Actor Adrian Lester - Choirboy to CBE

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's happening people? My name is Mo Gilligan and this is the Beginning, Middle and End podcast. Now this is where I'm going to be asking some of my favourite people about how they started, where they are now and the legacy they want to leave. Now, what a treat of a guest that I have for you lovely people today. We have a CBE recipient who went on from being a choir boy in the church from Birmingham to one of the UK's most acclaimed, respected actors. Now, whether it's mastering Shakespeare, heading up iconic TV series like Hustle or US series, his work is widely respected and admired. Speaking on his much awaited RSC debut and up and coming series Ponies, it's a national treasure.

0:48Mo Gilligan: please welcome to the podcast my good friend adrian lester thanks for doing the podcast i remember the last time we've seen each other was it was on my show on channel 4 yourself i think who else was on that show that day we had aj doodoo yeah sam rider on the show as well and we're doing your nunchucks and stuff as well yes did we was that in the final i don't think it was in the final edit you know i don't think we made it it wasn't into the final edit because you know what used to be interesting when we'd done the show we we'd cram in so much and by the time in the edit the editor would be like we've probably got too much so we need to we're going to keep this we're going to take that out and i was just like oh if only it was the days of doing shows in the 2000s where you have your extra show do you remember those you have one show and your extra whereas now like it all kind of goes on youtube i just feel like it gets a bit lost oh So, yeah, YouTube's crammy.

1:41Mo Gilligan: It's just like, it's there for a weekend and this is there forever. Yeah, it's gone. I heard the YouTube figures for YouTube now passed the streaming services. Oh, wow. So Terrestrial got left behind, then it was streaming services, and now YouTube just pipped them in terms of viewing figures. It makes sense, though. Which is weird. Because, you know, like with YouTube, and I was saying this to another guest recently, where I would just put something on when I'm cooking. And I'm not really watching it, but I'm listening to it. That's the thing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like even music now, my playlists, the playlist on YouTube.

2:19Mo Gilligan: Listen, man, if you want an old school Motown playlist, you can find it on YouTube. Whereas, you know, if you have your streaming apps, you know, you've got the track and the next track. I like to do that. Maybe I'm in control. I like to just lay it all up and I go, oh yeah, I can sing along to this. I know this. I remember those memories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I do it via Apple or something else. but when we're creating content for the screen, you can sometimes get asked to second screen it, which means you have to add less subtlety and you have to repeat things in the program. So repeat the plot, repeat the danger, have characters state what they want because people are second screening it as in their primary screen is in their hand and they're just flicking up and looking at the stuff you've made, which is such a shame.

3:02Mo Gilligan: I know. I'm definitely a second screener. the amount of times I'll watch something and I've got another screen in my hand where, but it's, it's normally with, with programs that I don't have the real attention span for. I'm guilty of watching some trash TV, some reality TV and I'll watch it, but I'm really checking out maybe some holidays and I'm looking, I'm like, uh, and I'm in and I'm out, but it's dangerous, man. Cause you can watch something and before you know it, you're like, okay, cool. I'm just, just booked the holiday not not really not really focusing on how much this really is but um do you know what i mean it's very dangerous so that and that the adverts and content and people selling you things it's constructed in a way that they think you're only going to read the headline and not actually look at the quality of the material underneath so there's loads of filmmakers learning about cuts and and edits and you know slowing down whatever the effect they want to do and And they're thinking of people who are committed in the dark, focused only on your material.

4:07So you can really move people or make them think or show them something new. But then when you get asked to second screen it, it's just like, no, we don't want any of that. We don't want people to have to really think. We just want them to be able to just flick up and go, oh, and laugh or whatever.

4:20Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it affects the whole form. Yeah. I didn't know you was a Brummie boy. I didn't know you're from Birmingham. Because you've lost your accent, man. You lost your Brummie accent, man. this is the thing I don't think now it came out just there you know the rummy accent it came out but it's it's because I can hear I can hear my rummy accent anyway and it's not as strong as my family who still live there but a lot of people think they're going to hear black country they think they're going to hear like that it's going to be like this but people don't talk like that in the centre of Birmingham yeah yeah no they don't their accent is not strong at all it's flatter plus whenever I went home from school I didn't hear the Birmingham accent I'm not like the kids who would go home and hear it from their parents and their grandparents.

5:04Nah. I only heard it at school or with my associated friends. So it's not like, do you know what I mean?

5:10Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And you, because you was in your church choir as well. St. Chad's Cathedral. Was that where you got your first love for wanting to perform? Because the reason why I asked, because I go to church and when I go to church, one thing I love is when I see the young kids at church. and normally at the end of church they all kind of like get up and start dancing to like some of the tracks and some of the songs and you know i look at the people in a band who perform and it's interesting with faith because it doesn't i guess it's like it's just like i go to church and i play the drum kit and i i'm in the band but it's kind of my religion and i enjoy doing it as opposed to when you do it when it's not faith-based.

5:55Mo Gilligan: It's just, I just, you know, I like performing, I like acting, but it's got nothing to do with my faith. It's just what I like to do. So was that your first like, kind of entry point into that performing? Yeah, I was brought up Roman Catholic. So, you know, baptized and confirmed and all of that, and church on Sundays anyway. And then I was singing, and then St. Chad's Cathedral were looking for new probationers, new treble voices. I must have been about nine, ten. And so I sang for them about ten. I sang for them about ten. And then I got in, and I found my Sundays standing in the pews and singing Mozart and Haydn and Bruckner and, you know, all of it.

6:51And it really, because I loved the sound and those harmonies for the choral sound in there, it's magical. But I remember one distinct memory I have is of being on the front steps of the altar and we were gathered there and we're going to sing. and I think it was Lottie's Cruci Fixus. It's a piece where the four-part choir is split into eight parts. I remember just standing there and singing this piece, which is beautiful, and seeing tears in the eyes of the congregation. But we weren't crying. We were just singing. They were crying, listening to it. And I keep repeating this, but it really was the point where I thought there's something happening in the distance between what I'm doing and what they're hearing that's making them cry.

7:43And that really...

7:45Mo Gilligan: How's that... How's that work? Yeah. And then I saw it with films and I saw it with paintings and I thought, how do they do that thing that... So film is basically moving shadows and noise. That's all it is really. And there's 12 notes in the scale. There's 12 notes. but what we can do with it if you have the skill you can make people dance you can make them sing you can make them cry you can make them think you can make i just thought this was a fantastic thing and i wanted to get into it um and i was thinking about whether i was going to be a dancer or whether i was going to be a singer and in the end it settled down into acting because i knew that i had a greater longevity and i was only interested in sort of like the classical forms because it seemed to me that the non-classical forms at that time were much more about passing a moment and entertaining you for passing that moment.

8:40But the classical forms were like, you can do this again and again, and then different people can come and they can do it again and again and again and again. And it will still speak. It will still say stuff.

8:49Mo Gilligan: That interested me. How did your mum take to it in terms of you wanting to pursue a career of, you know, acting at a young age? Because I know you was in Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat. in your primary school production. So like, and I guess that's probably, you know, looking at what you do now, but that's your entry point. Like your mum would have been probably quite pleased if that was the way in, because it still kind of goes back to church and the faith in some ways. Yeah, it did in some way. And I think that by the time I was going to, spending every summer at Midlands Arts Centre, just down there, dancing, acting, doing whatever the workshops were.

9:35And I think when she came to see a play that I was in and then saw that I was doing in the summers, I started doing walk-on work for Central Television in Birmingham. And so I didn't need summer pocket money because actually I was earning enough during that period to sometimes I'd be like, you know what, I can take care of this. And it became a kind of, not only do you enjoy it, you're serious about it, you spend a lot of time doing it. But also, it's obvious that reviewers have said, oh, you know, this kid's kind of good. And I was beginning to... I could buy my trainers, I could do... It became a kind of...

