David Larbi

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and this is my podcast, The Beginning, Middle, and End. Now, my guest this week is a writer, creator, and poet whose work centres on mindfulness, emotional connection, and the beauty of everyday moments. Now, we're getting to his journey and what his book, Frequently Happy, means to him. We speak about everything he's loved for music, he's loved for playing football, and most importantly, he's loved for creative writing. Please welcome to the podcast, David Larby. Thanks for coming in, bruv. For you, your journey's interesting from like reading your book.

0:36Mo Gilligan: There's so many similarities and there's times where I'm like, yeah, that was me, you know. That's me right there. I love how you break it down into seasons as well, where I'm sitting there like driving and I'm like, yeah, that's me. I'm a winter person because I'm born in February, but I like layering up. but you know it's those small things when you talk about like when the sun comes out a winter and how it makes you feel because it feels like a surprise and you're like yeah yeah it does yeah yeah yeah I thought that was just a me thing so I really enjoyed it for that in so many ways that like I spoke to my girlfriend and I was like I'm going to get you this book because you need this book because she loves that kind of stuff that's the stuff that she likes diving into but your first love was your first love music?

1:23Mo Gilligan: yeah what kind of research what kind of music was it pretty much i mean anything and everything so grew up i've got three brothers and a sister but we all play the piano and have taken on like another instrument for ourselves kind of thing and music is is the is the thing that i enjoy consuming most so when it came to expressing myself creatively it's the first thing that i tried yeah because obviously i had like some kind of technical skill with it when i was at uni as well i was two years into my uni into a four-year course when i realized i don't really like academia me i'm just good at it yeah yeah and started to think and i obviously i only have all this free time where it's kind of you've got your lectures but most of your time is your own so i got into producing music and stuff like that yeah and the music wasn't amazing but the expression the self-expression was like that was that was that was the valuable part like learning how to make something put it out and let other people hear it even if it wasn't good all that kind of stuff that was that was the baptism of fire kind of thing but yeah music is and i always even now like i make music for myself like i don't think i'll go back to actually sharing or actively trying to actually a bit like what you're saying with this podcast where it's kind of like i just do it free you just do it freely and you do it to express something because it's something you want to do well and then your comedy is like this is my serious business but also i don't think there's a there's a creative in the world who has one sole creative interest no no i i don't believe that i think there's the thing that you do that you love that you then realize you can make a living from and you're like wow i can this is taking me to a place that i didn't know it could take me to and then there's the thing that you might do not so much behind closed doors but the thing where you're like I just really like doing this thing and I like telling people but I'm not gonna I don't need to post about it I barely I barely talk about it openly but I just like this little thing if you know you don't yeah yeah yeah yeah I have such a love for music in a way that it inspires me to sometimes write material or you know before going on stage I have a a playlist of songs which is like before I go on stage and I also sometimes sit and I'm like I want to I want to jump on stage but I want to listen to my headphones just before but I also know I can't because the job I'm doing I have to talk so I don't want to get too consumed in like in like the Beats by Dre looking advert where it's me in the zone because that's just not how I set up to do my thing you've heard the joke you've heard the joke before you know like every black man at some point in their life is going to try and rap Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:47To this day, man.

3:48Mo Gilligan: Yeah. If the opportunity arises, I'm there. I'm out of the house. I'm going to write poetry. I'm off of this. Absolutely, absolutely I will. Listen, if I'm out of one time, I was at a, I think it was a work, like an end of like rap party. And I don't know why, but DJ just started playing some old school grime. And I started spitting bars. and like a circle had formed amongst people that we was making something with and everyone was like, you know, a lot of younger people and like there was a few people in that production that were like, oh, oh wow, Mo's like really good at rapping and I'm like really going in and I'm like, I'm like, man don't know where you'd come for the floor, take my ting and watch it blow, clap, clap, clap, blow and everyone was like, oh, oh my God, this is, you should really rap and I'm like, nah, it's not, it's not that in it, it's just, it's a black thing, can't explain it So like during university, that was the, was that really like your, the moment where you was doing, cause you said like you're very good at academia, but is that also where you found like your love for writing in the sense that it was like, I know what it's like when you're at uni, when it feels so, it can even be two things.

5:02Mo Gilligan: I always think it can be like, you're so channeled into studying and I feel like it's the competition of, you know, we're all studying this thing and we've got a group exercise and we have to do this together or you're just like, I can't wait for this thing to be over. My general approach to everything has always been like, if I'm doing it, I'm going to do it well. Like it doesn't matter what, even if I find myself doing something I don't like, I'm still going to apply myself 100 % to it because if I could do that for the things I don't like, then when it comes to things I do like, it's guaranteed kind of thing.

5:31Like when I'm lucky enough to write a book, I'm going to write a great book because I know if I can put effort into something that, I used to work in accounting, for example. When I was turned up, I can turn up to work in shiny shoe on time every day for, for that. I can sit down on my laptop every time, every day to write something I actually care about. Yeah.

5:47Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I think uni is the first time where that started to become a slight issue because I wanted to dedicate myself a hundred percent to my studies as I always had, like up to the end of six and everything. I've got African parents as well. So school's always been important. Like yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd always, always, I wanted to dedicate myself a hundred, but I, that was the first point where I was like, I don't like this. and that's actually enough of a reason for me to put more effort into something else simply because I don't like it. Like before that, I was like, I don't like, I was like, I dislike.

6:14It doesn't matter. So, and I'd always had, I'd always had, always had the love for writing but uni is the first time where I was like, ah, if I actually don't do something creative, I think I'm going to combust. Like I think my head is actually going to explode. If I don't do something I enjoy doing, I don't know how I'm going to continue being anymore. So like, my love for writing has been there forever. Like when I was at school, I was good at school, I was good in school but the only complaint I'd ever get any kind of parents in me or anything like that is that David is a very conscientious student he's always working really hard but sometimes you look at him you think he's taking really diligent notes but you go to his book and he's writing something completely different in the back of his book and that's what I do I'd be writing I have chemistry I've done a title date whatever I've started the lesson in the front of the book lesson gets boring I turn to the back of the book and start writing my own stuff and the idea was always for the book to meet in the middle my mum still has loads of my old exercise books from school and stuff and you always see like the back of the book towards the middle is always just my own writing and anything that I felt I'd do.

