Ep 100 - How Sir Lenny Henry Changed British Comedy Forever

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and right now you're tuned into my podcast, Beginning, Middle and End. Now, today's guest is a comedy legend, a knight of the realm, and the co-founder of Comic Relief, and one of the reasons a whole generation of black British comedians thought, hmm, maybe that could be me one day, here to talk about his first tour in 16 years. Please welcome to the podcast, the legend, Sir Lenny Henry. so um this is a direct outcropping from your online work isn't it yeah this is this is me getting older Lenny this is this is where I'm at now because you know I love the online stuff and I still do it but the podcast for me feels like I think I do it one because I get to learn so much about the people that I'm so interested in how many do you do a week I probably do one a week we have three guests so one day but it's so different from tv because you know what it's like with tv it's a okay cool we've got to get to that bit and we've got to throw to that bit and then once you know when i was doing like later show for example heavily edited you've got different parts of it and there'd be so many conversations that were so fun that would get missed so i think for me doing a podcast felt like oh how can i capture that and not get those conversations missed and also i needed a thing i needed my usp of like when i do this pod i need like a what's the in i don't want to talk about me and it'd be a funny podcast because i've got my other things to be funny with i wanted to have a podcast where i was i need a thing that it's a continuous theme and then beginning middle and end of where this is the theme yeah so where i was in life was always do you know what it was it was every time i'd go on tv and it'd be like so mo man oh it's great to have you here.

1:49But he was working in retail.

1:52Mo Gilligan: And I was like, yeah, but, you know, I've been doing this, you know, I've not been doing it long, but long enough that I'm like, I've got some other stuff to talk about, guys. Retail was a long time ago. But I know for television, it was the - Let's go back to the very beginning. When I hear those words, I'm like, oh, for God's sake. When did they stop doing that? I'm 67. Let's go back to the, let me go put my pyjamas and my slippers on, man. this is gonna be a long show but it's like sometimes i'll be there to you know what it's like especially live tv for example and you've got probably three minutes to promote your book your tour your podcast and it's like so tell us what was it like working in retail at christmas and i'm like oh guys come on man we i'm on the clock but that's just about research that's yeah sometimes i went on the show uh recently where the the host came out and talked to me outside so you wait in the like chairs and you're waiting to go on and the radio host coming to talk to me for about 10 minutes he put three records on to talk to me about what was going on in my life now yeah and then when we went on air it was like a seamless interview yeah because he'd already he'd done his own prep work yeah and i really admired that i thought oh good for you man that's that's not let's go back to new faces yeah yeah what was it like on tizbox you know you always want to talk about now because now is where it's at now is what you're doing you know you're acting in a play or you're doing this new show or now is what's getting your blood going yeah to go to be made to go backwards is a kind of a weird thing for us because we're like hello i'm doing this now and it's maybe it's hard if you're not doing anything but for me i'm always doing something so it's yeah yeah no i'm doing this now we are going to go back today though let's go back to the very beginning back to the beginning can i just say before we start thank you so much for doing this because I remember do you I don't know if you remember the first time I met you I met you at the BAFTAs backstage didn't I come and say hello to you yeah you did and I got beef with me or something no but I couldn't believe you knew who I was of course no I swear to you I didn't know if you knew who I was I was proper starstruck you know you're real funny I was very much like are you shy I am because when I came to mass singers you were a bit weird was I I wasn't weird no I don't think you were it's like do you have an earpiece and something but you weren't talking to me very much no so you know okay okay you know the only other black person here is not talking to me you know when you got revealed right when especially when he was going to get revealed i was like i think this is i think this is lenny but then there's a series of questions but it's really like can i get in to ask the question and then because i'm like and uh and uh so i didn't get so when you look at it especially you look at the edit.

4:37Mo Gilligan: I'm like, I didn't get to. You guys are very competitive. It's very funny watching you fighting for the jokes and fighting for the, to get your foot in the, just let me say what I want to say. It's very funny. And when I was on the panel, I felt so freaked out by it. I just thought what this show is the bizarrest show in the world, but I did love it. I do like, I do like it as a show and I do watch it when I'm at home. Yeah. It was weird being on it though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, I don't know. You know, I was wearing, I was wearing a mask in the car and a t-shirt on do not talk to me I had to wear gloves oh dear but I was it's mad because it's weird because it's when it's TV and I've grown up like grown up with you do you know what I mean I've grown up in the sense of I've watched you know I've watched you on my television so even meeting you at that time for the BAFTAs was like oh bro meeting like one of my heroes but he knows who I am which is always even for me to this day if anybody reaches out and says, hey, what's up, Mo, like, how are you?

5:39Mo Gilligan: I'm like, oh, right, you know who I am. Because I think - I kept saying to you, every time I met you, I kept saying we should meet and talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. When's that going to happen, by the way? Here we are, here we are, then. Here we are, Sir Lenny. And we're on telly. Yeah, yeah, here we are. So I just wanted to say thank you so much. Well, thank you. Thank you for keeping the faith, you know. There's so many people who are trying to, you know, Gina's in Costa Rica now and London's in LA. people are kind of they're they're not giving up on working in the uk but they're certainly not feeling the love as it were in terms of broadcast television um but what's great about you is your you seem to be body swerving that oh and go well i'm going to do this now i'm going to do this now you're not you're not so you're going this is where i am this is what i want to do yes i go to america but i'm going to come back and i'm going to keep doing this because my base your your main fan base is here.

6:30Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now you find out that there's another fan base too, which is brilliant. So congratulations.

6:35Mo Gilligan: Yeah, no, thank you so much, sir. Sir Lenny. You know, you know what was really interesting when I seen you at Buckingham Palace? Yeah. Yeah. And like, you look so comfortable there. Because I've never been here before. Not even a biscuit, you know. When I got a CBE, they didn't even give you biscuits. I was like, what is this place? Not even a cup of tea for the CBE. Because obviously me and my mum were so shy. We were like, raw, like we're walking in palace. And I remember I see you, he was like, oh, what's going on? You all right? Hello, mum? You all right? Say, yeah, yeah, come on. We're going in this room.

7:09Mo Gilligan: I said, all right, let me be there for all. Right, Jeff. But you know, like with the pod, obviously, like you're beginning, you're from Dudley, right? Yeah. And you got seven siblings. Three brothers, three sisters. I lost my brother Seymour last year. and I lost Hilton a couple of years ago before that. So when you've got a family, it's like we have to look after each other and we have to – you get into a thing where you think people are going to be around forever and you go – the majority are older than me now. So Hilton passed away when he was 74. Seymour was 76 when he died. We've got to stay on that and be in touch.

7:53I saw my sister the other day. I saw Bev Murther's sister. I'm trying to be more present in their lives. Because you can get into a thing when you're in showbiz particularly, yeah, man, they'll be all right. Oh, come and see my show. But actually, sometimes they can't see your show. So you need to go and see them. And I'm trying to do more of that now. It's important.

8:12Mo Gilligan: Was it hard finding your voice amongst so many siblings? Because I've only got two. I've got two of my older sisters. I'm the youngest as well. Well, I got to, there were Seymour, Hilton, Bev, Kay. the four eldest now born in Jamaica and me Sharon and Paul were born in the UK so they weren't really they were Kay was four years older than me so she was in our lives but Seymour Bev and Hilton were kind of grown-ups and had families and stuff so I'd see them but they weren't they weren't in my life as much as Kay and Sharon and Paul were so you know when Hilton and Seymour when Bev were around, you kind of were on your best behaviour.

8:54And Bev lived with us for a bit, so she would, like, hit you with a tea towel. Yeah, yeah. Because she was like replacement mum when mum wasn't there. Yeah. What do you mean? But Bev, I love Bev. Bev's my oldest sister. And they were very close to us, but they were very kind of, you're the kids, we're the grown-ups. And that was interesting. Seymour lived with us for a bit, and then he left home, went and joined the RAF. And we were like a unit, and we were all proper Jamaican. We grew up Jamaican. We spoke Jamaican. We were spoken to in Jamaican. We ate Jamaican food. And then when I got to be about 14, 15, I do it as a bit on stage, but mum literally stood us all up and said, you must integrate, you know, you must talk to these people.

9:37You can't just be in the house doing this. You've got to go outside and you've got to talk to them. Because it was a time of rivers of blood and, you know, race riots and stuff. And mum said, you've got to make friends, otherwise you're not going to survive around here. Because Dudley was, Rivers of Blood was Wolverhampton. And if you want an N-word for a neighbour, vote Labour was down there in Smithwick. So we were in the middle. And it was racism. Every day at school, we had to deal with it. I don't know if you had to deal with it so much, but it was a living, breathing thing, going to school every day.

10:08Yeah, yeah. And I found it. My dad never taught me to fight. I took my daughter to Jude, Judo, Judo, Kingdo.

10:19Mo Gilligan: I just took her to everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I was back, Lexi Salle said to me, you should go and do Wing Chun because I was telling him, I'm making jokes about how I can't fight. And so I went to do Wing Chun with Rodney Moylon. And it was, I really enjoyed it. And I just thought, oh, you got to, you don't, you can't get distracted if you're in a fight, you know. I remember this guy called me a name and I said, you can't call me a name. And I did this like this. And I got distracted and punched me in the eye. You can't get distracted in a fight then. You've got to pay attention.

10:49So there were all those things going on. And Seymour was brilliant. Seymour was the kind of, he never spoke with an English accent ever. He wasn't like us. Everything was that. He must pick up a brick and hit them in the face with it. What? Pick up a brick and last them with it. I'm not doing that. I'm eight. I'm not going to hit somebody with a brick, Seymour. But he was deadly serious. because when they first came to the UK, Seymour didn't come until 64 or something, and they were being attacked on the street by just walking, imagine walking down the street and somebody just jumps on you and starts, and they started to carry sticks and stones to fight people off with.

11:29And what year is this we're talking? 63, 64. Oh, wow. They were being attacked, so they fought back, and people, and Jamaicans had a really funny reputation because Jamaicans didn't take any crap from anybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Seymour and Hilton did not take any crap from anybody. And they would fight for themselves. Yeah, yeah. And I was very proud of that. But they never taught me how to fight. And so I'm on my own, going to school. People jumping on me, kicking me. We had an England schoolboy boxer at my school. And it was all right in the end. But because I was a big kid, he used to practice body punches on me.

12:02Henry, stand here.

12:05Mo Gilligan: They would do that to me. I mean, it was a school trip. Did you feel like, especially being like a young black boy in the Midlands, and being Jamaican, you had to have a bit more of a thicker skin as well. Do you know what I mean? Well, yeah, because otherwise it gets punched through. I mean, there were black kids in my school. There were about three of us in my class.

12:30And it was challenging. But you know when you're a kid at school, you just think this is the normal thing.

12:36Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, of course. To me, it was just, oh, well, sometimes I get attacked at school. Sometimes dogs chase me. Sometimes people pick on me. But I've just got to get through this. and then there were good parts to it. I made friends on the park. I had these three white guys called Greg Mack and Tom and they became my best friends on the park. And park was different to school. Park friends were more likely to stick than school friends. And so I still know Greg Mack and Tom now. Greg died last year. Oh, wow. But they're still in touch with me and we still write to each other and stuff. So they were the ones who encouraged me to be funny.

13:08and interestingly the audience audience where I used to get up and be funny were predominantly white I was probably one of three black people in that entire room and so I got used to working to an all white audience for ages and ages and ages and when I alternative comedy came along and just after that people said oh well there's black clubs you know I had no idea and then I got booked to do a gig with just black people

13:32Mo Gilligan: yeah what year is this roughly because you started when you was like 16 roughly in the 70s Near the end of the 70s, I got invited to it. It was a dance. Yeah, a dinner and dance. Dinner and dance. Respectable, big people food. I've done one of those back in the city. Food and rice. And then Lenny Emery tonight. And then I walk on and they all got up and they walked towards me. All these black people walked towards me to the stage and stood right up against my face like here like this. And I was like, I don't know what to say. I was really scared because I was so used to people sitting like this to watch the show.

14:10I'd never had a whole audience get up and walk towards a stage like this far away from me and look at me like this. Wanted to see the kid off the TV. And I said, you're freaking me out. You're going to have to sit down. And they went and sat down. And then I did my show. And it was different because at that time, I hadn't worked out that my authentic self would be all right for this audience. I was still doing, hello, Betty, and I was still doing impressions and characters and telling jokes like people I'd seen on the telly. But actually, me, myself, and I, I could have just talked about my mum for an hour and been funny to those people.

14:48But I didn't do that. I just did the act that I was doing because that's what I knew what to do. And so it wasn't until really, it took about 12 years really to get into a place where I was able to talk to any audience. so when I did Live at Unleashed in 1988 I walked on and um I'd done nine nights in Birmingham at the Hippodrome it was fantastic thank god so I'd done nine work in progress but packed out and my audience and they loved it and London's different man London audience is like yeah go on then and I'm like okay uh so I did the first night and that was tough and I got lots of notes and stuff and then went on second night and then the night we started filming there was a black with her husband and she started talking to me as i said you can't i said i'm making a film literally just they've just turned over i'm making a film you can't just chat to me like but actually you can she was right and i was wrong yeah she was asking me about are you excited what's it like oh my god can't wait to see you're gonna do delbert you're gonna do dicas she won't To me, now that would be in the show.

15:58Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the time I was very uptight about it. Love that in the Empire. It's one of the few places I've been where you hear Tupperware opening as you come on stage. I'm literally... People are in you. What are they? Is that chicken? People are eating chicken and rice. Why Lenny? You're funny, is he? I've had that. Great. Did you ever feel that when you first started doing stand-up comedy, when you was doing the impressions because you started doing them at like 16 is a new faces show i started doing impressions when i was 12 13 oh okay so i was like you i was like but not like you because all i was doing is watching television and copying whatever i saw yeah and i would write down any joke i heard i would write it down i had exercise books full of somebody style them actually exercises of jokes that i'd seen on the telly or that i'd heard and i could i tried to memorize them and then um but i didn't what i didn't realize is there was this other thing i was doing i didn't pay any attention to it but i was improvising all the time if something happened or somebody had a weird haircut or tattoos or was wearing a shirt that was way too open you know i would say something it would be funny much funnier than the jokes actually yeah yeah yeah because this guy was that was me i was only 16 but if if if i knocked the table over or if i tripped over and fell or if a woman had a weird laugh i'll be on it immediately and i learned eventually that that guy who can just chat and say stupid stuff and talk to people that's who i am yeah yeah so it's it's you can't just reduce it to crowd work lots of comedians talk about crowd work now but it wasn't just that it was a comedic brain working at a time when i'd been told oh you've got to get your act together you've got to have an act yes yeah yeah so in my early years the first five or six years was just me trying to figure out what that was.

17:48Not realising that actually that bit when you talk to the old white guy with the hair and you compared him to something and then you made a joke about his wife doing something else, not taking the mic, but just chatting, that's you. So you need to encourage that. This other stuff will always be there. But the thing you've got that's natural with the audience, that's gold dust.

18:08Mo Gilligan: Yeah. How long did it take you until you started doing stand-up and you started realising what you were doing? Because it's really interesting for you to say, like when you start to realize what improvisation was i only realized it when i was in secondary school and i was doing drama and i do you know a funny thing and you know we'd be like we want you to devise a play and you're in a scene and go and we would just come up with something and everyone would be a character and i remember my teacher was like yeah this is this is improvisation and i was like, oh, okay. You went to a good school. Yeah, but big up to my drama teacher.

18:45Mo Gilligan: My drama teacher, Miss Simpson, she was so many, when I think of some of the people, like Ashley Waters, for example, he went to my school. Everyone puts her in such high regard because she was the one teacher that wasn't, yes, she was teaching you, but she was almost like, I don't know, it's one of those teachers that was just telling everyone, you know, you're really good at this and you're doing this. and yeah you should just go and do that rather than hey you've got this gift and you're wasting your time do you know what i mean um but that's when i realized what improvisation was and then i think once i studied it and i started looking into you know performing arts as a as a real creative like you know something i could learn i was like oh this is what this is this is what that is and then as i started to do stand up i started realizing what a callback is or what crowd work was the craft of a punchline when was that for you well um because i was watching all these comedians on television um i was getting an idea of you know i'd watch people like this is going to be old tom o 'connor would come on television on wednesday at eight and he would open the show and it would always be like a six minute monologue oh yeah and there was like an overall there was an overall arc when men go out to the club and um tom o 'connor had antecedents and a guy called Al Reed.

20:05He would do these narrative stories where he played all the characters.

20:09Mo Gilligan: And I was very interested in that. I'd never seen people do that before. So I'd go on and go, oh, you're doing a story. This is a long story. And there's laughs along the way. But you're not stopping and going, a guy went into a bar. You're the guy walking into the bar. And they're not really jokes, but they're funny because you're creating dialogue with all the characters. So I was sussing at that at the age of 14. Oh, wow. And then there was a guy called Dave Allen. He used to sit exactly the way you're sitting. and he would tell jokes but he would also do he'd have these think pieces where he would talk about what he thought about religion about church about Ireland about living in and so you're oh this is lived experience so you know this is all good so I was obviously I've been told by various people you need to be a sponge at this stage because you're it's not that you're not very good it's just that you're all over the place yeah you're trying to do lots of different things and in a minute you're going to figure out what it is you actually want to do and i remember um i got to i got as far as three of a kind so i said 81 81 was on tis was and i was still doing the same act that i've started doing with a little bit of e-fragmurge i was still doing all that and paul jackson who produced and directed three of a kind said you need a bit of help with your act why don't you go and sit with kim for a bit so kim fuller who's this thank god for kim he used to write on the nine o 'clock news and you wrote for jasper carrow he came to see me i was doing a week in luton kim came down for the whole week and we would have lunch and chat and we'd talk all every day and the characters that i was doing on three of a kind were delbert deacus theophilus p wildebeest the preacher um and with those four characters kim said well why don't you say hello and then why don't you do delbert and then why don't you do some more stuff and then why don't you do deacus then why don't you do more stuff and do the preacher and then why don't you do more stuff and then finish with Theo.

21:59And, you know, that was the template for my show for ages because it really worked. You know, it really, really worked. And then when I came to do Love and Unleashed, I'd made an album for Ireland just before, and we'd done bad jokes, which is funk jokes, because I used to go clubbing all the time. I loved clubbing. That's where all the Delbert stuff came from. And I said, I'm going to do funk jokes, funky jokes. I'm going to try and sing it, do a melody, but have the punchlines. yeah and so suddenly me and kim did that and it just became a thing and i and he was my guy for a very long i mean i still love him very much but we we didn't we stopped working with each other but for a good 12 years him and me just used to go what we're gonna do next yeah and we go and watch we got to new york and we watched comedians not to nick stuff but just to watch what they were mario joyner and charles barclay and um all the black comics we'd watch what they were doing and why you know we saw seinfeld a lot and we saw all these people and there was just a different vibe in America and you realize it in America it's an art form it's a kind of stand up is kind of like a proper art form and craft and there's a thing to learn about it and it's very much about who you are and we were talking earlier about if you watch anybody on Johnny Carson early doors they come on stage and their set is nearly always the same unless they're a character comedian they come on they say my name is I'm from Pittsburgh and then they joke about Pittsburgh and then they go, my mom and dad, and then they do stuff, my dad, my sister, and then they finish with something that happened at school or college, and then that's the end.

23:34So they've basically given you their CV. So the first set is a CV. And if you get invited back on Johnny, it might be about now. So a bit like the show, it might be about what you're doing now. I was doing a clubbing, so it's about where you've been, what you've been doing. I was making a movie, I did a sitcom, and I was working with this guy, and it's just your act is about what you're doing. And then later on, your act is about who you are.

23:54Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So it's like a weird full circle, but the who you are in the present isn't who you were when you first started. Now I'm talking about, I'm sorry to jump ahead, but I'm talking about being a dad. I'm talking about having a partner for the last 15 years when my previous partner was famous. I'm talking about living not where I used to live. I'm talking about the stuff I do now, the books I read, the movies I watch, the television I love. if I'm talking about being one of three black people where I live, it's very, it's funny. It's just funny because it's observation. And it's why it's the authentic version of me that is very different to what I was doing.

24:35And I love that.

24:36Mo Gilligan: I love it. Cause you had your show as well. The Lenny Henry show. Lenny Henry. Big show, man. Yeah. That show. I remember, I remember cause I, I think I grew up with you on my television as you was always on my TV But when I seen the show, I think I was like, oh, like I know Lenny's a standup comic, but he has a show with characters. Which show are you talking about? You're talking about the show. When were you born, if you don't mind me asking? I'm 88. You're born in 88? Yeah. So by that time, I'd done the Lenny Henry show twice. I'd done Lenny Henry Tonight and I did Delbert for two years. So in 88, I was on the second round of Delbert.

25:20and then I did a South Bank show and then I made True Identity and then I came back in 99 and I thought I've got to start all over again because that didn't work. And then I did Chef and then in the 90s I did another variety show which was late at night on a Saturday night and that's when I did Theophilus B Wilder Beast and all that kind of stuff. And I was doing stand-up. I was doing very, interestingly, end of the 90s, I was doing very race-based stand-up and I didn't realise I was doing it. Until I pressed the thing where you go, how many times have I said black in this set?

25:55Mo Gilligan: It was like 3 ,085. I'm very concerned with being black. And I had white friends who go, Lenny, you do know you're black, don't you? You do know that we know you're black. You don't have to keep telling us. Because I was doing lots of stuff about black people do this because I was inspired by Richard Pryor. And I thought, yeah, maybe I need to think about that. So at the end of the 90s, I stopped doing Chef. and then my mum died in 1998. And I've been doing more drama than comedy. I was still doing sets, but I was... And then Clive Tullow from Tiger came to my house and he produced a couple of documentaries with me.

26:35And he said, what do you want to do? And I said, I think I want to make people laugh again. Because my mum had just died. I was really down. So I said, well, let's do a sketch show again. And I'd said, I don't know whether it was right or wrong, but that I wouldn't do a sketch show again. Because I'm like, you know, 45, 50 or something. I don't want to do a sketch show. It's hard work. You've got to roll the characters, got to sing, got to dance. It's hard. I know why Dave Chappelle quit that. That's hard work, doing a sketch show. So it's like, I'm going to do six episodes, and it's going to take six months.

27:14and the and

27:16Mo Gilligan: prospects makeup it's just everything so um i went yeah because you slightly remember you forget all that you just remember that it was that you had a good time doing it so i said let's do lenny henry in pieces and we won the golden rose on montreal and i and then suddenly i'm enjoying my work again and it was a beautiful thing actually two years of in pieces then they BBC said oh can it be more like the Lenny Henry show of old yeah and we went instead of going no it's gonna be I went yeah alright yeah and then I carried on doing that when you had your show what did it feel like being like I was the only black guy in my own show yeah that's it was me and Shove McDonald what was that like though it was was it a realisation of like I'm representing a whole community well it was weird because and I'm breaking down barriers in the door and I want to represent myself and who I am.

28:12Mo Gilligan: And the reason why I asked, because when I had my show, you know, I was lucky enough to do a show with Big Nasty before I got my own show. That is the craziest show I've ever been on in my whole life. I only did it once, I'm telling you now. It was the weirdest, craziest, most bizarre show I've ever been on. He fell asleep in the middle of the show. He had a nap while the cameras were running. Then he woke up and started speaking in Liverpudlian. He did a scouse voice for a really long time in the show and it was so funny i i was literally not understanding and then there was a man in the shop and you were doing another show it was like you were doing another show i was like what's where has it gone now and you were doing a competition with the audience and he was and nasty was asleep i was just oh god it was funny but was that good fun to do that show do you know what was it stressful no it was everything you had to wrangle it yeah because it was it was stressful in the sense of you spend maybe a week you've got this segment you've got that and once the cameras go on nasty's like i ain't talking about that listen we're gonna act out shakespeare you get a guest like for yourself he's like let's do shakespeare come boom and i'm like bro we got a whole we got a whole different bit we gotta do but then there was almost a beauty there was almost a beauty in for me it was a crash course in tv because i'd never done any tv before so being able to do the first ever thing that on that you know mainstream tv at 11 that just felt like it was proper like channel four in the sense of channel four had come up through the shows that were unconventional did not what's going on so for me to be on tv all these cameras and everyone i was like well like i guess we just have to make this thing you gotta a role with it yeah but then i think the minute i then got my own show it was like oh i've done that show now i need to separate in terms of that show had an identity and theme and people liked that about it and i was like well i have an idea for what i want my show to be because your show seems to be more disciplined yeah but i also like i was really inspired by a lot of the american shows as well so a lot of like carlson and letterman fallon um all of those shows where i was like oh it's like big shiny floor and the reason why i was inspired by those shows because they went big they would have a band someone would come out they'd have a guest and i was like i want to be a black man who has a show like that for us do you know yes yeah yeah yeah i watched loads of that show that was a segmented segmented show yes yeah exactly what you're talking about and and he wants to represent black culture and white culture too but he mainly wanted to say I support hip hop I support black actors Actresses and directors And I think that's I don't know if we're going to have it anymore But I think that was a thing That made me go Yeah I want to do a show like that I mean I didn't do it And it's a lot of work I think the word You just said I watched a lot of Whatever it is you said a minute ago That's what you've got to do You can't sleep on it You've got to actually do the homework What was it like though For you having your own show Great I loved it There was a lot of pressure And there were I didn't see it but there was somebody showed me when we're doing three of a kind, somebody wrote a really nasty letter to us.

31:39And the direct, the producers thought he better show it to me because there was a threat in it against me. And for the first time I thought, Oh, some people feel a way about me being in the show. I better watch myself. But when I got my show, I was so, I was joyous because Kim was there and I had all these writers, all lovely Oxbridge people who I could talk to. I had a lot of energy. I was also, they called me a producer. But what I would do is I'd come into the room like this and I'd just kind of go and explode and have lots of energy. And then I'd leave. And they would go, I think he wants to do Hill Street Blues.

32:21I think he wants to do The Soul Singer. I think he wants to do, and then I'd come back and I had a choice of the material I could do. They would write it and I would either scripted it or I would help or I would say, well, I want to do this, but can it be like this? I had a say in the room. So for the first time, and of course you do it different now, but I had a wonderful writing team and they wrote to me. They didn't just write and then dash it at me and say, you're doing this because I've done shows like that. These guys were respecting me and saying, we like that idea about such and such. Can you do that?

32:55You know, there's a black member of the royal family they don't talk about, and you should be him. That's a funny idea, but he never went on the air. I saw The Shining, and I wanted to be a kid with psychokinetic weird powers, and we did that. We never went on the show. But they respected everything I came to the table with, and we would try all of them. But the thing I noticed that worked every time with the characters, any time I looked at the camera

33:20Mo Gilligan: and went, good evening, that something happened with people around the country. Oh, I love that old bloke. And then Delbert, same, you know, Delbert was, you know, looking at the camera, talking to the audience, telling him what was going on in Brixton that week. They connected the characters. Sketches were up and down, but the characters were like solid every week. And it made me think, oh, after two years of that, maybe Delbert should have his own show. And then we did a Delbert sitcom and it was fantastic. It was really, it was huge. And, but there was a big responsibility. And in Delbert, the responsibility was to represent those kids who were doing pirate radio and going clubbing and being harassed by the police brixton rights had just happened um and it was just i want to do a character that can say all that and talk back to the police and because i had mates who talk back to the police and um and be funny yeah i didn't want it to be depressing i want it to be joyful i wanted there to be music in the show i wanted him to be a dandy so where you know i wore an an Anthony Price suit when I did the first Delbert monologue and Kim said it cost more than what he got paid for the entire series.

34:26I didn't know. But I said oh he would wear this suit. And suddenly the costume, oh darling well I know where to get that. So it was a vibe. And we got nominated for a BAFTA for a series which is great. Never got it but it was, I think Victoria Wood got it. Judy Dench got it. But I was like okay. I really like it. I better keep going with this.

34:48Mo Gilligan: What was it about going to the BAFTAs at that time? great i mean i was 20 something or other 23 or something and we've been nominated for a bafta and judy dench and victoria wood and all these people are there and they read your name out and you come up on the baftas and it's you know it's very very exciting and of course you're a bit sad when you don't win but my god you're at the baftas and everybody's there all your peers are there yeah and they've and the people you don't meet the judges but they there's a real thing of well done you did well you know to be narrowed down to the last four is very very good indeed did you feel like a voice of a generation at that time of having your show when you've got things going on outside of um you know what you're doing like you're saying like you know police beating up people but also feeling like you know if you go on a television show being the only black face they're like well let's ask Lenny does that make sense yeah there was a pressure I think there was a there was a pressure on um I don't know if you have this but because I was doing all these characters there was an expectation that i could do any character any voice yeah and so there was a generic hello i am there was a generic african voice there was a my family are jamaican but there were like four types of jamaican voice i was doing those i was doing street voice i was doing midlands voice i was trying to american but i was doing all kinds of voices so it was almost like because i was the only show i was having to do everybody yeah and it was respected nobody said that's not how we talk except for Christopher Asante.

36:16He literally took me to one side at London Weekend Television and said, you know, you're from Zimbabwe, right, when you play that character. You know Zimbabweans don't talk like that. And you need to go and do some research. Because I was just making it up in my head. I've seen people talk like this on the television. I was just doing that. But it made me really want to be respected for that and be respected for voices. And I remember when I was doing comedy of her as, um this wonderful guy called Femi um did the voice work with me and it was I was close but he just made me just do that tweak it you can do all the tweaking if you're prepared to do the homework yeah and I became about the homework then as an actor but yes you're right I think um you're on television and you've got your own show and people make an assumption that you want to be on Amnesty International or Comic Relief or you want to say something about the violence and the thing.

37:12And often I go, well, no, because I'm not, you know, you need to go and talk to a politician about that. I'm a comedian. I'm an actor. I'm not that. But actually sometimes you do want to say something because you want to show solidarity with somebody who's been getting racist emails from people and they're down and they put them on Instagram and you want to just say, I'm really so sorry, Solidarnosk, you know. It's important to show solidarity with people who are being crap done from a great height by people who don't understand what it's like to be black in the public eye yeah who have racist or bigoted uh opinions it's important for us to show our solidarity yeah but on the other hand i don't want to go and i don't ever want to go on question time or whatever it is can you imagine what would i say you know you'd be sitting there going oh god is

37:55Mo Gilligan: a moment where i can be funny here because it never is no you know there's serious questions being asked and you're there not representing properly at all and when people when comedians do go on there. I think they think, oh, you'll add a bit of levity. But all we're thinking is, oh God, that's a really good point. What can I say? All you're thinking is that. And the jokes slightly get parked. Yeah. Yeah. Because I, listen, I think if you're on those - Have you been asked to go on those shows? Nah, they ain't asking me to go on that. Definitely not. Me, who does, Cap McCairn, swing out the bloody car, Julie.

38:30Mo Gilligan: Definitely not. I wanted to ask you, what was the, because you had a real shift from that comedy to serious drama when you, you know, he's doing Othello. What was that decision based on? Because, you know, with someone who does any, I feel like anyone who can do characters impressions is a really good actor. So when you started doing Shakespeare, what was that shift? Because I've always shied away from Shakespeare, mainly because I've always struggled with, like, I'm dyslexic. So Shakespeare, like, I just about know English. So then for me to change it to Shakespeare was always, especially when it came to acting, felt like, oh, this.

39:08Mo Gilligan: And I think that's also a big part of why I never went to drama school because you have to do your classic and you've got to do your modern. And I was like, I struggle with Shakespeare. Weren't there tutors who could help you through the dyslexia stuff? There was, but I think I was always, I can do this by myself, especially when it came to acting, comedy. It only took me until probably 2021 until I asked for help of writing, like stand-up. And even that is with a close friend. And when I think of writing, it's more, I still write it. I ask for what he thinks. And then he kind of helps me edit it and takes it out or say, oh, this is really good.

39:50Mo Gilligan: Or you should really expand on that. But I've always been quite a, when it comes to asking for help, especially with any of my creativity stuff. I'm always like, I can kind of do this. Well, look at what you did. I think when I fanboyed you, I said, you do it all yourself. You write it, you speak it, you act it, you do everything, you edit it. That was on Twitter. I think you reached out to me. I think that was the first time. I was such a fan. Oh, thanks, man. Because, you know, and the fact that I didn't really know you were dyslexic. Yeah, yeah. yeah it's it's in my family too and it's really interesting to overcome that and to get where you get to because look at you look at you it's it's a brilliant thing i nobody taught me how to write and and here's the i didn't know that when i went into that room with those guys and i was doing characters and voices and pitching scenarios that's writing that's being that's producing yeah someone told me that once i started doing television nobody told me that yeah when i think before then I didn't know that so someone just think you're goofing around yeah yeah I swear to you someone someone had said to me like oh you know when you're doing these characters and you're coming up with these ideas for videos how do you do it and I was like well I'll get my phone record it and just yeah and my thing then was like I need to record it and I'd have to do it in a minute so whatever scenario I'd already pre-made and again I'm not talking to anyone and I'd fill in the voices afterwards but I remember someone in television was like yeah you're writing.

41:22Mo Gilligan: And I was like, oh. That's what it is, yeah. Because I thought you had to get a typewriter. Even if you're, but I mean, if you think about the best time you've ever had with your mates down the pub, and they're like, beef, boff, beef, boff, that's writing. Yeah. And what you're going to, what you're trying to do in a television room with your mates is replicate that vibe when you're at a party. And my brother Paul can make people laugh at a funeral. Yeah. So when Paul's being funny about people's clothes and their hair and how they're behaving been in church and stuff and people are roaring with laughter he's writing and i didn't realize that so and you can be very on the back foot in television because the writers you're working with have all been to uni they're used to handing in essays on time yeah yeah they're used to having a point of view or a take on a subject matter and you're sitting there feeling a bit kind of nobody's ever asked me what my take on anything is i don't listen to the today program i know what's happening outside i don't know what's happening on the news and then you suddenly start going well maybe i should maybe i'll watch the news maybe i'll listen to the today program but you still bring who you are to that material yeah you're not suddenly become i'm all rajan just because you watch you're going to be you yeah and so the most important thing you said earlier on about authenticity is be your authentic self but bring it to the room because if you don't understand the reference you just go what's that i don't understand that and then you carry on you know it's about being who you are not being who somebody wants you to been it took me ages to figure that out you know when you when you made this the switch to the stage and you was acting what was that like because was there a a feeling of like but yeah we know you as a comedian do you know what i mean was it was it almost like was there a pressure for you to be like take me serious because i can do this or was it like a i'm going to show you a totally different side to what you've ever seen i don't think it was ever that ever conscious but i did know that lots of things coincide with my mum passing over the period after my mum died I'd been in stand-up for a really long time and I'd toured a lot and I was tired I'd done a lot of TV shows and I was doing more drama I did Hope and Glory for a bit which is a school drama and I was enjoying being a head teacher and that's why I did all my further education and I just wanted to do something different and I did a show called Cradle to Grave which is about how much I love music It kind of went on over the country and had a band with me and everything.

43:43It was all right. It could have been better. I just thought, God, okay, now what? And then I started to go, what else is there? And Radio 4 offered me a factual documentary series called What's So Great About? And it was me doing a kind of radio show slash podcast about the things I love and the things I don't understand. So the first one was William Shakespeare. Because like Richard Pryor, I thought all Shakespeare was white people with the cabbage down their front going,

44:12Mo Gilligan: how feely they thought they fiddeth. Thank myself I'm fiddethful. You know, it was just very much a middle class thing. And I just didn't get it. And so I started to explore what it was I didn't get. And I talked to Adrian Lester, Pat St. Joseph, Sir Peter Hall, Trevor Nunn, Judi Dench. I talked to all these people and they all said, until you've learnt it and got it in your mouth and learnt what the words mean, you're never going to get it. And so Barry Rutter from Northern Broadside Theatre Company in Halifax, came down to London to do a thing in a room like this, where he taught me the last speech of Othello, which is soft you a word or two before you go.

44:49I have done the state some service and they note, no more of that. I pray you in your letters when you shall these unlucky deeds relate. Speak of me as I am, nothing extenuate, nor set down ought in malice. It was that. So he taught me that for the whole day. And at the end of the day, do you know what? the tingle I'd lost temporarily doing stand-up, suddenly that was back. I said, do you think I can do this? He said, yeah, I think you can do it. I think you can do this. And then he took a while to get me, to offer me something. But then he offered me a fellow at the West Yorkshire Playhouse and I did it.

45:23And I was really frightened. I was very, very frightened. Because, yes, you're right. Here's my lane. And suddenly I was changing lanes.

45:31Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And there was a lot of people who came up on the first night, on the press night. waiting for the car crash. Yeah. What's this going to be like? Oh, really? Katanga, my friends. He's going to be, Othello, what's that going to be like? So they weren't expecting it to, because I would just assume. There was a lot of people not expecting it to be any good at all. I just thought people might think it was more funny. Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like. Well, it's one of the greatest tragedies ever written. But I feel because it's you, I just feel like people might be like, you might give it a comedy twist.

45:58Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? There's no comedy twist in Othello. You have to put that to one side. wall down and stuff as they're speaking to the audience. Do you know what I mean? But I knew I wanted to respect it. And when you're working in rehearsals with all those other people, pardon me, you realise, oh, this is, they have a laugh off stage, make a cup of tea and there's banter. When they're on stage, it's like, as soon as there's a heart attack. And I thought, I'm the only black person in the company. Yeah. And they're all looking to me like, yeah, what are you going to do? and I go and I just listen to people and the guy who played Iago, Conrad Nelson was brilliant with me because usually when you do Othello there's a thing with the guy who plays the bad guy, Iago you have quite a lot of scenes together and there's a bit of rivalry there but Conrad didn't really do that he just said we're going to get through this and we're going to do it together and I'm going to have your back, don't worry about it so he was still a bastard but he was actually, as an actor, my colleague and he made it easy for me to be Othello.

47:04And it was a, I was really focused just on doing the play. And then suddenly the reviews came out and the reviews were very positive. And they were all really happy for me, but I never read the reviews because I didn't want to get up myself and I didn't want to get into a thing of,

47:20Mo Gilligan: I've had great reviews, I'm a Shakespearean actor now. I didn't want to do that. And then the only time when there was a crossover with being a stand-up comedian and being in a play was I was doing um I'll do this quickly I was doing comedy of errors at the National Theatre and um I'm playing one of the Antiphiluses and Bernie Christie's made this set where everything moves there's a building there's a town square it's all on computerized yeah and I'm waiting to go on to be with this woman who thinks I'm her husband but I'm a twin I'm not her husband but she's inviting me to her place So what normally happens is, as I walk on, her block of flats comes like this, and we walk into the flat, and then we go up in the lift, and then there's a scene up in the lift in her apartment, whatever.

48:08So I walk on stage, and there's no, and we're waiting, and nothing happens. And in my mind was, oh, the set isn't working. I'm going to have to do a mini set. What am I going to do? Maybe I could do that thing about my mum.

48:25Mo Gilligan: I could do that thing about, I could maybe take the piss out of the set not working, but then maybe I should do this. Oh, I've got that bit about that. And as I got to, just about to open my mouth to go, sorry about this, ladies and gentlemen, and then start doing some jokes, a hand was on my shoulder and said, and this woman said, ladies and gentlemen, I'm very sorry, there's been a malfunction with the set. Our actors will leave the stage and we'll be back with you as soon as they're fixed. And she escorted me off the stage. And I went, I'm an actor. Oh, that also felt nice. I don't have to.

48:53Because there's a comic.

48:53Mo Gilligan: I don't have to feel while something happens. Because there's a comment you have to feel the silence. And especially I feel like with you being there, you'd get an audience that are like, come on, give us some, give us some material. But also I feel like as yourself, you're so used to being like, oh, I can, I can make a joke. Well, yeah, crowd work. I mean, you know, oh God, the set isn't working. I better do some crowd work while they get sorted out. Ladies and gentlemen, I thought, oh, this is, I'm at the National Theatre now. I don't have to do shit. I'm going to leave the stage. We're off stage for about 10 minutes.

49:23Then we came back on and just carried on with the scene. And it was beautiful. And there was one time when I was doing Fences and I was playing Troy Maxson and walked on stage with me and Colin McFarlane doing our Pittsburgh accents. And it was a geezer watching the football on his phone. He'd left his phone on.

49:41And I had to stop the show. Very, you know, like three minutes into the show. And I've been talking like this. And then I went, excuse me, can you turn your phone off, please? I'm really sorry. You can maybe watch the rematch, maybe watch Match of the Day later on, but don't. This is a play. We're doing a play. Audience love it. And we walked off and we started the play again. So it's like you're in a live situation. You are doing a show, but you're in a play. And usually the audience respect the play. When they don't, they're talking. Or if their phone goes, I think you're allowed. I've seen various people do it.

50:14Hugh Chapman did it on Broadway. Richard Griffith used to do it. You stop the show and you say, please respect the show. It's a thing you can do.

50:23Mo Gilligan: Speaking of the stage, you're back on tour. Woo-hoo! Is it after 16 years ago? I haven't done a set for 15 years. How are you feeling of going back on tour? Well, you know, Griff Rees-Jones is going to be really happy because for the last 10 years, every single year, Griff Rees-Jones says, I'm doing this show in Ipswich and I want you to come and do a 10-minute spot. And I go, I haven't got, what do you mean a 10-minute spot? What am I going to do? I literally have not done a set or assembled a set for 15 years because I was done with that. I wasn't going to do that anymore. Maybe in the future I would come back and do it, like Seinfeld maybe.

50:59But right now I thought, no, I'm just going to do acting and I'm going to get on with that. So the last two shows on stage that I've done were August in England and then Every Brilliant Thing that Daniel Radcliffe is being so brilliant in in New York. And they're one-person shows. And what I noticed and what all my friends noticed was, I was really enjoying the interaction with the audience. You know, when I did August in England, which is about the Windrush candle, there were quite a lot of black people in the audience and black people join in. They start talking to you. Yes, that happened to me when I was 16 as well.

51:37They're talking to you. And when I was doing every brilliant thing, black people came to that and they would start talking. Yes, Lenny. No, I'm not Lenny in the show. I'm just playing a character who's doing the show for, this isn't Lenny. This isn't Lenny. but I noticed the audience wanted to join in. I thought, I've got to do a set now. Yeah, yeah. Because I've had two years of doing a one-person show

51:58Mo Gilligan: where they want to talk to Lenny behind the character. So I just thought, let's start. And so that was about two years ago. So we started to just sit in a room like this with Max, who I work with, and just start to go, well, what's funny? What's funny about now? And that's been the difficult thing because part one is me doing a set, which is 45 minutes, 50 minutes, and part two is question and answer like this. so that's great but putting a set a credible set where you come on and say folks great to be here take my wife please you know that's difficult because you're you're going this is what i used to do yeah i want it to be as good as when i did it before if not better and it's hard because there's a lot of comedians out there now and there's a lot of black comedians they've got a lot to compare me to now yeah whereas they didn't before and um touch wood what's been lovely is they've they're digging it so hooray long may it continue i'm loving being on stage i'm loving that the audience are there are some young people there but there's a lot of people that are my age with their wives uh there's some kids some millennials and um i'm just trying to be my authentic self and talk about things that make me laugh and things that i've noticed in the last few years talk about my new partner talk about that stuff that I care about it's stand up the thing that really keeps you up at night because for me anyway it does in a sense of um you know when I have to write a new tour or you know the day before I'm going to do a new tour show I'm sitting there and I'm like oh that bit does that work does that not work you know when I leave a show especially on this tour I'm on at the moment I I drive myself to and from my shows basically yeah yeah yeah I just Jump in the car there.

53:42Mo Gilligan: I kind of like this having like maybe two hours to just be by myself. It gives me like a nice moment of like, I've got two hours. I can just even listen to a podcast. A lot of time I drive with just nothing on, no music on or anything. But I really like just the piece before the noise. It's the one thing that - When you get to the theatre, is it really noisy or something? No, I think it's like once I'm on stage, I know I have to switch that on. And I have to work with whatever's going on. And I've noticed my shows on the weekend are almost, it goes up by another 10, 20 % because people are, you know, they've got babysitters now, so they want to get a drink.

54:22Mo Gilligan: They want to hear some music. They want to hear some music to see your show. Yeah, especially I think now because. They've left the house. But I've also got that sweet spot of an audience who, you know, they work Monday to Friday and this is, I've got you on your weekend. You know, sometimes with the shows maybe on the Thursday and Friday, but the weekend shows they're like we're going to see Mo we've got our tickets we've had a meal it's going to be great you know girlfriend's got her hair done I've got the car cleaned yes we've even got a hotel do you know what I mean put on clothes yeah it's like yeah but you know like I know that that's my I think before when I first started touring it was quite a younger audience who were like we don't know what we're paying for but we're here for it so I know I have to deliver that so I think having that piece before I start is like ah but then once I'm on it's noise it's I've got to be sharp sometimes you know there might be an argument in the show like that's just an audience member who got there late and someone's in their seats that's I know my audience so I'm like that will probably happen it's quite normal so once it's happening and I'm in the you know in the groove you can be in the mix yeah I might be telling the story and I've got everyone's attention but something going on there if I don't address it it will just get louder do you know what I mean you have to help yeah yeah yeah definitely massively but it is the thing that keeps me up at night.

55:42Mo Gilligan: Stand up is the one thing that's like. I think you're right. And once your set's in you, do you do this? Do you run it in the night sometimes? Do you wake up in the night or do you not wake up? Do you just, do you run the set in your dreams or something? No, I leave it on stage. Do you? Yeah. Once I, when I drive home, I do think of like, oh, I like that bit. I didn't like that bit. But I do leave it on the stage in the sense of I have to have a reset once I go to bed I'm sleeping sometimes four o 'clock in the morning I'm working folks great to be here goodnight I just start doing it start doing it my missus is like what are you doing I'm just running the show why are you running lines in bed just because there was that little bit there's that bit where I slightly so you're like sleep talking you're is it yeah but it's good it works yeah sometimes when I'm in the car or on the train I'll just close my eyes and I'll run the whole show Like that.

56:37And then I get to the venue and I cup of tea and sit down, you know, watch a podcast or watch telly and just, and then turn that off and then get ready. And then the lead up to the show is mainly quiet. Don't really like people coming.

56:50Mo Gilligan: I don't like people coming in the dressing room before the show, but there's quite a lot of people who think it's all right to just barge in your room. Yeah. Into your church. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, I can't believe. Yeah. So we're going to, what? Yeah. And I've got a promoter. So there's a really, I mean, they're my friends, but listen, they will be in the dressing room till one minute before showtime. And you have to go, you have to get out now. I'm just, I need like three minutes to, just to be by yourself. Show goes up five minutes late because I'm going, I need to reset. I need to think, I need to have calm.

57:21And then you, then you're on.

57:23Mo Gilligan: See, I'm the opposite. Because I, weirdly, I do like, I like my close friends. To be around you. Yeah. So, but that's, but it's always, it's always a natural. I never say guys come in, but if they're in the room before I'm going to start, we're, you know, we're having a joke, we're talking like some people having a drink and stuff. And I think I like that atmosphere a lot because when I normally go out the first 10 minutes, I'm going to do crowd work anyway. Yeah. So it makes me feel like I've gone from there with my friends. So by the time I get on stage, it doesn't feel so, oh God, everyone's here.

57:58It's like you've been fluffed.

57:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah, it's almost like, oh, but let's carry on where we left off. But with someone. That's a good thing. But then I definitely, before I jump out behind the curtain, I do need like three, four minutes just to like pray, go through set, warm up, get vocals ready, and then jump out. That's like religious about that. That sounds right. Well done. If I'm about to go out, but you know, like behind the curtain and someone's there, the worst one you could do to me is that hey oh no don't don't please don't talk to me i'm just about to go out there hey good luck man good luck don't oh listen um they're a bit worried about upstairs because what are you talking to me now for what yeah leave me leave you alone please please if you hear if you hear an insistent car alarm going on i'll be all right i'll be all Lenny man I'm going to wrap this up Because I know you're a very very busy man But you see like For where you are in your life now Of going on tour You know And the things that you've done You know The work you've done with like Comet Relief Raising over Is it like There's like a billion almost It's more than a billion Nearly two billion yeah Yeah And like You know you're a sir You know you're Sir Lenny Do you know what I mean Like You're not Lenny Henry You're Sir Lenny What do you start to look at You know Things like When the conversation Of legacy comes in You know Because for myself You know Like You are one of my My comedy inspirations Do you know what I mean Very nice for you So like even to sit here In the room Is like a big privilege And just hearing your stories But also You know Being someone That has definitely benefited Of you know Having my own show You know You're someone who You know Set that that president before anyone had ever seen it.

59:55Mo Gilligan: And hearing the fact that you've had to have the same, you know, you've got pressures and, you know, whether it's threats or racism, but also the joys of knowing that there are people who are like getting insight to what the black experience is like. And you being in the forefront of mainstream TV, one for a lot of us was like, I know this person, even though I don't know them. And I think that's why when I got to meet you at the BAFTAs, I was like oh this person that you know is one of the reasons I do comedy is is he and knows who I am because there's you know there's there's so many people within our community but when we think of like front facing people on television it's only until I really started doing tv and I went to a BAFTAs and it's great to be there but then you do have this like oh right where's everyone else like I thought because sometimes I think the perception can be oh yeah like when I get in there I see this person in there and you're like, oh, this, they're not there.

1:00:52Mo Gilligan: And what is it for you? Like in some ways where you start to look at, you know, your legacy, the people you've inspired, but also the things that you still want to conquer and do like for you, even saying today that like you being back on stage after, you know, 15, 16 years is like, yeah, like I care about this. Do you know what I mean? I think in terms of the craft of it, I want to, you know, I mean, I'll probably do another tour, maybe not next year, but the year after, but I want to go, things I've learned from this tour that I can now figure out what to do next. I mean, I was listening to Louis CK on a podcast with Mark Moran this morning talking about building a set and not feeling away about putting that set to one side and starting to get a completely new one just to see and being braver, going out on stage and just talking and seeing what works and what doesn't work in an improvisational way.

1:01:44So that might be something in the future. I think I want to do more acting. I did a film with George Clooney. I was only on it for a couple of days, but just watching him, the way he handled himself, the lead of the movie, working with Adam Sandler, working with Laura Dern, and just seeing how he just was with the material, with the director. I learned a great deal from that.

1:02:09Mo Gilligan: and it's really i worked with michael palin recently and what i want to do going forward if the legacy could be like comic relief and he made that thing about his mom three little birds you know to me that would be all right comic relief is extraordinary and it's what's great is i'm a life president but i'm not presenting anymore but it's carrying on young people are I go, yeah, I do comfort relief. And I think that's a really good thing, that people stay involved with it. And I got involved with it because post-live aid, the Ethiopia thing was still a thing. And I'm not from Africa, Ethiopia, but I grew up in Dudley.

1:02:53My parents are Jamaican. And I was always raised to sort of try and be of use, trying to if there was a fate or charity thing when i was coming up even when i was 16 17 18 i was encouraged to oh you should do that charity football match because they need the money so when comic relief came along i thought i'm going to do that because they need help and i want to help and now what's great is that there are people now who go well i'm going to do that

1:03:19Mo Gilligan: too you know i'm going to get involved yeah and i think that's a very very good thing so comic relief um three little birds i'm very proud of even though we only did one series but i was so proud that my mom and dad's story was on a screen where people in dildo would say we've watched it three times is it going to be any more yeah um so you allowed a lot of you know it's a generation to be seen as well where a lot of generations don't get seen you know that's what you gotta i mean the thing is i challenge you to you know you've talked about your family on stage you know that deserves to be a narration, a story, a cycle, a myth.

1:03:57We've got to create these myths because interestingly, Caribbean storytelling is different to other storytellings. You know, our storytelling is directly linked to our home country. So the way we tell stories isn't like Western European canon. You know, we tell stories in the bar or around the fire or, you know, at work or you know on long walk we have different ways of communicating our authentic selves and i think sometimes when you're in the industry you realize oh people that's not they're not buying into what i'm talking about because they're not used to hearing a story told like that yeah um and so i i feel like with my production company it's get maybe get people to understand that oh

1:04:43Mo Gilligan: there's other ways to tell a story, not just in a inciting incident, you know, break into part two, the story. You know, there's another way to do a story. You could start, you know, look at Christopher Nolan. You could start in the middle. You could start at the end. You can keep going back to the end and then coming back. You know, there's different ways to tell stories. So I like the idea of that. I love being on stage. I want to do more of that.

1:05:08And I don't want to stop really. I mean, people keep saying, you know, I had an account.

1:05:12Mo Gilligan: One day, Lenny, when you're 50, you're not going to want to do this anymore. And I kind of looked at him like, are you mad? Yeah. What is better than this? You know, we have the best job in the world. What is better than this? Go on stage and walk in, start chatting foolishness about you. It's great. Yeah. You get to pretend to be somebody else. And I remember my mum telling me, you know, what is that thing you're doing? I was going around the corner like, I was going around the corner like that. I said I'm being James Bond and she just looked at me like okay so I did characters all the time but I just didn't know that was what I was doing so you know it's all come to fruition now and on to the next do some good work work hard go home oh Lenny man it's been such a pleasure to have you on it's been an honour to be here thank you for letting me come and talk to you because I feel like whenever you know whenever we see each other it might be a passing an event or we never get a chance to talk properly Do you know what I mean And again You're someone that's Huge inspiration to myself But a whole Do you know what I mean Generation And Also big up man When he was at Buckingham Palace Like my mum was like Stop talking about Buckingham Palace Nah but my mum was so Made up Every weekend But the way you'd done it You made us feel so comfortable I was like I've never been here But seeing you You was like What's up mum You alright I was like Hello mum You alright Yeah yeah I was like Alright let's chill out man But no honestly thank you so much for doing this pod.

1:06:43Mo Gilligan: I think that the work you do is extraordinary, but you know, the legacy that you, you know, created and you still, you know, are doing is, yeah, it's, it's iconic, man. Do you know what I mean? It's different now. You'll find it gets different the older you get, the kinds of things you want to do or whatever, but it's all a challenge. You're on a train. It's like, you're moving all the way. You keep moving as the train's moving and it's up to you. If you want to jump off, but I say stay on and keep creating. and keep generating the stuff you love to do. And your audience is on the train with you.

1:07:17Mo Gilligan: And speaking of that train, this stop has just finished. So this, my friend, has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you so much, Sir Lenny Henry. Thank you very much. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes into making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better.

1:07:51Mo Gilligan: Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.