10:11I don't have to approve, I just have to stand back and make sure this continues along the correct path. And then by the time I was auditioning for drama school, then I got into drama school. In those days, thank God, you could get a grant. But it took something like 12 or 13 weeks for my grant to come through. So for that 12 or 13 weeks, my mom just wrote a check and, you know, pay. And it's hard, but she paid for me to, for food and, you know, the roof over my head and stuff.

10:38Mo Gilligan: Because your mom's from Jamaica as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. And because I know, you know, in terms of parents that come from, you know, Jamaica or like, I've got a lot of friends that are like West African and to go into the arts is always a techie conversation. because I feel like we have parents and grandparents who came over here for a better life and I guess they want us to have the jobs of being doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and then telling them, you're like, well, I'm going to do this thing. And you're like, what? What do you mean you're going to do that thing? How does that pay?

11:17Mo Gilligan: So it must have been quite fulfilling, I guess, for your mum to see the proof in the pudding sorry, the proof in the pudding quite early for your career to see you making a living. And you said you don't like walk on work as well, right? Yeah. What was that like? It was good. I got used a lot for Central Television because they didn't have somebody who was 16, 17 years old with an equity card. Oh, wow. So black teenagers in Birmingham with an equity card who could go and do walk on work was few and far between. And one of the producers just said, I would love nothing more than to actually make it look like the public, but we have to use equity card holders.

11:57And a lot of those people at that time in the city seemed to be people who were 40 plus and white, actors who'd go and trained and all that. And so they couldn't actually find... So when I was like, yeah, I'm here, they were like, get in here. So I did the Crossroads and then the next week I would do some other thing and then I'd go up, maybe travel slightly outside of Birmingham to walk on work or something else. and then I so I you know my pocket money was taken care of it was good

12:24Mo Gilligan: because I remember when I I never went to drama school I'd done drama at a university and I remember a teacher saying to us it was like you know she's like if you want to be a serious actor don't be doing extra work or walk on work because you won't get taken seriously and it always stuck with me but at the same time it's like well I need I need an in somewhere do you know what I mean so it's interesting to hear that from you and that was like your route in in some ways because I guess when you're starting off in any industry you're like okay I want to be taken seriously not to do that do you know what I mean yeah but it was nice to go to drama school already already having been on a stage of the theater a lot with the youth with the youth theater but also I'd been on a film set tv set I knew how it worked and you were the lights and everything I was kind of used to it So I went to drama school with that knowledge.

13:20Mo Gilligan: What drama school did you go to? Did you go to RADA? I went to RADA, yeah. That's one of the top tier ones, man. Yeah. That one's top tier, you know. That one's up there with the others in that. So I went to university, right? And I remember meeting actors who went to Central RADA. I think it's Lambda as well. Lambda, Guildhall. Yeah, yeah. And my God, boy. So where do you study? I'm like, I'm doing university. Oh my God, the way they look down on me. That's not the drama schools. Those are just the idiots that you... Yeah, I was like, right boy. I think I always do have a regret though, of not ever going to drama school because I feel like once you understand the training that you get, like for me, once I understood it, I was like, ah, I see why this institution exists.

14:16Mo Gilligan: And you need to go there to get to that next level, if that makes sense. Because the training is intense. And I didn't understand it until I'd met friends that had gone there and they'd tell you that, yeah, it's very intense. Even the audition process. What did you do for your audition process? Because I know you have to do a classical on the contemporary, right? I did Angelo from Measure for Measure. I did a speech from Hamlet. They said, don't do Hamlet, because everyone does Hamlet. Yeah, I've heard this, yeah. So I thought, well, if everyone's doing Hamlet, and they say don't do it, that means no one's going to be doing Hamlet.

14:59So I did Hamlet.

15:01Mo Gilligan: Okay. Because I thought in a room in a year or three, you know, like that year when you're auditioning for the class, you've told no everyone don't do hamlet all these people want to get into drama school they're not going to do hamlet so i thought i'll just do hamlet that's quite a big risk man it is a risk yeah but i also had angelo to follow up okay and um i had a piece from a play called dead men by mike stott about uh the end of the russian revolution a speech by a revolutionary and um Then I had a song and that was it really. So you moved to London and you go to RADA. It's like 1986, 87, right?

15:42Mo Gilligan: 86, yeah. So what was it like going from Birmingham then to London? Because when you're in drama school, and I know there's a lot of people that they go from one place and then they're all in London where London is, you know, they always say, if you want to be successful in this thing, you know, especially at drama school, you want to be in London. how impactful was that move for you at that time in drama school and coming to London from Brom? Because sometimes I feel like London and Birmingham, it's like we kind of had this weird love-hate relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like we both think we're a better than each other for no reason.

16:19For no reason. No reason at all. I tell you, I love going home though, you know. I love going home to Birmingham because it's got everything that London's got, but not as much of it. And it's a much more sort of diverse sort of city. You go to any area, you'll see much more of a mix of all sorts of people. But coming to London for me at that time, you know, it was student leaving home at 18 and going off to study. So I slept on a sofa for the first eight nine weeks and then um my dad who was living in london at the time um he then found me a room uh in a house and then i got a little uh um that progressed to another room in somebody else's house then i you know and it just moved on from there but i went from sofa to tiny room to slightly bigger rooms i just did the whole did you have a part-time job thing um in the so i was a waiter at one point came back to birmingham and i was a waiter in brannigan's on broad street um which was good i loved i loved waiting tables you know yeah i really liked it as that sort of entertaining service thing and then um and i was for one for two weeks i was a a cleaner in an old people's home in london to get some money how important is those

17:42Mo Gilligan: jobs though when you're a young actor because you know i've seen things in the past where you know someone can be in a huge production you know and they've obviously they're well established in the industry and they have to have a part-time job um and everyone has the i think there's there's like this illusion that it's like but you can't you're on television how can you go back to doing this do you know what i mean um but i think those those jobs early on even before my comedy career took off. I worked in retail. Retail was my thing. Because I get what you're saying with being a waiter, because it feels like you're kind of still performing.

18:19Mo Gilligan: There's a bit. Yeah, there's a bit. The one line is the improvisation. And then they tell you the lines, the food they want. You go away remembering your lines. And you get it back into it. Now they want it hot. They want that with a bit more sugar. And you come back and you can repeat it back to them. What people loved, I found, was like, can I have a vodka? but can I have it with orange juice? And can you just make it and can I have something on the side? And when I brought it back to them, I'd say, that's vodka with a bit of orange juice. It's got the thing on the side just as you like it. Okay, there you go.

18:47And they just love the fact that you remembered, you know, and that was the recall and stuff. I loved it.

18:53Mo Gilligan: It was nice. So for retail, did you use the comedy? Same thing. Well, I think for me with retail, it was, because I worked in really nice places early on. So I've spoke about it a few times. I worked in Joe Malone. I didn't really know much about the Brando when I first worked there. so for me working there it was the scents and the smells and i was almost a character you know people coming in and be like so um what is this this is or is this is this orange blossom and i was like yes man this is orange blossom but with joe malone do this thing called fragrance combining right so then this is where you're really acted now because you're like what would you fragrance combine so if you want to get a bit 154 spray it on there and then i was like cool and then they cement and go wow can you get the hint of the blossom but then you're getting the one five four the deep notes of cj see i'm about to go there now man you just did it on me that's it i'm going joe malone after this i i i think people really forget of like when you are within whatever arts you're in you know for me it was like at that time still at uni and i'm i'm learning to do uh i was doing theater production and performing arts but comedy was the thing that at that time i was like really like this comedy thing.

20:05Mo Gilligan: But it was so important to have that. One, you know, you have a job that helps you pay, but it's weird. Like you're, you are acting, but you're not. Do you know what I mean? Like you having to, like I had to code switch. I've got guys coming in and they're like, bro, what's this shop, bro? And I'm like, okay, this isn't, this isn't the Orange Blossom customer. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, what are you saying? Hang on 1549. It's a nice one. Bro, that one's cut. That one's nice. I like that one still. How much is this? I'm like, There's a dial. There's a dial. It's so quick how you have to switch it on and you have the rude customer, the nice customer.

