Social media consultant Rachel Karten on the death of the follower, micro-dramas, and being “algorithmically ungovernable”

0:11Max:Welcome back to Mixed Signals. I'm Ben Smith, the Editor-in-Chief of Semaphore, here with Max Taney, our media editor. And this week we're joined by one of the really great thinkers about social media right now, Rachel Carton, a former professional social media editor back when that was a title at places like Bon Appetit, who's now one of the leading consultants in the space, I should say, full disclosure, including occasionally two semaphore. And Rachel now specializes in helping media companies and particularly brands figure out how to get through in a social media space that has just changed radically from the old ancient days when you were trying to reach people on Facebook or when you could just pay a creator to talk directly to their followers.

0:52Max:She now lives in a world of micro dramas and a vast gray area around what exactly is marketing, what do you need to disclose, stuff she spends a lot of time thinking and writing about in her great newsletter, which is called Lincoln Bio. So we're looking forward to asking her about what social media is now, about how marketing in particular works in that space, and about whether we're ever going to be free of the reign of the algorithms. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Max and Rachel.

1:49Max:Thank you. There's never been a more exciting time to be in marketing. That is why we've started a new podcast, Frontier CMO. It's from Think with Google, and I promise it's not just a bunch of corporate waffle. I'm sitting down with people who really know what's going on. CMOs, creators, technologists, the lot. And we're having a proper, unfiltered chat about what's working, and quite frankly, what isn't. These are your notes from the Frontier. So do me a favor, search for Frontier CMO wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us and subscribe on YouTube.

2:36Max:So Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. And you are one of those people who used to have the job title of social media editor at some point in your life. You're now America's leading social media consultant, I believe including DeSemaphore at one point. So I was hoping that you could kind of answer the first sort of big picture question for us, which is just, what is social media? What is social media? Welcome to my life. Social media isn't social anymore. I would say that social media is entertainment media at this point. I think that really sort of broke through for me when I heard Adam Mosseri say that the social and social media now comes from DMing your friends something that reminds you of them when it used to be that friend maybe posting that they made dinner.

3:20And so that would be how you're connecting. And so I think we've seen social media drop the social. Yeah, I mean, Adam was on our podcast and said something similar at the end of last year that I think really changed kind of how we thought about that. I mean, is this all just kind of attributable to TikTok, basically? Because it seems to me like essentially what Instagram did was see the success of TikTok and, you know, basically not needing to value followers as much anymore replicated on their own platform. YouTube is doing something similar. Is this all basically TikTok's fault? Yeah, I think the For You page and sort of the like supercharged algorithm that said, cool, we know that you followed these people because you wanted to see them more, but we think we know what you want to see better than you know yourself was a statement that I think a lot of social media companies felt inspired by.

4:12Max:Yeah. Was there a moment that you like, that you kind of felt like you noticed that in your work, in your life, that something had really changed? I think from a consulting perspective, you had brands that have built followings over years and spent a lot of time growing that. And I would see a brand that has 3 million followers getting 200 likes and what is going on here because there was sort of that agreement that I think we all had with social media where it was like, if you grow your following, then you grow your engagement. And then you sort of saw this huge cliff happen. And so I think that was, you know, in my own work, a moment where I was like, uh-oh, what's happening here?

4:50Rachel, who's happy about this change? Because I think for a lot of people, I mean, I thought about this for a little bit when Elon first took over Twitter and kind of was tweaking the algorithm and changing it and trying to make it essentially more like the algorithmic feeds of TikTok and I guess now of Instagram, shoving people like the menswear guy into my feed. And it kind of, it made the engagement on my own account kind of wonky and weird. It's actually worked out really, really well. I kind of like it these days. But at the time, I found it to be very upsetting. Is there anybody who's really happy about this kind of move away from the value of putting stuff in front of your own followers to the value of, you know, showing your content to people who don't follow you?

5:32Well, the platforms, I would say, are obviously happy. I think the engagement is quite well. Besides the platforms, yeah. But I would say the one thing that I think is, you know, to write my newsletter, I need to stay optimistic and find sort of an optimistic way in. And what I think about is the small business who has 200 followers could make a really, really strong piece of content now and have it get a million views. Whereas before you were sort of gatekept by how many followers you had. So I think there is that piece of it where if you are making quality videos right now, you can break through in today's algorithm in a way that when it was based off followers, you simply could not.

6:11Max:But there are just no permanent gains. Like you break through today and then tomorrow you start it, you sort of wake up in the morning and it's starting from zero. I watched a video from this creator, Bran Flakes, where he had this conversation with a TikTok rep and he was sharing it to his followers. And TikTok calls it, if your account doesn't have a niche or sort of a show that you are repeating, all of your videos start with a cold start is what TikTok called it. And so you're starting from scratch. They don't know the initial audience to show it to. even you know brand flakes has 1.4 million followers i believe does not matter they're not going to show it to them they're trying to show it to a group of people who might be interested in it and if you don't have that sort of niche or format that you do then you have a cold start which i thought is a very brutal sort of like yeah like phrase to call it i guess i would think that this would be a fundamental threat to a lot of creators right who uh for a long time the contract was work super hard, build up your own following, and then you can have an amazing business.

7:15You can have your own media company, whatever it might be. But now, basically, all of that effort is kind of meaningless. And if you're starting from scratch kind of every day, why would you agree to continue to create content on those platforms, I guess? I guess I wouldn't say it's starting from scratch every time. I think a lot of creators have what I would say piloted a bunch of formats. They find one that does really well and they repeat it over and over again. If you think of some of your favorite creators, they are likely doing that. And so once you find that momentum, I think that you can have a very nice life as an influencer or a creator and the brand deals will still roll in because a lot of brands still do look at the follower count, even though maybe it's not the best metric to look at anymore.

7:58Max:Yeah, I guess that's, I mean, you know, we talked to Kareem Rama last week and And Subway takes is like the classic format. It is. It's funny because I think one of the axes in a way that you're talking about is professionalization. And I remember when I was at BuzzFeed, one of the things Jonah Peretti, the founder there, was obsessed with, was just the way in which every media begins as amateur and becomes professional. And it had been true of blogging, like in some sense Max and I are bloggers gone pro. So reading your newsletter over the last several months, like it strikes me that a lot of what you're writing about is a kind of professionalization of every aspect of what was formerly known as social media.

8:34Max:And I was so struck that you wrote recently about the emergence of the job description of showrunner, which is like, you know, the very fanciest Hollywood job description. Like if you're a really successful TV writer, you get to call yourself that is now a job for doing. What is it actually? Can you explain? Essentially, right now we're seeing that brands are creating shows. If I think about the magazine InStyle, they have a show called The Intern, which has been super popular for them. There's a writer's room. They are treating it like a television show that is distributed on social media. Built, which is that rent credit card company.

9:11I'm still not exactly sure what they do, but they have a show called Roomies that is about to start season three, gets millions of views. And people who are working on those shows have showrunner in their Instagram bios as the showrunner for those shows. I don't necessarily think it's some widespread trend right now, but just in this world where brands are realizing they need to be a little more entertaining on social media, I see them sort of borrowing those Hollywood titles.

9:39Max:This isn't like a threat to Shonda Rhimes right now. I don't think so. One of the hallmarks when I was reading this as well, and I thought that was this was such a fun thing that you wrote for your for your newsletter recently. And everybody who's listening to this podcast should go and read it. One point was really interesting, which was all of these shows have to start from the assumption that the video that's coming onto their feed, even though it might be like the 700th episode of the show might be the first one that someone is encountering kind of algorithmically. Can you kind of explain a little bit more about that, tease that out, and share how that's shaping what these shows look like?

