Shazia Mirza: I Had to Escape a Comedy Gig Through a Toilet Window!

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan. Right now, you're tuned into my podcast, The Beginning, Middle and End. Now, the comedian that I'm going to introduce you to is an absolute pioneer. You've probably seen her on your television screens before, whether it's Have I Got News For You, Mock The Week, or Would I Lie To You, just to name just a few. She's regarded as one of the first Muslim women in comedy. She hails from Birmingham. She even used to be a teacher and she even taught one of the friends of the show, Dizzy Rascal. Please welcome to the podcast, Shazia Merzah. Appreciate you coming in though, Shazia.

0:36Oh, thank you, Mo. Appreciate you. It's nice to be here.

0:39Mo Gilligan: We last met on, sorry, I didn't know. What a crazy show that was. I absolutely find that such an honour to do that show. I'm kind of like an honorary black person. Well, I'm really black. I'm from Birmingham. um so but like i feel like it's a groundbreaking show you know it's the first time they've ever had a black panel show on tv that's run for so long and that where the format is great because you always learn something as well not just like the audience but like as a contestant as a person on there um and it's all black panel black host and oh my god the makeup room is something else yeah yeah yeah oh my it's like it's like a party at jay-z's house 100 you go in and there's music playing all the greatest hits yeah yeah there's like 10 makeup artists one for the hair one for the nails one for the face that's it you go in for the makeup you come out with a facelift a massage i've had hair removal in there i've had the whole lot in there and honestly i've seen white comedians go in there and honestly they are shocked when they're sitting in the chair like what is what is happening to me honestly it's so funny I love that because that's the first time I've ever done the show and I know Jimmy quite well we've always tried to make it happen and I think it happened mainly because I was like one I was just like I'm around I would love to do it big fan of the show I know a lot of people on it as well but I love that from like your perspective of like the makeup room because it just it it's that thing that before you do any big shows especially panel shows yeah they can be quite nerve-wracking because and I've only ever done a few I don't feel like my comedy lends itself to panel shows especially when I was first starting anyway yeah yeah um I know you've you've done loads of them but I think for me when I first started I was like oh like how do you like I don't want to interrupt but i want to get the joke in but it's kind of moved on now yeah yeah but that room sets you up as like oh it's hype it's vibrant it's warm it's everyone's laughing and talking the music the culture the things they talk about the things the makeup they use i mean yeah i've never had yellow eyeshadow on before and like nails they're doing my nails and then someone's blow drying my hair and it's like it's a real experience that that makeup room and it sets you up for the show yeah yeah of course because it's like i tell you what that makeup room you don't get that on mock the week i've never had a full body massage a full body hair removal eyebrows tattooed i've never had that on any other show yeah yeah but it's really great because it gives you a sense of black culture black culture uh you learn stuff in there the makeup artists are great and there's always kind of what I like about it is they've always got some new up and coming makeup artist or hairdresser in there who's just starting out yeah like so they give opportunities to all these younger people to do celebrities hair which is like amazing for them yeah for your cv and take a picture and say like I worked on a television show and I got to do this person's hair and I just love doing that show I've done it I've done every single series apart from the first one it's just it's great because i get messages from white people going do you know what i learned so much from watching this show i learned so much from watching this show more than i ever learned at school i've had so many messages like that from people and it's like revising you know because you do have to learn stuff for the show but also like when we done the quick fire round you was on fire like i love to learn but that quick fire round even i was like oh i think and I guess we're winning.

4:32Mo Gilligan: Eddie's like, oh my God, I knew I could win with you on my team because I've been on Richard Blackwood's team lots and I've been on Eddie's team and it's just great. I just love that show. And I love it that they have like, you know, like a white person on as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I think it's a show that because I remember watching it last year. So when Eddie was in the jungle last year, it came on straight after I'm a Celeb, which you know like in the world of tv you know you're like wow to be on a hit especially when the show is just launched yeah and you have your show afterwards you get like a you know you you always get like a drop off i don't know 20 but 20 will stay and i was like wow that's a good slot yeah yeah you know where you're you know where the series launches and eddie was on it and stuff but again it's a show that's it's it's a really good show it's really funny it's silly it's It doesn't take itself seriously, but it can get serious as well, which is great.

5:30Mo Gilligan: It's a beautiful show. And so we've run for seven series in this day and age. In this day and age. Where nothing runs for nothing. I mean, it's amazing. On terrestrial TV. I mean, I didn't even know people were still watching TV. Because every time I bump into people in the street and they'll go, oh, I saw you on Would I Lie to You. I'll go, oh, did you like that episode? They'll go, oh, no, no, no. I just watch like a short clip on Instagram or TikTok. So the people don't actually watch whole shows anymore. They watch clips. Yeah. And so to run for 7 Series, it's a massive achievement. And you're from Brum as well, right?

6:08Mo Gilligan: I'm from Birmingham. From Birmingham. And growing up in Birmingham, obviously I know all about black culture, you know, because it's so multicultural. What part of Birmingham are you from? I was brought up in Harbourn. Okay. And then my parents moved to Edgbaston when I was about 16 and then we lived there. but every part of Birmingham is multicultural. You know, we used to go to the Handsworth, we used to go to Handsworth to get our spices. You know, we go Lady Paul Road to get our curry. You know, you get your hair removal on the Soho Road. Everybody knows the places to go. And everywhere you go, you know, you can get Caribbean food in Handsworth, not just Asian food.

6:45Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And, you know, you can go and have your hair done on Soho Road, black hair and Asian hair. And that's how I was brought up. Yeah. I was brought up in a school which was also multicultural. I had black friends, Asian friends, white friends, Jehovah Witnesses friends. Yeah. And that's the beauty of Birmingham. I know people diss it a lot. No, I've got loads of time for Birmingham. Oh my gosh. Outside of London, that's my biggest audience. I think it's such a privilege to have been brought up in Birmingham. I've got a lot of time for Birmingham. It's got everything in it. You know, grew up with UB40.

