From Launch to SpaceNK in 3 years: Behind the Growth of Mimétique

0:00Today I'm joined by Fabienne Sebaoun, founder of Mimoteek, a cosmetic chemist who created one of beauty's most talked about emerging brands. All built around one bold belief that skin works best when you work with it, not against it. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

0:26i'm so pleased to see you i'm so pleased that you've made your way ever from paris to come and visit us today thank you for having me um i want to talk about everything from you know the brand well i discovered the brand when you launched in space in k a year ago And instantly I was like, I'm not sure what the brand is and who founded this, but I'm really interested visually, you know, from the formulas, everything, you know. So I kind of I'm really excited to deep dive into it with you today. Thank you. I want to talk about how you grew up, because I think it kind of feels a little bit like, well, of course, this was the path that you were going to take because of your upbringing and your parents and what they did.

1:10So tell us a little bit about that and what your parents did. Yeah. So first, I have to say, I'm very excited to be on this podcast, but I feel like your intern. I listened to so many hosts. I love this. Like Emma Greed and Jo Malone. And I was so inspired. And I'm like, me? I launched two years ago and now it's me. So do you know, absolutely you. A, you've launched with a splash and with a bang. but b i think it's so important to talk to founders at different points yeah in their journeys because we can all learn so much from each other and i feel like there's always one thing that we really do have in common and that's like the tenacity and the willpower to keep going when it all goes yeah yeah no matter what stage you are in the journey yeah um yeah so thanks i love that you listen yes I loved it so my childhood so I was born in a dermatologist family I am very very inspired by one person specifically it's my aunt she's a dermatologist and she does everything about dermatology in the most honest way when someone comes she can stay for more than an hour look at your body look at every mole and then of course she jumps on you know aesthetics but later she's on this human quest and I was fed by it I was never under the sun obsessed with skin and I tried all derma cosmetics I could find you know because all labs came to visit them yes so I got older brand and I got the chance to try them all and see all innovations and it was quite a blast.

3:01I mean that is like it's so lucky to have that I suppose that knowledge from such a young age and being a sponge around that environment and really sort of soaking it all up it's the opposite to what we're taught I remember being taught to like sit in the sun the sun's great for you you know if you've got bad skin go and sit in the sun it'll be amazing and now we're all trying to hide from it like now I as soon as I sort of you know I suppose in my late 20s early 30s that's that's when I knew that some was actually damaging and we should all be hiding under the brolly you know and now that's my life so to know that is a great head start to have yeah having that sort of background I'm being a dermatologist and having that sort of those daily conversations did it make you more curious or was it always something that was a because I think of my children now I wonder if they'd be they'd grow up to be curious about what I do or because they've sort of always consumed it and they understand the life that I live is it really interesting or would they kind of rebel against that yeah I think it's a very interesting question I think being raised into these conversations make you very sensitive to it I was also super interested about what's beauty, what makes you feel beautiful and feel good in your skin.

4:25And it was all about this intricate conversation that were fascinating me. But I didn't want to be a doctor. I was quite disgusted. When I saw all the pictures, you know, oh, look, I had to cure this small and this was a cancer yes yes so I couldn't do it but still there was something that was appealing I didn't know why but yeah and when you kind of when you're at school when you were studying was that kind of apparent that you were gonna follow in their footsteps or go like you say a certain part of it yeah kind of repulsed you a little bit and that wasn't for you but was it clear that you're kind of I don't know how you was gonna sort of start on your own journey was it clear that you that was going to be a part of it so I think science medicine science was something for me that's why chemistry came to me in a very natural way I wouldn't go to being a doctor because this wasn't my thing but being close to cosmetics and from what I saw was the best way for me to go into something that was close to my universe yes close to skin and yeah and close to science because that was my route at the end that was yes yeah yeah I don't even know how to say this so this is really humbling tell me I want to talk about bio but biomimicry yes okay so I don't even know how to say it let alone know what it is Yeah.

6:02So I want to I want you to explain sort of if you was going to explain this to your best friend, because I'm so interested in the fact that you're so well versed in the science and the chemistry aspects. You look worried, but I'm like this. You're talking to someone that knows. No, no, I'm going to make it super simple. So if you could make it super simple, tell us a little bit about it, how you discovered it and the moment that everything clicked for you. Yeah. So I worked for big brands. And in 2015, I moved to Canada with my family. I had two small children and my husband had to move for work.

6:38And I was listening to what was happening in the industry. And it was all about banning ingredients, fear mongering. We got, you know, lots of influencers telling this ingredient is not good. So at the time I was working for a beautiful brand and they were telling me, you have phenoxyethanol and silicones and that's not right. And me as a scientist and knowing that my parents would use, for instance, silicones to treat people that have burnt, I was like, come on, that's not clear. I don't understand where we're going. And I felt the need to go back to school. Wow. So when we came back during COVID in Paris, I went to university.

7:23I was almost 40. I was the eldest one. I love that. I love it so much. That's incredible. I really wanted to go back to the roots and to understand what skin needs, what it will absorb, and then what we can do with our formulas. But if we just start with the skin anatomy and what we can do with it, then I'll have my answers. Yes. And this was so logic, you know, with my history, my own, you know, trajectory from my family, everything clicked. So 40 years old at school with all young people, I was like, OK, but I really knew what I wanted to do. How did you feel going into that environment? Because like you say, sometimes that can be a little bit intimidating.

8:12But on the flip side, you're grown, you know yourself in your 40s. You know, when you look at like 20 year olds, of course, you've got a lot of growing and a lot of self-discovery. Did you feel intimidated going back in that environment or did you feel like this is where I'm supposed to be? This is what I want to do. It's quite a brave thing to do. I remember my mom doing that and she went back and she was like, God, I'm the oldest in the class. But I found it so inspiring, you know. Yeah. So as you said, you have so much experience. You know what you're looking for. But still, I didn't know because I was exploring, but I was super excited.

8:48And I felt so mature compared to all these people that were there, but they didn't really know why they were there. So I felt like it was a privilege for me. You know, when you're young and you're at university, you have to go. But here, it was a choice. And I was like, oh, my God. It wasn't for anyone else. It was for you. It was for me. So you're there. So you're sort of in this kind of, I suppose, discovery moment. Tell us about sort of what unraveled. So what happened is that I had a biochemistry teacher that spent 25 years old at SkinCeuticals. and we were talking about skin and he said if you want to innovate you need to get back to the living organ the skin you need to understand how it works and then you can find you know the right ways to formulate so that was and I said okay so what and when you look at biomimicry or biomimetics it's super simple you get inspired by nature for everything you get inspired by birds to make planes you get inspired by I don't know many different things for architecture for um even for scuba diving you get inspired by shark shark skin so everything comes from nature yeah you're so right I never looked at it like that and and I discovered that there are like big um um sorry like um how do you say meetings about biomimicry like people meet and they say look we can do this inspired by nature this inspired by flowers so it was a new universe for me okay okay and then he told me so okay so if you have this if you give to your skin the exact same ingredient it contains it will recognize them absorb them and know what to do with them and I was like wow this is so basic but this is so true yes it's like a bit of a light bulb moment right Yeah.

10:53But I was like, OK, now I need proofs. I need to understand if this is not bullshit. Yeah. It could be. It could be a great story. So this was my moment. You know, I really felt like there was something. And then I reached out to this university and they said, could we do some testings? And they said, it's going to take long. So I went to the chef of cosmetology called AgroParisTech in Orleans. I called them. I told them about this. I was super excited. I said, listen, we can do something. We can test these ingredients. You need to choose the ingredients. And this is where I made the complex. So the complex that is proprietary, like we're patent pending, that we have in our products.

11:42So it's five different ingredients, skin identical. So the ingredients you have in your skin that we put in the formulas. and we tried them all together. A complex, you need to see if the five ingredients work in synergy. Right. So we put them on skin cells and on EpiSkin. It's your epidermis and dermis, not your hypodermis, which is your fat, but the two first layers. And there's your collagen, your blood, everything, all the disgusting stuff that you don't want to see. And we started testing. And honestly, I didn't want to launch a brand. I just wanted to know about science. Wow. That's the, you know, the kind of obsessive and weird side of me.

12:24So interesting. So this was just for your own knowledge. This was for you to just kind of find out the answers. Yeah. And crack the code. Crack the code. Crack the skin code. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe seven months after he called me and he said, there is something. So what we did is that we put all the cells in culture and they were purple. And when we saw them replicate, there were more cells, more purple cells. So we were looking at the microscope. And then when they called me, said there's plus 28 % pro-collagen one. It's huge. You should think about formulating something with this complex.

13:02And then I was in front of myself. So what should I do? And I decided to formulate four products. Self-funded because, same, I just wanted to give the proofs That I would make good products. You know, I won't be able to raise if my brand is not working, you know. And I formulated the four products. I went to Le Bon Marché. Yes. With my vials. Oh, my gosh. No way. And like, what did you just, what, cold? Did you turn up or had it been something that's planned? So, you know, it's LVMH. And I used to work for Guernon. Yes. So, I just said, hi. Well, actually, we should touch on that before we carry on.

13:42Because you say that you work for some big brands. We're talking like huge brands. You're being very modest here. We're talking about Le Mans, Golan. You know, we're talking about the top, the creme de la creme of brands, which is just incredible. So you sort of, I suppose, tapped into your contacts to see what the feeling was, right? I'm formulating this. Yeah, I just said, could I come and see you with my... And I sent a few pictures and she said, oh, interesting. Come and meet me. it was May and you know in May in Paris you have super long weekends yeah never work gorgeous we need a bit more of that so I came to her with my advice she said oh I've never seen such packaging that's cool and she went away with my products and she came back on the weekend said I want to launch November but I said listen I'm self-funded I haven't launched any production these are just my lab this was just for you to see if you like it yeah and she said okay november are you ready we have um they have a beautiful salon upstairs we'll have five brands you'll be able to showcase and we'll see and we'll launch the brand bye see you november i was like okay oh my gosh i always say on this podcast in life we're often presented with these moments that are like I just need to say yes yeah and figure it out exactly afterwards yeah and then you go yes absolutely I'd love to launch in November and then you get home and you're like shit yeah okay we're launching what am I going to do so was that was that one of those moments it was one of those moment I was moving so it was like you know you always children my children you always have more than one thing yeah of course happening of course never it's life so what was your first call that you made when you're like okay this now needs to happen there's interest here it's May I've got to November to bring this to life what was where did you start what was the first place so I called my factory because I had my you know my vials and my ingredients and I had so many proprietary ingredients that I wasn't able to see if someone would follow me with very small quantities to launch such a specific brands because the hardest thing right yes they want big volumes when you're when you're working with these factories.

16:02And I suppose when you've got a launch, you don't want to take a risk. If you're self-funded, you don't want to say, okay, give me 10 ,000 units of risk. It's a gamble. Who's going to buy 10 ,000 creams? Of a brand new brand that they've not heard of. No one knows. Yes. Just me and my lab. So I called him and he said, listen, you have very specific ingredients we're not using for the brands we're working for. Right. And I had all the intellectual properties. Sometimes they do white labeling, you know. So they take margin every step of the way for the formula. And then they take different ingredients that they could use for many different brands.

16:43But I was the weirdo in the room. So I have all these ingredients you don't know and these complex. And now you need to order. So I said, OK, 3 ,000 pieces per skew. I had four. I was like, OK. Oh my gosh. And I said, I was so excited. I said, okay, now I'm more than 40. It's now or never. Just do it. Yes. And also sometimes you almost need that like do or don't moment. Yeah. This is the thing that's going to. Just decide. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just go for it. Even if it's scary. But we often talk about that. Those moments that you need are actually sometimes the most terrifying moments of all.

17:21It is terrifying. But you need to push through that for yourself, right? It is super terrifying. but so exciting at the same time you know yes so you so you press go you say okay three thousand per skew per skew you've got four skews it then instantly comes with a lot of responsibility yeah then what happens from there do you build out a team or is this really still quite no a small because i launched at le bon marché alone right doing everything One day I was doing animation because, you know, when you launch a product, it won't sell by itself. No one knows about your art. So I was there every weekend talking to my customers and trying to understand what they wanted, if they really liked the formula and what they were looking for.

18:13And that day around this big table, someone came to me, Lucy, she's my first hire. And she's still with me now looking at marketing. and she came to me and she said, I love your brand. I want to work with you. I'm like, I don't know if tomorrow I'm going to be still there, but if you want to freelance, come. Perfect. Yeah. And that's how I build it step by step. And this is the choice I made. I couldn't feel comfortable to go to an investor and say, just trust me, these are great formulas. Yes. I couldn't figure out, you know. Also, I think when we focus on kind of, people say oh you need to hire fast yeah everyone's got a different view on this yes and I think the world of freelance is such a beautiful space and I think it can be really hard to be a freelancer you know work can be all or nothing right and it's really kind of it does that I think yeah for small businesses to make a start freelancers are so important because it's the best you you know you need support of course but you don't you've not necessarily got the cash flow or the funds or need that responsibility and that pressure of having this team so early on.

19:26Yeah. It's so interesting because people talk about hire fast and it sounds like we've got to have this big office and hire these people on money that we don't have. You don't have. Yeah. So I really wanted to make it in the old way. I will just build a healthy business. Step by step. Step by step. Yes. So I did one-to-ones with lots of journalists. And one day I got Le Figaro and they went to interview the buyer and they made a huge paper on Mimetic. And I got like 40k sales on my website. I was like, oh, it's a lot. You know, nothing was happening. So I was very impressed. And then I saw that the brand was starting to, you know, people were talking about it, about the quality.

20:13And I think that the mission of the brand, we will mimic your skin to unlock its full potential. It's simple and people understand it. Yes, yes. When it comes to sort of branding and like, you know, having for people to recognize you and instantly sort of be able to stand out in the crowd and people understand who you are. It is that it's having that simplicity and the kind of brand story that people instantly go, OK, I get it. We're mimicking our skin and it makes perfect sense to me. No one's really, there's not been that language before. I don't think so in the skincare space. I've not heard that as messaging.

20:55But when it comes to sort of being a new brand, being able to be like, sort of have a presence in a market that is so crowded and is so oversaturated. Some might say, others might say it's a booming market. That's what I believe. I agree. do you think it is that simple you need to have the story that that sort of you have that point of difference instantly yeah I think it's very important but it's not enough as you said it's such a saturated saturated market you have L 'Oreal and all these big brands that have tons of budgets and you're coming in this room like they're all making a lot of noise and how are going to sell your product i think it's a little about everything it's the quality of the product people need to come back to buy the product so you have to make the best product ever and if you don't know how to make it if you cannot make it better better not to launch it because you will be you know eaten by the others and you only get one chance yeah and so sort of like you say it's sometimes it's not the first sale that's the hardest it's getting people back through the door and why do they want to come back?

22:07The formula has to be great. The brand has to be great. And the branding and the message and the founder. And, you know, it's a lot. But the 360 has to be there. You have to be in the great spot. I think Le Bon Marché, I think Space NK. We launched at Violet Grey a few weeks ago. We're doing amazing. So, you know, you have also to choose where you're going to be the perfect match for you. Yes, where is it going to sit? Where is it going to live? Who your customer is? there's a whole big picture here yeah what do you kind of hope for the future because when remind me you launched when two years and a half ago it's yeah it's really a year ago here and it's crazy the kind of I think what is clear to me when I think of the brand is how I see it and instantly think that it's a trusted brand yeah which is such a kind of I suppose a huge compliment because you're so the brand is in its infancy still yeah the fact that I see it and think okay this feels like this brand knows what it's talking about and I see that even by the look and feel of I was saying to you before we started recording the look and feel of the product is what I saw first I didn't know about the formulas I got sent a gorgeous bundle from Space NK last year and thought well what is this and I think I'm happy like you say you need the full picture it's the creative yeah how heavily involved were you in the creative very so I couldn't go to a big agency I knew them you know the one that ask you for 100k to make the best brandings and you see these brand in the US they look amazing or even I was looking at Leslie David she did the branding for Glossier she's French and there was like massive budget so I couldn't do So I was looking at the people who were working for these big agencies and from which school they were coming from.

24:05Smart. And I discovered Penningen. It's like in Saint-Germain, in the heart of Saint-Germain. And it's the best art school. So I went to the open doors, Port Overt, and I met with a lot of, you know, students. And I chose three. And I said, ladies, are we going to do the branding? yeah you know it's all scrappy that is so but that is so smart but i had the vision i knew what i wanted to do it was like the french pharmacy new generation you know i love the biaffine i love the exomédine these were my you know my things and going into a french pharmacy buying you know i love nothing more than a french pharmacy you go and you buy avenel arroche posay and I love all these brands.

24:51It was like a love declaration to this brand, but with a new twist. But still going back to science and you have your tubes, it's perfectly hygienic, it's 100 % recyclable, you don't put your finger inside and it's super light. Yes. So you have the best of the two worlds. It's so funny because now you're explaining to me that that was your brief and that's your design brief to the designers. wow they 11 out of 10 11 out of 10 from then that is like that's exactly what how I see it it really does give that expert-led French pharmacy but with a modern edge that's exactly what I would see when I look at it I mean incredible and that is such a is such an important point and such an interesting smart approach because we often talk on this podcast we talk a lot about being in the startup phase and how scrappy that you have to be like it isn't being the ceo of a startup is so unsexy yeah you're doing everything it's horrible you're you know you're every role you're you don't have the sort of capability to have this big huge operation behind you but to sort of be approaching those kind of the students at that level that also would really enjoy getting their teeth stuck into a project as such because this is kind of what they're doing this is they want they need to build that cv and it's kind of helping you helping them giving them that level of trust that's what i did you know because then huge founders in the u.s came to me that i met after and they were asking me who's your so i send them and i still work with the one that does the packaging and my retailers were asking so now they are they're booming and I'm so happy that I could contribute to their success.

26:44But also I think for them that means although that suited you at the start because of funds and so on and so forth for them trust is such a huge thing yeah and you know being trusted to bring a sort of premium brand to life for them is is is such a huge compliment right yeah what what would you say are the do's and don'ts when launching something in this space particularly because you're kind of I mean the success for you is you know over the last three and a half years has really been like this even yes um or that's the way that it's looked on the outside what would you say would be the do's and don'ts for launching something new in today's sort of landscape as a founder or yeah yeah so i think you need to have the vision as we said you know from debris from everything you need to know where you want to go and then we're having more and more people in the team you really need to be super clear the do's you need to work hard a lot non-negotiable Non-negotiable.

27:54You need to be excellent and better than that. Yeah. The don't, I think I will come back to what you said. Don't listen to too many people because many people will have a different advice. But deep down, you have the gut and you know what's good for your brand, your baby. I really feel like it's my third child. I have two. I feel it when I leave it on the side and when it's not the right decision. It's almost, you know, like animal feeling. Yes, yeah. You can't sort of fight it, can you? Yes. So once I listened to someone who told me, you need to launch fast and test and test fast. And sometimes it doesn't apply.

28:45so you have to be I think you need to cultivate your uniqueness because in this space it's so crowded if you're not unique you're like the other ones and you're dead yes yes and you have to be sure of what you want to do yeah when we talk about like you know growing the team and so on and so forth you literally started as a one-man band and you were had that freelance approach how does your sort of setup look now in terms of team yeah so now we're more than 10 and I'm hiring four more people in September well and how's that process been because we talk so much about hiring and like it's obviously a great milestone for you the fact that you've got to the point where the business is growing in such a way that yeah you know you need to keep hiring that onboarding process is quite difficult right because super difficult the job has to run you have to find the right people yeah but meanwhile everything else still has to happen whilst teaching somebody about you know what it is that you do how do you find that process particularly starting in the way that you have and it's just been you and has that been a bit of a sort of challenge for yourself to sort of give away pieces of the pie and give away control yeah I think this is the most difficult part because I didn't know anything about that I've never been an entrepreneur.

30:07I just knew about my formulas. And then I was like lost in this new space. So what I learned is that people is the most beautiful thing and the most difficult thing. Yeah. So now you need to deal with it. And having the vision to onboard them and make them successful because this is what I wanted to do. And oftentimes that's what I ask when I have their previous boss or when I ask for recommendation I'm like what's the best way to put them in the position of success if they will be successful mimetic will be successful and now that we're more than 10 I need to start processing you know and this is for me a new universe and also being like leading people and knowing like yeah I'm kind of super shy you know yeah and you have to find this sort of well because because she's in there yeah but of course you have to unlock that other part of yourself that that I suppose feels really comfortable to have those conversations and have those meetings and say when things aren't right and you're not happy with something and it didn't go the way that you'd hope exactly it's a really as a founder do you find that quite lonely I don't that doesn't sit well with me naturally as a person so I have to really kind of I always say put on my big girl pants to have those conversations and I think but I think sometimes that's okay because all of those conversations can happen with love yeah but for me it's not somewhere that I instantly feel comfortable it's not a comfortable place now yes yeah I feel a lot more comfortable than obviously I did, you know, years ago.

31:50But yeah, practice, they say makes perfect. It's definitely not perfect yet, but we're getting there. How has that been for you as a founder? And do you, yeah, how does it sit with you? Same thing. It's really difficult. I think I don't like conflicts. And I really, you know, when you have such a small team, you're not like a family because you don't like to say that. And a family is weird, but you're very close. You live together. So you have this relationship that you won't have at L 'Oreal or Estee Lauder. So when I'm in this difficult conversation like you, I'm almost shaking. Yes. But I know that I have to go through it.

32:32So I do it. But I'm like, these are one of my worst days. Yes. You know? Yeah. And it's something that I think it takes self-work from the founder to be able to kind of get comfortable in those spaces. Because all of a sudden you're passionate about something. You're passionate about formulas. You're passionate about skincare. Then all of a sudden you're managing people. And you're not good at everything. And you're not good at everything. Hang on, I'm good at formulas. Yeah, just leave me alone. But it becomes part of what you do. Of the game. Yeah. You know what I realized is that I don't want to be the bottleneck of everything.

33:13So you need to know where you're good at and you need to let go. Just give the right directions to the people who are experts. Yeah. So I keep obviously the formulas, but I have someone with me now. I keep all the artistic direction because I know where I want to go. I keep the innovation and science. Yes. But the rest, I'm sure someone doing influence and social media, they're better than me, like a thousand times better than me. But I know what's my brand and finding the right people who can help me cultivate this uniqueness. They need to understand for real what's my brand. And I feel like it's the most difficult thing.

33:52Yeah. Sometimes, you know, they compare me to another brand. I'm like, so, you know. You're like, sorry, what? Yes. Yeah. No, that's not what we're doing here. This is, we are us. And I think that's the I think that's the hardest thing that a lot of female founders will say is that. Hiring the right or like working with the right people, whether you're doing it in a freelance capacity or, you know, you're hiring and you're employing and you're building out the team for, you know, more sort of a permanent structure. it's so hard as a founder to expect people that you work with to care about your business in the way that you do because this is yours this is your kind of this is the seed of an idea that you had in your head this is your baby this is your world yeah so you can't it's almost kind of I suppose it's just not right as a founder for you to expect that everyone would care in the same way that you do right that's not going to happen no but you hope they understand the passion and they feel as excited about it or I think it's such a hard balance to strike isn't it because it's almost like you can't expect too much that's ridiculous you know but equally you kind of want them to be on the same journey with you so it's a really it's a really hard sort of push and pull and then remembering of course you know we don't expect them to be as passionate as us because this isn't theirs yeah but I want them to be on this ride with me so it's a really hard hard position to be in what would you say are kind of the hopes for for the business and for the brand in the future where would you like to be if we sat down the next five years how would you like this conversation to go so obviously for science my future is keen so knowing more about that creating more complex and expanding in the world it's not creating more products it's as i thought you're creating more complex and understanding more uh try to reach as many people as i can and you know launching in the uk i discovered a new market yeah and it's a tough market it's completely different audience but i think every market you cross over into right you always have to really you have to get your head around how it works and what that consumer wants it's another journey all again right just when you think you've nailed it like we have it here like we launched I launched my children's brand in the Middle East and I'm like it's a completely different customer yeah you know and I'm I feel like I understand exactly what I'm doing and how it works and what they like and then you launch somewhere else and you're like no this isn't this is forget everything we know yeah let's go again yeah that's the thing so I feel like there's so much to do and it's so exciting that yeah yeah the world's your oyster I did a podcast with a lovely lady called Nicola recently, who is the founder of Neom, Neom Candles.

36:49And she is incredible. And she said such an interesting point. And I now thought, actually, I should probably change the way that I have these conversations, because she said we often focus on like what we want to achieve. And often that looks like just the business. so that often will look like we want to launch in this many countries and I'd love to have this many SKUs and I'd love to you know be doing this in turnover and so on and so forth but we actually forget about how we want to feel as the founder when we're in that position and I was like do you know what god that is such an interesting point because she said I've never sort of been there's this kind of like new age conversation of we need to raise this capital because we want to do this and we want to hit this and she said actually she does a lot of work with founders and she says a lot of the time when we get there and we raise this money there's this other pressure that we didn't know about and we felt like the goal was just to raise raise raise so we could hit hit these moments but actually that comes with all of these targets and now there's sort of someone standing over us and there's pressure when we get there so should actually I'm now sort of so interested in how you want to feel as a founder on year five or year six or year ten yeah rather than interesting and it's it's so interesting so like of course sometimes we focus on these goals and they're actually outside and it's for us actually a lot of to feel accomplished for everyone else's story where actually how do I want to feel how does success look like to me like yeah is that that I want to be doing the school run with my children three times a week or is it that I want to be dropping them to dance class once like success to me has really changed my idea of it like and what that means for the brand has since you've launched and since the business has grown at quite a quick scale it's been slow and steady to launch but in the last few years you know you've kind of you've done incredibly well of getting the brand out there what does success now look like to you and how do you think you want to feel as a founder you know in that position I love this question you know what I feel like from the day I launched I learned more than any time even when I was younger you know I think that this is such an interesting learning curve about myself yes and you learn more about yourself through the people you hire or through the things you do and your resilience thanks to entrepreneurship and that's why I have someone who is also helping me that I'm seeing every week you know to challenge my ideas so what was your question I suppose is your idea of success change as the business yes that's the thing and also what I want to say is that I think I chose a very tough route without raising zero capital.

39:47I think it was really difficult. And then when you grow and everybody's looking at you like, wow, she's growing so fast. What's her problem? But the growth, when it's really high, it's a growth crisis. so it's hard and it's painful for us but you cannot say that you're suffering because you're having so much success but it's so difficult you know yeah and it's a point that we don't talk about and it's exactly that like fast growth is incredible and we hear so much about it but being in it when it's happening yeah well it just you have to move with it and it's not of course it's something that you want and it's something you're excited by for the business you wanted that but it doesn't mean it's easy no yeah it's horrible so what I can say is that it's been two years I'm working a lot and what I would love to is that settle a team that could you know help me to live a little more you know yes yeah because it's it's a lot on one person when you're a solo founder it's a lot of one person I feel and I think we obviously we talk about how overused the word balance is because no one's got it particularly when you're a parent and you've got a business and you're trying to we I'm like we've on this podcast we've decided that we're changing the word from balance to blend okay because balance is is is something we're all searching for and none of us have got it and I think never it seems like the non-existent thing right and I think the idea of it being a blend and you know this is how yeah we do it and we're you know we're sometimes we're up here sometimes we're down here but the blend is what we're after not the balance because it's just like it it's up or down isn't it and you're even flying in business and you feel bad that you've not been home enough or you're home a lot and you've not been present at work so it it's just you can't have it all but we can blend the two together and somehow find a happy marriage in the end that's that's what i believe i like it um i want to do our rocket round now which is well you listen to the podcast so you'll know this this is the um our quick fire it's supposed to be a quick fire round but we always elaborate and it always goes on more than it's supposed to we ask each guest the same questions so the first one is what do you believe are the non-negotiables for running a business?

42:17Vision, work, and don't take a failure for something you won't find a solution for. Failure is the best learning. Yes, that's good. Three things. I like that. There's always a solution for failure in the end. Always. You're right, you're right. Next one is, when did you first realize that you truly launched? so le bon marché was something um i guess when we got the prix d 'excellence marie claire yeah i felt like something was happening it was this year in february people are really sort of getting this now yeah they want it yeah that feeling yeah it's and i always find those moments are always so interesting because sometimes it'll be people saying it was when my grandma said somebody told her about it and she was like I didn't care what happened you know in business but I'm like the fact that she knows we must do that's the thing I love it what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed so I think I'm really bad on you know routine and I always listen to podcasts and they do pilates and stuff I'm so French I can drink three coffees yes then maybe i would go to pilates twice a week but maybe yes yes if you're having a good week that's it when i go to bed i do my skincare this is the thing i take everything from the lab i do half face it's like almost i have you know the coats replacing the wardrobe yes like the bath robes and doing half face and do experiments on my face oh i love that yeah so that's so that's the time that you do those testing is before bed before bed oh amazing yeah and then i could eat tons of chocolates oh lovely what's your favorite chocolate um do you know la mer de famille you need to come visit but it sounds like i'm gonna love it yeah and slack also yes okay okay um one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to what we said it's um test fast launch fast I launched my eye contour in France only.

44:29And the first version, I put caffeine and I got micro crystals in the formula. So it was a huge fail. Right. So I took everything back. Right. And then I reformulated it. And you know, the eye contour, it's so complicated. You have to decongest. You have to smooth. You have to tighten. And it was. And the second formula is my best seller. Wow. Voilà. You see? You see? And that goes back to your point that it doesn't mean that there's not a solution for failure. And that's so important because you can feel ashamed. You can say, I did this so badly. I cannot do it better. But there's always a solution.

45:05You win because you learn. Yes. So, so true. What's a skill that you'd love to learn? It could be outside of business. Yeah, I think just to be less stressed out and zoom out. Yeah. You know, I cannot say I started from here. Now I'm there. Congratulations, Fabienne, you did well. No, I never do that. I never do that. I'm like always like thinking and what should I do? And come on, are you crazy? Just stop and try to enjoy. yeah it's hard isn't it and it's so hard when you're in the doing like we always talk about this you know when you've achieved something and you're like right I want to get to this many sales and then it happens and then you're like okay now we're gonna and it always becomes the next yeah sort of target when actually because enjoy that's the thing and because you have your vision okay so we did that let's go yes what's the next thing what's the next is being a bit more sort of present in the in the winds yeah yeah I think we could all take that advice couldn't we um what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started that my talent is not enough that I needed to grow a great team and I think I started to find the right people a little too late so I took a lot a lot on myself but this is a great learning to yes yes yeah you need to be sure of what you're looking for to find the right person and till you don't know you can't yeah yeah very fair what would be the dream collab for the brand so you know we're doing um backstage hermes fashion shows yes with our skin restores it's actually their makeup base oh my gosh but it's not a pet collab we discovered it because the artistic director Grégory Spirtulis is using them and he loves them but they're not allowed to say it because Hermès it's so you know we can say it oh we don't have to say it yeah yeah and they use it so I'm not ashamed but wow with them obviously and you know I saw so Coperny they did a great new fabric with probiotics amazing for skin so something that could click with my values could be great I love fashion and something in the fashion space yeah that makes such sense yeah and I love that we're that we sort of get access to those backstage moments of fashion shows now like seeing what the the head of makeup is using as the base or you know it's so so interesting oh I love that there you go coming to another fashion show new year Paris fashion I mean it's perfect end of September very soon it makes perfect sense if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would that be one it's hard maybe i would say estee lauder yeah because i worked yeah and i think she's amazing but i think today we have many great ones when you look at maybe fidget simo you know at open ai she's a french lady yes and she's like the boss or you also have um the co-founder of road i forgot her name oh uh uh lauren ratner yeah yeah yeah i mean like you say there's so and there's so many incredible women now that have achieved such incredible things yeah so many you have on our podcast yes yeah you like my aunt i would say you know we're very lucky to have so many great and i think sometimes it's taken a little bit from everyone isn't it because everyone's got like such an incredible story to tell yeah i love that we're lucky i'm very lucky i ask each guest on here, as you will know, to leave a tip.

48:52Almost if somebody is listening to this podcast right now and they have followed your journey or discovered your brand, listened to this episode and thought, I want to do something in a similar space and I've loved everything that you've done. What would like one piece of advice, if you could say you must do this or not do this, if you're starting over, what would that be? I would say, and I think this is something lots of entrepreneurs do it's be obsessive obsess over what you want to do you have to know everything sometimes I thought I was crazy or weird but honestly this obsession made me know so much about my world I think it's my biggest weapon now yes yeah yeah Tash Oakley who um co-founded um Monday Swimwear which you've done incredibly well she's been on the podcast she actually She wrote a book called Excessively Obsessed because she's like, you have to you have to be beyond obsessed.

49:56And sometimes people might find it weird. And, you know, your friendship group might not understand it because you're always talking about this thing that you're building. But without it, the days are so long. And there are moments that are so hard without that, like, obsession and that fire that you can't put out. I don't think so. It just couldn't happen. No. because you need that to keep you through those dark days it's your fuel yeah yeah it'll always keep you going it's true um and then lastly because i ask everyone this and i'm so interested because you live in paris and i've already told you how much i love paris yes um we talk about ladies who launch but when it comes to being a lady who lunches yeah if you had a go-to meal at a go-to restaurant in paris for your lunch hour i mean lunch hours aren't always a thing if you were going to go somewhere to take a really nice well-deserved lunch hour where would you go and what are you eating so i love the grand cafe right okay have you been no never okay you will go i'm sure during fashion week um they have beautiful pasta i'm half italian so i eat a lot of gorgeous so you'll love it you know it's the tomato and vodka pasta but the thing is that this is a beautiful place because you see le grand palais and you want to see paris yes you have so great restaurants like the one that no one knows i could send you a full list i'm gonna ask you to of course for my next trip that's it yeah but some sort of a pasta i love a vodka pasta that's like i mean it's almost like my enemy because i like it too much and I can't stop.

51:38But yeah, it's a good enemy to have. Yeah. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you coming here. I know that you've come here just for this and I'm so, so grateful. I've loved our conversation and I love everything you're doing. Thank you so much for having me. Don't forget to follow us on Apple and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and make sure that you don't miss out because next time I'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched. If like me you're a watcher then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.