10:15The way that the algorithm works right now is that whether a non-follower would find that piece of content interesting way more than if a follower could find that piece of content interesting. And so you need to be posting with that in mind that they're going to show it to this test group of non-followers, and they need to be as invested as if they've watched 20 episodes or just 20 pieces of content from your brand before. And so I think I was saying that, you know, in a traditional television show, you sort of have the last time on, right? Like to remind you of what happened. And for a social show, you're creating these two to three minute episodes, but they need to be able to live on their own, but still feel within the world of the previous episodes that somebody has watched.

10:58It's a complicated task. And I don't think, I think a lot of brands start a show thinking that that's some magic trick. And no, the show still needs to be really interesting and good and catch people at whatever part of the series is. And they're going to comment and say, I'm going back to episode one and I'm going to binge the entire thing, which you see a lot of comments like that right now. I guess the thing that I'm kind of curious about is what is the difference between what you're talking about and, and micro dramas or are these micro dramas essentially? There is no difference in my mind.

11:28I think that they are television shows cut up into two to three minute episodes that can stand alone. And whether that is in style showing their office and bringing in influencers and kind of creating a funny narrative around that, or I haven't watched a lot of micro dramas, whatever the most popular micro drama is, it's a similar concept. concept. There are certain things that shows will do to immediately within the first one or two seconds, you know, basically remind people of the show. There was something that you had mentioned about, you know, a brand that had incorporated their owl into the first few seconds of the show.

12:04I think, you know, we were just talking about Subway Takes. Subway Takes begins exactly the same every time with the shot of Kareem, the same line, essentially. So, you know, like your brain just automatically knows that you're watching Subway Takes. Explain a little bit more about what that looks like. Am I describing it the right way? I think that's fair. I mean, I think like a hook, right? The hook is really important of a video. And I think for shows, familiarity is the hook. And I interviewed the head of social for MLB, and he had a great quote that I repeat all the time. That is that we don't have a short attention span.

12:36We have a short consideration span. And if you're picturing yourself scrolling, it takes you, you're not thinking that hard if you're going to watch something. You're like, duh, duh, duh. And when you see something like Kareem sitting down in the subway, I immediately stop and I'm going to watch the entire thing. But it takes a familiar sort of thing for me to want to stop and actually watch something. And so I think the benefit of a show or creator or character is that you're seeing that owl. I think I was probably referring to Duolingo at the time. You're seeing a character that you enjoy watching and that's what's going to stop to make you watch.

13:09And you'll actually watch the full two to three minutes of it. I guess that shouldn't say that you have a long or you don't have a short attention span, two to three minutes isn't that long, but it's still in the world of social media means something.

13:20Max:You were recently about a show called Life 100. How does that kind of fit into this observation? Yeah. So Life 100 features Susan and Sandra, two women who are probably in their 70s or 80s, and they're giving life advice. And each episode is a different piece of advice about confidence or some sort of theme. And I think that comes into play of where each episode can stand alone because it's about a different topic. But you see Susan, you see Sandra, and you're like, oh, I know who they are. And so you're having these sort of media companies create shows just for entertainment right now. And so that's actually Susan's grandson who is making the show, which is very sweet.

14:02But he also has a short form content studio where he's making shows for brands and other creators.

14:08Max:A lot of your work is in marketing, in the marketing industries. A lot of what we're talking about now, like if built and, you know, Anchor was actually on our other show, Compound Interest, recently. Super interesting credit card companies, you say. They're making a show about roommates, apparently. You tell me. It's not hit my feed. Susan and Sandra are making a show. Like, how do you figure out and how should a viewer figure out what is marketing? What is editorial? It's a good question. I think about like a now this, which has essentially become a short form show factory. And they do have a watermark on all of their shows.

14:42I think that there are responsible ways. And I think there these media companies, whether you're a brand media company, you have a responsibility to disclose that, hey, this person is cast. And this is not a creator who is solo making these episodes. we there's a media company behind them and i think there's sort of a responsibility to disclose that especially on the brand side with something like a roomies they have in their bio like powered by built and i think you should be sort of letting people know that they're watching branded entertainment and i think what's tough is because every marketer is going to hear me say that and say like that's why it won't work but i think that marketers were living in a very odd time i think Like the FTC doesn't do its job when it comes to disclosure or some of the stuff that's happening on social media right now.

15:34And so it comes down to the ethics of the marketer themselves.

15:37Max:Just to slow down, because I think I don't really even really understand it. What is the Federal Trade Commission's job here? Like what are the rules supposed to be? The rules should be that, you know, we're seeing these brands create these sub-accounts or shows and not disclose that they are behind them. They're putting their product in them. They are talking about their product. And there's nowhere when you go to the page that would say, we're behind this, or there's nowhere on the video that says this is actually brought to you by X brand. And so you can get away with that for as long as you can.

16:07And right now, I think a lot of brands are sort of like, hoping for the best. But I think that with so much skepticism online right now between these sort of like astroturfing campaigns and AI, I think that brands have a responsibility to not contribute to that sort of confusion that people have when they're scrolling. Is the problem because the FTC, this is just such a widespread issue and just so much of this is going on that it's like almost impossible for the FTC to regulate it because so many different companies and brands are basically kind of bypassing the rules? I think that's a piece of it.

16:43I think that it doesn't take mass sort of dealing with it to scare marketers, though. I think about using commercial music. A lot of brands were very willy-nilly, putting in commercial music to TikToks, doing the trends. You get one lawsuit from UMG. Every brand sees that and goes, we're not using commercial music anymore because we don't want to get sued either. So I don't think it takes like every single thing. I think it takes a case where it scares a lot of brands into trying to get away with it.

17:15Max:Do you find that like the big kind of blue chip marketing organizations, the PepsiCo's of the world are more careful or is everybody kind of equally, as you say, kind of willy nilly about it? They are definitely more careful. And I think that you can look to some of those big brands and see lower social engagement and attribute that to being more careful from an FTC or legal standpoint. But I don't think that's a fair, totally fair assessment. Going back to the show's question for a minute, I'm curious, do you get the sense from talking to people. You survey your readers a lot. I'm curious, do you get the sense that anyone meaningfully distinguishes between shows that are made by brands versus shows that are made by media companies versus shows that are made maybe even just by, you know, a few teens and or, you know, 20 somethings in in Bushwick or whatever?

18:07Like, does anybody anybody really distinguish between these things? But besides kind of us in the media who like to pay attention to it? I think that people feel disappointed maybe when they find out their favorite show is from a brand. I'll see comments like, this is just marketing for this brand. And so I do think, again, people don't like to feel confused on the internet. And so I think if you're upfront about it, it's okay. But I do think a consumer cares whether it's a creator and three friends making a really funny show versus a creator and three friends making a show that Amazon put their money behind.

18:41Max:Do you think, I mean, my experience of this is that ultimately, like, the money wins and the professionals win because, you know, Amazon's going to find the best three guys in Bushwick or three women in Bushwick and hire them. And in fact, the best creators are looking to make a living at it and the brands and the companies will find them. And so there's this kind of, like, inevitable professionalization. Inevitably, you're going to be dealing with a kind of totally professionalized, you know, Hollywood-style medium. Do you think that is true in this space or will this short video space kind of resist that and kind of keep that kind of remnant social quality?

19:16I think that I can split my brain in two parts here. The marketer in me is like, hell yeah, work with these people. They know how to tell stories online. And then the other part of me that enjoys a show like errands, which is so funny and you should watch it. And if it sold out to a brand, I'd feel disappointed a little bit. And so I struggle with the two sides of my brain in that situation. You see a lot of examples of this kind of stuff in the space. What do you think makes one of these shows actually good? Like qualitatively good? Like, oh my God, I want to watch this again. I think the way that algorithms work right now, it's easy to game them.

19:55Anybody can get views right now. And I think that when I think about the shows that work, it trusts that their audience is smart, that they're going to pick up on things, that they're going to build inside jokes. I think Aaron's is a great example of that, right? Where you kind of feel like it's not big enough that you feel like everyone has seen it and you feel a little bit cool that you're somebody who watches Aaron's and you can send it to a friend and there's a little bit of currency to that. And I think you also remember it and you're not, these shows aren't trying to like mine your attention.

20:24You feel like you walk away, oh, I thought about that or I remember that from last episode. And so memorability right now is something that I'm thinking about with social media because I feel like so much of it is you don't remember what you scrolled past two videos ago. And so how do you get people to actually remember things? And I think Aaron's does a good job, I would say, is because it's slower and it feels almost anti-algorithm. Like you're watching and you're like, this shouldn't work. And I think that feels good as a viewer when everything is so loud around it. How is the rise of shows impacting kind of the previous generation of influencers?

20:59Like, are there people who were essentially influencers before who are feeling pressured to make shows because this is something that algorithmically Instagram is and TikTok and to a certain degree YouTube are interested in? When you think about the influencers of the past, it was that contract of I grow my followers and now I'm owed attention. And so I'm going to sell a brand on a post and my followers will see it and that's what the brand is paying for. Whereas now, especially like on the brand side, I'm more interested in like who can tell a really funny story on social media. I don't necessarily care if they have quote unquote influence for a social post because I want somebody who I have a format that I can integrate myself in.

21:42I think about like the Brooklyn coffee shop. I don't know if you've seen their videos, but like I watch every single one of their videos, every single one of their ads does well because you, again, you have that like familiarity of it's the same format. Whereas I think a influencer just getting on and saying, Hey guys, I tried this new tea. You're going to love it. It's not entertaining. It's not fun to watch. Yeah. It's so funny how that feels, that feels so dated. Like it, it really does, but, you know, as you're, as you're doing it and that's the kind of thing that I had in my mind, I'm like, this is making me feel like a, you know, chopped, washed unk, uh, for, you know, So associating that so strongly with social media up until like, you know, a few months ago, I guess.

22:23Max:It's also a real power shift, right? Like suddenly like the platforms, so the power swings back to the platforms away from the influencers and media companies. And in a way, like the best you can do is be a kind of an agency business, right? Like hawking your clever ads to brands and you're a creative agency. Ben, don't you think though that actually this actually kind of empowers media companies? Because media companies traditionally are good at making shows. They know how to make shows. Like, that's what we've, you know, we were much better at that than, you know, the, hey, guys, check out this, you know, whatever.

22:54Or like some guy explains the news to you on TikTok. Like a few people did that, but it just broadly wasn't a strategy. I would just say that I would imagine InStyle is having some very good conversations with advertisers about that series. And that's always a conversation in media companies is like, okay, you have this big social presence. How do we get advertisers involved? And so they built a recurring format that people watch. They just did an ad for Crocs that was branded within the show that got over a million views. That doesn't happen, you know, when the sales team goes out and sells a social post for a magazine.

23:31Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Rachel Carton, but we have to take a short break. So we'll be right back after this.

23:43Max:This week on our branded segment from Think with Google, I talked to Google's VP of Marketing, Josh Spanier, about whether most marketers are bad at their jobs. Josh, you recently published a newsletter with a subject line that raised a lot of eyebrows. I believe it was, most marketers suck at marketing. Do you? That's a provocative, some might say insulting approach, but you backed it up with a statistic from Ipsos that said that 70 % of marketers fail a basic test of marketing fundamentals. Are folks in this industry that bad at their jobs? The truth hurts, Ben. I did write that. Although to be fair, I was actually channeling Mark Ritson, a guest on my Frontier CMO podcast and famously a bit of a curmudgeon about the marketing industry.