7:08Mo Gilligan: That's so interesting because I remember being in school and the back of the book is where you would do your drawings and you'd write and it was like your secret it was almost like no one's gonna see this. How were your parents with your move into more like creative writing because you know you come from African Ghanaian parents and you know when I've spoken to people on this podcast before and they're like yeah you know telling you know my mum or dad I want to do music or acting it's kind of met with that's not really it's not really real thing is it you know what i mean i've got three brothers and a sister i'm second so i've got enough like three people to set an example for and for me one of the my big thing internally like i've always felt this i've always articulated it this way because i felt this when i was a kid but i couldn't make the argument because i just didn't know how to express what i was feeling but i've always always felt that i'd rather quote unquote fail at a life that i chose than succeed on someone else's terms and feel empty inside afterwards so when i was being pushed into certain things or being pushed to take certain subjects and stuff like even even university itself for example i went to university for me not going to university was never even an option that was on the table my act of rebellion or whatever was that i wanted to i said i wanted to do law because you know law engineering medicine so i want to of those things law looks like has the most writing the mic the most talking so i like i did a law placement in sixth form i said i can't do this so i changed i changed to uh doing english i wanted to do english i uni and i was like don't speak english already that was english but i had had calls from relatives like i'm like you you know you only get to go to university once you pick the right subject but that was me sticking the beginning of me digging my heels and be like no actually from this point onwards these are my choices and the big the thing that i've always felt and that i now feel vindicated in is that it's not that i'm gonna go do this i just do rubbish like i'm not gonna go disgrace anybody i'm gonna work you've given and the thing i always used to say to my parents that you've given me these tools to work hard to value the right things that trust me with trust me with the skills like i might be in areas that you might not be able to anticipate and stuff like that but trust me with i know what to do with myself when i'm in those areas yeah i will make a success with myself no matter what and even if i need to open indeed i'll open indeed you know you know i think it's interesting with parents because i think it's the worry that parents have where their their whole thing is this like look i know how hard it was for me when i was your age and i just want you to set yourself up that you're going to win and earn a living a hundred percent i i i hold i hold no upset or anger because I understand it completely.

9:46Obviously, my parents have come here from somewhere else to give us a better life than they had, which succeeded. And like the exact voice, I know how hard it was for me. I don't want you to suffer the same ways. And then also, just for the general peace of mind, if I was a lawyer right now, my parents could close their eyes and they can picture where I am and what I'm doing. I do social media for a job. What's that? What are you doing on a Wednesday afternoon? On the average Wednesday afternoon, there's no answer. There's no peace of mind. the friends ask me oh what's what's david up to and you can't really say specifically what i'm doing because even sometimes i don't understand specifically what i'm doing and what's going to come the next week or whatever so i can i completely get where that comes from yeah that said though we start to have money from it everything because okay yeah i think you you

10:26Mo Gilligan: do that thing where you kind of treat your parents or something that yeah they then go oh yeah okay this must be good i get it with parents where their whole thing where you know i think sometimes i I look at the position that we're in as a generation where we can choose and say, I don't need to go uni because I can do this thing. And if I've just made a projection of, I don't know, I've done a corporate show and I've made this little bit of money on TikTok and that's already more than I would earn in a month. And then I've got maybe a live talk that I'm going to do. And I've already earned in that month more than I would earn six months if I worked in retail, for example.

11:10For you to kind of turn what you've turned from just having feelings

11:15Mo Gilligan: to then turning that into creative writing to becoming like an author and selling books and being in a space that I can't imagine the amount of messages you must get. I can't imagine what that must feel like. Because I get them in a sense of like, oh, I love your thing and it really made me laugh or going to your show and stuff. Whereas I think listening to your audio book, I felt like I already knew you and we had never met before. But also you were saying things that I was like, that's where I am right now. And it did feel like therapy, if I'm being honest, when I'm listening to it, I was like, right, this feels like therapy right now.

11:56Mo Gilligan: It was also like the relatability of like, I know this guy though, even though I don't know him, I know his journey in the sense of, I've been in those shoes as a young black man trying to find his place in the world where you're like, whew, this is getting a bit much. But this book gives me that, okay, cool. It's not just me. What was younger David like? Because I know you had this love for music. But I asked because when I was younger, I wanted to be a fireman, believe it or not. And my nephew is 10 and he wants to be a bus driver. That's his thing. he's like I want to be a bus driver I want to be a bus driver and I'm waiting for that thing one day when he's like yeah no I actually want to do this what was your thing at such a young age?

12:44footballer first who's your team? Chelsea

12:48Mo Gilligan: oh okay for my sins it's a shame man sorry man sorry to hear that actually we're doing great we're actually doing great and I can identify the team just seems like it's a team full of young guys who are having fun which if I wanted to play for a football team I actually want to play for a just remember But anyways, I've digressed. Football first. And then, like you said, the thing that clicks where it's like, oh, no, I actually want to. Actually, I'll be really honest. What I wanted to do was be in a position where I can help my mum out and just not worry about money. That was my myth. I don't want to be worried about money anymore.

13:19That was really my driving. The driving factor was behind a lot of the choices I made, like even subjects wise at school. What am I doing for GCSE? What am I doing for A-Level? Where am I going for uni? All that kind of stuff. I don't want to be worried about money anymore. and got to even before i got to the point where i was like i'm not that worried about money anymore it was kind of like this isn't this isn't a big enough goal for all the things that i feel and this goal actually doesn't address any of the things i feel as much as don't get me wrong i am not saying the money isn't important because obviously it is like it makes life much more easier it gives you choices all that kind of stuff but i realized that i was leaving so much unaddressed and so much on the side in pursuit of that one thing.

14:03And also as I started to kind of get a taste of, okay, if I could live like that. A taste of, unsustainable taste, but a taste nonetheless. For example, like when student finance comes in and there's a comment in my bank account. Don't get me wrong, that money's all basically someone else's because I have to pay right now to whatever. But when I saw it there, for the first week, you feel like,

14:20Mo Gilligan: I can do anything. I had mine backdated as well, innit? So yeah, bro. When that hit. Dangerous.

14:30Mo Gilligan: They shouldn't give it to you all at once. Absolutely not. I think they shouldn't. That needs to be a weekly thing. Daily even for some. Because to give an 18-year-old a lump sum like that, when most of them have not seen anything like it before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not in your account as well. Not in my account. I've worked since I was like 15, but I've never seen a lump sum like that in my account. And these back in the days were like, £100 was really£100. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Listen, a hundred pound will be an Uber trip, you know? Two Uber trips, that's all right. Is that it?

15:04Mo Gilligan: It's done. Oh, man. But that really taught me as well. They're like, oh, even if I had this amount of money in my account, or I would have this amount of money, I'd still feel and have all of these things. And also, student finance drops three times a year. Oh, my God. Outside of that, where is my happiness coming from? Where's my joy? I need some joy. June and July? It's looking bleak. Brutal. Very brutal. very very brutal and i've i've i very much was the friend as well who like if i didn't have or if i felt like i didn't have money or if i felt like i didn't have means i felt like i didn't have value if i don't have money in my account i can't go to this place i'm saying no to party advice because if i'm if i don't have if i'm not up i can't be outside i need to be and that for me i mean first of all that level of pressure over time just jade you and drained you absolutely and i the worst thing is I would see other people feel the same way and think no like you should be like if a friend was like I can't come out I haven't got buddies I've got I've got you I want you out that I want you because you're you not because you have buddies but I find it so hard to apply those same things to myself and that's when you probably had the whole thing of like you should treat yourself like you treat your best friend especially because you are with yourself all the time every day and always will be and that's why I really started to treat myself like that and in treating myself like that was treating other people like that where i really started to form the core like the friendships now that i have the core friends that i have and the the best relationships that i have came from very much me loving myself more and i don't mean that in the cheese oh just love yourself just love yourself way but just in the genuine i actually really care for myself and know that i have value by virtue of my existence yeah because i'm here and because i exist i have value already so everything i do for myself is because of the value I intrinsically have not to earn more value or not to earn value at all if that makes sense and by virtue of my existence I deserve a happy existence if that means that at the moment I need to look at what's around me now and try and take the happiness out of that rather than look at okay when I have this I'll be happy when I have that I'll be happy if I'm able to do that and able to find the small moments of joy where I am right now I'll be able to have be happy wherever I am whatever I have kind of thing yeah it's so interesting when you have that worry of money and I think I had the same thing where I'd grow up and you want to make sure that the older you get, you're like, well, I want to have money to pay my phone bill or I want to go out with my friends and get chicken and chips and all those things.

17:33Mo Gilligan: But it's so interesting how you can have the worry for money but then neglect self. And it's so interesting hearing you say, like, I had to put myself first where I think when you have the worry about money, it's this thing that lingers. you can't even, you're not even in control of it. No. But you are in control of self. But we probably neglect that, I think, the most. And I think I always find it's easier for us to say things that talk us out of stuff than talk us into stuff. Massively. For you now where you are as someone who is an author, how do you find it when people say that to you as an author?

18:13It is. That is the best thing I've ever been called. is is i still i won't say that i can't believe it because i can believe it took me a year and a half to write the book the book has been out for almost a year i've literally i've been to do book events in the us across the world from where i wrote this book so i there's no point me denying that i know i'm an author and i know i'm a good author too because when i was writing the book the whole thing was i need to make this good this needs to be worthy of people reading etc now there hasn't been a single you know what he said earlier the messages that i get every single day without fail since the book has come out.

18:45The book came out 2nd of January. Every single day, someone will message me on a social media platform to tell me, I really love your book. I'm reading your book right now and it's really helping. This is one of my favourite books. I listen to it every day. Something that just humbles me, humbles me massively. So it's one of the greatest privileges of my life. Even when I was in the process of writing the book. I thought one day, I was like, if I can do this for the rest of my life, I'll be happy. And I've never, like i felt about that i felt that way about things like oh i really love doing this or like i really want to continue doing it but this was if i can do this for the rest of my life in some capacity i'll be really happy and i hadn't i hadn't you know i'm 27 i hadn't i was 26 at the time i hadn't felt that before and i'm aware that a lot of people don't ever get to feel that feeling so i feel incredibly yeah incredibly fortunate to you know someone describes me as an author i'm like i appreciate it so much but equally we're scratching the surface is how i feel as well okay as much when the book before the book came out I'm very bad my loved ones notoriously I'm very bad at acknowledging the good things I'm doing while they're happening and acknowledging my achievements at the moment of achievement like it usually takes me there's like a six month backlog of things I did a TED talk two weeks ago and I haven't I literally haven't really thought about it since because I've just it's next thing next and next thing and I'm really it's a habit that I thought I'd broken but I clearly need to stay on top of myself to keep doing it kind of thing But when the book was coming out, I said to myself for the first six months, when people ask you what's next, the question is, the answer to that question is, it's about what's now.

20:18Like you've written, I've written my first book. I will write more books, but the feeling of I've written my first book isn't gonna come back. So I need to enjoy that in the moment. So the first six months this year, I was just purely enjoying that. I'm an author. I'm like, I'm like, I'm just introducing myself to new people. My name's James, I'm an author.

20:37Mo Gilligan: Did you go and buy your book when it came out? I didn't go buy it myself because the publisher sent me a few. Pegwood sent me a few. But again, me writing a book, it feels so much bigger than me as well because all the people who have known me and know what I'm interested in, know what I love and are invested in me are so proud of me. And again, that is just such a huge, like to pay back people who have put faith in you, I think is a huge thing. You know, when you do something creative, I mean, when you do anything in life, if hard work and talent were the only prerequisites to success, a lot more people would have what they deserve everyone needs to get lucky in some way and kind of the hard work is increasing your odds but everyone needs to get lucky in some way so when you recognize the ways in which you got lucky you really need to be grateful for those things and for me it's the people that i've come across in the radio the people give me opportunities my big thing has always been like if you give me an opportunity i will show you why i was the right person to get that opportunity i'll be so grateful i will show you that i was the right person to get this opportunity so my mom for example is one of those one of the biggest where she's laid the foundations for everything everything i always think mom was the first writer in the family i always think if i am my mom with the opportunities that i've had so everything i do it goes back to this this is her achievements took her to penguin to the penguin offices before the book came out and stuff and the way her face on that day like if i close if i want to close my eyes and be happy i'll just think of her face on that day joe that is it's the best feeling ever she would she she's a teacher and there were days where she would message me she's taken the long way home from college just to go into waterstones to look at the book and then go home like no she's got the book but just to see it in the shop in the shop just to go home that you can't you can't put you can't put words to that feeling it's a it's a very surreal moment knowing that what was in your head is now out in a shop that people can buy it's your thoughts it's your feelings it's your insecurities it's your joys and I'd done a talk at a school yesterday and they said what's your what's your proudest achievement and I said well I was writing a book because I'm dyslexic so I didn't think that was even possible so I was like there'll be a lot of spending mistakes if I ever wrote a book but then knowing when you do the process of writing it in my head I don't know why the child in me was like well when you write a book you get a typewriter you have a few pages and I've seen it in a film where you've got a few pages and someone calls you hey man how's it going yeah I'm still I'm on page 85 right now that's how I thought the process worked until I started you know when I got the approach to do a book I was almost like okay I'm so young to write a book when I wrote the book I was probably I don't know 30 and I was like I've not lived yet and it was like okay so what would your book look like and I was like well what about if I gave you moments of my life and little snapshots and it's just packaged almost like it is a biopic, but it's comedy.

