycle. You're looking at how they've created such a great financial operation that they get money before they even have to pay back their suppliers. But we are manufacturing business as well. So we're two entities, basically. We're not just the econ brand. We're also manufacturing business. And the way you operate that is quite interesting because we had to purchase raw materials that will sit there. So you've got money you're looking at, but you can't turn into actual value. Then you actually have to pay people to manufacture the products, then the finished goods, then you have to sell.

10:43That time frame, you still have to be alive as a business. You still have to be alive. So we had a credit line to basically help, again, our financial operations, which defaulted on us because they had issues in their business and their risk gap has changed. so we had two credit lines basically default on us immediately which meant they'd paid themselves back so that they could like basically um cover their backs reduce as much risk as they could have but the business what do we do here because we had an agreement we knew what we were doing so we'd based our projections our strategies everything on cash we we were supposed to have that we now don't exist yeah so what do you do you know what i mean so that was really when things like we had that unexpected event or several unexpected events we also had a robbery that year and we had a lot of things in 2023 and that was the craziest thing because that was also our biggest year which is the hardest thing because like you say if they're kind of the cash flow the finances that whole piece just isn't making sense but equally the sales and the demand and the brand is making perfect sense in fact it's making the best sense it's ever made for you as a founder it's very hard to sort of sit back and go okay this isn't working because no no it really is people they understand in this people are yeah are buying what we're selling yeah And I think the craziest thing about it is that, so again, people might think, oh, like who was advising you?

12:23Well, some of the best in the game. Like we had the ex-COO of AG1, Athletic Greens, part of our mentorship. I had other people that had exited. They were in America though. Okay. So in America, you have different financial tools and things that you can lever and this kind of business can work there. and it's not to say it can't work here but again you just need so much more cash way more cash and I think in the middle of operating the business I didn't realize how much cash we would need right right I didn't know how much we'd need because beauty is very cash intensive and when you actually start to look at the brands that you know and love you realize that they've got millions in injection and that's not to say every single brand can't be bootstrapped but we're also manufacturing that was the piece that was like wait a minute we might but but that was again hindsight because me in the beginning was just I needed to do this so that we can get off the ground I didn't have thousands that was also your passion too yeah I didn't have thousands to do an MOQ I didn't have a minimum order quantity amount I didn't have 12 ,000 pounds to start this business I had 100 so that recycling was just to get off the ground but it was very hard to transition from you know manufacturing in-house to out of house because whenever we'd even trial anybody number one we still knew the MOQs were there but also they weren't not even making the products right yeah and I think that is so when you like you say when you everything's in-house and the control and the you know this has literally started with you making products in your mum's kitchen like and and for that to kind of roll out and be to the standard that you're expecting or be right or be you know that's a you know i've got a toiletry business and i know the revisions and the samples and the and also we have we made our first order to be transparent we made our first ever order based on the re the strength of what the retailer was forecasting so you know boots come to us and said we're in and this is what we knew that we could do but actually the risk of course if they've turned around said okay now it's not happening yeah exactly yeah but they committed to a certain volume yeah and it was kind of on them to forecast it and then we placed our order with our supplier based on what they were going to sell yeah so we kind of they absorbed that risk for us so then that that sort of led us to be able to build exactly but when everything's sat on you yeah i can only imagine and like you say you're not dealing with these moqs which is you know we're talking acronyms but if you're listening you don't know that means it's a minimum order quantity and that means that obviously the more that you order yes the less each product is made for so it makes sense to of course order a big volume but that takes cash and as a startup it's near on impossible to do yeah i i want to talk about kind of scaling pressure and why we're sort of touching on uh the debt here on paper the products were profitable as we said like yeah um but the wider business i suppose and you can sort of deep dive into how that looks but the wider business had accumulated over 1.8 million in liabilities yeah yeah and i think i suppose to me it looks like a classic scale trap you know revenue growing but costs and debts as you touched on before kind of growing faster would you say like you say 2023 is your is your on paper your best year but also your we're still profitable that year exactly that but also the the time that it dawned on you that there could be a problem here yeah when did you first sort of realize how deep the problem was as in like like you say it's hard to believe it when of course you know the cash flow etc there's a struggle and you've been let down in certain ways with you know the structure that you've had in place but the business is still profitable so when did it actually dawn on you that okay this is a problem that's kind of the problem has scaled far beyond what i what i'd imagine yeah suppose like those lenders basically like defaulting on us right um then we had to make quick decisions because how are we now going to fund this business because they've literally taken cash out the bank revenue we'd made on shopify did not come in because they took it so we needed money so you now go to short-term lending which is then another headache or another triumph depending on which lender it is um but they're very aggressive so they're looking for every week or every month a certain amount promised to them and you could almost find yourself in a place where you've just taken the money just to pay them back yeah yeah yeah for sure because of how aggressive that payback period is now of course when you raise equity you don't have to pay that back immediately so that time you have that time and space to reinvest those funds into what's supposed to be what you're supposed to be doing which is growing the revenues not even just growing the revenues growing the top line and of course protecting the bottom line but if you are trying to balance a high pressure situation where you have to pay these people back you're picking who's getting paid everyone's getting paid at that point but then you're not left with much you're just like well what's going on here yes it was just becoming like really really crazy and we did scale things back but it's like again an unfortunate situation happened that was out of our control and we had to make a quick decision because things could have kind of actually gotten worse to be fair and did those decisions feel super gun to head i'd imagine absolutely yeah and how and how it's almost how do we take advice we've got mentors we've got people that we can speak to but actually ultimately i need to make a decision because this needs paying and everyone you know that's where the kind of responsibility of being a leader and being a founder and knowing that you're looking after a team and a community and customers that you want to make sure that their orders are fulfilled in the right way and so on and so forth it's there's no wiggle room yeah well they say fail fast don't they but like pivot and let's go let's go to the next thing right exactly if you was to sort of look back do you think that you perhaps because there was a big when i look at your journey there was this the scale was is what i think you know the way that it started the starting with 100 pounds in my mom's kitchen the way that the business scaled was so impressive and so so incredible do if you was to look back at it do you think that you scaled too quickly was that important at the time in order to compete we we weren't pushing that hard if i'm being that's so interesting if i'm being honest because we had never even put a dime into advertising until the end of 2022 so everything was organic yeah everything was organic um of course like we'd spent on other other channels like we'd done influencer marketing things like that but like the amount of money that you hear some brands spend on on marketing one mil two mil three mil on just meta ads like we weren't even there yet right so we were just like the one year we wanted to scale the one year all of this happened like that was really what it was and it's like you can't guess that timing because the thing is everything's changing all the time but we also had something that was happening too because again we were manufacturers we had our ingredients doubling in price we had one of our main ingredients literally 50 more expensive wow so we are literally managing your margins of now and it's like what so you want me to change the formula what do you want me to do do you want me to hack the prices up then if i hack the prices up how's the customer going to respond to that because already everyone was hiking their prices up and also the formula is the thing that is is that is the what we're nailing exactly there is the thing that people love the stuff works exactly So how do you manage customer expectations, market changes, all of these things alongside, yeah, people you thought you could depend on that basically failed you?

