Breaking the Mould: Why One Leader Gave His Legal Team a 4-Day Work Week - Marcin Durlak - S9E32

20:01Marcin Durlak:And in our case, yeah, we'll make a decision today, implement tomorrow. Yep.

20:05Gregory E. B. Smith:And it is a USP and a competitive advantage. And I think that is the thing where boutique firms can move at speed to implement. I love it. Okay. What's been the biggest lesson you've learned whilst building your firm today?

20:21Marcin Durlak:yeah i think the biggest lesson uh i would probably say is it's normal that not everything will go according to your plan uh and whether you consider it failure or or whether it's you consider it a challenge obstacle it's just uh inevitable and inseparable that in any business or career path, there will be ups and downs. And yeah, so it's, you know, on LinkedIn, I've been posting a lot about success, but I try to keep it balanced. It's not all about success. It's not always upwards trajectory. It's always up and down. So as long as you learn from the downs and learn your lessons, and as long as you think constructively about today tomorrow rather than yesterday what didn't happen yesterday i think you should be able to to maintain the approach trajectory so yeah learning from mistakes and learning from experience it's a big thing yeah it's inevitable that there will be downs

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22:18Marcin Durlak:Now back to the show.

22:19Gregory E. B. Smith:Mistakes make you, don't they? Ultimately, you know, the more you can kind of move yourself forward from those, and I think also having mentors and good people around you to potentially pick you up when you go through challenging times, that's important. And that leads to what I was going to ask you next actually, but what were some of the challenges you faced with your journey of building the firm and how have you been able to overcome them?

22:37Marcin Durlak:I think the biggest, I would probably say two, but they probably close linked together. So when we set up IMD in 2015, the first three years or so were upwards trajectory. And by, at the time I didn't realize it's inevitable that there are downs as well as apps. And we kept investing in a team and everything else. And then suddenly we hit massive cashflow problems. And I think it's, you know, of course, you know, we can, you can try to manage, but, you know, financially also for any business, it's not always upwards trajectory. There are some ups and downs and we hit serious down, right? You know, there was some serious cashflow problems and we were lucky that we're able to navigate it, but, but we had to make some serious, you know, changes, make some decisions.

23:28Marcin Durlak:And I need to say at this point that, you know, I never trained as a business owner manager, trained to be a lawyer. I started working with a business coach back in 2018, which was absolutely massive learning curve for me. There's so much stuff we've gone through and the foundations we put in place. It's been absolutely incredible. And yeah, It was actually Sanjeev Dodia from ActionCoach. I have to mention the name because he's such an important person on our journey. And yeah, it was an incredible journey. And we're still building on those foundations and all the challenges were financial. But I think it went back to the team selection, the culture that we had that we're not even aware of.

24:20Marcin Durlak:so yeah in addition to systems processes etc I think the biggest learning from then from the time was yeah how important the culture the values and team selection is and we were guilty so many times of you know maybe allowing people to stay longer than they should have We're always thinking that maybe it's better to have someone than no one. And I think our approach is different now. It's definitely, we're very selective in getting the right people. We don't always get it right. And it's another thing, we have to accept that we don't always get every decision right. And it's okay, as long as you can draw conclusions and move forward.

25:12So big challenges, both financial culture team. We're lucky to navigate it with some considerable effort.

25:25Marcin Durlak:And it's not always been since 2018. It's not always been upwards, but the downs were much lower than the one in 2018. So, yeah, if you run a business, whether it's a law firm or any business, it's inevitable. it's about learning from those experiences and hopefully not making the same mistakes again

25:45Gregory E. B. Smith:yeah and and i love that you touched on coaching it's so important because you you don't know what you don't know and you may have blind spots and actually having someone come in and you know it's so it's so important isn't it and i think i just put it in a simple sports setting you look at any professional tennis player you look at any successful star they've got coaches they've got people around them are bringing out the best of them and i think business coaching is one of of the best investments you can do and it shows to your people and yourself that you you really are passionate you want to be the best you want to be the top of your game and sometimes you don't know what like you say what's going on outside of the four walls and having that strategic thought process and coaching is so important love it okay let's fast forward now to 2023 where you introduced a four-day work week with full pay what prompted you to adopt a four-day work week uh yeah that's We tried January 23, we implemented on the topic of kind of from decision of implementation.

26:39Marcin Durlak:Decision was made mid December, just before Christmas implemented first of January. But the full credit has to go to my wife and business partner, Yvonne. It was her two motivators. The first one was her personal one. she really struggled and you know we need to realize so many lawyers struggling with with the mental health and the challenges that the life not on the work but also life brings trying to combine the work personal life and everything so it brings lots of challenges and she thought yeah i really need to change something but but also thinking about the wider team her team in family department or lawyers in general struggling with mental health and she thought yeah there must be a way to do it differently and she would be kind of talking about the four-day week maybe for some time but never that seriously and then in december 22 we talked about it she made the decision yeah gonna roll it out uh and and in january 23 it started as effectively a pilot in the family department.

27:46Marcin Durlak:It was absolute success. You know, people were obviously a little bit anxious how are we going to fit, you know, all the work in four days because we really wanted to implement the four day in a pure form rather than, okay, we'll work Monday to Thursday, but we expected to do 10 hours a week, et cetera. So we obviously kept the same salary. We kept the same financial expectations and obviously client satisfaction expectations. We just staggered the day off, the fifth day off across the week. But then we just adopted the mindset and always been part of a culture. It's about output, not the input.

28:30Marcin Durlak:It's not about the number of hours you work. But the output and output for us is happy clients and financial results. If this can be achieved in less time, it's a win-win situation. And kind of trying always to kind of promote this within the team and how we can work differently, how we can work smarter to achieve the same. And maybe we can talk about it a little bit more later. But yeah, at nine months on end of financial year, we genuinely managed to achieve 122 % so 22 % increase in fee income productivity with no substantial changes to the team having recorded 80 % of hours on the system so it's not that people record the same amount of hours and but 122 % on 80 % of the time so this came by you know optimizing non-chargeable time but also optimizing you know the work done on the cases where there's agreed fee naturally if it's our rate is slightly more difficult and again so one of the challenges we can talk about but yeah the initial results were absolutely fantastic so then back in 2000 in october 2023 we we decided to roll it out across the firm uh right now since in spring 2024 everyone's been working on a four-day week and we're not even looking back uh we're growing profitably it is growing year-end 24, achieved 29 % growth in profitability with everyone being on a four-day week.

30:04Marcin Durlak:So it's working for us. I'm sure it's not, it helps in terms of better work-life balance, avoiding burnout, but it's like not a solution for everything. You know, we still have a team and we talk about it openly, struggling with some challenges, mental health challenges, and we're looking for the ways to support them, but it definitely helped to get improved work-life balance.

30:29Gregory E. B. Smith:Yeah, which is important, isn't it? I think wellbeing is so, so important. You want people coming that feel refreshed, happy, motivated, full of purpose and can really deliver their best for themselves and also, of course, for your clients. And yeah, sometimes less is more, isn't it? Less days, more output, more productivity, more things that can happen. Okay, in a recent article, Q &A on implementing the four-day week in a law firm, you share, we rely heavily on our stream framework and culture of innovation. We've implemented several time-saving tools. So can you tell us about the tools you're currently utilizing to maintain an open mindset across the firm and encourage everyone to work smarter?

31:09Marcin Durlak:Yeah, so when we, it's been a learning curve from us. And I think part of our culture is there's always room for improvement. We can always do better. So that's part of who we are. But at the back of the four-day week implementation, and with this mindset, it's all about output rather than input, you know, happy clients, financial results. We came up with something I called a stream framework. So S4, standardization. Think what you can standardize. T4, technology AI. Let's think what tools, what AI we can implement to help us deliver the same or more in less time. R for rest and recharge. And, you know, we have people reporting that, yeah, after this extra day off, they come, you know, fully repressed.

31:56Marcin Durlak:They become more productive, which is fantastic. E for eliminating efficiencies. I mean, I guarantee that whether you are working in a law firm or anywhere else, there will be 10 or 20 % of your time or tasks that you're doing that have zero importance or there's no productivity, not bringing any value. So eliminating inefficiencies. A for automations. So what things you can automate in your workflows. And M for meeting efficiency. And I think we quite often see this in large organizations where we have five, six, eight people sitting in a meeting and and not really, there's no need for it. So is the meeting necessary?

32:38Marcin Durlak:Does it have a structured agenda? Instead of one hour, can we do it in half an hour? Instead of half an hour, can we do it in 15 minutes? So the stream framework is something we share, we talk about it and encourage very much everyone to think about it, how they can improve the work of individually within their department. We also brought actually, we respond to your question shortly, but we also implemented innovation bonus, just a small bonus, but just to encourage and incentivize everyone to think about how we can work differently. So it's not only about introducing AI tools and technology, but also maybe thinking about different methods of working, how we can work differently.

33:25Marcin Durlak:And it has been a real success. So, I mean, the tools are different, but even as simple as digital note-taking, right? In all the days, you know, when you have a meeting with a client, whether teams are in person, you would bring in a trainee or junior who would take notes, spend an hour in a meeting, then, you know, put the notes together. It's two hours out of the window, right?

33:48Gregory E. B. Smith:Yeah.

33:48Marcin Durlak:So we use, you know, the digital note taker plugs into the Teams calls or in-person meetings, and you have a beautiful bullet points, transcript, summary, action points in a meeting in zero time. So that's just one of the examples. And we use, for example, text plays for kind of document, sort of for the email, automated email templates, snippet production. A number of kind of little tools that kind of make our life easier. Very much look forward to implementing Clio and look forward to their AI capabilities, which will, I'm hoping, take the productivity to the next level. So sometimes it's not even about the AI tools.

34:40Marcin Durlak:It's about kind of thinking outside of the box and how we can make the work more efficient. and what's really important and how we can achieve the same outcome in less time, right? You know, whether we really need to spend an hour drafting a piece of document or maybe the same objective can be achieved by sending a simple email, etc. So it just really depends on the scenario.

35:02Gregory E. B. Smith:Yeah, and I love that you motivate people as well to innovate, you know, and actually their ideas feel seen, heard and valued. Hence, there's, you know, a small bonus like you say at the end of it as well. And yeah, like you're touching on there, little tools but big impact, right? And you're building momentum. You're adding inputs. What I described as energy inputs with these pieces of technology. And obviously, when Clio arrives with their Clio Duo and their AI tools, I think it's going to really enhance, obviously, workflows and efficiencies. OK, so going back to the four day week, then, what would be your advice to other law firm owners that might be listening to this who might be thinking about the idea or thinking of adopting a four day working week to their firm?

35:39Gregory E. B. Smith:What would you say? Yeah, I think I would probably say that first you really need to consider the culture and

35:52Marcin Durlak:the team because I think for this initiative and for remote working, by the way, we've been operating remotely with still office, head office, Manchester office in London and Birmingham, but everyone has a full flexibility. it needs to be based on trust. There is no room for micromanagement. But the culture and the right culture and the right people is absolute foundation. So first I would look at and have a reflection on what the culture actually is and if there are right people to make this move. So assuming it is, then you can start small, right? We started small with a pilot in family department.

36:40Marcin Durlak:This was announced as a pilot for a period of six months in one department. So this way you allow yourself to test it without long-term commitment. And I would also say it's about identifying what the success look like in terms of the numbers. So what's really, really important. And I think there was a period of time where our KPIs were like really, really complex. We were measuring far too many things. And now we're keeping simple, right? It comes down to happy clients. And we measure client satisfaction both at the end of the case. We also send out a net promoter score survey to every open client every quarter.

37:27Marcin Durlak:On this basis, we measure client satisfaction for individual lawyers, for the department, for the whole firm. So we measure client satisfaction and we measure financial results. So billing and business development depending on the person. And obviously, you know, there are some issues and someone needs support and we can drill down the numbers. But going back to what I think and what I suggest is identify what the success look like and what you expect from a person or team, etc. Keep it simple and then just measure, measure, measure, measured output. And I think it's about the change in mentality as well.

38:08Marcin Durlak:In a sense, it's not about number of hours you sit in front of a desk. it's about what really matters yeah and what matters is happy clients and financial results

38:22Gregory E. B. Smith:for the firm so yeah and so kiss principle keeping it simple is so so so important because if you confuse people you're going to lose people and you're going to cause overwhelm and you know I remember a mentor said to me very early on in my career what gets measured gets done right so if you can simplify what gets measured then you can review it you can look at the data you can make more informed decisions on data rather than emotions sometimes when your emotions go up your intelligence decision making can go down so i love that approach and really good advice thanks for sharing that okay let's talk about imd corporate because it's a trading style of uh your firm focusing on legal solutions for global businesses so tell us more about the corporate

38:57Marcin Durlak:segment and the solutions they deliver yeah so uh imd corporate is essentially a trading startup IMD solicitors. Around five years ago we thought that we'd love to create a dedicated brand for businesses. It has evolved to a brand that involves those international and local businesses with both international and local client base. And we do offer services across the range of areas from from corporate, commercial disputes, construction, corporate immigration, so employment. So yeah, pretty full range of support. Very exciting, growing project. I think as a law firm, we kind of reached a really exciting stage where we built those foundations by way of, you know, obviously great culture, core team, but also kind of building our reputation, winning or being shortlisted for a number of awards, climbing up the legal 500 ladder, getting the Sunday Times best places to work and attracting some really top talent from some top 30, top 50 law firms and really exciting times that we kind of you know start growing on the building on this one and growing the team and some absolutely amazing uh experts and people joining our team so uh but growth yes exciting yes but i always say

40:32Gregory E. B. Smith:not at all costs so grow as you go and i guess um you know this leads nicely onto to my area which is legal recruiting right because there's growing you're going to be hiring so i want to talk about how you hire for cultural fit over sort of stereotypical cv tick-boxing styles and what are some of the factors you take into consideration when making a culturally fit hire for the firm?

40:53Marcin Durlak:So I always believe that the person who is a great cultural fit can learn and grow and build experience. Obviously, naturally, sometimes we're looking for head of department, partner level, so this experience for many positions will be critical. But generally, I do believe that person who is right culture of it can learn the skills, but someone who is the wrong culture of it, even with absolutely amazing skills, they will not fit the team and can do more damage. And I remember speaking to one of the lawyers at one of the conferences and he was boasting about his client following, which was like very, very substantial.

41:39And dealing with

41:42Marcin Durlak:international arbitration potential would be a great fit. But the way this person was speaking to a female colleague was maybe indirectly, but disrespectful. And I wouldn't want to have this sort of person on a team. But responding to your question, so yes, of course, we're looking at our core values and core behaviors, respect, honesty, commitment to excellence, but caring. But I'm also a big fan of the ideal team player model by Patrick Lanchioni. So humble, hungry and smart is the model. I very much recommend this book to any business owner or manager. So this is the model we try to apply as well.

42:30Marcin Durlak:Yeah, absolutely love it. And so it's people, you know, that fit this model that will fit to our team, I think.

42:38Gregory E. B. Smith:Yeah. And I love that you have that focus, you know, because it's important, isn't it? I remember, again, someone said to me earlier on when I was going into business and setting up things, he said, sometimes, Rob, it's better to have a whole than an a-hole. And, you know, there is some truth behind that for sure. Okay. This has been a really fascinating discussion. Let's talk a lot about now going into the future because you've been very keen to adopt technology, lean into AI, find new entrepreneurial service offerings, etc, etc. So the firm is thriving. As you've mentioned, you've had multi-awards, you're a team of 50, you've enlisted in the Sunday Times, best places to work, etc, etc.

43:14Gregory E. B. Smith:But what do some of the future plans of the firm look like?

43:17Marcin Durlak:Yeah, I think we're definitely at the stage of growing and building the team. So yes, we might be approaching a team of 50, but, you know, there are some key appointments we're looking to make and want to get them right. So I think that the future looks building on the reputation that we have and getting more recognition and being seen as, you know, innovative, innovative both in terms of working practices, technology, innovative firm, an attractive employer that also values mental health and well-being for the team and keeping the right balance between delivering absolute excellent client service and also looking after the lawyers.

44:12Marcin Durlak:But how the future looks like? it's about growth. It's about balanced growth. It's about becoming the well-known brand for the work we do. And yeah, having absolutely amazing team that is very much aligned with our culture. Yeah, it's all about people. It's all about the team and culture.

44:39Gregory E. B. Smith:Yeah, people matter, don't they? And I think we is greater than me. The more you can build that team and you can go together and grow you can have such impact and you're doing a great job and you emphasize so much around values and culture and that's obviously why the firms continue to go from strength to strength this has been a really insightful conversation so before i let you go for our list for sort of solicitors who are also aspiring entrepreneurs what is your top piece of advice for building a successful practice from the ground up i'm a risk taker but i would

45:07Marcin Durlak:say just give it a go, dive in. But be open-minded, accept the fact that you're not always going to get it right, accept the fact that, and it's part of our culture, there's always room for improvement. It's about the continuous improvement, it's about self-awareness. And And if things go wrong, just try the best constructive solution and then just absolutely you can do your best. So yeah, I think it's about taking a risk sometimes and learning from the mistakes because ultimately running a business is a massive learning curve, regardless of where we are and what's the size of the business. And as long as we learn from it, the future is bright.

45:58Gregory E. B. Smith:I love that mindset. And it's so true. And I heard recently, you know, it's not the hardest working people that are the most successful. It's people who take the most amount of risk that are. And I think that leads to what you said. You know, sometimes if you don't risk anything, you potentially risk everything. You could be one away business idea if you've got that floating in your head or that partnership or that application for that role or whatever it might be. You might be comfortable in a job, but sort of take that risk to take that next step. Love that advice. This has been a really, really insightful conversation.

46:23Gregory E. B. Smith:I've thoroughly enjoyed it much. And so it's been an absolute pleasure sort of having you on the show. if our listeners want to learn more about your career or indeed imd solicitors where can they go to find out more feel free to share any websites any social media handles we'll also share them in

46:36Marcin Durlak:this episode for you too yeah absolutely if you want to find out more about the firm the website is imd.co.uk i'm always happy to connect with with other lawyers and not on lawyers so please find me on LinkedIn and say hi and connect. So LinkedIn is always an amazing tool to connect. And you never know when at some point in the future, the connection and how it may evolve, I suppose. So please feel free to connect.

47:12Gregory E. B. Smith:And I'll keep banging on about it. You're potentially only one connection away from changing your life. So look, Marcin, thanks so much again. It's been a real pleasure having you on the Legally Speaking podcast sponsored by Clio. But from now, from all of us, wishing you lots of continued success with your career, indeed, the firm and future pursuits over and out. Thank you for listening to this week's episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world leading content and collaboration hub, The Legally Speaking Club, over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com for the link to join our community there.

47:48Gregory E. B. Smith:Over and out.