7:17They were white, but they were black, but they were black, but they were white.

7:20Mo Gilligan: UB40, yeah, they've got some tracks, You know, listen, listen, middle England white people love UB40. Love UB40. I knew Brian Travers. He was the saxophone player. He passed away a few years ago. So I knew him and he would always invite me to his concerts. And I remember going to see him at Wembley. Oh, my God. This was like maybe, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago when it was sold out. It was sold out and it was full of white people. and you know what? They brought the reggae to the white people. You know, people that might have been scared to go into a heavy black culture. They brought it to the people.

8:03They brought it to the white people.

8:05Mo Gilligan: Listen, it goes down, you know. You go to a white folk. When Red Red Wine plays, Red Red Wine. They love it. And in Birmingham, these guys were lauded and applauded. And you know what? They had a massive market. Yeah, yeah, yeah. huge they had a massive market and and their story is great they were unemployed and there's like you know there's asian people in the bland there's white people there's black people it was just it was so representative of birmingham yeah when you when you started doing comedy is it true that i heard your parents had seen you on um have i got news for you i didn't tell my parents didn't know they didn't know my parents were very strict yeah i mean look i was brought up in birmingham working class Muslim Pakistani household.

8:52I had a strict Pakistani father who was a dictator, you know, wasn't allowed out the house, wasn't allowed. And people confuse that sometimes between being Muslim and culture, religion and culture.

9:05Mo Gilligan: People conflate the two and they do get conflated. And it's important to make the distinction between religion and culture. You know, my parents were culturally, you know, very strict. So I wasn't allowed out the house. I wasn't allowed to talk to boys. My parents were very strict. Like if I was caught talking to a boy, my mum would say, or if I was like five minutes late home from school, my mum would go, where have you been? You have been sleeping with every boy in Birmingham. You are a prostitute. You are. Honest to God, word for word, that is what she would say. You are a prostitute. You have been sleeping with every boy.

9:44I'm like, I'm 11 years old. I'm not. I'm not. Look, he asked me for directions. I gave him directions. I'm not sleeping with him, honestly. And honestly, if I wore a short, if my school skirt was like just above the knee, she'll say, why are you going to school with short skirt? You are running a brothel. You are. You are a prostitute. And honestly, I got insulted so much. I got shamed so much. And people that are Pakistani, girls and boys, they will understand. I'm black. my black friends as well you know when lenny henry did sketches about getting beaten as a kid and richard pryer getting beaten as a kid that was just the way it was as a form of discipline yeah that you know yeah my parents used to talk to me like this they were very strict but that was their culture they were immigrants they came here in the 70s in the 60s and 70s and they brought their culture with them and that was their way of disciplining their kids obviously today it's child abuse but that back then yeah yeah that was just that was just how they disciplined us and i and you know at the time i used to think my god my parents are so strict i can't wear what i want all my white friends karen and sharon they were going to discos and they were you know drinking and they were having boyfriend i wanted to be like sharon i wanted like a boyfriend my parents were strict and i used to think god they are so strict i can't do anything i wanted to go drama lessons they wouldn't let me um they wouldn't let me do anything and now I look back

11:17Mo Gilligan: and I think actually I think they saved me yeah I think they saved me because I could have ended up being the Muslim Bonnie Blue or in my case or in my case Bonnie Brown

11:36because look what's happening today look what it's out of control it's out of control now nobody's got any shame no one's got i think bring back a bit of shame yeah people not shaming people for being fat or black or whatever personal shame people need to have some personal shame and I grew up with a lot of personal shame because I was called a prostitute from when I was 11. I was on the game. I was running a brothel. Nobody will marry you. You have slept with everybody in Birmingham. I was like, I wish. I never had the chance. You never let me out. So I grew up with that sense of shame. But actually I think it did me good because I feel like young people these days They've got nothing.

12:27They've got no shame about anything they do. They want to normalize everything and everything is not normal. You know what Bonnie Blue is doing? It's not normal. And it's, you know, I think it's feeling like it's taking women a bit back. And, you know, I grew up in a totally different way. And in the 80s and 90s in Birmingham, all my friends were brought up the same way. Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, no matter what, they were brought up the same way.

12:57Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because I'm assuming your parents probably wanted you to be maybe like a doctor. Oh, my God. Lawyer. The irony of this, Mo. Engineer. They always wanted me. I actually became a science teacher in the end. You know, I was a science teacher in the east end of London. But why did I become a science teacher? Because my parents are Asian. And they wanted me to be a doctor. Marry a doctor. Have some little doctors. You know, the irony of this is recently I got a part in EastEnders as a doctor, as a paediatrician, Dr. Ayub. And honestly, my parents were knocking on all the people's doors in Birmingham going, my daughter is a doctor.

13:40Finally, she is a doctor. I was like, mum, I'm not a real one. And they were like, yes, but it'll do, it'll do. my daughter is a doctor on EastEnders you know it was after all these years I became a doctor

13:53Mo Gilligan: now you as a science teacher is this true in that you taught Dizzy Rascal? Dylan Mills that's his real name that is what? yeah Dylan you know I used to teach at Langdon Park School in Tower Hamlets I taught always in the roughest schools in a city school. So I taught in Tower Hamlets, Dagenham and Enfield. And my first school was Tower Hamlets, Langdon Park, where Dylan Mills was. And, you know, these kids at that time, you know, in the early 2000s, they came from the council estates surrounding the school. So it was a Tower Hamlets back then, still is a bit now, deprived area, very working class.

