How SOJO Got Into Selfridges: The Real Story

0:00Today I'm joined by Josephine Philips, the founder and CEO of Sojo, the fashion tech platform rethinking how we care for our clothes. Her story isn't just about sustainability, it's about identity and building a business that sits at the intersection of tech, culture and impact in an industry where representation is still far from equal. You're gonna love her. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

0:36Well, thanks so much for coming. I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited too. Honestly, I'm so interested in what you're doing. It's so, so brilliant. And it feels kind of, it feels really like you're trailblazing. And I love it. I love it when I meet a woman and it's like, okay, there is a real gap here to fill and you're out there feeling it. I'll take it. wait to kind of unpack your whole story tell us a bit about sojo and how and where it was born for those that are listening that that i haven't met sojo yet tell us a little bit about what you do yeah so sojo is a startup that is trying to revolutionize the clothing repair and tailoring industry which is an industry that has not been modernized well ever really it's something that's kind of stayed the same for the last I want to say 150 years but probably even longer than that um and we're trying to bring it into the modern day and get people to engage with repair in the same way they engage with first-hand fashion which is easy convenient digital you know order updates and all that good stuff so sojo essentially is a way for you to get your clothes altered or repaired zips that are broken holes in your knitwear in a really simple and convenient way and we do that both directly for customers but also with brand partnerships as well it's it's so incredible and I feel a little bit like I mean I've spoke I've spoken to Victoria Prue and when when that kind of her idea was born that also seemed very like oh why doesn't this exist how hasn't it already but it gives me that same kind of feeling 100 % and I actually feel like it's probably a very very common thing amongst entrepreneurs they're just facing a personal I want this it doesn't exist therefore I should build it and I suppose it's that like gut entrepreneurial sentiment of instead of thinking oh it's a shame that doesn't exist they think I'll put this into the world but for me it definitely was that so I if we go back a little bit let's go all the way back I'm grabbing my tea yeah I was born in this hospital now um so going back I obviously like engaged in fashion in the way that absolutely everyone does and everyone's been sold to engage in fashion which is buying a lot buying very often buying into fast fashion if not ultra fast fashion um but started to really question my habits I think really at the beginning of my university um period so I was about like 18 19 um and in doing so I started buying secondhand clothes a lot more and starting to slow down my relationship with clothing and when I did that I realized that there was no easy way for me to get my clothes repaired or altered like I really was just like where do I go yeah where do I go to you know a person and And that's kind of it.

3:16And if you know them, they've probably been around for years. No, exactly. They've prepared things for your mom. Exactly. And I went off of my mom's recommendation, went to a local tailor. But then I was absolutely shocked that they were writing my order down on the back of a piece of paper and then kind of saying, you know, here it is. And I just thought, wow, it's not being booked in a system. Like there's no system for the tailoring industry. You don't know when your order's done. I went back a week later. They were like, give me one more day. Give me one more day. And I was like, OK, well, I've already come.

3:46So it was really just like this whole process is quite frictionful. And I don't know price wise what I should be paying, when it's done. And all these frictions that I was just like, this should be made easy. So more people do it. And from that, Sojo was kind of born in its actual nascent idea. You're so right. When you think about that sort of like as a, like a trade, as it were. So I sort of think like old school high street, which, by the way, I'm a big fan of the high street. but old school high street I think of like a dry cleaners that that might have a tailor out the back or that they sort of send it to a couple of days a week and like you say you might have to wait a week or 10 days for that to happen I think of like a cobbler's I think like it's archaic like that sort of space hasn't been disrupted and it doesn't there's no personality for one and it just doesn't feel sexy well that's the thing I think ultimately they're doing incredible work they have amazing skill set and as you say they've been doing it probably for 40 years and they know how to do all these incredible things however there's no brand as you say and I think when you're thinking about how to get people to engage in something like for me it wasn't the that's not working it was I want to get more people interested in repairing and tailoring their clothes and therefore how can we do that and I think around that you have to build something enticing which ultimately comes from building a brand and marketing yeah and how do we reach more people I want to talk about why you're sort of so passionate about this and not just like what we'll touch on like building the business and how you know when that light bulb moment was and we'll really dive into that but I watched um your beautiful TED talk and I thought it was so I mean you're incredible up there you are like it's like so natural to you well it looks so natural to you anyway.

5:33And you touched on the story of your grandmother. And will you kind of, will you retell that to me again? Because I was so, so interested in, this isn't just like, great, there's a gap in the market. This could be a great business model and this is a great product. This is something really deep rooted for you. Yeah. So I think what's important and what my grandma's story kind of embodies is this caring for our clothes isn't something new. And I think with my grandmother, what she was telling to me and teaching me was that people used to look after the clothes that they had. This like hyper disposability culture is something that is reasonably modern and buying something once and then throwing it away or giving it away wasn't how people used to treat their clothes.

6:16And in particular with my grandma, you know, she's West African. And I think even that takes it another step further of valuing the things that we own and a culture of, well, you know, getting even clothes made for you and things like that. But truly, she sat me down and she gave me this dress that she had bought, you know, back in the 1950s in Sierra Leone. And she wanted to gift it to me. And I just felt very confronted with the fact that it's so different to how I would engage with my clothing. And I couldn't. Would you even still have that dress to be able to give to your aunt? No, exactly.

6:43I was just like, gosh, I think that she was my age, bought this dress. You know, it became her favorite, my granddad's favorite because it was like shorter than her other dresses. So inevitably it was his favorite one. Yeah, she did. And her legs did as well. But yeah, she gave it to me and it was really special because it really confronted me with my own habits. And I think she's such an inspiration to me in general and a guiding force of how I'd like to live and embody kind of life and self and things. And so in her like teaching me that lesson and then also looking amongst the rest of her wardrobe, I mean, that dress wasn't standout.

7:16You go into her wardrobe and this is the thing that my dad got her when he was 16 and gave it to her for her, you know, 40th birthday or something. It's in her way of life. And I think it just really hit me as something deeply inspirational. And slowly but surely it changed my relationship with fashion as a whole to be one of more value and care and a bit of a slower relationship. Why do you, where do you think that changed? Because you're so right. And I think when we think about fashion and a lot, you know, a lot of people have made a lot of money through the world of fast fashion. And there are so many people that are really trying to sort of take it back to everything being a little slower and having a lot.

7:55And even there's almost a trend now and you see brands like in that luxury space, like a brand like The Row that are, I mean, incredibly expensive. but their whole model is around quality kind of considered tailored less I wouldn't even say it's I wouldn't say it's trendled I'd say it's real classic timeless timeless pieces where do you think that that sort of changed what why do you think we started to grow in a way that it's I mean is it social media like you wouldn't be seen in the same outfit twice or you can't go to a birthday if you wore it a birthday week ago you know where do you think that kind of got lost I think I don't want to get too political here but I think it's like it's the model of capitalism right it's like it's a race to the bottom in terms of how cheaply can we make things and then that means that we can make more money and if we sell more we do better and therefore the marketing is about buying more and buying more often so by nature of like a grow for growth sake and a growth model you have to sell more yeah and you have to make more money and so it's like margin goes you know up because costs come down volume goes up and so inherently that the premise of it as a whole will drive to greater volume and cheaper product yeah in general however like you're saying it's really great to think that we've maybe become a bit like we've got a bit of a distaste for it or at least you know there's a bit of a you know it and it did feel good and it does feel good but it's I think what we're realizing is it's a surface level feeling good I mean the dopamine hit they say has actually usually worn off for the person one day after they've bought the online thing you know they bought it online they get this hit they think this is going to come this is super exciting but it's not a lasting joy and again not to kind of be you know too broad in in what we're speaking of here but I I think we're just we're coming back to what is true happiness and what makes us actually happy and it's not these kind of it's not the seven pound dress that then you throw away after wearing it once yeah and you're so right and that sort of I suppose translates across the board doesn't it throughout life like everybody's sort of changing their lifestyle a little more there's something about for me this period in period of time when you feel like okay I have this seed of an idea the light bulb has now been turned on and I'm not going to be able to turn it off because until this happens and there's something about that feeling of where you're like Like you spend those first like all day, every day, don't you?

10:26All night. Yeah. When you look back, you're like, God, I was so naive. There's so much that's happened since then. But that feeling is like, for me, the same feeling as a newborn baby. It's like the bit that you want to bottle, like the excitement. You can't put it down. Talk me through you at that point and how that all sort of evolved and what kept you kind of addicted to it in that moment. I mean I'm curious about when it I'm curious about when it ended in the sense of you know because reality hits because then it becomes a business and a job and then you're like wow this is a lot but wow you have captured that feeling so poignantly because it's just taken me back to how I felt that time which was I mean if I'm honest I think I would use the word like addiction it is completely all-consuming I couldn't sleep I'd be in bed so excited just genuinely thinking how is this not existing i think what kept me going was making at that stage a lot of comparables of other industries that had digitized and therefore been incredibly successful so particularly at the beginning i mean when we launched we you know had a strapline in press that was with the deliverer of clothing repairs and again there's hyper motivation and excitement there of just thinking there was an industry that was non-digitized that someone came in digitized it etc whether it be you know uber and taxis or whatever that made me just feel like we this hasn't been touched like we are first to touch this no one's made that claim exactly and like coming into 21st century it's just like everything will be digital so whoever's gonna do it like it has to be done at some point and whoever's gonna do it is gonna win so I just felt so excited that like there was still untouched land and it feels really great when you've come up with an idea because you just think how is this not there and I'm so happy that I've the one like I've been the one to stumble across it and stumble across like true innovation and like you say you're not it's so clever in what you're doing because it's something that everybody knows and everybody needs but it's just not we haven't it's not it's not just in that way just yet so what was your first kind of you've got this thing you can't put it down you're addicted you're researching you're thinking of the comparables what was your first step in going okay this is more than just something that I'm like I want to do this is I'm going to do this what's the sort of first phone call you make and is this something that for you is so out of your depth at the time I mean to be honest no in the sense of I think there's so much naivete at the beginning that you don't feel out of your depth because you're just like that's really important to have by the way oh it's so back and you're like bless me no I didn't know that I know going into a second company I I would I'd be so much more scarred is the wrong word but like that beginning feeling is so powerful um and so I didn't feel out of my depth because every day was just progress and I think what's also important to say which you know we'll get on to fundraising is every there was no pressure to do or not to do and so like it was just so much joy in doing because every day you'd further things and I think for me what took it from just like even conceptual idea to real thing was that there's this book called the mum test um and it basically is like how to validate a business idea you shouldn't go to your mum and say mum wouldn't you like a recipe app um because she'd be like yeah that would be great you should say mum when was last time you downloaded a new app and she'll be like never instagram six years ago in which case you've already eradicated your business idea so at that stage i read this book and i was like right and i went to i actually surveyed over 300 people i remember being out on the streets with an ipad being like do you know how to sew when was the last time you went and you did the survey yeah 100 um and then off the back of that i had loads of emails because people were like oh what are you building and everything like that um and then we basically said we're looking for 10 slots for people to get their clothes altered and we had over 40 people say they wanted it just from those people I'd spoken to and I really was just like that's validated that people are willing to pay they're willing to have me come on my bike to their house like they're willing to have their things taken away and brought back to them and it just validated that it's something that's not just conceptual it's like yeah this is something people want um and it was after we did that that I then went out looking for an engineer and was like I'm ready to build an app yeah and do you know what it's so interesting you say that because everybody that I've spoken to that's in the world of tech Michelle Kennedy being a big um one of those names and obviously she what she built with peanut is just incredible and her advice to people that she's like if you're listening to this and you want to build you know whatever it is in tech or if it's the next app or however that looks test it in a setting that isn't the app like don't rush and put all of you know your cash flow into an app you know make a whatsapp group see if people join arrange a dinner see if people attend like see if people engage on it and before you rush exactly so we used a google forms which again it's just free yeah you know you can say if you want to book or repair on your items book on this google forms and i'll come to your house and it just it validates it in a completely non-financially intensive way and engineering i mean things are changing now but it's expensive and it was expensive and ultimately in the end I mean so just transformed beyond app now anyway so it's you don't want to jump too prematurely into building tech uh from day one particularly when you're not sure how that will evolve exactly so when you like as we've just touched on you start to see people engage in a really organic way and you're like okay this has now got legs right it's kind of this is more than like me being like this is gonna work this is a great idea people are actually engaged in this what is then your next step so for me that validation did teach me that I didn't want to build and for me I don't think that was premature like there had been a lot of validation in that I'd actually also gone and got a bit of grant funding like there was this mayor of London's grant for like sustainable cities and we managed to get 5k from that but I actually also had savings from selling on Depop during university um so I was a reseller which is like build a business in your bedroom um premise and also from waitressing anyway I had some savings and I went out looking for an engineer and really luckily I mean he's now our head of technology and we're still working together you know six seven years on um but luckily there was an engineer who was at university at the time had a job starting in four months wanted to add to his portfolio and ultimately work on a project like who doesn't want to work on building an app like it's a fun thing um and he was willing to yeah work for one grand a month um which at that time you know i had my savings i was like perfect this will only take eight weeks and we got started together um and it's really amazing that we still work together every single day now um especially as a random connect but that was lucky because engineering is expensive yeah but if you find someone who's early days like you are and care about building something for fun then it was like a and how did you go about even finding you know if somebody's listening to this now yeah that's exactly what i need to do but how did you even go about like yeah was that recommendation like how how did that look yeah so I think this notion of like everyone in the world is seven hops from you is real in the sense of I know I know it's so fun everyone everyone yeah um but it meant that I became like a rabbit is quite an intense word but I was like asking everyone because who doesn't you know it really was just like I was well I was going to engineering events I was going to you know black female coders I was going to hackathons at imperial like I was just going to random engineering events like soliciting it was kind of yeah like I was there as a bit of a predator being like who can be building my app um looking around the room just being like who's my potential um person um but it ended up being a friend at uni but like a reasonably distance friends boyfriend had a friend who went to Warwick and did engineering who recommended it is engineer so it's like it was four hops from me yes it didn't even make the seven exactly but if you're telling everyone you know if i asked you today do you know someone in x and the sphere can be anything you'll likely be like actually my friend knows someone i don't but i know someone like if i said yeah do you know someone in film like a director who directs films or screenwrites for films you'd probably have a connect to know someone who'd know someone so if i'm saying that to every person i meet you'll find your person and that is do you know it's such good advice because actually that's the thing and we've spoke about it quite a bit on this podcast the kind of notion of like that fear of embarrassment or like not putting yourself in certain situations because particularly everything's online we're saying okay we're starting this business that fear of embarrassing loudly or failing loudly and I think that stops a lot of women from actually sort of pressing go and getting on with it because we stop ourselves from asking questions and we almost have this idea of imposter syndrome or you know we get in our own way a lot of the time by not just putting us like you said like it was almost a little bit like predator like you were out seeing who was about but it's important to to put yourself in those situations even though they might feel uncomfortable 100 no it's like I mean we all know but if you don't ask you don't get like you have to be asking everyone all the time and I think that it's kind of like transpired a little bit one of a really great bit of advice from one of our investors is that you quote unquote should always be hiring in that they just said and this is so crazy but they were just like even if you're not hiring ask every person you meet who's the best person you've ever worked with and then add it to an excel spreadsheet because like recommendation if I asked you who's the best person you've ever worked with you're then building a database of like exceptional incredible people yeah and you can always ask that I mean I might not be hiring right now and that person might not be relevant but it's like it's just being this like I don't know.

20:07It's just looking out for what you need. And staying open. Staying open, like, to receive that, too. I think that's really important. It's become so insular when you're working so hard on something that you're actually not necessarily thinking about new people that you might not need right now. But in five years' time, you could. It's kind of, it can be distracting at the time, but actually to make that an active priority. Emma Greed actually speaks to this. She was actually our first ever episode. And she touched on the fact that she's interviewing all the time. And I was like, well, even if you've not got a role or a slot to fill, she's like, I will always interview.

20:47And I actively do so because you bet your bottom dollar in a couple of years' time. And she stays checking in with them or the team do. And then if something comes up, she's like, what about that great girl that we met at that time? Let's check in with her. And it will always. Oh, my goodness. You even just saying this now. it will always benefit you yeah our current COO I just can't believe this is so roundabout but she is someone who four years ago I said to one of our investors who's the best person you've ever worked with and they said this person and we've had coffees maybe every six months for the last few years and she joined about four months ago but it's just the touch point yes how are you doing keeping that sort of keeping it open you're always making sure that you're sort of keeping out that contact what so so right so let's sort of i've digressed because i get very excited but let's let's go back slightly so you you you meet the engineer you get him to agree to working at a thousand pounds a month i mean you're still with him now which is great but at the time you think you need eight weeks of work and then how quickly did it become apparent that you were onto something i think to be honest we got really great traction off the back of starting and that traction looked like i mean we had a thousand downloads in the first 24 hours and therefore went on the like we got on the like shopping chart yeah which i literally was just like for this to be such a v1 beta coded app um to be on a chart on apple store next to the likes of it was like mango and sojo and i was like this is amazing that was validation but then also we had really a great engagement from press and the fashion industry as a whole there was this just like general feeling of this is needed so we had you know a full feature in vogue we had a full feature in harper's bazaar and this was all within our first two weeks and i really just thought it's clicking with people like this is something that people want um and so for me it did feel like from day one we were like this is we're on the right path um the rest is a bit different of like actually executing and actually growing and actually running a business but definitely day one I was like we've absolutely made it it's clicked yeah or it's almost just that sort of like you say the validation but also the thing that if you're putting everything into something that people are understanding that you're not really having to sort of over educate what it is that people are getting it and feeling like it's needed were you in this period of time to sort of you finding the engineer to launching were you still running based on the funds that you'd saved and the kind of agreement that you had with the engineer or were you needing investment early on yeah no so it was definitely no investment at that stage and also I actually wasn't even thinking about investment in general like I really was just like just starting just getting going and also it was I was at the tail end of uni as well which I think is important to note because it means that you're also just at a different life stage where you know you can do whatever you want and the openness is there there's no responsibility whatsoever so yeah we very much were in our bubble not thinking about investment um and actually i think that was one of maybe the best things to have happened to sojo because we then launched and got started and we're actually operating as a company um albeit in questionable ways in that like ultimately when i went to raise investment the um business the bank account was connected to my personal account like for example that then is like so we were operating as a company but not one where i was trying to build it you know because I suppose at that point you're the definition of a scrappy startup it's like let's just get this off the ground and let's they needed a bank account I was like here's my bank account and then by the time we went to raise investment they were like can we see the accounts and I was like my account you'd like to see my personal account there's been a pret pret transaction this morning a Zara by lunch but yeah we had inbound investor interest which is great because we weren't looking to raise I think because I was so a disillusion maybe with the investor landscape that I wasn't thinking I want to go out and pitch and x y and z I really was just like I'm just going to build um and that meant that people came in by being like what are you building it looks exciting can we talk and I was like oh okay and so were you instantly open and responsive to that because like you said at that point if it wasn't on your radar it wasn't a feeling that you were you wasn't there yet with thinking about investment were you open or were you skeptical yeah I was definitely skeptical um and I think I spent a bit of time testing out the relationships right and to be honest I think that's also actually just a really good investment strategy investment fundraising strategy is like have a bit of an early stage relationship with the investor ask them for advice get their mentorship especially if we're speaking about men they love to give advice have you put it into practice have it work and then you know you say thank you and I think that creates a great foundation for them then giving you cash when it's time to raise so I would say that is a good kind of strategy in general of like them being part of the journey then means when it's time to raise money that they feel more bought in um but that wasn't necessarily the strategy it was just that I wanted to get to know them and sense check you know whether we got on and things like that I think I was like I was nervous and I was young um and I think it was a good thing because it just meant yeah and how sort of soon in to the launch was investment on the table so we raised funding nine months in after launch and I'd been working on it for a few months before um that so yeah and it came from I mean it came from LinkedIn so it's also worth saying that like you know LinkedIn is a great place for anyone to see what you're up to and see what what's of interest in them to get in touch and yeah that nine months was great because it meant we just did things you know completely authentically um for that stage and then pretty quickly so we raised 300 grand nine months in and then actually raised 1.8 million within four months of that again as well so we raised pretty quickly afterwards particularly for a start that's a lot of cash you know and that's two people yeah but it's yeah it's incredible and so early on nine months in it's amazing and incredible that you that you pulled that off but again comes down to you know credit to what you're built what you built and what you're building and people really believing in that what what did that enable you to do were you were you instantly aware of how you would spend that cash and how you would put that into the business I think maybe we're about to speak an hour about a period of time but it's like a lot more frictionful and a lot more difficult because to be honest we absolutely did not get it right from that moment onwards for what I feel like was like quite a while I want to say a year and a half two years it was it was a lot like it was a lot did you feel like when you say a lot did you feel like it and it up the ante with pressure because when you're finding your feet and you've not really got anyone over you i.e it's a startup you're getting great coverage and this all feels like a win but then you take money on board and you know there's outside pressure and did it instantly sort of change your relationship with the business ever so slightly yeah so i think it was twofold you hit the nail on the head with the fact that like before you raise funding everything is positive is a win everything's progress yeah everything's a win if you raise venture capital funding the benchmark is you should be at a one billion dollar company in five to seven years so like that's that's the model that's the model of venture capitalism of like you've got five seven years ideally build a billion dollar company we're looking for a unicorn and so anything that's not that yeah is therefore an L do you know what I mean like it's like if that's the aim or that's the goal or that's the promise I mean I'll be completely honest I when I fundraised the naivete was strong and I was super confident but I you know I would say to these investors you give me a million I'll give you a hundred million back yeah like that's what I believed at that time as well.

28:47Yeah, we move. But I say that in jest because when I said that and then they've been like, here's a million. It's like, wow, okay. Okay, I've got this one.

28:57Josephine Philips: Oh my God. Now I'm actually going to do what I said. Yeah. But then if it's not, it's not growing at that rate or in that way or with that margin, it's then you feel like a failure. So I think there was like the actual side of it, which is there's a lot more pressure. Yeah. And the timelines are quicker and you need to do way more than you were doing when it was just you working on a daily basis like trying to move things forward but there was also the other side of it which was I was 24 and had never been a manager before and we hired a lot of people overnight so you know it was me and and my wonderful engineer Isaac and then obviously we got a couple of million in the bank overnight and then we kind of grew to a team of about 14 people within the space of a few months and that was a very very difficult situation because I hadn't managed before and it's so many people and it's people who were also senior and like it was it was just all the things the concoction was you've never hired before you've never managed before you've never fired before so trying to do all those things um was very difficult and that actually caused a a very difficult kind of 12-month period for us of trying to figure out how do we align everyone and move forward in the right way and everyone knows onboarding is like the toughest thing to do anyway because it's such a big beast of a job onboarding people in the team but the job itself still needs to be done so it's like your that's a job in itself is onboarding hiring is a job in and of itself exactly that but then the the work still needs to be done so you're splitting yourself into into a thousand pieces what did you find most difficult about that period of time well if if i'm sort of looking back for you you're 24 you're hiring for the first time you've been given all this cash and you've now got pressure into how that looks and what the return is.

30:42But also I can imagine at 24 when this is your first sort of bite of the cherry, hiring senior, did that, you're already laughing. Like that's quite difficult because you're kind of, you're finding your feet, you've never done this and leading and running a team is no mean feat. But I always wonder when it's like, you know a young smart woman with all of these ideas and the world at her feet in terms of business how does that feel when you're when you're taking on senior staff was there ever any friction that you were like I don't really think anyone's getting me or understand or was everyone on board and they kind of came with a level of respect yeah so I think it's a really really good question i think much like our investors they know what they're getting into whether it's people who apply or people who've invested in the company so actually especially as i didn't go out to look for investment the people who were coming in and being like we're interested in investing they already knew that i was young they knew that i was black they know the female you know all these things so it's like oh so we're over those boundaries yeah yeah yeah and similarly if someone's applying for a company for the company given that a lot of Sojo was the brand that we were trying to build around it etc um I think people knew from day one that they were excited for a young founder etc um I think knowing and reality is two different things for sure um and I think that I made a really big mistake which was hiring for logos um and actually thinking you know for example in a reasonably senior in a senior role um they had previously been in a senior role at KPMG and spoke to the fact that they ultimately were overseeing and responsible for 3 ,000 people.

32:31And I was like, wow, like this person definitely knows how to manage. That is absolutely not what a startup needs in terms of how corporates work, all the resource they would have, their whole team, the 3 ,000 people that they have under them ultimately is nothing to do with where we're at and what we're doing. And so it's just like, Like there was always going to be the chaos of my bank account even being connected to the company. It's like, how does how is this even real? You know, there were so many like just frictions between. And don't you say those startups need a different level of handholding that a big old corporate kind of would and wouldn't in, you know, in a different vein.

33:07So I suppose it's like you say, you would hear that and go, OK, well, they've done this. They'll be amazing at this. Actually, it is a completely different role. completely and i think actually what i've learned is that hiring people who are just entrepreneurial in and of themselves they can do their own thing figure their own thing out they don't need structures they don't necessarily need um team members you know they can do things quite autonomously they can both do the high lows they can do the small things they can do the big things that's really the bread and butter of what makes a startup work but i definitely didn't know that at that time and i think fundamentally it's it's all a learning like that failure nor are you supposed to is that you've never done this before you just raise a shit ton of money and i'm like what do we do with all of this yes and i think sorry can i just say that also one thing we didn't touch on is the business element is i think your business needs to be in a very specific place for funding to be added and for it to go really well i think we were still figuring it out and therefore it's not necessarily pouring fuel on the fire it's like you're pouring fuel no I know what you mean it's almost being ready for it at the same time and but equally it's a really it's a bit chicken and egg because you you yeah to have that capital to be able to springboard is also what you need but sometimes I hear founders that started hiring and started onboarding because they were looking at taking on investment and they knew it was going to get there and it meant that when they landed they'd onboarded so they sort of invested themselves in onboarding so that, you know, when the T's were crossed and the I's were dotted, they were ready and the cash came in and it was like, okay, let's put our foot down, which also makes sense.

34:49But, you know, it's like I said, it can be super chicken and egg. So you, this money comes in, you take on 14 people. And then what did it really sort of enable you to do that was a lot harder with a smaller team the opposite wow so more people i think we achieved less with more people than we would have with less people because i think well there was just a massive management distraction from my point of view um but i think you've got different people different opinions different frictions etc i think when you're working with a small team you can be so aligned so cohesive let's say it's four people let's say it's five people you're working together in the office I think there's constant we're doing this all together I think actually like having the bigger team I mean to be honest we did move in a really great direction which was a bit more b2b which I account for you know having a bigger team and also moving into a different level of business and having the funding to be able to execute on you know we then had a team of three engineers and a product manager and all these things yeah um so we moved forward and we're able to launch incredible partnerships with great brands but if i really think about it i do think that at that stage that we were at a smaller team we would have moved further faster more aligned um and executed more yeah do you know what so it's crazy because you just think like the bigger the army you know the quicker and the further that you can push but actually sometimes a streamlined approach and i think sometimes for you to get your head around as well right like this is all new I'm finding my feet there's a lot of people to check in with and make sure everyone's happy and everyone's performing where the less people to keep your eye on etc actually it helps maybe would have made your life easier yeah and I think that also the more people the more you do so because there's people to do it so you become less critical about what you should actually be doing yes so you're actually you're thinking oh we should be doing google ads and instagram ads and driving paid advertising because we have someone who's now our social marketing to do so exactly so i think whereas like the truth is is was that right if we were going a bit more down a b2b lens and and i suppose like you know one of our investors said you know you can spend 10 million acquiring 1 million customers or you can land a good brand and then be access be a service that's accessible to their 1 million or 10 million customers one costs a whole load 10 million the other one doesn't it's like b2b as a strategy ended up being really right for us but we did sink a couple of years into direct consumer and paid advertising and all those things so by nature of having someone in that role so of course they were making things work and they were testing different ads so by having more people we did more as opposed to thinking what is the one good core thing we should be doing and what's the best strategy we should be going after and how does how did those days look in comparison to sojo now like where's the team at where is like have you altered those things that are kind of make your life easier and the way that the business now runs absolutely i love that i love our situation now i obviously also navigated that situation before i don't want to speak to that that time but it was it was challenging now it's so so fantastic i'm a completely different leader well more experienced um having done this for years now and i think it makes a massive difference to just have the right people around the table.

38:21It's a combination now with the right people around the table. I know how to manage them to run things, to do the right strategy. We also have a better business, the right fundamentals, because we've gone down the right strategic direction. And I think that just like all things have come together to now, this is just like a really, really well running. I mean, it's never perfect. It never is, girl. No, it never is. Absolutely never is. But I'm so happy with where it is now versus where it was. and do you think there's something and I've really noticed is myself like as as you grow and as kind of it's like always light and shade and it's you know for want of a better cliche word a journey um are you now able to spot the right person for the team instantly because I've become a lot better at that like instantly I know I'm like yes they are us I think for a period of time I was really I would gravitate to people that perhaps had a similar skill set to me, which is really not smart because that's why I'm here.

39:20But I think because I get a little buzz and I'm like, oh my God, yes, we love. But actually, fundamentally, there was a lot that was missing. So I think now I'm really good in knowing that like, and I've spoke about this with founders, that I really want it to always feel like a team. And I don't ever want to feel as much as I'm leading and I'm aware of that. I don't want to feel far removed from anyone because we're all kind of in this together. But there's a fine line between wanting to be liked and by your team and having it. I don't know what the right way to reference it is, but it's almost that fine line of wanting to be such a sort of friendly, incredible atmosphere that I was then gravitating to people that I thought, oh, my God, we were in jail.

40:07but actually I'm like we don't need to be like going for dinner we need to like have this job run in the best way it can possible and guess what if I'm great at this I don't need this I need someone that fills in my blanks and now I'm obsessed with them and that's exactly and I think it's just hiring right but it's taken me a real while to get that 100 % no I completely agree I think that through trial and error and unfortunately that is like that error part is probably the most difficult part of this whole journey. You have to go through it though, don't you? You do. But it's difficult. I think, you know, people's jobs, like it's a really hard thing for it to go wrong and to not go right.

40:49And having to let people go is like just the absolute worst. Oh shit. It's so shit. It's so awful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so awful. But you learn, you learn, you learn. And now I think I completely agree. Different skill sets, 100%, different personalities, you know, diversity makes things more successful, et cetera. Diversity of thought, all that good stuff. However, I think there is a through line, which is like an approach to work, which I think I sense check for quite early on in the hiring process. So even just for example, you know, with a few team members within that first interview, if I think I'm liking them, and this is literally even just the first chat, and I'm like, I can sense this is good.

41:26I'll usually quite quickly get them to do a very rogue task within a short space of time and it's ultimately then up to them if they want to prioritize it how they execute on it etc and that's not necessarily the same as like this is stage two of the process it can actually be something that was unplanned or something that relates to something we're working on that week but really just try and just be like I need to be able to throw a curveball very quickly and just see how they do or don't handle it so interesting so that kind of like go get a willingness comfortability definitely is a good yeah it's a good like sign for me that I look out for for that like agility and that kind of just the will to figure it out yeah I think that's half the battle isn't it and I think we discussed this a lot and you know it's great being an entrepreneur but for me the beauty of being a great entrepreneur is actually it's not the wind and it's not it going incredibly well it's when it fucks up which occasionally it will yeah yeah occasionally daily it will that you it it is the ability to be able to figure it out and pivot and move on and take the other path because that one now isn't quite working and I think if you can build a team where you're aligned in that yeah that actually of course we've all got roles but when shit hits the fan we're all just going to figure it out and we are that's where I feel like it's very clear who's part of the team and who isn't and it's really hard when you're a founder to expect everyone to feel the same way as you do about this but if you've got people that feel like that even though it isn't theirs I think that's when you for me anyway that's how you know it's golden yeah I agree it's so tough isn't it I'm so I'm like this podcast this is literally why I do this I'm like we find it tough too right yes it's just therapy um I want to talk about um representation because you're part of a very small um black british women raising and building in tech which i mean i don't whenever i hear stats i'm always like and i'm very aware by default and by dna but it always blows my mind just how i mean first of all how small groups of women are in any industry and then when we add black into that it kind of just does that some more um in the uk only 10 black female entrepreneurs received venture capital funding between 2009 and 2019 just 0.02 percent of total vc funding between 2019 and 2023 just 13 black women raised venture capital funding in the UK compared to over compared to over 3 ,700 white men I mean they're very stark stats they always are but were you aware of those stats before you got to that fundraising process I mean you touched on the fact that you're grateful and you're lucky the fact that that that was kind of inbound but were you aware of the world that you were kind of getting yourself into um yes and no in that I think I was very aware of the world but not the statistics directly I think I just generally knew I mean to be honest again you can just start on one intersection but like solo founders already aren't an investor's ideal situation because ultimately if you go under the proverbial bus like who's running who's running the company so like in general there is just this premise of like solo founders aren't ideal and there's actual actually venture capital funds that have a rule no solo founders so already that's a thing then obviously you add in women and it's only about two percent of funding etc so you've got solo female and then black female founders and I think that it's inherently just obvious by nature of like me not having people to look up to and if I did have someone they would be one or two people that it's not a landscape where you know the the tech venture ecosystem um is there to support us in the way that we need um what i would say is there is a difference between the initial angel round that i did which came from inbounds and the 1.8 million which was a full fundraising outbound process um and that was a lot of rejection a lot of rejection and a lot of pitching had you prepared yourself for that level of rejection no because again I think that I naively was just like I mean who wouldn't who wouldn't want to support this fantastic company and I I suppose I knew that it would be difficult um but you're so you believe in it so much that it's very hard to be told no it's not going to work especially as you also really intricately link your identity to it so a rejection of the company was a rejection of me and it was just hard like it was really hard I I remember there were some pitches you know just I'm thinking back to the time of fundraising at that time and again I was just super young but there were some pitches that I was doing it and my sister was holding my hand under the table and I haven't said it but like I'm just remembering because at that morning I was shaky and I was I've been rejected by so many and I did 14 pitches in one day and like it I was exhausted and I was emotionally shaky but ultimately you have to push through and and like that resilience as you say and that like continuous ability of just being like even if they don't believe it I'll believe it and I I think I had this mentality of it's your loss then which I think is a good thing to take you to the next conversation of being like I'll do this with or without you but if you get involved you'll make money so you know that's your prerogative um how long did it take you for like it for the green light to actually happen and that one point ain't sitting in your bank how what was the kind of for that period of time that was outbound yeah was it difficult did it feel like very long at the time or yeah get a bite quite quickly well so i had and was guided by two incredible black investors who'd been in the space for a while um yvonne bajella and um andy davis And they taught me everything that I needed to know about the venture ecosystem.

47:36And actually, they really advised that one of the worst situations is to be fundraising for 12 months or to approach it in quite a slow way. And we did this like really, really intense document of like 120 investors to speak to. And all of them, we were like, we have to get a warm intro to every single one of them because warm intros rule the industry. and so it was this like we did a very very big like three week prep before like getting warm intros to all those people and like using network and they introduced me to so many people and what was great is we were getting interest from people who really like backed what we were doing so the intro is also great when it's like someone being like this is a fantastic founder you have to speak to yes um and ultimately even the investors who I spoke to they would do intros as well so you're constantly asking for intros and so the actual process for me was six weeks which is really really short for a fundraising round but i speak to that by saying that i did 14 pitches in one day because people would typically do probably what i did in terms of conversations but over a period of nine months every year um but i was just like they had advised that like you need to just build this intense fomo you need to do it all in one go you'll be great at answering questions because you're answering them all day long you'll know the answers you know what there's something to be said for that like just staying getting that rhythm and staying in the rhythm of it because it's like anything that you can get rusty you can feel out of it and then the older we get right the more fear that that surrounds us right and we slowly get scared of different things and you know it's like the idea of going on a roller coaster when you're a kid is like it's really fun but by the time you get to 40 you're like actually I'm not sure about the idea of going around yeah because the fear kicks in so to just be in that and not be out of it there is something to be said 100 % and actually I raised a bit of funding last summer as well and I did the same thing where I was like this is my full-time job for four weeks yeah and if it works in four weeks great if it doesn't I go back to building but it was really just like I'm just going to do this for this four week period and you therefore make it happen you do all the interest it's your full-time focus yeah and you're laser focused on that absolutely laser focus and for me that's what really worked and this is just a small bit of like advice that actually is just a bit more administrative which is um the tax year ends on the 5th of April and there are a lot of funds that have to deploy by that deadline right um so actually we also moved very quickly because once you've got one fund in your round that needs to deploy by that deadline everyone else has to align to that timeline the legals have to close quickly so we did have a fund that had to deploy non-negotiably in three weeks in which case that became the bent like the kind of stake in the ground for all the other conversations of like the round closes in two weeks time are you in are you out and so that created a really good deadline as well yeah yeah and almost giving yourself that kind of like you say that a bit of a gun to head moment where it's like it has to be done by x and it's good to kind of have that trickle through and build through to everybody else completely i want to talk about the fun stuff because um i am so i'm such a huge fan of brand partnerships collaborations i think particularly for startups and what you're doing to be associated to um big brands early on and i know obviously over time that's really that's really scaled but I want to talk about the in-store online partnerships that you've had with brands like Gani, M &S and what I love for you so much because it just feels like the perfect home.

50:59If we're going to do this in-store, we're in Selfridges and we're in Selfridges and Sojo's got a permanent concession space there which is like the ultimate retail destination, isn't it? That must still feel... back a pinch me moment it is it's gold standard i think it's the one that is god it's exactly sorry me tooting my own hobby no no no it completely is it's like a self you know it's like that's creme de la creme yeah yeah 100 it does still feel surreal i actually think it's the thing that well has really helped us in terms of validating us for other partners or continuing to validate us even in terms of fundraising or it's it's such a incredible name that's so known it's what people bring up to me all the time saying oh i saw you that you know it's just it's a really really core and wonderful part of what we're doing and it really validates that we're doing something cool enough to be in the center of the retail you know the high street of the UK in such an incredibly iconic location so it's yeah it's a big one it's just it's just like honestly it's incredible I've got a matcha brand and the minute that Selfridges expressed interest of us being in the food hall it had the same sort of feeling of the like they've given we've been given the gold star guys like it's sort of and it does it's incredible how it opens up other opportunity to have the validation of a selfridges and for what you're doing it's so incredible how does that partnership work so what does there's a permanent concession there but talk us a little bit through how that works yeah so sojo in general is very very tech first so a lot of the work that we do is that actually we give our tech to brands so that on their website you can book any repairs that you need doing and it's in their brand identity etc um not only that we do tech for their stores as well so we provide the tech for retail assistance to book in needs of you know shortening a trouser or replacing a zip but with self which is the reason it's really like fun and different and unique is it is a physical presence for us which is a bit you know against what we're typically doing which is like digitizing and modernizing we're bringing our little tailoring shop to selfridges um but i think what's so great is it's a space that a you can come drop off whatever get fitted if you want to but also we actually have tailors working there as well so on the shop floor whilst you're looking at new clothing you're seeing clothes get repaired like you can watch them do repair if you want to which I think for me is the best part because our whole mission is to make repairs mainstream and what's more mainstream than being on a the women's wear floor in Selfridges and then seeing someone repairing a jump or repairing you know a pair of denim jeans and patching things up it's it's experiential retail and I think that's increasingly something that they need because retail is struggling as well so it's like how can we make this more enticing engaging and come to life and like and also this touches on what you were talking about earlier of course this is you're bringing it to the modern world but as we said ultimately I like that it has that old soul in the modern world and it's like the irony of the two but it yeah it that's exactly exactly what the mission was in the first place like you said you needed the tailor you went there and it's exactly I love it it feels a bit full circle at the same time as well as being a great activation and having that that concession there it does feel a bit full circle and it fades into ultimately one at the beginning which is building a brand around repair and alterations as well as like it's something recognizable and it's yeah it's sojo and it's there um let's talk about your future plans for sojo because now you're like you're I mean you're flying and you're like I said trailblazing in what you do and I've no you are you don't have to thank me it's completely true what are your future plans like what what's next how do you you know as businesses do we kind of always want to be elevating and evolving and growing how do you see that shaping out in the next few years well I think that ultimately the brands that we work with and that we're partnering with and that we are serving are just based here in the UK because that's where our operations are, but they are international by nature.

54:58So working with the likes of, you know, whether it be like Ralph Lauren or Gani, you know, these are brands that have international presences and they want the service to be with all their customers if it's working. So we have big international plans for Sojo. And I know it's cliche, but yeah, world domination. Yeah, no, but absolutely, you're so right because it's sort of, you're conquering those brands here, but of course they have that international presence. And if they've got a good working relationship with you, they're only going to want you to expand as well as yourself yeah it honestly it's so so exciting i want to do our rocket round now oh yay and these are our quick fire questions that i ask every guest well they're supposed to be quick fire we tend to waffle okay um the first one is what do you believe are the non-negotiables for running a business

55:46resilience perseverance endurance I think there's a theme going on any any synonyms of those words I think it's like yeah the non-negotiable is this mental strength that you have to have that is stronger than the idea like you have to you have to be yeah self-assured enough to keep going day yeah yeah absolutely that um when did you first realize that you truly launched the first order i think money someone's willing to pay and it actually works and particularly because it was app-based it's like oh they've managed to go through the whole flow it's functioning yes door to door start to finish no no bug so for me that was a moment of just like wow this is real yes yes i bet what's the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed um toxically tell me the truth i wake up and then i pull my laptop into bed and then I open it and I start to work for three hours before everyone wakes up um but before bed it's way way way nicer it's candles and ideally ideally a bath and I like to read before bed I love it and what are you reading at the minute I'm reading Another Country by James Baldwin okay I think what's the book that you mentioned at the start was it Mum's Test Mum's Test yeah yeah yeah there you go I'm gonna have to read that one um what is one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to?

57:05Maybe the team one, which was just, yeah, build the team, grow the team, the team being bigger equals more success. I think that advice for me was detrimental to what was ultimately a year plus of Sojo's time. Maybe too quick. Like sometimes you just need to feel it out and find your feet and yeah, have the team when you're ready. Exactly. And maybe you will get to 14, but start with two, then go to four. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then go to six. Yeah, I agree. a skill that you'd love to learn I'm actually starting a life drawing course in two weeks time so drawing I've never done it before I'm definitely I'd like to I say that I'm not that creative my sister's actually an artist but I don't do anything like that so I'll be going and drawing these naked models and I'm excited this is so much fun I love that for you one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your career I think it's going to sound like one of those cheesy quotes on Instagram that actually everyone secretly loves which I do that says like fast success builds ego slow success builds character and I think at the beginning I was so off to the races I wanted to like win by x and do things really quickly but that the piece of like it's a marathon not a sprint and I think also like Sarah Blakely spoke about how her dad said you know what have you failed at today is a positive thing because it's all a learning of just like if you didn't fail you didn't try yeah and I think seeing a bit more positivity as you say in the journey um would have been the way I'd wish I'd started because I think I was obsessed with the end goal right at the beginning yeah you're so right you're so right and like you say that's reframing the narrative of what failure means like it's it really is lessons or you know deciding what you won't do again versus like the end of all um what would be the dream collab for sojo do you think i love when startups combine with like heritage so i would say like a you know like a barber or something people have been around for like 100 plus years 150 plus years and then like startup and bringing something new and modern and I agree.

59:15Exactly that. I agree. Put it to the universe. Plug today. Yes, put it to the universe. And then lastly, if you could choose one female figure as a mentor, past or present, who would that be? I think it would be our lovely Emma Greet. Ah, yes. Like she says it how it is. She does. Oh yes, she doesn't mean so much. She's for me. She doesn't know how to. Exactly. And she's so inspiring and also just like, I think it's that piece of like, we'd get on, but she'd also be such a great mentor. Yes, yes. Me being like, we'd get on. No, you would. and also she's like she's a great person to pick you know when someone says can I pick your brains like she's like so generous with her advice and like her time too and I think she doesn't like she doesn't fluff like she just gets to the point quite quick yeah there's no airs and grace it's like okay this is it baby shit we've got to do this we've got like you'd know exactly but it's very important to know where you stand and then every episode I ask our guest to leave a tip almost like one piece of tangible advice if someone was listening to this right now and they're like I don't know whether it be about funding or whether it'll be about building an app like something that you think a lady looking to launch really needs to know if it was sort of following in a similar vein to what you're doing I think I mean this could be applicable to any woman starting a business but thinking about the end at the beginning and I don't mean that in the goal sense that I was speaking about earlier just like I want to be as successful as possible as quickly as possible what type of business do you want to build in terms of size um sharmadine reed recently did a video course on this but are you building a 1 million brand a 10 million brand 100 million brand or a 1 billion brand because you build all four of those in completely different ways and i think that getting off to you know starting sojourn being like i'm going for that unicorn thing just you know i did that before thinking about whether that is or is not what i actually wanted to do and so any advice that i'm giving to you know people starting businesses now is what do you want from the end of it or like how big do you want the company to be or what do you want it to look like I'm really thinking about that and trying to center yourself in that decision making um and it's weird to think about the end at the beginning but it will change the way you build the company and I think it's also there's a part of us that thinks that we're really not supposed to as if like this will be my you know I've really transparent and honest conversations with women that are like oh no I'm building this because of the exit like I've already I can already tell you that I want to exit by this point and I think particularly if I'm you know compared to my own experience when I started My Little Coco it's like such a labor of love for me and such a passion project I suppose in the same way so do is for you yeah that the idea of exit I'm like I'm never going to exit and it's funny how then you become more open to those conversations as you go but I've got friends that are like this is business I want to build this and I want to exit by this point and I'm okay with it so I'm gonna make more rational decisions and less emotional ones and I think it's speaking to what it is and being okay with however that looks because I think sometimes you're like no it's my baby and I think we put too much on that sometimes too which actually can be another toxic relationship with your business because you make it a real other part of you 100 % but I can't ever not sadly I wish I could I wish I could break myself a little bit I we talk about ladies who launch but if it comes to being a lady who lunches we love we have to end up on a food note um what I always say if I'm your assistant and it's a bit like it's a bit devil wears Prada and I've got the job for the day to be your assistant and I'm gonna I want to please you what am I ordering for your lunch and where would you like to have it i my lunch order would be i love a like light pasta like a pasta and pesto salad and maybe some hummus and falafel and maybe some chicken i love a lot going on i do i do like to eat quite a bit it actually gives me energy for the afternoon as opposed to like having a light lunch and staying um staying energetic it gives me energy and in an ideal world i'd 100 % have it in a park um that's oh i love that i don't know really no i love it no getting sun on my face uh so obviously clearly we're talking about spring we're talking about nice weather months here um but it's my favorite favorite favorite place to take a break in the middle of the day i even like sitting on the grass it's really just like being in some light touching nature and taking a beat i love it so we're getting a pasta bowl yeah apple salad in the park yeah i like it there you go my first day as your assistant it's gonna go very well thank you so much it's been so lovely to talk to you and meet you and it's so brilliant what you're what you've built already and what you continue to build it i love it i love a woman in tech i've just always so it's so alien to me that i'm always so in awe of it so it's it's been great to unpack everything well thank you for having me i think you are inspiring this next generation of female founders and it's incredible to be a part of that well as a use out there girl so thank you thank you very much i love that

1:04:29don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure that you don't miss out because next time i'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched if like me you're a watcher then please follow us on youtube and don't forget to like and subscribe Thank you.