23:33Mo Gilligan: But I think seeing it in the shop though, I went to, I think probably, I don't know, this is like four or five years now after the book come out and I went into Waterstones and I was like, let me just see in it, comedy section biopics, if I'm there. And it was just there on the side. And it was that feeling of like, I think what I didn't realise with, especially with literature, is that no one throws away a book. No, I think this is the big thing. So before the book came out, I had communities on different social platforms that had like lots of people following me and lots of people I was connected with online.

24:11But for someone to say, I've sat down, especially in today's attention economy, I've sat down and read your book. It's a huge deal. Like I say, it's a huge deal. And even things like, like you said, you went into Waterstones, there's one copy of your book there. Someone's picking up that one copy and taking it home and buying it and keeping it.

24:28Mo Gilligan: But even considering it though, even if they don't buy it, when I sit there and I'm like, because you know the process of when you say like, what picture, what font? We like this one. Here's an idea. And you just looked at it and it's like, okay, let's read the back. And the fact that you even done that, maybe you didn't buy it, but the fact that you even picked it up, because there are thousands of books here, but this was the one. And I'm like, brother, there's some real big books in this place. The Bible's downstairs, bro. the bible's downstairs you know bro but you picked up this i appreciate it man if you want to buy it i'd love it but just the fact that you picked it up is is huge man so like you see like for for what you've been able to do in terms of being an author how how um important is social media for you really important in that social media is my proof of concept it's because the thing is i've always known that i'm capable of i did english and french udi as i said i've written all my life as much as there are things about myself i doubt there are places where i doubt myself but in terms of can you write yes that that's never that's not the question that's actually what i'm best at social media is my proof of concept that i can most of my content is poetry and i love the fact that it's poetry because it's very organic like it's authenticity it's what i have to say like what i had to express one of the best things for me about social media is that whatever you do and whoever you are, there's the audience for it or there's a community for it.

25:52Someone will enjoy what you do. And the more authentically you do it, the faster you find the community, the deeper your connections are with that community. As much as there's the temptation to follow trends or to do it and to grow, it makes sense to try and chase those things. But ultimately, a thousand engaged people who are truly rocking with what you're doing is better than a hundred thousand who kind of don't really care for the odd video kind of thing. So for me, social media is my proof of concept that i can be 100 myself offer what i have to offer creatively and there will be people interested in it in terms of well that's done for me in a practical sense things like getting having publishers interested in the first place and all that kind of stuff that came from me having social media platforms so i'll never ever be upset about it in terms of how i use it myself as well how i use it has changed a lot based on the fact that i have a big community on there i don't think social media is inherently bad it's just that it's so easy to overuse like super easy to overuse when even if you were to delete the instagram app from your phone today for example you'll find your thumb just going to find it just out of muscle memory and there are literally there are rooms full of people who are very very smart dedicated to keeping you on their app and there are about seven apps like that it's hard it's hard to maintain a healthy relationship with it but i personally it's a it's a fantastic it's like an amazing tool but also an amazing place to be connected with my community i think one of the one of the things that you said that i'm really appreciative of and that means a lot to me is that you said when you listen to the book or hit there or read the book it felt like i was talking to you i think social media is one of the best ways to do that like it's kind of like you feel connected with with a person and for me the whole goal of creativity and making anything is for people to be connected for people to be connect with you as a very funny person as a comedian so your best jokes are the ones that people could identify with the most relatable situations and stuff like that and it's exactly the same i think social media one of the best things about it is that we see ourselves and see things that we didn't realize that we oh i'm not the only one who feels this i'm not the only one who does this like it's it yeah it puts us all together in that way so i mean i personally have a very good very healthy now relationship with it and it's going to be a big part of everything i I always do just because it helps me to reach people.

28:04I reach people is what I'm always trying to do with everything that I make.

28:06Mo Gilligan: And with your reach, you know, with a book, you are hitting all corners of the world. Like a book is always traveling. You know, sometimes when I'm flying, I always have a book with me. Sometimes I have the intention of like, I'm going to read this book. And I've got this one book. It's probably been everywhere with me. And I've probably, it's not even a big book, but I've probably read half of it. And I always sit and I'm like, I need to read the other half. but it goes everywhere and then there's other books I've had that I love and I've read it and then I've left it on a plane but then I sit there and I'm like I feel like that's kind of what it's meant to do where you're just like this will end up in another part of the world somewhere else on a bookshelf and someone's gonna go oh I picked this up I don't know what this is but I'll check this out I feel like the way that literature and books can travel without you have having to where your book can go is so different, I think, to...

29:04Mo Gilligan: It's a bit similar with music. There's times where the first time I started going to America and I was in New York in a Nike shop and I could hear a friend of mine's track in the shop and I was like, hey, you're playing this song in New York? And that felt like... I was like, I wish he was here to hear this. Now you've got smartphones, I had to record it and send it to him but it was that thing of like just the same way like books can travel like music can travel or you know social media or posts can travel um what pressures does that come with though for you where you get so much um engagement from the book that you've given out to the to the to the people in your community and the messages you must get you know how much pressure is that to kind of deal with for yourself.

29:57I said I'm really blessed because my problems are the champagne problems in that I do get negative messages, negative comments, but the things I post are generally about, I post poetry about things that make me happy.

30:09Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So there's no specific issue really to take with the things I'm making. So if someone, if there's a hate comment, it's just like, someone's called me the N-word. Like it's just, there's nothing creative about this. Nothing even directs. Like you've just seen that black. That's a true hate. Yeah, that doesn't even get me. It doesn't really take any getting over. And in fact, I don't even bother blocking people like that anymore because like, you need what I do more than anyone else. You need some love and compassion. Otherwise you wouldn't be at home like this. That's a good way to look at it.

30:41I have a constant flow of positivity towards me, which is wonderful. And the only, I'd say the only thing that I ever struggle with is sometimes, like I said, it's very, it's very humbling. like it's super humbling someone will message me i had a message from somebody last week who they i doubt they wouldn't they wouldn't mind me saying this out loud but they said i've had miscarriage and i'm going back this is my first week back to work and i'll be reading your book every day before i go to bed it's the only thing that's given me the strength to continue for me i did i would generally who who am i to be in a position of who i to be so honored and being in a position of such privilege that my words mean this much to you?

31:21And how do I continue to live up to that? And I think if I ever get inside my own head, it's because of that. How do I continue to be worthy of this? This is so incredible. Something I could never have dreamed of to be a part of people's lives in this way. How can I continue to be worthy of that? And that takes a lot of external reassurance. My fiance, my mom, always say to me as well, like, this isn't the time to overthink and to do anything. You're here because of what you've been doing. So just keep doing what you're doing. Like, you don't actually, you don't have to now qualify. like you've done the things you've done.

31:48And even my mum says this about replying to messages. When I first started to build a following online, every comment, every message, I'm replying. Even though I genuinely set aside Sundays and I'll sit and reply to everything I've got during the week. Everything, because it means so much. Like you never imagined being that, and you're just so grateful for all of it. And then as you stop replying, will people think I'm less grateful? Will people, like even now, like sometimes I want to reply to one comment in my comment section, but everyone else is going to think, why didn't you reply to my, no one's thinking about that basically.

32:16It's just, it's me. Two things. One, I'm not as important as I think I am. As much as what I'm doing, what I'm making is important to people. I'm not the only, I'd be very surprised to find I'm the only person that anyone follows. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's got an ecosystem of people they follow, things they listen to, things that help them through their lives and then everything going on offline in their own lives anyway. Like they've commented that and put their phone down. They're not sitting there waiting for me to reply to them. I'm not expecting it either. Most of the time when I do reply to people, they're like, oh my gosh, I never thought you'd reply to this.

32:44But again, and then we'll reiterate the first thing they said because that is an act of kindness on their part to reach out. And the way my mum puts it, is that you putting the work out there is you opening the loop and then messaging you is them closing the loop. Like you've put something out there, they've replied to you. There's nothing you actually need to add to that. That's a perfect interaction. So that really helps it in terms of, yeah, just me not getting in my head about that kind of stuff. And then in terms of being worthy of all of this, like it's in the work. as i continue to write and make things that i know will make people happy and share my joy with

33:17Mo Gilligan: people that is where i'm earning it if that makes sense yeah it's a really nice way to like the way you summarize of you opening the loop and then then replying is closing it because when you first start getting people replying back to your thing that is something where you're like well i've done this thing and you put it out there and people are yeah this is amazing i loved it and you're like it's like i've been exact same place where you're like i'm gonna reply back to everyone and then the minute you don't you then sit and you go oh I'm gonna get back to that one but there's this other one and then there's that one um and it's I think it's that thing in you where you're like okay cool I've I can only do so many replying backs but also that joy that people give me back is the thing that makes me write the next one yeah do you know what I mean and I think it's for me anyway I've always looked at a thing where I'm like I've done that thing but can I do it again can I do it bigger I don't know man but then knowing you're like people came you know people enjoyed I've seen them laugh in the moment like because of what you do as an author and your writing how important is like self gratification for yourself because the reason why I ask is I'm very fortunate enough to be in an environment where I write material, I practice it, I craft it, I've got this bit, I've got this idea, and then I can then perform it on that night, on the weekend or work towards something.

34:54Mo Gilligan: When my book came out, I remember it coming out and I was like, oh, it's out now. And it was just like, so, what do people like about it? I don't, you know, it's a process that, like you're saying, It took you a year and a half to write. And I'm so used to being in a position where I do the TV show in less than 24 hours. You know what they've said in the press, what people like, what do we change? What could we make better? What's that process like for you as an author? I'd say this year, more than any year before, is where I've put myself out there

35:38for well I've risked rejection in a way if that makes sense because obviously you've written the book and you have to sell the book so I've been going I don't think I've actually said no to anything not in that I've obviously applied discernment but it's been every one truth has come my way something I'm happy to do and I've gone to festivals all around the country and talked about a book to audiences who know nothing about me which I actually actually really enjoy those ones more than not not more in a different way i enjoy them in a different way the one the events book events for example where people know it's me and they'll come to see me specifically i love doing those because obviously it's just love every time and then events where no one knows who i am or if i'm kind of on the program and there's loads of other people people might as well stick around for this next talk whoever it is and then go away thinking oh no i might get his book that means a lot because it's like okay clearly what i'm doing has merit to it that that's it it's a nice one to but in terms of just putting myself out there generally and asking people constantly how do you how do you find the book where do you want me to go it feels like i'm always bombarding people with stuff feels like every instagram story i post has a link in it for you to click and do something else it feels like i'm doing too much a lot of the time but there's um it's actually grace beverly who said this who i don't consume anything that she makes but she's got i listen to a lot of the stuff she says because she's just got a very good mind for she's great at business stuff at the business side of stuff as you said people will never be as tired of what you're sending as you are of sending it and that flicked the switch in my brain was kind of like okay because it's what i think about all the time i always think i'm talking about this too much but to this i could post a video today about my book and i guarantee someone will comment i just know you had a book and i feel like i've been talking about all year

37:17i've been shouting and screaming and on every day every day it's been in my profile the first My bio is author. I'm frequently happy. I didn't know you had a book, but it's, it's, it's, whenever I get those comments, it makes me chuckle. And it's like, okay, you have the license to talk about, talk about this as much as you want to talk about this. And also people are, the whole, like you need, sometimes I really need to remember how much, when you haven't heard something direct, no one's actually directly told me, I'm tired of you talking about your book. I don't think anyone ever really would, especially in Britain.

37:51Like we're not like that. We're not like that. but I'm thinking people are tired of hearing this and I'm projecting that onto other people

37:57Mo Gilligan: before I've even put myself out there yeah and when we do anything when we do anything that puts us out there in any way it's so important that we don't project our own fears onto people's reactions before we've even got people's reactions you actually need to put yourself out there to get rejected first yeah let's not let's not preempt the rejection let's not borrow grief from something that hasn't even happened so in terms of yeah self gratification making sure that it's that it's pushing myself to keep doing those things because that's kind of where I've needed to grow this year which is which has happened which is great because you speak about rejection in the book and whenever i have to do a talk i i lean into rejection where it's like i think once knowing that especially within the world that i'm in knowing what the rejection is and knowing that and being in the process of having to reject people creatively for stuff where you're like oh, that person is great, but they might not look the part for what we need them to do the thing for.

38:52Mo Gilligan: Whereas it's like, some people are sometimes too good, which you sit there and you're like, wow, I've probably been in that position. And that's not to say that their talent isn't too good. It's almost like for the role that we might cast for, you excel. We see you in a different space. and I think knowing that behind just just behind the screen is so like it's the one thing that's definitely blown my mind more than anything and meeting like you know let's say casting directors or people that make television programs and they're like yeah you know we couldn't do that thing because we wanted to do it but it's too big we don't have the budget that's the reason why we didn't do it you know oh right I just didn't think you lot thought it was good or funny no we actually loved it but we just can't afford it and you sit there and you it makes you go oh okay it's not me yeah because i think as a creative you sit there and you're like well i've worked on the thing and i went to the meeting and everything and well i'm not good enough like how are you gonna laugh and shake my hand and say hey man you're the future you're like brother what why did you do that what about the prison yeah why did you do that to me man but then i think knowing it is like one thing i've definitely learned is that rejection isn't personal in in from the creative standpoint, what is that like for you?