14:43the kids were often from single parent families um a lot of them didn't know their fathers um some fathers were in prison um i had a lot i taught a lot of bangladeshi kids who had were part of two families so they had a father who had two wives so he'd spend six months with the wife in england and then he'd go off to bangladesh and spend six months with the wife over there so the kid wouldn't see the father for six months so i had a lot of those students shamima bagum who went to join isis she was in a school down the road oh wow yeah tower hamlets um and then i taught a lot of kids you know i taught some kids whose parents were drug addicts and it was typical inner city problems yeah inner city life but these kids i gotta tell you never felt sorry for themselves never felt hard done by never felt like they were missing out on anything they kind of used their situation to fuel their creativity like yeah some of them a lot of them were not the most academic they didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge but my god they had character

15:54Mo Gilligan: they had personality they had character and they knew and they always found ways to fuel that so with Dylan at Dizzy Rascal You know, he wrote the album Mercury Music Prize winning album Boy in the Corner. And that's about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being the boy in the corner at school, always getting kicked out of lessons. And what he did was when he got kicked out of lessons, he'd always go to the music room. And there was a fantastic teacher there who used to let him in and let him sit at the back and work out his own music. And it was better than him being on the street. It was better than him going around doing something, you know, unlawful or illegal.

16:36And that album, autobiographical about him, about his life growing up. So they were very good at fueling their life into creativity. Some boys, they went to play for West Ham in the under 16s team. They never made it as footballers or, you know, they never became Harry Kane or anything like that. But they fuelled that energy into stuff like that Yeah So a couple of them, they went to play for West Ham for a while And one girl, Chantel, she messaged me recently She was in my class A lovely mixed race girl who was not really academic She messaged me recently to say she'd set up her own business A car washing business Which she was running from the back of her car

17:25Mo Gilligan: so so she's that drive around she's a she runs a car washing business from the back of her car so she goes around washing people's cars from the back of operates from the back oh wow and this is what those kids were like and i think these days the kids are not like that real hustle yeah yeah The kids, there's something happened where the kids these days are missing something. And I don't know if it's because the kids these days, they don't smoke, they don't drink, they don't take drugs. They're not on anything. And you do need something to expand the mind. Listen, you're not going to create anything on 30 grams of protein.

18:07What are you going to do with that? What are you going to do with that? Wonderwall, they were off their face when they wrote that. but Beatles, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, they were on acid and heroin. They were high on something. I'm not saying people should all go out and do drugs, but something has to fuel that creativity. If you're just drinking protein and going to the gym, you're not going to create anything. Yeah, you go farting around the house for an hour, but that is not creative. But these kids that I taught, there was no, you know, some of them probably smoked weed and they did smoke and drink or whatever, But I think it was more their situation and their start in life that fueled them to do stuff.

18:50And they did some amazing stuff. Those kids, they've done amazing, a lot of them. And they've come from nothing, all of them.

18:57Mo Gilligan: Because didn't you see him at like a film festival? I saw him at a concert or something. And he came running up to me going, Miss, Miss. I'm like, you cannot call me Miss anymore because you're in your 30s. and I'm not your teacher and we're in public and you're running up calling me Miss Miss it sounds a bit weird but they still call me Miss no I still do that with my teachers it's like I still call them like Miss they've never known me as anything else yeah no you have I think it's I think it's it's the best sign of respect yeah when you've left school and if there's a teacher that's played a pivotal role yeah you still like one of my my teachers Miss Simpson she's a drama teacher she's like one of the reasons why I probably do this because she was like, look, you're really talented.

19:42Mo Gilligan: You should do performing arts. And I still, to this day, have to call her Miss. I know her name is Rory, but as a respect, but the teachers I don't like, I'm like, oh, there it is. There's Philip over there. I wonder how he's getting on in life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. So I taught in a few schools. I taught science, always taught science, physics, chemistry, biology. So you know what? A lot of kids, they weren't interested in science but you can still teach the kids something beyond your subject you can still inspire them in some ways like i love it now that these kids are in their 30s and i see them commenting under my videos on tiktok and instagram going she used to teach me she said and then somebody will go oh my she was a really good teacher and i i think oh yeah you know what that really i really love that that you followed me you're coming you're saying oh my god you remember me i i was a good teacher to you maybe i inspired you in some way i hope i've inspired you more since i've started doing comedy um but i love it that the kids write stuff like oh yeah yeah she was a really great teacher i love that yeah yeah when did you then make the leap to go into stand-up because am i right in hearing that like people have like almost regarded you was like one of the first Muslim women in the UK to do stand-up.

21:07I think in Britain I definitely was, you know, the first Muslim female stand-up in Britain. And one of few in the world because when I started, even ethnic comedians, I mean, there was a black circuit and there were black comedians, but black comedians have had a history of black comedy. You know, right from Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy. Murphy, you've had some of the greats in the world. Black culture has always been, you know, informed by stand-up comedy and arts and poets and writers, Maya Angelou and Oprah Winfrey. You've got all these. You have had a culture of art and comedy in your heritage.

21:55Asian people haven't had that. Muslims haven't had that. So when I started, I had nothing to kind of inspire me or kind of model myself on Or to say, oh well, you know, she did it before me So, you know, I can get a bit of inspiration from that I never had that I mean, when I started comedy in this country There was Ahmed Jalili, Paul Chowdhury, Shappi Korsandi None of them are Muslim And there was only kind of three or four of them and they were from different backgrounds you know iranian they weren't muslim although people used to lump them in with us muslims or you know you're all the same but there wasn't anything before me that came before me and i felt like because i was the first definitely in this country i i i took a lot of i took a lot of shit i took a lot of backlash without a doubt i experienced racism islamophobia prejudice i was hard i was harshly criticized you know i felt like i was i wasn't allowed to fail in secret i had to fail in public because so much spotlight was put on me as the first muslim female stand-up comedian every move I made every every joke I did was scrutinized and analyzed and I was reviewed harshly I used to have white comedians come up to me and go you are being you're being more harshly criticized than any other comedian and when other white comedians would say that to me I realized it was a prejudice towards me now and the expectations of me were so high I felt bullied I felt intimidated.

