DJ MAK10

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and right now you're tuned into my podcast, The Beginning, Middle, and End. Now, I have an absolute treat of a guest that's going to be joining me today. That's right. He's the heartbeat of Nasty Crew. He is a pioneer of the grime scene. We speak about taking it rogue to doing grime sets in the middle of Oxford Street. He tells me about growing up with five brothers and how we brought Wiley and Dizzy Rascal back together again. Please welcome to the podcast DJ Mack 10. Yeah bro, thanks for coming on the pod bro. You're welcome. This is the first time we probably have met.

0:41A hundred percent. I've met you before but you wouldn't remember. Where did you meet me? I was a fan still and I was like yo Moe let me get a picture.

0:47Mo Gilligan: I gave you one though innit? You did. See that's how you know I'm not one of these. You know there was a lot of people like yeah yeah yeah welcome. That was time ago. Where was that? It was at Lovebox Festival. It was a long time ago. Oh, okay. That would have been time ago. I just started doing the videos there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, time, time. You know what was mad about going, that actual day, Lovebox, that was like my first time going to like a festival. Yeah. And I'd just done the videos. So I remember on the way there, I went with some friends and people kept stopping me like, you do the videos, like a couple of cans and stuff.

1:20Mo Gilligan: And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. And then my friends, to my weird it's such a weird day because my friends just left me so i'm there doing pictures and videos with people and i bumped into another friend of mine javan and then you know when you go with people and then you're like well i've lost their minute um so i was scattered going to festivals at that time that was 20 2017 yeah 2017 yeah so wait was you performing at that festival no no i was just there oh is it i know keno was performing at keno was on the stage that's right yeah yeah yes yes yes yes yeah oh man and we was in we was in wool isn't your neck of woods in it east london didn't it yeah yeah yeah yeah man i'm from plaster but we would be from plaster yeah okay but you're not in plaster no more no i live in a six yeah yeah yeah i can hear the twang I can hit the twang bro listen that twang listen when you're from East London I tell people all the time it's not I don't know you could call it cockney but East London's got its own twang the black people in East London have this it's like this Caribbean cottony twang it's hard to explain it's East London and you guys say words that they don't say anywhere else like what so like there was growing up there was a mook I'm not a mook bro I remember Disney saying that one it's actually a moot is it a moot yeah I'm not a muck.

2:43But a muck was Diddy's remix. Oh, okay.

2:46Mo Gilligan: See, I've never known this, bruv. No, it's a muck with a T. See, this is why we need people like yourself, the grime historians, you know, that can clear up what it is. Diddy's remix, that one. Oh, that makes sense, man. Okay, that makes sense, man. So you're from East London. Yeah. You grew up in a household of five brothers. Yeah. Five brothers. What was that like? five boys all close similar ages like in East London. How was early life back then? Very boisterous, I'd say. Because you're middle, right? The middle child, yeah. So what's it like for the middle child? Because I'm the baby of the family.

3:27Mo Gilligan: So you know the babies of the family, we get the best treatment. Do you know what I mean? We get a protection from mum and dad. So what's it like for the middle child amongst five other boys? well at one point I was the baby in it so okay I kind of went from being the baby to the middle child but I don't know I feel like I still got a bit of middle child complex yeah yeah I feel like that still lives with me today but it's cool was there a lot of fighting wrestling yeah there was always we got on quite well but obviously there was moments where you get me boys will be boys yeah yeah yeah so you grow up five brothers and your dad's a musician right yeah yeah drummer reggae band yeah man so being around music at such an early age was that kind of like your introduction of or i guess it's like led to what you're kind of doing now and like your family does now in some ways doing music but like what was that introduction like at that stage because there's you know it's like yourself and four other brothers yeah do you know what I mean I think I don't know I definitely took to it more than the others at that stage when I was growing up I think I traveled a lot with my dad to where they was playing I would be at their rehearsals a lot I paid a lot of attention to what they was doing I'd try and go on equipment whenever there was equipment at my house I would try and use it so yeah no so yeah I definitely took to it a bit more paid more attention to it than my brothers at the time did you ever play instrument because your dad was a drummer yeah I think I tried maybe but my attention span wasn't that great I don't think I took to it to be honest because if I anything that I do enjoy I really give it a good go so I don't think I really took to the instrument side of things I was always playing around with a drum machine though so yeah bro i bought a drum machine yeah probably about what three years ago yeah because i didn't know right with a drum machine that one you have to load in the sounds yeah but it's not as straightforward as just going like bro i was fighting for my life trying to get a snare and a kick yeah and then you got because in my head i was thinking because i I see the people that do on YouTube where they go boom, cat, cat, cat, boom, cat, that, that, boom.

5:54Mo Gilligan: So I thought, yeah, I could do this. Listen, it's not a joke, you know? Yeah. It's like a real R stream itself. A hundred percent. But if it's your first time, I think it would have been difficult for anyone. And those people who started would probably started just the same as you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would have got used to it. No, but I thought they would just load the tracks in, man. Nothing's going to be that easy. I thought all the tracks, as one guy who was making a rap beat, it's quite a viral video. He was making this rap beat on like a news channel. And it sounds like one of them dipset kind of beats with a sample.

6:24Mo Gilligan: And because I see Kanye West do it in a few videos, I was like, I could do this, bro. To be fair, you probably could. You just need to be around the right person to show you what to do. Do you know what I mean? So that's probably all it was. I mean, trying to work it out on your own, it's going to feel super technical. I was fighting for my life. In my head, I was like, yeah, come on, bro. Time to be producer, man. Oh, man. So you get a drum machine. You're around music with your dad. You've got your brothers. because your mum's a teacher as well. So how does music then start becoming a bit more serious?

6:57Mo Gilligan: Because I guess it's like, if you're around family with music, your mum's a teacher, very disciplined and stuff, and you've got your brothers around, I don't know, does that lead to distractions in a sense of, like you're saying, with the wrestling and play fighting to the point where you're like, when was the light bulb moment of, I want this to be serious and I'm good at this thing? I think for me, when I first started, My cousin was DJing and he was young. We're the same age. We're like months apart. Must have been 15. And I saw him mixing two Jungle Records together. And I couldn't work out how he was doing it.

