How to Build A Career In Beauty, Gain Authority & Stay Credible | Sarah Jossel

0:00Today I'm joined by Sarah Jossel, one of the most trusted and recognisable voices in the beauty industry. With over a decade of experience across print, TV and social media, Sarah's built a reputation for cutting through the noise, offering honest, expert insight in a space that's often driven by hype. And now she's bringing the same clarity to her debut book, Diary of a Beauty Editor, a guide to all the products and treatments that will make you feel and look your best. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

0:41I'm so excited that we're doing this there is so much I want to ask you because there is of course so much that I don't know like we see each other passing at work and you know we talk but it's so good when you actually have a relationship with someone to ask the questions that we've never had the time to sit down and have a cup of tea and ask totally I'm so excited that you're here you've built a I mean a glowing career in an industry that so many people particularly now I feel with social media so many people want to break into did you always know that you wanted to work in beauty and media no that is like the easiest no it didn't even cross my mind I didn't even know it was a profession and that is something that I often tell people because young, you know, for example, there are so many chemists that make beauty products and women don't know that these jobs are there.

1:35Like if you want to study science and you can go and make products, like there are all these jobs in the beauty industry that I think just need to be shouted about so much more. But to strip it back to me, I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do, which only now do I say to people, it's actually a real advantage to not know. that's such an interesting take yeah and I love that you say that because some people like I'm stuck I don't know what my thing is but why do you think why do you think it's an advantage because you get to try so many things you know if you're like I want to be an astronaut that's all you're ever gonna do it's all your love that I said astronaut when I'm here good perfect very very on brand but um no I didn't know so I tried so many different things I literally you name the job and I tried it thought maybe marketing thought to go work in different businesses I tried to work in a hairdresser I tried all these different things and then I did an internship and I really spent so many years in a fashion cupboard that I didn't see light for a long time you know how there's a lot of people who do things very quickly and like you're suddenly famous yes I am the polar opposite I lived in a cupboard for about three years on different magazines and I fell into the beauty world and I always tell people in the beginning I didn't totally get it I remember a lipstick would arrive and all the beauty editors would be like lipstick and I'd be like no don't think this is for me and it was only when I started to understand a completely different side of the beauty industry which is problem solving that we could fix things and we could help people with things that they felt self-conscious about right that I thought this is a really interesting industry like we can make people feel so much more confident with the advice we give them and sharing tips and tricks from these incredible experts how do we get the experts voices to the people at home and I was like oh this is gonna be good and it was then that I thought yes I want to be a beauty editor I found my thing yeah and what did those sort of first steps look like into becoming and into sort of putting this all into practice so as I said it was an internship world where you really had to pay your dues there was no jumping the gun I remember I for my first job there's there used to be a website that you could apply to all these different jobs and I thought I'll just apply for features director and I was 18 but like absolutely zero experience and I think I wrote the famous line.

4:08I love your density, though. Oh, yeah. I wrote, I've got transferable skills. Not sure what they were. But, you know, like you say, well, I've read, like, some newspapers, so I could transfer those skills into being future director. Little did I know that, you know, there's about 500, like, hopefuls to one job. Didn't get it then. But then you get your first, it really was like, I applied to maybe about 200 different jobs and I got 199 no's. And then it was Harper's Bazaar that said, we've had a cancellation. would you like to come be a fashion intern? And I lived in this cupboard and I remember someone saying, just go above and beyond.

4:44Like they don't notice you because it's a two week stint and they're just going to say, fold these, iron these, pick up these. And there was this woman who was so stressed. She was doing a tartan shoot. And she was trying to find all these brands that had tartan in their collections. It's niche, it's quite hard to find. Right. And I remember I went home and I spent... all night I didn't sleep and at that time it was searching on different on a website called style.com every single brand that could possibly do tartan and I just went up to her and I said no you didn't ask me but I hope this helps and that look ended up being on the cover wow and I got called tartan girl at Harper's Bazaar and I was like I'll take it I've got a name like they know me yes can I be editing how how does this work um but it was then that I realized just find a way to make yourself known and that two-week internship became a month and then three months and then six months and I just knew it then like you have to go above and beyond yeah just do something that they are like oh her because then I realized it's all peer-to-peer reviews so Harper's Bazaar recommended me to Russian Vogue and Russian Vogue recommended me to Vogue India and I was doing all these international jobs that were in London and then I got the call to say glamour has this beauty assistant job and i was like beauty i'm fashion editor what do you know that's the dream i want to be a fashion editor and someone said your first job doesn't have to be your dream job just get your foot in the door such good advice yeah so because you know you say i i want to be a fashion designer but your first job doesn't have to be designing a collection yeah you know go and work for all your favorite people or the people that inspire you most to learn first so I thought well I don't think I want to be a beauty editor but that's a foot in the door at glamour which at the time it was the job so I took it I took it and then it went from there you know it was the whole figuring out what sort of you know way into beauty I was going to get there and then I suppose at that point you actually really did have transferable skills oh yeah now I was ready then you had them how was the jump for you personally from fashion into beauty because I think fashion and beauty often get grouped together, don't they?

6:58But obviously they're two, I mean, I'm into all things fashion and all things beauty. So, you know, as women and, you know, as people, we're really multifaceted. There's lots of things that interest us. But how much of a sort of gear shift for you was that? And did you take to it straight away? When I was starting out, which was about 15 years ago, it was all about fashion. Beauty, I think, was the sort of slightly uncooler sister. That's so interesting. Yeah, it did not have the vibe and the presence and the power that it has now. Everybody wanted fashion. So at first, I remember sort of muttering, oh, I'm a beauty editor.

7:37It didn't feel as sort of powerful to say it. I think it's a little bit the other way around now. I think beauty has taken center stage. I think because of social media. I think because of the business of beauty. The market is just booming. The market, you know, the lipstick index, how people might not be able to afford fashion, but they can still buy that lipstick. I think beauty has the utmost power now. And everybody wants a bit of it. Look at all the fashion retailers, you know, M &S. All of them are putting beauty center stage now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so, so true. If we go back to that sort of first day on the job, what did you, and we're going back to sort of the, you previously to that, that you're kind of, you're wanting to make yourself known, you're wanting to make them remember you, you want to go above and beyond.

8:25How did you feel like you were going to bring Sarah Jostle into that role? So I've always done two things. I've always tried to entertain. I think that was my personality. Like I'm always like one to come up with, I've always got the stories. Like I always want to talk and just like, I love interacting with people. So I read so much. I'm always learning so much because I think to be able to bring something to the table is really important. Don't just look at everything sort of what everyone else is doing. Come with your own story. Yes. And I think then I could say, oh, you're doing a story on that.

9:01I think you should do X. And people really value opinions. I think there aren't enough opinions out there. Everybody's sort of carbon copying everybody else. And so I always remember someone saying, come with ideas. And I've had that from day one. I've always had to bring ideas at weekly ideas meetings. And I think it was the best prep for where I am today is having to research articles, books, what people are saying, what people are doing, what I'm seeing. Everywhere I go, I will go up to someone and say, I've got to ask you, where do you have your hair cut? You know, I ask everyone everything.

9:36Yes, yes. Because that is my, that's my currency. Yeah. Is knowledge. Yeah, you're constantly researching, you're constantly building. Yeah. Storytelling, et cetera. That's almost in the DNA of who you are and what you need to be to be able to add value to that role. Totally. And then I think the other thing with me is I've never felt, I never did feel confident in my own skin. So growing up, I had really, really, really tricky skin, like full-blown acne. Which is so interesting because you have the most perfect skin now. That is thanks to the beauty industry, quite literally, which we can talk about.

10:12But people, when people say, oh, you know, what you use in your skin, it's great. I don't think they realize what that means to me. Because the journey I went on was so grueling to get to where I was that on so many occasions, I would just stare in the mirror and be like, this is not the job for me. Like, who's ever going to listen to me? Like, you know, you can't write a beauty column and have spots. And that's the kind of things I used to say to myself. And little did I know that I was going to become the beauty editor, the non-glossy beauty editor, which I'm so proud of that the first beauty editor to be like yes chin hair spot hair hair like you know whatever it is I've talked about it yeah and you add what you do so well is is the realness that you add to it and the kind of like what you what you've built up is just so so incredible like if you recommend a product I'm getting it and you've all you've always been that person and I suppose you're known today for being one of the most trusted voices in beauty which must feel like you say that girl in the mirror that's like what what do I know if I've got this skin who's going to listen to me is I mean is a real kind of is a is a 360 isn't it how do you build credibility in an industry that's that a at some point for you personally you maybe didn't feel like you had that belonging but also it's such a saturated industry how do you build credibility when there's so much noise one I think it's time I think everybody's trying to do everything so quickly yes time slow down credibility comes from trust and I think it comes from authority and you don't get authority overnight so don't do everything at once like hone in on what you're passionate about and build credibility in that you can't do it all even though it feels like everyone else is doing it all I mean you're the exception because you arguably are doing it all some days I'm not doing I'm really not doing it all that that there will welcome to the world of social media it feels like you are killing it in so many different I mean it always does for everyone though don't you and I think it just is like I mean we say a lot on here that like comparison is the thief of joy yeah and I just I post the highlights because if so bad was happening I'm too busy trying to fix what's going on in the present where I'm kind of posting a a night out for dinner and that might have been a week ago you know it's I'm not really ever in real time as it were and I like it that way yes I can live a life totally it is it it is like it sucks the joy of life if you get somewhere and you think you've got to quickly like tell tell the internet where like what you're enjoying in that very moment it's also hard right like I'm also fortunate I have people that help me with that and you know creating content I will always say this and I stand by this people think that it's the easiest job in the world it's become like the new you know oh it's easy to be a content creator or it's easy to be an influencer you know what do you do just take pictures and post them I'm like it's really hard like it's hard it's hard to be I like to create stuff I love the kind of look at like a nice feed and like the aesthetic that's like my thing but to cap you know for us being here for instance who's gonna see we're here unless we take content well we're busy doing this so it's having your eyes across everything at once it's almost impossible my husband is an agent and he says the amount of people that walk in and say to him I'm gonna do this and I really want to do this on social media and I really want it and he says we'll go and do it and then come back yeah everyone's got these ideas of what they want to do but that consistency and that being able to do it every day it's a full-time job and that's the bit that's tough yes it's the consistency keeping it consistent absolutely I couldn't agree more I mean I've digressed yes sorry credibility no no it's me it's me I suppose time like you say is something like it's our most valuable asset but it's something that we really overlook like in a world where everyone wants it now everybody it's a very like Instagram, the whole definition is supposed to be instant, right?

14:18Even though I'm saying I don't really do much in the present, but that is the point. We want access to everything now. And it means that when we see things happening, we've got an unrealistic, I suppose, idea of how long it takes to become an expert in your field or how long it takes to be a trusted voice. So for you, do you think, I mean, it's got to be more than time because there could be somebody that doesn't know what they're talking about that's really going for it for a while. That is true. Let's give yourself a bit more credit than just time. Time would be the first factor. I think also, I think what I was saying about authority and expertise, it's that idea of really learn what you're talking about because you can see when someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

14:59But they might have 8 million followers and a brand just thinks, oh, let's tap into their followers. And then you see them talk about a really complex skincare product and you just think, oh, yes. Do you know what PDRN is? or you know you didn't pronounce azelaic acid right or it's a tricky one you know because I get it they want to tap into these this new audience but you've you've got to be able to know what you're talking about confidently there's a fine line between passion and knowledge I suppose too isn't there of course you can be passionate and excited about something but it doesn't mean that you're perhaps the best to be talking on it totally and then I think the main thing is with credibility is saying no if something isn't right for you don't do it like it's very very tempting I know that there's money on the table for so many people but I say no every day I just and it's you know I've got two kids I've got a family I've got things I want I want to do and live my best life but think long game always think I think credibility is thinking long game yeah take it slowly think long game what is the goal because if you rush it and you say yes to things that don't align with what you truly believe in it's going to end quicker than you would want it to yes and someone always said to me um it was a journalist who said picture your mother at home buying the product you're talking about would you want her to spend her money on it so now every time I'm about to recommend something I think my mom was going to buy that what I want her to part with that money yeah and I quite like that yeah because then I I second you know I second guess at all like don't just say you love it like someone's gonna go and spend their money on it and I think that is the difference between sort of a beauty editor and a trusted respected beauty editor and you know it's so interesting I always use the analogy where I say to myself we both work on this morning right and I say okay if I was sat on the other side of the sofa and I was being interviewed, would I be able to sit and have an, like confidently and really, you know, truthfully, sincerely have an eight minute conversation about this product or about this brand or about, and it really does shape the decisions that I make.

17:12Like I, like you say no way more than I say yes. And I do think there's something that has come for me with age that I've been way more confident to do so. Um, but that's, that's my thing. I'm like, okay, if someone said to me right so how when when you got that phone call how did it feel and what does it mean to you and what what involvement do you have with this I have to be able to back this and believe it myself and if I don't feel like I can sell it to people because I don't like it then it's not for me that is the main thing like you have to be so passionate about it if you're a bit half-hearted or you're like I always call it box ticking I can see when someone is being like it's amazing because it's recyclable and then i'll question it i'll say i know you said it's recyclable but it's got a mirror in the compact and the mirror mirrors aren't recyclable and then they're like oh my god yes be careful with box ticking and be careful with trying to win people over with something and it feels like a buzzword yeah you've got to community is the new the new buzzword right so people like oh we do this for the community i'm like okay but what what who is your who are they who you know and I think it's become so many brands it's so incredibly well and then the ones that do have really done that authentically but now it's become the thing that every brand wants is that community but it's kind of like how are you paying forward to the community that you speak so highly of you know um the other thing I think that you that you really need and one thing I really noticed with you is that point of difference like you sort of touched before on the fact that you were kind of bringing to a space that is glossy a real non-glossy approach do you think that that instantly connected with people yes I think you can definitely categorize different beauty editors so there'll be the beauty editors that have loved fragrances their whole life and they live for it and they remember the first fragrance they spritz you know it's a whole beautiful story and then you get the beauty editors that are madly, madly connected with hair.

19:13And they actually go and train to be hairdressers because they want to learn more about it. And I think for me, I sort of dabbled in everything. I thought, I love this. I love that. And then I did this video where it was all about my life with tricky skin as a beauty editor. And I said, can I do it with no makeup? I just think, well, you've put all this makeup on me and no one can actually see it. And the room, they were like, I don't know if that's very on brand like you're a beauty editor I was like do you mind I'd feel better I would like the girls a girl at home or a boy at home what who's watching this to see yeah and relate to see yeah but it wasn't at the time where that was the done thing now that would be part of the brief and they'd ask you to do that now I think you'd have to yeah yeah but when I was at that stage it was around 2018 everything was a glossy filter like everything we you know it's the Paris filter.

20:04There wasn't sort of this world of showing people. You know how you even said, though, your Instagram, like it looks beautiful. I don't know how to do that because I think everything is a bit messy and blurred because that's my personality. I've never been able to make it look. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it does look great. No. I need tips. I mean, I'm just there. I literally post what I like. and I post I think but that's because you but it comes so naturally to you in the sense of you've got good taste says says the editor but I think that's I think that's my thing I am the non-glossy editor yes who uh who sort of I get the kick and the buzz of being like this you know this hair took an hour and a half I do know I never wake up like this yes everything takes time the journey with my skin, the journey with my hair, you know, I'm a nail biter.

21:01Nails are not real. Yes. So I think it's that it's the problem solving side that has really, really made me tick and made me connect with people. It's sort of like when you think of Devil Wears Prada, it's, you know, it's that was the magazine industry. And I think when I started, everything was eight tips to, you know flush for spring and it was like a one-way conversation no one was talking back to you and that is where social media has been so incredible for so many of us because suddenly it's a it's a two-way conversation like do you find that with your brands that you can now ask people advice like oh 100 yes what you're doing with skincare like yeah yeah you must be having the most incredible conversations it's incredible and and i'm actually really i'm it's not just like lip service or for like effects like I'm actually making decisions based on involving people early on and I actually love that I love it so much which is and it's kind of a new it's even a new approach for me doing it on a skincare project because it is so early and it's so up front but I've really enjoyed it and then I'm taking those learnings to meeting and saying well hang on people are actually saying that and it's like an incredible focus group that's it it's that like now when I think oh what should I what should I write about in my column this week I go through my dms and I'm like oh everyone's asking about yes you know frizzy hair because it's raining or everyone's asking about fake tan because it's May and that's what everyone wants to know at this time of year it is so useful for that back and forth conversation because I can only imagine right like you said the dms and like the questions that you get asked you know at different times of the year and but I can also imagine the amount of products that get sent your way um and the amount of people that want you to just try it to see if you like it I suppose and hope that you might share those views with your followers you know through your column now your book how do you sort of cut through product hype because one thing I think people really associate with you is is just that your ability to cut through the noise and say listen this is great but actually it's this it's still this that I've used for years and you know it's a cheaper one but it's still going to be the best product how do you decide and I know that you've got the mum theory but how do you decide for you what sort of genuinely worth recommending I think having access to the top dermatologists or the top hairstylists is one of the best ways to learn and understand a bit more.

23:43So I always say when we started out, when I started out in skincare, I would say things like firming or, you know, youth in a jar or miracles. And, oh, that sounds nice. I'll have a bit of all of that. And then the more you talk to these brilliant, brilliant experts, you know, I call consultant dermatologists, I call them skincare fairy godmothers because they've studied the science of skin and when you understand that it's not all about labels it's about one plus one equals two with skin for example when you talk to them and they advise you on products you start to learn you start to learn how to read labels you start to learn where where different ingredients come in different products like it is so interesting to understand the inky list like what's on a product because marketing is going to tell you it's botox in a bottle worst phrase in the world that should be banned that is illegal sorry i had to vent there no i i so know what you mean because you see now like and it really does sort of like prey on a you know a demographic because if my mom saw that she'd buy it absolutely it's supposed to be great you know they've said this is like botox in a bottle yeah wrinkle eraser yes yes non-toxic like all these phrases don't mean anything so once i learned how to sort of get rid of all the marketing talk and get to the bottom of it.

25:04And the way I get to the bottom of it is one, I've learned how to read an ingredients list. Two, I've learned to ask the founder the right questions. So how was it made? Where was it made? What are the quantities? Who is it right for? If it's right for a particular skin type that isn't me, I know exactly who I want to give it to to try. And then I've, what did I say? Yeah, founders. And then always someone unbiased. So a founder will say everything to me and I'll be like, oh, I think I'm in. And then I'll just check with one other person and be like, can I check? She said it could do this. Like, can it definitely do this?

25:40And then if they give me the go ahead, I feel confident to review. That's like six layers. There's a lot of steps. Before I feel confident. And I will say that is more with skincare and hair care. Hair care is one of my real bugbears because I think there is so much over-promising for an industry which can make someone feel very vulnerable. So if someone's got thinning hair or, you know, fine hair that they feel very self-conscious about and a product says 24 times volume. Or full of hair in how many washes. Yeah. Stop it. Like this product is a washout shampoo. It can't do that. I also find it so interesting because I obviously know being in that toiletry space that claims are so, you have to be so careful when it comes to what claims you're making on like front or back of pack.

26:28Like I find it, I've just, yeah, I find it super interesting. And I also know that you can do kind of research and like testing and you could say 99 % of women say that they found X, Y, Z as a, you know, as a claim or whatever that is. but it could be based on a panel of 10 women and nine have said oh yeah I suppose it's a bit of a difference you know I hate the idea that just like as you said that people would think this is going to change their life and I also think there's a we have a big responsibility as founders as brands to kind of make sure that we we're not competing with the dermatologist we're not it isn't that And I think there's a lot of lip service, isn't there, when it comes to claims and over-promising and under-delivering, I suppose, ultimately.

27:22There is a whole chapter on that in the hair section because I see it all the time. It's that subject where men will feel so self-conscious about a receding hairline or something like that, and there'll be all these ads saying, this footballer managed to fix it with this shampoo. And I'm like, don't do that because these men are spending so much money. And what they should do is go and get one consultation with a top trichologist. Know why the receding hairline is happening. Is it temporary? Is it permanent? What are my options? Do I need minoxidil? What are the best things to do before I spend a fortune on something that social media is just sending me?

28:06Because they know I've been Googling it. Yes, yes. And of course, they know that my favorite football player is now front in the, you know, it's kind of, it's particularly now with algorithms and what you get served. It's actually alarming. And I am, weirdly, I'm like in that space and I know how this works, but I still will go, oh, I mean, mine tells you a lot about my algorithm. It's like frying pans and really random stuff. Mine's kids' bedrooms. I cannot get their bedroom right. Right. So I keep looking at like how people put like the paintings on the walls and things and art and everything I add just doesn't look quite right.

28:41So I keep searching it and I'm like, what's happened to me? Yeah, what's happening? We went to the London Marathon at the weekend. All I'm getting is like these moving videos of people crossing the finish line and I'm like in. That's it. Frying pans and marathons. Congrats. That's all I'm getting. What do you think are the biggest red flags when it comes to beauty products or I suppose more so like trends in that space? because trends in beauty, it's very different to sort of trends in makeup, isn't it? And I think I see that and there might be a look. I mean, scared the fact that everyone's now shaved.

29:12Have you seen that? Shaving the end of their brow. Please don't do that. What is this new thing? It's like the end of the brow is coming off. I mean, you get like a sort of lifted look, don't you? Because they lose the end of it and it's like, it looks almost facelift-esque. But I'm like, girl, please. And also that's never going to grow back. um so i think but i can understand that it's makeup feels a bit more like fashion smoky eyes are in then they're out then no one's wearing lashes and then you know lip liners in and then it's just gloss i get that but when it comes to sort of beauty and skincare do trends worry you or do trends excite you i think as long as you can take a trend with a bit of a pinch of salt so not every trend is for everyone so glass skin for example it made a lot of sense on social media because the ring light would hit in the perfect place.

30:02And I just see these girls out and about. I'm like, I think she's like poured like water on her face. She looks wet. Like her upper lip. Like also you've got to know where to put the product. Someone came up to me and was like, why do you recommend that highlighter? It looks like I've got a sweaty upper lip. I was like, why are you putting highlighter on your upper lip? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So trends, you've got to get it right. And it's got to make you feel good. You don't have to do every trend. Yes. And I think also, like I always say, it depends on what it's for. So try maybe not to do trends when it comes to a wedding day or a really big event.

30:34Like go with what you know, go with what you love. I always say take pictures of when you loved your makeup. Yes. You know, there's that old tip of like, take pictures of celebrities of where their hair look great to a hairstylist so they can understand what you want. Fine. But also, when did you love your hair? Yes. Like at a party or an event. Because you've got a different hair type. and a different face shape and your hair's gonna sit differently yeah it's gonna hold differently yeah be careful make it make sense for you yeah yeah so i think do both do both but listen trends trends is a funny old word because i think the average person at home doesn't feel that connected to trends it's more of an industry thing in that sense um take just take the ones that feel right to you but don't spend loads of money because as we know trends come and go i always say if you're in if you're in a retailer and there's like you know there's loads of areas which are like what's trending now that that that's gonna change by next week so don't buy it all yeah like pick something try it go slow yes there's always that trending on social bit isn't it which i love i get stuck but you're right it's very of like it's very of now and it doesn't if you're going to invest maybe don't focus on on that aisle um I want to talk about social media and kind of your role as a beauty editor.

32:00When it comes to social media, do you feel like more responsibility now than you did back then? I suppose because you're having that direct communication with people too, has it changed your approach? And do you feel a different level of responsibility? So I guess if I'm being very, very open on how it all went, when I started as a beauty editor, they were like the jobs everybody wanted to be an editor you know it was the devil wears pride aware it was it was the job like the you know the wow factor to get it and then social media started and the world of the influencer began and I remember watching beauty editors not and fashion editors and just editors in general being like oh what are they doing like that's not cool it was even like that in like the celebrity space like it was seen like it was deemed it was like a dirty it was almost like oh no and I think it's just change you know one really understands it right totally yeah and I remember them sort of putting their noses up to it being like you know that's not a cool thing to do and then a few editors caught on that maybe it's quite a cool thing to do and actually we don't want to get left behind not everyone yes and a lot of editors in some way did end up getting left behind because they refused to acknowledge this digital space yes and social media arrived with a bang and I think I you have to find your place on it don't you in that sense and it opened up this door definitely for editors where suddenly we went sort of from being these behind the but behind the glass doors to showing our personalities and that was my my whole thing on this morning is Holly came on to do a video with me for the times and the editor of this morning at the time was like oh she's fun on camera let's get her on to do beauty and then that was it so it opened so many doors for people that it's done the most incredible things like the only way it used to be to get a job was sit and apply and wait you don't have to wait for anyone anymore like your feed or your you know your sub stack or your any channel you want that is now your cv i say it to people all the time you don't have to wait it's so don't wait for them to answer the phone you know reply to the email just get going with like with like sort of having that sort of like i said direct comms with people and i suppose being a little bit more in touch because you aren't like you say you're almost a little bit far removed when you're writing these articles you're doing it based on being around and asking people and etc and and your opinion but do you do you have you noticed whilst being sort of online that how much beauty really does impact confidence for people I mean you know yourself from the journey that you've had with your skin etc but have you really sort of did that was did that alarm you and did that really make you think oh gosh this is this is more than just this is great try it works this is this really means a lot to people one of the most important things that I wanted to do in this book was answer letters from real people because I have basically spent my career trying to say to people feeling good about your reflection is so important we look at ourselves most of the day whether it's on a zoom call on a facetime and most people do this with their hair yeah and like don't want to look at themselves because it's been drummed into all of us that caring about what you see is vain you know frivolous nonsense you know beauty is all like swishy blow dries and don't waste your time on that there's so many more important things in the world but then you read these letters and there's the letter from the woman who's lost her eyebrows from chemo and I've

36:00Sarah Jossel: helped her learn how to draw her brows back on and how she can finally look at herself in the mirror again because she sees herself again and the mother whose son doesn't want to leave the house because he's embarrassed of his skin and it's that world of it's it's problem solving again but it's tackling these issues that feel silly because it's skin and hair and makeup but it is so much deeper than that yes and we talk I talk about mental health in the book how if I can help one person walk a little bit taller or hold their head up high or say that's a nice picture of me like it feels so good to be able to like what you see you're so right and I think we're sort of taught that it's like silly and vain and not like at what point did that even happen that we're to sort of care about your appearance isn't kind of what matters in life well if that really does impact you mentally and how you show up and how you put one foot in front of the other then how have we become a society that would judge but it is I know what you mean it's seen as like caring about silly things.

37:03I think it's quite a British thing as well. Like it's very, if you say to an American woman, you look great. She's like, oh, thanks. I just had a blow dry. Yes. Whereas if you say to a British person, you look great. They're like, oh no, I haven't washed my hair. I'm such a mess. I got ready in such a rush today. No one wants to be told they look good because then it means they cared and they made an effort and then that means they're vain or they spent, you know, and it's such an interesting. And it's so interesting where you lose that because if I said to my daughter, I'd go, Vali, you look beautiful today or allow you look so gorgeous they would both be like oh thanks I know I love this dress mom and I'm gonna wear this again I'm gonna wear it and it it's weird we lose that in age too that because at some point that comes I don't know across as arrogant it's deemed as kind of like you love yourself if you actually acknowledge it and say oh I know thanks I it is exactly this so I talk about how my daughter Grace is three and we were in the park and she saw a mirror you know one of those funny like the mirrors that make you distorted and she loved and she like walked towards it and she was like my nose and she was and that moment of me just watching her I thought when do we go from being so carefree about what we see in this mirror to having such complex relationships with our reflections I don't know it's I think society has a part to play and it's just as you grow older I think I even think my eldest will nearly be 13 I can already see it with her like i know i don't well when you just said she's three i thought god that's i just remember you being pregnant that's crazy um but you think there is i can notice it with her a little bit like do you think i should wear this or do you not and i can there's like the trends at school that the clothes that people are wearing to parties and i'm like do you actually like that like of course like if you want to wear that wear it but i i can tell she doesn't and she feels like she's got to because that's what the girls are wearing you know and i think oh gosh i can already see it you're at the age it's coming I know it's horrid it's horrid um you just you touched on the book there but I want to deep dive into the book because it's your debut book which is very very exciting I always feel debut sounds like there's many more coming this this almost killed me so I'm not sure well I was talking of that there's there's so much of your experience here I've you know 20 years of experience but it's taken quite some time to get to this point hasn't it over four years yeah um to be at this stage that we're seeing the book in all of its glory talk us about the process of building the book so well I think it was almost I've said four because I was embarrassed to say five but we're all friends here so five years uh my husband was like have you ever thought of writing a book and I think he's never regretted questioning that more because what then ended up was five years of him me saying can you take the kids and I can write this book he's like yeah I thought this might take you yeah he was like I thought it was gonna be like six months um so what I've really done with this book is poured everything I know about beauty and what's been really interesting when I read it back is the different versions of me in this book so when I started writing it I didn't have kids wow I wasn't married I was quite like I'm gonna do anything in life and you know my time was mine my world was mine I could write on weekends and then got married had two daughters in the time of writing this so the pregnant person writing this was like stomping away feeling hot and bothered and nothing looked right and I can see her in it and then there is the new mum and I struggled quite a lot after Ivy I was quite low and I didn't understand sort of where I belonged yeah this new me and I just couldn't really look at myself a lot and she's in there a lot which I hope will resonate with new mums because it doesn't look like that from the outside but you know someone said I had no idea you were going through that because maybe I'm not that good at you know talking about that online but it's in there I found it much easier to write it yes say it yeah and sometimes there's like there's pressure you know we said before pressure with being so present when you're not in a good place sometimes it's easier to talk about it after the fact you know and that's not the case for everyone but I'm certainly that person yeah I've dealt with it I can and I will you know and now I'll tell you all about it.

41:29But I need a minute to be in the trenches and deal with it. It's like when people do those videos and they're crying. I don't get it. I can't. I need, why is the camera on? I actually don't like it. I'm going to be honest. I get uncomfortable. I don't like it. I don't like watching it. I don't like, I just, I think at that time, what, why do you, what world do we in where you actually think, okay, I'm going to pick up my phone. And cry for the strangers online. who yeah then it's like a netflix i don't i don't know i just i don't get it and maybe listen we're all searching for different things right but like i just there's just a part of me that feels like that's sad that that's like i'd rather and maybe like i say this is the privileges of saying like i've got a girlfriend that i can call and be like i'm having a shit i need to talk to you a minute or a husband that i can and that i get that that is a privilege to have a tight village around you but i just feel like it's i don't know if it feels performative or i know it just doesn't it's just I don't feel like I should be consuming it.

42:29Like we've all become desensitized. And I feel like, oh, God, I've really interrupted something personal here. I feel exactly the same. So then that was it. So I haven't spoken about all my feelings through these times. So what I could do, though, is I could write about it. And I could get it in the book at a time that felt right. And even up to the day before I was going to print, I was like, do you know what? I just want to tell people about how I felt going back to work after maternity. because that was a whole new world putting on makeup for work versus putting on makeup as a new mom and that was really amazing for me to get off my chest because people think makeup is tricky and it's difficult to do and you've got to be a makeup artist or you've got to be a celebrity because it's all very glamorous you know red lip or a cat you know a cat eye and I'm like do you know how helpful makeup can be just dabbing something onto a spot that you feel uncomfortable about or dark circles or just brushing up your brows or quickly putting a red lip on actually makes you look like you've made a lot of effort and you haven't yes like so so with their you know i call it functional makeup there's so much of that it's not a very sexy word i feel like no but it makes perfect sense to me yeah the school run makeup you don't want to look that bad but you also don't have 10 hours to do and i also don't want to look like i'm going to the club at school yeah like rochelle has arrived yeah yeah i don't i don't want do you know what's so funny at my school they either see me straight from work which i've always made an effort for work or they see me before I've had any any glam so it's like from one extreme to the other people like whoa I didn't recognize her today or whoa she's really made an effort like there's no middle ground for me at the school it's like strutting in straight from here or it's just like yeah gym gear and that's all totally pajamas so I think that's it with the book it's talking about all the things I haven't been able to talk about yes and then it's also I am so aware of who else needs to be spoken to so i get so many messages from 70 year old women 70 to the industry might be like oh well we don't need to talk to them women are in their prime in their seven you know my mom is turning 70 this year her and her friends are living their best lives like they are your customer like you go into space and okay they've got them they've got the income now they're spending you're so right like speak to them don't forget these people based on their age It's not like 30 years ago, you know, never write a book or write a column and not think about the 70-year-old, the 80-year-old, the 90-year-old.

44:57Like, they still want to be spoken to. Of course. So they're in there. The teenagers are in there because social media is a frightening place. And it means that we all worry about beauty way younger. Like, no one's having this awkward phase anymore. Like, what happened to the awkward phase? You know, like certain pictures that you're like, Mum, oh my gosh, how did you let me leave the house like that? There isn't that phase for our youngsters now. It's all just like straight A glamour. It's straight A glamour, but it's also so scary because they have such unrealistic expectations. Like I always say I'm 39 and I'm getting fooled.

45:32So someone will be like amazing nails and I'll screenshot the colours. I'll go and request it and that colour will not look like that. Yes. Because it was a filter and it went through amazing light when they took it. Like we're all getting fooled. imagine what teenagers are going through thinking oh oh I want that influencer's eyeshadow and it looks nothing like that on them so I basically my my strapline to teenagers is nothing you see is real like just remember that yes every day everything you look at nothing you see is real it's and you know what I love that you're saying that because it's so I do count my lucky stars that I wasn't raised in the social media generation but we're now going to parent through that and that's a whole i'm hoping it was gonna die soon yeah do you know what that's what i i even said that about blake because he's five i'm like well the but the time that he's sort of 15 it's gonna be you know that how everyone's using like digital cameras again because that the images are cool i'm like hopefully we'll be so like back to this analog life there was a there was this um girl that i know she's actually brought out this like it wasn't a nokia 210 but it looked like that and i was like bring that back oh my gosh i miss blackberry yes not nokia 2110 yeah could change the covers the covers oh yeah they were they're old yes the blackberry was good because you could do an email from it there was a button for everything yeah and you had like to almost bbm was a bit whatsappist yeah wasn't it sorry and you get someone's pin you wouldn't need the number don't get too close to me just the pin will do and then like it was just enough so i'm yeah i will happily start a campaign to bring back a blackberry i would i'd convert tomorrow that's the next collab rochelle blackberry that probably just doesn't exist anymore um when you look back on your career obviously to be a position to write a book sat on 20 years of experience is is so incredible but when you look back on your career and sort of everything that's happened and that you've achieved alongside of it like the great opportunities the tv the everything in between what advice would you give to someone that's sort of trying to build a voice that people trust I think you have to find your voice first so don't speak until you have found your voice that's so interesting yeah I love that yes it's it goes back to that it's so loud out there and everyone I don't know if you feel this it feels like everyone is shouting it is so loud and there is so much noise and you really have to sift through the noise to to find someone who that speaks to you or someone that you can align with, find your voice first, really work out who you are and what you want to say, and then try it.

48:17You know, you, you know, figure out different paths that you feel feels right to you. There's that whole thing of intuition of like, you know, when you're doing something, there's an example that I always give that there's a brand called QV. Um, and it's not like a sexy brand. It's not a social media brand, but it has been a game changer for I've got eczema prone skin my daughters have eczema prone skin and we all use it's like the product that we all use um for our eczema prone skin and I was so excited to work with them because I use it yes and I was like that is so aligned it's so connected it's so perfect find your voice of what you feel really passionate about and you are much more likely to go far than finding someone else's voice and doing what they're doing because they're doing well in it Yes, yes, you're so right.

49:07And it's like, there's that real kind of movement for that at the minute that everyone's like, okay, when we look at like founder led content, they're like, okay, I'm just going to start talking about being a founder. And it's, which is brilliant. We've seen some brilliant founders do so and almost launch themselves because they've been so open, transparent about what it is they're doing about the ups, the downs, the highs, the lows. But now there's a pressure that every founder feels like they have to share everything. so it's like no if you if you don't do it because it's working for them do it because it's what you love to do and you're passionate about telling and only do it if you have the time to do it because whatever you are the founder of probably needs you more than trying to do what everyone else is doing yes and as you said you know get the team in place to do it you probably can't do it all on your own even though it feels like oh it's all raw and candid for most people it's not that I was just about to say, if you think it is, it's probably not.

50:01It's probably not because it takes time out of the day to be able to do everything that, like you say, would mean that they're missing the job in hand, which I think we're all fooled, aren't we, a lot of the time with what we see online? And it's just remembering that most of the time we are all being fooled in like a lovely way. I love what I sort of subscribe to. I love what I'm listening. I love what I'm consuming. but you kind of just have to have you know we've we've been there we work in telly we know that like how angles look and we know like how big people think the studio is they get in they're like oh I thought it was so much bigger than this like everything is a little bit like it's a perception of yeah so just take everything with a pinch of salt totally and I also you know when I we did um we had this dinner for the book last night and there was some of the founders came with social media managers and they walked in and they showed the crowd and they came up to me and they said hold the book say this do this get the mics out and then other founders just watch being like how how does this work yes it's it's a whole new world out there it really and we're finding our way and you just have to be sort of a sponge and ask like everything like ask everyone's advice and kind of not don't expect that you're supposed to know it totally because it's a job within itself we've made it like like i said we've made it come across like it's this thing that's easy for everyone to do because you everyone's got an iphone right so we can film it and we can post it like it's a job within itself and it's a tough one do you know what's actually brilliant and it must be my algorithm but people keep popping up that say i used to work for so and so and this is all the kit that i love it yeah i love it and i'm like i love this like sharing no gatekeeping it's like this is the tripod you need this is that i think people who do content like that need to just go to the top of the list.

51:47Agreed. Like not gatekeeping a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is how, if you want, if you want to do great, like bathroom get ready with me, which I suppose for you is, this is the light you need. This is how you grip it on. I'm like straight in Amazon basket. I know. And it was such a small thing. Someone was like, turn off the extractor fan. And I was like, that's what was wrong with all my videos. There was like this annoying. And I just kept thinking like, I don't know. It's like, you know, it's such an obvious thing. It all makes sense. You only know if you know, right? I want to do our rocket round now.

52:18Okay. Which I love this part because we ask each of our guests the same questions. And everyone's answers are always really varied. So I like it. I haven't prepped this. I'm warning you. This is scary. Okay. The first one I'm going to ask you is in what you do. And, you know, if somebody is listening to this and they would long to be a beauty editor, what do you believe are the non-negotiables for being so? i would say sticking to what you believe in so don't promote something or rave about something unless you are a hundred percent consistency with your beliefs is the most important thing so have the same opinion i've i've said from day one clean beauty means nothing non-toxic means nothing with you I will never if a brand stands for that I can't I can't do a huge push with you because I think you're confusing the person buying it I knew it's supposed to be quick fire I do this every time no no it's me I'm so interested in this because I'm so with you yeah and I'm I find this it's I find it's such a kind of marketing spiel so just give me just from like your expert opinion when it comes to this like clean you know this you know non-toxic that can you just explain your kind of like your breakdown of this and what you think because i think it's so noisy there's all these apps now that are like scan it means it's bad don't get started well they make me so angry yeah so let's put it out there la roche posay which quite literally saves people's skin from every sort of sensitivity and allergy and irritation they're not clean so are we calling them dirty like if they don't get the marks on a clean app should we not use them well it happens to us sometimes with baby products i'm like do you know the level of testing that we have to have our products and it's not like anything we have any influence over it's a third it's a third party board of you know scientists experts in their field and we've had a couple of products that that rate poorly on yucca or one of these apps and i'm like it's because of a preservative that we use which is quite literally that and it's but also they're not taking the quantity the quantities exactly to account so the level that you have to have yeah it doesn't it's not back to anything because if they say it's got this amount in and that this is why but they don't take any quantities into consideration so there's a there's a chapter in the book where I talk about how I wish clean beauty was called transparent beauty or informed beauty.

55:02And what that means is the brand is being honest and informing the consumer on how they built their brand. And then the consumer can decide, okay, they make their product in this country. They do it through this process. It's got these ingredients. So yes, it's for me. It needs to be like a flow chart. Yes. If you like this, go here. If you like this, go there. by me it shouldn't like clean it was just a very interesting marketing word that has zero regulation yeah so if we go through it so informed and transparent would be my dream non-toxic okay non-toxic's just stupid because i actually can't even go it does it there's zero there's zero definition for non-toxic i don't know what that means chemical free again is so stupid because air and water and everything's a chemical so that's also so stupid um we found my thing haven't we that's really made me mad um then we can do natural people love to say it's natural and there's a lot of founders who will say i my um we made this in my grandmother's farm and it's got the mud from the soil where the plant grew and it look at her skin now completely unregulated so it might be a really lovely romantic story but it's not it's not gone through any sort of testing it doesn't have to go through it that's what I mean it might have but it doesn't have to go through any of the testing to stick the word natural on it like poison ivy is natural you don't really want to put that on no thanks no thanks um I think I yeah I think those are like the main ones and obviously clean beauty I do get it I get what they're trying to do they're saying it hasn't got specific ingredients in it but those ingredients aren't necessarily fad in the quantities that they're in and I also think it's constantly changing it's constantly evolving I remember that when we when we launched My Little Coco there was such a big sort of movement for not having parabens and sulfates and that was like what everyone was shouting about and My Little Coco doesn't have parabens and sulfates but that was like the big kind of movement at the time and then it became this kind of real clean beauty movement which and you know and then an app launched and then it's telling everyone certainly you know I that one of the apps says that Sudocrem the product that we've had for 500 ,000 years isn't safe and it's like do you know what it takes to go to sit on a shelf at retail like it's kind of like it's so misleading and I think it's so interesting because it really is a marketing story there'll be something else soon and some of those ingredients will become part of the clean club and then they will have to reformulate because if their guidelines are to stick with this clean beauty that isn't a thing they're going to have to keep that moving because there'll be a new ingredient that's now a trend that now isn't deemed clean there's it's misinformation I think social media has been incredible for opening the doors to so many voices but as a result everyone's so much misinformation out there when you are feeling stuck or confused go to the experts and by that I actually mean the consultant dermatologist for skin the trichologist for hair the top makeup artists who are also now makeup founders because they are explaining it on their channels which is what is amazing don't listen to your neighbor or your friend unless they happen to be one of these experts you know don't don't just listen to your favorite influencer necessarily try and go to an unbiased expert loads of them do ask me any things on instagram like ask your questions yes like caroline hirons is a great one yeah she'll she's i mean she's very open and honest about her feelings on those apps because if she was here and we're talking clean beauty she'd be throwing she gets so stressed i've spoke to her about it she's like don't even rile me up don't say the words but it's so it's so interesting and like you say that every that's you know over lockdown we all became chefs because we made banana bread right it's it's the same sort of thing where it's like everyone's an expert and of course it's great because voices like yourself can add so much value to add value to this but not everybody's does so it's knowing where the experts are and finding them not just someone that's heard and tried something it's also this is the worst quick fire round you've ever had i know when it i know what i was gonna just say is the two areas that people really struggle with is pregnancy and cancer and what products to use and clean beauty has absolutely confused and muddled those two stages of life because now if you're pregnant you're nervous enough as is oh my gosh and now there's all these things you can't use this you can't use that i've been using this shower gel for the past how many months does that mean i've done you know it's very i've had people calling up sending me messages on instagram crying saying now it says ask a health practitioner if I can use this body cream and it's like of course you can use that body cream like don't worry so there there is that in the book too or what you can use in pregnancy and cancer because with cancer that is the area where you're now at the worst stage of your entire life you've got this diagnosis and you'll go online and there'll be someone saying I had it and cut out this don't use that don't do this and again go to the expert so there is this whole list of products that experts say are fine to use right that can be so helpful and it's okay to talk about beauty products when you have cancer so it seems like that seems like nonsense and frivolous but it can be so important to be able to look at yourself yes yes absolutely that it makes perfect sense and I'm always like like you say a little bit taboo like you know let's not mention beauty right now but actually You know, let's.

1:00:44And here's how you do it. It's so good that you've included that. Right, I'm going to go to our second question. But we'll keep these quick because that's my fault. I just wanted to divert because I know that you're passionate about that. When was the moment that you first realized that you truly launched? When I got my column at Sunday Times Style. For the Sunday Times, you know, an establishment like that to say, we want your voice every single Sunday. for me was the moment where I thought okay I've got this I can do this yeah I bet I'm good at what I do yeah yeah yeah exactly that sort of like seal of stamp of approval even though like you you know what you're saying is valuable but it's weird it's what we do as people to have like you say like Sunday time stuff like it's huge it's it's a real huge thing them to go yes it's you we're committing to totally I think I'm turning 40 this year and I am really working on trying to not get my validation from other you know companies and other people booking me for things because i think we're in that world where a lot of what we do a lot of the time is based on people sort of saying would you like this not would you like this you've got the gig yes and then you feel you it's a hit of serotonin isn't it like oh i've been booked and i'm really working on it yes of also like knowing i'm great at what i do even when it's not a busy month or you know that kind of thing as well yeah yeah for sure um what is the first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed well i've got a one-year-old and a three-year-old so i don't they they dictate what i do first thing in the morning but normally we we stretch it out we hear them talking we're like i think they they're in the same they're in the same room so i'm like let's see how long yeah see if i can quickly have a shower yes yeah just get a cup of tea in quickly um and before bed i spritz very beauty editor tell me my um this works pillow spray so good i love yeah and i love if i have the time and the energy a bath before bed and there is a brand by do you know you the lady the woman kath kidston she's got a brand called sea athlete right they are bath oils and but she's changed my life they transport you to an outer body experience where you just it forces you to take deep breaths and I'm a terrible breather so I just lie there I'll either have a bath or I'll just pop her um then like a pure oil onto my pulse points and I'll just take a deep breath and it will be like yes okay add to basket yes I mean that sounds incredible what's one piece of advice that you wish you hadn't listened to that you have to look perfect when you do everything it was always the way as a beauty editor and as a result I never thought I was good enough to be a beauty editor because I was so far from perfect in my eyes of what I saw so I struggled I struggled with my reflection I struggled with what I saw in the mirror and I I berated myself so much for not looking the part and I wish I knew sooner that actually you were going to get your break when you were far more honest with your internal struggles Wow.

1:04:01Yeah, that's so interesting. So, so interesting. What is a skill that you'd love to learn? So when I first saw that question, I thought, well, I'll definitely say cooking because I'm the worst cook. I feel like I'd be so much more of a catch if like my husband could come home and I'd be like, here, darling. You're already married, girl. You're right. Poor guy. But actually, I wish I could do my daughter's hair. I am so bad at it. Like I'm a beauty editor who can't do my daughter's hair. So we have the best nanny in the world. And each morning they come down for nursery. She's done their hair. And I'm like, wow.

1:04:36They've got braids and they've got clips. And then the poor girls on a Saturday and Sunday. Like literally. They're all their mums on hair. Yeah. It looks like they've been dragged through a bush. And I haven't even tried. I've tried. And then the best is on the Monday where a nanny will be like, sorry, is that ponytail still in from Friday? Yes, we won't talk about that. Try it. I love that. So yes, I'd love to be able to do my daughter's hair. Are you amazing at doing hair? Do you know what? I've got like two styles that I've got locked down. I'm not good at braiding. Okay. I am great at like a snatched, you know, like a slick.

1:05:12I'm great at a snatched look. I'm good at the curls. Sorry, I've just had a business idea. Can't we do a launch where we bring our daughters with Milo to Coco and we all learn how to do hair? Yeah, let's do that. Do you know what? I'm going to do it for dads. Yes. Let's do one for us too. I'm doing this. there's a really great I forget what they're called now Pints and Ponytails Pints and Ponytails and we're going to go and sponsor one of their things because it's so good and like I'm going to send Marv to host it and do the whole thing that way that's brilliant how good but I do think women also struggle like it's something that we assume women can just do yeah but I would have thought you'd have been great at that which is exactly which is so interesting we'll do it we'll host one together please yes what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started your career?

1:05:56that we're all in cycles everything's a cycle you can't be at the top all the time oh yeah and it's quite mal robbins this but everyone you think everyone else is doing amazingly because that's what your internal dialogue naturally is that you're not doing as well as everyone just be patient you know work hard graft hard head down we're all in cycles we will get to different places at different times and I think I was I was quite hard on myself that I wasn't where I wanted to be and just stay true to what you want to do and I've said it from I think the beginning of this conversation but do it slowly you know you don't have to rush life is short but it's also long and play the long game yes yeah that is such good advice I sat next to um Dr.

1:06:45Emma Craythorne who's got this brand called clira k-l-i-r-a and i just loved talking to her um recently where she just she's like oh i'm not ready to do that i want to do this slowly i want this brand to change the world so i'm not brushing it and i thought it's so so nice to hear refreshing in a world where it's all fast growth you know quick launches scaling like it's yeah that's such an i really i'm or i do i'm a firm believer in slow and silly wins the race yes and you're doing that you haven't got to have everything figured out on day one and we do put pressure on ourselves again seeing everyone else's lives play out does really add to that doesn't it what would be sort of the dream partnership for you like we've kind of you know we've spoken about sunday times style and obviously what would be is there a is there something that you think do you know what i'd love to sort of get my hands on that be it a tv show be it a series i don't know what is what is something that you've not tapped into yet that you'd love to get your hands on this isn't the final name but it's something around I've got two Rochelle I've got two I'll do them really quickly okay the first is the beauty editor that sparks joy because I think there's not enough joy so it's you know beauty is all about what you see on the outside but I'm obsessed with the idea of all of us laughing and like feeling actual joy at the core and as a result looking better feeling better because we're happier people I think everyone seems quite unhappy in a lot of ways because we're all glued to our phones and we're all staring at everyone else I want to take things offline and I want to spark joy and I want people to feel amazing as well as look amazing yes and I think the two are so linked and yet there isn't sort of that world where beauty and sort of confidence has come together yet it's either like i care so much about products or i care so much about confidence yes but i want to bring the two together sorry i've just noticed this suddenly looks like i'm like i don't know but this is a ross bar patch for focus these are amazing you pop them on in the morning and then you can concentrate i've got a purple one that was magnesium patch there you go yeah i'm ross there you go um i need a few of them yes he's amazing he's an actor do you have acupuncture love acupuncture okay yes so that was the first one and the second one is i'd like to start an entire movement called tackle tired face because it is the most common question i get asked how can i look less tired okay it's like whatever age everyone is so busy everyone is working so hard everyone is trying to do a million things i'd like to tackle tired face for people so that could be makeup skincare um music yes uh exercise supplements drinks uh-huh style everything it's like your your face shows like how you feel yeah every day yeah and if you feel exhausted you look exhausted so it's all those different elements and how to tackle them oh i love it if you could build that for me yeah tackle tired face there's something in that for sure i mean no one wants to look tired no one's tired you know i mean even i say that to the guys when they when they get me ready some days they're like what do you want they go who which girl do you want to be today and i'm like just not a tired not tired yeah also men really struggle with it because men are like i can't put makeup on so what do i do yeah i was talking to ben shepherd about this because with his skincare line he i was saying dark circles under eyes are really really tricky for men because they don't know what product to use they don't they want to put something there but they don't know what yes so we need to just tackle tidbit yes well we're leaving it to you you tell us you tell us this is when you tell us tackle it there you go we're ready for you um and then lastly if you could choose one female figure as a mentor past or present who would it be found this a really hard question because you naturally you know for me I wanted to say my mom because she's been such a huge part of my life and she's always just kept saying whenever things haven't gone my way she's either like you're amazing you'll be fine or she sort of held my hand through yes but when it comes to the word mentor I guess in terms of who I've looked up to the editor or the former editor of the Sunday Times was a woman called Emma Tucker right and just watching her in the boardroom with men was just the most incredibly inspiring thing to watch she was never scared to say no she was never scared to tell people when they were wrong and she was still so charming she always does her makeup amazingly she always looked the part and I just thought there's a lot of women who change because they feel they need to be a certain way because men are in the room I love that she still felt confident enough to sort of be feminine in her approach but still strong and I always think like that like when I hopefully one day if I come up with an idea or a brand I really want to feel like that powerhouse around men I mean you must have that when you walk into a room of men like you're a woman and this is who you're going to be and I think she's someone I want to channel when I walk into that room be Emma yes be more I love that.

1:11:59I love that. It's so true because it does take some getting used to, but I kind of use that as my superpower now. I'm like, okay. That, to me, is the easiest part. And Emma Greed said something really interesting when she came on the podcast because she said sometimes, actually, that really throws people and the idea of that. But she's like, if you're walking into a boardroom that's male and you're going in there as a female, chances are they need you because guess what no one else sat at that table looks like you so she was like it's your superpower it's your advantage like see that as like they need me and if they if they're still not convinced when I'm in the room by the end of me leaving they'll be like we need her totally so almost see it as a challenge but be like that is your superpower there was this really interesting trend that I noticed that these women at the absolute top thought they needed to wear no makeup to be taken seriously so they'd go in there like bare face like not done hair because if they had a swishy blow dry then that's sort of what they still thought and I think that is coming to an end I think now you can walk in and you can look the part and you can sort of hold your head up high and no one's getting in the way of me and my blow dry either right sorry I'm not there's no way that's happening um each episode I ask I guess to leave a tip almost like a tangible piece of advice for a lady looking to launch um whether it's you know let's bring this back to your book if there's someone that's thinking because I love that you're like look that life happened it took me four years to get the book over the line and you know I didn't think it was going to take me that long but I stuck to it and we go back to slow and steady wins the race but you were consistent and yes it took longer than you maybe anticipated but here it is and I think sometimes we think oh I'm not going to do that I actually haven't got time at the minute and then something can go on the back burner so if you've got one piece of advice that I suppose you'd give to someone listening to this that is like I can relate to that I'm sort of leaving that thing not you know to the side because everything's happening around me what would what would your advice be i am going to go with consistency because whatever it is you're doing whether it's your skincare because it happens i see this all the time when someone says i tried that product it didn't work how long did you use it for were you consistent i see it in people who want to be social media influencers i tried but nobody was liking anything so i gave up how long were you posting for you know things do not happen overnight even though it looks like that for everyone else be consistent in whatever you feel passionate about obviously a time comes where if you've done it for five years and the book still isn't written or the skin still hasn't changed but whatever it is you truly want to do be a hundred percent consistent before you give up yes that is such good advice like don't it's always my mom used to say don't throw the towel in yet like you know but it's so easy to give up it really is it really is but i I also think that's a sort of measure on how passionate you are, because I think even on the days when you're like, oh, should I bother with this?

1:15:21When everything's happening, that passion will always keep that alight. So you need that, don't you? Met with that consistency. I gave up on that book about 20 times over the four years because of how I was feeling. Everyone needs to remember your own internal dialogue is the harshest critic. Yeah. if you step outside you know whenever you feel that way go outside go speak to your friends go speak to your family you will get back into the mindset mindset but be consistent and don't let those voices get too loud because they can tell you to give up yeah they can tell you just that's not for you you can't do it you hear it you know I used to say you're you can't be a beauty editor you you don't have this hair or this skin or I was so horrible to myself like I wish I knew then what I know now I say to people all the time just be consistent with whatever product that dermatologist has given you stop listening to the noise out there because there is a different product being recommended you're now being targeted by a hundred different adverts just stay in your lane with the products you're meant to use with the book you want to write with the career you want to have with the product you want to launch stay there with yourself and try and block out the noise.

1:16:34Yeah, such good advice. And then lastly, I ask this question because I like to know, we talk about ladies who launch when it comes to ladies who lunch. How do you spend your lunch hour? Where are you typically? And what's your go-to? I've just been doing my audio book and it's a really grueling experience. For like eight hours, you sit in this room and they give you an hour for lunch. And I've been really laughing at myself because I don't know the last time I took an hour for lunch. So I'm like, I have my nails. What can I squeeze into this hour? And it goes really quickly actually when you go for a walk and you pick up your lunch.

1:17:12I've recently moved house and I promised myself because I work from home now, I don't work in the office and it's been such a big life change for me to not be around other people and not sit with my colleagues who I love to chat to. So you have to really build a proper regime when you're working from home that you're not suddenly like having an app or like. yeah of course I don't know quickly finishing that episode yes and you don't you know and you don't get distracted on what needs to be done at home and what you should you know how you should also be spending your time so the vision was move into the new house and make lunch go for a walk around the park yes really near a park or go just do one errand where you're going to drop off your vintage park just go do something I've not done it once yet not done it once I've completely failed I don't know how to take a lunch break and I'm going to listen to all of your episodes to see if anyone has any advice how to take a lunch break.

1:18:03Do you know what it's such a good point because there's a real it's a real mixed bag because some people like I'm I really sort of promote that culture in the workplace and in my business I want everyone to break I want everyone to come back and some people are like what's the lunch out? I know like I'll be eating my salad in a meeting. yeah yeah because i i pick up grace from nursery at three yes i'm like i can't go from one till two for lunch and then at 2 30 go pick so i tend to just grab something go collect her what's your go-to grab i i mean i love joe and the juice i love ginger and white your neighbors um i i love attis that i often there's one that i can get which is quite near me that i'll just pick up a salad yes yes something like that that's actually what i've ordered today have you I was waiting for me in the kitchen.

1:18:52I do build your own. Yes, okay. So there's just like everything. I'll be honest. I'm going to eat a salad. We say sexy salad on here. Oh, what's a sexy salad? Well, it's just got to have lots of stuff in it. Like I don't just want leaves and like a slice of cucumber and a bit of like, I'm like all the toppings, make it tasty, a nice dressing. Today's a sexy salad day. I'm going to create that at home, but I'm by myself. So I'm just going to be like, sexy salad day for Sarah. You know what I mean? You can't have a basic salad. But also I'm quite a girl lunch. I will just make like eggs on toast.

1:19:24Picky. Yeah. Picky bits. Yeah. Easy. Thank you so much. Honestly, I'm so pleased that we've got to do this and to sit down and chat. I've loved having you. And I'm so excited that the book is here. Thank you. She's arrived. She's arrived. Yes. There we go. Hold her up. There she is. Like my Oscar. Thank you so much. I've loved that. And congratulations and good luck with it. Love you lots, Rochelle. Thank you. You're amazing.

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