23:46I felt scrutinized. I was judged harshly. There was racism and there was definitely Islamophobia disguised as criticism. So, you know, there was one critic in particular who used to just pick on me the entire time, write awful stuff about me. You know, he'd even been banned from coming to one of my gigs by my publicist. And he bought a ticket to come in. to specifically write an awful review. He had been banned. He said, look, she doesn't want you in here. You never write anything good. Some of it is racist. Bought a ticket, came in to just do that. It was really disturbing. And I knew it was going on and everybody knew it was going on.

24:31We could all see it. But there was nothing much I could do about it because the culture was different back then. You know, we live in a different culture now where you have to be kinder, you have to be sensitive. you'd never get away with saying some of the kind of things that that kind of critic was saying about me at that time I think the times are different now and we have to be careful what we say and there's social media now and there's a power in social media because if somebody says something like that I remember him saying something like oh you know she's doing jokes about Primark and mundane things what a waste of a good Muslim She could be talking about, you know, giving us an insight into 9-11 or terrorism or why Muslims are doing this.

25:17I was seen as I wanted to be a comedian. I didn't want to be a political spokesperson. Every time some Muslim did something, I had to explain why they did it. I mean, we don't all have one big WhatsApp Muslim WhatsApp group where everybody knows what every other Muslim is doing. So for me, for them to expect that, that's racist. You want me to explain why other Muslims are behaving badly and give you an explanation for that? I don't know these people. Why do you think that I have an explanation for that? To explain all Muslim behavior, all Asian behavior. So that kind of thing now, you could call that out on social media and you could you could really say, you know, that's racist.

26:01You know, you're bullying me. You're ganging up on me. You're, you know, you're single me out as something different. But back then there wasn't the power of social media and everybody could see it going on. But as you know, in comedy, we don't have a union. We don't have anybody governing our profession. So things went on that were just brushed under the carpet because there was nobody to manage this. and there was no power in kind of vocalising what was happening because nothing would be done about it.

26:40Mo Gilligan: What was it like playing some of the clubs? Because I know you was doing like some of the Jonglers circuits and stuff back then, which I look back as, I was still very young in my comedy journey and I think I'd done just the end of Jonglers. But understanding is like you might do a Friday, two on a Friday, two on a Saturday. But, and I use Jonglers as the example of like, you know, like a bit of comedy, have some food. I think it was like, because they franchised it and stuff. But what was it like playing some of those clubs back then as well? Well, I have to say when I started out, there were certain groups on the circuit that went out of their way to support me and give me gigs and help, you know, help me to get better by booking me to play their clubs.

27:28The black circuit, ever since I have started, has always been immensely supportive to me and to Asian comics in general, because I think they've seen us as another ethnic minority, as a minority, not just in the world, not just in this country, but in comedy, which when I started was mainly white and male, run by white males, was white males. Bookers of clubs were white males Or the comedy writers were white males So I felt like People like Mr C John Simmet People like this were Always hugely supportive to Asian comics And always booked me for their black gigs So I'd turn up And it would be all black audience All black comics And you know I felt like This is a real challenge It was like going into a bear pit sometimes But it made me a better comic And what was good about these black bookers was If you did badly It didn't matter They'd still book you again They'd still give you another chance To be shit again If you died John Seymour would go No, no, no, don't matter Book me again And if you did badly again He'd still book you again eventually you'd start to get better and better the white circuit just never gave me that chance yeah if i died once as a woman and as a as an asian woman as a muslim i'd never get a chance again and i'd hear other female comics say as well you know what you just get one chance if you do badly you'll never get booked again whereas men they got many chances men i started with got many chances it was okay for you to be mediocre you'd get booked again yeah but as a woman if you if you were if you were if you did badly you wouldn't get booked again so i always felt so nervous doing junglers because i always felt like god i had to do well all the time yeah i had to do well all the time and sometimes you know some of the junglers were rough you know i remember going into one where there was some drunk woman on a table with her knickers around her ankles because she was so drunk on top of a table and I was coming onto the stage and it was like you'd see really drunk people they'd be eating they'd be talking you know people would try to chat each other because people used to go there to try and pick up men and women you know and it was like a pickup joint it was like people would go out for dinner people were on a date night people all kinds of people would be there and some jonglers were worse than others and I always felt like I was always so nervous because I felt like if I didn't do well I'd never get booked again I remember doing a weekend in Leicester and you know what sometimes it would just go all right because that was the crowd you're never gonna take the roof off and you didn't die but you just kind of got a few titters like

30:33And you'd think, well, you know what? I didn't die. I didn't get booed off. Nobody heckled me. And you'd think, oh, my God, I did all right. I remember doing a weekend once in Leicester. And then the booker from Jonglers ringing me up. I did the Friday and the booker rang me up on Saturday afternoon and she went, what happened last night? And I was thinking, I did all right. I didn't get booed off I didn't die she said well I heard it didn't go very well because it was one of those gigs which was like and she said I heard it didn't go very well I said well it went alright she said well can you can you be funnier tonight that was she said can you be can you be funnier tonight I said I'll try my best I mean I only had my little set of 15 you've got 15

31:23Mo Gilligan: say 15 I'm going to do and I was stretching that I mean I was thinking, so I've got to do the same set tonight, but just be funnier. And honestly, you'd always be nervous of getting a phone call after the Friday that, oh my God, they were going to cancel you for the Saturday or, you know what, they'd shorten you set from 15 or 20 down to 10. You know, it was always high pressure, jonglers. It was always high pressure. And I was always nervous about doing it. And people used to heckle back then or boo you off. Yes. or just go ah or do that sarcastic laugh there's always that laugh and you're like am i doing well oh my god am i doing well or am i not doing well um and you know what it was so bad if you didn't die if somebody didn't throw anything at you or if they didn't flash you before your time was up you just thought my god i survived I survived I survived I think what I've always loved about and I again I didn't do many junglers just a couple probably Portsmouth Southampton to name a few but it did give me almost like a a reality check into okay this is the side of comedy that I I don't really want to perform at these clubs but I feel like it's almost a rite of passage because when you get the ones that are good you're like ooh I know the difference now Yeah.

32:49I mean, I've done so many horrendous gigs in my life. I've died so many times. I've died in so many places. I've really run for my life at times. I remember doing a gig where I had to leave through a window in a toilet in the back room because people were chasing me. Really? Through the club, yeah. And I had to leave because I thought they were going to kill me. Is it? And I had to leave through a toilet window in the toilet in the back room because that was the only way out of the building. Because I thought these people were going to kill me because they were offended at something I said and they just didn't think I was funny and I thought they were going to chase me.

33:35Because the worst thing is when a gig has gone badly, you do not want to face that audience.

33:40Mo Gilligan: Oh, get me out. Get me out of the room. You can't walk through the audience when you know it's gone badly. You don't want to face these people. So I've left through toilet windows. I've left through back doors, fire exits, you know. I mean, I've just had so many bad gigs in my time. Ain't it humbling, though, like when you've had a bad gig and you're driving or you're by yourself on a train or whatever it is and you're just sitting there and nobody knows on this train or when you're by yourself. And it's that piece of like, I absolutely died. But you know what? Here we are and I'm on a motorway and I'm by myself.

34:18It's the worst thing. The reflection. It's the worst thing having to drive back after a gig or a show for a four hour car journey. When you've died and you're on your own in that car. On your own. And nobody is there to tell you otherwise. No one, no one. Oh, Shazia, it wasn't that bad. No, no, it was that bad. It's just you in your mind. It was probably worse than you think it was.

34:48Mo Gilligan: It was absolutely awful. And you have to sit with that pain. Oh, you have to. You have to sit with that pain in your mind and you replay it. And you replay it. And you know the truth. People can always, you know, sugarcoat stuff for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, some people, when they get really famous, they have all these yes people around them and go, oh, you know what, Mo? It wasn't that bad. You were all right. You did well. But I think nobody knows the truth more than you do. 100%. And the truth, it's in your mind. You know how it went. You know how. And you've got to sit with that for four or five hours driving back.

35:29And you're thinking. and I think it's the hard it's the hardest thing when you have to drive for hours on your own

35:37Mo Gilligan: in your mind and the motorway is not the motorway that got you there where there's loads of cars and it's just you there's yeah there's dark someone's got their high beams on and they put them off and you're like oh my god this is so lonely it's that when people say comedy's hard I don't think the actual comedy is hard. I don't think the writing of it or performing of it is hard because that is a joy to us. That's why we do it. We love to do that. And we love to see people laughing. We love the feeling of laughter. It's joyful, it's healing, it's elevating, it's transformative. You know, comedy and laughter is so many things.

36:21and that's why we do it because we love that feeling we love to see people laugh we love to bring joy to people but I think when when they say that comedy is hard I think it's the solitude of it yeah when it goes badly you know there's nobody there to make it feel better the driving of it you're driving after a gig and it's so hard um to take that in what I love about comedy when it goes

36:45Mo Gilligan: wrong you have to it's like you're saying you have to sit with that performance for maybe as long as you're ready to either admit that you're like okay maybe i need to write better or the crowd or what could i have done or when's the next show when is it coming and i think it's the sitting with it that it doesn't matter what you're doing you're washing the dishes and you're like oh god i remember i said that line it didn't work and the thing is the audience may forget it yeah they may forget they may forget you they may forget they may forget it they may they have been they may have been so drunk they may not remember the night but you never forget you don't you don't never forget so humbling you never but you've performed in loads of places you've performed in like pakistan where you're from as well kosovo as well yeah i've performed in crazy places i've I performed in Pakistan, in Karachi and Lahore at the Gaddafi Stadium as part of the Lahore World Performing Arts Festival.

37:44I performed toward India many times, Thailand. When Jonathan Atherton, he was a famous comedy promoter in the Far East. A lot of comedians worked with him. He used to do tours of the Far East. um i did uh kuala lumpur jakarta singapore malaysia with him and he was an australian guy he's passed away now and he was mad as a lot of people in comedy are but you know he used to take british comedians out there and do tours i know jeannie ashore used to do them as well and i I remember saying to her, you know, he's asked me to do this tour out there. You know, it's all over Malaysia, Singapore. And she said, oh, you must do it.

38:33She said, because the experience, it's not just the comedy and performing there. The experience of being in those countries and seeing different cultures and being with different people and being with comics from another part of the world. She said, you will learn so much and it will really transform your comedy. so I went out there and I you know what I started comedy when I was really young I was about 24 and I had never seen any my parents were very strict as I said I'd been anywhere in life I'd done anything you know I I just didn't know much and I went out there and my god it was it was such an experience like I remember going to Singapore and doing shows in Singapore at the Esplanade Theatre which was like 3 ,000 seater, massive the shows were always sold out I'd be on with American comedians

39:24Mo Gilligan: I remember doing some shows with Max Amini and he's now really really big but like he's been at this a long time and I supported him on tour for a while and we toured Singapore together and you would see you know he's from LA, lives in LA he's Iranian, you'd see people from different backgrounds and different parts of the world and how they saw things and how their comedy was and it it would influence you and you you know what you'd become inspired by it think my god this is this is really different and then jonathan was mad and he used to take us to mad places after these gigs it was just really i don't think if i was doing comedy i would ever see those things or experience those Yeah, because comedy allows you to travel to places you wouldn't necessarily go to for holiday, if that makes sense.