20:40Mo Gilligan: But it's like you are acting. And I think you can always understand why anyone who is an actor, why they have a part-time job as a waiter or especially things with people. I feel like it still makes you, you're still switched on, even though it's your job, if that makes sense. Yeah, and providing a service. It's like when we went through COVID, certain things, people could, you know, quit or go on strike and we'd go, hmm. But there are certain services we overlook all the time that interface directly with the public or help the public care in certain ways. When they went on strike or when they stopped, we all felt it.

21:18We all went, what way? We need that. We need that thing that we keep overlooking. Yeah, we need that. And when you're, you can't provide a service, entertain the public if you don't interface with the public in some way. It's, it's a good, it's a good level. It's good to just, it's good to have that experience, to understand no matter what I do as an actor. If I'm doing something on stage and I bump into somebody afterwards on the street the next day or, or somebody waits at stage door or whatever. um my job is to provide that area of relief for someone who has a real job so the the firefighter's gonna clock off work and it's like birthday we're going out we're gonna have a meal and we're going to see that thing yeah we're gonna go see mo so you've got a room full of people for whom you are the added bonus at the end of a long hard day when they're dealing with all sorts of problems all sorts of things they want to be taken away and told a story and i i take that seriously because i think do your job right don't make it another excuse for people to pay and just get to

22:25Mo Gilligan: look at you again look people are looking at me and they've liked me on my thing and i don't care that's why i find i find the social media thing quite difficult i find it difficult people have told told me on occasion you've got to do it you've got to do more you're going to do this And I don't, I respect the fact that some people will have done a lot in their day and then they will come and all I have to do is say, look, here's the story. Here's the laugh. Enjoy yourself. How important is the stage to you as an actor? Because I have such admiration for like the stage theatre. You know, I love what, don't get me wrong, I love sitting down watching a film.

23:10Mo Gilligan: but there is something that i find so fascinating about watching actors on stage that i sit there and i'm just like one i sit down like oh my god practice all those lines that's a lot of lines especially someone where you know i do stand up and someone can look at my job as like this is crazy you're making i could never do i could never do your job but the stage is like i'm so in awe of it because sometimes it blows my mind where i'm like the matinee shows where i'm like hold on you you got a show in the afternoon and one in the evening and i still sit there i'm like especially if i've seen a show in the evening i was like oh my god they probably had another one in the afternoon that was the second one must be so tired like because i guess that what i mean by is as a comedian i am a heightened version of myself but i am really being myself people pay to be like i want you to make me laugh but be yourself making me laugh whereas you know even sometimes i'll sit there and i'm like okay they're on stage and below them there is an orchestra playing the music but i can't even see them like then then when it comes to theater production how the the sets can move and then you lot will go back and even the microphones the ones that are there yeah you guys got those ones there yeah and i sit there and for you know for me and my job it's like okay the microphone needs the one thing always i need is just microphone and lights that's it i can make the show work but the fact that that if that microphone goes out actors will have to say okay cool i can't i can say like i can be on stage as a comic could be like mic's off tech will come in i can make a joke about it but as an actor it's like cool from the diaphragm, go back to the drawing board, mic's off.

25:05Mo Gilligan: It's so amazing what you do. So how important is the stage to you? It's the one place we don't have to fear AI. Because if you're in the room and there's a stage there and it cuts out the wheat from the chaff, you know what I mean? If you can't do it, if you can't do it, I don't care if I stick you on screen and we can take it again and take it again and go different angles and you look kind of good. And you know, you've been to the gym and you've drunk nothing but water. I don't care. Because if I put you on stage and you cannot do, you ain't got the muscles to make the audience believe that even though they're sat in a big room surrounded by strangers and you're pretending to be somebody else.

25:46Mo Gilligan: If you can't leap over all those barriers and still make them believe the story, then you're not cutting the mustard. Do you know what I mean? like I've seen I've seen you get thrown by somebody in the room and get taken off story and somebody tells you some information and you've recalled that person's name and you mixed it with this person and you've done that and you and I'm looking at it going wow that's some skill but you know you know if you put some microphone in somebody who just wants to be looked at and has got one joke you just put them up there like mate it's painful to watch and I'm sure you've seen that a few times i've seen it i've seen a couple times you just go you've lost them and also other comedians who you know you are doing the circuit and everything you'll be sat there listening to them and you'll go okay that's there but now you need to bring them back and they don't they're not they're not tuned they don't hear it then the quality of the laugh changes and you go okay you need to get these people here back in the room there's a skill in all of that is it is it when you're on stage with actors though because i spend my time on stage by myself so it's just i've only got really me to rely on but how hard is it when you're on stage and it's like you're saying you you're working with an actor and you're like you you need to have it man and is it is it is it is it a competitive sport because comedy is when you're on the okay it's different if you're on a tour show but if you're at the clubs there is this togetherness but we are also still competing yeah um it's just the nature of the sport but i need whoever's going on before me to do well because the crowd are up because if they don't do well it makes my job even harder but there is this thing in stand-up where you know it's like oh that's mo all right cool he does tv so let's see how good you really are because when when i go out the crowd will oh mo's here oh my god he's not even announced so i have to prove it to the audience and to you know some of the other comics that yeah like i can still have a reputation yeah it's still how is that with with with acting on on the stage well firstly if you're if you're on stage with people who are um into the competitive sport thing nightmare because you have to play as a team yeah you can only be as good as the you might think of yourself as a star striker but Honestly, if the team ain't good, you're going to lose.

28:12And the whole production falls apart. Also, people who are brilliant defenders, they need star strikers at that moment. They need people to play their own position well so that they know no goals are going past. I'm going to do my job well too. And then the whole team progresses. And that's what it's like with theatre. And it extends to stage management, director, musicians, you know, everything. They've all got to be good and they've all got to throw the ball back to you perfectly. You catch it, you throw it to the next person. And so the audience is watching the lines bounce and flip and then laughing and bam, bam, bam, bam.

28:46Then that scene's over and it's on to the next one. It's like everyone has to do their bit. So if you're in competition with somebody on stage, nah, man, it's just, life's too short, man. Just honestly, people who just want to get the laugh. because every laugh is a release of tension as you know so you create a little bit of tension and then you boom and you pop it in the bubble and everybody does

29:13Mo Gilligan: especially when I've gone to theatre and something happens in the audience where on stage you guys can break the fourth wall and address something that might be going on which is sometimes my favourite parts of going to a show and you know it might be I don't know a real 18th century piece like it's real it's that it's set in history do you know what I mean his Bridgerton kind of vibes. Then you have to come and see what I'm doing next. Yeah. You have to come. And like a phone would go off. Yeah. And then you see an actor be like, this wouldn't have happened in this decade. And everyone laughs because it happened in that moment.

29:50Mo Gilligan: But I always think that, yes, I find it funny as an audience, but is there a part of you as an actor where you're like, bro, just please stick to what's going on, man. I was on, but then a lot of people, people don't understand the theatre. So there was a group of kids in to see a show that I was doing. Bless them. And they were chatty and like excited and everything like that. But as you're doing the play, they think that you can't hear them because they're not used to the theatre. They think that you're just going to carry on no matter what. And so you're up, then you're doing it. But the great thing is you hear people and you say, no, I will not have that.

30:28Did you see what he said? You can hear the person. and oh no he's gonna do oh he picked it up like this and you're thinking i'm right here i can hear

30:38Mo Gilligan: so can everybody else you're not on your own i had one kid who was on the phone and i feel that was my i feel that well perhaps i could and i was like what then i heard yeah no i'm now i'm at the theater i'm watching the play no it's quite it's not bad you know and i could hear this i was thinking no um but yeah you sometimes you can um you can incorporate it and improvise together the worst the worst bit is when you're doing a musical because you're speaking you're all in time you're connecting everything but as soon as the music starts it's not like you press pause and go start again whatever it's a live band they're all in sync with each other.