7:30How are you doing that? This is sick. And he was trying to show me, but I didn't kind of get the hang of it. But I was surprised that he knew how to do it. So when I learned how to do it and I figured it out, I think when I took it outside of my home and I saw people were shocked that I was 15, them times like DJing now is a bit more common. but to be doing it at that age with vinyls, there was a lot of novelty around me. It was kind of like, anyway, I went like, show them what you can do to the elders. And you know what I mean? So I was like the little prodigy at the time. So I think that's when I started to really enjoy it.

8:03And it took me away from whatever else was going on around. You get me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just locked myself in a room and just focused on that, what I was good at. And from there it went. I always felt that I could do something with it.

8:17Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I guess the distractions, you're talking what, this is plaster in like late 80s, 90s. Not late 80s, I don't have years on to me. No, no, no, mid 90s. Mid 90s. I'm in my teens. I was born in the 80s though, but mid teens. So like, what's plaster? What's your environment like now? Because East London is a different East London now than it was, you know what I mean, when you was a teenager. So to stick by something as music, what's your environment like at that time? Because it's like anything, when anyone takes to a craft, you also have, you know, I'm going to do this after I get back from school or whatever you're doing or playing football.

9:04Mo Gilligan: But there's also like wherever you grow up, there might be madness going on. Do you know what I mean? So what's Plasto like at that time? Well, Plasto was, it's a different time where people didn't have social media, phones and things, but we had a lot to do. There was youth clubs and things like that, but there was also the other distractions outside of that, which was easy to get mixed up in because there probably wasn't... There was things to do, but there wasn't... It was a different time. It was rough at times. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was rough. What's in the water in East London, though? because the amount of talent that comes out of East London, especially, you know, during, like, the rise of Grime, because I felt like Garage didn't really know where people were from when it came to UK Garage.

9:56Yeah.

9:56Mo Gilligan: It was like, there's this song, they're talking about flowers, it's a rainy day, there's this other song, Rewind. I don't know where anyone's from, but this sound is like, I remember I was still quite young at the time, but Grime, it's like, I just, I knew everyone was from East. I just knew this. It's hard to explain. Like, everyone was from East. Like, everyone is like, oh, yeah, lethal. East. Kano. East. D-double. East. The sound originated there, so I think it's a natural thought process to just assume that everyone's from there, but it was definitely birthed in East London. I just think that's just a culture thing of people wanting to rap you know everyone doing everyone's lyrics in the playground and stuff and people wanting to express theirself in a more lyrical way that wasn't like the garage typical garage bars and I think what happened when everyone was doing that over garage the garage lot didn't like it so it was sort of a rebellious thing that like cool just DIY and it will do it ourself yeah yeah so we start making our own tunes and everyone started like rapping over Garage basically, but that style ended up becoming grime.

11:10Mo Gilligan: So at that time, you know, you come from a music background. Plasto is where you're from, where you've got, you know, whatever is happening in any area is going on. But also you have this emerging sound. And of course, at the time, you probably was this outlet. So it's a sound in it. We don't know that this is going to be even grime then. Do you know what I mean? Did it even have a name back then? When it first started, it was this dark garage. I don't know how to go into the grime. You know, I've heard this, but the reason why I ask, because I know you're from, like, East East, and you're a pioneer in this scene, so it's always good to hear it from, like, what's the phrase?

11:49Mo Gilligan: From the horse's mouth, if you want to call it that. Of, like, because we know it as grime now, but then wasn't there other words that it was called as well? Well, some people were calling it esky and things like that, but I think grime is what stuck grime is what stuck yeah because as a DJ you was playing like drum and bass in Garage right yeah so you're playing like what's popular at the time and you know you start forming like a group yeah like how does this then become like okay it feels like it's getting real now because I guess it's like once you form a group it becomes something you do with your friends like yeah this is a bit of a vibe you know when did it feel like it started to get like right people like someone from Birmingham yeah I think we travelled a lot that was that was crazy but it became the norm I think travelling to Milton Keynes Birmingham or wherever Manchester I think the Sidewinder tapes helped a lot Deja Vu helped a lot like radio stations recording tapes and people sending them up to their family out of the area but I feel to answer your question when I felt that things was changing and that we could be onto something but even though we were still in an infant stage I think was when we were pressing our own records and selling them and people was buying them and off the back of that when people was getting signed like the Dizzies and the Canos I think that's and Wiley of course the Lethal had Powell Moorfire crew had had a tune out I think the Moorfire Big Up Maxwell as well because he got serious assigned really early so that gave people a bit of hope obviously they're so solid but i think the more fire was the turning point the more fire crew oh really yeah because i think that's sort of pricked everyone's ears up in terms of we can do that too and then it starts to feel like did it feel like that because that was a crew at the time as opposed to an individual like dizzy potentially it was a crew and it was it wasn't the typical go that's grime probably wasn't birthed as in terms of a name at that point where more fire blew up with way you wouldn't have called that crime you i don't know what you would have called it like garage maybe which is why that that tune's sort of universal yeah do you know what i mean so it's crazy with oye because confession i'll tell you this right now yeah i used to tell people i was in that music video.

14:24Mo Gilligan: I was in school and I was not in that music video. Why did you say that? You know why, yeah? You saw someone. There was a guy in the music video. He's got this Nike zip up top at the same top. You can't really tell his face to yourself. So it was my claim to fame. I was like, I'm in that video, you know? People believe me in school. Really? Yeah, that's me, bro. He paused it. Couldn't be paused back then, didn't he? That's crazy. Can't pause it back then. Yeah, that's me in the video. Yeah. He's so funny. He said, why would you say that? Yeah, man. I said, yeah, I'm in the video, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:01Yeah, yeah.

15:02Mo Gilligan: So like, now that Grime is becoming, I say, it doesn't even have a name at this point, but you've got crews, you've got individuals doing their thing. Like, where do you start to position yourself? Because you're a DJ. and you know from what I remember back in the day it's like DJing is a lot different now than what it was back then do you know what I mean it's like even being a grime or even at the time it wasn't even grime like being a big time DJ like one I didn't even know what a lot of DJs look like I remember the first time I seen DJ EZ and I said this is him I couldn't believe because I'd listened to you know the mixes back in the day you know i mean dj he said like but i didn't know what he looked like and it was very much like i think i don't know if you can agree with this but i think it was like a really interesting transitional point where i felt like from judging it from hip hop where djs were like the main focal point in some ways and then it went to like a transition of like the rapper became or the the front person was at the focal point in some ways um how did you start to position like yourself as a dj i think my main thing was i was well aware that to stand out as a dj i need to be different i think he said i was i've been a fan of he said from from the beginning and seeing his style stood out to me it's like how you make a statement as a dj you don't you don't have words how can you stand what makes you different so i realized i I need to, my style was exciting anyway.

