SERIES 16: Episode 3 - Born to Run, Bluebella, Sliced Bread, Not Another Bunch of Flowers, Dr Jeff Foster

0:00Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCall and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic. And it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday, I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

0:16Michael Douglas: It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are. You know, I am a believer in America and it's worth fighting for. Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:40Michael Douglas: we are live um but we are not together today where are you i am in new york and you're eating and i'm doing the worst thing in the world how dare i'm eating i'll put it down and i'll eat later you can eat we've not got like official microphones so you can't hear that asmr thing I think you can. Eating nuts. And there, that was a Coke Zero. I love a Coke Zero. I'm so much there, I'll have to go and have a little look. Yeah, so you're in York.

1:11Davina McCall: I am doing, oh my God, I've just got to tell you this. I am doing a talk at the Barbican in York tonight. Yeah. And I don't agree with imposter syndrome. Like... Oh, I've got a theory about this. Yeah, well, but tonight, it's not imposter syndrome. It's like, who do I think I am? Do you know what I mean? Like, how arrogant is it? How huge is my ego that I think a room full of people want to come and hear what I've got to say?

1:44Michael Douglas: Have you sold tickets for it?

1:46Davina McCall: That's what I'm struggling with, yes.

1:48Michael Douglas: You have? Well, that's your answer. Yeah, people want to come and see what you've got to say. Otherwise, they wouldn't have.

1:53Davina McCall: Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping I've sold tickets for it. I don't know. I don't ask if it's full or anything. I just go.

1:59Michael Douglas: Brilliant. I love that. There's a brilliant Stuart Lee joke where he's playing somewhere and he says, he said, there's two people in the front row I haven't turned up. There's two empty seats here. He said, I know what you're thinking. You think I haven't sold out? He says, I have sold out. I'm completely sold out. These people, for whatever reason, decided not to come. They've heard what I'm like and they don't want to hear it, you know. But then he goes on to say it's his dream to have a fully sold out audience that doesn't turn up. He said, that's my dream as a comedian, to play to an empty house that's sold out, you know.

2:30Michael Douglas: It just really made me laugh. It's like, well, great, like, nobody to judge me, but I've got the money, you know. With any luck, no-one will turn up. I miss Stuart Lee. Yeah, yes. I mean, we went to see him not long ago. He was very good, but, yeah, it'd be nice to see what he does next.

2:47Davina McCall: I want him to come to Tunbridge Wells again. He's hilarious in Tunbridge Wells, because he just rips the piss out of us all down there. for being so horribly middle class.

2:56Michael Douglas: So my theory on imposter syndrome, having been an imposter my whole life, really, is that if you feel like an imposter, then you are doing the right thing. Oh, OK. You should feel like an imposter. What that means is that you're working just slightly outside of your capacity. That's so true. Or your competence. And that's where all the learning is. so if you're doing a job where you feel like an imposter then good like you are growing that's exactly what you're supposed to feel so people say oh I wish I could get rid of the imposter syndrome it's like you can but you are not going to grow like feel it lean into it in fact do more things that make you feel like an imposter you know there's a great saying which is in order to become a master you must become a fool you can't learn anything without failing at it so go and fail you know that's where all the growth is so well done you and for stomaching the imposter syndrome and getting on with it you know that's exactly what what you should be doing as you're

3:58Davina McCall: going to find out when I do Elizabeth Day's podcast how to fail I have my entire life run away from failing you have yeah like been nervous of not doing something brilliantly I just can't disagree

4:14Michael Douglas: with that more. I don't think you've run away from anything. You've constantly worked right on the edge of chaos, I would say, which is why you're so brilliant, you know.

4:26Davina McCall: God, you're quite lucky you're not with me.

4:29Michael Douglas: Yeah, would you pounce on me?

4:30Davina McCall: I've been licking your cheeks at this moment.

4:33Michael Douglas: The first recommendation should be do something that makes you feel like...