31:25As soon as that music starts, you have to hit the first lyric. If you, for a moment, forget the word or the line, the music carries on. And then the line you have to remember is the one, two beats later, then three, then four, then a whole verse later you have to jump in. So that's the worst one. Once that music starts and you open your mouth to sing, not only told what to say and the pitch and when to say, you're told when to breathe. The music will tell you when you can breathe and you're just locked into it. So when you watch people do that and follow that system where they move on beat, they breathe on beat, they blink on beat, every word is enunciated on beat.

32:05But when you watch them, it looks like they just happen to be making it up at the time. Love that. Yeah. That's a real skill.

32:13Mo Gilligan: Yeah, I have a love for theatre, man. When I sit there, I've got my popcorn that costs about£7, my ice cream that costs£12. Yeah, I love the theatre. I'll buy all the snacks, you know? They'd love to see me coming, man. Let me get all the snacks, man. Yeah. You have to come. Come Stratford. Come Stratford and see the show. No, I really want to come, man. Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah. So in 1995-96, you won the Laurence Olivier Award for Best Actor in a Musical Role in Company. What's it like, though, when you start, like, you know, you start receiving these, like, awards where you're getting this industry recognition now?

32:51Mo Gilligan: because, you know, I guess it's one thing to live out your dreams to perform and, you know, like earn a living from it. But how does it start to change your mindset once you get recognised? Because it's exactly what you were saying. People go, oh, right. So you now have a kind of reputation for being good or you should know what you're doing. And it's slightly easier for you to get in the room to get the opportunity to get the next job. and all of that comes with you. But what they're expecting to come with you is the same quality of work. And the Olivier Awards was a good lesson for me. I did Sweeney Todd at the National Theatre and I was nominated for Best Supporting Actor in a Musical.

33:34And I thought, oh, wow, you know, I got nominated.

33:37Mo Gilligan: Maybe I could get this. And it was a big deal. It was like, wow, the Olivier Awards and so on. And I sat there and I didn't get it. And I was really deflated, but to be nominated, wow, it was really kind of... But I saw the person who did get it and heard the speech and then I watched everybody else, you know, get it and had the party and everything. And I thought, okay, yeah, well, you know, because I saw the shows and I thought that wasn't particularly the best in my opinion, but the work was good. So, okay, it's an opinion. The next year comes along. We've done As You Like It again. I get nominated for Best Actor for playing Rosalind.

34:06I go along again going, okay, now I've been nominated again, second year in a row. So I sat there. Okay, somebody else gets the award. I'm thinking, okay, that's great. But again, you see how it's people's opinions and there's a bank of good and people will be picked out of that. But everybody in that bank is good, as good as each other. Then the third year, third year in a row, now for Company, Best Actor in a Musical, I'm like, okay. I thought, this is a game now. So I went along like, okay. And Adrian Lester, oh, like, shit, I've got to get it. So even then when I got the award, I realised, I remembered the past two times, I thought,

34:50Mo Gilligan: this is an opinion out of a group of people who all deserve the recognition. But it's only a small section of theatre in London, which is a small section of theatre in the whole country. There's work going on at the Sitters, it's at the Birmingham Rep, but there's brilliant actors all over the place. But because they're not in that particular area, they're not considered for the Olivier Awards. So it just, the reality of what exactly I was being picked as being the best in somebody's opinion out of dawned on me. And I thought, okay, humble. Thanks. Move on. Because I think some people don't really realise how the nomination and just being in the room amongst people was like, I've kind of won, you know, the fact that I'm here and people just want to speak to me.

35:35Mo Gilligan: and like I never really realised it until I think I went to the BAFTAs in 2019 and the big nasty show was nominated and just going there you see everyone and you're on the red carpet I was like I don't know if we're going to win but just being here the fact that it's recognised and you're around these people and I remember meeting Lenny Henry that day and it's those things that you kind of take and the win is like really the bonus in a way but I know what you mean about like when you go the second time and you don't win you're like oh okay uh it was fun to go and have the day out the first time second time you're like i'll have to win it now and then you get to the third time you're like this is what i like to call playing the game if that makes sense where you have to i never really understood it until you go again and you're like i ain't won why am i going to this thing but you realize you have to keep playing what what is what what you say is play the game, you turn up, you know, you wear the suit and it's when you don't expect it and you're like, oh, well, I won.

36:38Mo Gilligan: I didn't think I was going to win. But also you're supporting, you're supporting your fellow artists, your fellow performers, fellow writer, directors and, and, and, you know, the TV, you're, you're supporting that world as that world tries to support its own excellence. Yes. Tries to say, look, we must always try to be excellent. and they're picking excellence out because it could so easily be about fodder and about crowd pleasing and about, you know, dumbing it all down and stuff. And they're going, no, no, no, no. Let's try and remember what we can possibly achieve if we do it right. So they're always aiming at excellence.

37:13I've never been nominated for a BAFTA. No, I won one. Right. Yeah, in everything I've done. And I've been to the BAFTAs and handed things out and it's great. But it's become one of my things like, do you know what? One of these days I'd like to do something.

37:26Mo Gilligan: You've never been nominated. No, no, no. That's fucked, bruv. Sorry to swear, bruv. I was like, what the fuck, bruv? No, but I've never... I'm like, you know, one day, I'm going to actually get nominated. I want to get nominated for something. I just got to find something good in it. Because we're going to get into your middle, right? And I'm looking at all your credentials here for your middle. Like, I remember first seeing you on my screen on Hustle, where you played Mikey. um Mikey Stone in hustle hustle was so good you were so cold in it bro like you know I was mad about hustle right I used to go youth club around this time and in the youth club I'll never forget we used it was in a it was in a church in Copleston church and they'd have the tv the tv would always be on and it would start around about 6 30 if I can remember 6 30 so no sorry seven o 'clock the 6.37 o 'clock.

38:27Mo Gilligan: So most of us would go to our adventure playground, finish at 5.30. We'd go home, get changed and we'd go to Coppoleson Church on a Friday. Because I remember Hustle used to come on on a Friday at around about 7 o 'clock. Yeah. If I can remember rightly. Wednesday, Friday. And we'd watch Simpsons. You know, you got home, you watch Simpsons, Fresh Prince of Bedair might come on 6.30. Then you're like, I've seen this episode of Fresh Prince. Make our way to the Coppoleson Church. And I remember I'll never forget this where some of the people in the youth club wanted to watch Friends which was coming on channel 4 and 7 and some of the people we wanted to watch Hustle yeah and everyone was like nah man nah nah nah but Bunda Bunda Friends bruh put put put this show on this show is is cold bruh and I remember we was all watching it and that was like my first time really seeing you on screen but it was such a good show it was a good show do people still come up to you in the street and still yeah yeah yeah yeah that one i mean we finished it 13 yeah 13 years ago it's not been on screen but um and it did the netflix thing and it did you know yeah yeah i loved that show that show was great good writing good team of actors good production q dos were great as a production company i mean just yeah nice nice because i felt like it was like oceans 11 before oceans 11 you know i mean i feel like they they copy your do you know how it's like well it was before all of the sort of the wave of it came like focus and hustle and American hustle yeah yeah yeah all of that but it was it was really nice to do really entertaining and Tony Jordan the creator and lead writer he just had a knack for knowing exactly how to hook an audience in treat them like they were the sixth member of the gang yeah and yeah it was nice when you're on a show that's like that as like a primetime show how does it start to change your career in some ways because you you've gone from the stage and and i know you've done things before that and stuff you know you was harry burton in primary colors in nat yate uh yeah um and you you know you had other things that you was in as well you know like love's labor's lost in 2000 and the day after tomorrow 2004 there's there's a lot of things that you've got like your your cv is is is stacked like but like what's the transition like for an actor from stage to screen because you was on screen before and then you're in you're on the stage you're you know when it comes to being on stage as a young actor going to rada and then you know then getting the attention of winning like a an olivier um so like how does that start to change you as an actor because is there like a love for stage or is there like a oh screen's a bit different now i can the audience say i can't listen to someone talking no there's no there's nobody gonna answer their phone and go yeah i'm at the fear um but i got i remember i got i auditioned for her still because the producer jane featherstone at the time at kudos she'd seen me do company on stage and she thought i think the actor could play this role that we're thinking of and i sat down with with um her and the other chief producer at the bbc i remember saying well how do you see because mickey stone you know i thought how do you see him do you see him as and it was albert's protege and so on so i did it in an american accent i did it in a british accent but much more like birmingham like from a city you could hear the city in him i did it in the accent i used which was like oxford educated guy put you know put on that sort of thing and i did it i auditioned in those three accents and said what do you feel works best and in the end they said actually do the do that kind of oxbridge kind of one and I went all right well we'll do that and um it was nice to play that role it was it sort of in people hadn't heard of me or seen my work until then and be like who's this guy who's this actor so it was nice to do that and get that you know tick that box so when you was in when you was in um you was in hustle um talks start happening for like you know, big opportunities like, I don't know where you think I'm going to go here, but talks start happening now.

