SERIES 18: Episode 3 - The Odyssey, The Economist, salt, Tim Minchin, Acid Banana, Kimmy Beatbox

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1:06Michael Douglas: We are recording. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Episode 3. Episode 3. Season 18.

1:14Davina McCall: Oh my God. I mean, I can't believe that you can remember the seasons.

1:17Michael Douglas: It's because I saw Saskia today. Oh. And she was saying...

1:23Davina McCall: That's cheating.

1:24Michael Douglas: It's quite funny. She came to see me. Saskia is our kind of producer, editor, and helps us with this podcast. So she cuts all our podcasts.

1:32Davina McCall: She knows us intimately.

1:34Michael Douglas: I only see her about once a year. Yes, I love her. Yeah, yeah, she's brilliant. She's a brilliant woman. She'll be listening to this. Thank you, Saskia. Thank you, Saskia. And she came to see me today, you know, and we had a chat. that she knows me more than I know her. No, because she listens. Yes, that's what's so weird.

1:51Davina McCall: We need her to start sending a sort of solo podcast back to us where she just talks for half an hour and we can listen to it every week.

2:00Michael Douglas: Yeah, we can understand ourselves.

2:01Davina McCall: What's been happening in your life, Saskia? Yeah, yeah. We've got to talk about the film.

2:06Michael Douglas: Yeah, yes.

2:07Davina McCall: I'm so excited to unpick it with you.

2:10Michael Douglas: Yeah, so we went to see Odyssey. The Odyssey.

2:13Davina McCall: The Odyssey.

2:15Michael Douglas: Is it called The Odyssey?

2:16Davina McCall: Yeah. Oh, is it? Yeah.

2:17Michael Douglas: The Odyssey. Yeah, we went to see this, which is the new Christopher Nolan film with Matt Damon in it and Charlize Theron.

2:23Davina McCall: Yeah.

2:24Michael Douglas: And Tom, what's he called? Holland?

2:26Davina McCall: Tom Holland. And Zendaya.

2:29Michael Douglas: Zendaya. I mean, there's so many brilliant actors in it.

2:32Davina McCall: I mean, it is unbelievable. Travis Scott.

2:37Michael Douglas: I mean, it's got eight points.

2:38Davina McCall: Robert Pattinson.

2:40Michael Douglas: I'm not keen on him.

2:41Davina McCall: Yes, I know you're...

2:43Michael Douglas: But I say I'm not keen on him. I'm not keen on the characters he plays, you know.

2:48Davina McCall: But maybe that's the casting.

2:49Michael Douglas: But they're meant to be not very nice people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not his fault, you know. You should choose happier jobs.

2:59Davina McCall: But am I right in saying that this is from the work of Homer?

3:04Michael Douglas: I think it's a big Greek mythic film. Hang on.

3:08Davina McCall: film yes Homer's ancient Greek epic poem the Odyssey and so this is a film with all the really dramatic Greek mythology in it so you've got the Cyclops you've got Trojans you've got

3:26Michael Douglas: Helen of Troy sirens you've got the sirens and the suitors um and the suitors it is it's an epic And it's also full, you know, obviously the Greeks were philosophers,

3:40Davina McCall: and there is full of meaning.

3:43Michael Douglas: Yeah, yeah.

3:43Davina McCall: Every single scene. I mean, the minute it finished, and we were very nervous about the length of the movie.

3:50Michael Douglas: Yes, two hours, 53 minutes.

3:53Davina McCall: It's very long.

3:54Michael Douglas: Yeah.

3:55Davina McCall: But I honestly, at the end of it, I thought, God, I need to watch it again now that I've seen it once so I can unpick it more. Yeah. There's so much to get at. And I love films where you and I talk about it for days afterwards.

4:13Michael Douglas: Yeah, what I also like is when you go and watch a film and then you go and see various journalists write about the film.

4:19Davina McCall: Yes.

4:19Michael Douglas: And then you start to kind of wheedle it into your life. There's little lessons in it. The thing about fiction, I think, which is good fiction, has a lot of truth in it.

4:29Davina McCall: Yes, exactly. It's made up stories. That's exactly what I was trying to say. That's exactly it.

4:32Michael Douglas: They tell you the truth. I love that. Yeah. And that's what really good stories do. Yes. You know, like War and Peace and all of that kind of stuff. All these big, big fictional stories teach you something about yourself. Yes. And that's what art is, really. And that's why I love I'm picking it with you,

4:48Davina McCall: because you're such a good person to talk, you know, to bounce ideas around with. And you've always got an interesting take on something. So I'm always interested to hear. Yeah. And what was it you were saying? oh, I loved it when they were talking about Samantha Morton. I don't want to give too much of the film away, but there's a moment in it where she does something to some soldiers. To some men, basically. Yeah, to men. And they were all men. She does it because she's scared. But you don't realise that until you just think she's horrible. And then you realise she's been tainted by this kind of all-men idea that all men are bad, that masculinity is terrifying.