16:41So working with MCs brings up lots of complications in terms of how much you can do within a mix. No one wants to be MCing and you're there mixing for two minutes. Do you know what I mean? So what can I do to stand out? So it was finding ways to stand out within like a little eight bar, like quick trickery within that, get it out and stand out that way. So I think that was my voice within the audio. Do you know what I mean? So I focused on that and I really zoned in on that throughout the whole Nazi crew period. I think that's what made me sort of stand out without speaking.

17:18Mo Gilligan: Where did the name come from? What? Mac 10. The honest truth. Yeah, go for it. It was so random. I was on a train. I went to, I was on a radio station with my budging at the time and I used to use my name. My actual name was Naf Ramsey. My parents call me Naf. Yeah. so the person on that station who owned it said that they don't like that name and I couldn't use it because these garage DJs Ramsey and Fenn it's too close you know what I mean even though it's my name anyway I was like I need to change my name so I was just on the train and literally I just thought Mac 10 yeah Mac 10 that's my name I didn't know I knew what it was but I didn't know what it was and it suits my style it suits my style so I think yeah that's it wasn't no like yeah because I always have to ask these questions of how people get their names and yeah it's never what you think yeah no it just sounded dope on the train I was thinking that name come to me and I thought yeah that's it cuz in my head I'm gonna say how do you get the name Mac 10 what like was meant as DJ one time so I said but put that down I don't shoot but I don't shoot records I used to get all the time that they thought I was that some big guy like oh blah blah yeah it kind of sounds like that as well yes yeah yeah trust me i was super skinny then like proper so being a pioneer of such a like important scene and genre which now is you know seeing how you know you can type in polish grime you can type in brazilian grime japanese grime that was something that just definitely wasn't it you know it wasn't possible back then because there was no kind of you know youtube you're doing sets on sidewinder you know people side i really started to see sometimes even what people looked like just from like risky roads and stuff that's when i'd be like oh wow this is what this person looks like i've been listening to this person but when you start forming like a crew and people start finding their own success individually, you know, D-Double gets Kano.

19:32Mo Gilligan: How is it for you as your position as like, well, I'm the DJ. Do you know what I mean? I can't just go off and just do, do you know what I mean? Do a solo thing, essentially. So how does that start to make, do you know what I mean, you feel? Because that's why I go back to that transitional point where I feel like DJs were like the stars in a sense of my perception, even though I wasn't going out, it was like this DJ turns up to the club, you know, records and stuff. Do you know what I mean? And then it goes transitional to pirate radios where now I don't even know what this person looks like, but I know their name.

20:08Yeah.

20:09Mo Gilligan: So how does that kind of make you feel in some way? I think for me, like I said, I take it back to what I was saying before. I think for me, DJing in itself is super saturated. so you've got to stand out so my whole thing was just go out and make noise in a way that no one else has before so just in terms of technical ability so I just always thought that I think I was blessed in the beginning of when things sort of when everyone separated that I still had a chance of doing solo stuff and I was still doing it because of that that style that I'm talking about but I think that that main thing there for me it didn't really bother me because I believed that I could do it on my own.

20:51I genuinely did believe that I could achieve it. Was it also like pushing you into a place of producing records as well? Yeah.

21:01Mo Gilligan: Because I guess that must be like the route where you're like, okay, you know, you've got people doing an individual thing. How can I stand out more than just a DJ? You know, if you're growing up with a drum machine and stuff like this, you know how to make music. Yeah, 100%. I think I definitely had to find new ways to try and innovate and elevate what I was doing. So, yeah, production would have been one. And, yeah, production definitely. And how was it producing back in the day? Because you're pressing records, man. This isn't like now where you're like putting this on a SoundCloud and sharing it around.

21:35Do you know what? A lot more people took a lot more time in what they were putting out because you couldn't just put out garbage. Well, you could, but, you know, it wasn't as throwaway. now you can just literally finish something and upload it and there was a lot more of a process within that i think the time of pressing records i wasn't as into production i was around jammer a lot when he was producing he helped um me produce a couple tracks um so i kind of learned the basics from being around being around jammer um but yeah the process has changed it's a lot more a lot more easier to process.

22:17Mo Gilligan: Was there a togetherness at that time? Because there's so many crews and so many people that come from East London when it comes to Grime. And people that I've spoke to and they say, yeah, we all went to the same school or this person played football and that person's dad knows my dad. Like you're saying there with Jammer, was there a togetherness? Because I guess at this point, if there's only a few individuals finding success, I guess there isn't that crabs in a barrel mentality where it's just like we're all out for everyone's for their own do you know what I mean yeah I think like any if we're talking about specifically the nasty times I think at a time yeah of course there's togetherness I think that synergy was unmatched legendary you know I can't work the same with any other MCs outside of that crew I'll be honest and I've worked with some legendary guys and there's like some people who know how to control it but you when we was together like working together there was nothing else like it everyone knew when like it was just like a team like a property everyone knew you know this you just look at someone I know what time it is they know what was you know so but like any crew things happen and then everyone wants to go on their own separate ways when things start to feel a bit done over like too much it's come to a certain point it starts to feel a bit I don't know what the word is but you've done it enough and it's starting to sort of you know so and then I think that natural thing happens where people want to go off and explore their solo careers so that's just what happened it must have been like quite nice though to see people who were like part of your crew do their thing as a solo artist.

24:14Mo Gilligan: But no, you're like, yeah, like, we're in part of the crew as a musician, but, like, it's actually my friend. Yeah, yeah, it's actually my friend, but you know when you're young, yeah, those things don't hit like that. You don't look at it like that. You look at it like, bro, what about me? Oh, really? Yeah, cool, it's 100%. And there was a lot, a lot of that sort of, oh, yeah, you've gone off there and left us. You know, that's how it feels. No one really understands that the person's doing the right thing. And no one, also it's that mindset of no one really owes you nothing. Like they don't really owe us anything, really.

24:49And if they can do it, you need to fight and do it too.

24:52Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. But even though it feels like, oh, bring me, bring me, but it's not really, bring me. Do you think that's like a young mentality? And also because it's so new, everyone's discovering this all at the same time. Yeah, yeah, it's so new. Do you know what I mean? It's so new. I think that maybe when things like that happen, they could probably be, how they're dealt with, could probably be done a bit better. But at the end of the day, the reality is no one owes anyone anything. You know, like, that's it. Yeah, yeah. You get me? And if you want it, you go and get it yourself. You get me?

25:30Mo Gilligan: Because, you know, it's mad when I think of, like, growing up and listening to, like, pirate radio stations and it felt like if you captured that set on tape, you've captured it. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's not going to happen again. There's no, oh, if you listen back, you can get it on YouTube. And I feel like now you can find, you can search for stuff, everything's saved. In terms of archive, there's a lot of archive that you start to see from a pioneering time. How much archive do you still have? because I guess the reason why I ask is because that stuff is probably worth more than its weight now in gold.

26:12Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? You probably got things that you're like, bro, this dub plate here? Oh, man. It's a sore subject for me. My dub plates got lost. They got lost. Someone must have them. So whoever's got my dubs, return them. Return the dub plates, man. I've got a voice now. Return them, man. I'm here with Mo. Bring my dubs back. We'll speak. You get me? I'm putting it out there. Return the dubs. Yeah, I don't care. I'll send you my number. Send them to me an anonymous message on Insta or wherever. We'll work something out. But yeah, no, they got lost. Okay. So what, you say lost as in like someone took them lost or?

26:56Took them lost. Oh, wow. I don't know. They're lost. But someone owns them. They're very distinctive. Yeah. And they can't be played.

27:03Mo Gilligan: some of them so if you're playing certain tunes then you will know that i will know yeah so just do the right thing because i feel like grammy's in a place now where you know now it's like the reason why i bring it up because that that archive now is becoming the you know the longer time gets on it's more rare it's more rare you know you know you're telling us stories of like yeah we'd make this dub and we'd press it and even how you would make music is so different to how music is made now there's certain sounds that I hear and I'm like oh my god that takes me back knowing that you know people like yourself was like yeah I actually made that bass you're like bro you made that bass because now you can just press a button and the bass is there yeah so you're part of Nasty Crew people are finding their success you know what I mean Marcus Nasty that's your older brother yeah um you know i feel like your your family name is like is it's very powerful within music especially in grime do you know what i mean yeah like i remember hearing the name marcus nasty and never knew what it looked like i never knew i never knew what it looked like and some of your some of your your younger brother they come to my show sometimes and stuff as well um but how how does it feel like having what's that what's that pressure like though because if you're from a successful family and you know everyone you know like for example Marcus Nasty I knew of him never got I didn't know what he looked like until I got a little bit older and and then I start being like oh right is it's another brother and another brother another brother how does how does what's that was what does that pressure feel like it depends it's different times different times in my career when I felt pressured like I feel like there was a stage where I wasn't doing as much that felt like pressure yeah that felt like like a bit of pressure because it is an expectation of you to do well you know was that because of what your brothers were doing or just yeah 100 % I think if my brother's performing well then this is kind of like come on I want to do it as but it's like it's not happening yeah yeah that can feel quite like yeah I asked because I don't like I don't have older brothers but I could imagine there is a level of like that kind of camaraderie do you know I mean amongst when you're together of like yeah I've just done this yeah especially when you're

29:56I'm the opposite, though. I'll just stay quiet. I don't like to put those things out, because it feels a bit... You know what I mean? So, yeah. So, when we look at, like,

30:09Mo Gilligan: where we're currently at right now, you know, in the middle, you know, being part of Nasty Crew, and I know with your older brother, in terms of stepping into the sound of, like, house music and stuff, which is actually mad weird, so I was on the way back from somewhere yesterday, and I've seen a flyer for an event you've got coming up. I think it's on the 2nd of November. What one is that? Maybe 22nd. But it's like Terminal there, Super D. I see your name on there. I was like, oh, right, this is my podcast, right? Yeah, yeah. Cool, good. But like that transition of different sounds of, you know, like for example, you're playing at a house event.

30:48Yeah.

30:49Mo Gilligan: You also have an audience now. And at that event you're playing, I think it might be a brunch show. i'm not too sure i think it starts from 11 a.m to 7 p.m okay which that transition going from grime that felt like it was this underground thing it's in the top top top floor of a flat of a radio station is people have told me what that that the right the radio stations used to be like yeah and it's like bro it wasn't glamorous yeah like um you know and now you're in a place where, aside from what you're doing online, you're playing events now at 11am to 7. Your name is front and centre of Flyers alongside other DJs.

31:31Mo Gilligan: And you're now, you know, you're not just playing one sound. It's not just this sound, hoods up. No girls, just man. Yeah, but I'm right. It's now a sound which is, like, it's transcended. Like, what it started to do with, like, UK Funky House. how do you feel like your position is in that space now? Because it must open up a whole different universe for you in some ways as a DJ. Yeah, 100%. I think one of the good things is, I think this Saturday I'm doing Mac 10 and Friends, which is a whole headline show. Four rooms taking over the whole Ministry of Sound. That's my event. That's crazy, man.

32:12I know. Ministry of Sound. Ministry of Sound. The whole place.

32:15Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know, especially to have a resurgence to that level, I think it is really good in terms of, because, you know, you get to a certain, I got to a certain place in my career where I couldn't see it. You know, it's like, yeah, I'll probably do a few small clubs and a big one there and again. but to have this come back now 25th of this Saturday October yeah Ministry of Sound and we got you know Chip Wiley Spyro all of that Roll Deep and then in the other room like you were saying Super D Terminal 4 and in the other room it's Rampage and Loyal Squad I think me broadening my my my palette as such in regards in in regards to music is really important for me because I don't just like one music i enjoy playing more than one because you grew up you know your dad's in a band he's playing reggae yeah yeah exactly so i think i still keep it true to what i like but i like playing funky i like playing house and i like playing grime so i think some djs will tell you i think especially within the uk it's really like they've really got this thing where you can only if you're grime you can only do that if you're house just do that yeah but i'm blessed to be able to float around and be respected to some degree.