43:05I don't know where you're going now.

43:07Mo Gilligan: For things like, you know, James Bond, right? 007 and stuff.

43:14Mo Gilligan: And there's that conversation of, oh, you know, maybe a black Bond. And I feel like, bro, like if there was going to be a black Bond, listen, we've seen you in this thing. Listen, come on, man. Right. So like, did you ever hear any of that kind of news or like? Yeah. Nothing official. Yeah. So nothing came from, you know, the Broccoli Entertainment or I forget the major company, but nothing came from Barbara Broccoli. Nothing came from having those meetings with the, I think it was MGM. There were no meetings with me, but I heard the Daily Mirror say this. I heard the news say that. Because they have the run-ins and you can bet and stuff like this.

44:00Mo Gilligan: Bet all of that. All of that. Yeah. And it's a big secret. And I think even if you meet for the role, you have to sign an NDA before they tell you what the meeting is for, so that they can actually keep everything close to their chest. Yeah. But no, no, none of that. how hard is that for an actor though to stay focused because i i've i've seen things in the press about my career of like oh i was going to american you might be doing this and i'm like yeah i didn't have that conversation but rah yeah that might change the generational history of my life generational wealth yeah yeah yeah how how is it for an actor because i've got friends that are actors and there are those roles that they say oh you know i'm doing a i've just done a self-tape for this and i've got this coming but if that was to come through um how is that for an actor because i guess i'm lucky enough to be in a position where it's like stand-up is my go-to it's the thing i always love i'm always in control of it yes you're And control.

45:09Mo Gilligan: And I guess for an actor, it's always based on so many different things. Like I've done my, I've done Celtics for things and stuff. And I've always like, oh, this will be great. And I do think in the back of my head, I'll be like, right, if I get that, that'll be insane. How is it for an actor? Because, you know, you're always relying on so many different opinions. And there might be times where, you know, I've had, I've had previous actors on here before. and they're like, yeah, like you, sometimes you're just in holding and you don't know. And you might sign something and then last minute they pick someone else and you don't even realise.

45:46What stress does that put on an act of mental health?

45:51Mo Gilligan: Because I guess knowing that you can only go in and do your best, but it could still be someone else's choice must be quite hard as something to, I don't know. you you you never you never have the power you never have power and that's um it's quite hard people will treat you treat you nicely based on your reputation or you know you're going to do that appearance or this or whatever so you get treated nicely for those things but when it comes to you trying to get the work that you want that matters you never have power and the act of presenting yourself in front of strangers to attempt to show them your choices over the material they have um is demoralizing because you walk away and just it's in their hands and i've become as i've got older i've I'm acutely aware of that power structure and what that, I've watched other actors and what that can do to them.

47:01And I've thought to myself, maybe there's a different way of doing things for myself personally. I'm starting to go, well, I've done enough things where I've been trying to please, maybe it's just my age, trying to please people with this stuff. I'm now going to just do what I really am passionate about and just go for those things. but constantly walking into rooms meeting very nice people this is the job who will look at you look you up and down and part of the decision making process is how popular is this person on i don't know on on social media or are they known in this um uh arena this this region um how will they look next to our lead how it's it's just it is it is demoralizing and then added to that someone like me i am not the one thing all the time because i i consider that to be part of my craft if i'm in something you don't know whether i'm gonna have american accent british accent regional accent you don't know whether i'm gonna be a murderer evil good whether i'm going to sing or not whether it's going to be classical or modern you you don't know because i can i can choose from any one of those things it actually makes it harder for people to choose me for something where they know exactly what i'm going to be like yeah yeah because it says adrian nester on the on the tin but you don't know what flavor is going to be inside this particular production there are a lot of actors who no matter what they're in they will have the same mannerisms same accent same kind of approach to drama and moments and beats because that's just what they do and that's you know good luck to them that's great but that's not what i particularly like and so therefore what i do is not not as easy to box inside a an amalgam of things that you want to create yeah so it's it's kind of hard but it's what makes me tick it's why i love the job so I'm sticking to that formula.

49:01But it must be hard. You must have done some pretty big auditions, things you probably can't tell people about.

49:08Mo Gilligan: I was just about to say something and I auditioned for this, I didn't get it. But I thought, no, what's the point? Don't say it. I bet you've done some. I bet it's like, Mo, it's time for your movie, man. It's time for your main... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet some scripts have come your way as well. Some lovely scripts, man. You know, I've also been very... I'm very much a realist in terms of I know why I'm getting this email to do this self-tape. I understand my stock is hot. And I know that I haven't kind of dipped my toe within the field of acting and on screen as such. And I would love to, you know, if the right role came.

49:48Mo Gilligan: But I think that's where I'm at as a position of like, it's got to be the right role. I feel like doing something because it's typecast and it's like, oh, you're really funny. We've got this funny role. and I'm just like look there's probably an actor who really wants this so much more and if I'm on tour and I know my head is tunnel vision I've got the blinkers on for creating this tour and then I've got to work into a tv show I'm not going to give you the energy and the love that I need for this role and I think that's where I've always looked at acting of from a place of there's someone else that really wants this more than me and you must give that thing to that person as opposed to yeah I'll do it that'll be great and that's another thing I can tell people about but yeah some cool stuff man it affects your brand as well because if somebody says oh Mo's in this you go oh right let's watch and if you're having a bad day people will judge you and how you are in that thing as being your best and they'll go oh that's what he's like he's not that funny you know I don't like him yeah and he's a bit that's it and you could be having a terrible day with a terrible script and terrible but people don't care people will just go that's the pinnacle of what you can achieve on screen so i've i have i've had some auditions with people where and this is just me man i'm always trying to protect the future person that i want to be i've had some auditions with people where i've just come out of the audition and i've called my agent and i've just said nah i really wanted the job that's very powerful but in me in meeting them and seeing how they look at me and yeah we were thinking maybe you could um can you can you do yeah we were thinking um and can you and they just look at you like a thing and i thought i'm going to be with you for what four months yeah doing my best for you and this is what you're like i'll hate it and if i hate it i'm not going to do my best work and if i don't do my best work that is going to affect me more than getting paid for your job so i've called my agent and i've gone no i said i don't care what they say after this whether they come back positive or not i am not doing this job that's powerful and then i go on to something else that's that's probably like knowing your power as well your only power is to say is to say no and um sometimes how hard you work as a as a comedian how hard you work with everything that you're tapped into some people creating some projects they actually don't deserve that amount of hard work and commitment so when you say that job isn't for me you know what give that to somebody else it's like i with everything that's going on in my life to cut out that piece and say i'm going to give all my energy to you and your project it's not worth it i can see it's not worth it i can see what you're about so actually it's best that we don't do this because you're going to have an unhappy actor on your hands and that's i don't want that yeah you know go go for it good luck but it's not me i'm gonna go over here yeah Yeah.