20:56You know, and I see this and I understand that things happen, but I just think, gosh, as a founder myself, the fires that you're trying to constantly put out, it's like you're firefighting every day. And that's hard to breathe. Like, that's heavy. Yeah, and I think the reason why the pressure was even more, I guess, amountable is because we were all doing this for the first time. Yes. Uh-huh. So if every team member is doing this for the first time, how is the management team going to feel? How is the founder going to feel? Because it's like, oh, you are carrying everyone, everything, everything, which you're not supposed to.

21:40You're supposed to rely. You're supposed to rely. And that doesn't mean I didn't rely on my team. Of course, I relied on my team. But again, they were also doing this for the first time. So the expectation couldn't be like, oh, you're going to grow like five, six, seven times faster than me. Now, I know I'm the one that's going to be the one that's going to grow really fast. And actually, that's one of my skill sets, even. The fact that I can pivot, learn so quickly, get into uncomfortable situations and try and figure it out. I mean, I learned how to pitch the business in a month. and I was already underway speaking to investors doing pitch nights doing back-to-back calls going into PE firms and VC firms I was doing all of that and I'd never done that before but again you're built in a way that allows you to build something like this and then other people are there to support you based on their skill sets but that's not their skill set so I so again if I'm looking back I'm like there was too much on me because how how was I supposed to do everything how yeah i can't do that again i i really need to rely on um expertise um people who've been in the trenches before again it's also the startup environment not everyone's for that yeah not ever can do that again it's a quick decisions quick this and again the management the management team had been in those environments before but again that means we are the ones really feeling everything on our own really and also it's so hard and i say this constantly it's so hard to separate emotion from business and when you have built something and you've built the team and not only the business but the the team behind it and that scaled and they have sort of grown with you it's so hard to and you know a lot of people better this i'm getting better at this but switching that emotion off when it comes to business and particularly i think predominantly i mean no one really cares about the emotion in business when it's all great oh my god i'm crying because we had amazing sales this is a great day that's fine no one cares about that no one tells you to switch it off then it's when for want of a better phrase shit hits the fan yeah we're supposed to you kind of lead with grace and resilience and everything else in between and not let emotions affect our decision well that's really hard yeah when you are built a certain way Exactly.

23:58So, of course, there were some team members that we had to switch out. There were others that were really here for the ride and we did our best. So there's that, you know. And again, from going forward, it's like, even now I'm like, OK, who would I build with again? Not because they're good or bad, but because they're probably going to have the same kind of characteristics I do in a different field because we need to lean on different expertise. but that kind of like under pressure I can actually make this work like I didn't even know I was that good at pivoting very quickly and learning so quickly until you had to so now I'm like oh I'm actually quite comfortable like nothing is going to shock me or scare me now that I've seen a complete life cycle of business like nothing can scare me now because the one thing I think all people fear is what if this goes left I've been there now so I'm like okay cool it's not even that bad and today this is a walk in the park I mean today yes four months after yeah but you time will get you there and it almost becomes and I've said this before because we had a real trademarking scenario that really yeah yeah yeah exactly like and I know you've had that too you've had that too but that now to me becomes a leveller yeah anything happens you're just like guys we made it through this we're making it through this exactly off we go exactly and that kind of makes you pull your socks up and march a little harder.

25:27I want to talk about the restructure plan. Yes. Because pre-packs out means that assets move, the legal ownership transfers. Yes. So after that, a founder technically has no inherent rights in the new company unless they're formally granted. Yes. That is the official line. Yes. So when you agreed to the restructure itself, what did you believe that i suppose that you were being promised personally equity right so i was supposed to have equity into the business um so was the other team members the management team specifically um also anyone could earn um equity depending on well there was some specifics around like product development and things like that which a lot of that is quite normal which is yeah Yeah, so there's like earn ups and stuff.

26:22So also that meant our roles were also supposed to continue. And we'll get into all of this. In the restructure, you were promised equity. And how did your or would your role look then? So as you move forward and it's obviously, it's in different hands, but like you say, you're still there. The mission's still the same. What then is your role technically? It was kind of the same, to be honest. Again, I'm a high growth person. So figuring out the growth plan, but also managing different budgets now. It's supposed to be injections of cash. Okay, now we have cash. Great. The thing we always like financing was really the thing that was the problem the whole time.