4:36Davina McCall: That makes you feel uncomfortable, yeah.

4:38Michael Douglas: It's a brilliant place to exist. And I think the danger is if you live there, you can go a bit mad you know you can be filled with anxiety i know you've always said something about your thyroid you you think you might have damaged your thyroid myself your work being so anxious permanently about being on live telly it slightly damaged you so you have to find a balance you know then that little taoist symbol we've talked about before the yin yin symbol which is a wavy line separated by black and white one black dot in the white bit one one white dot in the black bit that wavy line is the line you walk in your life it's wavy because it's upsetting and you one side is order and the other side is chaos and you should have one foot in both of them walk the wavy line what's the dot for if you can imagine it's your two feet and one of them is an ordered foot in chaos and the other one is a chaotic foot in ordered and then you walk that line and they made the wine line wavy specifically because your life is like being on an ocean you know sometimes it's smooth and flat and other times it's you know you're in the middle of a storm and you don't get to choose all you can do is ride that way you know and but the trick is if you spend too much time in order you get totally bored and frustrated and then too much time in chaos is full of anxiety and stress the trick really is trying to do a bit of both you know um but i love you're very good at that yes i feel like i i've got a decent balance of being able to do something I'm very comfortable with.

6:09Michael Douglas: But I probably spend, I reckon, 60 % of my life in a chaotic manner and the other 40 % in a little bit more ordered. And what I'd like to do somewhere down the line is get more 50%.

6:19Davina McCall: 50-50.

6:20Michael Douglas: A bit stressed.

6:22Davina McCall: Let's do that together.

6:23Michael Douglas: Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's try and do that. But congratulations on tonight. I'm really looking forward to hearing how it's going.

6:28Davina McCall: Thanks.

6:29Michael Douglas: So you were at the York Theatre? Yes, Barbican. The Barbican Theatre in York, probably about 7.30 tonight.

6:36Davina McCall: Yeah.

6:36Michael Douglas: And I was going to say people can go and get tickets, but this will go out after you've done it.

6:40Davina McCall: Yeah.

6:41Michael Douglas: So next week.

6:42Davina McCall: So I'll have tales to tell next week.

6:44Michael Douglas: Yeah, to tell us how it went. I've got a couple of good recommendations. Go on. Well, the first one I think I'd like to start with was Bruce Springsteen's autobiography, which I read.

6:55Davina McCall: Oh, yeah. You love that.

6:58Michael Douglas: Let's do it over Christmas. And then we went to Miami for Christmas. So I spent a long time on the beach listening to all of it. and then when it finished

7:07Davina McCall: Can I just quickly tell our listeners something?

7:09Michael Douglas: Yeah

7:10Davina McCall: That quite often it would be so good that he would have to stop and tell me a bit and then we'd do a bit of music appreciation and we'd listen to a track and then he'd explain to me the bits about the track and why it's so good

7:24Michael Douglas: What I realised is that I don't particularly like reading self-help books I don't like reading these kind of non-fiction books like where they're trying to tell you about how to improve your life. There's something about that I feel a bit patronized by. I know there's loads of good books and they help a lot of people. It just doesn't sit well with me for some reason. But what I find is reading the life story of somebody is where I get... Inspiring. Yeah, and all the therapeutic benefits, because I look at the way they applied certain aspects of their lives, relationships with their parents, their ambition, where that comes from, how it drives them mad, you know.

8:02Michael Douglas: And I could not believe the rich therapeutic benefit I got from that book. Yeah. I would say the mixture of Springsteen on Broadway, his music generally, and then that autobiography had the greatest therapeutic benefit to my life that I have ever, ever experienced. I'm not suggesting that people go and do that and they'll get the same benefit. But that was the thing for me. and my recommendation really is to perhaps find an artist or even a television personality or a movie star or something that you like and go and spend a bit of time in their lives. You find that there's situations that crop up in those stories that are so unbelievably helpful.

8:46Davina McCall: That Robbie documentary was amazing.

8:49Michael Douglas: The Robbie Williams one? Yeah, yeah, because he's OK, Robbie. He's not my cup of tea particularly.

8:54Davina McCall: But I particularly loved him after that.

8:57Michael Douglas: Yeah, well, I realised we share a very similar story about our mums and dads. And, you know, his desire to become Robbie Williams was born out of really trying to get his dad to see him. Bruce's story is very similar, you know, and Bono's story is also very similar. You know, men are very, very connected to their dads in such a deep, deep way. And they're blind to it. The interesting thing is they don't necessarily see it until you're prepared to go and look in the dark corners that you don't want to look in. And there, you know, you can find this thing. But then Bruce's relationship with his dad had a really big effect on me.

9:30Michael Douglas: But his endless desire to become the person that he became and what it took for him to do that. And, of course, I'm not trying to be a rock star or anything, but I am trying to do something significant with my life. so I decided to apply I guess the things in that book to my life really and make it more dedicated towards trying to become me and do the thing that I would like to do and not in a selfish way but in a way that's good for me good for my kids good for you good for my family good for womankind

10:03Davina McCall: Michael I've never met anybody that does more for women in general than you oh well thank you no you're amazing like you are just the most amazing like ally to women and supporter of women and you want to make us I mean that's like what your entire website's about is about like making women love themselves yes and how important that is to you and it's such a lovely wonderful thing so I want to thank you for that it's a pleasure thank you for saying thank you that's the thing

10:36Michael Douglas: I found most brilliant about the Bruce Springsteen story was him trying to be as much Bruce Springsteen as he can in order to be the thing that he went on to be. And it was an extremely painful journey because you're looking at somebody who saw himself as a geeky, kind of unattractive, skinny, weak, you know, Italian-American man with a very poor background, you know, trying to get moving, you know, just trying hard in every direction to become good at something. And then, you know, of become something that he feels he can be. And I think there's something in all of us about that. Not that all of us want to be famous and singers, but some of you want to be the best lawyer that you can be, the best doctor you can be, the best mother you could be, you know.

11:18Michael Douglas: And it's very, very hard because who are you, first of all? And that's the thing that's very, very difficult, is to try and fully understand who you are. And only then can you become the thing that you could become. And I think that was the thing that was so brilliant about the book, really. And then there's some brilliant bits in there about friendships that break down, deals that he makes with people where he gets betrayed, huge court battles that he has to go through. And then there's this beautiful chapter at the end where his best friend, Clarence Clements, the saxophone player in his band, with his whole adult life really died.

11:53Michael Douglas: And they have to try and find a replacement for Clarence to go on tour, you know. And they end up with this guy called Jake Clements, which is Clarence's cousin. And Bruce has to audition him and interview him. And the chapter on that is probably the greatest, like, how to employ somebody that you will ever read. Like, you're trying to employ somebody to do a very specific job in a company that you've dedicated your life to, in his case, a band, you know, but in my case, a company, and what it should mean to that person when they come to an interview. and if you listen to nothing else just have a listen to that chapter that chapter yeah

12:34Davina McCall: but I think also like if somebody did go and just listen to the last chapter they'd have to start at the beginning after that like you'd just be like oh my god that was amazing I've just got to start

12:44Michael Douglas: and the other thing I think about Bruce as a kind of metaphor for anybody out there is that he'll say I'm not particularly good at any one thing I'm a pretty good guitarist I'm a pretty good songwriter. I've got an OK voice. What he has got is an incredible band. And when you combine all that stuff together, you get the greatest living rock star on the face of the planet, you know. But in those little individual areas, you're not anything particularly special.

13:12Davina McCall: Can I just say, lyrically, he speaks to you, though?

13:14Michael Douglas: Jesus, the music, the words.

13:16Davina McCall: Yeah, the words.

13:17Michael Douglas: The unbelief. So it's called Born to Run. You can buy it on audio books and just have him read it to you. and lovely stuff in there about his wife.

13:26Davina McCall: And it's him reading it, isn't it?

13:27Michael Douglas: It's him reading it, yeah.

13:29Davina McCall: So lovely.

13:30Michael Douglas: A brilliant storyteller anyway. So, you know, even if you think, oh, I'm not sure that would appeal to me, you know, like give it a whirl or buy it for your husband or your partner or something like that. But it's changed my life, I would say, you know, the way I see myself. And it's been ultimately... That's so lovely. So yeah, Born to Run, the Bruce Springsteen book.

13:52Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McArdle, and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic, and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday, I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

14:09Michael Douglas: It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together, to solve problems where they are. You know, I am a believer in America, and it's worth fighting for. Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

14:28Davina McCall: My God, I feel a bit shallow what I'm going to do. Oh, don't be down. We're on the way. That was so deep. Well, actually, for me, lingerie is deep.

14:37Michael Douglas: Yeah.

14:38Davina McCall: Because you know how I feel about it. I do. I do believe that it's the first thing that you put against your skin in the morning. and most women that I meet and especially sort of perimenopausal plus are a bit like I can't be arsed with comfy underwear anymore and there's something about this idea of kind of feeling invisible that comes with being perimenopausal I remember I just felt like I slipped off the face of the earth and thought that nobody can see me no advertisers are talking to me brands didn't want to lend me clothes anymore like I was just invisible everywhere I suddenly felt like just wearing the underwear like I just didn't care anymore give me comfy give me neutral colors and I had a bit of an epiphany and I thought do you know what I might not be wearing mega underwear for you know my marriage anymore or like it's not you know I've been married for decades and um oh it's all got easy but it's not about that it's about me and how do I want to feel I want to see myself I want to feel important for me yeah and the brilliant way of doing that without having to show anybody else what you're doing is your underwear so I I've got this thing you know I've always been a bit like I've got to wear matching underwear so even when I was wearing comfy underwear I couldn't wear grey pants with a white bra or black bra with grey pants I just couldn't do it I couldn't go out of the door with that on underneath clothes because I knew I wasn't wearing matching underwear so that really is a hard and fast rule for me so I would say start off by wearing if you have to wear comfy underwear wear it the same color and be fastidious about whether you wash your white underwear yeah with all whites do not let your white underwear go gray and the minute there's a hole in your pants replace them but then start thinking about getting or asking for Christmas or birthday some special underwear and I've got to the stage now in my life and I've been here for a while where I only have special underwear.

17:00Davina McCall: I don't ever wear comfy, neutral t-shirt bra ever. And in fact, when somebody goes, but then you can see it through the t-shirt. I go, yes, that's the point.

17:11Michael Douglas: That's a what?

17:12Davina McCall: I am wearing nice underwear through this t-shirt. Like deal with it. So I love nice underwear. And there is a brand I've got to know, the but I didn't know her before but I used to buy their underwear before I knew her a brand called Blue Bella and Blue Bella what I love about Blue Bella is that they also really cater um for women with small boobs I don't think many lingerie brands think about women with small boobs okay and lots of them and they advertise they just show women with enormous lils like modeling the modeling but this woman is really good at covering all bases for all sizes she's she's brilliant and she sells also in Victoria's Secret but that what they do is they have a brilliant range of making very very pretty feminine lacy underwear that matches and it looks gorgeous but they have just started going they've always gone a bit sexy but they've just gone a little bit more sexy okay so they've got things like some kind of harness type things or they've got an amazing bra that's got an open I mean this is stuff that you probably couldn't wear under clothing because yeah it's impractical it's like for the it's for bedroom only not right but it's stunning it's so good it's classy sexy do you know what I mean yeah yes I do I do I've

18:48Michael Douglas: examined it in great detail it's not exactly what i've called sexy yeah yeah it's not tacky it's

18:56Davina McCall: made nicely but it's not prohibitively expensive either so i am recommending blue bella yeah good

19:03Michael Douglas: good i'm very glad you know it's interesting you know you talk about that like you wear the underwear for you you know you know one of the things i've realized recently and i don't know if i've said this in previous episodes or not is that the only thing you experience in your life is your experience of life. You don't experience other people's feelings. You might be able to influence them, but you don't get to experience them. You only get to experience your feelings as a result, perhaps, of their feelings. So you doing something for somebody else is a lovely thing to do, but it's only your feelings that you experience out of that lovely thing to do.

19:37Michael Douglas: So it is worth kind of thinking hard about the things that make you feel good because relying on other people to make your feelings good is a dead-end game, really. You've really got to try and...

19:51Davina McCall: Only you can make yourself happy.

19:53Michael Douglas: Yes, I think so. It's an inside job. And I think it's also worth remembering that your experience is the only thing you've got for being alive. You don't get experience that anybody else is. So doing something nice for yourself, doing your hair, putting on nice underwear, doing your makeup or whatever... It's page one. ...feel good. then absolutely dedicate some of your life to doing it to you yeah to you you know like you know i think i said somebody recently said do you go and see a therapist i'm like no like i am the greatest expert of me there is on this planet you know i will help i'm second greatest yeah yeah you probably are pretty good at that i'm the expert of me you know um i've been 53 years trying to work that out but yeah it's a great recommendation that it's bluebella.com by

20:41Davina McCall: by the way, just to let you know.

20:43Michael Douglas: Now, I've just been listening to Radio 4, and people might be interested in this, but there's a series on there called Sliced Bread. And the idea is, is it as good as sliced bread? You know, like, so they examine lots of different things. Like, I listened to one a while ago about salt, which is really good, because you have to buy all this Himalayan, Maldon salt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there any difference between these salts? You know, like, is it worth spending extra money on getting table salt or getting Himalayan pink salt or whatever?

21:11Davina McCall: And?

21:12Michael Douglas: No, basically, there's no difference. There are certain minerals in these rock salts and Himalayan salts and stuff like that. But the level of minerals that are in there are so insignificant that you would have to heat all the box of salt in order to benefit from it. And that would kill you, you know. So at the end of the day, it was like, well, salt is pretty much salt. So if you want to spend money on nice salt, fill your boots. but don't be thinking that somehow you've got some massive nutritional benefit from having it so anyway that was one that was good but um i'm recommending the series generally because it's this quite nice deep dive but they've just done one on male testosterone today with dr jeff foster oh really yeah it was just random i was eating my lunch and i thought oh my god how funny it was really good and they had this guy on there who'd been for a testosterone test his testosterone was lowered about 10 which um below 12 they're saying is now is the kind of

22:06Davina McCall: limit of you having low testosterone for men yeah free testosterone was about 0.86 or something like

22:12Michael Douglas: that which is kind of on the low side but he'd been recommended you know taking trt testosterone replacement therapy and then they had a doctor on talking about it had jeff talking about it had a company manual on it who who assesses it but um they do this thing at the end saying is it sb or is it bs sb mean is it sliced bread or is it bullshit you know and it was unanimous that it was sliced bread, you know, that actually this could make a massive, significant difference to men.

22:40Davina McCall: Oh, that's a really good idea for a show.

22:43Michael Douglas: Yeah, yeah, it's good, isn't it? So I'm going to recommend that, that sliced bread on Radio Port. But if you've got a partner or a husband or a guy listening to this and you're a bit concerned about your testosterone, then I would say that's really well worth a listen. The last time I got mine tested, it was on the low side. I think it was about 15, which is at the lower end of the scale. But I don't know what's happened to me since then. And I feel a lot, lot better than I did last year when I took that test.

23:07Davina McCall: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

23:08Michael Douglas: I don't feel low mood or low sex drive or low of any of that kind of stuff at the moment. So I have no real desire to test it. But it was a nice little rich information pot of, oh, now I've heard this from the horse's mouth. And maybe at some point in my 50s, I might end up taking testosterone. But it gave me a lot more confidence. in the same way that you do with HRT about cancer risks, you know, reduced risks of dementia.

23:36Davina McCall: And what we need to say, I'm just going to do a quick thing there, is that do check with a menopause specialist about those things because your lower risk of dementia only happens if you take HRT early on in your perimenopausal journey. So if you wait too long, you don't get those benefits. the benefits for cardiovascular disease are um real um for your blood vessels and everything and it really helps yeah there are other benefits too but go and see a menopause doctor or talk to one of those about that i'm gonna do now that my memory is fully back and i'm fully kind of functioning on every level yes it is don't you remember i told you i've forgotten um but i i'm going to do a lot more lives again this year just sort of helping women and women's health and talking about all things women's health with experts so brace yourselves for that I've got another recommendation this is my final one it's a company called notanotherbunchofflowers.com and I'm quickly gonna go on their website so I can tell you what they do they do like build your own gift boxes which I really like so they've got a selection of ready-made gift boxes which are next level gorgeous so it's like a bath and body hamper for 30 quid there's a wine and nibbles gift box and there's birthday treats gift box and they range you know the birthday treats gift box has got a couple of bottles of champagne in there and it's 26 quid but then you've got a bestseller book gift box so you can get like lessons in chemistry and you get a matching pair of socks and some Tony's chocolate for 28 quid but you can also make your own and you can you can build a care package for every occasion so it could be Valentine's box or get well soon box or build a bay like for a girlfriend it's like got everything in it not just a kind of bunch of flowers and a bunch of flowers is always lovely don't get me wrong But if you're thinking, I want a little something extra, something a bit more tailor-made to somebody and something that is going to mean something more, this is a really good website.

25:56Davina McCall: So notanotherbunchofflowers.com.

25:58Michael Douglas: Great. And I will finish off just by saying Dr. Jeff Foster, who was on the Radio 4 show talking about it. Oh, yeah. He's on Instagram under Dr. Jeff Foster.

26:09Davina McCall: And he's brilliant.

26:10Michael Douglas: Yeah, he's great. He also has a podcast on that. I said I would give a mention, but we've only just started this podcast again. And it's a new male health podcast called Man Alive. And he interviews all sorts of men and specialists around men's health and stuff like that. I am going to go on it as a guest.

26:28Davina McCall: I was just going to say you should go on it.

26:30Michael Douglas: Yeah, he's asked me to go on. I'm not entirely sure what I can contribute there. But perhaps just... Can I just say something?

26:35Davina McCall: You can contribute a lot.

26:37Michael Douglas: Yeah, well, I'll try. Yeah, thank you.

26:39Davina McCall: You're brilliant at talking.

26:41Michael Douglas: Thank you. But I've noticed Sam Talks Sex follows him, along with lots of other people who follow us. But yeah, Dr. Jeff Foster and the Man Alive podcast, I'll recommend that. Yeah, okay, let's have a look, see if there's any quick shout outs we can make. It's a bit short this week, but we've both been so incredibly busy. Right, General, I think I stuck a couple in there. So let's have a little look here. So one week ago, this is from a bloke, from Gary Brown.

27:10Davina McCall: Look, we're like, oh my God, this is from a book.

27:14Michael Douglas: Great to have you both back. Fit and well, congratulations on your wedding. It's your male listener again, Gary Brown. Big up, Gary.

27:22Davina McCall: Big up, Gary.

27:24Michael Douglas: Not sure if you're still taking recommendations with the new shorter, snappier format, but if you could, I'd highly recommend a series. It's called Landman and it stars Tommy Lee Jones, Demi Moore, Andy Garcia. Tommy Lee Jones.

27:37Davina McCall: Oh, wow.

27:38Michael Douglas: Tommy Lee Jones is Tommy Norris, a crisis executive in the West Texas oil fields. He has to deal with roughneck billionaires, cartels and environmental challenges, as well as juggling a crazy home life, mostly due to his gregarious wife, Angela. It's a bit of a modern day Western. There's loads of fortunes won and lost. It's on Paramount and it's definitely worth a watch, Gary Brown.

27:58Davina McCall: What's it called?

27:59Michael Douglas: Landman.

28:00Davina McCall: Landman. I'm going to start that.

28:03Michael Douglas: Yeah, Tommy Lee Jones. But Adam Garcia. yes Andy Garcia

28:10Davina McCall: oh

28:12Michael Douglas: I got really excited then yeah

28:16Davina McCall: Adam

28:17Michael Douglas: but I've heard this recommended a few times so definitely we want to watch this

28:21Davina McCall: yeah well should we start watching it together

28:23Michael Douglas: yeah I'd love to do that so we started watching His and Hers this week so we're going to perhaps recommend that next week and I started watching Mr Mercedes this week as well the Brendan Gleeson so I'll talk a bit about that next week but thanks very much for that Gary Brilliant, Gary. And Sarah Herve. Sarah is Herve. It says, yay, you are back. Loads of congrats. So much love to Davina for being open and vulnerable about her health. Thanks. It will be helping so many people. One thing I did want to say when I was talking about my love of what Bruce Springsteen has done for me, I realised the important role that famous people can have in regular people's lives.

29:06Michael Douglas: and you know Bruce putting his life in paper or out there has helped me you know and I realize also what it means to be married to somebody like you who also does that and what it's like to be around somebody who you know puts themselves out in a way that is to benefit and help other people and I just want to say well done you because I realize what you stand for for a lot of people. I watched them stop you in the street and see how grateful they are for what you decided to do with your fame and your time. So in the way that Springsteen has helped me I realise that you're also helping lots of people but if you could write some good songs as well that would be good.

29:52Michael Douglas: I'll just try and make you laugh at the end there.

29:57Michael Douglas: But Sarah is essentially encapsulating that and saying that Wow, this is a great big long message. Well, I'll read it because there's nice things in it. You guys, I'm so glad you're back. Huge congratulations on your marriage. How the heck did I miss that? Also, congratulations, Davina, on your final radiotherapy session. Yes. I love this episode so much. I recently downloaded Merlin. And like Davina, I'm asking myself, who am I? I would like to recommend a documentary. I think you'll both enjoy. It's on Channel 4 and it's called Bowie, The Final Act. It charts most of Bowie's musical history and some of his life.

30:35Michael Douglas: And it's absolutely fascinating. Oh, yeah. In it, an artist he collaborated with that you didn't know about. So that's great. I played his music for hours.

30:44Davina McCall: Yeah, I definitely, definitely want to watch that. I went forensic on one of Bowie's stylists last night on Instagram. Yeah, it was amazing. He's got like loads of his clothes and outfits.

30:57Michael Douglas: It says, I played his music for hours after watching this. what a creative genius he was and also a cultural prophet so good oh and I loved the Jimmy Carr clip you played brilliant, I wish I had a gong like Davina's might have to treat myself to a sound bowl instead love Roz brilliant Roz oh thanks Roz there are a few more messages there but I know we're both in a rush to get on with other work I'm going to see the lovely Kate Bush tonight to do her hair

31:26Davina McCall: send her my love

31:27Michael Douglas: we have a curry night It's absolutely brilliant. I'm really looking forward to that. And I will speak to you later.

31:33Davina McCall: Yeah.

31:34Michael Douglas: And lots of love, everybody.

31:36Davina McCall: Love you all.

31:37Michael Douglas: Yeah, take care. I'll speak to you later. Bye-bye.

31:39Davina McCall: Bye. Bye.

31:51Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McArdle, and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a new show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic. And it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. Every Wednesday, I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward.

32:07Michael Douglas: It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together, to solve problems where they are. You know, I am a believer in America, and it's worth fighting for. Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.