52:40Mo Gilligan: You say going over here, there's a lot of black actors now that are going over to the States. And, you know, there's a lot of British black actors that are finding success. You know, how has your experience been in terms of going over to America? Because I hear it's quite obviously it's hit and miss. And I know what it's like when you go to L.A. there's the stat i think is crazy of like a hundred thousand people every year go to la and a hundred thousand people leave every year do you know i mean from all around the world all around america everyone goes there to make it um what's your experience been like when you've gone over to that side of the i have been back and forth over there to audition for things i've done things over there did girlfriends over there the sitcom um i did done some stuff in new york um and And I filmed Primary Colours in LA and New York.

53:35And when I did Primary Colours, this was before the trend of people going over. I remember going into meetings after I played this lead role in a film. And I go into meetings and I talk like myself. And these casting directors and producers, you know, I met a lot of people. They looked at me like, what? I was just, it was unheard of. They were kind of going, oh, oh, hi. Yeah. Are you, you're, I'm British. Of course, yes. Great. Please have a seat. And they just couldn't compute that you would, they thought they were going to meet Henry Burton. They thought that. And I was there on my baseball cap, my t-shirt, and just like, yeah, no, it's great to be here.

54:21This is fantastic. God, it's hot. How do you cope with it? And they're going, this person's different. Henry, I had to make sure I had to create the kind of persona that if you closed your eyes and listened to him as a young black American, you couldn't tell what his racial identity was. So with my accent, it was so it was quite like that. And I wanted wanted to stay there. And it was. And so with that accent, it was kind of like he he's a real preppy nerdy guy underneath it all. political awareness is off the charts. But you couldn't quite tell, which is why Billy Bob Thornton's character says, man, I'm blacker than you are.

55:00Mo Gilligan: I'm from the South. I'm blacker than you are. And that kind of thing had to work. But so as I walked into the offices, they were thinking, this is not the person we saw on screen. No, because I'm an actor. But it didn't, you know, didn't compute. Then I hung around for a bit. Then I came home and I was unemployed for a year before I got a job with Lenny James doing Storm Damage with Ashley Walters and Ashley Medeque and the gang. And yeah, I've been back, but it's never quite worked. I've always gone back for a week or I've gone back for two weeks. I can't go back and just sit there for months like some people do.

55:36I've always gone back. And then there's been a theatre job where it's been a TV thing. And I've just come home, done some work, maybe gone back. So it's never quite worked. Maybe it will one day, but you know.

55:47Mo Gilligan: because i i think with you know now i think when especially even when i go out there probably 90 percent of people i know out there are actors predominantly black british actors um and some people working behind the screen as well that are seeing success there um but it's so interesting to understand what the landscape is there from someone that has had one your cv is is very extents but also it's like you know you've done your stage you're on the screen and when you go over there i think sometimes there is this perception of like oh like everyone's successful everyone wants to live out there who's from the uk but there is also a lot of us who's like it's good to work here but it's also great to come back did you find it harder when you came back because you've kind of gone over there you've had some success over there because you said you didn't work for a year.

56:41Mo Gilligan: Was that down to you? I don't know. I feel like sometimes if you go over there, there is this, oh yeah, he lives out there now. He's not. There was that. Some people said, well, you're still here. Yeah. When I'm cycling my bike through Clapham and I stop by a red light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People look at me like, wait. I was like, oh, hiya. You don't go for muscle? I said, yeah, yeah. You live here. Firstly, what are you doing on a bike? Where's your car? I've cycled because I believe in green issues. But then they're like, you live here. Like, and especially around where I live, going down the road and just getting my shopping or buying a first night gift for a friend and popping into a shop or if somebody bumps into me, the amount of people who've just gone, what are you doing around here?

57:29And I say, I live around here. You live, like, here isn't worth anything. Do you know what I mean? That kind of weird thing of, you should be over there, like doing the glamorous, no, no, no, I live here. This is South Eastland. This is where I live. This is, you know, my kids went to school over there. It's a strange thing, but coming back, going back to what your question was, coming back, I was unemployed for a while because I'd just done this lead role in a Universal Studios movie, playing opposite John Travolta and Emma thompson and kathy bates and billy bob thornton and maura tianney and larry hagman and it was great to do i come home and because it hadn't come out yet and we're talking 1997 now so let's take all of our awareness and just rewind a couple of decades we're talking 97 and um i was just around as an actor young actor going i've just done this thing i can't audition for two scenes in a detective drama where I'm like either the, I can't, I've got to hold on and wait for some of this to actually trickle through.

58:41And it didn't. And then I did Storm Damage. And then things started to trickle through and I did a spate of independent British films.

58:51Mo Gilligan: That must be quite hard for an actor knowing you, they're like, bro, I've got something cooking. It's going to come out next year. But I'm broke right now. I'm broke right now. Because I don't think a lot of audiences know that things can be made so far in advance. And it is like, when does that film come out? 2027. And you're like, it's 2025 now. But I think sometimes the perception when you're on the red carpet and you're doing all the press and you're like, I think sometimes people think that like, oh, yeah, all these actors are mates. And they're like, they haven't seen each other for two years.

59:24Mo Gilligan: Now they've got to be friends on the red carpet. knowing that you're like, yeah, doing this press run has now meant that I can't do this other job because I have to, I've signed up for this thing and I haven't even watched the film. I've not even seen it yet. I remember being invited back out to a place to see a film, to do the press for a film that I hadn't even seen. And to come and attend, do all the photographs and all of that for a thing, I didn't know what it was like. you know so that that that can happen too that's mad but also the the ups and downs of it i think it's very important to always go back to something that you can control that you have got a handle on like if you're in the middle of projects or if they stall for a bit you can go to a club yeah you can just go you know i've got this couple of ideas let me see if i can tie something around it for a 15 minute set and just go and do a club and you'll go and you'll test the material and you might just improvise off something and think you know what that was good i like that bit i'm going to hold that in my head for when later on you can always self-develop and do something as an actor if you're not getting the work you can't so why for me it's always been martial arts i've always gone to a a place where i can practice do my thing improve at something that's got nothing to do with the industry and you know what if you break the brick you break the brick it's not someone's opinion of whether you broke the brick or not and you don't get the award you get the belt because you know the form if you know the form it doesn't matter how high you are what your weight is what you look like where your parents are from, it doesn't matter.

1:00:55If you know the form when you break the brick, you get the belt. And that kind of clarity, that logic of progression is the right antidote for an industry like mine that can be sometimes quite arbitrary and, you know, opaque when it comes to making choices. It must be quite nice because people are judging you not on, oh, you're an actor.

1:01:20Mo Gilligan: They're almost judging you on like, oh, I like a form, man. I like the way you've done that. it's just that and and have conversations that have nothing to do with the job that i do because 90 of my time will be with you know with wherever you're on set and you're talking to actors and directors and scenes and then that 10 is like i'm at home i've got zoning family life what's going on like saying going down the shop and getting your your things and that that's your escapism but then having that part of your life that's so crucial of like i do this other thing that some people don't even know that i do and the people i talk to about it are the people that know me for just doing this thing um i took that i took that with mma fighting and it's so fun man like hitting like perfecting my form of hitting the bag is like where like you know nine times out of ten i'm like that joke was good this that was that where now i'm like getting people like yeah like the way the way you swing is i've never seen that you know i was doing some stuff recently with a weighted vest on and people was like it's really good man because like you're putting the weight on your standing leg but where you're kicking it is like you know you're really shoving it in now that's great yeah yeah and i'm like you don't know me as a mo gilligan yeah it's so fun man it's so fun it does reset the other side of your head that just goes i don't know when you asked earlier about mental health and and not being in control and all of that it's not that you have to learn to hit people to be in control but the fact that you can progress at something that's got nothing to do with that you can i remember talking to an actress famous actress in la she was in between work and she bought a harp and she was learning to play the harp she was just she was just learning something new and acquiring something new that had nothing to do with how people were going to see her or artists actors that paint or that will write music or that will, they'll just do something that's got nothing to do with, I can't wait for your judgment of me to be positive enough for me to get a job.