5:33Michael Douglas: There's a really interesting, if anybody's interested, there's a really interesting article in The Spectator written by Winston Marshall about how it's a, he said it's an actual anti-woke film, that actually what it's trying to demonstrate is the opposite of what you think it is, you know. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. I read the article before I went to see the movie.

5:56Davina McCall: Did it affect how you viewed the movie? It did, yeah, yeah, it did. Right, because you put a different pair of glasses on. Now I want to see it again.

6:02Michael Douglas: Because obviously it's about masculinity in many ways. It's about this very heroic type character and how loyal he is to his men.

6:09Davina McCall: And how we've not really been... Men are a bit lost really, aren't they, on that path?

6:15Michael Douglas: That's been the conversation for the last 20 years or so in some ways. Obviously all this talk about toxic masculinity and men are a big problem. And of course some men really are a big problem. but it's just you take a giant movie like that and you make them slightly more heroic and it reinforces a type of love of masculinity again and realise that it's got value and power and competence and all of those things that are actually good for everybody.

6:43Davina McCall: I think these sort of labels, anything toxic is a bad label because it's like saying masculinity in its entirety is toxic and it's not. and feminist it would be like saying toxic femininity femininity in its entirety is not toxic some women can be some men can be but doing these huge sweeping generalizations and look i'm i'm not not understanding that some women do go through very very difficult situations at the hands of men and some men yeah go through very very difficult situations at the hands of women we we mustn't demonize either side yeah yeah the old gender politics and all of that gender politics is not healthy for anyone we we need to support each other as as our sexism whatever you want to be i mean like look when when we talk about us as a couple um and somebody talks about how come you guys get on so well yeah my thing is is that i let you be exactly you whoever you are and whoever you are i love you yeah yeah because i love you yeah well and you let me the interesting be exactly who I am.

8:06Michael Douglas: The interesting thing about that idea is that in order for you to allow me to be me, I have to reveal myself to you. And that's the big worry, I think, for a lot of people. There's that great bit of poetry in that. There's a book called Salt by an African poet.

8:23Davina McCall: Oh, yes, she's amazing. I can't remember what it is,

8:25Michael Douglas: but I recommended it many, many moons ago on this podcast.

8:28Davina McCall: It was one of the first things you recommended, I think.

8:31Michael Douglas: Yeah, probably in season one or season two. but there's a lovely tiny short poem in the book and it says show me who you are because I will get to see you in the end and I laughed about that and thought oh god yeah like you can't hide yourself forever you know so if you are going to fall in love with somebody it's a very good idea to like know exactly who you are so and they do the same then you cut a deal that you always be yourself but you always encourage each other to do that. To do that, yeah. And then you love the very person they are, not the person you'd like them to be.

9:05Davina McCall: And that is another thing that I think people fall in love with, someone's potential and then spend their lives trying to change them into that person. And then the person that they're trying to change feels unloved and not loved as they are and for who they are.

9:19Michael Douglas: Yeah.

9:19Davina McCall: That's where it all goes wrong.

9:20Michael Douglas: It's incredible. There's a rising up into love in a way. I don't know how we've got on this subject, but what I like about this movie in particular is that you've got a very solid, central male character with men that he's loyal to and good to, and he's trying to return to his wife. And there's two or three very strong female characters in the film as well, I think, which I think gives the whole thing a nice balance.

9:42Davina McCall: Yes.

9:43Michael Douglas: But I love the fact that he... I'm not going to ruin the end, but he comes back and kind of dismantles a lot of weak, pathetic men. Yes. Because there's a lot of weak, pathetic men out there. Yes. It's just this great balance of trying to understand the heaven flow of what it is.

10:01Davina McCall: It's a big message.

10:02Michael Douglas: Yeah, it's a brilliant film.

10:04Davina McCall: Just in case anybody's interested, Salt is by Nayira Wahid. Oh yeah, Nayira Wahid. Yeah.

10:11Michael Douglas: If you're looking for a poetry book...

10:12Davina McCall: It is extraordinary.

