Twenty-Five Dollars and an Eleven-Year Leap with Dan Berkon at Culmen International

0:00Welcome to the Make Big Happen podcast. I'm Mark Moses. And here's something most people don't realize about national security. The people keeping this country safe aren't all in uniform. Behind the scenes, there are private companies doing some real critical work. Stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction, securing borders in countries, well, some most people have never heard of. supporting the U.S. government in over 150 countries. My guest today runs one of those companies. Dan Burkhan is the founder and CEO of Coleman International. Over 450 employees, an 11-time Ming 5000 honoree operating on six continents.

0:52But that's not how this story started. Dan joined my first company, Student Painters, when he was 18 years old. Not because he wanted a summer job, but because he wanted to learn how to run a business. I've known Dan for 37 years. I'm on his board, and I've coached him for over a decade. One of the most important leadership principles I teach is nice guy is not a profession. And that came directly from one of the coaching sessions Dan and I had several years ago during one of the hardest moments of his career. Today, we're going to talk about what it really takes to scale in one of the toughest markets in the world and the leadership breakthroughs that made it possible.

1:41Dan, welcome to the Make Big Happen podcast. Thanks so much, Mark. I'm really glad to be here with you. Dan, I appreciate our very longtime friendship. I appreciate who you are, and I really appreciate what you've built. Absolutely amazing. I even went to one of those countries most people never heard of, Azerbaijan, recently at your recommendation, and I was absolutely blown away by how cool that really was. It was absolutely amazing, and I had never heard of it before I met you. So glad to hear that and glad you had a great experience there, as have I. Wonderful country. So you joined Student Painters, Dan, at 18.

2:28You weren't looking for a summer job. I think you were, I don't know where I got Russian studies that rolls back into my mind at the moment. But you wanted to learn to be an entrepreneur. What pulled you towards that when you're 18 years old? Yeah. Well, I think two things. One is I came from a family of entrepreneurs. My dad was a small business owner, and I had the chance as I was a kid to work in my dad's business and see what the art of the possible was as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, and really wanted to try to have something like that for myself someday. And I think the other guiding driver at the time was just wanting to have some control over my financial future.

3:19My father had actually lost that business a couple of months before I started college. And so we lost our home as well as the business. And so I was on my own at 17 and didn't have a way to pay for college and didn't have a way to secure my own future. And I had seen how having a business and being a business owner gives you opportunities that you can't have when you just have a job. I needed some way to separate my income from the number of hours of the day that there were for me to work. And so I thought put myself through school, learn from what I learned from my dad and get some training and entrepreneurship as well might help me do that.

4:02You know, Dan, it's really interesting. You mentioned that I interviewed Omani Carson, formerly known as Ron Carson, recently. His dad, too, went bankrupt when he was 17. And my dad also went bankrupt when I was 17. So I guess the three of us figured out how to we had to figure it out. what it was meant to be, it was up to us, I guess, at that time, right? Absolutely. Yep, indeed. What was the biggest learning you had, Dan, during your time at Student Painters? You're 18, you're an entrepreneur. What was the biggest learning for you back then? Boy, you know, I think one of the things I found most rewarding that I still love about being an entrepreneur today is seeing the leaders in my organization really rising to the occasion and doing even more than they thought they were capable of.

5:06And so the way that we organized back then is we set up crews and we had to have leaders of those crews or foremen. And I drew from my small network at the time of friends, my brother was one, and giving them the opportunity to lead, supporting them, mentoring them, allowed them, I think, to achieve more than they thought possible and certainly allowed me to achieve more than I thought possible. And they all went on to have great careers themselves. And I think that that gave them a view of what they were capable of. And it certainly taught me that as friending yourself with great people is a real key to success.

5:45You were quite successful as one of our student painter managers back then. And then you got promoted to become a district manager the next year. You're 19 years old. Now you're leading a bunch of guys or inspiring other guys and gals that were 18, 19, 20. What did that teach you about leadership when you were trying to inspire or teach others how to do something as hard as that was at that time? Yeah. It was really fascinating and bittersweet because I loved the customer interface. One of the things I liked about being a branch manager is having to see those customers every day doing solution-oriented selling.

6:34And most importantly, the things I think back on most finally is the problem solving that we had to do when the inevitable problems came up. And then moving into a district manager role, less of that customer interface, but more about mentoring these managers now that we're facing those same issues and challenges themselves. And of course, a lot of different styles. And I think what I learned from it the most is that what works in supporting and mentoring and leading one manager may not necessarily be what's effective for another manager and having to adapt my leadership style and the way that I mentor to manage them to be most effective for the kind of learners they were, how they were motivated, and how I could be most effective as a leader in helping them achieve their goals.

7:24That's pretty cool at 19 that you did that because I know you've dealt with all kinds of different leadership challenges along the way and making every effort to bring out the best in the people that you work with. And like you said, people are different and they're not all motivated in the same way. So before you started Coleman International, what were you doing before that and what caused you to start Coleman? Yeah, well, as you mentioned, when I was in college, I was an international relations major. And so I've always been interested in international security, really thought I would spend my career in the federal government because that's who I thought was primarily responsible for managing these challenging international security issues the U.S.

8:12faces. And so as I was coming out of school, I had the chance to intern in the International Trade Administration where I was helping companies that were interested in going into this newly opened Eastern Europe, helping them navigate the markets and the legal issues and working with the embassies in those countries to open up opportunities for American companies in East Europe. And then I was hired from there by a government contractor. I really didn't know what a government contractor was at the time. And in D.C., here where I live now, every kid's parent works for the government or a government contractor, it's a known industry.

8:52But out in San Diego, that really wasn't touch a thing. But this company that hired me wanted to leverage my experience in Russia and a little bit of Russian language capability that I had for a project that they couldn't tell me about until I got a security clearance. So they hired me sight unseen over the phone. And I agreed to take the job without any knowledge of what I was actually going to be and moved across country to settle here in D.C. to take this job. And at the time, this company was trying to help the Navy learn how to defend against foreign cruise missile threats. And so they wanted me to spend the early 90s traipsing around Russian cruise missile factories, learning all about how the Russians had built their cruise missiles and what countries they'd sold them to, what ships they put them on, and then to put together these government-to-government programs to bring over these real-world threats to test against.

9:47And so that was my first exposure into how companies were involved in national security and helping the U.S. to stay safe. And while I was working that program, this program of weapons of mass destruction nonproliferation came about called the Cooperative Threat Reduction Program, authored by Senators Sam Nunn and Richard Lugar. And it was to help the nuclear inheritor states of the former Soviet Union to comply with the Soviet Union's START treaty, Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty obligations, and reduction of their nuclear armed forces. And so I was able to leverage the work that I had been doing there into this nonproliferation program and start visiting these factories that made these intercontinental ballistic missiles, learn how they were built, what they were comprised of, and help to structure our approach for dismantling those former Soviet ICBMs.

10:42And so I spent 11 years at that company working these very interesting international security programs, nonproliferation programs. I became ultimately an officer in that company, became the chief operating officer and executive vice president, and then realized that I wanted to do things a little bit differently. I had learned a lot being at that company and had been afforded a lot of opportunities by the founder. But he was about 30 years my senior. And we just had a little bit different vision, a little bit different values about how we wanted to do things. And I got to the point where I felt like if I wanted to do things the way I thought they should be done, I needed to put my money where my mouth was and start my own company.

11:31Because as the founder, he deserved to run that company the way he saw fit. And so my wife was gracious enough to let me quit my job with all of$25 in the bank. And we amassed enough credit cards while I still had a paycheck that we thought we could get through. And so I resigned my position there, gave all my stock back for free and just promised my former partner that I wasn't going to do anything to hurt his company and steal work from them. And I started Coleman to still pursue meaningful missions in international security, but do things a little bit differently. So for people that don't know who Coleman is and what it actually does, tell us as best as you can without sanitizing it, what does Coleman do?

12:26Yeah. So, you know, we help to make the world a safer place. That's what gets us to jump out of bed in the morning and attracts the kind of people that we want in our company to our company. And we do that by implementing government programs both here in the U.S. and internationally. In some cases, that means that we are providing subject matter experts embedded in these government agencies that are performing research. They're advising or assisting government officials. In other cases, we're actually providing equipment, facilities, training around the world to foreign partner countries that are paid for.

13:05It's paid for by the U.S. because it has both a national security benefit to the U.S. as well as to our foreign partner. And this could be to do things such as detecting and stopping the spread of Ebola in a place like the Democratic Republic of Congo to detecting and interdicting the smuggling of nuclear materials in places like you mentioned at the top of the show in Azerbaijan. And so we're there in the field internationally implementing these programs that our customers in the U.S. government are trying to accomplish. And then finally, we develop and deploy technology solutions that our customers can use to gain global insights, analyze data and make informed decisions.

13:48It's funny you mentioned the DRC, Democratic Republic of Congo. I was doing this helicopter safari last year and I was flying from Tanzania over to Uganda. And at one point, my phone said, welcome to the DRC, the Democratic Republic of Congo. And I'm going, how cool is this? Now I'm in a new country. And I asked the helicopter pilot, I said, hey, can we land for like, let's just land for 30 minutes. Maybe we'll have a beer and then hop back on and head on to Uganda. And he says, well, how long do you want to stay? And I said, maybe just an hour. he says if I put this chopper on the ground you might stay here at least two years maybe longer um there's all kinds of nonsense going on down there that you and me don't want to be a part of we're not landing the chopper and is that right so you probably know more about what was going on there than uh um than I do or he did but uh he wasn't putting the chopper down yeah well I mean you always have to go with there's advice depending on where you were in the country That might have been sage advice.

15:04I'll say that the Congolese are great people to work with. We have a really wonderful team at Coleman that leads this work in the Congo, and it's actually work that's sponsored by the CDC. And we have some really wonderful partners in the Congolese government that is really dedicated to trying to stop the spread of really dangerous diseases like Ebola. And some of the challenges are that when we have outbreaks in a place like Congo where they don't have the ability to do a disease surveillance and to do sampling of blood to determine if there's an infection, it's not until it's spread so far it's reached the place like the capital of Kinshasa, they realize there's a problem.

15:48And by that time, they have an epidemic that could become a pandemic. And so some of the work that our team has been doing there is helping to build laboratories deeper into the country that can do disease surveillance, that can do blood testing, that can help to diagnose these outbreaks earlier, and then working in partnership with the government in the Congo to be able to respond to these outbreaks more quickly and keep them from becoming an epidemic or a pandemic. And so we've had a wonderful experience working there. Again, our team here at Coleman that works there is just fantastic. And our partners that we've had in the government of Congo have been great to work with.

16:27A lot of challenges in that country as there are in many countries, but also a lot of real bright spots and some great partnerships there. What a responsibility you have, Dan. And I think to most people, they would think it's our government that keeps us safe. How many people are there, how many companies are there like yours that do this kind of work around the world? And is it, I guess, what I want to say is how much of it's being done by the government versus contractors like you? You know, it's a big industry. Government contracting certainly is a big industry in the international relations, international security space that we work in.

17:17Certainly, it's a smaller playing field, but there's still a lot of very talented companies that work in this space in addition to Coleman. And the government, I think, in our experience has been the ones that they set the policy, they determine the budgets, and they manage this work. And they're ultimately responsible and accountable for accomplishing these objectives. and they have various resources at their disposal to accomplish these objectives. Some of those resources are uniformed personnel or other government agencies or officials to do the work. And some of those resources are contracting companies like us that they can leverage to go out and do a specific project to implement the program that they've approved and under their oversight.

18:04But they're able to use contractors like us. We then in turn might subcontract with local companies in the countries where we're working as well in order to ensure that it really is a collaborative effort. And so we're one of the tools in the government's toolkit of how they implement their policies and accomplish their objectives. And it's a very rewarding industry to be a part of. And I think the agencies that we really enjoy supporting the most are those that really embrace their government contractors as partners in this program and recognize what we bring and what we don't bring and use us the right way.

18:47You mentioned security clearance earlier. Do you and members of your team need to have these kind of clearances? In some cases. And so it depends on the agencies that are being supported. But I think government contractors that are supporting certain agencies and certain programs do require security clearances. And there's certainly a lot of government contracting work that doesn't require security clearance. And it really just depends upon the specific agencies and programs that you're supporting. But it's not uncommon for government contractors to need security clearances. So we started working together at once you got Coleman going and you were at around 20 million or so in revenue.

19:34I think that was about 11 years ago. And you told me when I asked you, what's the dream? And you said, man, 100 million would be amazing. And today you're way past that. Back then, what was holding you back? Was it strategy, people, structure? Was it you? What was holding you back back then? It was really probably all of the above. I think we were at that time at the inflection point of having to move from being an entrepreneurially led company to a professionally led company. And that meant bringing in an executive team, implementing new systems, essentially breaking the cycle of Dan having to lead everything and moving into a cycle of Dan leading leaders who both individually and collectively could accomplish much more than I could on my own.

20:33And, you know, that was, I think, where we were in trying to get to the next level. What do you think enabled you to have, like, you really did, you really grew. What is it about the people that you worked with and the type of people that you put on your team that enabled such growth? And what did that teach you about how you led as a leader? Yeah, it really is about the people that I was able to bring onto the team that helped us to achieve what we've achieved to date. And, hey, we're still a work in progress. We have a lot of work ahead of us still to do. We've by no means declared victory and said this is a success.

21:21We are continuing to improve and do better and grow further. But we've gotten to where we are today, specifically because of the people. And it became really clear to me that it wasn't just that you needed or that I needed one or two great leaders in the company that could drive progress. It was having great people throughout the organization and really trying to foster this culture of responsibility and accountability and excellence that allowed us to get to where we are. And it starts even as early as our recruiting program, the talent acquisition team that we have responsible for not only finding good people, but if we want to instill our company culture in our employees, the very first time they feel that, they hear that, is from our talent acquisition team when they're first contacted about a position.

22:20And so having a great talent acquisition team became a really critical part of it. Actually started out that my mother led our first talent acquisition team. She had run a recruiting company for many years, a national recruiting company in the defense sector. And I brought her into stand-up hours because there's nobody better to say if somebody is the right person to work for your company than your mom. And so she really got that off to a great start. Today, it's led by a whole different team, and they are really tremendous at finding the right people. And when people join the company, they already feel like they know what our culture is.

22:58They're excited to be here. And then that moves to the human resources team. If we can't take great care of our employees, they simply are not going to stay. And this is a competitive industry, and they have a lot of opportunities. and our HR team is just superb at making sure our employees know that they're being well cared for. I had an HR person years ago that when I asked them what I thought their job was, they said, well, my job's to protect the company from its employees. I thought, oh my goodness, how did you ever become a part of this organization? They came to us through an acquisition.

23:36I said, no, that's not what your job is. Your job is to help us to take the best possible care of these employees so they want to be here and do great work. And then, of course, it's the employees that are on the front lines doing the work with our customers, helping them to accomplish their missions that really make us who we are. And just having exceptional people there, the managers that support them and mentor them. And then ultimately the back office that we have here and finance and accounting, quality contracts, security, all the people to ensure that as a government contractor spending taxpayer money, that we're compliant, we're doing things the right way, legally, ethically.

24:18And that when we have great people across the organization, not just one or two bright spots, that's when we're really firing on all cylinders. And that's what we were able to achieve. You know, we've in my work, we talk a lot about a tough topic, that people to get a business from A to B are often not the same people to get it from B to C and C to D and so on. So who you might need in the startup phase might be different than 15 or 20 million. It might be different at 50 and then might be different at 150. What has been your experience in your learning about that? Yeah, I think we've experienced the same thing.

25:05But I think we've also found that the people who may not necessarily have been particularly shakers and movers at one phase in our evolution turned out to be the great leaders of tomorrow when we got to a new phase. And it also created opportunities for people to step up and emerge as impactful leaders in the organization. The people that weren't really comfortable with the growth and the expansion of our work generally self-selected and ended up moving on to roles that they felt more comfortable in, in some cases internally and in some cases externally. But I think what I found most exciting is the people that stepped up to help us lead the new phase and the next evolution.

25:56You know, our business development team is led by a gentleman that started in this company as just kind of a business development analyst proposal manager for us. And now leads a really meaningful business development team who I think is second to none this team. And they recognize that their job is to ensure that we're bringing in enough work to keep our awesome employees employed for the long term, right? To create the job security for them, to bring in meaningful work that people want to stay around and execute. And, you know, Joff stepped up as our company was growing and said, hey, you know what?

26:35I know we need a new leader for this organization, and I'd like to give it a try. And so what I found most exciting through our growth were those people that stepped up to take on new roles. We also were able to bring in people through acquisitions, first and foremost, and through executive recruiting to augment the team as we grew. And I think we've really benefited from that talent that's come in through acquisitions to help build out our leadership team as well. Speaking of acquisitions, Dan, you've done a great job growing through a combination of both organic and acquisitions, and you've truly built a really strong leadership team.

27:18leadership team. What changed in you as a leader that made that kind of scale impossible? Because you're buying companies and you're integrating new leaders into your own team. Not easy stuff to do. Yeah. No, thanks. I would say it was really a process of continuous learning. I talked about when I started Coleman, I wanted to do things differently. And so I quit my job and I started Coleman, if I'd been more mature and if I'd known more, I probably just would have bought my old boss out and taken the company from there, but I didn't know any better. And so I've benefited from continuous learning through first kind of peer organizations like EO and YPO, organizations that frankly, Mark, you're the one that got me interested and into those organizations to begin with.

28:11And they've been super impactful to learn from other peer CEOs about what's worked for them, what hasn't worked for them. Through coaching, you coached me for a long time and I've worked with your company now for a long time. I've learned a ton as far as best practices, as far as what the art of the possible is that I hadn't considered before. And so I've really tried to invest in my own learning so that I can grow and be a better leader in this company. I'll say I've learned from the executives that I've brought into the company and the board that we've established who all have experiences and capabilities beyond my own that have helped me to navigate those waters.

28:55And how many acquisitions have you done so far? We've done seven. Seven acquisitions. Yeah, I was just saying, first one was in 2011. It was my old company, actually. So later, we ended up acquiring my old company. And then since 2018, we've done six. Impressive. As you've acquired these companies, integration is hard. And what advice would you give others that are buying another company? Because a lot of those fail. You haven't had one fail. What advice would you give others that are attempting that strategy? Well, we've certainly made plenty of mistakes along the way that we've learned from.

29:44I think we start now thinking about integration right at the outset, and it really shapes the kind of companies that we're interested in now, the kind of acquisitions we do. I think when we acquire a company where we really share values, we share outlooks and vision, those become really easy integrations because it's not a real sea change for the employees to adapt to. And that includes both my current employees and the impact on them of bringing in a new company and the impact on the employees of the company that we're acquiring. So the more closely aligned that our values and principles are, the better the integration has gone.

30:29We acquired a company called Visnova back in 2023. And Carlos Rivera, John Fallon, who were the owners of that company, they really had built a wonderful company. We were super well aligned in our values and our principles. And that integration, I think, was probably one of the best we've been able to achieve yet because it just, it really fit like a glove. They became part of our executive leadership team and they really led the integration from that side as well in terms of helping their employees be excited, not scared to feel good about this opportunity. And so I think starting about thinking about the companies that we're acquiring from an integration lens and how effective are we going to be able to be at integrating this company, that starts much earlier in the process than we thought about when we first started doing acquisitions, where we didn't think about integration until after the deal closed.

31:27How many companies have you bought outside the United States? We haven't bought any companies outside the U.S. per se, but we have bought companies who had operations and offices and subsidiaries outside of the U.S. So all the companies that we've acquired have been U.S. companies, but they've had some significant presence elsewhere. An acquisition we recently completed with Premise, had a big operation in the UK. A company that we acquired last year, TMC, had their center of gravity in the country of Georgia. And when we acquired Visnova, they had a big operation in places like Peru, Egypt, Southeast Asia.

32:08So a lot of the companies that we've acquired have helped us to expand globally, but they haven't been necessarily foreign companies. Yeah, interesting. You also sent me to Georgia to go have a little visit over there and I met uh one of the guys on your team over there who took us out uh George is known for amazing wine and uh your guy took us out and we said we're gonna have the absolute best wine and the wine shows up in its orange and uh what he called it amber and uh and it was like oh my god this is the best wine I'd never even heard of an orange or amber wine but what struck me as we were drinking some wine with him was how you've integrated your into those folks over there.

32:58How hard is it and how do you do that really spread the amazing culture of Coleman when you got people working all over the world? You mentioned the DRC earlier. We talked about Azerbaijan. We talked just now about Georgia. How do you do that? Very tough, I would think. I would say that it starts with, again, acquiring a company that's got a great culture. You know, TMC was the company that had this operation in Georgia. They were a great company. They had a good culture. And so that made it easy. I'll also say that, you know, I personally went out there when we acquired this company and I spent time with that team in Georgia to really help them understand what Coleman was all about and what our vision was to have them as a part of the Coleman family now.

33:48And then other folks on my leadership team have gone out there as well to be able to meet with them and spend time. And so especially when people are remote like that, I think having that in-person touch to be able to really sit down and share vision and values with our new members of the Coleman family becomes really important. And so I'm grateful that my team believes in that as well and spends time doing that. But we were fortunate to acquire great companies and get really good people like Jorgi and his team in that made that very easy to do. Years ago, you had someone in a key role on your team.

34:30They were loyal. They were a good person, nice person, but not performing at the level you needed. You had trouble pulling the trigger. And at that moment when you and I were talking, it led me to, you and I got into a conversation over this. Dan, nice guy is not a profession. What happened? What was that all about? Yeah. Yeah, that was a situation where we had brought in a leader into the company that had great capability, great track record, and was going to be filling a really critical role for us. and they just weren't achieving the results that we needed from them. And it wasn't for lack of trying or their commitment.

35:18And again, not even their capability. They had good experience in the past. It just wasn't the right fit. And it's a lot easier if, you know, somebody's terrible at their job or they don't care, they're a poor performer or they've got a bad attitude. Those kinds of decisions are really easy. But when somebody is trying their damnedest and they they've loyal and committed, just not achieving the results. For me, that's always been a harder decision. And, you know, I look at what could I have done better to help this person be successful? What am I not doing that I need to do to help this person succeed?

35:55And and so, you know, that that conversation ultimately led, you know, me to make a decision to remove that individual from that role. And in the end, we kept them on the bus in a different role where they were far more successful. And then we were able to backfill them in that role where they weren't as effective because, you know, I think we determined they were the good person to have on the bus, but they weren't in the right seat. And that allowed us to make that change and put the right person in that seat. And it made a huge difference. How long did you have to wait before or how long did you wait before making that change?

36:34Uh, too long, probably, uh, you know, probably six months to a year, uh, that I probably could have made that decision earlier. What did you learn about yourself as a result of that? I'm sorry, say again, what did, what did you learn about yourself as, uh, in that six or 12 month period where you waited? Um, what did you learn and what advice might you give others on that? Yeah. You know, I think two things. One is that when I noticed it, it was clear that everybody else noticed it as well. Right. So not making a change timely impacted the others in the company that knew that this wasn't working.

37:19Right. And so it wasn't good for morale. It wasn't motivating for those people that were performing and accomplishing results. And so that was a problem. It was also clear to the individual. They knew it wasn't working and they knew that they weren't achieving the results that were intended. and they felt like they were hanging out of the sword of Damocles, waiting for the hair to break and the sword to drop. And that's not a fun existence either. So nobody benefited by me dragging out that decision, right? And I found that once we made that change, everybody was a lot happier. Not only did we get then the intended results by making that move, but everybody felt better about the right decision having been made.

38:10And ultimately, I think I found that if we're making decisions consistently and ethically and for the right reasons, generally they turn out to be the right decision, even though there might be a personal impact that I'm dreading as a result of the decision. Dan, some years back, you brought in a private equity partner, Hale Capital. What made you decide that the time was right in Coleman's journey for that? And what has the partnership actually brought to the company? Yeah, you're right, Mark. I did. Back in December 2019, we brought in Hale Capital Partners. And at that time, we were really embarking on a significant growth trajectory.

38:54We had completed two acquisitions within the 12 months before that, and we had won a couple of meaningfully sized contracts that were going to require a significant amount of capital in order for us to unramp. And really the traditional banking solutions that we had been using, lines of credit and small business loans, just weren't adequate to help us execute on these new opportunities. And the last thing we wanted to do was fail due to lack of resources. but we weren't ready to cede control. And what I understood about most private equity companies is that they take the control position and then really they own the company and set the direction and we weren't looking for that.

39:36And I discovered that there was this pool of minority private equity investors that want to make an impact, bring capital, but don't need to take a control position. So we started interviewing several minority private equity companies, met with some very good ones. We were fortunate to receive a few very good offers, but we ultimately selected Hale Capital because we believed they really shared our vision and values. They weren't going to try to make us into something that we weren't. They were interested in helping us to build a great company the way that we wanted to do it. And I felt really good about that.

40:11And I would say that we're now five years into that relationship and we hit the jackpot with Hale Capital. They They have been a fierce partner since the day that we closed. And, you know, frankly, starting in the month leading up to the close, they stepped into a debt facility where the non-bank lender couldn't continue to serve as a bridge until we closed with them. And so they not only brought then capital, they brought some great minds onto our board of directors, best practices for performance measurement, and really great expertise around acquisitions. as we then subsequently did more acquisitions.

40:50So we've been very grateful to have them on the team. And I'll say just, gosh, 12 weeks after we closed, COVID hit and the world changed dramatically. And they stayed by our sides through all of the ups and downs from COVID, government shutdowns, contracts wins, contracts losses, and several additional acquisitions. They've really been a great partner. And I'm super appreciative of brought them into the team. Dan, I've sat on your board for several years, and I was part of when you brought Hale on, and you did hit the jackpot. Marty Hale is a great guy and has been very supportive of you in really allowing your vision and your leadership in regards to what you really want to achieve.

41:44He's supportive, helpful. He and his team are very smart. And he hasn't gotten in your way. Now, that's not the case for many. What did you do right about selecting hell that others could learn from? Because many don't get this right. Yeah. And I agree with all of what you said. And he has been. And I'll say that he does. He challenges me. He pushes my way of thinking. But and that's just made me stronger. It hasn't been in a way where he has dictated something that I didn't want to do. But he's always caused me to open the aperture and start looking at things from different perspectives, which above and beyond the capital that he and his company brought have been really valuable for us.

42:37I would say for others looking to go down the path of private equity. First, just be really clear with what you want out of a private equity partnership. I tried to be really transparent as I was interviewing PEs about what I wanted, what I didn't want. I was really transparent about the bad impression I had of the PE community and from the rumors that I had heard and wanting to avoid some things that I was concerned about. And also being transparent about our company. I think a lot of people might approach PEs trying to really make the company look as flawless as possible. And I understand that.

43:18But I think being honest about, hey, what's working really well here? What's not working really well here? Where do we still have work to do? And where do we need help? I think that was really important in being able to attract the right PE for our situation. And I'd say just like any other major decision, whether it's choosing a college or choosing a spouse or buying a house, you meet with several of these private equity companies because then you'll recognize the right one when you meet them. And if you if you keep a really narrow field of companies you're talking to, you just might not recognize the differences between them, but they become starkly clear when you meet with a lot of them.

44:00And so we found that was really critical for us in picking the right one. And Hale Capital has been terrific for us. You know what else, Stan? What I like about Hale and his, I'll call him his buddy, Sterling, who I also sit on the board with. They deeply care about you. They also have tremendous knowledge of your space, which has been like, you know, your space, but having that additive resource available to you as a board member of yours has felt significant. So congratulations on that. Let's move to the board. What is having a board and having what's the positive and negative of of having a board?

44:51I know you prepared deeply for our board meetings and you got a high expectation coming from your PE partner who who can grill you on some of the numbers and stuff like that. What would you say is the pros and cons of having a board? Yeah, well, we did not have a board, not a not a fiduciary board of directors until we brought in a private equity partner. And that new relationship necessitated us putting the board into place. And to be honest, at the outset, it was very uncomfortable for me having an entrepreneur who, you know, led this company, built it from the ground up, was the final arbiter of all decisions.

45:32And I found having to put a board into place to be a really difficult thing for me to do. And then, frankly, one of my YPO forum mates said, listen, you need to think differently about having a board of directors. This is a pool of some of the best minds in your space that are all there to help you be successful. Embrace them like that. Utilize them like that. And you're going to find that your board is a superpower, not a straitjacket. And so I really that change in perspective shifted the way I started thinking about how to work with a board. And it really has been that. And I think having board members that are coming in from different backgrounds has been helpful, too.

46:20You know, we have the private equity board members who have things that they're concerned about, the experiences that they bring. You know, yourself, who brings in a very different way for us to think because you're not necessarily constrained by how government contractors think and operate because you have a much broader aperture of how successful companies operate. And that's really valuable. And then, of course, Dave Gibran, who's on our board and is a fellow YPO and friend that had one of the best success stories of building a company and from the ground up as an entrepreneur, has been really valuable as well.

47:01So I'd say that that mix of perspectives has been really helpful. There's no sycophants on the board. Everybody is there looking out for our company's best interests and trying to help me achieve my vision, but also, you know, challenging my way of thinking and in a way that's respectful and not combative, a good nature, but really stretches my thinking and takes me out of my comfort zone, which I find to be very valuable. And so from that standpoint, I think we try to come to the board with issues that are strategic in nature to get the direction and the inputs and the perspectives that we can really benefit from.

47:44And to realize that these board members, they have very limited time and we want to make the best use of that time for the best outcome for our company. So it's been a growing process, but one that in the end, we're a lot better off with the board than we were before we had one. Here's a tough topic. So you're CFO today, CFO and now president. He's a rock star. And before he came on board, I'll say the role of where the CFO played was not what it is today. What did you learn about the power of really knowing your numbers and having a world-class CFO? Is this something many of our clients deal with?

48:41They got a person in a really important position, and they've not grown with the position. Yeah, no, that was really a big pain point for us. We've had some wonderful CFOs over the years. And at the point where we brought in the private equity partner and we're creating this board, we had a couple of interim CFOs that were coming through. And it was really hard for us to make informed, timely decisions if we didn't have accurate, timely data to help inform those decisions and data that was necessary for us to be able to act on. And when I brought in Myron Thomas, Myron spent a career as a CEO himself and a CFO.

49:30So he brings in the perspective of an executive leader that I think made him really effective in that role for us as CFO. And I first approached Myron to be on my board when I was forming a board. And he said, I'd be happy to help, but to be honest, I'd rather be on your executive team. And I thought, wow, I didn't think I'd be able to get someone as talented as Myron on the executive team. And he was CEO at another meaningful organization here in town. And so he came on in that role of CFO and then later took on the role also as president. And that's been so critical for a couple of reasons. One is I trust him completely.

50:10He's somebody that we were in YPO together, known each other for years, and I really, really trust him. But he's also one of the most capable people that I've ever run across in terms of his formal training and education, his corporate experience, and his life experience is really, really valuable. And I would say, I've got three people on my executive team that have all been CEOs in the past themselves. And that makes my job a lot easier when I've got a leadership team of people that know exactly what the alligators of the boat are, the issues that I'm dealing with, and being able to perform their roles in a way that makes it a lot easier for me to be effective at my job.

50:53Dan, let's call it what it is. Having a bunch of former CEOs on your leadership team, that can't be easy because they're used to making decisions and used to doing it their own way. How have you been able to get them all to work together as a team where at the end of the day, you're the CEO and it's your company? How does everybody play well in the sandbox with all those strong leaders on your team? Yeah. Hey, it was a process, right? We went through all of those phases of team building that you hear about, the forming and the storming and the norming. We certainly experienced all of those. And but I think that it really comes down to everybody has a tremendous amount of respect for each other and what they bring and what their roles are in this company.

51:46And they all take pride in what we've accomplished and their part in that. And I think we work really well together. And where I take the most, you know, gratitude is when I see them working together without it being something that I've asked for or directed or, you know, instituted. But they're going to each other, using one another as resources, collaborating effectively together. You know, that's where I realize that they've really gelled as a leadership team. And I feel like we've got a terrific executive leadership team. And we're better off because they bring experiences that are different from one another, different from mine.

52:33And they've all been in those leadership positions. And to be honest with you, if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, I would not worry that this company would stay strong and healthy and thriving because we have a great leadership team. And this is not the Dan Burkhan show. So, you know, this is a company that's run by a really a great ELT. Yeah, that's the point, right? You went from it being the Dan Burkhan show to now you got a professional leadership team, a professional board that has your back and has the company's back and is there for the mission that the company is on. Yeah, exactly right. So we've worked together for over a decade, and it's been an awesome honor and privilege for me to get to be by you through some of the most difficult decisions and moments in the Coleman journey.

53:32The PE transaction, acquisitions, some hard leadership decisions. So looking back, what did that actually mean to you and what was the most meaningful part? Yeah. So, you know, when you started this coaching company, you might recall that I referred you to several friends that were CEOs, CEOs that were friends of mine before I started working with you directly. And, you know, I remember that when I worked for you at Student Painters, you were one of the most challenging, you know, leaders I'd ever worked for. You demanded the best out of everybody and you got the best out of everybody. And when you started coaching a company, I knew that you were what every CEO needs.

54:19I just wasn't sure if I was ready to commit to get that same kind of help myself. So it was really a couple of years in that I'm like, you know what? I really am serious about wanting to get the best out of this company and achieve the most. And if I'm not working with Mark myself, then what am I doing? And so, you know, I asked if you would come and help and be my coach. And it really has been a terrific experience. And over the years, you were my coach. And now I work with one of your other coaches, Rafe. And for me, I think just part of that continuous learning, I believe that, you know, great leaders are continuous learners.

55:00and for me to be able to leverage what you all bring in terms of best practices. You coach companies all over the world that represent collectively billions of dollars of revenue. You've seen it all. You've heard it all. You recognize things much quicker than I am going to recognize them because I haven't seen it all before. And you guys have. Um, you helped me to recognize blind spots that, uh, you know, we, we rely on our, our YPO, uh, forms for that as well, but they don't necessarily always have the insight into the company's details as your coach does. And, uh, as well as the leadership team.

55:40And, and so helping me to recognize blind spots, helping me to ensure that I can accomplish what I'm trying to achieve with this company, uh, is, is what I've been able to get out of the coaching. because you've always started with, what do you want? What are you trying to achieve? Well, let's help you get there. Not, hey, this is what you should be doing or this is where you ought to be going. It's what are you trying to accomplish? And then what do we need to do to help you get there? And it's been great for me. It has been a critical element in my evolution as a leader. And I think it's been a very, very positive impact on the trajectory of this company.

56:19Let's talk about Tammy for a moment. it's not easy having her job and uh you guys have been together since you guys were kids and um but she's played a pivotal role um supporting you through all kinds of different moments in this journey and um where would you say that um when you had self-doubt or when uh you're debating a tough decision. Talk to me about the role Tammy played in helping you become who you've become. Yeah, no, thanks, Mark. And my wife, Tammy, and I, we met in college. We've actually met as exchange students in Germany. A couple of American kids, her from New Hampshire, me from California, wound up in the same small town in Germany.

57:13And we got married young at 22. We've been married for 33 years. It'll be 34 years this year. And she has just been instrumental. I mentioned when I started the company, this was really a joint decision that I had to make with Tammy. We had three of our four kids at that time. We literally had$25 in the savings account because we were living paycheck to paycheck as young professionals do. Uh, when Timmy and I got married, we, we decided that she was going to be, uh, uh, you know, work in the home mom and raise our kids and, and not work outside of the home. And so I was the sole, uh, income provider for the family.

57:53So me quitting a good paying job that had helped for 11 years to go start a company was, was no small deal. And it really did need her support and her belief before I could do that to begin with. So couldn't have started Coleman without her support. She, in those early days, was very active in the company in terms of helping to get the company set up, provide a lot of the kind of executive administrative support in the company. And but then as we had our fourth child, she had to kind of step back a bit from those early startup days. But if it wasn't for her belief in me, belief in why we were doing this, I would never have been able to get through all of the trials and tribulations that we've had to go through.

58:41Her support has really been unwavering and so important for me. And it's not an easy job. Being married to an entrepreneur is a tough road to hoe. And I will say that, you know, for those that know YPO, Young Presidents Organization, she has taken advantage of the spouse form program. So it's spouses of CEOs have a form and it's been a valuable resource for her, I think, as well. And that's been been super helpful. But my mom had taught me that, you know, talking about work at the dinner table isn't necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people have this, I think, notion that, hey, you don't talk, don't bring work home, right?

59:21Leave work at work and don't bring work home. My mom was raised by entrepreneurs and she talked about how as a kid, how much she valued hearing them talk about the struggles of being small business owners and the opportunities and the challenges and how much she grew from that. So I did that as a young dad and husband. As an entrepreneur, I talked about business at the table and got their ideas and let them see the ups and downs. And so that's been really helpful because both Tammy and my kids have been so supportive in this journey. It's been a family affair for sure. What do you think, Dan, separates CEOs who plateau at 20 or 30 million versus those that break through 100 million and beyond?

1:00:07Look, you got a big lens for that. Firstly, you've done it yourself. You've been in EO and YPO. You've seen those that have gotten stuck and you've seen those that have really broken out and built amazing companies. What is it that separates those, the ones that get stuck and those that go on to become a huge success? Yeah. Boy, I could really only take a stab at it, but I'd say for me, it has been pushing myself out of my comfort zone, continuously learning, surrounding myself with people who I admired and wanted to be more like. And again, that includes my executive team, my YPO forum, my board, and just making sure that I keep challenging myself and want to keep learning and growing and doing better as a leader has allowed me to continue to grow this company too.

1:01:06I think we all have a little bit of a competitive spirit. So we want to do well in our industry and we want to continue to grow our market share. I love the work that I do. And I think that for me, one of our measures of success is the impact that we're making as an international security company. And the more we grow, the more of an impact we make. So we're not viewing our results just in terms of revenue or profit. But we're viewing it in terms of impact that we're making. And so for us, growth is about expanding our impact. That's motivating for me in a company that I believe in our mission and what we do as well.

1:01:44And so, but yeah, pushing myself out of my comfort zone, surrounding myself with great leaders and continuously learning has been, I think, really pivotal in our growth story. One more question for you. If there's an entrepreneur or CEO out there listening right now who's running$20 million,$50 million,$100 million,$200 million company, and they've never had a coach and they're skeptical, what would you tell them? I would say if you're serious about optimizing your performance, that could be the quality of the product or service that you provide, revenue growth, profitability, or all of the above.

1:02:25Investing in a coach will bring you returns that far exceed the cost by allowing you to leverage best practices that they've observed by coaching CEOs around the world, alerting you to blind spots that you might have, holding you accountable for the results that you want to achieve. Um, you know, I just returned, uh, last night from a week at the Olympics. So we were Milan and Cortina, uh, watch the Olympics. And I had the honor to watch literally the greatest athletes in the entire world, uh, perform their craft. And every single one of them had one thing in common. And that is, they were smart enough to know they needed a coach if they wanted to be the best.

1:03:08Um, so for me, that applies to business too. Uh, coach has been really critical for me and I think it would be for others. as well. Well, Deanne, thank you for taking the time today to join me on the Make Big Happen podcast. You're a guy who's clearly made big happen. I know you're still on the journey and you got lots left to do. But your story is inspiring. From at 17, you're out on your own trying to figure out what you're going to do, to having built a great company with great leaders, attracted a terrific PE firm, a terrific leadership team, and really doing something good for the U.S. government and countries around the world to make them safer.

1:03:58It's truly inspiring. So Dan, congratulations and congratulations to you on And keeping it all together during that time with a marriage of 33 years, four kids, grandkids. Congratulations. A life well lived. Thank you, Mark. Thank you for having me on. More importantly, thank you for all you've done in my journey. I appreciate you greatly. Well, you're a great friend, too, Dan, of many, many, many years, now decades. And I look forward to many, many more. Thank you. Likewise. Thanks much. Bye-bye.

1:05:06choice play it safe or go big if you're ready to make big happen visit ceocoachinginternational.com and learn how our been there done that ceo coaches can help you make big happen