1:03:25Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because that's toxic. You have to do something else, do something else, do something else, do something else. And while you're in that environment as well, it's very, how you're regarded by like all the people that you work with, you know, the team and everything like that, how the team place you, how they work. that has to be seamless it's quite interesting to listening to Kevin Hart as well talk about how the team they just have to work like everything no egos no put downs no nothing it's just we're all about this one thing because there's enough there's enough stuff dragging you back yeah yeah yeah so within your career as much as you get your plaudits for being an actor as well you get um invited to buckingham palace what experience was that like because i've been to buckingham palace um i got to meet king charles and i took my mum with me and boy let me say something when i was outside i had a really nice car as well and it was really it was really for my mum as well i was like come on man let's have a good day out but sitting outside and i seeing all the tourists outside and they're like, who's that?

1:04:44Mo Gilligan: And the police check it over and you go in. I was like, yo, listen, Amanda, I think I've made it. You know, how was it like for you? Cause you got, it's, do you have a CB? Yeah. What was, what was that experience like? That must, your mom must've been so proud, man. Mum, it's one of those things you accept because you know, what mom was going to be like. But the added gloss on that was, I was there, for a concert where I read you know it was about Shakespeare being turned into opera and so Daniel Denise was there and some other opera singers and Bryn Turfel was there and they were singing and I was reading and I sang a little thing next to them oh my god anyway I did that thing and after that event I was getting my coat and you meet the staff who are lovely the staff are so nice the staff are so nice they're so nice hello what are you doing no come this way he's like this and you're walking down these big corridors you're like what the hell so and it takes you a moment before you realise this is a representation of part of what we've given not we as black people but we as a country what we've done for the country has allowed the country to be able to reach a height that has managed so in a way you sort of take slight ownership of I put into this too do you know what I mean it's not like it's not just just about them it's a symbol of what the country's achieved.

1:06:12Anyway, so I'm walking down these corridors and looking, it's like an art gallery. So I get my stuff and I leave. Then I come back because there is a, there's another event. Oh, I attend an event. So I'm just, as an actor, attending this event, walking around the staff there. So when I come back for the OBE, it's about a month later. Just cherry on the cake. I walk in and walk in with my mum. and as I'm going up the stairs and I'm there with my mum and I walk these big red stairs at the front there's the guy at the top hello Adrian how are you and I'm fine he said well you know where everything is don't you know do you want to put your coat in I went no I'll keep it on he said well you know where you're going hello is this your mother and it's all in the livery you know my mum was like bruh walk into Buckingham Palace and they know you I was like wait did they know you I was like yeah it was it was me and my ex-wife my mom and my father-in-law just walking here like yeah this

1:07:13Mo Gilligan: was good yeah yeah the staff are lovely man i was filming in there and you're not allowed to film i was like i gotta come out with something man no one will believe i've ever been man so i started filming in there and i'm like you know i'm not trying to get a sneaky film and then one guy was like he come up to me he's like uh excuse me sir please no filming in in the royal house um and i I was like, oh, bro, I'm so sorry, man. I just wanted to let's capture a little something. He goes, no, it's okay. Big fan. See you on Google box. I said, no, big up, my guy. I appreciate you, man. I lost myself.

1:07:46Mo Gilligan: I was about to spot it. Don't touch the staff. Thank you. But yeah, man, it must be, it must be quite an honor though to like start receiving things for like, just like your work. Do you know what I mean? As much as that you get them for like things where it's like you're in a category and you know, you might win, you might not. But like, when you're able to take your mum to those things, which is like, oh, right, you can look back and say, oh, okay, right. Yeah. I was talking the real honour. Yes, you meet members of the royal family and they will confer this honour upon you. But the real honour for me is being in a line of the 2012 Olympic athletes who were receiving awards as well, standing behind.

1:08:31and I hope by some point she gets to listen to this, standing behind the couple who had fostered 36 children, 36 teenagers, and I think they were from Leicester or Leeds, I'm not sure where, and they were getting an award, standing in front of a woman who was a care worker, who had her whole team had said, this woman has to be acknowledged for going above and beyond the call of duty in her profession, so much so that it benefits the country. And that's what the conversation was. It was, you're in your profession, you get paid and that's fine. But when you go above and beyond the call of duty, you get promoted and that's fine.

1:09:07But if you go further to the point where you are a credit to the nation and we are proud as, you know, for what you've done, then the royal family as symbols of that nation will give you an honor on behalf of the nation. and it's that that it's that system however it's called however it goes whatever the name of it is it's that system that is being honored by your presence and so with the legacy that i have i thought yeah i'm not refusing my place in any room um i will i'll be a part of that room because everything that has been achieved by this country has come through my legacy too yeah so i just thought yeah and there's all sorts of conversations about should you shouldn't you and yeah and for me i'm like no no my presence there my lack of presence keeps it the same my presence inside that room changes it slightly so that's very powerful man speaking of powerful you're back on stage man

1:10:04Mo Gilligan: back with rsc that's i know you had some auditions and stuff today as well um how you how how how is the rsc because i know i've never worked there before this is this your first time this is my first time really yeah yeah yeah i know the rsc is not a joke in it like i i had a friend of mine who he writes i write with him actually he's one of my my writers that i work with and he has told me how one how privileged it is to be even part of the rsc but it's like yeah bro this is like for stage this is the real like you've joined the avengers basically and this is the the real stuff for anyone who's listening who might not understand like the the RSC and what it really is and what it really means just for you to to be part of it it's your first time how could you explain it for anyone because you're going to be there you're there on the 27th of September to the 15th of November right?

1:11:04Yeah that's where it runs from and we have official opening night on the 7th of October so if you come on the 27th of October to the 7th of 27th of September to the 7th of October. You're watching previews, so please be kind. But going, being part of it, I mean, I haven't gone up there and performed there until. I've seen friends there. But it's holding a legacy. And it prides itself, whoever the artistic directors are, it prides itself on excellence of theatre, which means it needs an excellence of actor and i remember nick heitner for the on behalf of the national theater when he ran it going to drama schools and saying i can put whatever play i like on national theater stage but if i haven't got the performers who can handle it if i don't have stage animals and by that i mean really grounded in touch with their emotions powerful voice um intellectually capable animals on stage.

1:12:11I can't do those plays. And the RSC is a company full of those animals. They're all, everybody there works hard. Doing stuff now that I don't even know if I can get through one performance of, let alone do two in one day. We're still putting it together, you know. I'll get there. But it's, yeah, it's tough.

1:12:32Mo Gilligan: It's tough. You can't muck about. You can't be, if you haven't got the voice, you ain't got the power, you haven't got the stance, you haven't got the presence, you haven't got the ability to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat, you're not going to cut it. Yeah. And for anyone listening, it's the Royal Shakespeare Company. Yes. Because I don't know anyone being like, what's this RSC? What's this Rusk? What's this, yeah, what's this, bruv? How does it feel now, like, where you are in your career now, where you are part of the RSC and you're going to be performing there, you know, in the next couple of weeks?

