Grace Carter: I Signed a Record Deal at 19… Then Realised They Didn’t Get Me

0:00Host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever. So carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want. Only at Whole Foods Market.

0:30Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Beginning, Middle and End podcast. And what a treat I have for you lovely people today. She started writing music at such a young age. That's right. Leaving her humble beginnings of Kensal Rise and moving to Brighton, which was the hub of her inspirational musical journey from picking up a guitar, being self-taught when it comes to the piano, and having inspirations like Alicia Keys. She went on to being signed at just 19 years old. She then supported the likes of Dua Lipa, Rag & Bowman and Lewis Capaldi to just name a few.

1:10Mo Gilligan: But now she's on her journey and what a journey it is because her new album is out right now, Saturn's Return. Please welcome to the podcast, Grace Carter. Thanks for coming on the pod. No, thank you. I know you're in a heavy promo run and stuff. well I don't know release run we shouldn't really call it promo run do you know what I mean it's a release run I'm coming out I'm defrosting yes yeah that's what's happening When Saturn Returns that's your album yes it's out in all good record stores online streamers all of that stuff we're working on physicals at the moment but yes it's all streaming and you called it like it's you it's the adult adolescence yeah that's what you've said yeah and this is you leaving your your 20s essentially yeah would you call it that yeah Because you'll be 30, what, next year?

1:56Mo Gilligan: Ooh. I'm so ready. I'm so ready. I've never been more ready for anything in my life. I feel like when you're like 26, 27, you can feel it like creeping up on you. The fear creeps in. 110 ,000%. And then 28, I was like, okay. Actually, 27, my life fell apart. And that's kind of what the album's about. Because that's in Saturn's return. That's actual, yeah. You hit 27. Yeah, so the Saturn return is basically sat and returned to the position it was in when you were born and it also kind of represents this time where your life falls apart and you have to rebuild it and prepare yourself for your 30s.

2:31Mo Gilligan: I believe it because when I was 29 it was, everything was going on. It's a lot. It was like, you know, you're like, what the fuck is going on? And you're like, am I a bad person because I'm being tortured right now and what have I done to deserve this? Yes, 110%. That is the energy. So yeah, I'm nearly 30 and yeah now I'm excited I feel like I've like waded through waded through all the rubbish and now I'm like okay cool I think I'm preparing myself for that you know what it is right I think when I looked back at when I left my 20s I was like good riddance and I know it sounds so cliche yeah when people say like life begins at 30 but it really does because all the stuff you cared about in your 20s overnight you're just like I don't care and I don't know if it's like because you're like well I'm 30 now yeah I'm a woman I should go to a dinner party Yes It's so weird It's so hard to explain But I went through the exact same thing Of like leaving my 20s Hit 30 And it felt like Okay now I've got to do adult decisions Based on like this next 10 years Yeah And I think you're just sitting in yourself I call it the adult adolescence Because it does just feel like You go for a second puberty in your 20s Where it's like you're just adjusting to adulthood Like I think until very recently, I still existed in like my child's mind a lot of the time and like my reactions to things, the decisions I made, the chaos that was in my life, like all these different things were so childlike.

3:59And I think that I've had to, yeah, just like push myself to be, be an adult. I love how I'm like physically moving my body to like make myself taller. But yeah, just like be grown.

4:10Mo Gilligan: How does it feel like when you've now got the album out? Because we were just saying just off camera that it's like the pressure of like it's there now and it can be judged. Does it feel like a weight off your shoulders in some ways? Yeah, I think I've had such a turbulent career that it kind of, I just have so much excitement. I think I'm very proud of myself. I've got to a place where I've made this body of work because so much of me probably would have stopped. Like there's been so many moments in my career where I've been like, you know what? this is a long day yeah this is a lot and so I think more than anything I'm just so happy on a personal level that I've made a body of work that is honest and vulnerable and true and is a representation of who I am and I just I love it so much so it's just yeah I feel really excited that people that might have heard of me before are gonna hear it and I don't know be happy that there's finally new music yeah yeah but also like loads of people are discovering me for the first time which also just feels really exciting that's always quite nice as a nice like breath of fresh air where you get someone that is like oh like i've just heard your and there's a weird ego like because i'll be honest there's a weird ego i'm like what i've been around i've been doing this thing but then there's also part of you that's like wow like there's like eight billion people i don't even know how many people on this earth and every day someone is listening to your stuff watching it discovering it it's passing them and you don't even like realize yeah i mean no it is it's it's really cool and i think because i started releasing music in 2017 it's now 2026 yeah and i'm now nearly 30 yeah like it's just a completely different thing so i'm almost more grateful for the fact that like people are discovering me now when i actually know who i am and what it is that i want um that almost yeah it feels more kind of correct because i met you at wimbledon yes a few years with my mum she loves you yeah no we got your I remember your mum was there.

6:06Mo Gilligan: I think we were all on the table or something like that. Yeah, we were in the same box thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember who we went with. I think it was Pimms. It was Pimms. Big up Pimms, you know. I've been a couple of times with Pimms, you know. Yeah, and I was quite drunk. I didn't know Pimms would get me drunk. So that was my first time having Pimms. I'd never had it before. And I remember I got there mad late. So for me, Wimbledon, because I'm north. It's long. It's going all the way around. Yeah, yeah. And I remember I never had Pimms before. And I was like, bro, this is some nice juice.

6:38Mo Gilligan: It's like juice, yeah. With some apple in it. Some strawberries. Lovely. I was like, bro, this is the drink that everyone's been going on about. And then I was watching tennis. And then they give you the little thing in the cans. Yeah. Ah, great, great time. Did you enjoy it with your mum? Yeah, I used to play tennis as a kid. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I've lived some lives. But yeah, so I enjoyed it. And she, I just like, there's certain things I'm very close with my mum. Okay. But there's certain things I won't take her to, but there's certain things I love to take her to. And Wimbledon is just like, I feel like everyone takes their mums to Wimbledon.

7:12It's just the perfect thing. I can't lie.

7:14Mo Gilligan: When I seen everyone with their mums, I was like, oh, I should have maybe brought my mum here. Next time. Yeah. No, maybe not. Yeah. I know the vibes now. Yeah. But you, so, so you're originally from London. Yeah. And then you, you moved to Brighton, right? Yeah. Yeah, what was that like? So I'm from Kensal Rise and I lived there till I was nine. Eight or nine. I always say nine and then my mum, I just have my mum's voice in my ear like, it was eight and I'm like, same thing. But we moved to Brighton on my ninth or eighth birthday. Okay. The actual day. My mum was like, forget about your friends.

7:51We're going to take you over here now.

7:53Mo Gilligan: Take the balloons on card with you. You've got to go. Yeah, it was, listen, I think I'm very grateful. I've had a very, I have a very supportive mum and it's amazing but as like a non-white child moving from London to Brighton at that age was like a massive challenge and probably the reason I started making music to be honest I was so like inside of myself and identity was such a big thing for me I did I just I I grew up with just my mum who's white and moving there there was just like no one really that looked like me other than the friends that I gravitated towards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was lovely.

8:33Brighton is a nice place in some ways, but I think that was kind of the start of my emotional, like, looking inside of myself journey of, yeah, then I started writing songs when I was 12, so.

8:45Mo Gilligan: Wow. Yeah. But I feel like Brighton is a place, though, for that, because I've gone to Brighton, one of the best places I get to do gigs, because everyone's just vibey. It is. It's a very, very liberal town. Do you know what I mean? It's very vibey. You can be in, like, going for a run in the morning and you'll see a group of people just swimming. Like, do you know what I mean? Just swimming, like, and it's freezing cold. And I'm like, hey, get out. And that's normal. That's normal. Christmas Day, people are in the sea. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. No, it is. There are some really beautiful parts of it.

9:17It's also very small. So you kind of, people kind of think Brighton is like London by the sea, people call it. But it's actually tiny. and everyone kind of knows everyone. But yeah, it is cool. And I have, it's where I started doing open mics when I was like 14, 15. Because I feel like it was good for that stuff. Yeah, for music, we have so many amazing, like Celeste is from Brighton. She went to my school. She was a few years above me. But Bragging Bowman, Rizzle Kicks, obviously. And also Jordan, like I grew up, we both grew up in Kensal Rise and moved to Brighton.

9:48Mo Gilligan: Because he's from Kensal Rise? Yeah, so I've known him since I was, there's a picture of him holding me as a baby. Sweet. Wow. Yeah, so then he obviously was in Brighton and Rizzle Kips were doing their thing and yeah just like there was a real scene there and there were things there's yeah there's a lot going on but I think I was quite inside of myself so was it you said you started writing music was it you say 8 years old 12 years old is it your stepdad gave you a guitar at 13 12 12 years old 12, 13 yeah I'm really bad with numbers don't worry it's okay with ages you can correct me yeah I'm like around that time yeah 12 my mum So I grew up with a single parent, love my mum.

10:28And suddenly she brought a man around and she was like, this is my boyfriend. And I was like, absolutely not. And I said to her, you have two years with him and then he has to be gone, which is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From a 12 year old. But his way of kind of connecting with me was he was a musician and is a musician. And he was like, he could see that I like to sing a bit. And so his peace offering was to give me a guitar. and he also could see how competitive I was and he basically challenged me to write a song with the guitar and that kind of was the start of everything so I wanted to prove that I could write a song and yeah first song I wrote was called Blank White Page about not being able to write a song and I just didn't stop after that I was obsessed

11:14Mo Gilligan: So did you teach yourself how to song write? Yeah Song write, sorry Yeah Wow, so how because I only discovered and I know this sounds bad, yeah but there's like a structure with songwriting I think a lot of us As hear a song You're like You just have a melody You put the chorus in there But there's like Very intricate things Yeah there's different like There are different Structures to songs I think my stepdad Probably showed me a bit Because he was a song He's a songwriter Okay And But I just listened to a load of music I was such a fan of Alicia Keys And Lauryn Hill And Adele Like when I was that age That was when Adele was like At the peak I was obsessed with her Yeah yeah yeah of course So I was listening to all these songs and probably kind of basing my songwriting off these chord structures and these songs I'd heard by my favourite artists.

12:02But yeah, I don't really remember ever being like a struggle. Like I just I remember it just clicking one day and being like, oh, my gosh, there's this thing that I can do where I can take myself to my room, talk about how I feel. And like no one has to hear about it until I'm ready for them to hear about it. Like I can just process my emotions. and I used to just sit on photo booth playing my guitar and singing yeah crazy yeah so did you

12:28Mo Gilligan: teach yourself how to play guitar yeah my stepdad taught me some chords and then I just blocked myself away I just the same chords with a capo like changing the key I was like just playing yeah and then I had some guitar lessons later on there was a thing in Brighton called Jam Brighton a guy called Gordon ran and basically any musician in Brighton probably went through jam writing yeah it was a way that we did like gigs and stuff and so yeah did you ever become the person where there was a party where you get the guitar and sing a song absolutely not i feel like i wish i was that person do you know what my mum used to make me yeah she used to like she'd have a dinner party or whatever and i'd be like it's entertainment time now grace go get the guitar and i'd sing a song about like my best friend i wrote a song called like best friend for never and I'd sing that to all my mum's friends but no I'm I'm still not that person and I really wish I was because I'm like what if one day like I'm in the room with Beyonce and like I need to sing and I'm just like hey can anyone play yeah I know myself I'd be like no I can't so yeah I need to get better but no I wasn't I'm not unless I've had a drink then then you're like hey is anyone's game yeah literally I've always wanted to play the guitar you should do it I know but I just feel like there's not enough hours in the day for me to just be in like alright we've had dinner guys yeah I'm gonna lock in now especially because I'm one of those people where I can't do the thing and show people until I've perfected it yeah so to be around my friends and be like guys check this out I want to be so good that everyone's like yeah but you you can do that quietly like my best friend is not musical well she loves music I feel like I can't say she's not musical because that's really harsh but she's not like she's a social worker yeah but at Christmas she was like I want to play saxophone I really want to play saxophone and she literally bought a saxophone she's been playing it every day for the past what are we in October 10 months yeah 10 months she can play summertime now really it is like there are moments where it's not fab but it's like wow I know that it's summertime saxophone is a is a one to bring out yeah like I've seen a few people just whip out a sax and I'm like yeah maybe that's your instrument I don't it's kind of smooth no It is smooth, but I'm not in any positions to be playing like, oh, your mum died.

14:51Mo Gilligan: Hey, pass me the sax. Pass me the sax. No, I hear it. I hear it. But do guitar. Yeah. Just like YouTube videos. So you taught yourself how to play guitar. Have you taught yourself to play any other instruments? And piano. Piano. Yeah, but I'm not good. Like, I can play enough to write songs. Yeah. I probably also could play enough to perform it, but I just, I like to move around. I like to have a band Yes Yeah yeah yeah But yeah no I taught myself Guitar and piano And yeah I'm not great at either But in the studio I will Yeah yeah yeah Sit at the piano When it's like It's time to work Yeah when it's time to cook I'm locked in But if you're trying to get me To do it for like A little like For vibes Jam session Probably not Come on play into Stella Yeah I'm alright Yeah like Respectfully no I can get the instrumental up On YouTube though Like yeah Yeah Do people do that to you as a singer?

15:44Mo Gilligan: Because as a comic, I'm always like, oh, tell us a joke. And I remember being in school and there was some of the girls that could sing. And it would be like, come, like, can you sing? Yeah, that gives me anxiety. You know, yeah. I don't like karaoke for that reason. Really? I feel like there's two types of singer. Yeah. There's like the singers that like want to get on that mic and sing. Yeah. And I love that. When I witness it, I'm like, wow, I love that. But there's also the singers that get on the mic and they're like, I have to either be really great Or like really bad So people don't think I'm taking it too serious I see, I see I'm doing Nicki Minaj super bass So you are like You're flipping it Of like I'm not going to give you The thing you expect I just want to do The thing I enjoy Yeah, I'm going to do The thing that like I'm not meant to be good at Because Filipino people Are banging singers On the karaoke Incredible Yeah, I had a friend once And at his party I say I had a party Like a little drink up And his dad got on the karaoke and his dad was half drunk but this man was singing Whitney Houston really yeah yeah yeah yeah it was like singing this but Filipino there used to be a microphone that you can get and I think you kind of plug it into the TV I'm not sure some of the Filipino people that watch this you might know but I feel like you plug it in and it had all the tracks on the microphone on the mic so you'd just be like alright cool like I don't know 17 and then boom 17 and it'll come up on the TV and does it have like a reverb on it as well you know when it's the echoey I feel like I don't know I feel like I want to say yes It has to But everyone was a Banging singer Like you're like Bro like How's everyone singing Like this I reckon it's got like A little auto tune on it Or something No maybe not I'm a hater But singing is like One thing I realised Singing is very It's so It's so hard But I Didn't also realise How much Well obviously Vocal training But there's like Things where you know Like your voice is Is like your money In some ways And if that goes Like there ain't no show there's like sorry I've got laryngitis yeah and you've got to like go to certain doctors and all that kind of stuff yeah no it's you have to be so careful I'm like I am as I've got older getting my second return I've become more sensible yeah yeah yeah with my voice um great blood there yeah literally no but when yeah I think like if I'm touring and stuff I just I don't drink I don't I go to bed early because the minute that goes it's over for you yeah and also I think as a singer and I talk to a lot of my friends who are singers about it too a lot of like your anxiety is linked to your voice too like the amount of times I think I've got tonsillitis when I don't it's just like a drive-thro yeah I wear mouth tape now though what's that?

18:25mouth tape I told someone else about this the other day you don't know what mouth tape is no I don't see you wear it over your mouth to keep your mouth shut when you sleep no yeah because like mouth breathers because if I sleep with my mouth open And then my throat's dry. Yeah. So I... I didn't know that. And also I just talk a lot. I should probably wear it in the day as well. Yeah.

18:45Mo Gilligan: A mouth tape. Because I've seen those people that have like, they can't breathe properly and they've got a... Oh no. Yeah. What? On oxygen? Yeah.

18:58Mo Gilligan: I'm not on that. You've toured with a lot of people though. Some of the names here like Julie Pye, Lewis Capoli, Georgia Smith, Frag and Bone Man. What's it like touring? like what one was it like supporting someone like that on tour but like what do you also learn in in the process as well yeah I feel like so yeah I started releasing music in 2017 and straight away I was touring like instantly my first tour was with Dua Lipa and I just learned everything I know now I feel like the last it's been like 10 years almost of my career I feel like those early years It's taught me everything. I think supporting artists, you just get to like have the best lesson ever in performing.

19:42Because you're seeing like Dua Lipa's show is so different from Lewis Capaldi's show, which is so different from I Taught With A Band Called Heim. Like they're all so different that you kind of take a bit from each one and learn the process. And also just on like a human level, I think being an artist, especially like a solo artist, is very lonely sometimes. So just kind of being in environments with other artists and building your community is such a big part of what makes it enjoyable. Yeah. But yeah, I've been able to perform in rooms I probably would have never got to play in on my own. And I think it's so interesting now when I'm looking at like this year and where I'm at now, it's kind of.

20:22I just, yeah, all those lessons I had then kind of feel like they've geared me up over a long period of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. for maybe what is going to come next, hopefully for me. But yeah, I've toured with some incredible people. When I like look, I'm like, it's kind of mad.

20:38Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. Does it feel like less pressure when you're supporting as well because you're like, well, I get to go on, do my thing. I can watch the show, but you've probably seen the show so many times. I can just kind of chill. You're done by like nine, eight, eight 30. It's like you're on for half an hour. You do a little like, and then you're off. Then you're in the next place. But yeah, it definitely is less pressure. but I think I'm I take it quite serious like I just I love performing it's like always been for me despite saying I don't sing in the living room at my mum's parties I love being on stage it's like this weird thing I feel like I step into a whole different version of myself when I'm on stage and I have my in ears in and I have my microphone I like I love it so yeah I I almost would treat it like it was my own show as well and just like really try and enjoy it and luckily for me everyone I've toured with has been so lovely and really actually made an effort to support me as a human being as well as an artist so it's been really has there been like situations where you're touring with someone and you're finding yourself in places and you're like oh my god what's going on here this is insane or someone wants to meet you or they want to message you and be like oh I've seen you at the show and yeah is that is that the same when you're supporting someone as well have you been in those positions yeah yeah i think because also that's what's so amazing about supporting people is there's a room full of people that probably have never heard about you ever before and suddenly you're like getting to introduce yourself to all these incredible human beings who just like love music and yeah but yeah i had i've had a few i mean host thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from whole foods market There are no antibiotics in their meat department ever.

22:25So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want. Only at Whole Foods Market.

22:45Mo Gilligan: A-Cast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing, and I've been waiting my whole life for a show like this one. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Three facts a week, each with the whole story behind it. The history class you actually wished you had in school. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. acast.com

23:27I once had like Lana Del Rey come to one of my shows and I was like that's kind of crazy yeah that was kind of lit I was like oh okay this is cool

23:37Mo Gilligan: can I ask you as a performer did someone tell you before or after after yeah after okay yeah like who would like yeah who would be the dream person you would have come to one of your shows I know if I had like another comic like if Dave Chappelle was in there and let's say he was it's different if he's on after me and he's like because then I'm like well he's just he's just going on after he's not really in it but if he was like if he's come to see me oh my god would you want to know before or after I don't know because like it's weird do you know what it is right I remember doing like when I was first starting to talk and it'd be like oh we've got there's this agent that's flown in and he's come to watch you and I was like yeah that's not really doing much for me I'll put on a good show yeah But I've had that before Like oh this TV person's in So I was like cool But if it's like I've never had a PR come To be like I'm coming to see you Not that I know of anyway Yeah you probably have but yeah But then it's weird Because some people will come And you won't know And you'll meet them like three years later And say yeah I came to the show Love that show I would have said hi I wanted to meet you What do you mean?

24:43Mo Gilligan: So yeah I think it would probably be like One of my heroes like Dave Chappelle or Kevin Hall Or someone like that Yeah who would it be for you? ooh like if like you know your manager comes in and they say by the way this person's at the show yeah and oh god that's so hard they're there and they would like to meet you after if it's if it's possible I feel like for child me Alicia Keys but I feel like she when I was a like a kid and I started making music and especially where I lived and not really seeing people that look like me around I looked to her as like I was just like wow like she's amazing and I want to be just like her when I'm older so like from a child perspective probably Alicia Keys or Adele or like anyone literally I'm like such a fan of so many amazing female artists mostly so when you go when you go to award shows yeah is it a is it like a networking thing or is it like I want to meet the person or is it just like enjoy the moment because in my world of comedy, you don't, we don't have award shows.

25:51Mo Gilligan: So you just kind of will, you might meet one of your heroes or someone that you just really admire just at maybe another comedy show or something. So I'm really intrigued to know what that would be like for a musician if like you're saying, you're at the Brits and you know, you're nominated or you're performing or you're just there. Let's manifest that please. Yeah, because that's the stuff that will probably happen. Do you know what I mean? It was worst. Like, no, no, no. Saturn returns. You know what I mean? Bellum. Saturn returns. It only makes sense. But that is definitely possible in the sense of you're nominated or even being in the same category as your idol.

26:25Mo Gilligan: Do you look at those things of like, this is a big networking event or this is just a day off and I get to kind of just meet my idols for my idols? Do you know what I mean? I feel like I just, whenever I've been to the Brits a few times and whenever I've been, I've just been in awe of like, I don't see it as a networking thing at all. I feel like the person in the corner that shouldn't be there. Yeah, okay. Oh my gosh. But it's just, yeah, just seeing everyone in their element and my friends, like I have so many friends that are artists as well and just like, I feel like those moments are the times that you get to see each other because everyone's on such different schedules.

27:06Mo Gilligan: Yeah. But I remember my first Brits I went to, I was sat on Dua's table and Stormzy came up to me and told me he liked my music and I was so gagged. I was like, he likes my music. This was a year, I was like 21 or 22, but I was like, oh my God, sorry. He loves my music. But I like, in all honesty, any that I've been to, I just feel irrelevant. I'm like, they'll know about me one day. They'll get it one day. So when you've been to these things and you're so young, like you're saying, you're 21 at the time, right? did it also feel like a, I could imagine the imposter syndrome because I feel that that same thing when you're in the room and you're like, oh God, this is a bit overwhelming and I've got to talk to people.

27:53Mo Gilligan: And, you know, you might go there with a manager and, you know, when people do that whole like, I don't know if you ever had this, but you've been with a manager or an agent or someone and they're like, yeah, this is this person? You don't, you got to know about this person. And you're like, oh, please don't do that. Someone done that yesterday and I met someone and they're like this you need to know about him this is the UK's Eddie Murphy I said please oh I love that though no it was really nice but I was like you might you might watch the comedy and be like I hate it no my thing is whenever people like say I do music I'm like and they're like oh I'm gonna go listen I'm like my automatic thing is to say you might hate it and I need to stop doing that I need to back myself more but I can't remember what you know about like when you go and when people are like introducing you to people and they're putting you in that mold of like this is you've got to know about this person yeah how how is those situations because you know you're young you're like 21 at the time i feel like when i look at it now in a hindsight way i think it's almost those things could be a bit damaging like as an artist a female artist in the music business i came into the business as a major priority on a major label probably like one or priority one or two on the label yeah and everyone was like you're going to be the next this and that and I was there was a lot going on and and I think at the time obviously you're like oh like you're being introduced to I don't know like the biggest artist in the world is like this is going to be our next but like when that doesn't happen that's also then like such a hard thing to come around from too because it's like you kind of feel like a failure or whatever there's yeah I think it's I've had like again a lot of different a turbulent experience throughout my career so early doors I think there was like a lot of that but I think in the recent years I've had to give myself a lot of my own flowers rather than externally have that yeah because I I asked because I've got friends who work within music and you know I I can only compare to what it's like for comedy where it's like you get your special you release it you put it out there but I know with sometimes albums and music you'll be like no no we gotta wait because this person's been putting out or you know if it's like singles week we're like no no no this person's releasing so we released that week and I can't imagine what that must do at a time where like you're saying like you know you're about to kind of leave your 20s in some ways but is there a lot of reflection when you look back at that time you're like just let's is put this stuff out yeah do you know i mean yeah i think so much of my early career and the anxiety and the overthinking that went into every kind of aspect of like when to release things or like strategically this or that which is important kind of took away from the fun of just like making music and wanting to put it out and like yeah just like wanting to i don't know i think i am in a position in my life now where I'm like creating so freely that like I'm not worried about putting it all out at once because I'll just go and write more but I think in the past everything just felt so overthought that really and truly for like the past five years I've had to unlearn so many behaviors and I'm like I finally hit a rhythm where I'm like I feel so free to just do what I'm doing on my terms which is so refreshing because I think a lot of experiences that we have in these businesses you don't often feel like you have much control and I think it always goes back to realizing that like how long a career is yeah because it feels like when you're quite young and everyone's saying oh you've got to do this and do that and you go to these nice dinners yeah in places where you're like right this is and then you realize you're paying for them the label are like I'm taking you for dinner and then you're like oh you grow up and you're like Oh, I actually paid for that.

31:44Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. When I was 19 and I had everyone wanting to sign me. By the way, also no one knew who I was as an artist. It was just like in the business and it was like hype and all this and all that. And when one person wants to sign you, everyone else wants to sign you. And even if they don't really care about you, but you don't know that. As the artist, you're just like, okay, they're offering me this, they're offering me that, da, da, da. and I think I just I didn't understand that and I just went with the guy that didn't know anything about me or care to know anything about me and that was I know that feeling I remember my first meeting in my old label and I sat in there and I was like talking about the music and a lot of my early music was about my childhood I grew up with my mum I grew up without a dad around and that was what the music was about and that's what the industry they were like that's this young girl that writes songs about heartbreak but it's not a boyfriend it's her dad it's her dad fucking brilliant yeah they're like wow amazing what a unique selling point and I remember going into this meeting and playing the music and talking about it and I'm like I'm very passionate about what I do obviously you kind of you have to be but I love I love making music and I was talking about it and they were just like okay well we just did this thing for Kylie where she did like a flash mob around the like her latest single I don't know what it was and they were like throwing these ideas out and I was like my songs are ballads about like heartbreak and I remember leaving the thing and being like they just don't get me

33:17Mo Gilligan: and I've now signed a deal and I'm stuck here and none of them get me and I cried on the phone to my mum and yeah it was I know that yeah maybe that's like a really like deep like version of it but it's true though if you're at that age and let's say what you're saying like you're 19 that's like you know you're still so young in a space where everyone is so experienced and you're just like oh I feel like I can trust everybody here because we all want the same outcome and the outcome is if I do good you do good if you do good the company does good but on a whole that's good for everybody yeah and I think it's that thing when you're young and you're like oh I'm young and I'm and you are I think the naivety is what people kind of forget of someone who's young and successful of like yeah like everyone's just like really nice to me and like and everyone is and I remember when I was young my stepdad said to me he was like everyone's calling you right now but there might be a time where people don't call you anymore but I just like you know when you're in it and I remember having moments where I was like people talk about bad things happening and I haven't felt it yet and suddenly COVID happened and I was like oh yeah it's happening that thing I said has never happened to me is now happening um but yeah you're young and i think being a young person who wants to make music naturally in the past it's been okay one day i'm going to sign a record deal and i'm going to do this thing and then i'm going to be this artist and do this whatever and actually i think more and more now people are realizing that that maybe isn't yeah the thing like signing to a major record label can be amazing there's a million cases that not a million but a load of cases that have been great there's also a ray i was signed to the same label as her yeah yeah yeah like i had very similar experience kind of been her success story in some ways yeah it was and i remember when she shared that whole experience that she was having and i had left the label a bit before her and i saw it and i just felt so proud of her and so grateful that she did that because there's so many artists like myself who were feeling all the things that she was feeling but were too scared to bite off the hand that fed us yeah yeah yeah like we were like we can't rock the boat because then no one's gonna want to help me or yeah but she did it and it it's been so beautiful watching her career flourish and her just sit in her power like but also i think the uk are very good at churning out female singers yeah like the history of singers whether you know people that are you've got like olivia dean um like ray for example adele yeah the list goes on and on but even like female girl groups, female like Flo doing amazing stuff as well.

35:58Mo Gilligan: Is it Mahalia? Mahalia as well. It's like, we have a really good track record. And I guess, you know, with what like Ray done, for example, it must've been quite empowering for someone like yourself if you're on the same label being like, oh, like, you know, you're kind of more powerful in numbers. Yeah. Because I guess it might be easier to kind of put everybody together when you're like, listen, you know, we're all bredgings like but but that's the thing is in i don't know if it's the same with you in your in your world but in music especially with women i feel like maybe it is with men too but we're all pit against each other from like young as well we've all like mahalia i've known for years but she got some when she was like 12 so she's been in it since she was a 12 year old but we i think because they're you're kind of given although there is all these different artist you're kind of giving the impression that there's only room for one to like really shine so you're kind of constantly pit against each other there's been multiple times where I think lots of us have probably felt like oh like I don't like this person or we're not friends and then you meet and you're like I love you like you're great and then you come together and then you have those conversations but I think a lot of being an artist and in the past maybe less so now because we have platforms where we can talk about how we're feeling and message I'm in like a group chat with some of my favorite artists and it's just like we can talk about what's going on but i think there are times where you also don't want to like admit that you're there's like ego involved too i think sometimes when you're like say it out loud it's like becomes real and i think ray really broke that down it was like she cried on the internet like a lot of people wouldn't feel comfortable doing that yeah i probably have too but i was just like wow you're really like letting people you're teaching people to be vulnerable and that actually you can win afterwards too it doesn't have to be the scary thing that you do it and then there's she probably went through an experience straight after that happened where people were like oh that's embarrassing like she shouldn't have done that but look at her now but it's that vulnerability i think that probably connects with your audience even more because if you're talking about heartbreak relationships family you know inner feelings that you release on a track if you then release that you know where you're like this is what's happening yeah it feels i guess anyway from probably from the audience perspective that it's like all right this is real stuff that's going on do you know what i mean yeah and also we love an underdog in this country oh yeah yeah we love it i love it yeah you wouldn't embrace yeah tell them on stage how it feels yeah yeah man do you also feel like because obviously you're you're a songwriter as well is that a massive benefit within your industry because there are some people that you know again as i get older when i i you start being like oh this person wrote that song or that song is that almost like a really um i what's the word i'm looking for it's like a really beneficial string to your bow in some ways of like i can do this as well and if i wanted to sell some songs i can sell some songs but i can perform my own songs as well i think i think so yeah i think i i also don't i wouldn't be an artist if i didn't write songs the only reason I am an artist is because I like writing about my life yeah it's not necessarily because I even want people to listen to it I'm just like when I'm in a zone of writing songs I'm like let me just speak about my my life right now um but yeah I think so and I actually haven't ever written for anyone else like I've always just written for myself yeah yeah yeah but and I don't know why I haven't and I feel like actually I'd quite like to I said it to my manager recently I was like maybe that could be fun and he's like maybe you think so no i think i think it would i i think it would be nice to also create music because i'm so autobiographical like i cannot write a song about something that's not my life yeah like it has to be almost like word for word what happened and sometimes i'm like why why have i why why did i do this to myself um but it would be quite nice to step into someone else's world and like put their hat on and be able to write a song with another artist or whoever but yeah I think I think if I didn't write songs I wouldn't have the identity that I have tried to build over the years yeah yeah of course yeah and I guess of all you know when you look at songwriting and like what I've started to discover with like songwriting and the whole catalogue situation and the publishing you're like oh we're all like this even I sit there like I might write some songs you know I don't know what I'm talking about alright listen they won't be great songs I can't lie waking up on a Monday good voice though hey I try man hey hey man so like where you are now in your career are you feeling like it's like a almost like a reset moment where you know you're putting out you know music that you like that you want to perform you're writing your own music because your music really strikes me as music that whenever whenever I hear it it reminds me of something I I would hear in a film like and it's very similar I know you've worked with Jacob Banks and I know Jacob we've got a very good close friend in common and it was I was watching the episode one time of power a few years ago and then at the end they play one of Jacob's tracks and I've never seen something align more and obviously I know you don't no one writes music be like yeah I want is to play in this film.

41:29Mo Gilligan: But it just hit. And I was like, fucking hell, that is... When a perfect sync... Yes. When a perfect song goes with a perfect visual, nothing can beat that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. Such a big compliment. No, no, no. Honestly, like when I've heard your music, I'm like, this is the scene where the person says... What camera do I look at? Who's going to put my... No, but you know that scene where it's like, I got to go, I can't do this. And then what? Bow, the music plays? Fucking hell. Yeah, my first, like the start of my career was because I had a song on Grey's Anatomy. And I was independent originally.

42:04And then that's when everyone tried to sign me. And I love, like, that's a massive goal of mine. I'd love to write music for TV and film. Scores. I would love to. I just, yeah, like it just, I don't know. Even like music videos and even this kind of album and the visuals around it. Like I just love putting, I love looking at something and the music just like lifting it even higher. Like I think there's, they, they, they need each other. Yeah. I'm sorry, my ring's clicking.

42:31Mo Gilligan: No, but it's interesting what you say about the visuals. Cause in, I don't remember what track it was. It might have been, is it Heal Me? Or is it, I don't know if it's Heal Me, but there's one track where you've got the little girls. Oh, Why Her Not Me? That's the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the visuals and then you're in it. Yeah. And is it, I'm assuming it's younger versions. Yeah, it's like I'm growing up through the, yeah, that's a deep video. That's another moment of like where I just, I start cooking and then I'm like, but no, I, visuals have always been, especially in my early music.

43:02I think that was the way in which I told my story was through the visuals. Because yeah, my first project, the Why Her Not Me EP was so centered around, well, it was written about my dad. It was literally written like, why did you pick them and not me?

43:15Mo Gilligan: That was the whole story. And so the Why Her Not Me video, yeah, it's just a young, young version of me, a middle version of me and then myself. and it's kind of, I was inspired by Matilda. Oh, okay. The only scene where she's walking down the street and she grows up. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the inspiration for that. That song, the video for that song. So when you're writing stuff at such a young age and like you're saying, you're writing it and it's about like your relationship with your dad and stuff. As in your dad then reached out and being like, oh, like I've heard the tracks and is that, have you found a connection with that?

43:52Mo Gilligan: Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, okay. No, I feel like, yeah, I... Host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department ever. So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want. Only at Whole Foods Market. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. Hi, I'm Rachel Fisher.

44:35Mo Gilligan: And I'm Desi Jennekin. And we host Hollywood Crime Scene. Our show is about the salacious crimes and scandals of the rich and famous. From the early days of Hollywood to the 21st century. We also cover Los Angeles history, true events that inspired movies, interesting biographies, and more. At the end of the week, we drop our mini episode, which recaps the news everyone is talking about, plus the weirdest stories of the week from around the globe. We also talk about food a lot. Subscribe to Hollywood Crime Scene wherever you find podcasts.

45:11ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com

45:21Songwriting for me was something that I discovered at 12 It was the first time Because I have ADHD Which I have just taken my first ADHD medication The last few days So I'm like low-key Feel like I hope I haven't lost all my swag

45:37Mo Gilligan: You feel like your sentence Yeah, I hate it I think I'm great I might need some tablets I'm not chaotic right now Maybe I am but I feel more calm than usual. And I'm like, this doesn't feel right. But I, yeah, I was very emotional, very, there was a lot going on. And so, yeah, I wrote all my songs about that. And then kind of not ever realizing that by the time I was 19, I would have signed a record deal and that was going to be my first project. Yeah. So I kind of then put all this music out, forgetting that this person that I wrote all the songs about was going to hear it. And to be honest, I think I'd kind of a lot.

46:14there was a lot of stuff that went on. I was a secret for 20 years or 19 years. So a whole side of my family didn't know I existed. So that was all happening at the same time. I wrote this project about something I thought I understood. It was a completely different thing to what I understood. So yeah, I mean, he's, he's heard it, but I, I think to protect myself and also just over the past, like, like my adult years, I just decided to choose myself and protect myself and do what I needed to do for me, really.

46:48Mo Gilligan: So what I'm getting is like songwriting and making music is almost a little bit like your release and your therapy as well, where you're able to be, you know, you can articulate how you feel and also visualize, like you're saying with the music videos and stuff. I don't believe that's an idea where Derek's like, all right, great. Yeah, you do that. You dance over there and you're like, bro. Oh, no, there has been a couple. Really? You can tell, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So is that like the way that you're able to express yourself, like purely through your music? For sure. If I feel something like I will write that thing down and I'll write a song about it later.

47:27Like it's just how I have always learned how to process things. And I think that was the hard part of the last, I mean, between kind of like 2019 and 2024 was that I always wrote music from a vulnerable place but I think being in the situations I was in my career suddenly I didn't really feel safe to be vulnerable because I'd written this whole project with the Why Her Not Me EP when I was between 17 and 19 released it on a major label and unfortunately what you don't realize again when you're young is that when you sign a deal it doesn't belong to you anymore and this thing is exploited and And I chose for that to happen, but I didn't think I, I don't think I understood that that would happen.

48:09So suddenly my trauma didn't really belong to me anymore. I was like singing songs about the darkest feelings I'd ever had, but I didn't really have any emotional support or people understanding like the weight of it. And so for years, I didn't know how to really get back to a vulnerable position of being able to talk about how I felt. That's probably why there's only so many songs in the world. And my debut album came out in 2026, but not 2020. it's because yeah it's taken me a long time to get back to a place where I can create from that vulnerable like those feelings again and just say it how it is and get there and that is it's the best feeling like when I sit and I just spit my balls I'm like wow this is magic

48:52Mo Gilligan: but it makes sense though why music would take you so long to make because it's not just like oh we've got this track sing this like it's because I could imagine like with the TikTok stuff and let's make a track for the TikTok and the dance and we're going to put some money behind it. And you're like, I get it, but it doesn't really align with me if I'm going to write this stuff in five, six years, because that's the trajectory I want to go on. And this is going to be something that works. And it might not even also work. Yeah, exactly. I think the biggest thing for me throughout my career, when anyone has ever asked me, like, what do you want from your career?

49:26I'm like, a career. Because right now it feels like everything feels so short term And like a moment or a TikTok hit or this or that. And nothing feels like I'm trying to build towards the fact that I want to, my stepdad is nearly 80 and he still makes an album a year just for himself. I want to be doing that. Like I want to be able to release an album in 10 years, in 20 years time. And even if the whole world isn't listening, I want some people to listen. And I want to just do it for myself. Like that is the most important thing for me. Like I, I of course would love a TikTok moment. I would of course love those things because of course that's the world we live in now.

50:08But I think really and truly my goal is that I want to have a career that, and I've already done that. I've been releasing music for 10 years almost. And I only had 20 songs out in the world until the beginning of this year and this album. In 10 years, it's crazy. I'm like, so I'm, I'm buckling in now. I'm like, I'm ready to show up and do my thing. and on my, yeah, I'm my own boss. I'm an independent artist. I'm doing my own thing. It feels very different. It feels exciting.

50:35Mo Gilligan: So in terms of like your end, when you look at your, you know, you're talking about Saturn returning. Yeah. And, you know, we look at, let's say, from where you are now to like, you know, from birth to 29 years, almost, let's say, 30 years. What do you look at that next return looking like for yourself? Oh, I think when I think about the future from this point, I just feel like I just want to be a lot more self-assured. I think I've lived a lot of my life looking for things externally and seeking validation, whether that be like parental validation or romantic or like friendships or whatever. And I think a lot of like your younger years is trying to find your place in the world and trying to work out how you want to show up and being so worried about what everyone else thinks.

51:24And I think for me, and I already feel it, like even putting out this album I just feel like I'm in a position where I obviously care but I know that I'm showing up for myself in the best way that I would want to show up for myself and therefore I just want to continue on that train and like not let things pressure me too much being a woman in your 30s is a little bit techie though like the pressures of like having kids and getting married and all that stuff I'm like gosh that that's where it gets a little bit like I can I can't agree or disagree

51:55Mo Gilligan: because I'm a man so I can't be like no I'll be alright yeah you'll be fine do you know what I mean but at the same time what I would say is like you will have more fun in your 30s than you thought you ever would have had in your 20s and what I mean by that is the things that you enjoy are the small things of life which is some things you not even planned and you're like this was so fun I remember going to Japan and I was in this bar in Osaka with these random guys I didn't know it was me and my girlfriend and I had the best night I've ever had probably in my life. We were singing karaoke. Obsessed.

52:28Mo Gilligan: Like one of the guys was like, oh, I'm going to make you some food. I was like, I'm all right. And then he made an egg. He just made like omelette fresh and then wrote, welcome to Japan in ketchup. Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed. And he was like, oh, you want to try it? And I was like, not really. But like, it's those moments of fun that if I was in my 20s, it would have just been purely like, I want to go do this. I want to go do that. I ain't going to, no, that's not vibey enough. I can't, I can't make this bang on the gram do you know what I mean whereas like those pictures and those videos I've never shared and every now and then I get to look and I'm like that was a cool moment yeah and you're just more present I think you just become so much more and obviously I'm 30 next year but already like I feel so much I sit in my I'm like in my shoes yeah yeah yeah I'm like the feet are on the ground like I just feel a lot more I'm in my shoes but you know what I mean like I just think yeah like there's been so many times in my life where i've been living a really adult life in the sense of i've had a proper job and like i'm away from home and like my family i don't see them very often and i'm making money and i'm whatever like you know all those different things but really i was a child like and especially again like in these worlds that we're in yeah i was like 19 when i was starting out and you've got all these people doing stuff for you i don't have anyone doing and stuff for me so it's me and my manager now um and so yeah I'm just like I'm probably an adult so I'm just enjoying that and I hope that the next 10 years are beautiful and nothing crazy happens again I see it and I said like we churn out very good musicians in this country but especially female musicians and you know whether you're riding the waves of like a Dua Lipa and you know you're doing concerts and arena tours or whatever it is or someone like a ray who's like you know what i'm gonna do my own thing or you're just someone who's got like iconic tunes like a clio soul yeah and do you know what i mean i can't imagine the amount of people that when they have a baby like yeah i know what like do you know what i mean like there's so i think there's there's so much for everybody but especially for like uk female singers i just feel like the world is almost like your Royster and I see that for yourself and I can't wait to be at the Brits one day and be like hey remember the podcast and now you won hey let's hopefully and I think I think that is also just that idea in music of like getting older and the fact that I am turning 30 and I remember when I was like 19 I was I released my song on my 19th the day before my 19th birthday my first song because everyone was like you have to be 19 when we released your first song.

55:09Mo Gilligan: No, I've done that comedy still. Did you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I remember it being a thing of like, we should do it while you're still 19. So then everyone knows that you're 19. So like when I say something, I like basically was 20, but I was 19. Yeah, yeah. And I think that really like tricked me into thinking that I had to be so young. And if I, I remember being in COVID and being like, I'm going to be 25. And if I haven't done what I think I need to do by 25, I'm finished. Yeah. And now I'm like turning 30 and I feel like I'm 21. I'm like This is like The most exciting time In my career Because it does It feels real The foundations Feel like they're being built On like The foundations are there But in the past It felt like everything Was built on sand It was like You're gonna do this And this and this And it felt shiny But it didn't feel real And I think right now I'm like Yeah I'm turning 30 But guess what I now know who I am And I now know Exactly what I want And I'm not gonna let anyone Push me here or there So it like It feels like Come on I told the thing I told the thing no it feels good yeah oh well thank you so much for joining me on the pod I really appreciate it I know we've only met like once very briefly is there only once I think it's at Wimbledon I think yeah maybe if it would have been someone else it would have been like an event yeah very quick passing and I always feel like you know you've seen someone you didn't see them yeah hey you're out and you're like oh I don't yeah you know it's like hello how you doing you're out yeah yeah I get so tired do you not get tired oh exhausted because I'm like I just want to have a I want to actually get deep like let's sit on the sofa and have a deep chat It's been such a pleasure man Thank you I wish you all the luck With the album I think it's going to be Absolutely huge I can see it getting All that kind of Awards success But also things that You know Live in people's houses And they listen to Whether they're having Their children And they can connect You know And they can find I guess like a mirror image Of you know Your story Where you're from And even if they can't They're like wow This is a great insight And a songwriter And a musician So thank you for coming On the pod Grace Thank you I really appreciate it man This has been your beginning middle and end.

57:06Mo Gilligan: Thank you very much. That's our appreciation, man. Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan. I just want to thank you so much for listening and watching my podcast. Now, a lot goes into making this podcast, as you can imagine. I might be the person that's in front of the screen, but it's really about the people that are behind the cameras. And what I'd really appreciate what you could do for them is one, give this a like. That'll be great. Hype it up. That'll be amazing. But most importantly, if you could subscribe, If you could just hit that little bit just there and subscribe. The reason why that helps is it helps us build a community, what people like, what they want to see more of.

57:42Mo Gilligan: And most importantly, it gets these podcasts straight to you. So you don't even have to look for them anymore. And how cool is that? Now, listen, if you do want to watch any other episodes, you can check out this episode down here and this episode just down here. My name's Jim O 'Gilligan. Take care. Peace.

58:02Mo Gilligan: Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. So are we actually going to tell people what this podcast is? It's Los Angeles. We talk about beauty. And by beauty, we mean proven science, celebrity glam, debunking internet narratives, and whatever drama TikTok has cooked up before 9am. Plus the products you should actually use, not just the products going viral on your feed. We are two beauty journalists who've been in this industry long enough to know what's real, what's marketing, and what's basically a group hallucination. And we're obsessed with the why behind trends. Why everyone suddenly wants to smell like a cupcake.

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