33:33Mo Gilligan: Do you think there's more of a togetherness now compared to like what you're saying when you first started because when you've got these separate singular crews from different parts of East London and yeah, people know each other and they've all gone to school with each other but there's probably like a loyalty of like yeah, you can't really jump on their set, you know. It's a bit awkward. Yeah, no, 100 % that's still there. people are a bit more respectful now you do get the odd flare up now and again

34:03but I think we're older and people understand we're here to do a job but every now and again someone will

34:12Mo Gilligan: because it's interesting how the crew you're part of and the people that came out of that crew and how they had their solo careers and they were front and centre gone on to many different paths and now you're front and centre now. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're the striker. You're up top. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, ping it. Play it to be long, you know? Like, I'm fucking around, bro. Like, I don't need the silky stuff. Just ping it up to me up top. I control it and bang it in. You know what? So how does that pressure start to feel now? Because when you've got, it's your name, Mac 10 and friends.

34:51Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Like, when you're saying friends, it's like it's not just any friends it's like Chip you know what I mean like now your name is front and centre what does that pressure start to feel like because as much as it's a music event you're also you know it's like you're not a one genre DJ so you know there's people who are coming to Mac 10 and friends that are like like Soulful House I like you get some people who say I'm grime that is my thing so you have a mixture of different audiences that are coming because of what they see online but also they're like cool like friends I trust this person as Mac 10 to introduce me to these people that I know some I might not know someone who is hardcore grime is going to go into this house room and be like well this is alright you know you got Terminal in there this is the Terminal 4 like so how does that pressure start to feel in some ways because it's not just music now it's events it's social media you know like what you were saying I think that is a different type of pressure now.

35:53I think the pressure now is I feel also like a sense of it sounds mad but a sense of I've got to watch how I conduct myself within what I'm doing because I know the position I'm in for instance with what I'm saying, what I'm doing and how I'm presenting things to people and a great example of that is even with like my platform for instance, I want to make sure that people are heard like the audio is right everything like that because I want people to be presented to people in their best way so I feel a responsibility in that sense of that and also a responsibility if I've got a platform and I do want to push house that I'm going to give people it in its best form so I'm aware of that so and if I do have that I want to do it because it's authentic as well I don't just want to so yeah that's the responsibility and pressure that I feel and I've I've probably put on myself but yeah that's it so

36:57Mo Gilligan: and how did it what was the light bulb moment of saying I'm going to get my turntables go outside I'm going to be in London Bridge or a petrol station football stadium you name it I'm going to take this outside how did that how did that even come about do you know what that's me just like it was almost like being given a second chance i can't i can only explain it as that way and that i had a new lease of life and like i saw the others going outside they was going outside and stuff and i was streaming on tiktok as well but i was just doing it from home and in studios and the numbers wasn't the same so i thought let me go outside because obviously the numbers change when you go outside in terms of streaming the numbers fly up for some reason when you're outside people just find it engaging so I did that and then it turned into me like just well I'm enjoying this so I have my stuff in my boot yeah yeah yeah and I just pull up and just just do my thing I wasn't doing that much at the time so it was my thing that I do and it was just pure passion driving me so it looks like you know what's mad is the fact that you walk around with the decks in his hand Yeah, so that's...

38:10Mo Gilligan: You're like, listen, on the middle of Uncle Steve, just pulling it up. Like, what problems does that face, though? Like, because there's one thing, you know, taking it outside, but it's that you're outside making music. I can't... Because obviously, you show us the bit where you're like, all right, cut that, that's going to bang. But I seen you on the middle, the middle of Oxford Street, bruv. The first thing that came to mind was like, well how did he pull that off? How did he pull that off? You know what, with these things you've just got to do it. My thing is just do it. Yeah, yeah. It's slightly unruly and a bit of like I've got to get this shot like I'm doing it.

38:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the more riskier for me the better. Like I want to do crazy.

38:56Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know, so. How crazy does it get that you ever get in trouble with a, obviously like with the police or the councils or anything? I think at the end of the day I'm doing music. What harm am I causing? You know, I might, if I'm being a nuisance or to something like I'm not ridiculous I'm not going to be and if someone asks me like bro you can't do that I'm going to stop but more time it's just music please don't really say nothing sometimes please stand there and watch you know so it's not really as long as I'm not like running through some like you know corporate building which I would I'd do you've done that well I did it at ministry with a turntable I did it at ministry I did it at ministry in their offices yeah what did they do they were just did they like it they watched yeah yeah because it's ministry yeah we couldn't have posted on it yeah yeah yeah so I'm sorry so now you're you're taking the music outside I feel like it's going back to what Graham started off as do you know what I mean it was like we're just gonna do it do a set just do it we're just gonna clash if you start fighting at the end of it we start fighting but we're just gonna clash and it's like what you're doing now of taking it outside to the people and you know there's times where it's just you and an MC yeah and it's just you two yeah I don't know what time of the day is 4am yeah or 10pm and it isn't there is no one there there's no crowd it's just the person performing outside yeah it strips back everything but also gives musicians a platform to showcase what they're able to do do you know what I mean yeah like and giving back um that's i don't know you know when i when i look at it and not a lot of people would do that do you know i mean that's a big thing that you do because i feel like my this is just my personal opinion on when it comes to like music at the moment of like i feel like we had a massive wave of black music whether it was you know we had grime and then uk rap and then drill and people getting chart success that I feel like we'd never seen.

41:04Mo Gilligan: And to see what you're doing of, you know, listen, but going back to square one, I've got the turntables, I'm going to write, and you're playing some real grime instrumentals, you know? Bruv, some of the tracks you're playing, yeah? I sit there, I'm like, we used to listen to this in youth club, bruh. Oh, shit. You're playing some tunes, man. Thank you. And like, I feel like it's just taking all of the whether it's the record labels or the I don't know how it works in music you've got to talk to the manager and it's going back to the bare bones a little bit how do you feel with that? because that must be a joyous feeling to kind of be mentioned in the sense of like yeah man, Mac 10 he's bringing the thing back again you know what I mean?

41:51but do you know what? at first it was super daunting and I don't think a lot I was trying to get to this point from the beginning, obviously, I'm out of the gate, like, yo, Chip, or DMing people, like, yo, come in, and they're looking at it like, what are you? I'm not sure, I don't know what's going on there. Are you alright? Do you know what I mean? Like, some people did, I used to get phone calls of people asking me, am I alright? They genuinely thought I wasn't alright.

42:16Mo Gilligan: They thought you were just going through it in an episode? Yeah, yes, they thought I wasn't alright. Really? Honestly. I used to get calls, yeah, am I alright? What's going on? I'm like I've got a call, someone's telling me to check up on you to be honest yeah people didn't understand it but I'm like I'm good I'm living my best life this is what I'm doing I just I was just outside I was just outside so yeah I think getting it up to the point where people did want to sort of collaborate partner or do things you know it made it it was heartwarming you know to think like wow people actually taking what I'm doing serious because I went for a long period of not being taken serious.

43:00I felt, you know, so.

43:02Mo Gilligan: And speaking of heartwarming, I go on YouTube one day, I'm scrolling, and I'm like, Dizzy Rascal and Wiley. Yeah. And I was like, what? I swear to you, I looked at the date it was posted and it was like, this was posted three days ago. And I was like, nah nah nah this must be maybe like an old set or something but i see that the videos in high definition do you know i mean already i'm like well what's this then you know sometimes you go on youtube and it might be like i don't know like a clickbait yeah i said there's no way there's no way how did that conversation even start because before i even watched it i've sent that to the WhatsApp group.

43:52Mo Gilligan: Like, I think I'll watch about, I'll be like, I'll be like, about five seconds. And when I seen it, we're both there in person. Yeah. I said, that went straight to the WhatsApp group. And you know that sometimes you'll send something, me and the guys will send something to the WhatsApp group. Some people watch it, some people don't. Yeah. And within the first two, three minutes, I'm getting fire emojis on the video, innit? Yeah. All the boys. And I just sat and watched this video in pure silence. Where we're right now in life, where I had a cup of tea, I had my sandwiches. I said to my girl, I said, babe, don't bother me, I'm trying to watch this.

44:29Mo Gilligan: I was concentrating on every part of that video because a part of me, I had so many questions. I was like, okay, so what? They're really together, like back to back. How did that conversation even start? Dizzy Rascal and Wiley. I had to, I wanted to ask you this as soon as you got in the room. I had to compose myself I was like let's speak about the jacket first so how did that come about? I think well I did an essence with Dizzy and that was dope that was dope and I feel like we created a vibe that was like the whole sidewinder days there's a lot of nostalgia within that set and like you explained before it was just me and him on a rooftop just vibes in and I messaged Dizzy like after and Dizzy was like bro do you want to do this live I've got an idea like we'll get the truck we'll pull up in Shoreditch announce it three days before he was DJing from the truck he was DJing from the truck yeah yeah yeah yeah we got to do things wait that was in Shoreditch in the kind of underground in the tunnel yeah near the station and I didn't ask Wiley to attend that yeah well I was hoping yeah yeah you could only hope yeah so Disney weren't even there yet I think I looked round and one of the first people I saw walking through was Wiley on his own and I just thought no way you know because in my heart I'd want that to happen but I'm not thinking about 20 years I'm thinking about for me as a fan them two together would be sick I'm not thinking about no you get me so I even forgot about the beef or if there was one and when you have you text him to come no no you've not you know he told us so he's just wondering through lucky one is yeah yeah yeah

46:41and I said to him please tell me you're staying it he looked at me so yeah yeah I'm here I'm here to support you was his words you know what right I was gonna come by

46:51Mo Gilligan: but brother cause it's you no I remember I won't forget he said I'm here to support you cool so then obviously Dizzy's Dizzy's turned up I've announced Dizzy make some noise to Dizzy everyone's making noise I said there's someone else lurking about as I've said that Dizzy's just shouted up Mac just call him here call him here let's do it tell him to come over I said yeah I said make some noise for Wiley and then Dizzy was on the truck when Wiley got on the truck everyone just went mental and then I was there if you watch it I'm in awe as a fan I'm not aware of what's actually happening even afterwards I'm not aware of what's happening I think it's definitely I caught a moment but I wasn't aware I caught a moment till like I sat down that evening and I was like okay shit something more than what I thought happened yeah yeah yeah i just wanted to party for my years i'll be honest that's all i'm about i just want to have moments and vibes with people no one vibes anymore do you know what i mean they got their phones out or it's some foolishness i come and perform my tune and i go that's not the era i grew up in i grew up in where we we vibes you get me so that's my thing that's my all my thing is i want to enjoy myself and other people to enjoy their self how we used to yeah not the phone and I turn up, I do my tune and I don't even vibe out to my own tune properly.

48:17It's not the same. Do you know what I mean? Everyone wants to do a concert.

48:21Mo Gilligan: I want to rave. Yeah. I want to make some tunes, man. That's all that was and that's what happened and that's all what, if I'm honest, that's what my thing's always been about and anything that happens outside of that, great. So I hope to always be that way. Obviously, we've got to live, we've got to earn and certain things have to be done in a certain way. But my whole ethos, I want it to be just authentic and vibes. That's it. So when you've got Dizzy Rascal, you've got Wiley. Yeah. They're going back to back. Yeah. Because I was watching it and there's a part of me that I can, I feel like for you, it's like I don't want to stop DJing, you know?

49:03Yeah.

49:04Mo Gilligan: I'll keep going as long as... Yeah, 100%. I guess you're the, you know, you're the DJ. So it's very easy to be like, cool, thanks for coming guys. But it almost like, if I don't stop the music, they will keep going. Yeah. But also, you want to leave a bit of FOMO. You don't want to overdo it. It's really important to know when to stop. Don't let them go like that and then it goes. No, capture that moment and leave them like, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so there's some of that as well. You've got to be strategic in the timing. How's the reaction been? Because, again, I was as excited just to ask you how it all came about.

49:42Mo Gilligan: But it's after it's happened now. And, you know, I felt like even when it was up, it was just like, there you go. I've got it. Some people could sit on that for a few weeks and keep teasing it. Guys, check in, man. This time, 10 o 'clock. It's important for me to do things and do them quickly. Just get them out there. I think with something like that, if we didn't do it, someone would have uploaded little snippets. We had it ready. We was editing that night straight back. yeah but I had it ready that night to go yeah you know but it was so late like it was probably finished about 12 or 1 in the morning but it was just ready to go at 8am yeah yeah so we just let it go so being a DJ now mhm what's your thoughts on being a DJ now because there is this I guess it's like a fine balance of you know I discover DJs now on SoundCloud or YouTube that are in different parts of the world and I'm like I love the way they mix this with that or they got great mixes, transitions, whatever you want to call it.

50:46Mo Gilligan: And almost like anyone can pretty much DJ. Do you know what I mean? You know, when you get, you know, some of those USB and you can press the Q button. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The sync button, you mean. That's the one. Yeah. And it auto-syncs it. Yeah, yeah. So how was it for you? Because I guess it's like you're a pioneer who started on, and I always hear some of these debates through DJs and friends of, I know, it's like, yeah, you know, going back to, I don't know, vinyls or that. Because there's always those that, but can they do it? It's like, can they do it at a rainy day on, in Stoke? Do you know what I mean?

51:26Yeah, yeah.

51:27Mo Gilligan: So where do you stand in this? Because you're a pioneer. You're going to have a new generation who are kind of listening to every word you say and what you do, you know. but where are you with DJing now because I feel like you know like online you know there's keep scrolling you'll see someone do a mix of something do you know what I mean DJs are the new celebrity now in my opinion okay you know I think with that I mean I am old school and I'm all for promoting the actual craft of DJing like mixing technical stuff and finding ways to stand out it's great but for me I'll always say selection like selection is key if you can't like I'm if a DJ wants to sync and you want to get into DJing and it's going to like make you pay interest into DJing and you get to enjoy the feeling of being a DJ go for it just focus on your selection anyone who's out there saying that are these DJs who sync I'm like we're in a new age and it's going to introduce new people into this and the DJs keep the music alive and all of that in my opinion anyway and in clubs and stuff we need more DJs and let them introduce their self that way and just focus on your selection.

52:42It's about you're performing for a party you want to get the party started you're there to entertain whether you're sinking or not who cares no one knows if I'm sinking or not you know the person just focus on your selection don't ignore the noise of that and don't make anyone feel like you're not a DJ because you're sinking you know

53:01Mo Gilligan: learn that if you've got to learn backwards learn the backwards but who cares I don't care anyway do you ever just want to say to a DJ what can you do it on panel though no no no can you do it no like you know I think there's so many layers to DJ and for me it's a science you know I don't look at it as just two decks and you just mix the two tunes there's a lot of stuff going on in your thought process it's almost saying to a footballer you just run and kick the ball do you know what I mean just pass it yeah yeah yeah there's a whole lot of things going on you know before that even happens you get me so it's a similar thing so now as a DJ you're creating these iconic moments with you know your shows that you're doing and having the likes of Dizzy Rascal and Wiley which is interesting because we sit there previously and we're speaking about you know archived moments and stuff and knowing that now you've you've captured that and that was you know there'll be people watching that in the next 20 years and your name is in that conversation do you know i mean that's the first time i have seen that in my lifetime of being like raw wiley and dizzy rascal and the way it was uploaded i was like again i was scrolling i was like oh i didn't i didn't even know this was a thing like but it's like you know now you're in this place of like you have this archive from you know being in nasty crew and who your family are and some things like you're saying where you don't have some of these dub plates but you're creating new archive of giving these artists the the pleasure of just performing you know when it's there's no label there's nothing it's you know whatever time you're filming you're shooting in Oxford Street it's this new archive that now is on YouTube that anyone can consume anywhere in the world yeah which is taking you to to different places where where is it taking you now as a DJ because it's like i was saying i feel like djs are the new celebrity i know what like there's kids now who know what the dj looks like they can see how you mix you can teach them essentially on like a tiktok yeah um so where is that taking you because it must open it up to i don't know whether it's brand deals residencies um yeah you are now the superstar do you know what i mean it's not the man with a mic it's the DJ you know I mean yeah I think I think that to hear that is good for me because I just think if we can get other people into it and DJs can feel that way that's great because I always probably wanted to be who I am today but couldn't see how it was achievable I always felt that I could do it but it's just i don't know i just sort of just had an idea and ran with it and i just feel like to do something like this you just got to be confident and go for it and to your question i think my where this goes for me i think is production and the stuff i put out it will be you know on my label you know i'm going into clothing and fashion and just it sort of widening my horizons let's say you know so residencies like you said there's brand deals you know so just got to find ways to elevate and up the production and other concepts of content you know i want to keep going and for me the pressure of now is what next you know just always what next because you know and speaking of next you you you're on you got residency at kiss extra At Kiss Extra at the moment, till the end of the year, so yeah.

56:48Mo Gilligan: That's huge, man. Because that's on the airwaves. It's on the airwaves. Which is, like, when I think of a medium of entertainment, yes, you've got podcasts, you've got television, but radio is, like, one of the original forms of communication. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And you've got a residency. How does this feel now? because I guess it's probably a lot different from just, I've got to go outside and create this music video. Well, not to say music video, but I'm going to play some music. I've got an artist or I've got Mac 10 and friends. I've got to get everyone together. I'm on the phone to Dizzy.

57:29Mo Gilligan: I've got Wiley there. I can create something. Now you're taking it to people and they're going to be tuning in and they're like, oh, I'm not familiar. like you know you're gonna get people that are like oh I'm not familiar with the music you play you're gonna you'll be introducing yourself to a new audience around the world because that's where radio goes now do you know I mean yeah so how is this starting to feel because I feel like yeah radio is this like it's not pirate there's no DTI do you know I think in a sense like with what with what I've created, some would argue that I may not need to go on radio but I think different, I think for me I've always been a fan of radio I've come from that era and I think it gives me the opportunity like you said to get to a new, reach a new audience also to showcase that I don't just play one genre and it allows me to sort of open that up and explore new music bring people in with their new music it just gives me another platform to give other people a voice as well as well as showcase that I can play different genres.

58:37So yeah, for me it's good and it's good.

58:39Mo Gilligan: And are you trying to change the way that people are going to listen to radio? Because you have a style and you have a consistency of how you do your videos where it's like very raw. It's like you're saying, I'm going to go to the Ministry of Sound corporate building and we're going to play. Whereas when it's radio, it's like public radio, there's certain rules that you've got to stick by. You can't break the mould, but are you planning on keeping the authenticity that you have grown to grab an audience from? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. I think it's really important for me to do that.

59:15I think if I'm on a station like that, I'm there because of what I'm doing at the moment. So I think it's really important. And I can't do anything else but authentic. If it don't feel right, it won't last with me. I have to do things that are authentic. or I'd rather not do it. I don't care what the person says or do you know what I mean? I'm one of those. I'm quite stubborn with what I'm doing. So I won't really conform to a level it's not enjoyable. Yeah. You know.

59:45Mo Gilligan: So then when you look at your end, right, of where you are, because I feel like you've had a really beautiful full circle moment in some ways of being part of an iconic group as DJ, producer, that some people would have heard like things that you've produced. They would have heard you on radio, but as a DJ, didn't get to hear your voice, didn't get to see your face in some of those early grand days to then come full circle to the point where you are on Oxford Street. You are bringing Dizzy Rascal and Y together. You're on Kiss. You've got Mac Ten and Friends. You've got brand deals. And now you're at this full circle moment where there's a new generation of DJs, like you're saying, where, you know, you're saying like, if the way you learn to DJ is pressing the sync button, and so be it.

1:00:36Mo Gilligan: As long as the tracks are good, the tracks are good. So where does that lead you now in terms of your end in some ways? Because you're going to be the reference point for a lot of DJs. You know, you already are. There's DJs out there who, when they, like you said, like EZ, like, yeah, EZ, when I watched him do this, And it'll be the same thing. There'll be DJs out there that was like, this man is mixing with the turntable in this hand. And the artist there, there's a mic. And how are you doing that? Because I'm just used to being here. So now you are the new reference. So how do you start to position yourself as you get older and as you get into a space of, you're the godfather of this thing.

1:01:22Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? how do you start to look at that part of the second chapter of your life as as a musician when you say how do i start to look at it in what sense in a sense of what do you plan for the legacy to be because yes you know people can look back at yeah what you've done before but like again everyone coming in there'll be people watching you know dizzy rascal and wiley and be like right Because you just said the selection. So already they're like, okay, I'm on the selection now. I don't need to worry about mixing. So I think that's where, I think if we're speaking on legacy, I think elevating from that, I've got something I'm working on where obviously I hold those turntables like an instrument.

1:02:08So we're taking that live with a live band. That's my next thing is to the MAC10 live. That's, you know, so, you know, I think crazy. So you can imagine, and if you can't imagine, just know that. is going to be a whole performance. It's going to be Mac 10 Live. Yeah, yeah, Mac 10 Live. Fair enough. So that's the next thing. And obviously, I feel like having a label and using that as a blueprint and in that way a legacy can continue to grow so we can sign people's music and people come on the platform and stuff happens within some of these moments that can go and should be a track so we can produce that, we can put that out.

1:02:45So we just want to start taking some ownership and also providing people with that lane as well, you know, and do it in the right way so that things are being distributed correctly, promoted correctly, you know, we've got a platform to do both, you know, so do that, build some legacy around there and focus on business as well, so just show that. I think this is more for me. You know, I'm not one of those ones that say, I'm doing this for help. If my best way of leading by it, as an example, is just doing me. And I hope it resonates with you, then it's good I'm not doing it for the people to it's like it's better if I just do it genuinely from a good place and then it may resonate so I feel like just use this opportunity that I've got while eyes are on me to explore as many opportunities as possible and fashion is one of them if I've got eyes on me I dress well I dress well yeah

1:03:40Mo Gilligan: so yeah we'll do fashion innit I guess what you're saying it's not pigeon it's not it's not pigeonholing yourself in a place of like i'm just a dj do you know what i mean it's like i'm a you you're a brand you know what i mean it's it's like mac 10 is a brand of whether it's fashion live events it's still what people are like on social media yeah but i guess it's also you know you're bringing you're bringing music to people in a way that i feel like I don't think I've seen a DJ do in a way that yes I've seen a DJ in a club and I've seen DJ do you know events you know a lot of DJ do live events whether it's with orchestras and stuff but there's a rawness that you have that I feel is really really cool and unique you know in a sense of like you're doing stuff in the street like it's interesting what you're saying about having turntables as an instrument do you know what I mean because that's the one thing I always pick up on.

1:04:42I'm like, how's he doing this, man? Is it wireless?

1:04:45Mo Gilligan: But it's amazing to see and the fact that you are bringing through so many new artists but still giving the platform to emerging artists, not sorry, emerging artists, but artists that we know and we love, you know, and they're not getting forgotten about because that can be very easy at the same time and be like, well, let's get a new person on. Yeah. You know, it's a major credit to what you give to the scene. Do you know what I mean? Thank you. And even for me, that little teenage boy comes out and I'm like, oh, Ra, where are they going back to back? Like, I can't thank you enough for that, you know?

1:05:22Mo Gilligan: Thank you. Because, bro, when I sat down, it's funny because we all said, we're like, Ra, we're getting old now because we're watching this video, like drinking a cup of tea or like on YouTube, you know, that wouldn't have been possible back in the day. Do you know what I mean? Watching on YouTube and stuff. but no it's it's a pleasure to have you on the pod but yeah for what you're doing for your legacy and just knowing that there's so many djs out there that want to hear what you have to say do you know what i mean and i don't feel like a lot of djs get the platform like this to express openly of like you know just even that question of like it's not about mixing you know there'll be a lot of djs i'm not mixing tonight you know you know or even with a drum machine you know like I wanted to get a drum machine, but knowing I was like, it ain't for me, man.

1:06:09Mo Gilligan: I can't lie, I might have to just go off the dust of that machine tonight, you know, bro. You see me making beats, bro. Yeah, do it. But no, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the pod, man. To see what you're doing, bro, I admire it, man. Thank you. You know what I mean, bro? Like, and I know some of your brothers, they come to the shows and stuff and whatnot. So, yeah, man, appreciate you coming on the pod, Mac 10. And my friend, this has been your beginning, middle and end. thank you very much bro thank you man yes hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace