Redefining Legal Careers: Brett Colvin on Building Goodlawyer & the Rise of Fractional Law - S9E43

32:46and the ability for a lot of these lawyers to build something that is very material from a compensation and sort of purpose perspective, like challenging work, good compensation, but isn't all or nothing as it would be certainly in the case of you're pursuing partnership in a big firm. And likewise, if you were continuing to sort of march up the ladder within a large enterprise on the in-house legal side of things. Fractional has been this sort of alternative world for lawyers that want the benefits of a little variety, like similar to private practice. But you get to work on sort of the closest to the metal legal problems that really move the business forward.

33:40And you get to do it on your own terms. and I think you know one lawyer that just jumps to mind immediately is this woman who you know has been with us I don't know close to a year now I believe uh in the Good Lawyer Network Sherry Hozaki who you know prior to Good Lawyer was the GC if I'm not mistaken of Indigo Canada and then was the general counsel of Cadbury UK she was the chocolate queen and you know Sherry can do anything she wants you know she's not that late in her career she really could do anything she wants. And she chooses to work with good lawyer because that's what she wants. She wants the flexibility to work with a couple sophisticated clients, but still have time to spend with her family and travel.

34:25And, you know, she's not looking for a full plate. She's looking for, you know, a two thirds, three quarter plate that still gives her tremendous flexibility while also generating her a pretty sizable income. So that to me, I would say is one example of there should be more ways to skin the cat as a lawyer. It shouldn't be all or nothing. We see the stats of how many lawyers just leave the profession entirely. I know how challenging it is for lawyers just to stand up their own solo shop and attempt to do this fractional thing on themselves. And that's really where good lawyer originated and where we continue to go is how do we facilitate these lawyers who want to build more intentional careers, which could be full time.

35:13It could be covering leaves. So then you get to get some new variety next year, or it could be building this portfolio fractional practice. I'm not too fussed. If any good lawyers are listening that want to build their careers more intentionally, like this is the place to do it. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. Are you frustrated with your current legal management software? You're not alone, and thousands of solicitors across the UK feel your pain. However, the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration. Clio is here to help.

35:49Their dedicated migration team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information, and if you have any questions, you'll get award-winning support available 24-5 by live chat, phone, and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It's no wonder Clio is consistently receiving five-star ratings with ease of use and top-notch service. If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Look, I've sat on panels this year. I've been very fortunate to speak at the Festival of Entrepreneurs, which is a large entrepreneurial event over here in the UK.

36:31and one of the co-founders and founder of an organization called Connected said a great line, which is the future is fractional. I don't think it's so true. You know, you look at that because intentional and, you know, time is our greatest commodity is the one thing none of us can get back. We can all make more cash. You know, we can all go out there and make things happen, but protecting your time and actually delivering on those moments that maybe you've had to forego before. Maybe it is going to see a relative or, you know, a spouse or whatever it might be. That time is is precious and so having this fractional opportunity now and it means you can play the game on your terms i think that's super exciting and i think that that changes the game completely i think it's awesome why good lawyer exists and you're giving these options to people so they can have really enriched and they also don't get suffer from burnout and all the other things that we've seen which have been real issues over the years as well um and yeah i also just just just to touch on that for a second.

37:24I also think that it really aligns with a lot of the technology advances that we're seeing. Like when I think of what AI, just to put that out there, is going to do to the legal industry, it's very hard for me, and I know that a lot of the firms are already struggling with this to see a world where you can keep just trying to find leverage with more folks at the bottom of the pyramid when so many of these sort of rote tasks that you know we would have started our careers doing that was kind of how you learned the game and like you know the number of documents I have reviewed is like tremendous um but it's really hard for you to imagine a world five, 10 years down the line where we haven't automated those tasks away because clients, especially the big, juicy enterprise clients with tremendous leverage in those conversations are demanding it.

38:30I don't know how that business model continues to thrive in the way that it has for the past hundred years. Whereas fractional, if you can give a Sherry Hozaki the power of 100 digital associates that can run through all of this sort of rote commoditized work, you still need a Sherry Hozaki. You still need somebody at that sort of executive level or ring down that can, you know, guide the workflow, ensure the product is what you need. And so for me, I view AI as this tremendous tailwind on this more flexible, fractional, whatever you want to call it, movement in law and other professional services.

39:14So for me, I think AI is a boon in a way that I'm sure there are a lot of folks, you know, at some of the bigger, more traditional shops that, you know, are scratching their heads saying, how can we implement this? And, you know, you know, it's a little bit of an innovator's dilemma for folks at the firms. And yeah, I mean, I reference this quite regularly, but it's worth repeating just to build on what you're saying there. Yeah, and we've had Piers Linney, who was a former Shark Tank investor, Dragonstone investor over here in the UK, former lawyer come on the show. And he talks a lot about a value pyramid.

39:46And it's related to professional services. It could be a lawyer. It could be an accountant. It could be an insurance. It doesn't matter what you are. But basically, technology is coming in and innovation. The AI ship has left the harder. It's only exponentially going to get faster and better and better and better. It's still in the dial-up stage. So you, as a service provider, need to ensure that you're staying ahead of this pyramid. like you say, the mundane is getting automated. So you still need that top quality expert, that human insight to maybe execute or oversee. But really, these organizations need to think about how can we actually stay relevant and give that strategic or whatever that human to human insight to clients to be valuable.

40:22Otherwise, AI will eat your lunch. And I think that's why a lot of organizations need to get their head around. And another insight that I found fascinating was from Jess Bezos, obviously the founder of Amazon. And he talks a lot about in a world of change you know we're in a constant world of change what are some of the things amazon should be thinking about that are never going to change and he said it'll be hard for him to wake up in a world where he would expect his customers to be happy to wait longer for the delivery of their products he would find it harder to make on customers want to pay higher prices he would find and so you see actually when we're in this world of constant change what are some of the points like you've been saying you've been doubling down on your ideal customer persona what are some of the things that are probably likely never to change or very unlikely and really double down on those.

41:06And I think that's a really good lesson for people to think about when they're really going to try to innovate and find solutions to problems. Yeah. I mean, you know, and I think that, you know, just kind of like paraphrasing that in the legal context, it's hard for me to imagine, you know, a business partner within an organization that's working with the in-house team, you know, getting too much clarity around what the legal requirements are around the legal experts understanding the business as best they can. And, you know, having some of that human interaction so that everybody has the peace of mind, we're making the right decision.

41:47And, you know, for me, the other piece of the puzzle has always been, you know, I think this shout out to Clio, pulled this out of the Clio Trends report years and years ago. I've got Clio Trends in my first investor deck a few times. And the amount of unmet legal need, not just the access to justice crisis, not just small businesses that can't afford a lawyer, so they're just whipping up contracts on ChatTBT, but even inside large organizations. The amount of unmet legal need is unbelievable. Like there's so much more legal support and guidance and risk assessment and all of these things that can be provided inside even the largest organizations.

42:30And, you know, to the Bezos point, like no business partner is going to be upset that they're getting more clarity and have a better sort of, you know, a greater belief that their legal partners understand the true business and what's at stake for, you know, the bottom line and also the people there. So, yeah, I think that there's a lot of room to move up that Maslow's hierarchy or whatever you kind of called it before. so I'm not worried I mean our whole business is predicated on the future needing good lawyers so you know if we're in a world where we don't need good lawyers anymore like okay we're living in a pretty we're living in a pretty crazy future state yeah well that leads nicely I did say we'll talk about it to the the future of law summit which um you know I think is absolutely fantastic you hosted it once again this year um it's all about empowering legal professionals with tools obviously to navigate thrive rapidly in the evolving industry which we've been touching on obviously throughout this conversation so how did the idea come about to start with one of our strengths historically has definitely been um on both the content and the event side of the equation that's certainly been those two pieces have been very critical to you know good lawyers growth and especially that sort of brand recognition you know not just across canada but across north america and you know, more and more folks from around the world that see what we're doing, especially on LinkedIn.

44:01And so doing something bigger than a webinar and more thought leadership oriented than a giant yacht party, which we've also become fairly known for, that was sort of the, the meeting of the minds on that was how do we do something big that, you know, isn't just fun, but also opens the door to some conversations that we don't hear a lot in the legal industry. I've been to my fair share of CPD or CLE over the years. The vast majority of it is highly technical and there's a place for that, but I think there's a shortage of more sort of human-esque content, conversations that, you know, are a lot more vulnerable than most lawyers are open to on a typical basis.

44:56And, you know, I think, you know, for me, that was just a gap that we were able to fill, especially when you have personalities like Chad and Pauline who are able to run a show like that and, you know, just truly wear their hearts on their sleeves. So, So, yeah, I think it was sort of melding our strengths with some gaps that we saw in the market and really trying to bring something that, you know, was highly accessible. You know, that's why we make it free and virtual every year, but also very meaningful for folks that, you know, participate and tune in. Yeah. And you deliver on what I call to people and I speak to a lot of people is about CC, constant community.

45:36I think the community that you're building with GoodLawyer through everything you're putting on, it's just authentic. I had the pleasure of being involved in this year's 2025 Future of Law Summit and listened to many of the sessions before me. And these are very accomplished professionals that maybe 10, 20 years would not be sharing so vulnerably or openly about some of the challenges, some of the frustrations. And I think it's so much richer for it that you put on these safe spaces where you allow people to authentically share. I think the level of innovation, the level of, and I think I even said it in my talk, maybe we're drowning in information, but craving wisdom, the amount of wisdom that share through the future of law summit and what you're putting on is tremendous.

46:16And so I'd encourage people to definitely check it out. And was there a favorite moment for you this year for the future of law summits? I think there was a awards. Tell us a little bit more for folks who may not been able to sort of get around it. And is there going to be one in next year as well? Yeah, I mean, we did have the Future of Law Awards for the first time, our inaugural Future of Law Awards. And that was the in-person component following the summit where we celebrated, you know, five outstanding in-house lawyers. I mean, we had probably about 15 to 20 finalists there in person in Toronto, all exceptional.

46:53And, you know, we brought on an independent, also highly distinguished board of, you know, GCs from across the country that, you know, were the ultimate judges to vote on these awards. So unfortunately, I could not move the needle on those at all. But it really was a special night just celebrating in-house leadership across a few different sort of spectrums, ranging from community builder to, you know, most innovative legal team of the year. And it was very inspiring and also quite enlightening to hear the stories of these folks and what they're doing inside of their organizations and in the legal community at large.

47:35and yeah it gave me a lot of belief on you know where the profession is going because you know i don't know if it's sort of standard or par for the course across most organizations yet but there are some that are sort of out in the lead when it comes to innovation and they are truly moving the lead needle for their businesses and their teams and um yeah i think you know case in point like the the future of law is is very bright as far as i'm concerned and And if there's any law students listening, like I wouldn't be freaking out about AI. Like I think that there's going to be a great future of law for folks coming into the profession now that probably, you know, doesn't involve weeks of doc review, which I think would be really nice for folks coming up.

48:19Yeah, exactly. You know, they get to get involved in some of the stuff that perhaps many before them really didn't want to do so much of. We've touched on it, but I want to ask more about it because it's so important now, particularly as a business. It's just social media, because how are you utilizing social media platforms like LinkedIn to show what Good Lawyer is all about? LinkedIn is pretty much the only one that I would say that we're using on a regular basis. And, you know, fundamentally, I think one of the advantages that we have are, you know, a lot of organizations might have one voice, often the CEO who's sort of sharing their story and talking about what's going on in the company or the organization.

49:00and you know we've got a lot more voices than just mine i am certainly a very loud one on linkedin but uh you know we've got four five six people that are telling the story from you know different perspectives with different leans and um i'm not sure if you ever saw the the show i think it was on netflix um the playlist did you ever see the playlist i didn't but i feel like you gotta check got the playlist yeah it's it's it's the it's the spotify story oh okay nice um but it's the spotify story from six or seven different perspectives one of which is the first lawyer at spotify and every episode it sort of follows the path of a different character in that story and you know that was a discrete sort of seven episode series or something like that but i feel like you know good lawyer on social media is somewhat similar, just more ongoing in the sense that you keep seeing different parts of the good lawyer journey, the mission, you know, what we're up to from slightly different characters.

50:04And so, you know, it kind of gives you a more holistic perception or feeling about what we're, you know, what good lawyer is all about. That isn't just, you know, one crazy founder who, you know, took his ideas elsewhere. So I think that's what's really special about, you know, our brand journey, especially on LinkedIn and social media more broadly is you get to see the good lawyer world from a few different vantage points. Yeah. And that's what makes it so authentic. And, you know, I love the stories that are shared, you know, again, facts tell, but the stories really do sell and connect. And I think, you know, you've also done a recent post, which is, I really liked actually, it said it's wild because I think it's so authentic and true.

50:45It's wild how isolating this role can feel, even at the top so what's the meaning behind your post and how can individuals feel less isolated when managing a business um i mean i'm putting so many out i'm trying to remember that one in particular that that line um i think ultimately you know if you're the ceo or the the managing partner, whatever, if you're, if you're the, ultimately the buck stops with somebody. And I mean, you know, one of the problems inside, you know, traditional large law firms is too frequently, the buck actually doesn't stop with anybody. It's like a collective buck. And that's what makes decision-making so problematic or challenging.

51:32But inside of a corporation, the buck stops with somebody in the case of good lawyer, the buck stops with me. And, you know, what that means is sometimes you have to make really hard decisions and there's no one else in the room in the world that can make that decision for you. Ultimately, you have to make that call. And, you know, I think that's just part of of carrying the weight of of this seat. And, you know, if you want to build something remarkable, you have to take ownership and responsibility over those really critical decisions. And, you know, I think fundamentally being sort of the engine and the energy, the promoter and the, you know, perpetual optimist is my role as CEO, coupled with the fact that, you know, from time to time, I have to make really hard decisions and no one else can make those for me.

52:25And I think the way that I sort of manage that is having a very close relationship with my key execs. And, you know, very few decisions next to no decisions I make are made in isolation, even if I have to make the final judgment call. and then surrounding myself with other founders and advisors, you know, most often informally that I can bounce ideas off of and collect as many data points as I can before making a big decision. Because I think, you know, for me, I'm always yearning and, you know, listening to your podcast has been a great way for me to do this as well for expedited learning. And there's very few decisions that I have to make that are so different than a decision someone else has made before.

53:16So the more data points from experienced folks I can gather, whether it's a founder in fintech, whether it's an advisor who built and sold their$100 million company, or it's the folks on my team who in a lot of ways are smarter than me, collecting all of those data points, that is ultimately how I get the confidence. and then ultimately, you know, you got to pull the trigger and make those hard calls. And, and fortunately I've got the memory of a goldfish, so I can move past them pretty quickly. Thank you for being so, so open about that. And, you know, I remember a mentor said to me, Rob, grow, grow as you go.

53:54You know, ultimately we're always growing up as we go along the, along the journey. And, you know, that self-accountability, I talk about it all the time. My favorite quote, if it's meant to be, it's up to me. I maybe do have to make that tough decision. It's on me to do that. And just rephrasing that mindset as well, because typically, you know, you're in a privileged position. If you're running an organization, you're that leadership. I get to make that decision. I get to make that happen. And changing that sort of narrative, I think is a really great way for people framing things in terms of rather, I've got to do this today.

54:22It's like, I get to make this real big decision and sort of framing it as a real privilege. I found that's really helped me over the years. I've loved this conversation, brett in terms of sort of good lawyer and looking forwards it's quite hard we talked a lot about headlines before and things changing every five minutes but what do you think good lawyer will look like in the next five years what future plans do you have that you can share with us as of today i mean in five years we're gonna be um in a lot more jurisdictions um i might be hanging out a little more frequently with you and welcome anytime in London.

54:59Yeah. Um, and you know, we're going to be helping thousands of lawyers build intentional careers and hopefully supporting, you know, thousands of in-house legal teams far beyond just Canada and the U S. Um, I don't see any reason why our growth can't just keep compounding year after year. um you know we've already got some exciting news to share early new year with other folks that are joining the team that i think are going to help really help us move the needle and you know i think in five months as opposed to five years i hope to see you in in toronto at uh our next legendary yacht party because that for me is going to be you know the first iteration we've done three or four yacht parties over the year.

55:53I think just picture 500 people on a boat, but that's going to be the first iteration where it has sort of been fully consumed by this new ICP. So we've had lots of in-house lawyers on the boat in years past, but this will be the first year where it is a boat entirely full of, you know, peers, both on the supply side, the good lawyers in our network and the customers that we're serving. So I don't know what 500 in-house lawyers on a boat is going to do, but I really hope you can make it there. Maybe we'll do a live pod that day, my friend. Well, people who follow the show know early this year out in Dubai, we're on yachts with Dubai Arena filming podcasts.

56:38So we are very partial to recording, and that would be with absolute pleasure. And obviously, Cleo, who sponsored our show, we're huge fans of, have officers out there. We'd love to come and see that and tie that in with a trip next year. So maybe I suspect Jack will be on the boat. I would be stunned if he wasn't. There we go. So it could all come together, guys, maybe getting a bit of exclusive here on the show. Okay, Brett, we've talked obviously a lot about the future of law, but maybe just, again, just trying to get some of your predictions, wild predictions, wherever you want to take this.

57:07You know, we've talked about future of law and new ways to practice. What are some of the key disruptions you predict are going to transform legal services in the coming years? I mean, I think the new AI tools and it will be very interesting to see like sort of who wins that race, if it's the vertical specific or how far some of the foundational models go and start encroaching on to, you know, the areas that some of the vertical players are living in. Um, but I have no doubt we're gonna figure out how to, uh, maneuver and sort of finagle the AI tools. So they drive a tremendous amount of the, the rote sort of lowest level, highest volume tasks out of the hands of lawyers.

58:00Um, that doesn't scare me at all. In fact, when I think back to my first day in law school, which was maybe a few days before I bought the Good Lawyer domain in contract class, it was foundations. And I'll never forget this professor, Professor DeCoste. I did a post about this the other day, too. The three Ds of being a lawyer, duty, deadlines, and drudgery. And I was like, I'm pretty cool with duty, deadlines. I work well under pressure. But I'm like, drudgery. I'm like, I don't like the sound of drudgery. That's not why I want to be a lawyer. And I think that is the core piece that like AI is going to strip away.

58:41It's going to strip away a lot of this drudgery. A lot of this stuff that, you know, gets billed today won't get billed tomorrow because it's just going to be instantaneous. Much, you know, and it's funny. People always freak out about it. And I've heard, you know, Jack Newton talk about this as well. when Excel came out, all the accountants were losing their minds because they, you know, had been making all their money counting chips on the ledger for years and years. And Excel, you know, eliminated that. Yeah. I'm quite certain we have more accountants today than we did then. And I don't know if you've noticed, but this whole role called the CFO has emerged that is about as strategic in the company as you get beyond the CEO.

59:25And I view a future where the CLO takes their rightful place in that same sort of hierarchy where they're not reporting into a CFO, but they're adding unbelievable strategic value with that legal lens, but far beyond it because law school taught us the law. But I think first and foremost, it taught us to be really sharp, critical thinkers. And I don't know, last time I checked, it's harder to get into law school than it is to business school. So I feel very sort of bullish on where lawyers can take their careers in the future with inside large and small organizations. And the other piece, I think, for me is the business models are going to evolve and adapt.

1:00:14You know, the iBankers figured it out a long time ago. They've been taking points for a long time. Working, I would argue, maybe harder in a moment, but less hard over the duration of a year than, you know, their compatriots at the corporate law firms that are working on the same deals. and I know for a fact that the iBankers are making a lot more dough taking points and a little bit of risk than the corporate guy the corporate legal folks are making on paper in the deals so I think that you know people are very worried that losing billable hours will be harmful for folks inside the profession I completely disagree on that on that front I think selling time is always selling time should always be a backup to a less creative option we should always be striving for more creative ways to value and sell the services the value we provide as professionals and i think that value-based billing value-based billing um will become more and more prominent as the years go by.

1:01:27And, you know, you heard it here first. I think that in five, 10 years, there will be fewer big firms in Canada. We saw one of the biggest firms in the history of Canada explode. I almost went there to article Keenan Blakey and it was gone. There's a book about it. It was gone within a week or two after, you know, some internal grumblings and there was effectively a run on the bank And I would be stunned if that doesn't happen again in the next five to 10 years, because ultimately the traditional firms are a lot less sort of secure foundationally. I wouldn't describe it fully as a house of cards, but there are links that can be pulled out that can be catastrophic incredibly quickly.

1:02:18Like when I think about what a firm is, ultimately, it's a collection of very smart, hopefully, individuals and a brand that is a bit of an umbrella on top of it. And that's it. And I would encourage firms, you know, that are tuning in to think about ways to make their business and, you know, the folks inside of it stickier for the long term. And I think getting ahead of a lot of these waves, partnering with organizations that do things a little bit differently is going to be imperative. And we'll probably see that from the leaders, because I also think there will be big firms in five to 10 years.

1:02:51I just think that there'll be more dominant and fewer in number. Yeah. And again, I love that you talked about value based pricing. We've had a few people on the show really double down on that. Sean Jardine, I think, gives a great analogy of this. He was one of the guests we've had on who wrote books on this. Imagine you've got two fake. Would you rather pay more to get the relief quicker or would you rather pay less and wait longer and stay in pain? It's the same service. It's how it's viewed. It's how it's presented. It's about a menu of options. It's how you position things. It's how you really understand and meet your clients where they're at.

1:03:23And if you can position things cleverly, I think you'll do super, super well. This has been an absolute master. My final note on that, and then I'll show you that with my friend, is what value-based pricing and just the move in that direction, what it requires. and what our profession has historically been so unreasonably adverse to is taking some risk. Yeah. That's what it requires. You are the expert. You know, even when the first version of GoodLawyer, we started the fixed fee legal services market, and, you know, lawyers told me, there's no way I could fix fee a job. It all depends. I could never do it.

1:04:02And then, you know, I say, well, would you do a shareholder's agreement for$1 ,500? bucks and they're like absolutely i'm like we just did it you just took on a little risk as the service provider the expert you gave the the client price certainty because they're not the expert you now have an incentive to drive that value more efficiently everybody wins so i think you know if there was one takeaway the future of law requires lawyers requires our profession to own a little more risk. And I think that's going to be good for everybody. Yeah. And again, it's so true. And I talk a lot about this because things are going to change.

1:04:42If nothing changes, nothing changes. And I think I may even said this in one of the years as one of the talks for you at the Future of Law Summit, the cost of inaction, like not taking action on something and maybe taking risk now could be exponentially successful for you in the future. Whereas if you stay here and you're not sure, then actually you probably could actually go the other way to your point that there may be some big firms, but maybe even one of those firms that may not be around in the future. Love it. Okay. One final piece of advice, Brett, what would you say to those interested in learning more about a career in-house within in-house legal team, given where we are today?

1:05:16Get on LinkedIn, start reaching out, take a little risk, take a chance, get outside of your comfort zone, slide into my DMs and say hello. and you know i'm always happy to chat with folks um or point them in the right direction so i would say you know get out of your comfort zone take a chance and reach out to the people who inspire you or who you want to learn from because you know if you're not going to reach out to them no action leads to no change yeah yeah the answer is always no if you don't ask right and i think yours are saying like go ahead and shoot your shot you know i say all the time shot baby yeah shoot your shot But you're one contact away, potentially away from changing your life.

1:05:58That could be an employer. It could be going to work for Good Lawyer. It could be getting connected through someone in Brett's network. It could be whatever. It could be a mentor. It could be a business partner. Could be anything. Loved it. Brett, if our listeners, which I'm sure they do, want to learn more about you or indeed follow the Good Lawyer journey, where can they go? Feel free to share any websites. Any social media handles will also include them in this very special episode for you too. Yeah, I mean, you can, if you want to check out the summit recording, just go to summit.goodlawyer.ca.

1:06:25if you're an in-house lawyer that's interested in you know building an intentional career fractional or otherwise check us out at goodlawyer.ca and you know for anybody that just wants to have a conversation you can find me uh on linkedin brett colvin simple as that well brett thank you so so much for today it's been an absolute blast having you on the uh legally speaking podcast finally sponsored by cleo uh wishing you lots of continued success with building out Good Lawyer and indeed all your future pursuits. But for now, from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week's episode.

1:06:57If you like the content here, why not check out our world-leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There's a link to join our community there. Over and out.