27:07So now we have non-pressured financing. How do we deploy that? How do we do it smartly? Because when you've done the thing, good and bad, you now know what to do. what it needs to do yeah so yeah it's like oh perfect situation back in the same fantastic business model we just have you know all the learnings to to leverage here and so that was basically me creating that plan to do so so high growth product development all the good things as well as still managing the team making sure we're all working in line with everything that we've done we know exactly what to do what not to do and and more sophistication it wasn't just when I think about like our marketing plans, something fickle is like an offer, a sale, all of that stuff.

27:53Let's really get to the nitty gritties, which is something that we, something that I was transitioning into as we transitioned out of a marketing agency and we brought marketing in-house. All of these like, okay, we have this margin that we can't go above or below this margin, boom. Like every offer needs to be very succinct. We need to know the amount of profit we're getting out. everything needs to really be profit engineered exactly we learn all of that so there's nothing to learn here there's nothing to be taught here but that wasn't even the point the point wasn't to go into this new business and to be taught because this new new owner had never ran a consumer business before or your business oh my oh yeah exactly or this business model so we knew this business one and it was not the same as everything else and and that that's the interesting thing about business because once you get in it you realize you can't talk on much on other businesses or verticals because everyone's actually doing very different things specific to their niche moqs or or even like skew sizes for fashion i just look at that looks like a nightmare oh my gosh but they look at me you had like you had mint and peppermint and and all of these things flying around like what on earth were you doing and i'm like i picked my crazy and new pictures yeah for real for real and and and even in the two of us yes product-based businesses ours look completely very different everybody's and i think because everyone's start is so different and everything's relative so it's how you've built it's how you've grown it's how i don't know we do it like this because it's what works and yeah you know this is what is great for our bottom line it it really is it's like having a baby when everyone says this is how you put a baby to sleep i'm like Actually, yours is different.

29:34I'm never going to sleep like that. Yeah. Was there any point where you kind of believed that maybe your ownership was being preserved in some form? Yes. That's a very sort of sophisticated way of saying that. I don't quite know why. Right. Because, again, we'd already handed over everything, right? Like, as in the assets of the business. Not the assets of the business being handed over, but, like, the administration has happened. So ownership has already been transferred. so like i don't really have anything there's no reason for me not to honor my part do you know what i mean yes we're in like we're in now okay cool and i'm personally if i'm agreeing to something and i'm agreeing to something again i did this for multiple reasons not just myself making sure that lenders were settled make sure creditors were settled making sure the team was good that that was the plan and also let's just grow this thing like let's get back to feeling like we're building something again because that's what we want to feel like we want to feel like we're doing something this bit isn't like this isn't where you can be creative this is kind of we've got to put this fire out before we can then grow yeah and then that stops everything when you're dealing with something that is so impactful in your business you can't be creative you can't think about what's next what's new you've got to deal with the problem that we're trying to solve here you just wanted to get back to that space yes again i didn't care I didn't own it anymore I didn't care I owned part I was supposed to own part but I didn't that was the point but was that a long road for you to get to that point where you don't care that you don't own it anymore is that something I mean that's like an ego death thing right is that sort of part of you that you had to grieve a little absolutely because it was again I just want to preface and say like it's not the point of owning it it's a point of just things are changing like things this was just a big change and this wasn't the plan and it's fine it's still here so let's like it was it was not so much i think the grieving really happened when i was gone right that's what that's what happened but it wasn't it wasn't much like there wasn't really many tears because i suppose you're still in it and it's a different partnership now but it's still and it was made and it's still what you know and love and as i said earlier your mission doesn't change no your mission for the brand and how that looks to the community and yeah what you've built that doesn't change it's kind of there's a restructure that's behind the scenes that you know on paper looks different now i suppose i suppose that's how if you're still part of it that's how you must look at it until you're then not yeah yeah so june the 9th last year administrators were appointed the assets were sold on the same day for 30 000 pounds the company itself remained in administration but the brand ip goodwill stock everything customers recognized as plant made yeah yeah yeah moved who made the decision to appoint the administrators and were they always the right fit as in was that like that's a good question actually no carry on no i'm now just like sort of digressing a little bit i'm thinking like it's it's not necessarily a structure that you would ever plan or hope for yeah but it also the person has to be right yeah so who who made that decision so i don't know if i clarified actually earlier but um we so i met the new owner back in 2024 um september of 2024 um and we were trying to figure out an arrangement um so october 2024 to december 2024 trying to figure out okay cool come in as a team member you can raise and then we're still doing our thing and then we're now figuring out like governance and like a board and all of these things but then again the debt on the balance sheet was just looking a bit up And that's again, how do you make sure all parties are actually accounted for, respected, settled?

33:43Right. So the new owner was like advising us and saying, okay, is either basically liquidate or we restructure. We did the pros and the cons. We're looking at it. And we were like, do you know what? Okay, fine. Let's make sure again, everyone's good. So that process was kind of manned by him. I was also in that process as well. And the crazy thing about this process, which might be interesting to founders... Sorry, can I just cut you just one second? No, absolutely. So really, you intended to work with the New Yorker. Yeah, this was a partnership. Way prior to this happening. Yes. Which is, I suppose, why this whole thing, and these are my words, not yours, but it must land a little bit sore because of the partnership and the kind of future that you'd perhaps plan together.