1:13:05Mo Gilligan: do you still feel like you have a hunger for it because of course to wake up every morning we all have a hunger for what we love to do but with this being your first time how does how does the hunger change does that make sense do you know i mean you know sometimes you can be like going to fridge and i wasn't actually hungry for anything but you might see something like oh hang on a minute that that ox head and rice though i was i'll eat that do you know what i mean yeah um how does your hunger change now as uh as a as an actor where you are part of the rsc and it's your first time is is it like i have to really now prove my credentials or is it like oh my god i've waited here so long like where was the call 10 years ago do you know what i mean yeah um it's not that there hasn't been the opportunity before or sorry it's not that i haven't been asked before or talked to the various artistic directors about some plays i might want to do that's come up before it's just never been the right time timetable to get things right i mean hustle for instance cut out eight years worth of summers there were just there were just you know there was no point because we were filming um but it's the first time everything's come together with the right play the right director the right timing the right you know so that's why this is working but there there is it's a lead role there is an onus on me to come up with the goods in many ways if i'm under par and i'm not up for it and i'm having a really really bad night like a really bad night, it will be a bad show.

1:14:49Because I have to do so much in it to make it work. And the other actors, as brilliant as they all are, and it's just the arrangement of the material, the particular arrangement of this show, as brilliant as they are, it's my responsibility to join those elements of brilliance up inside a plot that is centered around my character. And there's two other characters as well. So you have that weight where you go, you know what, I have to also live up to the commitment to you lot of hard and all your hard work. And that's challenging. And so when you're talking about the oxtail in the fridge, it's that feeling of, I wonder what that tastes like.

1:15:28I wonder if I could cook that. I wonder if I could. It's the challenge. It's the challenge. And so parts interest me now, parts that I think, I wonder if I could do that. And so I'm testing myself.

1:15:45Mo Gilligan: So, yeah. There must be a nice place to be in, though. Like, as an actor where you're like, oh, I want to challenge myself with this one. Like, I feel like as an actor, you probably have that with every role that you look at. But definitely looking at roles where you're like, oh, I could have done this this time, but I still have the hunger and desire to want to do it for the challenge of it, not for the, oh, it looks good on the CV. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a privileged position to be in. I mean, and I'm guessing you're in the same place in the different sort of lane of performance and art.

1:16:23But it's a privileged position to be in because I am stepping back for a moment and choosing. And being able to choose is a privilege. And I accept that and I wear that. I don't wear that lightly. And so the RSC agreeing, okay, yeah, you've got this idea. yes it's with Simon Evans yes it's with Debra Stevenson we are going to give you the space to to go for it what do you think that's a privilege and so I'm I'm going to bring my old Jamaican work ethic to it as always and just be like you know what I'm I'm head down I'm I'm I'm steaming

1:17:00Mo Gilligan: through this this is let's do it let's go how do you start to look at your your end in some ways where I feel like and this is just my opinion when it comes with actors I feel like actors are really in that beautiful peak when you know if they spend their early let's say 20s maybe 30s of stage theater film and you get to have a nice very like even for myself as a comedian I feel like my favorite comics are the comics where they are like 50 60 years old and you have so much that you watch them and you're like oh wow i remember seeing seinfeld for the first time and i'd never seen him and i was like doing stand-up yeah i get it i never got it before because i never really watched the show but when i seen him live i was like ah i get it i seen dave chappelle in la and he just popped in and i love dave i've seen him but seeing him live and you're like okay this isn't this isn't even a show that's going to be on tv this is just you trying stuff and you're like ah you're at that beautiful stage of you know if we look at football terms you know like when they say a footballer he's at his peak 28 to 30 in his best era um where you where do you look at like your legacy now because you spoke about a little bit before with like the cve but But, you know, when you're at a position where you're at, where, you know, you're having the opportunity to choose what you want to do, the roles you want to do, what you want to wake up for in the morning.

1:18:34Mo Gilligan: And you're someone where I could imagine as young actors that are working alongside you that they're like, I really want to impress Adrian Lester from on stage with him or from on screen with him. Where do you start to look at your own legacy in some ways?

1:18:55um i think that i've learned recently that it's best to be happy with what you do yourself for your own development and not pretend that you don't have the power you don't have the all you don't have the um the acumen or the ability and as well as waiting for other people to give you the job the opportunity you can also sometimes wait for other people to give you permission and lately i've stopped doing that i've stopped waiting for some sort of reflection to tell me who I am or gender self-worth so with that in mind in terms of legacy I just I would love to have one and when it is looked at if anybody does you know later on go oh that was good or that was good or that was good I want to make sure they're things I'm proud of so whatever it may be and however I might do it um I'm giving myself permission and not waiting for someone else's approval and that has been that has brought about a big shift yeah in my psyche um so yeah i i'm i'm kind of i'm doing that much more now and as it goes toward the end like you mentioned what you do in between jobs and i remember sydney poitier in between doing major films was washing dishes rather than do the jobs that were around for him to do at that time and he just went no and he is sydney poitier because of the work that he did but if he pulled on other work and did other roles around that were around at the time he wouldn't be sydney poitier so it's it's the measure of it's an equation of everything you've done and everything it would be it five years in between or two years in between or whatever every project makes you makes up your legacy and I want to make sure that my legacy's good I want to be proud when I when I sit back at the end and go oh yeah

1:21:14Mo Gilligan: I did that yeah yeah I did that I managed to get that done as well yeah I want to do I want it to be a series of things that I can smile about rather than go let's put that one away delete that one from IMDB yeah it's it's just that really it's just wanting to make sure you do you do good stuff and i'm sure like i would love to see what's waiting for you be the thing that happens and and having that waiting there knowing that that's in the future somewhere it's exciting because actually all you're doing is tracking a path to that i'm still the little kid who wants to be a jedi yeah do you know what i mean i'm still that little kid it's true i think all of our dreams when we get into you know the the whatever you know whatever you want to call it the industry or whatever it is is always looking back at like when you i always look back at the first thing that used to excite me of like going to a show and being like wow people paid to come and see me and i think i always hold on to that so dearly whether it's 20 people or 20 ,000 I'll sit there and I'm like oh my god people are paid to come and see that's all I used to care about going to Edinburgh give them a flyer oh they actually came they actually came they put£4 in the bucket and I think holding on to that as much as you know you have your highs and your lows and what not having that feeling of like oh my god they used their time and they want to see me and they laughed is like the most precious innocent feeling that goes back to the 19 year old Mo when he first started doing comedy that kid you know i mean yeah um but adrian man it's been such a pleasure to have you on the pod i'm so glad we was one able to make this happen but um i think for so many young actors out there and you know not even young actors i think this actor's listening to this um your journey is so inspiring and it's so inspiring from even for me from a standpoint of having a teacher tell me you don't want to be doing what walk on you don't want to be doing an extra role and because you won't get taken seriously well i feel like you are definitely proof in the pudding for that because there will be a young adrian lester listening to this right now who has got someone in his ear saying bro don't you don't want to be doing that walk on ting bruv you you need to be front you but you need to be duchene in top boy that's you but your work shows so much more than than that where it is the spaces that you occupy, but also how important the stage is, how important the screen is, but also what it means to be an actor, to know that you're like, yeah, I value who I am when I go into that audition room, to know that I don't know if this is right for me.

1:24:09Mo Gilligan: I don't know if you're the right person that I need to work with. And I don't think as many people know how powerful it is to say no and saying yes. and I feel like you're kind of like the epitome of that in some ways. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Thank you, man. I really, really appreciate it, man. Thank you. And I'm going to try my best to come up. Please, please. When you were talking about it, I thought, I think you'd like it, actually. No, no, I would probably like it, man. I think you'd like it. Listen, if they got that£12 ice cream and the£4 kettle chips, listen.

1:24:43Mo Gilligan: I'll make sure they have them. The bar will have to see me there, you know. £20 beer. You might hear me munching. but no man this is this has been your beginning middle and end thank you very much thank you thank you appreciate you man appreciate you thank you hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode i know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it i'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace