Episode 2 – Jo Malone CBE – Rebuilding and starting again

0:12Hi guys, I'm Rachelle Humes and this is Ladies Who Launch. Each episode will dive into the journeys of aspirational women who started from scratch and built their dreams into thriving empires. These are the founders, the risk takers, the go getters that are changing the landscape and making their mark in the world of business. We're here to celebrate their wins, dive into their challenges and share the invaluable lessons they've learned along the way. Ladies Who Launch is about sharing the inspiring stories that could empower you to take your own leap. So get ready to be uplifted by the resilience, creativity and unstoppable determination of today's most extraordinary women.

0:52This is your Girls Group Chat for business and beyond.

1:00Today's guest is a true icon who turned an ingrained passion into powerhouse brands that reinvented the fragrance industry and inspired so many of us to think bigger and dream bolder. Hers is a true story of resilience, passion and staying true to your vision no matter what. From humble beginnings on a council estate in Bexley Heath, to blending scents in her kitchen, to becoming one of the world's most loved fragrance designers, her story is nothing short of phenomenal. Welcome to the podcast, Jo Malone, CBE.

1:38there isn't anybody that hasn't had one of your products in their home at some point or at least wanted one of your products or wants one in their home you are such a household name when I think about your kind of I say past life but it's very much who you are the girl that was raised in Bexar Heath on a council state, struggled in school with dyslexia. Now we are at empire level. I really feel that to be the Jo Malone that we see today and to be the person you are, it all starts back there, doesn't it? Of course it does. Yeah. Do you know something? Nothing is wasted in our lives. Where we come from, who our parents are, what our parents teach us.

2:31I mean, And all of these things in our life, I didn't have the easiest childhood. I don't know what your childhood was. But I always felt my mum and dad did their best. When I look back on it now and I just think it was a different moment in time. They were, you know, they were struggling with their marriage. They were struggling. But I learned, I looked at life every single day and thought, what can I take from this life? What can I learn from it? even at that really young age, I was always thinking, what's in the fridge for the next meal? What have we got to sell in the market? My dad's paintings.

3:09How many face creams have I got to make for the weekend? My brain was always constantly thinking ahead. And yet, at school, I was told I was lazy and stupid because I was severely dyslexic. And I knew I was neither one of those things. But I couldn't prove it. I couldn't come first in an exam or anything. And when I look back on it all now, and I look at a lot of children who, some are very smart. My son was incredibly smart, went to one of the biggest universities in the world. But not everyone needs to do that in order to be fulfilled and build a business. And so when I look back, all of the things I'm teaching in this course for BBC Maestro is all of those things I learned by myself.

3:56I didn't learn it from a book or a teacher or a mentor or a university. I learned it from life. And actually, most entrepreneurs I know learn it from the ground up and they know what it is to be hungry and how they feed themselves, their family and build. And I think sometimes that is some of the greatest lessons we can learn in life. Life is the best school, isn't it? It really is. When you touch on face creams and art, so your parents, what did they do? Because what's crazy to me is that beauty products have always been such a huge part of you. I mean, totally. And I think what a lot of people don't realise is I started out in skincare.

4:42That's how I started. And again, no training but because of my dyslexia I watch I watch and I mimic a lot of the time and actually it's a really good learning technique that's what children do you know when they're watching their older brother or sister and they mimic their behavior well entrepreneurs are very much about that my father was a brilliant artist and my mom was in the beauty industry she actually was a Revlon manicurist in the beginning then went to work for this incredible woman called the Countess Lubati. And there were two great skin doyens of the time, Countess Charki, Countess Lubati.

5:21And they would look after the good and the great and their faces. And my mum worked for the Countess Lubati. Her real name was Doris Hilda Baker. And she had recreated this incredible legacy that she passed down. But from the age of seven, I would sit in the laboratory with her and I would watch her make face creams and I would watch and I would look and she'd bring down the jar of the rose petals and the camphor Chinese camphor oil and she she had a very deep voice like that and she'd go Jo tell me tell me what you can smell and I'd smell it and I go I can smell sandalwood a madam and she'd go exactly where is it from and I smell again that's Asian that's an Indian's sandalwood my nose at that young age was always going to be my golden ticket and I didn't realize it that's so special because you have an acutely strong sense of smell don't you yeah I do I have something called synesthesia as well so I you can see the color in my jacket I'm smelling I can smell pomelo because I know pomelo's in the room but I can smell things like a burnt lemon skin uh with the kind of, so I look at colour.

6:38So your brain, when you see a colour, I can smell straight away. It goes to smell. Yep. Wow. That is a Casablanca lily. And I can smell a little bit of amber and a little bit of cinnamon. Gosh, that is so special. Can you not smell it? No? The room says no. So I thought everyone could smell like I could. And you've known that since you were a little girl. You've always smelt like that. That's just incredible. I could tell when the dog was sick. I would take its paw and smell the dog and say the dog needs to go to the vets. Gosh. I would know if it was going to rain. I mean, and this is what I'm saying, nothing is wasted.

7:21Even my dyslexia, even my dyslexia wasn't wasted. And don't be frightened as a young person when you're going through university and, you know, maybe you're on the spectrum. Maybe you have dyspraxia. You think in a different pattern. It's not a disability. It's the ability to think differently. That's all it is. And when you start to change your mindset on thinking differently, that's when the adventure really begins. It's so powerful. Like you say, that your sense of smell then was your golden ticket and is you. It's so you. How does the little girl that's making face creams and, you know, really kind of invested and really excited by that, not performing, as it were, in the way that you might want to at school or the way that society expects us to, what then comes after that?

8:16What comes before, because Jo Malone London is where you first caught our attention. What comes before that? What's the journey up to Jo Malone London? I was the face girl. So I rented a tiny little apartment. I married a man who, without him, I don't think I'd be sitting here. He's Gary. He and I married at 21 years old. And I remember on my wedding day, two women coming up to me and saying, it'll never last. Isn't that weird? What? Isn't that weird to see that on your wedding day? Anyway, they were very wrong. Theirs didn't last, mine did. Two women? Fabulous. Girls, girls. anyway it did last but he is everything I'm not so I'm very right brain very creative and Gary is very left brain and together as two young kids with no money no experience neither of us went to university he went to building school and he was a building surveyor but he was very disciplined with money so that's where that kind of that healthy balance came in but I ran a skincare clinic for, there's something inside of me, even just every time I say that, it's like, Jo, do you ever want to go back into that?

9:28There's something unfinished. I can see your face lights up. It's unfinished in me. And I don't, I don't know what it is, but it's like, okay, well, I'll listen. If something comes along, I'll look at it. But I started out in skincare, I would look after the good and the great and the, you know, the ones in between. I mean, I was very privileged to, everybody would recommend me. So I never advertised, I didn't need to. It was just completely a word of mouth business. And it was five, six years of my life. So a long time. So then, so skincare, big passion, and I can still see it is now. Where does, because what really fascinates me about your story is really how you were trailblazing and for so many reasons, but particularly when it comes to scents and how you were looking at different scents and layering those scents was so unique at that time.

10:31It's a mission to me. So creating fragrance, I haven't reached the destination yet. I'm still on the journey and the adventure. There is always, I mean, does the world need another bottle of fragrance? Probably not. But when Adele writes a song, you know, does she think when she sort of finished that last song or that album, is that the last one? Is that the last time I'm going to do that? And I think creativity, nobody owns it. You and I don't own creativity. It is a relationship that it wants and it whispers in our ear if we're walking along the beach or we're sitting outside a coffee shop or we're sitting in the school in university writing, you know, an exam paper.

11:15it whispers in your ear and it says are you listening are you there and when and if we don't own creativity but it's it's a relationship that it wants with you it means you've got to work at it yeah you can't just expect there are really talented people all over the world and how many people have we met where they've taken the advantage of that situation and said well I'm very talented it's going to be there forever and suddenly they start to lose that magic so right do you know what I love what you've just said there is taking the pressure off and that's something that I could probably really use with taking that advice is actually sometimes we become so obsessed with Q1 this year and this we've got to get this out by this time and this will be ready we'll make everyone will work around the clock to make sure it is but actually that's where the creativity kind of sits back a little bit and that's where the passion it kind of really disrupts the passion of what you're doing when you look at a timeline or you, you know, which in business, it's really hard.

12:19You do need that, I suppose, as the business goes, but the business is that product or whatever that thing is. I think when you're entrepreneurial and you're starting out, you do so much with so little, don't you? We have a little pool of money. We have a little bit of creativity and you do so much with it. And as you grow, you start and we need structure. Of course we do. We can't have businesses without that platform. But when that structure and that discipline then swamps creativity, that's when you start to fall behind the curve. Yeah. And you start to just become very regimented in what you do.

12:59Allow creativity always with an open door. Allow that bank account. So I believe that every single one of us has a bank account of creativity. The only one that can access it is you. But the only way that that can be accessed is if you use it. So if you start to train your mind to think in a creative way, look at problems as solution solving. Look at things in your business. Of course, we all need to look at our calendars. I mean, I cannot bear those meetings, by the way. I like the ones where I'm going, I've got a product and I twist and I turn and I think and I often sit on my own. I sit on my own with a notebook under the trees by the beach in my shorts and my flip-flops and I think and I allow my mind to run in 24 directions and then I put it into my notebook.

13:51I then take that notebook and those ideas and I take it back to the team and they say where are we heading? What do you want to do. And that's where you change the world. That's where you start to rethink. And, you know, often the greatest ideas in the world are not recreating the wheel. It's just turning the spoke in a different way. It's causing just something to change just slightly. And suddenly you're sat there with a product in your hand that you know can change the world. My paintbrush, Have you seen the paintbrush? I have the paintbrush. That is genius. It's genius. It's a pretty clever kind of product.

14:36So Gary had said to me kind of many years ago, I want you once in your life to change the way the whole world looks at fragrance. Just once in your life, which is a pretty... It's incredible. But also that makes me think of Gary. What an ally to you. What a supportive man that he believes in you in the way he does that. He says, I want this for you. Well, and for himself in the bank account. I mean, let's be honest. It wasn't all about me. But we'll give him the benefit of the doubt, shall we? Yeah, I'm going to Gary now. But anyway, the paintbrush, and I was thinking and I was thinking. And it took me back to my dad.

15:14My dad was an artist. Yes. And I thought, okay, so if I look at your body as though it's a canvas, and I've got a paintbrush in my hand, and you've got a story to tell, my job will be to take that paintbrush and paint that story onto your body so that you're living the emotions that you want to feel. And that was how it started out. The first time I took the idea to my board, marketing board at the time and all the team, every single one of them around that table looked and said, it's gimmicky. No one will want it. No one wants to use it. Yeah, it's okay, Jo, but I don't think it will really change the world.

15:53I walked out of that meeting, burst into tears outside. You know that feeling where you've put your heart and soul into something and everybody just disagrees with you and just doesn't think there's any worth in it. Walked back in and I went, I don't care what anyone thinks we're doing it. And that strength and that bravery. And I was so scared, Rochelle, because I was thinking, if this fails, my business, well, not just that. I've lost my team. I've lost the support of the team. I've lost my credibility. You know, I really had to put myself on the line. And for six months, it was pretty hard work.

