Ep 69: Building Ru & Rocka: From Ideation to Selfridges Launch

0:00Rochelle: On today's episode of Ladies Who Launch, we're talking to Katherine Barlow, founder of Roon Rocker. She turned a£500 Instagram experiment into a sellout success. From running her first brand completely solo to pivoting during COVID by tie-dying tracksuits in her kitchen, Katherine built Roon Rocker into a standout fashion label entirely on her own terms.

0:32Rochelle: I'm so pleased you're here I'm so excited to be here Thank you for having me Honestly, it's so, so good to have you I feel like What's so interesting When I do these episodes Is that I'm lucky enough to have people that I know Come and talk to me But there's actually so many questions That we never ever get to talk about Do you know what I mean? It's like, I know what you do. Of course, I'm always like interested and supportive, but I never get sort of like deep dive into it. So I love it. I love it when I get to do that. Room Rocko is now five years old, which for me, because I remember all of the early stuff, I feel like it's gone like that.

1:10But how is it for you?

1:12Rochelle: Do you feel like this has always sort of been a part of your DNA or is it sort of just happening and you're going with it?

1:17Katherine Barlow: I think definitely the second one. I think it was never my intention to start this. I think with it being five years now, one of my friends said to me the other day, actually, she was like, you're turning five. Why have you not celebrated that? And I was like, because I actually feel like a bit of a fraud if I celebrate because it doesn't actually feel like it's been five years. It only really feels like the last three that it's actually turned into a brand.

1:44Rochelle: for me room rocker has such a clear brand identity and whether that was kind of intentional or not and you've kind of it's just really been you and you've made that shine it's so and we'll get on to that a little bit later that you I can see other big brands now imitating it

2:02Katherine Barlow: and really sort of I'll say using you as inspiration because that's a nice way to put it

2:07Rochelle: Yes. Let's sort of talk about how you found yourself in fashion in the first place. I mean, it's not rocket science. Like, I know that you're very well dressed, but I can tell that that's a real big interest for you. It all sort of starts with your mum, really. So explain this to me.

2:28Katherine Barlow: So growing up, I actually wouldn't say that I was into fashion at all. I was actually a little bit of a tomboy. My sister was always like the girlier one out of the two of us. She's five years older than me. Right. So my mom had a boutique as I was growing up. So she would always drag us to the buying appointments on a Sunday. And I was like, oh, mom, like I don't want to go. I want to be out with my friends. Literally, I was like, do we really have to go? And I used to find it the most like boring thing in the world, like having to sit there and just like look through all the rails. I think it was only once I left school that I really actually enjoyed it.

3:02Katherine Barlow: I think once I could actually fit into the clothes as well that my mom had in the shop yeah then I was like okay actually like I can treat this as a bit of a shopping spree and go get whatever I want so then I actually started to enjoy it a little bit more but I would say growing up like I actually

3:17Rochelle: didn't really care I suppose there's that and I mean even seeing it with my kids now there is that moment where the dial turns a little bit like I'm noticing now in like what I buy the kids for their birthdays and stuff it starts with you could go into one of those big toy superstars spend 50 quid and they've got like a mountain of presents and then all of a sudden it starts to do that doesn't it like the makeup yeah yeah exactly but I'm noticing like between the different ages how Alea now just wants clothes and she's almost 13 and that's yeah it's like a you flick a switch

3:50Katherine Barlow: and you're like okay I actually care now I think as well when you start to see your friends yeah and like on the weekends it does become a little bit of like oh they're wearing that so I want to wear that and I think there was that switch we would go to the wholesalers and I'd be like okay mom like I'm gonna do a bit of like shopping for me now and she'd just be like okay so it was that was probably the moment where it was like I bet she loved that too as well that

4:14Rochelle: moment yeah I think she was like she likes what I do now she thinks it's cool yeah she thinks it's

4:17Katherine Barlow: interesting and there's just me and my sister so we're a very like girl family same as you

4:23Rochelle: I love it lots of girls lots of women dominating poor Marv he's definitely outnumbered he's got Blake now but you know I know he's still definitely definitely outnumbered so tell me about the moment where you thought because obviously I know Ruin Rocker isn't your first bite of the cherry it's not so tell us a little bit about the journey leading up to Ruin Rocker yeah so it was one of

4:46Katherine Barlow: those Sundays we'd gone to the wholesalers me and my mum and um again I was like going around shopping for bits for myself and there was some like cute little dresses like lace dresses and I was like oh they're really nice like I think I could sell those and she was like why don't you just get some and see if you can sell them on Instagram but this was like back in the day like Instagram was not at all very new how it is now like there was no people didn't have like business pages on Instagram it was very much just like your own personal one I don't even think there was like dms at that point oh wow so it would get to the point where like i'd post a picture and i'd have an outfit and my friends would be like oh where's that from and i'd always be like oh it's from my mom's shop so she was like well why don't you just get some and then you can sell them on like paypal and ship it out to them and just see how it goes so i went in the wholesalers chose some random bits and she just put it on her account which was great thanks mom because at the time I had like no money yeah yeah I think I was 17 I think it was like the summer just before I was going to uni so I finished college was just a bit like obviously there's no pressure at that age to like really get a job or whatever I was living with my mom and dad so it's fine so chose these dresses took them home got my friend set up this like full photo backdrop in the living room at home I had a camera because I was always interested in photography so luckily already had the camera we just literally like shot five I think it was between five to ten pieces of my friend in these dresses put them on Instagram and then like within a week they just sold out so I was like mom we need to go back and is that when you sort of really sort of found the

6:27Rochelle: appetite in the sort of business side of it I would say so a little bit I mean I think

6:34Katherine Barlow: in my head it wasn't like I'm starting this business even though I did set up the page it was just more of like a oh this is great you're giving it a go yeah I'm getting a bit of money and like this is great and there was also just like no pressure at all like it was just how beautiful

6:50Rochelle: is that I know you fast forward to now and I know the pressure and the things that you have to make

6:54Katherine Barlow: I feel so lucky actually that I got into it in that way because I think it was just like a nice start out yeah and you just had to kind of figure it out as you went along saying that though I do wish I knew about tax and everything back then because I was spending like everything that I was

7:10Rochelle: I was making I just didn't care I say it all the time it's almost like the finance part has always escaped my brain and I yeah I mean I'm getting better yeah I just say I'm listening more exactly

7:22Katherine Barlow: trying to figure it out but at the time I didn't know what a limited company was I'd set up as a sole trader so I would like go to the wholesalers buy the stock go home sell it and then I would like have a little shopping spree I remember like I'd be in London just like in Harrods like oh yeah do you remember when Stuart Wiseman boots were like the over the knee boots I'd be like oh yeah I'll get I'll get the boots like I'll get some makeup and then I got my first like self assessment tax bill and I was like oh what's that yeah oh I have to pay that but this but you know

7:53Rochelle: this is what I'm so passionate about schools sort of getting behind a little yeah and I know that it's sort of it there's definitely improvement definitely to you know when when I was younger but I remember getting my first paycheck and then saving and being able to buy my first home and I bought an apartment and I was like 19 and I remember thinking oh my god that's incredible it's amazing but I didn't know what the hell I was in for I remember thinking oh my god I've got to pay for water I've got to be like I just didn't understand any of that I thought that that was that and it was part of the house yeah and I remember just I was in a group and I got this check and my mum was like you don't waste that money you buy a property even because just in case you never get one again but I did and then I sort of had bitten off a bit more than I can chew because didn't realize everything else that sort of come with it and it's the same with business like understanding how it works I just wish that they would teach children to be entrepreneurs

8:46Katherine Barlow: yeah and just be a bit more responsible with money I think my mum always tried to help

8:53Rochelle: but obviously like we don't listen to our parents yeah we don't do it and also you're just like a

8:59Katherine Barlow: 17 year old that's just got a bit of extra cash like i i was like this is crazy to be able to be making this money like i mean now i look back and like well like you say at that time in your life

9:12Rochelle: you want the pair of boots that are viable and you want you want to have a nice bit of makeup i was living life like it's like knowing that the money that you get isn't necessarily yours like it's about half of it that has to go somewhere else which is really depressing which is listen it will never not make me cry um so so you were doing this you were gaining momentum and it was called studio studio the label studio the label yeah so you'd put this together and one thing that has always struck me when it comes to you and obviously I didn't know you at this time but um since knowing you and Ruin Rocca is how much how hands-on you are and how you probably don't even see it yourself but how sort of 360 you are across everything in terms of like designing in terms of the production in terms of the that what what we see on Instagram is literally you as in I've seen you in one of when we did the collab for um Cloucher Matcha with um Bryony and I shooting it like finding the model the references the creative every single detail is you when we

10:16Katherine Barlow: did the cloud chick lab I even drew the graphics I remember I remember like you're so it's it's

10:25Rochelle: it's so unique to be that skilled across across every part of what you do and then I remember us doing a launch and then you go right I've got to leave because we've had orders and I've got to get

10:36Katherine Barlow: back tomorrow to send them out like it's so which was crazy I don't know how I did that for so long we went into fulfillment about six months ago which has just been the best thing that I've ever done I can't believe that I ever survived before that but I think it's a good and a bad thing I think for me I just didn't realize that you I think when you're a small brand and you're starting out you kind of tell yourself like oh we don't have the budget for staff so like I'll just do it all whereas like you can we we definitely did at points but I was just like such a control freak that I was like no I have to do this on my own and I also think because I went into it doing it on my own I didn't know any different so it was like I have to do that and then also if I did get somebody to do something I'd be like I really don't like that so I might as well just do it myself but I think it got to a point where it was just like I'd taken on way too much I was having breakdowns and I was just like I can't continue to do everything like I need to

11:40Rochelle: ask for help like yeah and also I think you get really used to like the sort of outgoings the incomings how that looks what that then means for the next drop and what you could put into that but you then think I'll do it myself because we can't afford it right now and and you probably could

11:55Katherine Barlow: have done and also it's realizing like your time is really valuable and you can if you did hire somebody that takes away that gives you more free time for yourself to do what you're great at and then the money comes back in because you've actually like got someone dealing with the

12:14Rochelle: stuff that you don't need to do and particularly when you're the one that's super creative I think you spend so much time in the weeds which is right we all have to do that and you know that is part of it but actually if you've got the means to be able to lean on somebody for support or people for support that it gives you more time for your brain to be free the stuff actually means the business exists in the first place yeah so so when you start having success with studio the label and obviously you're it's it's still a small business but you're it's working you've got a bit of independence you're still very young where does the sort of transition come into play with Ruin Rocker and why Ruin Rocker and why not extend studio the label so we started out just

13:05Katherine Barlow: with random pieces so there was like the lace dresses and then we when I went into the wholesalers one day they had this brand do you remember Laurie and Jo yeah like a resort wear brand they had this brand and I at the time I just fell in love like it was so me it was so girly colorful and I remember just being like I need to sell that so that was the starting point of studio studio was a resort wear brand technically so it was like very colorful like very girly so we were doing really well my personal style had started to change ah yes it was the the studio stuff was very as I said like girly and I felt like my everyday style was just different to that and it was hard to kind of translate the resort wear and the everyday style and I also I think from day one I've always had this like OCD even just like on the Instagram feed like everything has to be perfectly created

14:00Rochelle: but you can see that by the way it's like it honestly like it you can see how much time and

14:06Katherine Barlow: thought goes into it which I love I think that's one thing that I was just like I cannot put like a winter coat next to like a pom-pom dress like this is just not it wasn't making sense to you so I'd set up room rocket alongside so at the time I was buying more cooler pieces that I was selling on there I was actually having a little look yesterday at some of the pieces and I was like wow this is crazy and then lockdown came around which changed everything completely yeah I just launched the first drop of the year for studio so all the new resort went uses and then lockdown no one had anywhere to go well exactly yeah I think it was was it April lockdown it I do you

14:50Rochelle: know what I remember I remember it being on my birthday and my birthday is on the 21st of March

14:55Katherine Barlow: and I remember us it was end of March April watching the announcement we're away for the weekend for my birthday so end of March yeah yeah so I just launched the collection like the first drop of the year and like had like a good response had quite a lot of orders and then obviously they announced the lockdown so then automatically like everyone's holiday is obviously cancelled so then people are thinking like well i've spent 200 pounds on a caftan like i don't need that i'm gonna return it so i was like oh my god like what am i gonna do and then you have to honor all of your like your returns policy still remains and i just thought like how am i gonna deal with this so i think there was like an uneasy like couple of months and i think everyone was the same no matter what business you were in like it was just a let's play by ear see how it goes sort of thing so received a lot of the orders back had to process the refunds which was like really that's like yeah that's like a knife to the heart um and then I was like right how do I pivot this like how do I make this happen um and at the time I don't know if you remember but tie-dye was like the thing huge and everyone was tied track suits and that yeah yeah that was like the thing in lockdown everyone was just in hoodies and like everyone was like yeah yeah and do you remember when everyone was like hanging like the duvets out in the garden to do photo

16:15Rochelle: shoots and stuff yes i did i did one of those because i still had to work and i remember we

16:21Katherine Barlow: shot an advert in front of a sheet so that was it i was like i'm gonna get some tracksuits in I tie-dyed um them at home in the kitchen I'd sent one out to an influencer she'd seen it on the page and she was like oh my god I love it like I need that tracksuit so sent one to an influencer she did a post and then it just like went off it's crazy like I must have sold like hundreds of these tracksuits no but they were hand tie-died oh god that was I was like dad god help everyone's tie-dying today literally so that was kind of the start I did I remember I did a baby pink one for studio even though it didn't really fit the vibe but it fit the feed the pink flowed yeah that was nice yeah and then I did like this forest green one for room rocker and then that was the moment where room rocker kind of started to take off and I think because my personal style had changed I just thought why am I trying to continue something it's like you feel

17:23Rochelle: like you're forcing it a little bit because I do I do often think that and also like you say you start studio when you are you're young and of course if you we if we all look back at pictures as to what we're wearing at like 17 18 19 like my style is so different so then you're having to stay somewhere it's almost like you're not evolving as a person because you're probably picking what's right for the brand but actually not right for you but you need to feel as passionate

17:48Katherine Barlow: about it as you do room rocker and room rocker that's that felt like me whereas studio didn't and there was the uncertainty as well of obviously when the holidays were gonna yeah we didn't know when we were going away yeah so i kept it up for a while but just stopped posting on studio and then just like ran with room rocker i think one of the main reasons as well that i did start room rocker was because i would go to all the effort i would have a little mirror in my office and take all the outfit pictures of myself and other brands would then steal the images yes and put them on their website and also undercut me so then I would just be like oh my god I'm putting in all this effort you're literally stealing my pictures yeah so I just wanted something that felt like it was mine and that people can maybe replicate but they can't necessarily yeah of course because do you

18:41Rochelle: know what you're right I didn't even think about that when you're sort of buying at wholesalers you're not really part of the design process you're picking in what you what's great you know editing it essentially as to what you like and selling it on your storefront it's not necessarily your own designs and that input but if you're making it you know come across a certain way and you're articulating it really well like you say other people are going to then buy in that stock or the I remember speaking to um Connor Walker at House of CB and when she first started she was doing the same it wasn't her designs it was sort of buying in certain dresses at the time she was selling them on ebay that was like the place to do it but she would like be on the phone to supply ordering more things in different colors and they would be like oh my god this dress is doing really well for us at the minute so we're selling loads of them and she's like that's kind

19:29Katherine Barlow: of not the point it's the most frustrating thing and similar with me it's like i would pick out a style and instant instantly be like oh my god i love that dress go home go to all the effort of like you know getting ready taking the picture in the mirror and then literally a week later someone would literally have screenshot it and be selling it and it would be their best seller yeah and also I would then not be able to get the stock from the wholesalers because other people

19:55Rochelle: have been in to get it and it was like the most frustrating thing and it was and that must be a similar thing for you because that's when Connor said that's when she realized I need to change supplier and actually really design because I know now what I want because of all the learnings of what she'd done previously and then obviously house of cb has gone to be the house of cb that we know and love but i think you must anyone that's sort of operating in that way at the start and dealing with a supplier must get to a point where they think do you know what this is we've reached our limit here yeah that's now about the next step that's what it felt like and i thought

20:30Katherine Barlow: if i'm actually gonna make a go of this it has to be something that is mine yeah and that feels true to me and also just even has like the brand on it yes just so it feels well no one else can

20:43Rochelle: no one else can come in and use you and sell it and which is wild is it so that's also really interesting to me with like social media is essentially you should own that image but once it then goes online there's like a really gray area isn't there that actually should be able to stop people using your images but I think it's got slightly better like you have to sort of ask it's a bit of a sort of handshake now but it is interesting isn't it you put it out there and

21:07Katherine Barlow: someone else is literally just take it for that it's crazy and as I touched on before that it

21:13Rochelle: really sort of it really shines when I think of you is that how sort of hands-on you are and how I've witnessed it how sort of you are part of every step of the process which is is really common with startups but it's also rare at the same time like every single detail you being there across the design the look the feel the everything they're sending out the orders sometimes people are really quick to bring hires in and maybe do that a little bit prematurely how long did it take for you to make your first hire and how long were you literally

21:49Katherine Barlow: in the trenches alone I was in the trenches up until early last year which is crazy because now I think I've got one employee. We are a team of two to this day.

22:03Rochelle: It's just even still though. I know. It's so impressive.

22:06Katherine Barlow: Thank you. I think it's more, I think it's me trying to do everything is probably like one of my best qualities, but also one of my worst because I think you can't possibly be good at everything. Yeah. You can try to be, but there's just no way that you can be perfect in every single area. I mean, now, obviously, we've gone into the fulfillment center, could not live without that. Which is almost like taking on a few members of, you know, you know.

22:38Rochelle: Well, exactly. It's almost like onboarding a whole other side of it, which does take a lot of heat off you too, I suppose.

22:45Katherine Barlow: When I think back to even just that side of things, packing the orders, it's like you're having to arrange what date the shipment's coming in. And once those 50 to 100 boxes arrive at the office, you're then having to unpack them or you're having to count the stock, put them on the shelf. Like that's all. That would take a day in itself just to get that stock on the shelves. Whereas it's like that whole day is mine now. That can be left to them.

23:08Rochelle: And you can put it back into like what you're best at and what really matters to you. So that's basically four or so years really figuring this out and doing it like a one man band. I mean it's still only a two-man band it's still incredibly tiny which is which I love it's incredible what when you were looking to hire what was really important to you as in what did you feel like you needed the most support with at the time I think I just needed somebody that was

23:36Katherine Barlow: an all-rounder right I needed somebody that could just be my right hand I'd be like right we're going to learn logistics today you're coming with me to the warehouse like I need you to know about this I need you to be able to be hands-on help me with the design I need you to also help me with it was I just needed somebody who was like good at everything yes um almost more of a support I

23:59Rochelle: suppose like sometimes people we discuss it on this podcast a lot some people do exactly what you said where they hire someone that's like an all-rounder someone that knows all aspects of the business that you can really lean on or some people hire someone that has that they don't share the same skill set at all so almost if that was me I'd hire someone that's amazing with logistics and finance and you know that sort of the business manager decisions where I can just then go and be creative and have these ideas and you can help me put them together you know I mean that would be like my thing but at the at the start when you're making a first hire was it really important that whoever that was had an understanding of how you work definitely and I

24:45Katherine Barlow: actually got really lucky so um Ella who works for me she's actually a friend before she joined to Brewing Rocker and she had studied fashion marketing at uni so it just went hand in hand one day I was like do you think you could maybe help me with something and she was like oh my god yes of course like I would love to um and we went for a coffee and I was like how would you feel about not leaving me i was like i don't think i can live without you now um so she obviously was so happy and she was like oh my god i'd love to 100 percent um and then since then she's never left my side but i think for me the problem was i had this real issue of letting people in

25:29Rochelle: i almost was a bit like scared to hire why do you think that is because i i actually share the same sentiment as you where I when it comes to my job I'm definitely a bit of a control freak not not toxically so but I just like to I don't know if I've got this weird fear of like being taken advantage of and someone doing something that isn't right or not necessarily like a decision or something that feels silly but I've always had this like weird fear of I suppose someone taking the piss and I feel like I've had to have eyes over everything at all times. I think that's amazing.

26:09Katherine Barlow: I think there's something to be said for knowing every step of your business and what each department kind of takes. For example now if I hired somebody I know exactly what that role is like I know how long that job should be taken. Yes. So I think it's it's not a bad thing to be cautious.

26:29Rochelle: Because you've done every part of the business at this point that you know that hang on a minute well that's not a day's work yeah you should have done that this morning you could have done that within an hour so it is but then also it makes it hard for you because it's a hard

26:43Katherine Barlow: hire and as you say hard to let someone in I think I just convinced myself that I just didn't need anyone and I was like absolutely fine but then I would have actual breakdowns and be like no

26:56Rochelle: Catherine like yeah this is not okay like you need help and what's interesting is like family boyfriend like your support system like you need help now were they were they saying it to you for

27:08Katherine Barlow: a long time yeah I think to be honest I'm so so lucky my family are just like the most amazing supportive like my mom and dad honestly are so incredible they were tie-dying with you in lockdown

27:20Rochelle: They tie-dye in hundreds of tracksuits.

27:23Katherine Barlow: My boyfriend as well, like he's so supportive. And I was so lucky that I had them to always kind of go to and ask for advice.

27:32Rochelle: What do you think it is that you were almost scared of when it comes to hiring?

27:40Katherine Barlow: I think I was just like really afraid to let somebody in and also see the behind the scenes. yeah even maybe it was a part of like feeling a bit not I wasn't where I wanted to be so then I was like didn't want people to see that I wasn't yet there that's interesting yeah because I think

28:00Rochelle: we all have that sort of fear of and we discuss it a lot on here that fear of embarrassment you know when you put yourself out there everything now is so social media driven and everyone knows everything which means that if I don't know I'm just gonna put this in sort of something that might relate to you but if a drop is released and the drop doesn't do as well as you might think

28:22Katherine Barlow: it's all everything's just there isn't it you sat there I remember even before I'd made my first hire and I would have a drop day and some drop days would be amazing and others wouldn't be that great and my mum would be like or my boyfriend would be like oh how's it gone I'm like don't

28:39Rochelle: Don't ask me. You would know by now that if I've told you it's good, that means it's good. I've already said it.

28:47Katherine Barlow: It's crazy. I do think a part of it was that. I think it was just like I'd convinced myself that, no, I'm fine. I don't need any help. I can do it all on my own. I was afraid of letting somebody in. Like letting someone under the hood of it a little bit.

29:00Rochelle: Because I think sometimes, like you say, and that's really honest of you to say, because actually we can, as much as it's all everything's loud and it feels quite exposing. I suppose you can let people in online as much as to a point.

29:14Katherine Barlow: You have control over what you want them to see

29:16Rochelle: and what you don't want them to see. For example, if you said, oh, this has gone really well. There's only a few sizes left. I would believe that because that's what you're telling me. But for all anybody knows, you could be sat on so much stock and that might be, and we see loads of brands do that as almost like a marketing tool because we want what we think we can't have. So it is really interesting. And sometimes, like you say you've got it then has to be somebody that you know you can trust because you've let

29:44Katherine Barlow: them into yeah how this all works and I think now that I've made the first hire you just feel this sort of like relief and I'm like okay that wasn't that scary yeah let's hire some more people I think freelance is an amazing thing though I think being able to I think now it's such like an accessible thing um being able to get outsiders to come in and help with the areas that you're

30:09Rochelle: kind of struggling with so brilliant and I think there are so many incredible I work with so many incredible freelancers and also it gives you the freedom as the business owner to be able to try new things and not over committed and you know when you've got certain forecasts and budgets and how it looks for the rest of the year you can try this for a second and actually pull back and then maybe get them back on in a few months time like it really I think it really serves both parties

30:37Katherine Barlow: too and you also don't want to run before you can walk for me it was so important like I wanted to build something that was authentic and that had a natural growth I remember at one point um I'd gone to a meeting and someone said to me so how are you going to scale this and I remember sitting And they're thinking like, yeah, I used to find the word scale the scariest thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But obviously.

31:02Rochelle: You have scaled. Yeah, we have. But you don't. It's when somebody sort of. Says that. It's quite disarming, isn't it?

31:08Katherine Barlow: Yeah. And it's nice to feel like you've done it in a natural way. Yeah.

31:13Rochelle: That you've been ready for the growth that you've had. And I think like you say, sometimes it's all pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and doing things that feel scary. Like you say, hiring. And also having a responsibility. when you're so used to doing it yourself and like you say you have some drops that fly it's like the nature of every single brand some that don't perform as well as you might have thought but having that added pressure of being responsible for somebody's wages that is somebody's life

31:39Katherine Barlow: was that scary to you I think so I think probably a reason I'd talk myself out of like well that money that would go on someone's wages could go into another drop or another new collection or whatever um so I think it was scary knowing that you had that full commitment but then once you kind of get over that you realize that ultimately it's just benefit benefiting the business yeah

32:05Rochelle: all around it's like leaving the fear at the door with it a little bit and like once you know that you're in it's like okay this is only gonna benefit me and like you say you can I can only imagine how that's freed up your time because I know how much you were doing so it's it's just being brave isn't it and like ripping the band-aid off a little bit I suppose I want to talk about um something that I think happens when any brand has their own identity as in like their clear sort of DNA of a brand and I understand what it is and I'm instantly bought in I think that's something that Ruin Rocker has had so early on and I don't know if that is like that was something that was a conscious decision or it just it feels so unique and so sort of authentic to what the brand is I don't ever feel like I see Ruin Rocker trying to do a certain style or being so led by fashion trends I think there's always a little bit of that of course because you're a current brand but it's it's very true to its own DNA which I think is for me so appealing I'm like I love that in a person too I'm like I love a person when I know who they are and they own who they are and I think that's exactly what Ruin Rucker does I think when you do that well you always leave yourself open to people with I would like to say take heavy inspiration but ultimately it's copying and I do think we're in an era where we're seeing these big brands with big budgets with sort of a big team behind them that isn't like a two a two man band really taking inspiration and copying small brands that have really carved out their niche and like made their identity so so clear and I know that you've had that quite a bit recently which as we always like to say is like imitation is the biggest small of a flat under the battery yada yada yada great it's a compliment yes we know we're supposed to see it that way but that can be so frustrating when you're still you're five years old but that's still a brand in its infancy and you're really building that customer and you've created that loyal shopper but to see a big brand trying to have a slice of what you're doing I mean that is

34:39Katherine Barlow: frustrating right it is frustrating I think anyone would be lying if they said that it wasn't yeah everyone would always say oh but they'll never be you and I think you you know that but I think you can't help but feel yeah frustrated about it I think one of the most difficult parts is when you have designed something from scratch or when it is such a specific design and you just know like you see it and you're like that's mine I think that's the tricky part because you are a team of two and the sampling process i would be the same with you is such a lengthy process like from start to finish what you see on the shelf has taken like a year to develop so i think the frustrating part is then seeing it out there as like a dupe or and almost like like you have literally done the hard work for them you've done like six to twelve months of sampling and then they've gone into one design meeting and gone yeah let's do that that'll work for us and then they probably put it into production within a month and you're just like okay how is that fair

35:43Rochelle: because obviously they have the ability to do it and they are suppose are those fast fashion brands that turn things around on a dime you'll see an award show and see a certain kind of dress and then within a couple of weeks the brand have managed to bring something similar to life which i understand is there's a place for everyone and it's kind of the nature of the beast does that did that make you sort of have a moment where you think oh we're really on something here like this is I've I've launched I've I've kicked off because people are really looking to us for their inspiration brands that have a boardroom of people that should come up with that inspo are looking at

36:22Katherine Barlow: little old me yeah I think it's trying to turn it into a positive yeah once the first sort of like anger is worn off i mean to think that these big companies are going into a meeting and we are on their mood board or we are on their like shoot vision board like obviously it's incredible like that's what you want you want to be seen you want to be on people's radars um so yeah definitely it's a bit of a positive as well as a negative yeah yeah of course but it's like you say once

36:53Rochelle: you when you're so in it once you try to be a little bit objective and sit outside of it like if you like me knowing that story I'm like oh it's great they're obviously you're on you're on to a winner and they're looking at you when you're still sort of trying to you're trying to get that message across aren't you and you're doing it in such a way that I could only imagine how long the mood boards take for you to put together and you really trying to figure out what you're doing and for someone else to go here you go and not only copy the designs but copy the whole creative that went along with the designs too it's lazy from them that's all I say we've had it with my little coco yeah i've had two big huge retailers that sell baby products at you know a fraction of the price sit in a room and decide they're going to do it because it works for us i know other brands in space have had a similar thing happen to them too where we kind of my whole goal when launching my little coco six years ago was making that baby aisle feel a little bit more love to feel you know know that actually it's probably a mom or a dad that's shopping let's make it feel a bit like the skincare aisle does at the other side of the store so it was really like for want of a better phrase like making the baby I'll feel a little bit sexy and a bit fun like speak to the parents too and then you have brands that have been doing the same archaic thing for years and then they come and just completely come and like you know completely copy what you're doing like it is wild I suppose the once more that time goes on you'll be a little bit more comfortable like oh that was clearly a hit you know yeah I think I've definitely grown

38:29Katherine Barlow: like a thicker skin to it I think in the earlier days it would really rattle me and I'd be like oh my god whereas now I'm just like it is what it is it will never be the original um and I also think like as they say like no publicity is bad publicity so if it draws people to the brand then

38:45Rochelle: then so be it and also I do think when you fall in love with a brand it isn't just like one t-shirt from the brand or one pair of jeans it's like the whole story and wanting to be a room rocker girl so I think a dupe version of a yellow t-shirt or however it looks and however they've put it across isn't going to make you then shop there yeah I think ultimately you're not going to lose a

39:09Katherine Barlow: customer like if you have a diehard room rocker customer they're not going to go and buy the dupe yes um I think they'll always like stay true I completely agree it's just remembering that

39:21Rochelle: when they happen you're like remember this remember this um I want to ask you because when you sort of look back at everything like you know when we're talking the wholesaler days the Sundays of your mom and her giving you like 500 pounds at the wholesaler to pick the lace dresses what do you think if you look back from the start today what would you say that you're

39:43Katherine Barlow: most proud of I would say just being able to have done everything on my own for so long because it was it was challenging but I'm also really proud of getting to where I am now on my own we've had like no investment no outside help and obviously we launched in Selfridges in September which was

40:04Rochelle: crazy that was incredible but the fact that you launched in Selfridges with such little support

40:11Katherine Barlow: behind you is like it's no mean feat that was a real pinch me moment when I was fortunate enough that they reached out to me and said would how would you feel about room rocker being in and we had the meeting how cool did you play it I was I was cool to them but at home I was like I rang my mom I rang my dad I rang I was literally telling everybody like oh my god but then I was like no I need to chill because I've not even had a call yet what if it's what if it's a no

40:39Rochelle: like it might not be happening it's iconic and the like the selfridges i would say if you are in the fashion industry beauty industry however that looks it's a bit of a that would have been on a vision board for i'm assuming for you but for for most brands what was the what was the biggest challenge of fulfilling that because i know like when you're used to doing something yourself and you've got like such a small team you're used to sort of operating in a certain way but then going into retail it is a different beast isn't it whereas like DTC you're kind of

41:15Katherine Barlow: used to controlling that it's a whole new side to the business I remember when I had the first call with them where it was a bit like is this gonna be happening is it not gonna be happening um I was thinking don't get your hopes up you know like this might not happen and I also felt at the time this was pre going into fulfillment center so I was still packing all the orders so I had no idea on the side of logistics I didn't know how all that worked so then I'm automatically like thinking 10 steps ahead thinking well how am I going to get the shipment in how does that then go to their warehouse I was like really in panic mode and I was thinking like am I ready for this but also it's such an amazing opportunity that's been presented that I can't say no to that so we had the call and I remember thinking just don't get your hopes up like it might not happen and then she said to me how soon can we get the stock like can we get it next month

42:04Rochelle: and I was thinking oh my god and was that a case of like I always think in these situations was

42:09Katherine Barlow: that like say yes and think about it oh 100 % then the rule yeah then I was like right after the call I thought right we've got like six to eight weeks to turn this around which is a tight that's a tight turnaround very very production yeah of course um so in that process i then um went into the fulfillment center i'd actually done a collaboration with the napco yes with the pajamas um and they were already in fulfillment and i remember just having like a really open honest conversation just being like what's your thoughts on it like because i had the office which is like my sanctuary but also it was an operating warehouse at the same time so it was like you want it to be peaceful and like tranquil like this exactly yeah so I remember she said fulfillment is the best thing that I've ever done like I really think that it would be really good for you so I went um to meet with them they sent me over a quote and I remember looking at it at the cost thinking this is a lot this is going to be a lot like a big commitment each week um obviously even if the orders weren't coming in you still had to pay for the storage costs you still have to pay for all these things so at the time I remember thinking like this is a risk for me it was out of my comfort zone as well it was something that I just didn't know anything about but I just thought like in order to grow you have to make these uncomfortable steps yes and I think also given that obviously I was going to go into salvages it just made so much sense at the time that everything was going to be streamlined through the fulfillment center and that was such a big

43:50Rochelle: milestone like a big beast like selfridges that's like like how would you have even gone about it

43:57Katherine Barlow: the first order they placed i remember when it came through i just thought maybe they'd like take a few pieces and just see how it goes they placed a huge order for most of our styles wow so it was like incredible news but also how am I gonna do it yeah you know in that time like you

44:14Rochelle: say it's so sort of out of your comfort zone and so of course this is what you do but the retail piece is is is a completely different I remember like and I'm lucky that I've got a team that I lean on in that but getting my head around logistics and like sellouts and what that means and how you've got to have enough pipe fill and this that and I remember just being like a sponge to it all but not understanding it yeah what like what do you actually or what does it mean what you know the acronyms and the lingo and getting your head around it because it's a brave thing to sort of ask questions out loud we all have that like you say that moment where you hire somebody and you take somebody on you don't really want to there's that period of time where you're not sure about letting someone know exactly how the business runs and operates and the only way you can grow as a founder and as a person in that instance is to ask questions did it sort of take you quite a lot of courage to have like a real honest conversation with someone else that

45:14Katherine Barlow: you thought that could support you um not really I think I am such an open book maybe sometimes too much of an open book so I it felt quite natural to have that conversation and also I I felt like were very similar brands me everyone rocker in the napco so we were kind of on the same journey but it just felt like she was a little bit further ahead of the journey so it was like any insight that you can give me I mean that period of time was great when we did the collaboration because there were certain things as well that I was teaching her that she said to me like wow I've never like looked at that or thought about that before um so it was great kind of leaning on her

45:57Rochelle: for advice yeah of course and I think that's what that's what I think a lot of founders that's when we all better ourselves right the more questions we ask the more and like you share with each other like you say you ended up helping her but for you you really needed to find out certain information but I think that's where that that's the thing that does actually let a lot of people down because we become very like insular in our own little world and we're doing it and sort of yeah and again it comes back to that fear of embarrassment fear of thinking that a bit of imposter syndrome like I should know this like how has this happened to me but I think like you say having to saying yes and figuring it all out later I suppose you put yourself

46:38Katherine Barlow: in the situation where you just have to get on with it and I think sometimes

46:42Rochelle: they're the best moments aren't they yeah so do you think that the way that you sort of started in such a unfiltered way you were across everything and almost like a little bit we say like scrappy startup do you think that's changed the way that you now see and run the business definitely I

47:01Katherine Barlow: think it's really allowed me to look into every single aspect of the business which overall has just given me like such a clearer way of like how to operate and I think like I said before when I started out it never to me felt like right I'm starting a business it was just like this has happened we're gonna have and I enjoy it yeah we're gonna have to run with it so I think looking back I don't regret doing everything for as long as I did on my own I feel like it was a

47:28Rochelle: nice yeah and like you say it's such a a beautiful thing because it really does give you scope on like how long things should take what it you know what sort of person it's going to take to really make that role shine or like you'll instantly have an understanding because you've done it or you know what you needed more of or less of so I think it is it's a great way to start because everything now will feel like growth because you'll feel so supported because you'll have a team under you which is which is incredible I always love this question because I always feel like it's a little bit of a preview but what is next for Rua and Raka so we've got the white jeans

48:08Katherine Barlow: as we were discussing before.

48:10Rochelle: I'm so delighted. What you won't have seen is before we started recording, Catherine walked in and I was like, please tell me that you're a rocker. The jeans are... Your jeans? Okay, we just need to quickly just debrief on the jeans quickly because you were kind enough to send me a couple of pairs of the jeans. And I tried them on in the office. And this is why it's so interesting that it's you because I was like, oh, they're going to be good because I just see you as a person always wearing great fit in jeans. so I tried them on and everyone literally two members of the team were like I know I can't go ordering the jeans then I went home and ordered another pair because I was like these are going to move quickly and I need the black pair um so first of all they if you haven't tried them yeah

48:52Katherine Barlow: try them they're incredible we've got the jeans we've got so much coming up for spring summer this will be our biggest year yet in terms of pieces and drops that we've ever done oh my gosh So that's super exciting. But I'm just so excited just to continue building on what we've already got and just enjoying every single moment of it. I bet.

49:13Rochelle: And like you say, those changes that you've had to the business, although, like you say, the core team is still very small, that must just allow you to really, like the time that it's given you, to have more drops and more kind of creative time to do what you love.

49:31Katherine Barlow: I've had so much more free time to be able to do the part of the business that I really love is designing the clothes and creating that vibe and that and that even the content for the Instagram. Like that's the part of the business that I just really love.

49:45Rochelle: But you can see you do it so exceptionally well. Like you are, as we know, other people's muses, girl, other people's muses. I'm going to do a rocket round now. So these are quick fire. I mean, they're always supposed to be. We're supposed to answer them quite short, but it doesn't ever end that way. I ask each guest the same question. And the first one is, what do you think the non-negotiables are for running a business?

50:12Katherine Barlow: It's a boring one, but I would say authenticity. No, not boring. Well, I just think it's like if you are true, like I feel for me, anything I create for Room Rocket is me as a person. Yes. So I think if you just stay true to yourself, then that's you creating your brand.

50:29Rochelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, do you know what? It's so true because I think particularly now with online, it's like it can be really noisy and distracting and you think you've figured something out. And then you see someone else doing a dress and that might work for you and you can get really distracted by outside noise. So, yeah, staying authentic is brilliant advice. what was the moment when you first realized that you truly launched i would say honestly back

50:58Katherine Barlow: when we first launched in 2020 after the tie-dye when we did our first ever room rocker collection that was the moment i do you know the influencer hannah scomberg yes yeah like she's the og like incredible insane when we launched our first ever sorry this is not a quick fire no i love it i love it i mean i want the tea when we launched our first ever um room rocker branded drop she accepted gifting and did a post in room rocker and i remember at that moment being like wow we've nailed it like this is incredible i mean since then obviously there's been ups and downs along the way but I would say at that moment just having something that was mine that felt like okay this

51:44Rochelle: is an influencer you love to sort of go I want a piece of this I mean that is a moment where you're like okay this is landed I dread to think how much that would cost you now I dread to think um is there one piece of advice that you wish that you hadn't listened to not particularly that I can think of do you know what and I love this because I'm sensing the thing like you're you've done it all yourself yeah and you you've built it yourself so I suppose you're kind of on that mission

52:12Katherine Barlow: one thing that I would say is maybe in the earlier days I would try to get too many people's opinion so if I was to design something I'd be like what do you ask all my friends what do you think about that what do you think about that and then you get too many opinions and you should just stick

52:27Rochelle: to what yeah and would you take that on board that would that actually like yeah well I would

52:32Katherine Barlow: take it on board but then I would be just way more stressed because I'd have all these yeah different like you'd give them a or b and then you'd get a mixture of a and b and then you're

52:41Rochelle: just like oh yeah and then you end up doing what you want anyway yeah yeah yeah so i think it's

52:46Katherine Barlow: just like sticking to what what feels right and like you say you ask opinions and sometimes you set yourself up for sometimes you know the answer already though you just need a bit of reassurance and then you're like which one should i post and they say that one you like no i'm both in that

53:02Rochelle: one yeah it's like when i ask him should i wear this or this and he's like that i'm like now absolutely are exactly that what's a skill that you'd love to learn um maybe to learn Chinese so that I communicate better to the factory honestly that is like you'll know one of the

53:20Katherine Barlow: hardest things trying to communicate what you want product-wise to the factory it's just like

53:24Rochelle: yeah sometimes it's painful there's that whole you know language barrier unless you do unless you are fluent in Mandarin it can't be quite difficult until you've got your team and you've got the regular people that you chat with it it's really hard particularly at the start that's a good one

53:39Katherine Barlow: yeah we went out to china in september which was the first ever visit to the factory which it was incredible i think that helped yeah that helped get over like the language barrier but trying to do it over like whatsapp or email yeah and also seeing how

53:56Rochelle: they work and then them understanding you a little bit more yeah i think is so so important um one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started out

54:07Katherine Barlow: it's gonna be a wild ride everything um save money don't spend it all um probably more the the business side of things because i think that's stuff that i've had to learn on the way and i think it's it's a lot even now i think there's so many things that i don't yet know um I think since launching room rocker it's just being it has been a journey yeah it's constant

54:34Rochelle: learning yeah and also you think which is part of it but you also think I could have saved a lot of

54:39Katherine Barlow: time if I knew that or if I you know yeah it's going back to school some things you really then have to just swap on and figure out I think it's like what we said before like when you mentioned you want it now to be a thing where you like learn it in school if I had the basic understanding of even just like what a limited company is and even just the basics. I think that would like help massively.

55:02Rochelle: Yeah, and just help you make better decisions earlier on because you'd understand what your options are. Yeah, or what you're even creating in the first place. We've seen that you've done quite a few collabs, which I love. I love the Napco one. What would be the dream collab for you, for Room Rocker? Or who? It could be like an ambassador or another brand on brand collab.

55:26Katherine Barlow: honestly i think like a road oh yes room rocker that would be insane i could actually see how that would look i just love hayley i mean doesn't everyone yeah like she is just a dream she would

55:41Rochelle: look so incredible in room i could see her loving it though we need to that's that's where we're well i saw this strategy that a lot of people say where they like gift the friends i've seen this Yes. The triangle bikini. Yeah, the triangle bikini. And I think that's quite a... That's the approach. Interesting approach. Get into LA. Yeah. But aren't all her friends like Kendall Jenner? Yeah, so then... She might be a little different. Which I would also love them in it. So it's a bit like, how did we get there? Yeah. I love that strategy. The triangle bikini effect was just brilliant. It was meant to get to Kendall, wasn't it, I think?

56:14Katherine Barlow: So tactical. Yeah. So clever. Okay, fine.

56:17Rochelle: Oh, a room rock at Rose collab would be... Let's put it on the visual board.

56:21Katherine Barlow: Let's just do it.

56:22Rochelle: what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed

56:28Katherine Barlow: honestly the truth the first thing that i do is make a coffee i am just like not functioning without a coffee i quite like that though there's something in the like i yeah my boyfriend will be like you've literally just like stumbled to the kettle to make that like can you not just chill now i'm awake yeah like that is my non-negotiable but you are supposed to drink water before you drink I know which I'm trying to introduce that into my routine yeah we're all trying to get better at that babe sometimes you just gotta function honestly some days yeah it's not happening um and then before bed um I always allow myself half an hour period just before I'm gonna sleep whether that's just to like watch an episode I like a bit of like background noise so I just ensure yeah that I've got an extra half an hour set before I actually need to be asleep.

57:20Katherine Barlow: That's good. Yeah. To just sort of decompress a little bit. Yeah, because you can be sat doom scrolling for hours and you realise it's like 1am and you're like, oh my God. I've got to be up at 5 or whatever. Yeah, so I try to put the phone down and just have that little half an hour to just unwind, watch a vlog. And it's a win if I fall asleep whilst I'm watching.

57:40Rochelle: It's something that makes you switch off. Marvin will sometimes be like, what is this we're watching? I'm like, no, that's the point. I'm not supposed to be gripped to it I want to wind down Sometimes you just want like a cartoon or like something I always say it's like candy floss for the brain You know that just like whatever I ask each guest to leave a tip almost if like somebody's listening to this and they have watched your journey and want to build something in a similar vein if you could leave like one piece of advice that you would say okay everyone needs to know this what would that bit of advice be?

58:13Katherine Barlow: yeah I think breaking through those moments of self-doubt and knowing that it does get better like you might be taking such a huge risk and a huge step and think oh my god like is this even gonna pay off but if you don't take that risk then you don't ever know if it's going to and nine times out of ten it normally does pay off so I would say just take the risk yeah because

58:36Rochelle: that's when you grow as well and like yeah you're really you're you are really testament to that because like you've done it you've done it by yourself and it's like sometimes you can get like in your own head and get trapped in that worry and think should I shouldn't I but that's like you kind of at the time you wasn't necessarily ready for the selfridges order you just figure

58:56Katherine Barlow: you just say yes like we said you say yes yeah just figure it out figure it out and now look

59:00Rochelle: you know and if you hadn't have had that opportunity yeah it maybe would have found someone else and that might have then held you back so so I'd say take the risk yeah yeah figure it out what do they say like rushed is better than perfect no no no briny always says this to me she says done is better than perfect done is better and i struggle with that because perfectionist

59:22Katherine Barlow: because i'm like no it has to be perfect or it's not being posted it's not done until it's perfect this is why i'm so terrible at posting on instagram because i'll be like no i need to set the time to like create this perfect little dump but it's like just post it i know like what's what's gonna

59:37Rochelle: to happen if you don't but it's so true in that but actually I do I think you're either that way or you're not and you'll always look back and think oh god I wish I why did I do that like that I much prefer this now yeah and I think that's that's the point isn't it yeah even if you think it's perfect to you right now in five years time you'll always look back and think oh gosh that's

59:58Katherine Barlow: that wasn't very good and sometimes the stuff you just throw out there or like do on a whim like for us if we ever do a last minute design that can sometimes turn out to be like the best bestseller and then you just like typical okay maybe the one that I spent years on nobody has

1:00:13Rochelle: maybe done is better than perfect if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be like that person that you think if only I could just have her on speed

1:00:26Katherine Barlow: dial and ask her a question I think it would be Kim Kardashian do you know what she's done everything what would kim do and i yeah i think she knows the answer to everything yeah like every time you watch a podcast it doesn't matter if it's like personal or business like she just knows the answer yeah and i'd also love for her to just like time block my day yeah because i think

1:00:49Rochelle: that's one of the things that she's like she's so she's a bit of a unicorn like beyonce isn't it you're like how do they fit all of this into one she's just incredible and do you know what is interesting with her i mean i'm talking like i know her but from what i've seen of her i feel We've spent a lot of our life watching her on telly. But she always sort of, I feel like she's got a calmness to her, which is really refreshing. You know, like it doesn't feel, I mean, I don't work for her. I might be very wrong. It doesn't feel like everything, like she's ever in a flat.

1:01:18Katherine Barlow: No.

1:01:18Rochelle: She feels quite considered.

1:01:20Katherine Barlow: And just takes things on. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good skill set to have. Yeah, a nice attitude to have as well.

1:01:25Rochelle: You could call her and say, Kim, this has happened with selfies, and I feel like she'd have an answer for you.

1:01:28Katherine Barlow: Oh, yeah.

1:01:29Rochelle: That's a really good one.

1:01:30Katherine Barlow: Has anyone got Kim's number? No.

1:01:33Rochelle: about that can we contact her today please um and then lastly I ask everyone this question we talk about ladies who launch when it comes to being a lady who lunches if you are at your office and your is like a typical working day what are you eating and where are you and what are you doing

1:01:50Katherine Barlow: over the lunch hour so it's always a working lunch I like to make the most of of the hour um but i try to take in overnight oats or a little chia seed pudding and ella will take it in terms of like whose turn it is to bring it in so we kind of have like a bit of a brunch yes um and then

1:02:15Katherine Barlow: snacking are you a snacker yeah i'm a snacker there's always like a bit of dark chocolate or

1:02:21Rochelle: something on the go and like you say so you like you opt for like a brunch not a big lunch you You could just keep at it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I like that. Overnight oats is a good thing to take in.

1:02:31Katherine Barlow: Yeah, and it fills you up for the day. Gives you that energy. I mean, I'm not sure how healthy you might not because I've put dark chocolate and peanut butter.

1:02:40Rochelle: It sounds good. But it's delicious. Yeah, that's all that matters. You need something delicious when you're working. Thank you so much for coming on. I've honestly loved talking to you. It's so incredible to see everything from the outside, but actually just hearing it all and the success that you that you've had that you're having and it's still a two-man band like so when people like Ruin Rucker is this big shiny brand that it really feels like it is it's so nice to know that it's you at the other end I feel like it's so so important when you're a fan of a brand so thank you thank you so much for having me

1:03:23Rochelle: Don't forget to follow us on Apple, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss out. Because next time I'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched. If like me, you're a watcher, then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.