10:13Michael Douglas: ...and you're like Donna Ashworth and the like, this is in a slightly different crease of, I'm not sure you'd call it feminism or something, but she's a beautiful African poet and the book is called Salt and it is sensational, the poetry in that book. Yeah, it's cracked me open, but that one line, show me who you are, because I will see you in the end. I was like, okay, yeah, that's the way to go.

10:43Davina McCall: She's like, rest of taking, she's brilliant.

10:44Michael Douglas: So Odyssey is two hours, 53 minutes, it's a 15. It is out now in the cinema.

10:50Davina McCall: And I've just got to say one other thing, sorry, because we're always banging on about it's got to be under two hours. But this has got an 8.5. I mean, that is why. Yeah. You know, it's still epic. And the first half an hour, we were like, oh, OK, OK. And then I thought, God, how am I going to make three hours? Literally, the last hour and a half just flew by.

11:11Michael Douglas: Amazing, wasn't it?

11:12Davina McCall: It was. I was like, I was sad when it ended.

11:15Michael Douglas: What me and Davina do sometimes if we're a bit bored is we sing each other songs. I don't know if we've told you this before or not, But on Apple Music, on certain songs, you can get rid of the vocal and then you can sing over the top of it. It's like a little mini karaoke machine.

11:31Davina McCall: It's so good. It's really good. It's so good.

11:33Michael Douglas: Apple Music only works on your phone, not on your iPad. But if you click the little speech bubble in the bottom left-hand corner, you can reduce the vocal sound down to a small amount. So you've got it as a guide and then you can sing over the top. and we went to our, we got a room where we've got microphones and some speakers and we were supposed to say a karaoke room yeah a little karaoke room and I said I was going to sing Davina a song and sometimes I have literally no idea what I'm going to sing I just like randomly look at my phone and try and find something and think oh I'll see if I can sing this

12:07Davina McCall: if this is what I think it is, it was breathtaking

12:09Michael Douglas: well it was alright, you know I think I messed up a bit Michael, it was breathtaking Let me find the song because this is my recommendation for this week. It's a brilliant, brilliant song, this. And it's by Tim Minchin. And I love Tim Minchin. His lyrics are so brilliant, aren't they? And he managed to articulate big philosophical ideas into lyrics that rhyme and then work musically.

12:36Davina McCall: Didn't, yes, we went to see Odyssey and he was talking about...

12:40Michael Douglas: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That was the link. Sorry, sorry, sorry. That's all right. So yeah, I said to Davina, I'm going to sing your song. The singing thing is not about wanting to sing, it's about wanting to feel free. And if somebody asked you to sing a song, you might think, fucking hell, I do not want to do that. Like, that makes me feel anxious. We decided to lean towards anxiety to try and defeat it. So we'll often do things that put us under an enormous amount of anxious pressure.

13:08Davina McCall: You've taught me so much with that because I am, or I was a perfectionist.

13:14Michael Douglas: Yeah, okay.

13:14Davina McCall: And unless I could do something brilliantly, I wouldn't try.

13:18Michael Douglas: Ah, okay.

13:19Davina McCall: And so I've been failing at handstands.

13:22Michael Douglas: Well done.

13:22Davina McCall: And I've been failing at singing.

13:24Michael Douglas: Well done.

13:25Davina McCall: And what I love about you is that even when I know it possibly isn't really my song or not my thing, I'll carry on going. and at the end you really congratulate me for not giving up I love it yeah because that's where all

13:42Michael Douglas: the success is really there was a brilliant interview with Elon Musk this week he did a chat with a lot of kids from Stanford you know the big university oh yeah and somebody had said what is it you're looking for when you employ somebody and he said the tolerance for pain that's what I'm interested in what do you mean what can you tolerate before you give up how much oh wow and he said that's all i'm interested in you can be the cleverest bloke in the world but if you've no tolerance for failure just give up straight yeah right and then you'll apply your intelligence to something easier it's of no use i want i want somebody who's willing to do it as a small skinny man with no real physical strength i'm realizing that my strength and power is in my ability to keep going no matter how emotionally you are brilliant at

14:29Davina McCall: that yeah well I'm trying um but can I also quickly ask you about Elon Musk because he's an incredibly um controversial figure and for lots of people they are um literally repulsed by the sound of his name so can you tell me why is that and why do you like him because you've done more Elon

14:49Michael Douglas: research than anybody I know a lot yeah yeah mainly because you know I am an entrepreneur you know I have a business and it needs investors and all sorts of stuff so the process that he's doing is the same one that I'm doing. So it's quite nice that he puts himself on display and talks about pressures and all sorts of things, you know, because it gives you some idea of what is actually required to try and do something very, very difficult. And when you're having to deal with investors and people who want their money back times 10 and all that kind of stuff, I'm in that world, you know, and it's bloody hard work, you know.