16:32And then suddenly, I went to Shanghai on a big trip. And I thought, this is the time I'm going to bring the paintbrushes with me. And I'd gone from New York with WWD. I'd done a big conference with them. And then I went on to China and Shanghai. And it was in China that it suddenly just broke forth. There was thousands and thousands and thousands. All Gen Z, the younger generations at that time. And in fact, I've just come back from Shanghai just recently. And those same groups of people came forward and said, I was in the audience the day that you painted me with fragrance for the first time.

17:12And this time I went, there were 14 million. Oh my gosh, that gives me shivers. 14 million people listening and watching what I was doing and that building. Now, if I had listened to my team at the time, none of them are still with me, by the way. But if I had listened to that, I would have missed that opportunity. So sometimes as the founder, as the creator, as the owner, you have to be the one with the courage. You have to be the one that steps out in the sand with the first footsteps and says, follow me. I'm going to take you. We're going to change the world with this product. That's what makes you an incredible leader.

17:49That's the point where you're a born leader. No, but you are. I don't think so. You absolutely are because they should have been with you and they should have been following because you were doing what you do best. It's okay. You know something? Some people just don't have that belief and they're much more comfortable. And when you're choosing your teams, again, this is when we did the course, this course, it took me two years, by the way, to be convinced that I could even do this because I felt, I often feel two inches tall, if I'm really honest. And I thought, what can I give anybody? And then it took two years of being courted by the BBC maestro course to think, okay, well, maybe I could do something here.

18:34Explain to me about this course whilst we're on it. Explain to me about, because I think it's so genius. It's so needed. And you're an entrepreneur, like that's your default setting, right? And I think something to you that might seem so basic or so kind of natural, we want to hang on to your every word. So tell me exactly what this does it's kind of giving tangible insights and information into that world right it is but it's it's a whole group of people everybody from uh marco pierre white there's all of these courses from if you want to write a book if you want to write music um mark ronson's done one uh trini woodall's just done one as well you'd be great at doing one by the way rochelle really really great And it's a whole series of classes that you can do at your own pace.

19:30It's like four hours of content. And mine is how to think like an entrepreneur. So I will take you from day one and right at the end, on that very last lesson, hopefully you would have crossed the line and your brain will start to think like an entrepreneur. So you can bring that into your personal life, into your family life. How do you raise entrepreneurial children? Which I know your older daughter is very entrepreneurial, isn't she? Oh, she is. She is. And I love it. I love nothing more. I know. So wonderful because it really equips them and empowers them for life. So this course is all about those steps that I take.

20:08How do I choose a team? How do I build hunger for the product when I have no money? So it's taking very much the businesses that I've built. and I've been involved in two unicorn businesses which are over a billion so all of those little lessons I've learned and some of the things like one of the great ones is walking the dogs the empty paper bags that we used to pack with nothing inside them and get people to carry 20 30 bags up and down the high street where we were going to launch genius so it's all of those little tricks And by the time we opened in New York City, everyone was like, this brand is everywhere.

20:51It was empty paper bags, all done with beautiful bows and lots and lots of, you need kind of lots of things to draw attention and the eye. So this course gives all of these tricks and people go, that is genius. And it's like, I'm going to use that. Yeah. Please use that. I mean, go ahead. I'm adding that to my little black book. And it's how to build that hunger, how to build a team, how to keep a team on the same dream and strategy, how to take a small little business and take it global. Exactly what you're just about to do. How do you keep that integrity, that heartbeat? Because you can lose it in a second.

21:28Well, that's exactly where I'd like to go next, actually. I, when we hear your story and how you started and, you know, how it evolves and how you still continue to evolve, how, what was your first step in thinking, okay, I, because I know that you were in your kitchen, weren't you, making your first fragrances. how does that joe go from being in the kitchen you know the sense being your world to then having the smaller boutique to global luxury brand how did that journey look for you step by step moment by moment mistake get up dust yourself down I can tell you there were lots of moments where I was stuck on the edge of a cliff didn't have anywhere to go um I remember going to the bank in the beginning and asking for a hundred pound over to our facility and was refused.

22:26So it was looking at how, how did we grow? I mean, the reason we sold the first business, by the way, is we were growing at such a pace that we didn't have enough money to keep up with the growth. And what will often happen is you'll then start to slide backwards. So how do you keep up with that. And going just step by step, taking those opportunities. I'm always alert. I'm always looking. I'm always wondering what's around the next corner. I'm never worried about being the person that turns around the corner. I don't want to follow the crowd. I don't want to do things that are just ticking boxes.

23:07That isn't the life I want. And it isn't where I want my creativity for people to remember me by. It's always about doing things that are different, taking risks. And I think building that first brand taught me a huge amount. Building a second brand taught me I made more mistakes in the second brand with Jo Loves than I ever did with the first. Weird, I know, and bizarre. And actually, I share those mistakes. That's really so interesting to hear, but also incredible to hear because it's like the reverse of what you would think. It was what happened and it's the truth. And never, again, our stories, your story, my story, whoever is listening to this, your story is one of the most powerful things that you have.

23:55Share it. But don't polish it and make it so that everybody thinks, well, you know, I wish I could do that. Because the fact is what you and I have done, anybody can do that. Anybody can take up. it won't always go the way that you want. You can't always control everything. And you'll probably have to make some adjustments along the way. But it is an adventure and a journey. And you do need to have that passion for what you do, that warrior resilience. You're going to fall down. You're going to graze your knees. I did more times in a second. I mean, I grazed knees for the first three years, I think.

24:32But I wouldn't quit. I wouldn't quit. One more day, one more week, one more month. And often what will happen is the landscape of life will change because life never stays. So when you're sitting on the edge of that cliff and you think, how on earth am I ever going to get down or get up? Just sometimes just stand still, just stand still and think and think of solutions. Use that entrepreneurial toolbox. Think differently about your business, about your family, about your life. What is it you want? Because often small businesses are your family. It becomes part of your family. You create product around the kitchen table.

25:12You sit there and your daughter probably has watched you and watched her mum and thinks, I want to do that. And that is because you sat there within the home. And I'm a great believer in engaging our children and educating them in that entrepreneurial mindset within the home. So if you're building a business, get them to help. Get them to stand on the stall on a Saturday market. They'll love it. Get them to make the soaps or put the wicks in the candle or help package things. I mean, children love to be involved with things that are creative. So I think I wandered off your question there. Sorry.

25:50I tend to do that when my mind's sinking somewhere. No, I love it. I love it. I love it. Like you say, it's so important. I love that that you're doing that with the, what you're doing with the course is what I wish that I'd learned at school. You know, I wish that there wasn't a course that we have to then go back and watch and learn. I wish it was really instilled. And I know that you're passionate about children learning from a young age to be an entrepreneur. What, when we're talking about scaling a business and it's starting off small and then, and you've done it twice, you know, being these global empires, Is it hard, do you think, to keep the brand's essence and what is true to the brand as it grows and it becomes, you know, these household names?

26:34This is one of the, so your integrity, your instinct, your gut, what do you feel is right? So when you take a business global and you go into different countries, you've got cultures that are different. You have to be aware of the landscape that you're going into. and I always think it's good to I've always gone to live in in a place for a month or something and really really kind of picked up way before we even think about what we're going to do we went to Dubai to look at the region so when I three years ago when we packed our bags and we went off and lived in Dubai that was what I went for I went to look at the opportunity and the adventure but I had to understand the place I was going to live.

27:19It's like a research trip, I suppose. Yeah, and it's, you know, learning, just learning all the different. And actually now three years on, I kind of really understand that market now from not just Dubai but the whole region and the whole Far Eastern region, you know, and going to live there. But when you take a business global, you have to have the right partners. And your partners are like someone, it is like taking marriage vows. Richer for poorer, sickness and in health. Better for worse. Better for worse. Until contracts cause us to depart. Yeah. So you have to really choose your partner.

27:56What is your partner's values? Who else do they represent? Then you look at your market. What is the appetite? Who are your competitors? How do I tell my story differently? And different parts of the world will demand different things from you. so we choose really great partners people that feel like our family and lovely katrina who's sitting there is director of education globally and katrina will take all of my stories everything from my mannerisms in my hands everything and she will take that like a manual like a journal really or a passport we call it and she will go train every single story every single way that joe likes something done so that when you visit now the Jo Love, I can't talk about Jo Malone London because I'm not part of it, but all the Jo Love stores, you'll see pictures of me when I was a little girl.

28:51You'll see my favorite book on the side. You'll see a menu of things that I love to eat. It's really about the personality. And I think right at this moment in time, retail, the reason that we are seeing struggle in resale is I think people have forgotten that people want to personally engage. They want to feel emotional about your cocoa brand. They want to feel emotional about pomelo. I want to hear the stories, Jo. I want to hear all those things. So you really do have to keep the string of all of those together and make sure that you train and you teach and you impart that passion, that integrity, that creativity and that resilience within your teams.

29:41And that's what you must look for. It always comes back to the storytelling, doesn't it? You're right. Yeah, it really does. With, and you know, we've touched on your many successes. With success, as we know, always comes challenge, which is part of the journey. I from talking to you you are definitely you air on the side of positivity your glass half full which I love and it's contagious I absolutely love it one thing that I would love to know is that when somebody finds out they're very ill yes to stay positive and to stay the joe that i know that you are must be quite a challenge because when you got your cancer diagnosis you were told it was terminal yes i had nine months to live yeah we'll have a little sip of tea have a little sip of tea i yeah i did which it's the news that nobody ever wants to hear And I suppose that nobody can ever imagine hearing or that it would ever feel real.

30:57How do you remain positive? And how do you, because I know you're a fighter. Yeah. And that's been your journey from the girl in Bexley Heath to now. How does that side of Jo still shine through? That's such an important question. I think I didn't, I wasn't positive in the beginning. You know, when I was 38 years old, Josh was three years old and we'd sold our business. I was living, you know, this incredible life, traveling around the world. And I started to feel very, very tired. And I had suffered hyperemesis when I was pregnant. So, you know, that vomiting bug. So I was seven stone two when I had Josh.

31:44I was tiny. and I think it probably is connected in some way. And anyway, those first few days of being diagnosed were just, I still kept thinking they made a mistake. It's someone else's scan, it's not me. And then it started to sink in that it was me and I had to face it. And that's when I flew to New York and the amazing late Evelyn Lauder said to me, so she's the woman really, that's why we all wear pink ribbons uh incredible wonderful woman um and she took me to the hospital the sloan kettering in new york city and that's where i had all my treatment so some you know people have said to me if you'd stayed here do you think you'd be alive i don't know the answer to that i don't have a crystal ball all i knew was i wanted to fight for my life i love life i love every day and i didn't want it to end and i was one of the first women to take this new form of chemotherapy.

32:45So I had chemo every five days for a year. I had a mastectomy. I lost my hair. I was very, very poorly for a while. And then my life started to come back. And one day, my gorgeous doctor, Dr. Larry Norton, walked into the hospital room and he said, it's gone. It's gone today. And I didn't know whether it was going to come back. It was like walking a tightrope. But I just, I felt like I'd been given maybe six months or a year and I was going to make it count. And actually, I'm now 18 years all clear and I make every day count. And if someone doesn't like what I do or like who I am, I can't change that.

33:29You know, I'm going to be true to myself. I'm going to be the best of Joe that I can be for myself and for others. So that positivity, I think was having the right people around me. Dr. Larry Norton, I knew he was my best chance of surviving breast cancer. Dr. Deeser was the best plastic surgeon. And through that time, Rochelle, there were really sad moments, but there were moments that made me really laugh as well. I know that sounds macabre, but your sense of humour sometimes, just because bad things happen don't be in tears all the time because it's exhausting and I remember Gary coming home one night and I was like eight months into chemo and he bought me shampoo and conditioner and honestly he hadn't realized I didn't have I know yeah I didn't have hair he had seen me as Joe and I looked and I went gosh I guess and we raw with laughter and and there was just so many wonderful times.

34:36I remember the first time I came out of chemo and my hair was just coming back and I'd put a leather jacket on in a New York and biker's boots and I walked into Prada and I thought I'm going to buy myself a handbag to, you know, like, good on you, Jo. Yeah, and I did. And this man came up and he went, can I just say, I love your look? And I said, it's called chemo. so you know sometimes when we go through hard times allow and laughter can often break the intensity yeah and business is the same sometimes we can be in a business situation that is so tense and so difficult just sometimes maybe this is age I don't know you take a step back and you breathe and you look at it and you just find something that makes you smile and then sometimes your brain then starts to think, okay, maybe we need to look at this in a different fashion and a different way and nothing is wasted.

35:35So you make a mistake, you get it wrong, you've learned from it. Nelson Mandela once said he either learns from something or he wins. Wow. Both situations. I mean for a man like that to be able to say that. That's so powerful. So powerful. So you either learn from it like I'm not going to do that again or I'm going to do that every time or you win. And it's the way your mindset thinks about business and life and family. And I think that is definitely who I am. I'm a full glass person, but I've had many empty glasses. And sometimes, you know, you just have to bluff it. You've got an empty glass and you've just got to bluff your way through and talk yourself through the situation.

36:19And I've done that many times. I just love that. I mean, that is just such a powerful outlook and such a kind of unique quality to have, especially when you're faced with a situation like that. To be able to pull that from somewhere and still seek joy and have such resilience is absolutely incredible. Well, to get your life back as well. And I remember my first week coming out of chemo, coming back to London, and I arrived on the plane. Oh, my goodness. I had walked around my house in my head so many times because I had to be near a hospital, literally two hours from a hospital through a whole year because I would get so sick, my white cells would drop.

37:03And I remember coming home and saying to myself, right, that's it. I'm going to get rid of everybody in my life I don't like. And I'm only going to concentrate on people. It's not real. You can't do that in life. You can do it for a bit. But you know something, sometimes being in a situation with someone, especially in business, you don't like or you don't, you've got to find a way through. You've got to find a way through where the two of you, it can be a win-win situation. And you can sometimes learn more from that. It might be someone you're negotiating with in an apartment store and they will not budge and they will not give you one more step.

37:39And you think to yourself, well, you know something, I'm worth 10 more steps. I would say, are they prepared to give you three? If they're prepared to give you three, they're prepared to give you five and you meet halfway. And often negotiating in business deals, that's what you have to figure out is how far will I be prepared to go? And you learn that from that resilience I'm talking about through life and in business. I mean yes and it's so right how every part of your journey kind of falls back to how you handle and how you lead the way in business did your idea of success change after that experience did your idea of success change and did you measure success differently do you now uh that's that's a really good question I do yes I am I'm a different person And something happened to me during that time.

38:38I lost my sense of smell, by the way, as well. So I couldn't smell anything for a good year. And one of the reasons I left the business and walked away was I thought, how can I head a global fragrance brand and I can't smell? And I walked away. And within a month, my sense of smell came back. How ironic is it? And it came back. My sense of smell is so different now. I feel more animal than I do person. I feel much more like a dog. So elephants, bears, dogs, anteaters, horses. They all have, they're all the best noses in the world. Anteater, isn't that amazing? But I feel more like I have a primeval talent in my sense of smell.

39:24And I can smell things I could never smell before. And maybe chemo awakens something in me. my sense of smell is I can smell I would be able to smell what's in the carpet or if if water was coming through the ceiling I could smell it I can smell what it's going to rain I can smell if someone's sick it's it's it's changed something has changed dramatically within me so you know feeling do I want to be successful I want to change the world again Rochelle I do and I want to be the best at what I do. And I don't care how hard I have to work, but I will do it and I will deliver. And I want to see, you know, Joe loves globally across the world.

40:07But what are my other five senses? What else could I do? Is it just about the sense of smell? I don't know. But you'll only know if you walk, if you, you know, walk towards your dreams and your vision. And I suppose your outlook must change. When you lose your sense of smell, and that's your sense of smell, like you say, is your golden ticket, is your niche. What did that do at the time for your identity? Because losing it so abruptly, but not knowing it would come back so abruptly, what does that do for Jo and Jo's confidence and your sense of self, I suppose? I lost my identity completely, completely.

40:46I found it harder walking away from a business with my name than I did fighting cancer. Now, I know that sounds bizarre, but that is my truth. I think because fighting cancer, I was fighting something for the person I knew I was. When I no longer had my name and I couldn't smell, I was nobody again. I lost all sense of value of myself. And how many times does this happen to people when they lose a job, they divorce, something happens in their life, they lose a spouse or they lose one of their children or something happens that's really traumatic to you. And that trauma starts to make you feel you are less of a person.

41:30And I started to travel down that road. And that was the first time I'd ever felt anxiety, like severe, compelling anxiety. and it still rears its head every now and again with me but not as much anymore because I had to go out and I had to find Jo and that was the reason I had to start again because if I didn't, who was I? Who was I ever going to be? And it wasn't about at that time building a huge global brand. It was about creating one fragrance in that very, very, very, could I do it again? Rebuilding you. It was completely rebuilding building. And I knew I couldn't go back to who I was. It was a very lonely place, actually, a very lonely place.

42:18But it was a place where I found this inner strength within me that I can feel right now, this strength and this belief that if I want to do something, the only one that can make it happen is me. It's no one else's responsibility. I was alive. I had the love of my husband, I had my beautiful little boy, and I still had opportunity. And opportunity is the key. This is the key to the entrepreneurial toolbox. It's the key to your future, your visions, opportunity. This is the key to education with children in school. If they don't get educated, they won't have these opportunities that I'm talking about.

42:57And that opportunity said to me, go do it again. Go fight. Go fight for what you believe. And I can honestly say today, I'm so glad I didn't quit. I'm so glad. I thought about being a hairdresser, going to work with animals. I love animals. I thought about going and working abroad in a conservation project with elephants. I thought of all sorts of things, but I knew I could do all of those things well, but the thing I can do like no one else in the world just create fragrance. No one can create it like me. So I would walk away from that gift for the rest of my life. And who would I end up being?

43:34And I feel like I've become younger. Honestly, I do. I don't feel I'm going to be 61 tomorrow. I don't feel 61. I feel in my 30s and 40s. And my dreams are so powerful, the things I visualize what I want. And then I go find it. I go find it, whether it's in the desert, whether it's down on beautiful Oman in the mountains, whether it's in the Saudi fields with the rose petals. I go find it and I make it and I grab hold of it and make it mine. It's the drive and the hunger. It's the drive and the hunger. When you say that you kind of, because hearing this, and to me, Jo Loves is so poignant for how it was born and your passion and finding you and going again.

44:25It's so special and so incredible that you kind of had the guts to do that. When you create something that's such a success, to go again and match it, I mean, it's just incredible. When you say that there are the mistakes that are made, that you've made more mistakes the second time round, how did they look? um by the way I see in your eyes a second and a third life I can see it yeah so I'll never stop I know that I can see it in your face as as much as you can see it in mine and when you see it in someone's face tell them just because it's a light isn't it it's it's um it's it's what keeps you up at night it's what gives you purpose it's what and I really identify with you when you're saying is it's me right and I kind of you feel purposeful you get up keeps you busy in the day I mean if I think if I sat on a beach the rest of my life I'd get into trouble I would because my my creativity keeps me keeps me busy and it keeps my mind busy it keeps me interesting and interested in other people and I think that again is is such an important part of humanity and and what we're doing what was your question you asked me before I well I'm just interested to know how those because you said it was it was quite risky at the time with Joe Loves and yet there were some mistakes that you didn't foresee or I ran straight back into the marketplace thinking I could pick up where I'd left off.

46:02Big mistake, huge mistake. The packaging, I got the packaging wrong. I wasted a million pounds on packaging that I hadn't thought correctly about. Yes, it was my own money, but that hurt. That hurt my pride. We set up, our first shop was in Selfridges. If you read the book that I've written, you'll see some of the pictures in the beginning. The packaging was awful. I mean, I can't, I don't even know what I was thinking. I wanted to be so different that it became so different and so not me. And it took me a while to find my way back, like sort of walking down a spiral staircase and keep going, keep going.

46:42And I found my way back to that. What else did I make? I didn't make mistakes with the fragrances. That was the only thing that I got right. And after about four or five years into it and opening Elizabeth Street in Pimlico, that's when the business really found her, she found her feet. Because businesses often go through like a child growing up, the birth of your child, it's very needy in the beginning, needs to be fed, it needs to be, then it goes through, you know, the first time they go off to school and you open in your shop, and you're not going to be there all day, you have to trust the teamwork.

47:15Then they go through their teenage years where they cut their hair short, something goes off. So if you look at that, and then they come to that point where they start to grow, and they look at you and they go, it's okay, I'm good, I got this one. And when I look at our stores in Malaysia, Philippines, China, Singapore, they go, we got this, Jo, it's okay. And I arrive and I feel tingly now. I feel like the mum and I see them grow and I'm so proud to see that. But the mistakes are important. Don't rule them out because those fragrances that I created in the beginning were the only thing I got right.

47:55But it was what people recognized. And six years on from that, I don't know whether you know I create for Zara. I do the Joe collections for Zara. I did not know that. Did you not like that? No. And that taught me that actually the Zara piece of business came at such a wonderful time, by the way. It really did. And there was a moment where I couldn't pay the wages. And I don't think I've ever admitted this. And again, it was really, really, really tight. And it was like, oh, my goodness. And suddenly this piece of business came in and it meant we were good for six months. And so I thought, OK, well, I'm going to learn from this.

48:32But I've got to step out of my own shoes and step into Zara's. And I've still got to be Joe. And so they took me on for three years and I did 42 fragrances for them. But what is so miraculous about this and also paid the wages and it got us through. And sometimes, you know what? you do have to take on another job when you've got a small business. You might have to do something else which you didn't anticipate at the time in order to get yourself through to the longer vision, the long-term vision. We took these beautiful fragrances into Zara. And then after three years, you know, it's like, oh, my time's up.

49:11No, I'm still with them today. And it's five, six years. I've never done this. And they're the Jo collection. I'll send you some. They're in these beautiful bottles. And they're now all over the world. But every time someone walks in, they say, where are the Joe fragrances? Now, my name's not on the front. Zara on the front. But it's my creativity. And I would explain to me. Sorry, I just need to go back in my brain. Because this would explain why Zara fragrances are now viral, right? Well, I don't do all of them. I don't do all of them. And when you're giving me that time frame, that would explain that, like, my friends, like, oh, this is Zara.

49:49Yeah, I've just connected the dots myself. You would love Vettive with Pamplemousse because it's very grapefruity. It's very, but there's lots of them and they're still in all the stores. When I go in, especially when I'm sort of traveling, I go and look at Azara, Katrina, and I go, oh, there they are. And I feel, I don't know, there is such a sense of pride there that I was able to step out of myself and be someone else. Yeah. And create for someone else and still deliver these fragrances. So I know that my creativity, that's the thing I have to focus on. That's the thing. I can't change the markets.

50:25I can't change share prices. I can't. But I can be responsible for my own creativity. And so, yeah, my entrepreneurial toolbox goes everywhere with me. I mean, you try and take it off you. Try. One thing I want to sort of get your advice, I suppose, steer on. And I hear this a lot. one of my friends, she has a successful business and, you know, it's her name, right? If you was going to advise, because, you know, Joe, Joe loves still your name. How do you feel about sort of navigating that and seeing past it? Perhaps, you know, if you're not necessarily thinking at the time about the bigger picture and the end goal, which means that you might not be there anymore.

51:13Yeah. How do you feel about what would your advice be to somebody else maybe starting out if they've got an option of names on the table, would your advice be to make it about you? I wish there was an easy answer to that. There's not an easy answer. I think there's pros and cons in everything and sacrifices in everything that we do. For me, if I hadn't called myself by my name, maybe I wouldn't be sitting here. Maybe there will be no brand. So there's no point looking back and thinking to myself, so if I sold my business again with my name, yes, I'd sell it differently. But so many entrepreneurs on their second and their third kind of go at something will say the same thing.

52:02They would have sold it differently. It's like a relationship. You'd always do something differently, wouldn't you? Yeah, and I think your name, you know, from Jill Sander to Bobby Brown, Tom Ford, Coco Chanel, Anik Goutal, you know I could go on Christian Dewar I mean look there were all their names and when you look back on the responsibility you have and it's it is a responsibility it will be like a child for the rest of your life how you respond my situation is bizarre and I found it quite a struggle so I am not allowed to hold a bottle of fragrance and call myself by my name you can call me anything you want.

52:46I am not allowed to do that. Now, that's what the law says. And I have to adhere to that. I don't believe it's right, if I'm really honest. And I believe the law needs to change because that is almost a long term non-compete. But in order for me to do what I love to do, I can only call myself Jo. Wow. I never dreamed I would even be in that situation, if I'm really honest. So I can use it privately. So if I go and book a hair appointment, I can be Jo Malone. Okay. If I was to invite you to dinner, your name place could say. But you're calling me that. Yeah, that's a private thing. But in business, in business.

53:28You're Jo. I'm Jo. But the only time I can use my name is actually from the BBC Maestro. So I'm able to say, my name is Jo Malone and this is my serious BBC Maestro. so you have to think about those things I'm not whinging I'm not moaning I don't need anybody calling me saying but you were paid a lot of money I know I know and I accept that but I think if you going back to your question if you are going to use your name you do need to think about the implications and you do need to think long term so there's all ways that you can carve out agreements especially if you have partners as well so it's not just a sellout or an acquisition what happens if somebody comes in and buys 30 % of your business?

54:11They own 30 % of your name. What happens if they take that name somewhere and you don't like what they're doing? If you haven't got something agreed in that agreement, in that contract, and this is, you know, people sign contracts all the time at the moment, read what it is you're signing. I mean, you must know that as well with all the things that you've done yeah and so your name is one of your greatest assets treat it as such treat it as though it's precious so um but people will continue to use their name joe i'll continue to use my name i can only be joe but that's good enough for me because my creativity will um shine forth i was on the um plane last night and i was watching the most amazing movie called Widow Clicquot.

55:00Have you seen it? Oh my goodness. I just cried because it's this wonderful entrepreneurial woman that lived hundreds of years ago. So Verve Clicquot Champagne. Yes. Her husband died and it's the story of how she picks up his legacy, the vines and how she bottles. She was one of the first women to create rosé champagne. It is the most incredible movie and she's taking all these little vessels and she's shaking the champagne and she's smelling it and I'm looking and I'm going that's me and at the end it says it it pays you know tribute to her that she was one of the great entrepreneurs you know what look and it was her name and at one point the only way that she could sell on the market was if she was married to another man so they're in a courtroom and this wonderful guy steps forward and he says um will you marry me she looks and she goes no she makes the champagne and she changes the world watch stories like that because I learned last night sitting on that plane thinking that was her name Clico yeah and they took they stripped her from everything she had and yet she still did not give up on that dream she would go she She would speak to the vines.

56:21She would sing to the vines. So inspiring. It was so inspiring. Oh, I'm adding that to my list. I'm adding that to my list. Right, I want to do something now which I find really fun. It's called the rocket round. So we like to chat. The idea is it's quick fire. Yes, okay, yeah. Which might be a problem for us. But there are some kind of questions that I want to ask every guest to get different outlooks on. So the first one would be, what are the non-negotiables for launching a business? Inspiration, innovation, integrity, instinct, ignition, 5i compass. Perfect. Next question. When did you first realise you truly launched?

57:11When did that light bulb go off and you thought, we've done it?

57:18I think opening the first door in Walton Street. When you open the door and a man walked in, offered me a million pounds to sell my business that day. Yep. Gosh, that'll do it. That'll do it. What do people usually seek your advice for?

57:38Inspiration. definitely to be inspired to inspire a room and uh just my i always say to people i'm not good at mentoring which i'm not but i'll open a door for you what door do you want open so it's finding out the door that they need to open in order to move on oh that's lovely what brand do you wish that you had founded coco chanel that came too quickly didn't it that was it that was already you there it was yeah Coco Chanel definitely if you could choose I love this one if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be um I think I'm gonna have to have Diane Fossey she worked with gorillas and conservation and I love I learn more from animals about leadership in business than I do from people oh that's what that's so that's special okay lastly if you could trade one of your current skills for a superpower that would help your business what would it be and why oh Rochelle that is such a good question uh for a superpower I'd like to be invisible.

58:52So I would trade, what would I trade? Touch. I trade, touch I would trade to be invisible and to sit in some of those meetings when they come out the other side and say, well, we've all agreed. And it's like, no, you didn't because I was sitting there. I was invisible today. That's a good one. I like to be invisible, yeah. Drift in and out. That's good. This is obviously a space for female empowerment, you know, helping, advising, tangible bits of information, which is what I know you do so well. if you could leave a tip and we're doing this with every guest and I think it's so nice talking to so many different incredible women that have launched businesses or launched something incredible and getting one piece of tangible advice from them if you could give one piece of something really special to somebody that's looking to launch what would that piece of advice

59:59be um this is such a i'm thinking of somebody i'm talking to at the moment i think the only one that can make your dreams happen is you but you're not alone because there's many that have walked the path um and surround yourself with people that believe in you and will tell you the truth as well and I think that balance between believing in yourself and hearing how other people see you is can sometimes be a great motivator but if you're going in the wrong direction you need to hear that too yeah good team always it starts with team well I think it starts with friends actually you know what your your friend the people you surround yourself I mean Katrina is We travel the world together and Katrina will pull me up and I'll pull her up.

1:00:55But, you know, don't get moody about it. Don't get upset. Move on. Take it in the spirit that it was given. And I think as women, we need to support and help one another. We don't need lots of coffee mornings. But if there's something you can do, do it. Absolutely that. It costs you nothing to be kind. to someone else. One thing that I've heard you say before, and I thought this was so, which is kind of all encompassing what you're saying now. And I thought this is such a brilliant idea. Is it the pizza boardroom? That's nearly what I said. Yeah. Explain the pizza boardroom. So the pizza boardroom is in the course as well, how to put together the pizza boardroom.

1:01:38So often we will be in a point in our business where you can't afford to have a whole team, but you've probably got eight, 10 really good friends. And one of them is very arty. One of them's great with numbers, works for a bank and whatever. So create your own boardroom for one evening. Buy two pizzas, a couple of bottles of wine, do 20 questions about your business, send them to them a week in advance and create your own pizza boardroom and see how other people, because often what is very obvious to other people is not obvious to us because we're so close to it. We're looking so intently. We've lost the frame of the big picture.

1:02:23So pizza boardroom is great. And we do a pizza boardroom with, we create the whole kind of scene and cost you a pizza, a couple of bottles of wine. And you've got your board. You've got your board for an evening. Fantastic. I love that. I think that is absolutely brilliant. Lastly, because I said I'd do this with every guest, a little bit of fun, but mainly because I'm nosy. I promised myself when I did this, that the idea is that our listeners will listen to this in their lunch hour, right? Oh, yes. So you're here to inspire them today during their lunch hour. But when it comes to, we've spoke about you being a lady who launched.

1:03:07When it comes to ladies who lunch, How do you spend your lunch hour? What do you eat? Where are you? Are you at a desk? Do you go out? Do you make an effort? Do you walk? What is, how does Jo's lunch hour look? Okay, everyone's going to be very envious now what I'm going to say. So I have my blue office. So my blue office in Dubai is I look onto water. And that, whenever I look onto water, I'm creative. So I love a Gotham salad, which is a chopped salad. um ice cold water if it's a friday i'll have a glass of white wine or maybe two um and i sit under the trees and i sit with my notebook and my um notes and i will work so i work through lunch but i'll be smelling and um i'm quite happy on my with my own company and if ever you're in dubai and you see me sitting under the trees just come and sit down with me and smell with me You're going to regret saying this.

1:04:05I'm right there. I want this blue office. I'm coming to lunch. I love my blue office. Thank you so much. Thank you. I've really enjoyed this. This is, you were on my vision board for guests and I'm so pleased that you could join us. Well, thank you. Thank you. Can I just ask one thing? that an entrepreneurial toolbox needs to be taught in our schools for children. And I just did an assembly for 350 children in Dubai. So I love going and doing assemblies. I've never been so scared as kids, because kids can't hold their attention for very long. But please, I've asked this before. I've asked this country, please, to think about it.

1:04:48I'm told every time it is not part of the national curriculum. My son now is part of the national curriculum as a teacher. And I said, is there room for it? And he said, mum, there's not just room for it. There's the greatest need in the world for it. So whoever is listening to this, I don't have to be the author of this. Someone else do it. But please, our children are worth more than we are giving them in state schools at the minute. I couldn't agree with you more. And anything I can do, by the way, personally, to jump on with you and support you with this. I'm equally so passionate about this.

1:05:21and I can handle, I've got a handle on what I do in my own house, but it needs to, as you say, spread far and wide. And I think it's really important for the kids that aren't necessarily, and you will obviously relate to this, that aren't, you know, that are maybe struggling their way through school, but actually their creativity is something they have to do outside of school because it's not kind of... It's the key. It's the key that will unlock it for them and it will give them a sense of empowerment and belonging. And so what if they don't go to university? I didn't. Did you? No. I have zero qualifications.

1:05:59Zero. We have to equip them with something else. Anyway, that's my ask. I'm with you. I'm ready to jump on the train with you. So, yeah. We might have to start in Dubai. Yeah. That is okay with me, Jo. That is okay with me. Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:06:21She was just so brilliant. I love her so much. And I learned so many things about her that I didn't know already. And I have to say, I think she is one of the most positive women I've ever met in my life. I hope you enjoyed that. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked it, follow us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. and we'll see you next time with another incredible lady who launched