34:38We had a relationship. This person was going to come to my wedding. And I find it so, so interesting that you don't even name him now. There's no need to. They made their position clear, so I'm going to do the same. Yeah. So continue, as you were, I cut you. No, it's fine. The interesting thing about an administration is that everything you've done in a business gets pulled together all the history the financial history but also how you conducted yourself as a director so like if you did like if i pulled out loads of money and like i could really be in the in the pen right now like if i did not orchestrate so when like we say i was starting businesses and stuff everyone's like oh yeah company's house 12 pounds but but actually you have a duty of care you have a duty of care to actually operate properly and do whatever it takes for this business not only to survive but everyone involved again creditors staff members everyone everything is analyzed i literally filled pages and pages and pages of events had to corroborate those events everything which was like a really interesting like i was like oh i didn't really know the end looks like this this is interesting but i'm glad i did everything right like i paid people out of my own pocket when you know cash flow and i'm sure every founder at a point girl there's not been one person i'm sure there was a bit of a with a payroll but again we will make it work and we did make it work you know and our team didn't even feel anything like we did everything to the point where to protect 20 25 is even when the staff started to feel something you know so like we did everything and yeah it was it was it was a lot to live like on scraps for like years and because you're right people like you know people assume and you know run away with narratives that oh but i bet she was having a lovely life and doing this and doing that but but nope yeah but also not not really realizing that like you say it's yeah there is a level there's a duty of care when it comes to administration and that you have to be upholding your responsibility as a director so on and so forth were there ever any other buyers considered when it came to the sale yes there were that's interesting it was it went public which was a bit interesting to me because again i know where my head was at my head was hot okay i couldn't even really like focus like i was kind of in but i was kind of like out because we still had to like figure out like okay with this new entity what does this look like also whilst filling out piles and piles of paperwork then that yeah there were people interested there were i mean they were across a bunch of different industries like pharmaceutical like very high structural like probably don't know what it would have looked like if those the assets were sold to them but like yeah we were on the market but again because we had our partnership i signed ahead of terms we made sure that we could steer it this way and i suppose there at the time would have been a safety in in the buyer looking in the way that it did because of the relationship you have and the promises that you'd built and the understanding that then he had of the team and the operations and how the business is run and then you still being a real kind of front and center part of that yeah right so there's a safety and it's like the classic saying is you know sometimes it's the better the devil you know than the devil you don't sure right and i think it's which is kind of i suppose ironic in this scenario but i suppose that would be your feeling at the time like why are we going to entertain that when we can do it here yeah yeah was that how you felt that's literally what happened yeah so yeah so the sort of four months after is kind of what i really want to talk about so after the sale you and the founded team this is reportedly so you correct me if i'm wrong continued yep we did operate in the business day-to-day for several months yeah several yeah after the actual sale and the restructure yes um but i from my understanding during that time you felt like service contracts equity allocations structures weren't finalized no right okay so this is where for me it becomes a little bit tricky yeah as to you've you've agreed on this sale this is how you think the business is moving forward things aren't being finalized which to me i would assume it's very much like a house sale and you know when you've exchanged and the sales complete you get the keys and that is it you're in and now you own this so for me for there to be sort of situations or things that are a bit iffy and not watertight would raise alarm bells yeah for me yeah um so then after this the communication breaks down allegations were raised and then eventually you were removed can Can you break this down for me in a timeline from your perspective?

40:03Because obviously I'm piecing it together with facts that we have, but I just really want to hear for you because this, this to me is where it sounds like a founder's worst nightmare. Yes. It does. Yeah. Yeah. Again, we, we had a duty of care to our customers and to the staff really and truly. so I didn't I didn't understand what was going on so I still I was still participating in good faith we all were because that day we had a relationship with this person for many many months like almost a year prior to the administration happening so we're acting on our part and then some weeks can't contact okay can contact now saying that okay season of raising so So I'm just kind of going to lock in.

40:52But the thing is because now this is in your hands and also because shares weren't necessarily distributed, then there's things that couldn't be done. So even like the first week that we actually relaunched, of course, customers don't know this, but I know they could feel it. When we relaunched back in July, because I was like, we are not doing this again. Like we're not just going to do this to just go back into operating how we were. What was the point then? We should have just continued, which we could have. Again, we could have. This was not a pressurized situation where this was their last resort.

41:23No, actually, this was very well calculated. We thought, again, everyone would be settled, right? So when we relaunched, we couldn't get a hold of the new owner for like five or six days. But like even as this was like an ID put into Shopify to translate sales, that wasn't done. But they were called multiple times. And I'm like, why is this happening? So I literally stopped the sale. I was like, okay, well, this is it. Mind you, we made like 80 grand, which is hilarious because we know what we're doing. But it's like, okay, we like, please do what you need to do. Like we need to do what we need to do.

42:01And that was what the four months felt like. And at that time, so this is like in the first instance, like, you know, you'll relaunch a month after and you can't get hold of the now owner for five, six days. did you instantly have that gut feeling that sometimes we get as females that you think something's not right here or did that was that still to come it was there but at the end of the day i'm like come on like surely surely surely please like it's already enough like yeah we've done everything we needed to do like let's just build this thing it's just kind of just like let's just do the thing we need to do like we all made a promise we all made it's not even a promise or what i'd hope i've i've signed a contract yes you know what i mean but then how would that work then and this is i mean you if i'm asking if i'm digging into this too much you tell me but how would that then work if you have signed a contract and an administration right is that what you're saying no no what what my point is is the things that weren't i suppose there are things that ultimately weren't promised that were supposed to happen that didn't ever get finalized the structures you know they it didn't happen during that time the equity um allocations etc if there was a contract how did how did that time go by without those things happening if there was a contract in place to protect you parties and both parties both parties yeah didn't they like they had a whole bunch of getting contracts together to protect yeah exactly so it's a dual yeah it wasn't just about me but how but then but from your standpoint and i should all what i should also be conscious that i'm just talking to you and i would always do that because always two sides of every story but I am talking to you and you are my girl so um how do your things that are supposed to be deliverables for you for sure yeah how do they then not happen and how how is that not a conflict of a contract I don't know I don't know like I'm not that's what I this is the bit that I struggle with because if something if I'm just think I'm putting this in layman's terms and putting it in a way that I can sort of digest it.

44:24If I'm in contract with somebody and they're not delivering on a deliverable, that we have both signed a contract to protect both of us because that's what they're for, but they are now in conflict of that contract because they aren't delivering, then we have a bit of a legal matter on our hands here. Yes. Right. Yes. Okay. Good. I just need some clarification in that because that's where my brain, like it then i just then think well how are you protected but i suppose then that's your feeling like i we've done this to protect one another but i am not being protected yes and and i think that's i think the myself and the management team definitely felt that way um again if you're going to do a hindsight you're going to have a lawyer an entire time throughout the process or maybe like even post restructure you're gonna have a lawyer there but this was a point where like we had no money and that's not that's not we had no money like we had nothing so we were just like well no one's gonna really maybe talk to us and that's probably if i have a regret that's a regret i just wish i protected myself the entire way through right and not having that legal support I mean, in a time like that, I suppose in hindsight, like that's when you kind of need it most.

45:47Absolutely. During those months were kind of any decisions made that required your approval that you kind of didn't have? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I don't think the new owner had worked in a team the way we had. And I think even us when when we first started. Right. because I had done Plant Made for about seven months before I even bought my husband. I was about to say fiance. Last time you were here, I was your fiance. Yeah, he was my fiance. Yeah, I had my husband in seven months in and then my brother was about 10 months in. We had to learn how to work together. So we had about three years, four years of already figuring out our dynamics, how we are, how our personalities shine, how we work together and how we even share ideas.

46:39and, you know, how we even talk about whether those ideas are good and bad. Like, we had all of those. We knew. And that doesn't mean we didn't step on each other's toes. We absolutely did. Oh, of course. However, we knew, like, it was all love at the end of the day. We were family. You got another dynamic and comes from a very different place. You know, different. So, like, you're... And that doesn't mean, like, it was bad. It was just very different. Yeah. So it was like, okay, cool. Like, we all need to stay in our lanes because if we don't, that's when things are difficult. That's when things become difficult.

47:11That's something I had to learn. Yeah. And that's going to dent anyone's ego. Yeah. Because it's like, then why am I here? And there was like times where, well, why am I here then? But also this is not the right decision. Remember, we've just done this. We've been here. It's so hard. So why would we, like, why are we going back? It's like that inner conflict that you must, and it's a bit of a push and pull scenario, isn't it? Where you're like, no, but I know this isn't okay. I'm also, that's not my place anymore. So you're trying to find your feet. You can't really, the communication's broken down between you and our owner.

47:45like I think August was probably the last time we properly spoke to the new owner. Right. And then we basically had three emails and then it was October and then we weren't there anymore. I mean, wild. Absolutely wild. And I think it's such a, it's such a shame that it played out in this way. It didn't need to be this way. Even if, do you know what? Because there wasn't like a board or anything like, we knew the investor who'd put money in. Like we also knew the investors who were going to put money in. I was asked to be on calls and I was asked to go to House of Investor to basically talk about the business.

48:25They wanted to hear my side because again, I've been here, done this with this business model. So they're like, okay, I'm curious to know how you think this is going to work out this time round with some funding, with some more, you know, people that have done things before in different sectors. What does it look like? I'd share my vision and, well, it makes sense. Like, again, this is a team. Like, this team is making sense now, right? So it didn't make sense why it needed to be this way. But even if it was like, we're not the best people to do this anymore. Okay, but let's just do that the right way.

48:58That just, like, I'm sure, why couldn't we have been respected enough to just have had things done the right way yeah and that's kind of that's a really that's a question that will probably always hang out yeah like you know the respect the respect that a founder should have in those moments to me is really really because because now our paths will always be together because i i unfortunately can't stop being the founder of the brand well it never I will never always be so it's like I'll pass across it it shouldn't we shouldn't it's you know what I mean people don't call it a baby for no reason it's the same it's like you know we can create a beautiful child but then we can part ways but we're always gonna be the parents you know and nothing will ever change that and it's exactly it's exactly the same thing when you kind when you're in that period of time like you say you think you last spoke to the owner in August at what point when it come to the day that you then parted ways with plant made was that your decision no okay so how can you tell me a little bit about how and I don't know if legally you're allowed to completely go into all of this so tell me if you can't but how was that a case of you being removed i mean i can't say their intentions so to say was i removed can't even say the business stolen stolen stolen the business was not stolen no one ever said that i didn't say that there's a lot of that narrative there's a lot of that i never said that in all my communications which has been very minimal i have not said that because that's not what happened which is sometimes what happens because then these narratives grow legs yeah and and I think sometimes when you aren't I suppose at that time you're busy trying to get yourself together yeah let alone make continuous statements when there's a new kind of narrative or a new room in that you can't keep addressing it because you're trying to you're busy trying to grieve this thing that's happening exactly yeah live your life yeah so so how can you just tell us how that looks because I think yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of worry online I think out of sheer love and protection for you yeah and the the community that you've built doesn't change yeah they're still gonna ride for you because of course they fell in love with the product because of you yeah and of course the product was incredible but you are you were a big part of that so I think there are a lot of people that are fighting battles that you perhaps haven't asked them to fight but there's a lot of kind of there's a real feeling online i i think there's a real feeling when it comes to this and like you say the the she had her business stolen off of her seems to be a real like a common thread here but i think someone actually said it i think it was like no when someone goes into partnership and that is not honored that could feel like that and i'm like okay but that's still not the right words like We should be very careful with the words here.