40:17I've never been to like Singapore, Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta. I've never been to these places before I did comedy or Kosovo I performed in. I've never been there. What was that like? That was the British Council took me there. because they wanted me to go and do comedy there for the army, for people that had fought in the war in Kosovo. And I remember it being really, really cold. It was like November, December time. It was freezing cold. And the British Council took me over there. There was me and a Swedish comedian. And we both had to do an hour. He was Swedish. He talked in English, though, and I did mine.

41:01But we turned up. There was no microphone. There was no stage. There was no seating. It was freezing cold. Everybody was standing around in their coats. And I there was like a makeshift little block of wood. And I had to stand on that and just talk in this room in the in the freezing cold. It was like an igloo where everybody was standing and they were wearing their coats, only men, and a lot of them did not speak English. And I had to do an hour.

41:32Mo Gilligan: An hour? An hour. My God. Oh, my God. And I was, you know, I'd only been doing comedy a few years. The hotel was freezing cold. We slept with our clothes and boots on in the bed. It was that cold. Oh, my God. And I, because they didn't speak English that well, I had to go through some woman's handbag to kind of create comedy through that. So I went through some woman had a handbag on the front row, went through a handbag and the handbag had some weird stuff in it. And I managed to drag that out for about 20 minutes and people were laughing. and it was you know what everything had been bombed it was it was Kosovo it was it was in Pristina everything had been bombed it was like the third world it was like there was nothing to see there things had been decimated and I it was just a really crazy experience yeah but I have never been to Kosovo before that and I have never been to Kosovo since.

42:47So comedy, you know, took me there. I hear a lot of comedians say, well, comedy changed my life and, or saved me. Comedy saved me. Comedy changed my life. People say this, I've heard comedians say it, and it's, it's that, it's i mean it changed my life in the sense that i've never traveled so much i've never been to places i've never been to before i've met people i've never met before i've been in situations like after i did performed in pakistan at the world performing arts festival at the gaddafi stadium two days later uh suicide bombers blew it up yeah they wow they hadn't even seen my act I mean I don't think it was anything to do with the comedy I think it was just the fact that they were having an arts festival

43:41Mo Gilligan: and people there were some people that felt like that was not Islamic or it wasn't good so a couple of days later some suicide bombers had blown up that stadium and I'd been in all kinds of situations like this where I just if I wasn't doing comedy I would never go to these places I'd never experience anything like this and so it's been really I mean it's been a rollercoaster Talking about experience what's your experience been like when you started to you know do a lot more mainstream TV because you were speaking about panel shows before but you know you've done Have I Got News For You Mock The Week Have you done QI?

44:25Yeah

44:27Mo Gilligan: How's your experience when you're doing like mainstream television? Look, I don't think panel shows are for everybody. You're very good though. I don't, you know what, I didn't, I still don't feel that some panel shows are for me. I don't feel like I can shine on them. There's certain ones like Would I Lie To You, which I love to do. That's a good one. That's a good one because, you know what, you get to tell your story. It's not like you've got to press the buzzer and you've got to get it and then you've got to say something funny immediately it's not like that you get the chance to say your story and then you get asked questions about your story so you get to elaborate on it so you really get to shine in your in your little story you know but but back in the day it was competitive and you know people would talk over you people would jump in you had to be funny immediately it's not for everyone and you know there are so many forms, mediums for comedy now, thanks to the internet.

45:28That, you know, I love stand up. Stand up is my thing. I love to do stand up. I love sitting at home writing. What do I want to say to my, what do I want to say to my people? What do I want to say to the people? What is it that I want to say? And then going out and saying that to people. And I love stand up and the panel show is not for everybody. and you can be a great stand-up and not do well on a panel show. So it's not a good place for you to showcase your talent because you're a great stand-up, but you're never going to shine in this format. So I think you have to choose, you have to maybe try all of the different formats.

46:09I mean, it's great now because people who love stand-up film their stand-up, then put it on the internet. People see it and go, oh my God, you really made me laugh. I love that. I'm going to come and see you on tour. yeah and if you are if you love stand-up that's the best format for you you don't need to go on a panel show and try and crowbar some material in uh you know after 30 seconds and then try and sell off a tour off the back of that no one's going to come and see you off the back of that and it's definitely changed i feel like there was the time maybe 15 years ago where you could go on

46:43Mo Gilligan: like a mock the week yeah then you might go on maybe let's say um like live at your apollo yeah and then launch a tour. Yeah. But it's, the landscape has changed over and over. Now, if you do those shows, you de-launch a tour. Don't come to me, I've done all my material. I've got nothing left. I'm not going to see them. I've seen them online, but I'm not going to see them again. But now, what's great is you can go on Instagram, you can go on TikTok and put like a 30 second clip off of something. And people will come and see you off the back of that. And what's great is for comedians who never got a break on TV.

47:18Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know, you've got these comedians who've been doing it for 30, 40 years and they never got a break on TV because they were too old, they were too working class, they were a woman, you know, all those prejudices that people had back in the day. Now those comics are filming their stand-up, putting it on the internet and it's blown up for them. And they're selling tours off the back of that. And I think that is brilliant because they don't need the TV anymore. They don't need to be on TV shows. I mean it's taken a long time coming but they've got there and they've got there on their own terms and it's also they can attract the audience that necessarily they wouldn't get if you're just a club comic and you're just doing the clubs you're doing the rounds but you now attract an audience who's like oh I would never see this guy unless I was seeking out like active comedy and going to the club so seeing this person that makes me want to go and watch just them as well because back in the day you say you do a panel show people would come and see you because you i remember going to edinburgh and i remember seeing some people they were trying to decide what shows to see and they'd go out and order them i'm not going to see them i haven't heard of them i've heard of them so they'd only go and see people who were famous yes so they'd go and see people who were famous because they'd been on tv but then they'd go and see their stand-up and they wouldn't really enjoy it yeah but because you you try you're trying stuff out like you know any of the big comics you go to edinburgh they're like oh I'm gonna try some stuff out yeah but also they're seeing them just because they've been on tv yeah but now people are seeing people because they've seen their stand-up yeah pure stand-up on the internet yeah they've gone oh I like his point of view I like his comedy I want to go and see him now so what you see is what you get yeah has the internet been a help for yourself as well when it comes to you know being a comic but you're also like you know you're you're an asian pakistani woman and you know you're putting your comedy out there on the internet that's going to reach places like you're saying like where you're from pakistan that wouldn't really see comedy from you're like oh this is a british you know this lady's british but well back in the day like i said you know there was the black circuit and i'd go and do a black gig and all black the audience would be all black because they were coming to see people that looked like them that were talking their experience back to them.

49:47Muslims and Pakistanis, we've never had that. When I started comedy, the audiences were all white.

49:54Mo Gilligan: Unless I was doing a back gig, the audiences were all white. And I was talking about my experience of being a Muslim Pakistani woman from Birmingham, and a lot of white people were not getting that because that's not their experience. But now things have changed where you are getting, I'm doing, I did the Comedy Queens tour, which was five Muslim women and all Muslim female audiences. And we did the O2 and sold it out three times. You know, we did the Bingley Hall in Birmingham. We're doing 2000, 3000 seater venue, massive venues. And it was organized by 26 who were three who are three Muslim who are three Muslim men.

50:42And they set up this tour because they felt there was nothing for Muslim women to come and watch. There was nobody on stage reflecting their experiences back to them. So these three Muslim men, OE, Saif and Shef are their names, and they are revolutionary, really, what they've done. by creating Comedy Queens, which is the Muslim female comedy tour. Me, Fatih Al-Ghori, Ola Labib, Fatih Salih, and Zayn, who's an American comic, and Yasmin El-Hadi. All of us, five, six Muslim women playing these venues, only Muslim women in the audience. And honestly, you know, to see them laughing and to perform to them and have their experience reflected back at them.

51:36It was amazing. It's been amazing. And the tour is still going on. Then we're doing another one soon. And that's never happened before. And then mainstream clubs, they have Asian comedy nights at the Glee, Muslim comedy nights at the Glee with men and women on. And it's the first time really in history that we're seeing people that look like us coming to see us because the jokes that we're doing, the material that we're doing is about us, about our experience, about our life. You know, when I stand on stage and I say, you know, my mum used to say to me, where have you been, you know? You're five minutes late home.

52:14You are a prostitute. Asian people will laugh at that because they know they had the same thing. It was also very... White people are like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Did you call childlike? that's just terrible. How did you get through that? Oh my God, were you traumatised? After one gig, I remember one white woman coming up to me and going, have you had therapy? Like, this was just life back then. Whereas Asian people just laugh at it and go, oh my God, oh my God, your mum as well, my mum as well. Oh my God, did they just, were they looking for anything to beat you with? A slipper, a rolling pin, whatever.

52:56It was like, that was our experience. And to have that opportunity to do those jokes and to have people laugh and go, yeah, that was me too. That is so liberating, not just for the comedian, but for the audience as well. And to be able to laugh at that. That's like the equivalent of what Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, you know, in this country, you know, Richard Blackwood, lenny henry did years ago yeah was doing that material to black audiences and everybody laughing but we've only that we've only just started to have that yeah it's still very very new it's new

53:32Mo Gilligan: for us now and people forget you know when they see you know the success of someone doing a tour or whatever he's like this is still fresh there's still an audience member who is still used to going to a headline show and it's just like oh wow this is this this wasn't a thing like 10 years ago yes we had like black and asian comedy shows but in terms of to be amongst the same names even on like a ticket master or yeah a live nation that is still quite new yeah it's still it's still new and it's taken us 10 15 years of honing our craft to get here and it's still new and it's it's a new thing and i think you know when people say to me to you know do people get offended at your comedy or do people get offended at what you say?

54:21I think in the beginning people, you know, they did get offended and the reason was is because they'd never had anybody say these things before. Yeah. And you're joking about things for the first time and people don't know how to take it.

54:36Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And we've always been on the defensive, Asian people have always been on the defensive because we've always had people making jokes about us, you know. They have always been doing jokes about us. we've always been the butt of the joke. Now we are telling the jokes. So the dynamic has changed. So we've always had to defend ourselves because we were offended because we had white people, Bernard Manning, making jokes about Muslim women. So we were offended because you were taking the piss out of us. But now we're taking the piss out of ourselves. And we are taking the piss out of ourselves to our own people.

55:18so we're allowing ourselves to laugh at ourselves so that power dynamic has changed now so in the beginning people were offended because we were used to people making jokes about us yeah yeah of course and so and then it was like oh one of our people is also making jokes about us and so it's taken a bit of time for people to realize that um we are make we're sending ourselves up and we're we're also you know laughing at ourselves and about our you know

55:49Mo Gilligan: the things that we go through yeah just like things that are like silly things that only yeah yeah yeah yeah that you're like this is a joke if you know you know and if you don't know it's okay you're getting an introduction in you can tell it to your mates but we really understand this in the room yeah i i used to do this joke in the beginning where i used to say you know when I was growing up in Birmingham in the 80s and 90s, the worst thing for an Asian girl was to go out with a black man. Well, first of all, I mean, to go out with any man, you know. But like in Birmingham, it was like my dad used to say, if I ever catch you with a black man, I will burn you.

56:27And I used to say, well, then I'll be black too. And in the beginning, my God, Asian people used to laugh so hard at that because they knew in the 80s and 90s, if you're growing up in Birmingham and you're an Asian girl, you could not be seen with a black man or any man. But like, you know what, that was a bad thing at that time. And my God, Asian people used to laugh so hard. Some black people used to get offended. But if you were from Birmingham, you knew that was true. And people were like, we've never been able to laugh at this before. We knew it was true and we knew it went on, but we weren't able to laugh at it because nobody spoke about it.

57:11Yeah. And nobody joked about it. But now it's like, if I do that joke now, everybody laughs. Black people laugh, Asian people laugh. Because it's kind of an in joke that we know is true that that's what happened in the 90s in Birmingham.

57:23Mo Gilligan: What do you want your legacy to be? Because, you know, it's one of the first, you know, Pakistani, Muslim, British born women. Like that's a pioneer for so many other comics. like do you ever start to look at that sometimes as you start to perform and you have people that come up to you and say listen I grew up watching your stuff how does how do you ever start looking at people I never I never think about that too much I never I always like to I always like to work on my craft and cut the comedy and doing better and and just being the best comic that I could possibly be I love I love my craft I love comedy and I love and that's why I do it and And I think, you know, if you are a role model, if you've inspired someone, that's kind of like an offshoot of what you do.

58:11But I think the inspiration comes from being great at what you do.

58:16Mo Gilligan: Yeah. That you should always, I think, as an artist, you should always focus on that. Because when you're good at something and you that's people will always be inspired by that. Yeah. But I hope that I, you know, I hope that I just I love it when people say you made me laugh. I was having a bad day. I was depressed. And then I saw one of your clips and it made me laugh. And it brightened up my day. I love that. Yeah. Just bringing the joy to people. Just, you know, because life can be hard. Life is hard for people. And if you can bring some joy to them and make them laugh, I love that. I love that about it.

58:56Yeah.

58:57Mo Gilligan: It's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I really mean that, Ran. I know we only met a couple of months ago. but like that's a long time yeah no no no but like i i grew up watching you you on television as well do you know what i mean so whenever i you know especially for someone i haven't even had a chance to really meet properly as well i think people think that comedians all know each other yes and they've all met each other and i and that's just not true is it just because you work in the same industry it doesn't mean that you always yes yeah that you always meet with people like there's people i've never met i've never met in comedy but i feel like i know them yeah yeah because i feel like you you you know them in a sense of i know what you're going through or what that feels like but also maybe i don't but i kind of have an idea of what that must feel like too as well i i heard uh gary lineker saying yesterday he'd never met harry kane oh yeah i i heard him saying yes he'd never met harry kane and all these people had written comments underneath the clip on on instagram saying i cannot believe you have not met harry kane and i think it's the same in every the every industry is that just because two people are famous or they're well known that people assume well you must know each other or you must have worked together you must have known each other but that it's the same in comedy like these people i have never i've never met and and it's just i worked with you a couple of months ago and that was the first that was the first time yeah yeah yeah I've done that show many times and it's the first time I've met a lot of people on there but honestly Shazia you're an absolute pioneer oh thank you like no you are like there's so many and one I love doing these interviews because I know that there's one there's people that get to watch this and really experience it in real time and just hear you free-flowing how you feel and what your journey's like but also how many people it inspires as well from the world of comedy where we feel like we have an outlet that we can tell our stories and understand the struggles but also the joys that come in those struggles you know you can laugh about you know having to try and climb out of a window but at the time you fear for your life i lost a shoe in that incident but there's no joy without struggle yeah so shazia you're back on tour i'm back on tour My show is called Prude.

1:01:22I'm a prude, Mo. Come on. Apparently. Some man called me a prude. I said, I'll show you. I'll do a show about this now. Yeah. He called me a prude. So I've got a new show. It's on tour, Prude. It starts next year, March and April. All tickets are available for my website, www.shazia-merza.com, or on Ticketmaster. and I'll be doing Soho Theatre, Walthamstow in London. Yeah. Birmingham, I will be doing the Glee, Leeds, Manchester, Salford-Lowry. Yeah. You know, going Hayes, Beck Theatre. I'm going all over.

1:02:01Mo Gilligan: So how many dates are you doing roughly? I'm doing roughly about, to start with, about 20. Okay. And you're just going to ease them in? Yeah, I ease them in. I'm starting off doing just March and April next year because my previous tour, I did 103 dates. That is mad Because it just kept selling out Selling out Selling out And so I kept extending it But it was exhausting Yes So I want to just start off doing Just March and April next year 2027 I would love people to come and watch Oh no no no Listen If they watch this episode Really They will definitely buy tickets Everybody's welcome I feel like we've got good conversion rates Really Of people coming on And then They watch or they buy the single Or they buy the tickets Do they So yeah Have you got any international dates that you're going to do?

1:02:46I will do, I probably will do Ireland and I might do some in New York as well. Yeah. Because I've performed in America a lot over the years. Yeah. San Francisco, New York and LA mainly.

1:03:01Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Yeah. I don't risk my life going to other areas. But the tickets are all on your website. Yeah. They can get them from my website or on shazio-merza.com or from Ticketmaster. So get them tickets. get the blood clots in kids tell them again but it's been a pleasure and this has been your beginning middle and end thank you so much thank you thank you hey what's up people my name is Mo Gilligan I just want to thank you so much for listening and watching my podcast now a lot goes into making this podcast as you can imagine I might be the person that's in front of the screen but it's really about the people that are behind the cameras and what I'd really appreciate what you could do for them is one give this a like that'll be great hype it up that'll be amazing but most importantly if you could subscribe if you could just hit that little bit just there and subscribe um the reason why that helps is it helps us build a community what people like what they want to see more of and most importantly it gets these podcasts straight to you so you don't even have to look for them anymore and how cool is that now listen if you do want to watch any other episodes you can check out this episode down here and this episode just down here i need you mo gilligan take care peace Thank you.