15:20Michael Douglas: And you realise that a lot of it's about confidence and a lot of it's about the act. You know, there was this great thing that somebody said to me recently. I don't know if I said it on this before, but in order to get to sleep, you have to at first pretend to be asleep. And I thought, fuck it, that's absolutely brilliant. But if you take that and you apply it to other things in your life, you know, you could say, well, in order to be successful, I have to start at least pretending to be successful, you know. and that is the nuts and bolts of what the investors are looking for is the act is do I believe this person can do this thing if I give him a million pounds will he give me 10 million back and what you have to do is a performance in some way when you when you speak to investors that you instill a belief in them that you can carry out this thing and that is an act it's a but it's part of pretending because you've no idea because the future is not yet written, you know.

16:20Michael Douglas: So he often does this thing where he says, oh, I'm building a new car. It'll be ready in April next year. And everyone gets really excited. He's always late. He's always like three months late. And everyone's like, fuck it. But he's like, well, you know, you've got to set a date and go for it. You know, it's like, be ambitious, you know. So there's lots of things I like about him from a business point of view. And I also like the fact that he is controversial. you will say the unsayable. And I think that is good because... So this week, this is a recommendation, actually. He's done a big interview with the editor of The Economist this week, and it's all over social media and all the rest of it.

16:56Michael Douglas: So if you want to subscribe to The Economist, I think it's brilliant.

16:59Davina McCall: It is. I'll second that. I'm going to write that down. That's a very good recommendation.

17:03Michael Douglas: Brilliant magazine, full of brilliant, rich information from loads of big thinkers, men and women alike. Superb, but they managed to get a big interview with Elon Musk, and it was really good. She was brilliant at interviewing, very challenging.

17:18Davina McCall: Did he enjoy being challenged? Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I think when somebody's intellectual and they are asking him good questions, if they're challenging, he rises to the occasion. Yeah.

17:30Michael Douglas: And what I like about him is that he's prepared to say something that most people wouldn't say. And he's prepared to say something, knowing that he might be wrong about it but he'll say it anyway and that will spark the debate about whether he's right or wrong or not and the debate is the important bit that's the logos, that is

17:56Davina McCall: and would he say, oh I was wrong about that?

18:00Michael Douglas: yeah, yeah, he said many times he's deleted message, tweets and stuff and said like, oh yeah, I'm wrong about that but he'll push and push and push and what's required in order to work things out is the opposition to the position. And that's why you've got right or left politics, because you need an argument in order to find a solution. Because everyone agrees, then what's the point? But even worse than that,

18:24Davina McCall: if people are frightened to disagree.

18:26Michael Douglas: Exactly.

18:27Davina McCall: And that is the crime that has happened over the last few years. The fear of being cancelled has made people too frightened to say what they think. And then nobody can make up their minds about anything because...

18:41Michael Douglas: So I think what he's done is allowed a kind of playground, if you like, it's quite a violent playground, X, to get these debates going. And I think what's happening now is things are starting to settle down a bit. Yes. And...

18:56Davina McCall: I would agree with that. Yeah.

18:58Michael Douglas: But I think he's a kind of necessary evil in some ways.

19:01Davina McCall: I think he's brave for doing what he's doing. And I sometimes wonder if he kind of goes home and sort of giggles to himself and goes, God, I've already thrown a spanner in the works today.

19:11Michael Douglas: I don't know what it would be like to be him. It would probably be pretty terrifying, I would have thought.

19:16Davina McCall: In what way?

19:17Michael Douglas: I mean, I wouldn't want to be Elon Musk. It would be...

19:23Davina McCall: He operates on a different level to anyone else. He's working in a completely different system. In a different system, yeah.

19:29Michael Douglas: And the types of physics he's playing with and the companies he's producing are just bizarre. But there'll be a big picture at some point that'll explode.

19:39Davina McCall: I don't really know enough about him but I do think he's very interesting but what I do like is how much he gets everybody talking about everything

19:48Michael Douglas: that's the point I think words and discourse is how you resolve the problems of the world

19:55Davina McCall: and people disagreeing with him has got everybody talking about topics that they need to think about

19:59Michael Douglas: that's why he's very good sorry we drifted off on that and also we do appreciate that lots of people don't like him so you don't need to kind of tell us how much you don't like him or anything or whether you disagree. It's fine, you know, we can all agree and disagree. And we can all still be friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's no big deal. So there's a brilliant Tim Minchin song, this is the thing I want to talk about, and it's called I'll Take Lonely Tonight. Now, Tim Minchin is a brilliant composer, pianist, musician, comedian, and he often goes on tours, big world tours with his orchestra and all that stuff and plays these big arenas.

20:36Michael Douglas: and occasionally will probably get propositioned. Now, he loves his wife and his wife's in a lot of his songs and music and stuff like that and he talks about their marriage and their relationship in the art that he produces. But this particular song is very good, but it's about being propositioned by a girl. While he's away from home. While he's away from home. Yeah, so good. And he turns her down. But the song is about thinking about all the things. If he was a younger person, he would probably do it. You know, like, what would be the consequences? would it be better? And it's called I'll Take Lonely Tonight but there is a brilliant line in it which I'll just find here.

21:15Michael Douglas: And it's about Odysseus because it's so weird. That's so mad. I sang this song to you literally the night after we went to see Odyssey.

21:23Davina McCall: That is so mad. So I'm going to read some of these

21:28Michael Douglas: like a bit of poetry. Or play it. Future regrets

21:33Davina McCall: That I didn't More often take up these chances For what is life for But to shack, drink and dance And teenager me Would be screaming his pants off Begging me To stay

21:56Michael Douglas: Oh, it's great, isn't it? In a house, half a planet away And then this line here is great, listen to this And I'd rather murder than hurt her So sorry though I feel so And then this line about Odysseus is coming up now I'm gonna take lonely tonight

22:24Michael Douglas: It's very peculiar, this line totally Very good

22:48The devil

22:51Michael Douglas: should have offered him you I mean what It's just brilliant, isn't it?

22:58Davina McCall: The lyrics are so brilliant.

23:01Michael Douglas: They're very, very good. And there's a great line at the end where he basically has all this shame because all he's done is eating chocolate instead. He's got all these sins to atone for, but they're actually just a Toblerone and a bucket of Pringles, rather than he had sex with somebody else. Well, that's fine. But it's great. But it was a very weird link to Odyssey. So yeah, go and see that and go and listen to that song.

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25:34Davina McCall: I have got a few quickies that I want to do. So my first one is the Big Daddy Pistachio, which is a chocolate bar which we came across at someone's house and I literally it was open it's about this big and I picked up the entire bar and just bit a bit out of it it is magnificent and obviously Marks and Spencers know they're onto a good thing it is made by Marks and Spencers it comes in the packet it also comes in little mini bites i mean they're obviously branding it into a million gazillion different things but it is mega mega next thing i want to recommend is an instagram account called acid banana now they are acid banana.co.uk but they make really really fun bright colorful jewelry festival stuff beads beads loads of beads but in very kind of chunky colorful um yeah they're very bright whereas a lot of the other ones go very muted yes this is like really fun and it could be for women it could be for girls it could be for boys um she made us a couple of brilliant ones which are called rock steady necklaces those have sold out but it's a really really nice site so i would highly recommend that acid banana on instagram acid banana.co.uk online um one other thing i'm just quickly going to recommend and this is um a girl called kimmy kimmy beatbox and i have talked about her I'd say Kimmy Badenock.

27:21Michael Douglas: Yo, Kimmy.

27:23Davina McCall: But Kimmy Beatbox blows my mind, like so massively. And she does these great videos where she does kind of tutorials on... Look, listen to this.

27:38Michael Douglas: When we were kids, when we were breakdancers, we were beatboxers as well. I'll show you a bit of beatboxing in a minute.

27:44Davina McCall: Oh, you can do it. Can you? Kind of. OK, are you ready? I've got to get that, get that.

28:01Davina McCall: She's doing this with her mouth.

28:04Michael Douglas: I know. Sounds outrageous.

28:12Davina McCall: It's so good. She blows my mind. she's unbelievably cool okay Michael do your beatbox I've not got a spit

28:32Michael Douglas: used to be L2 the first time I heard it was Dougie fresh remember Dougie fresh and get fresh crew.

28:38Davina McCall: Get fresh, you're on. Dougie Fresh, you're on.

28:46Michael Douglas: Something like that. That's actually quite... Yeah, that's alright, wasn't it?

28:50Davina McCall: Do you know what the kids go? And they go, that's low-key, that's low-key good.

28:55Michael Douglas: Oh, is it BTEC?

28:55Davina McCall: Or is it high-key good? Yeah. I don't know. I remember going, oh...

29:02Michael Douglas: Oh, yeah, yeah.

29:04Davina McCall: It's not very good either.

29:05Michael Douglas: But yeah, she is very good, her. she's Kimmy Beatbox absolutely amazing

29:08Davina McCall: breathtaking she's fab one other one other oh go on I'm sorry I just want to quickly talk about Shoop Doop yep you and I we love Shoop Doop

29:18Michael Douglas: oh Shoop Doop what was the festival called

29:20Davina McCall: it was at Love Supreme

29:23Michael Douglas: Love Supreme Festival and Ancient and Brave yeah we were there with them had a tent

29:29Davina McCall: at the Love Supreme Festival which I would highly recommend going to next year it is really really good fun but Shoop Doop London so on Instagram they are Shoop underscore Doop underscore London go on to their Instagram page and follow them just to let you know they're followed by DJ Fat Tony De La Varley who made my wedding dress Joe Elvin Dean Piper so loads of people absolutely adore them and they are just the happiest clothes you've ever seen in your life I bought the most amazing fake fur jacket on the hottest day of the year and that's a testament to how brilliant their shop is. If you want to be seen, shop at Shoop Doop.

30:09Michael Douglas: If you look on our Instagrams, the little jacket that I've got on when we did the Fern Cotton's Happy Place Festival

30:16Davina McCall: is from Shoop Doop, London, isn't it?

30:18Michael Douglas: I don't think we've actually made any content from that footage.

30:21Davina McCall: Right.

30:22Michael Douglas: They've sent us all the footage anyway today from Happy Place Festival. Oh, have they? Harriet, our new CEO of Making the Cut. Yes, Harriet. She will start chopping that up and start putting content out on Instagram. Great. But that little cardi I've got on there is the shoot dupe cardi. It's really brilliant.

30:37Davina McCall: And it's really good, isn't it? And I think, you know, I'm always talking about when women go through a period of their life where they just feel invisible. And you go into perimenopause and suddenly you're like, who am I? What's the point? I'm not seen anymore. No one's speaking to me as advertisers. Designers don't want to design for me anymore. I'm invisible. well shoop doop london will see you and you will you know that the guy that owned the stall was such a dapper guy wasn't he do you remember him and he was wearing his um top hat bobby dazzler he was so bobby dazzler i absolutely loved him so honestly i would highly recommend shoop underscore doop underscore london they've got a lovely website really great fun stuff yeah good worth a look

31:28Michael Douglas: well we've done half an hour so I'm just going to drop in that tomorrow I'm recording the Man Alive podcast with Dr Jeff Foster

31:35Davina McCall: can I just say that you know that there is a stance that you can do to raise testosterone you've just done the sitting version of that stance you said Jeff Foster and you went into full raise your testosterone mode I saw you

31:52Michael Douglas: I had blood tests done last week Yeah. And then... Have you got the results yet? I've got the results. Or is he going to give them to you? I've seen them, yeah. So he sent me... I'll read out the text message. It was quite funny.

32:04Davina McCall: He's sort of trying to do for men what...

32:07Michael Douglas: What you did for women.

32:08Davina McCall: What I did for women, because men also lose testosterone. And I often think when women supplement their hormones or take hormone replacement therapy and then their men lose their hormones, they're left behind, the men because the women are like I've got my life back, I'm back on it and the guys are like I'm so tired I've lost my libido

32:32Michael Douglas: I've been a bit low recently it was probably the last year the back end of last year was very down very very low I go as far as to say the lowest I've ever felt

32:44Davina McCall: what do you think's happened

32:46Michael Douglas: it was a mixture of things going on I had some kind of emotional family stuff you know it was weighing me down a little bit um business was quite tough last year you know I was um carry shouldering a lot of responsibility we'd had a very tough year yeah you had breast

33:03Davina McCall: cancer and also my my memory was really difficult and that was very difficult I couldn't remember I couldn't remember but it was hard on you I know that the interesting thing about depression um

33:14Michael Douglas: would you say you were depressed well I'm not sure because I like to make a distinction between depression and problems that need solving. Because if you've got a complicated life with a lot of problems that need solving, that can make you feel depressed because you've got a lot to do and you know you do and that can really weigh you down. And that's what I was in, I think. Whereas depression is...

33:39Davina McCall: Sometimes a clinical thing.

33:40Michael Douglas: I should be happy and I'm not. Why not? I don't have any problems to solve, so why am I low?

33:47Davina McCall: So you didn't have that. You had problems.

33:49Michael Douglas: I had problems that needed solving. I had a lot of work to do in order to solve them.

33:53Davina McCall: Can I just say something out loud? I really admire you. Oh, thank you. I just want to tell you that. Thanks. Because it was dark.

34:03Michael Douglas: Yeah, it was. It was bloody heavy.

34:07Davina McCall: And I'm Mrs. Therapy Queen. I'm like, go talk to everybody. But you sort things out yourself with support of friends. Yeah, yeah, I do. I've got a great... And you.

34:17Michael Douglas: And you've got a very good conscience. so you've got a great internal therapist and it'll tell me what to do and I won't want to do the things it tells me to do but I know those are the things that need doing and the trick is to get your head down and get on with it

34:31Davina McCall: I've got to thank your conscience

34:33Michael Douglas: yeah you do, it's looking after you by conscience, by expense it's like look after her, don't do that but it's very good I'm trying to instil that in my own kids and our kids in a way is listen to yourself, you know, you're not an idiot. You're definitely doing that with all of our kids, I think. But anyway, Jeff, I had my bloods done, and I was like, right, I've had my bloods done, and he said, blood tests are back. I think they've sent you a copy, but I will run through it properly with you either next week or in a separate discussion. And I said, yeah, no problem. I said, am I going to live?

35:09Michael Douglas: That's all I want to know. And he said, it's touch and go. and I said that is just the way I like it then he said I'm a bit like fuck it hell no you're fine you're in good health so anyway I had a quick look and there were a lot of green blobs which are not red blobs which is a good sign but I don't understand the testosterone because that was the thing I did want to look at am I a bit low on test because I feel lethargic and a bit tired I don't feel particularly strong.

35:44Davina McCall: You're sleeping a lot.

35:45Michael Douglas: I'm getting good sleep at the moment. Aren't you? Yeah, I'm feeling rested.

35:48Davina McCall: Which is amazing because you've struggled with that ever since. You couldn't get to sleep often before midnight.

35:56Michael Douglas: You're getting much, much better than you were. Do you know what somebody once said or I saw it on Instagram? That depressed means deep rest. Isn't that good? oh that's good yeah and it's like you need rest you need rest you know i mean i can't you know

36:17Davina McCall: what you're like with me and you go you sleep a lot but i just know since my brain operation if if i'm spangly or i just can't quite kind of form it i just know half an hour shut eye just need a sleep yeah because that is when my brain can restart and function again i I wake up completely fine.

36:40Michael Douglas: Yeah, I'm all slightly terrified when I see you wake up. I'm like, fuck, she's re-energised. Boom!

36:46Davina McCall: Watch out. Brace yourself, Michael.

36:47Michael Douglas: So anyway, I'm going to do this podcast with Jeff Foster. He has a podcast called Man Alive podcast, and it's on Instagram and all of that stuff. And he interviews loads of people. He had Russell Kane on it not long ago. He had that guy, Foxy, from the SAS. And then he's got Michael Douglas, the hairdresser, on there. Can I just tell you something?

37:05Davina McCall: Michael Douglas, the hairdresser and philosopher.

37:08Michael Douglas: Yeah.

37:08Davina McCall: I think like, you know, Homer wrote a poem that's been made into a movie. What they're going to do is they're going to take these podcasts and turn them into a big movie. And in a few years, they're going to do, yes, this is what Michael said in episode three of season five of Making the Cut.

37:26Michael Douglas: Fucking day. But I'm looking forward to it. It's nice to have actually like an hour and a half with the doctor.

37:33Davina McCall: Yeah. Oh, my God. Can you imagine who gets that ever?

37:35Michael Douglas: The only price I've got to pay is they've got to film it. I'd say, you'd love to look at me bum. I've got this right itchy bum.

37:45Michael Douglas: Take a look at this chat.

37:48Davina McCall: Please do that. Please ask him. Please do that, Michael. Yeah, I will.

37:54Michael Douglas: Don't worry. I'll try and make him laugh. Okay. You know, the doctors, they have a terrible time at work. Yeah, they do. So, yeah, the Man Alive podcast, go and check that out and I'll be on that in a week or so.

38:05Davina McCall: So it's mostly, it's for men. Would women learn from it?

38:09Michael Douglas: Well, of course, because the thing that I love about my life the most is how much women have influenced me. I have been in the service of women since I was a 15-year-old boy.

38:22Davina McCall: And before that to your mum, you were so...

38:25Michael Douglas: Yeah, yeah, I was raised by my mum.

38:26Davina McCall: You know, and you cared for her as well. I did, yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful thing.

38:31Michael Douglas: And I've now married the greatest woman in the world. so all that feminine influence has turned me into a very happy person so I would have thought that women listening to men or being involved in men's stuff could have a similar reaction I know how I feel when men

38:55Davina McCall: listen to podcasts about the menopause or something I am so grateful that a man is wanting to be an ally and and to support a woman and i i love any man that does that you know you know how much i've loved you learning about the menopause for women about their hair you know that's such a gift and um so i think sometimes we kind of like it would be interesting to listen to how men feel when they are a bit low on testosterone and what that's like and what it does to you and to your confidence and how it makes you feel on the inside. We want to hear you speak about your feelings. Yeah, good.

39:36Michael Douglas: I'd like it to be kind of an antidote to Andrew Tate and HS Tiki Toki and all that bullshit. Actually, there's loads of good things about men and actually you should put them on display and talk about them a lot. So anyway, that's one of the things I'm doing with this podcast. Anyway, we're up to like 39 minutes here. We've gone way over. Let's do a few shout outs.

39:56Davina McCall: Can I just also say, you look up the shout-outs, and I'm just going to give our listeners some love.

40:01Michael Douglas: Yeah, do that.

40:03Davina McCall: We're so grateful to you, all of you. We love doing this podcast. We love bonding over our 40 minutes. Here, do you want some glasses?

40:13Michael Douglas: No, I've got some big ones. I bought these on Amazon. They were a bit of a mistake, really. Oh, I love those. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure you do. I think they're great.

40:23Davina McCall: They look really good on me.

40:25Michael Douglas: Yeah, exactly. the size of them. They're huge. Gary Brown here once again says, firstly, it's good to have you back. Secondly, thanks for the kind words about appreciating my previous recommendations. Can I recommend a range of T-shirts and hoodies? They're available at Boys Get Sad 2.

40:41Davina McCall: Oh.

40:42Michael Douglas: Yeah, no, it's quite interesting. We were just talking about this. Each item is great quality and the graphics are beautifully designed. They're intended to raise awareness and provoke conversation around suicide in the UK. And the percentage of each sale goes to the charity. Thanks, guys. And that's Gary.

40:54Davina McCall: So I've just got to tell you that there is boysgetsad2.com which is the website and actually the t-shirts are lovely they are I think that is a very strong logo yeah it's good isn't it and the hoodies and everything they look cool and the accessories are really cool they've got socks if you don't want to buy the t-shirts if that's too much they've got prints that you can put up on your wall They've got a really cool Boys Get Sad 2 beanie. Oh, yeah, great. And so actually I think this is a really brilliant idea. Boysgetsad2.com. Yeah.

41:35Michael Douglas: And then we've got another one here from Corin B. Who says, you've got to see these guys. Yeah.

41:41Davina McCall: Oh, I love these guys. Wait, pause, pause a minute. Can I just tell you, Corin, I've literally been showing everybody. yesterday I had to show somebody the Prodigy Firestarter video to explain who this woman was being. She is Keith

41:58Michael Douglas: Yes from the Prodigy

42:00Davina McCall: Watch this It's called

42:04Michael Douglas: Break Room Chronicle

42:05Davina McCall: These are dinner ladies

42:08Michael Douglas: Oh okay wow

42:10Davina McCall: She is absolutely brilliant

42:13Michael Douglas: She's got lettuce on her head And she looks like Keith from the Prodigy If you haven't seen

42:19Davina McCall: Firestarter

42:21Michael Douglas: the video.

42:22Davina McCall: Watch Firestarter the video first.

42:25Michael Douglas: The kids love these girls. Do the ladies. How good is that? I always fancied when I retire is being like a groundsman at a school where you just get all the pitches ready for football and rugby and all that stuff. It would be very calming. Children's energy and fun. It would be so much interesting. We used to have this old groundsman called Barry and I remember me mate Rifty had a ring and he weren't allowed to wear rings at school, couldn't get off his finger. So we went to Barry, he had his little gardener's hut and he hacksawed his ring off his finger, Rifty's finger, you know. So he was just like this little old guy who would help the kids out.

43:03Michael Douglas: And he'd help everybody. If you were going to get in trouble, he'd be like, come here, don't worry, I'll let you. I just think, I want this guy's job involved.

43:08Davina McCall: You know what's really sad as well is that nowadays people have an abject fear of, why do you want to work in a school? and it's so sad because the vast majority of course yeah yes there are weirdos and there are pedos but they're not all pedos and like you said I have great memories of people at school and stuff men and women who you know sometimes will keep an eye out for you I mean it is vocational being a teacher or any kind of somebody who works with kids but my god the good ones are brilliant

43:47Michael Douglas: That's it for this week, folks. Have a lovely weekend.

43:50Davina McCall: And thank you for listening. We really love you.

43:52Michael Douglas: Yeah, we'll love it. And we'll speak to you next week.

43:54Davina McCall: Michael, I love you too. Brr!

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