52:11But yeah, I got an email pertaining to the management team, which said some things which there's not been any evidence presented for. That was just straight. That was it. So saying things alluding to why you shouldn't be a part of the business anymore. Yeah. Which weren't anything to do with performance. Again, we were the reason why the thing was still running. Because of the mismatch of communication. And yeah, so that was really what happened. And it's funny because even the day that, well, when we got it, I was literally on my way to get my wedding certificate. So I was just like, this is a bit, it's a bit difficult personally with all of this happening.

53:00Like I had to, I don't really feel like I had a wedding season. I don't really feel like, like it happened and I know it happened. and I was really, I really tried to be present. That was also two weeks before, like, I got legally married, you know? So it was just like, I literally think about the time and it's just such a blur. Everything's such a blur. Like, I was supposed to be so happy and I'm like, why, why couldn't I just have that? Like, I'm sure I deserved that. Oh my gosh. Why, why couldn't I have had that? That, that's, that's shit. It is, it is. That is shit. And I think you're going through two big life events at one time yeah where everything must just yeah seem a blur but then equally maybe it was although that you probably wasn't as present as you would have liked to have been yeah maybe you just needed that to sort of catch your fall a little bit absolutely yeah just to give yourself a boost and something to look forward to i guess and obviously i announced it to the world which i can say the world because three million people saw my statement i was like whoa did i was like surely no one was like watching plama that much right like i didn't have that many followers i'm not i don't have millions of followers i was confused i was just like you know i just want to let my customers know that anything moving forward is happening here because they're still even messaging me today yeah but as i said it's testament to the community that you've built that you have built yeah yeah but equally amma i think there's a real there's a real feeling of if we're letting the internet talk and if we're letting the internet come up with their own conclusions as to what's happened here, ultimately the story is a young black woman has had her business taken off her and it doesn't sit right with anybody.

54:51So I think that, and maybe we're unpacking it today, but we haven't yet had a chance to. And I think there's been that real feeling in the community of, well, we can't sit. and stand back and let this happen and i do think that's perhaps why we're seeing the now owner featuring on podcasts or having interviews because i think that and listen rightly so everyone's got a right to reply yeah and it's you know and there'll be allegations that you said yourself that have been thrown his way like he stole it off of you etc that you're saying yourself isn't true so i suppose that he wants to sort of you know protect his name too which I do understand but I think there's that feeling of that was very noisy and and if that was the case and it played out in that way rightly so like that doesn't people had really invested in this business because of you yeah and I think that was very loud yeah and and that's fine and then I think we all need to move on with the fact that this is just no longer my vision which is sad and it's not because it's my vision i i just happened to have worked out what the market needed what people needed and it was based on my own issues it was based on my family's issues it was based on my friends issues you know so because of that i don't know what the vision is going to look like now but it's not in my hands and everyone everyone needs to be okay with that and was that your reason for i suppose when something happens like this and i suppose you decide in yourself like when am I going to tell everybody when feels right to make a statement when did it was it really apparent that you needed to let everybody know as soon as you could that you weren't kind of well that you weren't no longer a part of plant made and that you weren't steering that shit because I suppose when you are so attached personally yeah if something isn't running in the way that you would want it to or something isn't seen in the way that you want it to or decisions have been made or the product isn't quite what it is now you know if the business is in the hands of anyone they might not be manufacturing house they might have done the moq it might not be the brand that you have built and you know and love and was it quite sort of did it feel important for you to instantly kind of i say dissociate yourself because you're always going to be associated because it's the thing that you built but at the same time this isn't how I'm moving forward.

57:22Yeah. Again, because even now, people are still messaging me about problems and I'm like, sorry guys, like, did you not see the statement? I have to like swing that into the DMs. Like, guys, by the way, in November, I let you guys know, this is not me anymore. So sorry, I'm just not the person to speak to about this anymore. I'm just not. But I used to be. I just, I'm not anymore. That's it. And I think for me as well, I just need to move on. Like, okay. this part has been quite a heavy cloud I think when you've been part of something for so long and of course that's all you wanted to talk to people about yeah but now it's it's sort of taken a different vein hasn't it a different turn and this is your time I suppose yeah it's to move on and let people hear your side of the story I just want to know what your reaction is to this before we move on and we talk about what's next for you because i know you don't stop girl i can't even i dread to think what you've got up your sleeve because i know she's not sat there just not doing anything tony the now owner went on a podcast and he said these are his words we are these are tied to perfection from what he said he said for about two years on average plant made had been losing 50 000 pounds a month something in that region on average by the time it really come to the time where I had got brought in to help try and advise and help the business, the business was almost two million in the hole.

58:47And so then the negative equity of the business was almost negative two million. This is a business that belongs to the community. And that's actually why I cared to want to be involved in it. Eventually, you know, put the money up to make sure that, you know, ironically, it doesn't go into the hands of other communities that have made so much money off of our backs or some random private investment group that actually it falls into the hands of a young 27 year old black person from London. So that was why I was interested in the brand. The balance sheet works the way a balance sheet is. And with the amount of debt in the business, the debt, the business was not only technically worthless from a financial standpoint, it was negative 2 million.

59:26So whoever was coming into the business was taking on liabilities. Directly to answer your question, did I steal plant made? There wasn't a business to steal from a perspective because the business was in minus in value. The business had about 40 different lenders and people that it was owing money to. And by law, your creditors can, if you default on payments, close you down. So it was going to be closed down and be zero and never exist again. And what we tried to do was create a structure that would allow us to keep it alive, recapitalise it and keep the products alive. So did I steal it? No.

1:00:05actually other people that were owed money were going to shut it down it was a negative value and what we did was rescue 15 people's jobs a brand that people loved provided the funding for a thousand people who were owed orders months back that they hadn't received to get their product and kept a brand alive that we all love in the community is there no reaction okay I mean if it's worthless then why did you buy it you can't buy something that isn't worthless and you aren't the only one so

1:00:45it's it feels it must just feel so hard to watch those interviews having not spoken to him and then it's it's such a it's such a strong narrative from him when you hear it like that it's quite stark yeah also a brand that hasn't raised equity can't lose 50k in debt every month i think that was a way to illustrate the debt amount the debt amount the debt amount and that's with all the interest owed at that time that's actually not what it was when we were still trading even before um the administration we were actually working with our creditors we could have traded out of this which is very interesting yeah and this is exactly why it's time for you to tell yeah and also he wasn't brought to advise he was brought to raise why would we bring someone who hasn't done this before to advise us we had advisors so i'm glad i i've had the opportunity need to speak on on the facts really and just share the story because this is the founder's story you know and no one can ever take that away from you and I think in order for you to move on personally for questions to stop being asked for people to assume and charge forward with that story I think you you have to sit down and tell your side of the story and I think it it feels right yeah yeah again didn't have to be this way it did I was fine yeah I'll do my thing um As I still am doing my thing and will continue to build businesses as always.

1:02:16Because it's my blood. Because that's what you do and that's what lights you up. So let's just talk about, Plant Made is very much now in your past. Yes. And let's move in that vein because you've started something incredibly successful. You've proven to yourself what you can do. Yeah. It being your first time on the job. You know, this was learning on the job like most of us are. and you built something incredible for a community that needed it. And that story speaks for itself. But it's a chapter that's closed. And I suppose you feel like you're very much on to the next. What now lights you up and how, whilst leaving that behind and acknowledging the success and the lessons, because I'm not going to call them failures, the lessons.

1:03:02And, you know, it's taught you how to build the next thing. Yes, exactly. Because that's what that does. Exactly. what what lights you up now and what are you looking forward to so much i know i feel like this is such a nice question i mean number one i'm always someone that like rights the wrongs of my past right right so i remember when i got fired from my job and started plant made um i knew how i wanted to treat my team because of how i felt treated in my old job yeah right now i know it's like to really go for you know with still good numbers at the time when I was out to market to raise um back in 2024 how difficult that was and we all know the stats you know two percent of funding goes to women 0.5 goes to black women I'm like okay there's a funding gap but also there's a resource gap and this is not about black women this is just about minorities about people that just aren't given a chance what does that look like for my future oh I can't wait to have founders never experienced that struggle of resource again um i'm also like what else is wrong with me so i can start a business in that because like i had hair loss and i built a business of that so like what else is wrong with me and i'm trying to figure out my own issue because clearly it's a strategy that's working so i might as well run it up i might as well like run it back so i'm like tinkering around with a few different verticals but oh i love health beauty wellness love that space so much so i will probably be building in that next time but it's not now i need to kind of i need a woosah yeah i need a woosah i need to take a uh you know i need to get on that honeymoon exactly which i have not done we need you okay do you know what and it is it's just like it's been so on top for you yeah but like i said like it's not you know it say within a few weeks it will be a year since you sat here and you think about everything everything that's happened that is a lot lives exactly that i mean listen they say cat's got nine i feel like as we've seen 15 for you i'm so pleased to hear you say that that you need to have a holiday and that you need to before you kind of get your teeth stuck into the next thing you need to look after yourself and you need to kind of whilst moving on acknowledge what you went through and how your life has changed and you know just sort of finding yourself and it sounds a bit woo woo it was a bit of an identity shift I was like whoa I remember talking to Jo Malone on the podcast and when she sold Jo Malone on DIMM she carried on working there for a while and then she lost her sense of smell which obviously for her is super impactful because of her cancer treatment.

1:05:53So she lost her sense of smell, but she was still staying, heading up that team because that's what, you know, that's her skillset. That's her passion. And she said, okay, I'm going to step down because she didn't really want to admit it, but she'd lost her sense of smell. And she then left Jo Malo, London. And typically as she left, her sense of smell came back. Classic. These things always do work out that way. she's then obviously gone on to build joe loves which is but she said for that period of time because obviously there's a non-compete for a while so she couldn't set up joe loves for however they give you five years or however that looks yeah um when she sold that she just said that her identity she loves what she does so much and i really recognize that that it felt like a whole like who who am i yeah this is a whole sort of identity identity crisis you know a little bit so i think to find yourself and align yourself a little bit again with what you like not sort of thinking for a business or thinking because of the business like enjoy this space for a second to exactly do you and then the next thing that you love will fall on your lap because you've taken in time that's the plan um yeah I definitely was like oh okay because people are still like associate like still to this day I'll still like CEO my guys like just right now just let's just pack it a little bit because that's not me and you know I've like been posting content about like me just like now you know doing the creator thing and I was always that anyway yes doing that anyway and now you know I'm exploring what the opportunities are in the career economy and I'm like super excited about that and people are still like can't wait to see what's next and I'm like I can't rush this next business like no again this we're talking five years five and a half years almost six years and like yeah it's gonna take some time guys you know but people do that in life yeah you get engaged everyone goes when are you gonna get married on your wedding day they ask you when you're having a baby yeah it's true whilst you've got a margarita in your hand I remember being in the hospital having my baby and I'm going when's the next one I think you have a brother and sister people are so desperate it's like we can't we need to be here and I think it's actually really strange it's been a lot of conversation um I was literally at um with Trini London um the other day and Trini Woodhull was was just talking about the past and and the future and how so many people are stuck in these in in these entities that aren't now yes and i've had to really sit with the now and the now again four months after because i'm not going to say immediately immediately you know immediately i was like whoa what's going on here what do i do i don't know what to do so i just spoke to all my founder friends i was just like guys what do i do i don't know and it's grieving that yeah it's very much like a death yeah it's because it's life as you know it right and it's like yeah when a relationship's over and you know yes relating it to something a little more simple like that it's just that same feeling of what to what is my purpose yeah what and it is really important that you find that and you be in the now and what lights you up right here and now and that might be being at home and just taking a minute and being still or it might be unfortunately I'm not still no I know I can't imagine you are but you know and however that looks for you is really really important if you had a piece of advice to a founder listening to this right now and has perhaps been in a similar situation or knows that they're about to embark on something similar.

1:09:36For, I mean, for the business, it's so relative. And without you knowing how that looks very hard for you to advise. But what advice would you give to the person listening to this? To the person that says, okay, I think I'm in for a really wild ride ahead. What would that advice be? you are the most important thing in this entire equation right um and and again for me to have even said okay this is what's best for everyone i can't even say that's the right choice for everyone right right to go through the administration i don't i can't say i even when i give business advice or life advice i can't say this is the right thing to do um because everything is relative but what is most important is do not it's dramatic but do not die for anything like don't don't portray yourself don't portray your morals your character your values what you stand for don't and that's one thing I can say I never did I never did that that's so special because you are important and I think there's a there's a there's a kind of rhetoric around founders being like sacrificial lambs and we have to do everything and everything's about everyone else we also have to be very clear that it can get real toxic and you can you can negate like you can forget yourself you can you can do things for everyone else but yourself and that's only at your detriment and when you go home you're gonna have to deal with a mess of that yeah because you didn't respect your boundary didn't respect it all the all those things so i think within this process has really taught me like I am still important as much as my duty to everyone I still need to take care of me and this is why we're talking about wellness and you know everyone's taking a breather and taking a holiday and maybe not working on holiday and because hello we're still human and life is passing by whether we like or not and I don't want to be 50 and look back and I was like oh I don't really do anything for myself because you were doing it for that thing I think also it's and this is one thing that Dior um she was there wasn't she she has been really really kind of like centering that in yeah she's she I think she's so I mean she's so brilliant anyway and and any listener to the podcast will know what I think of Dior and how much I love her she is my life coach one thing that she says to me whenever I feel a little bit in that vein is that she says that you're the common thread yeah so like this thing my little cocoa didn't just work because of a you know because of some kind of unicorn move like it works because it's yours and but at the same time we have to be able to separate separate ourselves from those things absolutely equally like you'll start something again and of course it'll work because you're involved so i think we also sometimes we talk about these things or these business like oh maybe that was a fluke and maybe i managed to build that because it was it's your competence it's you and you have to protect that but equally when that thing doesn't work out it wasn't you it was the thing yeah do you know what i mean so it's almost hypocritical that as a statement it's true but it's so true and it's being able to sort of trust yourself and know that enough to know that i will do this again yeah and i will do it better because now I know what I know.

1:13:10But equally, that doesn't define me and that situation doesn't define me. And this is the beautiful thing about this conversation because I don't want anyone to look at what's happened to me and be like, I'm not even going to try. I cannot, I will never stand for anyone being bullied out of building a business. Because I didn't think this is, we know this is a game. We know we're in a game and we know sometimes we lose and sometimes we win. And that we micro lose and we micro win throughout the whole journey as well. Right. But I will not stand for it. And that's why in my statement, I said, like, this was I paid the cost of embarrassment.

1:13:50I paid it with this whole journey. But no, I'm coming back when I'm ready to. And no, you should too. Even your micro failures, whatever it is, even in your life, not even in business. Like, don't let this stop you. Because at the end of the day, like, we have to fail to succeed. We do. we do have to get knocked down to get back up how else we learn we only learn from our experiments we only learn like we don't learn we don't learn as much from our successes as we do our losses and to close what is that thing that you've learned that you'll be taken into your next business i mean it's probably a lot of things but if there was one thing that you're like okay next time this isn't gonna happen oh this isn't gonna happen or it is however things usually went left when i doubted myself i don't i'm not gonna doubt myself again and i have not doubted myself even post like the thing i'm like nah i'm a sick businesswoman like that that is that is what's in my head i was like that's that's the one thing i walked away with i said oh rah like i can really do this like this like i'm scared for everybody when i come back as everyone else should be everyone because i i my my my brain was not acquired you know so i'm still here and i'm only getting better by that by the second so i'm just leaning into my strength but also i'm i almost feel like i built myself like an mba so i know exactly what like i feel like i'm so happy i'm not a first-time founder again but powerful yeah i'm so happy knowledge is power and there is i you know it's really hard for you to put that into one thing that you've learned because every day is a school day isn't it when you're a first time founder but like you say you'll never be a first time founder again and i am for one very excited to see what you build because i can feel the fire in you and that is an exciting place to be but take that time do you know do you're not sort of this isn't on anyone anyone else exactly clock yeah it's on yours exactly and you have lived that you are at the other side and you will know when the right time exactly so you'll be hearing from me maybe you'll be back you'll be the first guest to be on here three times you're like it's the first person the first person that's done three times now she's back with anything you made 15 million in your first hour yes i can't wait let's put that into universe thank you girl and well done thank you so much it's not easy to sit and talk about you know it's all great to be like you know we made a million pound in this amount of time but to sit and talk about things that are really kind of still sore and still raw and will probably be for a while you know it's no mean thing so thank you thank you for having me honestly always i love that i love that gosh can you breathe yeah

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