How To Communicate Your Needs In Business | Amira Quaye

0:00Rochelle: Have you ever known exactly what you wanted to say, but in the moment it just didn't come out right? Well, today we're talking to Amira Quaye, the communication expert, helping people find the words when it matters most. In this episode, we'll break down how to hold your own in rooms, navigate through difficult conversations and say what you mean with practical takeaways that you can use straight away.

0:32Rochelle: I'm so excited you're here I'm excited to be here Launchboxes always end up being like my favourite records Because I love telling stories But I also love the idea that we get to kind of give these episodes That are so tangible for people And you know, contain so many takeaways ways and I also think it's so super poignant because you were part of our first ever community zoom which I love and I was like listen we're gonna do something we're gonna do something and maybe like what a year out yeah yeah it's not over a year ago now yeah here we are so there you go divine timing and all that stuff first of all I want to sort of I want to tap into what it is you do what people think it is you do because I know that's always a little there's always a bit of a preconception there isn't it so you are a communication expert and I feel like that can mean probably so many different things so many different people but I think there's probably an understanding that people think they know what it means but they don't fully so how would you describe what you do in your own words I love that I think the biggest misconception is that I sit in PR and comms and I'm like just axe that I've got nothing to do with it at all not my expertise I always say that I'm on this mission to help us all communicate so much better because it's the lesson that we weren't taught at school and it has the biggest impact on the relationship that we have with ourselves and the people around us so that's like my goal that's like my life mission and hopefully it adds a little bit more love into the world and I feel like we all need that right now yes um and then how I do it is a few different levels so think about it in different tiers I work with my one-to-one clients so this is very much in terms of looking at what I call your communication blueprint how did you grow up I always feel like you talk about that so what the role models the influences what shapes the way that you communicate and how does that work for you as an adult um what are the habits that kind of hold you back get in your way why do you feel like you don't have a voice um and then we really look at okay well how do you want to show up in the world how are you going to communicate I think the biggest question I get asked is how do I communicate confidently how do I communicate like you Amira and I'm like nope I don't want you to be like me I want you to be like you yes and what's confident for you yeah yeah and tapping into like your authenticity not doing a carbon copy so really work with my one-to-one clients and I work with loads of teams and businesses so I always say usually if you're calling me it's because you're like all right my team's not quite connecting collaborating or communicating in the way I want them to or we're a new team and we haven't quite figured it out yet or we don't know how to have those hard conversations and so we'll do it on a team level which I love because it's just such a different dynamic.

3:10Rochelle: You know Dior, Dior Vidiaka who's my life coach, she often gets invited into like big corporate firms and we'll do sessions with the team and like everyone is buzzing from it afterwards and I think it's so, it's so, so, so important and like you say communication, when we like strip back life and we talk about things that went wrong and things that you know you're not happy with, for me any sort of grievance I have with friendships, relationships, you know teams, staff, it will always come down to communication. And I'm like, well, if we communicated that earlier, that could have been solved. Or we didn't communicate that to me.

3:46Rochelle: I didn't know you were feeling like that, but it's, we always come back to that word. So I was going to ask you what, you know, it looks, your job looks like day to day. So, but you've kind of given me that in a nutshell. You work with one-to-one clients, you, you know, you, you look at teams too. If you were, if we were talking about your day-to-day with a one-to-one client, who's coming to you and what when they reach out to you what would they say that they're struggling with yeah I think that's such a good question I put my people my community into a bracket whether they see it or not of like overachievers over givers and over thinkers and I think if you look at my types of clients on the outside you will think they've got it all together but actually like their internal dialogue is kind of like what runs their world right that's interesting yes I always say it's my high achievers it doesn't matter what industry you're in it doesn't matter whether you're creative whether you are a ceo whether you are like junior the level doesn't matter the industry doesn't matter but it's that internal dialogue that either cripples you with self-doubt overthinks so then you don't show up one of my clients said to me the other day my brain is so full that I literally can't articulate myself either sitting on a panel or speaking to my team.

4:58Right. And I feel like I don't lead in the way I want to lead because my brain is so busy, which is also found at life as well. So that's kind of like the bracket I have put my clients in and how it manifests will be, okay, something's built up over time and then it becomes a problem. And like you said, well, if we communicated it earlier or we communicated from the get-go what our expectations were, we're probably not going to get into the frictional conflict later down the line. Yeah. Or not in a way where it's as heightened. And so clients look super, super different. And it can, I always say, you've kind of touched on it already, but work life, for sure.

5:33Personal relationship. I don't think we talk about friends and family enough. And actually, I'm looking at my group chat at the moment and I'm like, I can see the passive aggressiveness. I'm like, I'm not dealing with it. But it's actually, okay, well, how do I get my voice heard in a way that's not going to be disrespectful to other people and do it with like compassion and love as well. Because I think sometimes we have this misconception of, I've got to be assertive and I'm going to be rude by being assertive.

5:59Rochelle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very fine line, isn't it? So how do you like what how do you go about unpacking that? So if I was to call you and say, I mean, my brain is full. I mean, it's basically a description of me right now. My brain is full. There's a lot happening and I'm just not I'm not being the leader or the wife or the mother or the friend I want to be because there's just it's you know, it's all happened at once and life's life thing. how do you go about unpacking that and I suppose I suppose because you've really got to get under the hood really haven't you to figure out what's going on and as to why it looks the way it does yeah I love that you literally just like hit the nail on the head I always go backwards first because environment you've grown up in also like what's school like as well like were you because that's where a lot of the labels come from I was always deemed bossy which now I'm like okay reframe it I'm a leader but that used to like plague my the way I communicate because I was like I don't want to come across as though I'm being too bossy people aren't going to like me I'm not going to be agreeable so when any client will always go backwards and actually I was working with a new client this week and it's exactly what we've done so actually who did you grow up with why do you feel right now that you can't share your ideas why do you feel that you can't be open and actually trust your own voice and I think that's like quite a big difference because we talk about confidence but actually you've got a voice you just need to tap back into it and she shared that she grew up in an environment which was pretty loud and everybody's voice got heard except hers right and that's what creates that like internal belief that we all have but it looks different for each of us and so hers is my ideas aren't that important they're not worth sharing if I do speak up am I going to come across as uh like uninteresting yeah and so that's where we'll start because actually what are the stories you're telling yourself if you think you're such a bad communicator if you think you're boring if you think you've got no value to add then that's exactly how you're going to show up so we do like all the deep stuff first which is actually reframing that and it takes time it's not easy it's not easy i bet i bet it's almost like it's like almost a little bit of a hybrid of of life coaching therapy you know it feels like a bit it's like an interesting model to me have you obviously you are now queen communicator have you have you has that always been a strong suit for you like absolute opposite so I think the way the business was born was out of my struggle and I would say it took me the best part of 10 years so it I smile when somebody gives me the compliments I mean I want to communicate like you and I'm like I learned it guys so if I can learn it so and everybody else yeah and so I always say like my lack of confidence the way I trusted myself the way I trusted my ideas I probably could write a book alone just on like my bad experiences right because it affected every area of my life I stayed in a relationship too long I if somebody crossed like a boundary at work I remember I had one director and he'd take my ideas and pass them off as his own and I was pretty senior at that time classic I thought very relevant but I didn't say anything I didn't even call it out and there's a way to call it out so I think after 10 years of like figuring it out and it was like this real juxtaposition because on one side people would think I'm super confident and on the other side I'm like you can put me in loads of situations and I won't say anything I won't address it when it gets hard or I won't in a really compassionate way stand up for myself so it was definitely through I think like 10 years of real kind of not getting it right and realizing that I didn't get pay rise as a result of it I didn't know how to negotiate well I didn't know how to put myself forward for something I didn't know how to ask for help I'd stay quiet if something really upset me and then that compounds like that really really compounds and do you think like as you grow with age and more experience I mean undoubtedly right that the kind of the more we grow and the more that we've lived life we gain that sort of confidence and we gain that a bit more resilience and you know you look back and you think why didn't I just speak up for myself as if like I'd let that happen now but do you think do you think you've had to teach you've you know you've had to sort of own that narrative I suppose and walk the walk but equally do you think there's something there's a beauty in like maturing too i always reflect on that question because when i look at my clients my youngest is 21 and my oldest is 65 and it shows up so differently for each of them and in like different areas of life so i think naturally yes the more experiences you have i think more than that is also are you reflecting on them and doing them differently and i know definitely like if you look at your 20s like oh my god I'm a different version of me and you're supposed to be yeah you trust you I mean for me I trust myself and I trust that my opinion way more I think I was like I would let so much kind of outside noise come in because I'd be okay do you think so well yeah maybe they're right maybe if I don't do that well when now I couldn't really be swayed by you know anybody outside of what I'm doing because I'm like no I've got this this is my boundary and I'm quite set but I do feel that I feel a real shift in that like my 30s and I'm 37 now and even say like the later 30s I feel way more confident in that than I did in like my late 20s or early 30s I think everyone's different I think sometimes some people naturally will evolve and grow and find their way of doing it and trust their voice and I think I've just got like loads of clients where that hasn't happened yeah because then equally it's like the age old thing right Like when you're younger, you're not scared to go on a roller coaster.

11:44Rochelle: But then now I'm the girl that's like holding the bags because I don't really want to go on. And I'm like, you guys go, enjoy. And you get fearful, right? So I suppose like it's a real mixed bag and a game of two halves because actually sometimes with age you can be, you know, you're a little bit more, you're nervous. You're a bit more fearful about everything. And when you're younger, you're so fearless and you're brave. But yeah, you're right. It must manifest itself so differently from client to client. Was there something that you had to unlearn about communication? Because you touched on it before.

12:18Rochelle: I think we're taught, and I don't know if that's like a societal thing, but we're taught that, you know, if we are assertive or if we are, you know, we have good boundaries or, you know, we know what's right for us, that that can come across bossy, perhaps rude, perhaps, you know, obnoxious. What, like, is there anything that you had to unlearn about how you communicate? I mean I think I've got a whole entire list but tell me this definitely that I'm allowed to have needs so that I'm allowed to actually say what I want or what I need from a situation or a relationship and I think in the early days I would just really go quiet and I'd like not want to come across whether it was bossy or like too much yeah so I'd be I'd appease and I'd please and I hate the phrase people please it because I'd never associate myself with it yeah but definitely knowing that I'm allowed to say how I feel and I'm allowed to have needs was like a huge piece that kind of fed into so many other things um could you feel it at the time like if you were like holding yourself back from speaking your truth could you was it conflicting at the time or you did or were you didn't you feel like I suppose brave enough to speak your speak your true so it's interesting because i think i'm thinking about two situations so if i think about relationship wise i'd go quiet and feel the feelings inside they feel like i physically couldn't say anything right and then if it was work i was probably the other end of the spectrum i was way too loud with it and it was never gonna land well whereas my point was still valid but actually i needed to think about how am i framing it how am i positioning it and the delivery yeah and if i if i'm upset about something or something hasn't quite landed then like give the feedback do it in a really constructive way.

14:08And I think I didn't have that, I don't think it's fair to say emotional maturity because yes, you do learn. But this is the other piece, I guess. I don't know, it's really deep, but you have to learn how to manage your emotions in order to communicate really well. Which is hard. Right? And especially like, I'm firing. I still am. And I'm quite proud of that. But I had to learn when is it okay for that to show up and when is it not? And when to pull back a little. Yeah. So if I think about what did I have to unlearn, it was feeling and like my beliefs around I don't get to say anything or I shouldn't say something and then it was learning okay manage your emotions feel them and then think about how do you actually want to articulate it because I always say I missed out on opportunities because I didn't

14:54Rochelle: know how to do that really well yes that's so interesting so so interesting I'm really I'm really curious to know where you think women are going wrong as in like what what what's the sort of common mistakes and maybe not mistakes but you know places that we kind of haven't found our feet yet and I want to talk about something that I mean I probably still do this quite a lot I know it's over explaining and I've got so much better at it that would always be my default kind of that like my knee-jerk reaction whether I needed to or not over explaining is what was I'm gonna say my middle name I'm putting in the past tense because I would be the girl that was like would want to feel the silence yeah so yeah over explaining I think I think it's a really common thing and I see other people do it now I really teach my children not to sort of not to do that I can see it in my eldest where I'm like you know your your answer's your answer and that's okay and I for a long time I was that person that felt the need to fill a silence so if there was a gap and I'd be in an important meeting or on an important call and sort of waiting for the response I would do that thing where I'm like and the thing is if we don't and I'd start elaborating when it's just not necessary and also it's not it's not business smart too because you know I've said my point that's that and I'm not actually going to move on it and I know I'm not going to move on it but now I've sort of started dancing around a topic just because I probably feel a little bit awkward as to what the response is going to be and if it starts with silence I'll feel it but now I'm I'm quite good at making creating those silences myself because I know I kind of know that what it does and it makes someone else fill the gap and I'll just wait and I'll leave my point there.

16:52Rochelle: I've really learned that. But I think it's something that we do as women, you know, like it's hard to compliment a woman and say, oh, my goodness me, I love I love that blazer. And oh, my God, this whole thing. And I've had it for ages. And it's like, why do we do this? It's also really a British thing, too. It's like you can't you know, you have to really elaborate on everything. And if you have a concern, you give a concise answer that that also might be a bit abrupt or that's a little rude so i think you always feel like you're softening something the more explanation you give yeah so from more of like a psychological point it comes from a space where we're almost trying to control the situation because we don't want anybody to misunderstand us yes fill in the blanks so it's like i'm gonna over give the information labor the point yeah yeah well it's okay we got it you like her you know it's all that yeah and let me give you every eventuality let me give you every pro and con to it so you don't need to figure it out just in case you're going to come at me with a rebuttal so I will give you everything and so it stems from different places for each of us definitely like women for sure and I think as well it's the real difference in terms of how men and women have grown up and also like our place in the world and society and yes it's changing but depending on what your workspace is it still shows up so So I think understanding where is it coming from for you is really, really important.

18:17Because if you do it as a defense mechanism, it's probably because you don't want somebody to misunderstand you. Yes, very fair. And that's like my space where I came from. I'm going to give you everything so that you don't walk away with the wrong opinion of me. You know that I've got it all together. And it's also a huge place of where your perfectionism shows up as well. And so I think understand that, first of all. The other thing that you do really well, which most human beings, men or women don't like, is the silence. And I always say, if you're negotiating or you need an answer to anything, rule is 10 second rule.

18:50Be quiet because someone else is going to give you exactly what you need in that 10 seconds.

18:55Rochelle: And I was always that person. Oh, it's OK. That's that's how I know to be good at the silence. Like I said, I learned that very quickly. But and I look back and I think it also. I think the way it can be perceived is a little bit like. insecure or nervous or and and at the time that actually wasn't what I was feeling actually what but it would perhaps come across that way just because I felt the need to like you say make sure that my point wasn't being misunderstood yeah and that people were really understanding what I was trying to say but it just wasn't concise or clear it was just you know a word salad yeah but also as well people are going to get lost in all your points and also I always say this like aim for a conversation so you want the backwards and forwards that leaves space for them to misunderstand they're gonna ask you a question if they do if they misunderstand yeah of course they're gonna sort of want clarification on that yeah how do you feel about when it comes to softening language because it's one of those things isn't it like you say it's like reframing your approach definitely i think there's two things and it even goes back to your question when you said Amira where are we going wrong as women I am very much of the ethos like let's aim to be assertive and let's like strip back some of those filler words and undermining and softening the way that we're talking because you're just not doing yourself justice at all however I think the context between men and women is such an important one and I don't know I'm gonna like use a bit of research to back up here as well but I don't think we're in a space yet where as females we get to communicate in the same way as guys because that is a live example of where you two could probably say the same thing and it's going to be so well received if marv says it versus if you say it yeah and that is just because of your gender yeah it's like this great um cartoon from this artist i can't remember and it's like what's the difference between aggressive and assertive your agenda and so i think on one hand it's easy to say guys let's take out our filler words let's not soften everything we say but I think actually what's a better approach is can we be a little bit more tactical with it right because there's a time where we're going to do it in a way because we don't want to come across as aggressive and how many times have we spoken up and said something and said it just clearly and we've said it with compassion and it's still been viewed as aggression as aggression yes so it's also I don't want you to diminish yourself to the point where you're you don't have a voice and you're molding yourself into somebody else but do i think that we can communicate exactly the same way as a man does no i don't and i think we need to be really aware of like what's the context what's the room that we're in what are we trying to negotiate or what's the outcome of this conversation and then like you said delivery is everything like tone is everything yes but you know what which is why i actually i'm one of those people that leave voice notes because I also think that you can hear my tone like you yeah like I might be so busy and I'll reply yes and then yes and that's literally it or no and you could receive that is she is everything okay with her no perfect I literally mean yes it's fine like it's not but if I voice that you and I'm like yes babe all good no worries you know where I am so I kind of I actually love and I'm that annoying friend and that annoying colleague because I love a voice note and sometimes it does turn into a podcast I've made a pact to myself this year that it won't because I'm like I have a podcast I don't need to do that via WhatsApp yeah but it to me I think I just really I'd always like someone to hear my tone and I that's why pre kind of voice notes I'd always call someone because it just feels better to me but particularly if I'm like delivering something that might come across very direct and but just knowing that it's said with love and it's it's actually you know it's there's no malice or there's no ill intent it's actually just a straight up answer or decision you know yeah and it has such an impact on how someone receives that message yes and there's two things one thing i always say is you're responsible for what you say and how you say it you are not responsible for how the other person receives it and that is such a difficult thing to be able to like get your head around when you can you detach a little bit and then exactly as you said i love to talk about it as in there's a hierarchy of like your modes of communication so like ideal scenario we don't always have to structure it's face to face like of course right your whole entire body you can see your expressions you see your movement you know whether you feel relaxed whether you're on edge like all of your non-verbal cues will add more weight to your message than your words right like you're way more likely to have your message land when you've got everything working like in accordance with each other then if you can't do that i'm like video call especially if it's like work because you still get to see your face you still get to see expressions smile okay frown a little bit annoyed about this then exactly is tone of voice so I'm same as you my friend my clients know this but I'm always I always say to them it's helping you because you have to practice with me the more you use your voice the more you're going to be confident in other spaces yeah um but I always say to my friends I'm like guys chunk up your voice notes for me please and like give them to me in two minutes don't give me a 10 minute voice note I always like write a little caveat where I'm like, I'll leave a voice out and then I'm like times two or like I'm like tell them I'm like, put me on, you know, speed me up.

24:18Rochelle: You know, I was like I had you on the side while I was doing the thing. So just speed me up for that one. When you say filler words, explain to us what you mean when you say filler words. So think about your filler word as your word that you don't need in the sentence. And if you take it out, it will still make sense. OK. I.E. just. I just want to check in with you. Yes. Just wanting to make sure. Of course as well, your other filler words are your ums, your likes. And I think this is important because I think it's really unrealistic to eliminate them from your language. Yeah. So let's not try and achieve that.

24:54But do we probably need to reduce them if you're saying like every other sentence? Probably. Yeah. And again, I do want to be so honest. I think this is the unfairness of gender and being a female. because if a guy used it in the same context, more times, like there's a likelihood they're not going to be perceived as, oh, are they educated? Oh, do they know what they're talking about? But if a female communicates in the same word and uses those filler words, it's going to be more damaging for us. And I think if we think about whether we're business owners, whether we're in a team environment, whether we're leading a team, we have to be mindful of, okay, what is this doing for our perception?

25:34Rochelle: I'm really interested because there's these, I've seen a couple of these things online and it's like almost like rephrasing and reframing how you email yeah I love it and I want to talk to these I think these could be like such useful prompts for people and when you said I just I just wanted to see if we could check in if I got that email or versus I need to check in today or I want to check in today it instantly changes the way that it lands for me yeah so i kind of i want to talk about where you think people make mistakes in like common phrasing i mean if and if everybody just deletes the phrase circle back i'll be happy i'm like no i'm circling back stop it can we just circle back on no no rephrase that i just don't like it it's just the worst phrase to me ever this is nothing to do with communicating that's just nick i'm like no you're not circling back most corporate thing as well isn't it it's just awful like no you're not for me i'm not circling with you um yeah definitely the thing as well about email even when you said as well it would change how you would receive it how you'd respond i know we don't all have this luxury but like as a general rule use anything written like you said whatsapp or an email as your last resource because somebody's going to interpret it however they want yeah and like you've got email etiquette that goes to the point so I always sign off my emails a I don't bother writing my full name I as well if I'm back and forwards with somebody emails like my last form of communication I just don't enjoy it um but even like I'll start dropping off people's name and just send the message whereas I know that can land really badly with some people especially as well and I think this is really important how do you like to communicate are you someone as well that wants to build rapport so I think some of those phrases are sorry I'm late sorry this took so long to come back to start with gratitude thanks for your patience I appreciate you waiting yes yes but instantly that changes it for me and like you say I am not an email person too I must tell you that like I really am not but by default I have to be because of my job which you know like a lot of women listening to this like emailing is a crucial part and I'm like oh god like I cannot bear it and I'm There's nothing worse than I feel like I've cleared my inbox and everyone starts replying.

27:51I'm like, no, no, you're not allowed.

27:53Rochelle: I've just got to, you know, my unread to finish. So that's interesting. Have you got any more examples? Yeah, definitely. So I think... So start with gratitude. Okay. And that goes as well for a lot of even hard conversations. If you start from a space of gratitude, love, you're trying to set the tone up. Also as well, females tend to over-apologise. Why are you apologising? you got to it when you were able to get to it i'm pretty sure you're juggling 10 million things and also somebody else's urgency isn't yours so just by reframing it and saying thanks for your patience you're acknowledging that you appreciate their time and you appreciate yeah yeah they're like oh you're so welcome it wasn't a problem at all but as soon as you apologize when you haven't actually done something wrong you've undermined whatever's going to follow yes and that's really important yes um another one when you said i just want to check in can we follow up on last week's meeting or i'm keen to talk about those two ideas i've had some other thoughts you're just saying what you actually want to say rather than going around the houses with it and like over softening it in those situations ask yourself why am i softening it yes and also like when you soften it too much it feels like there isn't a sense of urgency like so if you're like i just want to check in it feels a bit like if i receive that that's something i can put off where you know where if you flip it and you say hi i'm just chasing on those those things that we discussed last week that you know however you want to put that i'm instantly like yes okay i need to get back to that person yeah i think it's the way you receive it that sort of level of urgency also matters too depending on if it's something that you really want to get over the line Yeah, and it's a priority.

29:40And I think even that's another good example. Don't say you're checking in if actually you're following up with something and it's got a deadline on it. So refer back to it and say, hey, we spoke about this last week. The deadline's coming up. Are we on track for it? That's much better than you saying, hey, just check in and going around the houses again. So if you need something as well, say what you need and say when you need it by. And if you're worried as well about your email coming across abrupt or too harsh, one, think about can you pick up the phone? Is it a two-minute call? Especially when it's around the deadline.

30:15Two, think about do you want to build rapport in the beginning of the email? How are you? Hope the week's going well so far. I'm checking in on this. We've got the deadline coming up. Let me know if you're on track. Yes, yes. So different. and I think though that we do need to understand that whenever we're writing things it's probably not going to come across in the way that we intend intend it to and that's the nature of it there's nothing really that's going to combat that that's going to make it sound as beautiful as if you sent

30:42Rochelle: a voice note you're so right like you could send me a message and say if I said you know hi how are you and you'd be like I'm fine thanks you I could be like oh I'm fine thanks you or I could be up I'm fine yeah like you can it's literally you know however you want however it lands to that individual and how they've interpreted that message that's it's it's no more than that so like you say if you can if there's an opportunity to cut through that that's always going to be the preferred option right I was going to say actually because as you were talking it had an example this week from a client and he happened to get three rejection emails and they compounded so they just came in one after the other by the third one he already spiraled because he was already like okay what have I done wrong and he's just reading it whereas we actually stopped and paused and said okay what's an alternative message of actually what's going on are you the problem here or is it that someone simply needed to reschedule their diary is it that you aren't good enough that you couldn't push that sale through or is it simply someone's diary is clashing but it's also that compound effect and with email you will always interpret in like whatever mode whatever tone whatever else is going on for you and whatever time it is for you you're right I want to talk about holding your own in rooms because I think you know and I see when we talk to kind of start businesses I've you know we've spoken to founders that have built you know billion dollar businesses and everything in between but I think one thing that at one point whether you're kind of at that end of your career or the other but at one point women perhaps struggle with holding their own in a room that could feel intimidating yeah um and I want I want you to speak to that a little bit like how do you particularly when I don't know you're in a boardroom and there might be louder or personalities or you know more dominant personalities how do you kind of speak confidently in situations that you perhaps feel like it might get easy for you to fade into the background and you're there you've got a point to prove you know you're you know you're you just you've earned your place there and you deserve to be at that table but actually there's a lot happening and it all feels a little bit intimidating yeah I think two two ways I want to approach this one is kind of what can you do before and then two what can you actually do when you're in the room so a little of prep work before which I think most of us struggle with are actually identifying what are your strengths like what are you good at and what is the value so as you said you've already proven yourself you already know that like you deserve to be there you need to remind yourself like what are my strengths and how am I playing to them whether it's like I'm so great at technical expertise whether I'm like an incredible creative director with like incredible ideas or I see things from an angle that nobody else sees you have to be able to list off your strengths and my challenge to everybody listening is go away and at least write 10 right because if you don't know your strengths you don't know how to play to them and also then when you end up in a situation where you're in a room where everybody's voice is louder than yours you're going to be on shaky ground yeah and you basically don't want to give space to the self-doubt to start spiraling it's like first of all know what your strengths are then when you're in the room i would love us to move away from the idea that the loudest room is the most the loudest voice is the most important because we don't all have to be extroverted to have our voice heard and so this goes back to your strength like what is your label how have you been labeled were you labeled shy were you labeled quiet were you labeled bossy like me and how can we use that as your superpower so if your voice isn't the loudest and i did a team session recently and it was super creative environment and some and it was for international women's day actually so some of the females were like I walk into a space and either we've got senior directors there and I feel that I can't like shout above them they're so loud it's such a buzzing environment because everyone's bouncing ideas of each other so how do I find my space and I was like two things I want you to get out of the headspace that you have to be loud as well you don't need to meet them where they are right some people are extroverted and some people that's how they generally like to communicate and they're really expressive in that way my tip for you is something called the entry technique can you see if you can share one idea in that meeting you don't need to dominate it you don't need to say 10 things in that meeting to have value but can we make sure that the one thing you do say is of value and one of my recent clients was had a new position as a senior leader and it was the first time they were really operating in that space and they were like i I come out of those meetings and they're actually quite results driven.

35:27So come out of that meeting, everyone's talking. I haven't said two words. Everyone's shouting above each other. And also there's no end result. So I kind of feel like we're just going around in circles. I was like, okay, your challenge is before the meeting, think about what's the one thing you would like to land. And again, don't always have that luxury, right? You don't go into every single meeting or space or pitch or conversation knowing what it's going to be about. When you do, prep for it. Okay, what's my one thing I want to get across? and then two how can you make sure you say that earlier on in the meeting don't leave it okay and it could be something as simple as i've got an idea i want to share and then go into it but have like almost your statement ready because when you're not used to communicating in this way you're putting yourself under so much pressure to think on the spot yeah you're so right you

36:12Rochelle: want to arm yourself with that like that a bit of security going into that yeah yeah so just get out of that notion that you have to be the loudest you don't play to your strengths and actually think about what am I good at so I'm really good at asking questions I mean a little bit biased now because I'm a coach so it's my job but I'm also really good at steering a conversation yeah yeah so how can you when you're showing up in those settings play to that and I know everyone in the room can be loud right and I think like when you're when there's that dynamic and it feels that way I will always look at I'm like oh I'm always attracted to a bit of mystery I'm like what's she thinking go on I'd like to hear from her you know I think yeah I think because nine times out of ten and it's if you are that loud person great and you know that's a skill set in itself but if the person is being loud and there's a lot of you know dominating personalities they'll have probably already shared their ideas because you know they don't feel any way about doing that so So I think it's always really interesting to know that you should, like prep, I mean, you'd like to think you prep yourself anyway, but have something that you kind of, you know that you can add value to that situation.

37:22Yeah, and keep it so simple. Sometimes I think we're trying to do five things at once. Yes. And then you're not giving yourself your brain a chance. And also even when you said sometimes the loud voices, they would have expressed their ideas. So often a female will say to me, so what do I say, Amira? I'm just repeating what they've said. I said, okay, but still share your perspective on it, Even if it's an idea you agree with, simply say that.

37:43Rochelle: And it might be for a different reason. It might be the same idea, but your feeling might be completely different. And it's like you honouring your unique perspective and value that you have to add. And it's why I always go back and do the deep work. Because when you marry up the two, you can hold your space. You can hold your own in those spaces. Yes, yes. We've had a couple of questions, actually. Jess, well, she's underscore Jess dot XO underscore, and says she wants to know how to handle awkward silences in the corporate world. It goes back to that. It really does intimidate some people. Okay, two things on this.

38:22One, you have to be uncomfortable before you get comfortable with it. So I don't know if we give enough space to be in that discomfort. There's nothing fun about it. It's the same way if you set a boundary and you feel guilty. People will say to me, how do I not feel guilty? You have to do it and feel the emotion first. So what I would say to you is, again, do it in a gradual way. So if 10 seconds feels like, oh, my God, make that floor open up and swallow me. I don't want to be here. It just becomes a stare-off. That's all good in itself. You're like, what?

38:55Rochelle: But now I've got to get to 10. I've got to get to 10. So just start with, even when you said, yeah, I used to jump in. I used to want to fix. And even when you said, speaking about your eldest, all of us as well have our tendencies, depending as well on all of our siblings and like our role within our family. That's interesting. Yeah. Do you know what? I actually would see that. Yeah. Right. Like my middle just doesn't care. Yeah. Because the other's either side of doing it for her. She's like away with the ferries. She's like, I've got this. Yeah, it has a huge impact. So then with that awkward silence, see if you can give yourself just two seconds where you don't say anything.

39:30Rochelle: Right. And then build it up over time. If you really find it so difficult, ask a question. Because what I'm trying to avoid you doing is feeling it and talking for the sake of talking. Okay. Okay. And also, I'd really get you to reflect and ask, what is it about that silence that makes you so uncomfortable? That's the point. Like, why do we hate, you know, why do we hate that so much? Like, you're so, so right. Like, what is it? Why is it awkward? Why is it uncomfortable? Yeah. Because we feel like we should be showing up in a certain way. We feel like maybe it's devaluing us. We feel like we might not have enough ideas to contribute.

40:05is somebody gonna think I'm stupid it's somebody gonna think I've got nothing to say do they not agree with me yeah and then our brain and this is where our brains are wired so negatively it will fill in the blank and it usually fills in the blanks in a negative way so I always say it's about retraining your brain and practice together so yeah it's still gonna be awkward you're not gonna walk out of this podcast and it's gonna be amazing but see if you can close that gap and really sit with yourself and ask yourself what makes it feel uncomfortable yeah and just

40:34Rochelle: not letting it like land as much like you say some things are always going to feel slightly awkward but it's just knowing that it's going to feel slightly awkward and being okay with that yeah yeah that is really important um i want to touch on disagreements and difficult conversations because we love them um why do you think it is we avoid difficult conversations even when we know it's like i need and this could be like a breakup or this could be like upset with a friend or family member or you know somebody listening to this might have to go and fire somebody today like we know it needs to happen yeah but it's kind of that looming I still get this I don't think I'll ever not get this and I do it and I'm really assertive and I know that I need to yeah like through all of those things I mentioned through across life work you know however that looks but I will have probably a week of like a knot in my tummy knowing that I'm doing it unless I've got to do it anyway, but it will weigh on me.

41:34Rochelle: Why do you think we kind of, a lot of people do avoid them, so they'd rather sort of skirt around, pretend another situation has happened. I've really learnt to, you know, handle it head on. But I do think there is that avoidance when it comes to, I suppose, a bit of confrontation or, you know, putting yourself in a situation that you know isn't going to be cute and it's not going to be ideal, but we've got to do it anyway. I was smiling as you said this because I remembered I did a breakup once on text so when you were like Amira have you always been a good communicator I'm like hell no I made some really bad errors but did they deserve it on text?

42:11they'll all say that we'll leave it there I don't know thanks for supporting me you are so right we avoid conflict majority of the population avoids conflict I think two reasons one we don't know how to handle it go back to how we've grown up I know this is going to be like my narrative for today But have you seen people sweep things under the carpet? Have you seen the people around you shout and still not get to a resolution? And so I think for very few of us, we have really good role models of actually what resolving it looks like. And a difficult conversation equates to it might turn into conflict.

42:47So I think there's one part of it is we actually don't know how to have it. We don't know how to have the conversation. We don't know how to land it really well. and the second part is all of that internal dialogue is it going to create conflict is this going to create pushback is somebody going to be difficult are they going to not like me um and really similar to you actually I still say as much as I preach this I still have like a couple of situations in my life of people where I know that I'll have to go and have the conversation and I'll still do it I still feel sick yeah yeah to this day and this is like I preach this all the time so the feeling becomes so much smaller over time and you just learn to again sit in the

43:25Rochelle: discomfort and you know why that you you know have a knot in your tummy and you know why it gives you a lump in your throat or you make sure a bit sick and it doesn't mean that it's nice and obviously if we could take that away we would but you it's like knowing that listen it's for the best and the outcome will be for the best you know normally that's exactly how it looks right you have a feeling you have a difficult conversation or a difficult meet where you know that it's not going to be ideal and you're not sure how they're going to take it and yeah so on and so forth but you know at the end it's going to feel like a bit of a weight lifted from your shoulders yes spot on and I think we look at hard conversations or any sort of friction and tension as such a bad thing and I wonder if we actually looked at it as part of life and part of your relationships and we actually think about like what's healthy conflict you're supposed to disagree you're supposed to have different opinions you're supposed to challenge the status quo and if we actually made that part of like our relationship they'd be healthier because without those hard conversations you don't have trust question how can you comfortably start a difficult conversation like what's a good like leading line you know when you're thinking okay i've got to do this now i'll get it out like what have you got have you got kind of a sort of a go-to phrase that you you know how you say start with gratitude or however that looks definitely first of all don't beat around the bush because when you're having a hard conversation if you go in with all the niceties and then you land the message it's like you were being insincere so don't go around the houses just to make yourself feel comfortable yes because you're trying to avoid the discomfort remember it's not easy for the other person either um can we role play you know what i had a feeling you were gonna do this i feel like we should okay so you're gonna i'm like you can put this into whatever scenario you want but you're either going to fire me dump me or say that you don't want to be my friend anymore i don't know whatever this conversation is okay however you want it but just can you deliver it to me yeah fine uh let's do um i feel like friendships i was gonna do the dump one whatever you want to do let's do dump okay so my first kind of applies to everything right yeah it'll be the same for yeah first thing is signpost what you're gonna say so the reason why I'm going to give you an example is the other person doesn't know what's coming at them and you almost don't want to shock them so tell them what you're about to tell them.

45:49Rochelle I want to have a conversation about a relationship I feel like it's been tense over the last few months and it doesn't leave me feeling good. So I'm telling you what I'm about to tell you I haven't told you I'm about to break up with you yet but I'm signposting so that you know okay something's up I don't feel good yes if we're gonna just like apply that to firing somebody that is also a very specific situation so my big thing around that as well is get to the point in that situation almost deliver that hard message sooner rather than later yes I've got news to deliver it's bad and I want to get straight to the point there's few situations I would label as it's bad but that's quite an extreme situation and you don't want to put somebody into like the discomfort and draw that conversation out longer than it needs to be.

46:37Then your middle piece is land your point. Michelle, over the last few months, I feel that we aren't on the same page. We've drifted apart. We're really leading two separate lives. And whilst I've got a lot of love for the relationship we've had, this isn't going where I want it to go. I don't know if I'm supposed to respond here.

46:57Rochelle: No, I was like, I'm going to give you that. I was like, I'm really into this. I was like, right, okay. She's dumping me. What do I say? when I go from it. Okay. I'll give you the final part and then you can tell me how it lands. I think the last part we forget in a difficult conversation. So how you start is really important and how you end is really important. And often we just trail off. We just let it filter out. Our volume of our voice goes down. So round it up. Like, I'm thinking about whether I'd want to apologise here. I'm sorry that it's got to this place. This isn't the way I envisaged our relationship going.

47:32but I would like us to part ways in a really amicable way and then pause and let the other

47:38Rochelle: person like let the message land yes and almost give them a moment to digest and then it goes back to like let letting them I suppose have the floor a little bit right yeah so it's beginning middle end really yeah and being really concise with that but actually getting to almost getting to the point at the beginning yeah so you and then you elaborate and then you close. Yeah, really nice. Yeah. So you signpost so they know what's coming. It's a hard conversation or, okay, our relationship's not going in the direction I want. Okay, I've not been performing well at work. Okay, this friendship actually isn't meeting my needs.

48:14Or I was thinking of actually a client example. Somebody like returned a design address and it was ripped. Right. Like it makes me not want to lend things to my friend. You still got to have that conversation.

48:25Rochelle: Oh my God, try having two sisters. God, that are always in your wardrobe. I have three sisters, two in my wardrobe more than anything, and nothing comes back nice. I'm like, try clean it at least. Please give that to me in the same condition. Horrigious behavior. Yeah, so exactly as you said, like signpost it, it really, really primes the other person's brain to not go into a threat. And then you've got like, you're trying to reduce their likelihood of going into defense mode as well. Right. That's why you're doing it. Then exactly as you said, say your point, guys, don't beat around the bush.

48:52You're not doing anybody any favors by doing it. You're just prolonging what is already uncomfortable for both of you yes but then give the evidence like give the example and you spoke then about

49:04Rochelle: sort of like being defensive what do you think the difference is between being assertive and being defensive because I think they can often get sort of confused yeah I know I spent so much of my time like in a defensive space and I grew up through like a real perfectionism lens so everything had to be perfect and so I wasn't used to getting things wrong I wasn't used to failing So defensiveness massively comes from that space. Defending yourself as well as when you feel like you've been criticized and you need to justify your position on it. Whereas when you're being assertive, there is space for dialogue.

49:39There's space for both of you as well to walk out of a conversation and not agree. Yes. And I think a lot of the time we're communicating and converting and sharing and feeling like the other person has to agree or I have to walk away with the outcome I need. somebody had a really I feel like I'm really sitting in it with my clients at the moment because I was like the amount of examples I've got um but someone had a hard conversation this week and they said I went into that Amira and we prepped it and we were so well prepped for it and I'm so proud of them because they came from that space of I would never do this six months ago um and they were like I came out of that really expecting an apology and I didn't get it and so I think this piece around assertiveness is you still using your voice trusting your voice explaining and sharing that this still wasn't okay and knowing that you're going to walk away from that conversation and you might not have got what you meant yeah or what you needed whereas you defending yourself is justifying goes back into over explaining so that's the real difference between the two it's so interesting it's almost like you've got to be prepared for not getting the outcome that

50:42Rochelle: you think that you're going to get like and also my mum has always sort of taught me because throughout life I'll always go I would never have done that to him or I'd never done that to her and she was like stop expecting you from everybody else because you're going to live a life of disappointment and it's not to say that like you were the crown and just because you didn't you know that's not their story like they don't you know they did do that and that's how they feel and that might you know that doesn't mean that you positioned above them necessarily it's that they're your values and that's that but you've got to stop living life that you know you expect everyone else to follow suit because you're just everyone's going to disappoint you because because you would never doesn't mean that that's the case for everyone and I think it's always knowing that isn't it that okay because I've done that this is going to be the outcome and there's always room for that not to be possible but knowing that you're going to feel you know in a better place or a little bit lighter because you've done what you needed to do but you can't hand you know you can't sort of preempt that outcome as to what they what they're going to give you from that you know definitely and it goes back to the fact that we all see it from our own filters we're all our main character in our story in our life and we're not going to see it from that same perspective and i think if we have a little compassion for that it brings those expectations down either communicate your expectations or create room that we see things differently we're going to communicate differently and we're going to receive information differently yes let it breathe um i I've got a couple more questions here from people.

52:13Rochelle: Kelly Reeves sort of is staying on the topic of this. Kelly Reeves has asked you, what's the one thing you should never do in difficult conversations? Is there like a real no-no? Yeah, for sure. I've probably got like three. Don't use the word you. Like you did this, you never do that. You always do that. You're literally setting it up to become an argument. That's so interesting. What, because that's the way someone would receive it? you nine times out of ten are going to create a defensive reaction in somebody else because you made it personal well what if what if they did do something okay but you can't yeah no i'm so no i'm gonna give you the reframe i'm i'm so intrigued because that is that is really interesting because i suppose it then becomes a personal attack when you say you but like what if you did you just like you just need to yeah yeah switch it around and own it so own your feelings and your emotions about what happened so in terms of like an order of how you have those conversations goes back to be factual what actually happened what was the conversation um what was said what was done do the factual piece first because again you're encouraging them to look at the facts rather than if you criticize something about my behavior to this day I will still get defensive because you made it about me and my personality whereas if you made it about a behavior that's on the table I can look at it objectively I can look at that and be like damn I don't realize that came across like that for you so you want to do that factual piece first and so how would how would you do that how would you if if for I'm just hypothetically speaking if what I was annoyed about with you was I can't even ever imagine being annoyed at you that smiley face but if I was annoyed at you for I don't know betraying me or you know that's such an Aries thing I was like because I hate betrayal yeah I hate betrayal um so so how and say that I factually knew that you did betray me so how would I deliver that and how would I put almost betrayal on the table without doing like you with rather than like pointing the finger at you.

54:24Yeah, that is actually a really good example. So let's do friendship and let's say betrayal. Should you do slept with my boyfriend? Oh, but girl, you ain't going to be sitting there if you sit down.

54:37Rochelle: I mean, I'm with you. Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking of like really harsh betrayal. Something really extreme, yes. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I would go down the route of we need to talk about what's happened. A boundary and a line has been crossed. and for me, I can't see a way forward from this. You slept with him. For me, you know that on our friendship, that's a line that never, ever gets crossed. So you're talking about what's happened. It's factual that you slept with him. It's not, you've betrayed me. It's factual on that, you know, what's happened has happened piece. Yeah, exactly. Then once you've landed that point, I'd go into how that made me feel.

55:17I didn't see us in this position. I feel so let down. I feel so betrayed and I can't believe that we're in this position, then I'd go to clothes and be like, for me, that's a line under our friendship. I can't move forward from this and I don't want us to be friends after this. That's me doing it in a really polite way on the spot. Yeah, of course. I'd land it a lot heavier and probably add a lot more to it. Keep pulling my hair out. But yeah. I'm like, woo!

55:45Rochelle: We can still communicate. But yeah, no, I know what you mean. It's really like, it's interesting because every point landed and I really know how you feel and I know what was wrong. Yeah. But it wasn't like, you're this, you're that. Nothing good is going to come out of you pointing the finger. Well, it's just going to get raised and raised and raised and raised, isn't it? Yeah. And especially in that type of situation. So if you're listening and you've still got something really heightened like that, whether it's work business or whether it's personal you in that type of situation really unlikely you're going to see eye to eye so you're not having the conversation to come back to each other or to find a way of moving forward you're having the conversation to draw the line and say enough is enough yes you escalate in that isn't going to help you and isn't going to help them you're going to get to the point where that conflict like just really explodes and it's not healthy for either of you yeah so rather than doing it land your point and get your point across because you still feel betrayed and that is how you feel and you're allowed to say hey you crossed the line that should never be crossed but there's a way to do it without you losing your emotions and that's the emotional regulation piece yes yes you're so so right and that is it's that is there's a world of difference there a world of difference um i want to sort of remove ourselves from the negative almost and now focus on the fundamentals of great communication yeah because we know we've touched on like what we shouldn't be doing and how that looks so if someone is listening or watching this and thinking yeah i get it i need to work my communication let's sort of try and break it down simply what are the three fundamentals of being a strong communicator regardless of your personality Yeah.

57:34Know your communication style, first of all. How do you like to communicate? Are you direct, to the point? Do you like to build rapport? Are you a facts figures kind of person? Are you really thinking about the people and want to have a collaborative approach? Part of that, still point one, is then adapt. Because when you communicate, it's never about you. It's who are you talking to, what information do they need, and how do they want to receive it? And that's where you really learn the art of influencing. Right. That's point one. Mm-hmm. Point two? I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm in. I've got a mix because I have like, ideally I want to give you five, but I really want to keep it.

58:09Give us five if you want to give us five. Yeah, absolutely. We're changing it. Five fundamentals. Thank you. Thank you. Self-talk. So really get a hold on your narrative. What are you saying to yourself? How degrading is it? How mean is it? How bullying? How much do you belittle yourself? And start to retrain that because until you do that, you're going to find it so difficult to show up authentically, to show up confidently, to voice your ideas, to lead a team. Like we need to get a hold on it. Third one would be regulate your nervous system. Like really. And I know it's tough and especially as high achievers.

58:47That's like my real thing because we're used to pushing, we're used to pressure, we're used to perfectionism, we're used to never getting it wrong. And so your nervous system is used to being on, it's used to being busy. And anything other than that is going to feel so weird. but you need a calmer i'm not saying it has to be perfect all the time but we need a calmer nervous system so that you can have the harder conversations yes you don't go into threat mode

59:11Rochelle: all the time yeah and you can't sort of you can't pour from an empty cup you know it's that it's it really is like filling yourself up to be because some people are really good at that and i fall into that and i'm also guilty of going okay i need now i need a second because i've poured out into everybody else yeah and i'm that person by default that you know and i say i'm really good like that it's not a badge of honor sometimes it can be quite a toxic thing to have or to be because I'm that friend I'm that person that's like oh my god I need you for this I need you for that I need and I'm there I'm like yep okay Amazon let's go yeah but actually it's you need to make sure you're constantly taking that time and switching off and filling yourself up so you can enable yourself to do that and like you say it's that I'm so for regulating the nervous system I think I just think it's so important yeah and find your way of doing it there doesn't have to be one way it can change month to month whether it is like moving your body whether it's what you're eating whether it's some people massively recharge by being with other people so find your way mine's music like old school R &B that's what's going to settle my soul oh so good yeah yeah me too that's so important at the minute mine's real house mine's a Beverly Hills in a bath I've done this thing where I pulled this table up in my bathroom put my iPad on and I'm just like in the bath and it's really hot and I'm watching like it's the reunion episodes at the minute and I'm in.

1:00:30Rochelle: You know that just escapism? Yeah. Like it's so, Marvin's like, what is this you keep watching? I'm like, don't worry about it. It's not for you. It's not, you know, it's not going to land. Yeah. But it's just that for me is like anything, whether, and it might, some days it's Pilates, some days it's like going on a walk and talking to my best friend. Yeah. Inventing, you know, it looks very differently, but you've got to have that time where you go, oh, I needed that. I really second it before we do the next point because I love reality TV and my mum has, always cuss me in but i really struggle for an intelligent person why you love it so much yeah it's escapism and it's the mental switch yeah i agree it's like handy floss for the brain like i don't i just need a bit of like which why is dorit not talking to kyle and i just just for a second i need it i'm so not that dramatic in life yeah so for me i'm like this is great you absorb yourself in another world yeah who knew reality tv could be therapy but it is from a champion.

1:01:24Number four, listen. Like, listen. We're always trying to talk. We're always trying to get our point across. It's the toughest thing. I know that we've grown up in a society that values the loudest voice in the room, but we're going to have to change that narrative. We need to listen. You can't learn from each other. You can't move something forward if you don't listen. And we're allowed to not agree. Number five, I'm going to land it on... hmm pause well i'm gonna give two on this but it can work both ways we're at six and we're taking it thank you we're here pause before you say anything like pause oh you give your brain a chance to engage and actually think about what do i want to say so just pause yes still gonna feel awkward you need it um last one we're not asking off questions we're not curious enough we're so intent on getting our point across or feeling that we need to be understood or heard or seen if you ask questions you're going to learn something and you don't have to agree with that person's perspective but it might just give you food for thought yes and also I think sometimes

1:02:35Rochelle: there's a part of us that's embarrassed to ask questions too or it makes it might then come across that you haven't sort of got your shit together or you know that you don't that you're not intelligent enough or you're not you know and but I think I'm I love curious people I'm like and you know my mum's always said I'm nosy which kind of by default is great because I you know I love talking and I'm a host and I like you know I host conversations but it's being curious is I love it I love it that my kids are curious I mean by the end of the night I'm exhausted because they've asked me why a million times and you know a billion questions but I think that's like it's so important to be curious and be interested in whatever it is that you're doing in life whether that's like whatever your vocation is but you can always keep learning and keep adding value to what it is you have to offer so yeah I think sometimes people get embarrassed to ask but actually you're only going to learn more and something you'll find you know 99 % of the time people really love it when you ask them something and they love to help yes yeah and especially as well if we've grown up as well feeling like we can't ask help ask for help we should have it all together yes that's not a natural thing for us to lean into yes yeah you're so so right and then lastly I would like to know if you could give every woman one piece of advice about speaking up what would it be?

1:04:02Learn to trust your voice and your opinions and know that they do have value. It comes through practice, so you're not going to go from zero to 100 overnight, but you're on this earth for a reason and your voice deserves to be heard. So what's it costing you by not sharing those ideas?

1:04:21Rochelle: Yes. Do you know what? I love that. And do you know me and my friend do this thing? and she taught me this where we write a list of kind of and I suppose speaking up really sort of comes into that we write a list of if we don't go for this or we don't say this or we don't sort of grab this opportunity with both hands yeah let's make a list of the pros and the list of the cons and the the the cons will always outweigh the pros because actually as in like it would be a disservice to you if you don't like if you don't do that you might not beat somebody if you don't and so on and so forth and okay if you don't go today what's the great thing that's going to happen well I'll probably always be thinking what if I didn't say this I'll probably and if you write yourself a little list of the like the good and the bad you know it will actually push you to do it because you can actually clearly see yeah this is crazy for me to not speak up or this is crazy for me to not take that opportunity definitely because how can somebody come and find you or collab with you or work with you or find your services if it's only you're the only one that knows about it yeah yeah it's a very very good point thank you so much I've absolutely loved this and there's so much takeaway for women listening to this I feel like this is such a full circle moment that we were like met on zoom and now we're here in the studio so thanks for coming in and yeah I loved it I feel like I'm about to go and say things with my chest in the office get ready gang I'm coming out everyone ready thank you guys thank you don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you don't miss out because next time I'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched if like me you're a watcher then please follow us on youtube and don't forget to like and subscribe

1:06:20Thank you.