40:10Mo Gilligan: Because you do mention it in the book. And I guess it can be easy to kind of like sit here and talk and be like, oh, you know, you're at uni, you're on social media and creative writing and you're an author. And I think the notion of monopoly of like skip, pass, go, you know, you get the card and you're like, skip, pass, go, collect 200. And, you know, that is the mantra of like, well, it must have been quite easy because you just got to go around. You're like, I still had to pick up the piece though you know like and go physically around even what even even more than that like it's like skip past go you said you skip past go you pick up the piece you didn't even mention rolling the dice yeah that's it every every every journey especially because i mean we this conversation is going to be however long it's going to be you can only fit so much into and when you're listening to someone's success story or watching a video with her it is just so you can't fit the fullness of life into the cliff notes edition of how someone got to where they are so you will automatically cut out a lot of the thinner and the graph will look like this and you forget that it's you get there eventually but there's peaks and troughs and there's dips and you're up and you're down kind of thing and there's I think one of the big lessons that this year has taught me specifically is that even when you get to a point of success where you think ah from here is smooth it's not the more you try and do the more potential there is for rejection and the more potential there is for a no or for it's just the difference now is that you kind of you develop you develop the thicker skin and like you said i i very much have stopped taking rejection and failure well rejection isn't personal and failure is data not identity those are the two things that i stick to all the time rejection if i'm being rejected it's just that someone either is it's something's in the right in the wrong place or is there at the wrong time or both at once or someone can't see what i'm seeing like i pitched an idea and in my head the idea is in my head so i can see i can see it in fullness i can see the success i can see all of it but for whatever reason the way i've communicated it hasn't landed the same way with the person i'm talking to which just means that he's presented at a different time or i need to think about it more or i need to find a different way to present it and then when i actually try things and fail and they don't work out it's just failure stops the second you something works out all this failure stops it stop mattering in fact actually the more failures you've had before you succeed the greater the victory seems yeah yeah the truly Titanic stories it's always been rude for is that this person was rejected by 101 studios and 102nd did it and it was the highest greatest movie of all time those stories were like wow rather than the ones oh walked in the room they said yes and they made a film and I think whenever sometimes you haven't because even for myself where I write material and it's you know and this is a conversation where a lot of comics have where you'd be like you know you say to a comic you'd be like oh how's things going yeah man everything's I'm just jumping on the stage everything's working everything's working but every comic knows you're like i'm gonna have a night somewhere here that this is not gonna go to plan and it's knowing that as much as i'm sailing the rough sea you might also hit a rock and you can't see the rock because you're just sailing on the sea so you're like i don't know you know when that rocks come when that rock hits boy you will sit there and be like oh right maybe maybe i should have written more new stuff when it was going well, if that makes sense.

43:29Mo Gilligan: Now as an author where you are, you get featured in things like GQ and Daz and Radio One, Forbes. How is it now where you're in a position where you are opening up more than just what you're able to do? Because you like music and you like football and you have your hobbies essentially, but then you have like your job, but then you also get opened up into spaces that are, you know, GQ is predominantly mainly like fashion and stuff. And then, you know, you're getting featured in spaces where you're like, oh, like, you know, you turn this page and you've got an advert for Rolex and I'm in this space now.

44:18Mo Gilligan: Or, you know, I'm on Radio 1 and I like music And I know that some of my favorite musicians have been in this room or might even be in the green room now. Or, you know, people that I admire that are in business are now could potentially read about me in Forbes. How has this kind of opened up your world to just not be, you know, an author, essentially like into looking at different avenues and paths? this is true i've always thought that especially when you do when you do something creative full-time i think what's because i've done loads of different jobs in pretty much anything you know customer service cleaning accounting like loads and loads of different stuff and i think i think of what each job has demanded of me i think the emotional labor with creativity is what is what's really high which is where i think that can be really easily overlooked from the outside it just looks like everything's easy and like you forget how difficult it can be to just literally is me presenting vulnerability all the time my actual personality is is in front of people every day it's not just i pick up the camera i'm someone else i'm playing the character like it's me all the time so the line between what i'm willing to share what i keep for myself that's one i'm always like constantly adjusting and constantly mindful of on top of that i think it's really helped me to it's really helped me to develop a strong sense of identity the what i was saying before about kind of opportunities coming to you because of who you are and what you do and then you get so you get uh gq said oh we'd love to do a feature or whatever and it's oh okay and then suddenly actually perfect example is what you were saying about the intros someone introduces you as all this list of things that you've done even when you read that paragraph so i need oh do i need to sit a bit straight in my chair do i need to look like someone who's done all these things but then what's that what does that even look like because i am the person who did all those things so really what am i and that is the hardest questions i think for any person to answer at any time like who am i what am i and it's really nice because i do generally i do genuinely feel like all those opportunities come from literally being who i am and doing what i do so i try my best to just be if my whole thing in my mind is i will walk into any room as i am and if you talk to a person from from this room and that room and that room their accounts of me will all be the same as i'll be the same wherever i go and whoever i am again this is where I'm really blessed to have such a circle who have known me from before any of this stuff kind of started happening for me and if I was ever to act differently or to I would know about it very quickly very quickly hey my brother like what's going on bro obviously like you know with the children man it's a bit different there was one I did a feature before the book came out for a great magazine called Boys by Girls and it was a real editorial shoot and they put me in like four or five high fashion outfits as in high fashionism you wouldn't walk down the high street you have to be in the editorial otherwise there was this there's one pair of shoes Alexander McQueen shoes that had me in the point of this shoe was crazy the Cogli's point yeah Cogli's Uncle 3000 the man who said it into the group chat he said you can kill a cockroach in the corner it's crazy and it's things like that where it's like okay I'm in spaces doing things that I wouldn't ordinarily do but even then like it's like as much as I'm joking about that it would have been very easy for me to maybe be uneasy in that setting because I'm not used to it and stuff like that but the way I approached it was okay this is what I'm used to doing so let me let me have fun with it let me let me enjoy it and when the jokes are rolling in from people let me run with the jokes because it is it is fun I had fun doing it and I got there ultimately doing something I'm proud of doing so I'll do all the same things again so there's nothing to regret there when you go to start you know you get to you know write a book and you're in like a GQ and you know you start going to these events what does that feel like as someone who you know writes because is there that kind of um what's the word I'm looking for is there that kind of um you know like when you go into an environment where you're like oh I don't know if I'm meant to be here because I feel like with people that write it's almost like and you know some of the some of the most famous writers it's only unless you go out of your way to you know i'm gonna google who what does this person look like i don't know i don't know who this person looks like but what does that pressure also feel like to be at front facing things as someone whose creativity is is is in a book where it's normally, you know, growing up, I don't think I ever knew what Roald Dahl looked like.

49:02Do you know what I mean?

49:02Mo Gilligan: As a kid, but I grew up loving the books. And if I tried to make a recollection now in my head, I think there's a little picture of one of the books. But even then I'm like, I don't really know. I know he's passed, but I could walk past him in the street and not really know. So is there a part of you that feels like, you know you want to go to the things and you know be invited and be like i want to i want to drink the champagne too man you know i mean i'm meant to be here i'm in the gq magazine too do you know i mean um skept is here so i'm meant to be here um but is there also the thing where it's almost like oh i kind of also do like a bit of my privacy and being a little bit anonymous in that sense you know when i was growing up i always got described as an extrovert and i was going to describe as extroverted my three brothers are all quieter by nature than i am and when it comes to someone like speaking up or stepping forward for something it would usually be me so i always thought myself as an extrovert then when i became an outland actually had a choice i realized that ambivert is probably a better word to describe how i am i'm very good at the social stuff and the front-facing stuff that's why i get put in front of microphones because I can because I'm very comfortable doing it but the writing is what I actually really love it can be really difficult sometimes because I feel like I am in the book yeah if you want to know about me read the book that's what I did this for so I wouldn't have to do this stuff but again like I said that's a big champagne problem like oh I have to go talk to people who are really nice and want to hear about what I have to say or what terrible my steak is too juicy my lobster is too buttery it's ridiculous but sometimes when i do go to certain events and when i'm in places i'm around people who i've looked up to from when i was younger it feels amazing and then that's where not imposter syndrome quite but it's almost like should i be here and also is it genuinely is this is this valuable to me as as much as valuable for visibility and stuff is that the kind of value because value is subjective is this valuable to me this might be valuable to sell a book or it might be valuable but is this valuable to me if i am sitting in a place where i feel uncomfortable for three hours and then i go home like thank goodness that's over was that good for me or could i spend that three hours with myself doing some exercise journaling whatever and would i have come up with a great idea and be working on something that i actually think provides value to other people again actually i think that does tie into imposter syndrome more than i realize as i'm speaking i kind of realize that a lot of the time i get really close to talking myself out of doing things or going to places because i put it down to oh no you should focus on the craft you should be if you should be focused on as an author you want to be author for the rest of your life should be focused on the craft more than anything but my mum says to me all the time you are a very young man and you should be enjoying your life at the same time and if you never eat the fruits of your labor you're just laboring and labor you're always hungry it does make no sense so sometimes your fruits will rot and like it's great to have a great that i've done it before i've put fruits in a bowl on the table in the kitchen i'm like right every fruit is there i've got some flowers there i'm like yeah this looks banging but then give it a week and i'm like right why have you got fruit flowers in it and i'm like oh it's because i've got a mango i've got i've got dragon fruit what the fuck have we got dragon fruit for um this is one of the many reasons that i wrote the book in seasons didn't mean to run that but i not because it's written across the seasons winter spring summer autumn in terms of the structure of the book but i also wanted to follow just seasons of life and one of the important what we're talking about here is literally you know work and then harvest like you work and you work and then you at some point you reap the harvest you have to enjoy the fruits of your labor and that that last part i think is the part that i'm not the best at because i find so much value in hard work and discipline putting myself and earning things like i'm always i need to if you want more you do more i need to work i need to work i need to work and historically haven't been good at making enough time to enjoy the things that i've worked for which is why i'm so glad that i really broke that pattern with the book for me is the biggest thing i've done creatively to date i'm really glad i broke that pattern with something that I value so highly in that the first six months of this year all I thought about was enjoying the fact that the book was out and being really proud of myself and happy myself and saying yes to everything and going everywhere the book took me because it just made me really happy to celebrate in the fact that I've written a book that I'm really proud of that's great and that objectively people love it's now that I'm getting back into a season of work those good lessons I can feel them slipping away and me falling back reverting to type again and it's something so I'm actually thank you for asking that question because it's something I need to I'm realising that I need to stay on top of myself with whereas I need to still and again it doesn't have to be all or nothing it's not like now I need to go up into the mountains lock myself away so I can write.

54:00Mo Gilligan: I think people think that with with writing it's like you know I need to go to this place to find the thing and I've tried it before and it didn't work bruv I said yeah I'm gonna go New York I'm gonna write this new talk bruv I was doing vibes boy I'm at at Madison Square Garden watching fucking basketball. I'm like, what am I doing here? But then also that's where the creativity comes from. That is, it comes from you lived experience. Gotta be careful of the vibes, you know, bro. The vibes will vibulate, bro. Hey, bro, listen. Sometimes you can get so caught up in the vibes, bro. You sit there and you're like, bro, this is, you look around.

54:43Mo Gilligan: It's like, you know what I describe it as, yeah? Is where you ever been in a club, yeah? You're having the time of your life, yeah? And they put the lights up a bit brighter and already you go, is this what it looked like in full light? Because we was in the dark and it was the best time, but now it's light. I've got to wipe the sweat off. All right, let me cut that. Yeah, you could, yeah? Yeah, no, I'm going to cut still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then someone can say, hey brother, there's a little afterthought, you're going to go? And you're like, look at me, man. But you're like, I do want to go, man.

55:20Mo Gilligan: I do want to go. You talk about where the book has taken you. Where are some of those places that it's taken you where you are having those moments where you're like, oh my God, look where I am. Because I know the book is global. You also have partners in the US that you work with, like publishers. How have you found it when you've gone to that side of the pond? So the first time I've done that for the book was literally this month, just literally a couple of weeks ago, I came out from San Francisco just under two weeks ago. And that was just beyond. I think every time I think I'm used to something, something will happen that makes me go, this is unbelievable.

56:08I went to the book event I had in San Francisco specifically the youngest person there was six an older person was 72 and when people ask me about my book one of the questions that I get commonly is what's the target audience what's the age range of people who can read this the target audience is people who deserve to be happy so that's anyone if you can read it and

56:28Mo Gilligan: understand it and see yourself in it it's for you and I've always wanted that to be the case but as you know when you create something you can have your intentions for it and then it goes where it goes and you don't have control over that so the fact that it's landed in exactly the way better than i could have hoped to the point where i can go to america across the world and people will come out of their homes for me to come and see me and talk listen to me talk about this book and talk to me about why it means so much to them the six-year-old who came she was i said so you're you're very young to be here like thank you so much for coming actually i really want to i want to be a writer so much as i want to be right so much said reading is the thing that helped me most my daddy died and you hear something like that and again that's where you feel so humbled and so moved and when i say the places the book has taken me it's not just physically it's emotionally as well to have that level of impact in people's lives is the the greatest of privileges so yeah i think i think i just the more of this that can happen the more of this i get to do the better and yeah the better i will be for it the more the more work i'll put into yeah be worthy of all these these incredible things that are happening yeah you see when you start looking at your end what do you kind of start envisioning because i'm i'm sure there's you know authors that you look up to but also spaces that you want to start occupying and whether you're giving yourself that five-year plan or 10-year plan being the age you're at now like 27 in your 20s where it's the best time where i always you know whenever i do shows and i don't get much people that are like really in their early 20s that come to my shows and i sit there and i just say to them i always make sure i say listen enjoy your 20s this is your best time and you're you're in a you're in a part of your life which right now just listening to you it sounds like this is your best time yeah when you're speaking about moments of the book i I see your face light up.

58:27Mo Gilligan: So how do you start to like, you know, get prepared to write the next book or go into spaces where you say, well, I am an author, but I do like music and I actually want to create a show that I want to tour and do poetry. One of the biggest things for me, I mentioned earlier that, especially when I was younger, my biggest thing was, I don't want to struggle for money. I don't want to struggle for money. And the scarcity mindset kind of created by sex plants I grew up in and all that kind of stuff really limited my scope for what was possible for me. So a lot of the last couple of years has been just really eye-opening.

59:07I feel like I'm gazing at everything wide and I'm like, wow,

59:10Mo Gilligan: it's amazing. And now that is fading in a very good way in that the positives of that was that obviously super grateful for everything that happens to me all the time. I think you'll never come across me and think that I'm not grateful for the things I have. I always will be. Equally, like you said, once you kind of get used to being in certain spaces is where you access ambitions that maybe have been at the back but they just didn't feel like they were there were it was the time for them to be present or was you you were i was ready necessary to contemplate certain things and one of the best things that's come up this year is that i'm able to or i've been able to express certain desires or ideas out loud where it's like this a couple years ago would have been a wild dream and now is a distinct possibility in fact really logistically i can find a way to make this happen there are very few things i want to do that literally i couldn't find a way to make happen so now the question is actually genuinely again deep self-reflection of what do what do i want to do what do i want to do next i have a few i have a few answers there are a few spaces that i want that i want to be in that i'm not in yet there are a lot of things i want to do specifically actually i'm not gonna the couple of things i won't say out loud but yeah there are a few things that I really very much would love to do and that are now within the realm of possibility which is a really exciting place to be in and I'm aware that a lot of people don't manage to yeah get to those those places especially like by the age at the age that I'm at and I'm trying to at the moment balance like you said enjoying my 20s enjoying the fact that I'm young and I'm as much as I'm engaged no like plans to have any dependency time so I know that that will change kind of the way you approach things the way you look at life so I'm it's it's one of those things like what's the the right thing but i'm trying hard not to think too much about what's the right thing or what what's the thing that feels right if that makes sense that's that sounded so like don't don't love your job job you'll laugh but but seriously as like what what not what do i think would look good from the outside what actually feels right for me to do that's more what i'm trying to say so there are a few big things that already will be happening next year that are a great on a greater scale to anything that i've done before and this is the first time when i am also thinking about okay in five years time what do i want this to look like 10 years time is the furthest i can push but even then i'm kind of trying to keep it shorter so that i can enjoy my day-to-day whilst still building towards you know the things i ultimately want for myself in the future i i think honestly david is it's one having you on the podcast i was really just excited just to speak to you you know i mean as much as it was just a book it was just like ah i was really just like i was like oh right yeah man like i was really wanting to speak to him man but your your your book is definitely something that is it's definitely life-changing in a sense of there's so many people out there that are looking at the rat race of life comparing their race to someone else's race but knowing that you're like listen man there's enough cheese for everyone you know do you know what i mean like it's all right like and i think your book really emphasize emphasizes that a lot it's the the worries that we all overthink and build up and we've like oh i've got to do this and i'm doing that but am i am i calling my mom am i being a good son am i am i am i am i am i am i overthinking am i over worrying but just knowing that like your book helps so many people but even for myself just listening to it and i'm sitting there and i'm just like oh oh i need to need to this is a beautiful book do you know i mean it's not a book telling you okay well you want to do you want to do this you want to work you you want to go better at nine o 'clock wake up at five bro you want to get to the gym you want it that was really that was really really the reason my book is called frequently happy and not happy all the time is because it's not an instruction manual like i'm not directly telling people what to do i am the the as you know the structure of the book is every chapter has a poem a reflection from me and a journal prompt for the reader because as much as i've written the journal prompt yeah doing the audio was a lot was a lot of fun and if there was doubt about how well that would translate to audio but i just i just thought because literally journaling journaling isn't for everybody but thinking about how you feel is for everybody like we're all doing it whether we're doing it consciously or subconsciously so taking a moment to actively think about how do i actually feel about this and how do i feel about this as it pertains to me because all i'm doing is sharing my personal stories or my personal reflections on things but the whole point was so that there's space for every reader like by the time someone finishes a copy of the physical book or finishes listening to the audio book the book is yours like as much as it's mine and i've written it it's yours and everybody's book looks different to everybody's because everyone's life is different to everybody's and everyone's joys and happinesses and highs and lows are different to everybody else's and the whole point is whatever your story is whatever your life is that has immense value yeah David man it's a pleasure to have you on the pod today thank you so much for having me honestly man trust me when I mean bruv your book had me smiling bruv I was driving letting people go but no no no you got you man you got you came out the car because there's a bit where you say you smiled at someone and bruv I left the car and I was like

1:04:35Mo Gilligan: but no man is i'm so excited to to see where this book is is gonna take you i'm really intrigued to see where it takes you um if anyone's listening i definitely encourage you to to grab the book it's available in all good bookstores audio books um physical books hard copies it's called frequently happy i don't think i've i don't think i actually said that out loud any point yeah frequently happy yeah yeah you can find it in all good bookshops and I encourage you to buy this book yeah man I can't wait to you know read the next book but also yeah enjoy enjoy what you're doing now man because I can see that but also it's also it's also important that you do enjoy the fruits of your labour and listen if the lights come on at the vibes just be like listen man I'm hearing it and this my friend has been your beginning middle and end thank you very much thank you hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace