Ep 94 - Dawn French: From Strip Club Gigs to National Treasure

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0:57Mo Gilligan: and Jennifer Saunders together. Her early days in performing in a strip club and tackling dark subjects through humour in her brand new novel, Enough. You guys know who it is. Please, welcome to the podcast, Dawn French. How are you, Dawn? You alright, though? I'm okay. We were saying just a minute ago, the last time I seen you was at The Masked Singer. Yeah. Didn't you say that you was... Because I know you're a grandma. Because you mentioned your daughter. Yes. I know, yeah, I know my mum, obviously. But I remember you saying because didn't your daughter just have a little one? Yes, she did.

1:32Mo Gilligan: Well, how long ago was that now? Maybe two years? Well, that would have been maybe two years. Yeah. So the little one would have been two. Yes, I remember. And she's now four. Yes. Pushing five, pushing 50. Oh. She's got a lot of attitude. She's the boss. No doubt about it. Yeah. I didn't know he was from Wales, though. Me? Yeah. Well, am I? That's the thing. Am I? I was born there, definitely. But I was born there because my dad was in the REF. Yeah. So when you're in the REF, you have to move on and stuff. Yeah, you're moving all the time. So he happened to be stationed there when I was born.

2:08Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So it feels weird. I don't feel like I'm from there exactly. It's not like you were born there by default. Yeah, exactly. It was this location of work. Just location. But we were there for about four years, I think. And in fact, my brother, who is a couple of years older than me, was already at school there by the time I was born. And my brother was speaking Welsh. Is it? Yeah, because if you're there, we were in Anglesey, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's Welsh language taught and spoken. And he was a little sponge. And so he picked it all up. My mum's from Wales. Really? My mum's from Barrie, Caddicton.

2:44Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Oh, OK. Where they film Gavin and Stacey. Yeah, yeah. That's Ruth Jones' land. Yeah, so it's so funny because everyone's like, oh, you must go to Barrie all the time. And I'm like, yeah, as a kid, we weren't there. But I don't have the same thing of like the Gavin and Stacey because she's got family there. Yeah, exactly. Well, listen, I've got great affection for Wales. And believe me, if I've ever done, and I've done a couple of projects, of filming projects that need BBC Wales money in them, I absolutely own my birthright as Welsh then. Because if you qualify for that, you get the dosh.

3:21So I will own it. I'm a tart. I'll just own wherever. But really where I'm from is the West Country. And that is an issue, Mo. Yeah. Because half of my family are from Cornwall. Okay. And the other half are from Devon. Okay. So between Devon and Cornwall, there is the River Tamar. Yeah. and like every county that's next door to another county they are our enemies so these two are enemies unless there's football or something that we're united against everybody else further up north but it's very different so if I say I'm from Cornwall now that other part of my family are up in arms if I say I'm from Devon the Cornish lot are up in arms say that is it the west country well i well that's a bit big because that includes somerset

4:13Mo Gilligan: brighton and stuff no not brighton sorry brighton i mean bristol that's it bristol yeah you could even go as far as that yeah i what i say is i'm a tamar girl and in fact we don't even say girl we say maid maid is what he's called a girl down there so i'm a tamar maid which means that i'm from around that river yeah that that gets then i'm allowed to remain alive is that what gave you the inspiration of the Vicar of Dibley? No. It didn't? The Vicar of Dibley was Richard Curtis's idea. And Richard... But did it help you embody the character a bit more? What, being from there? Yeah. No, because nothing about the Vicar of Dibley is that part of the country at all.

4:53It's set in the countryside, but it's in Oxfordshire.

4:57Mo Gilligan: Ah, okay. And Richard wrote it with Paul Mayhew Archer. They co-wrote it. And he really wrote it because it was just on the cusp of women coming into the church at that level. And in fact, women hadn't been allowed to be ordained at that point. It wasn't even church law. But women were pushing for that. It feels like ages ago now, but it was kind of controversial at the time. And so, you know, no, that was all kind of Oxfordshire area, Turville, where we did most of the filming, the outdoor filming. has a great big windmill at the top of a hill on the outskirts of it. And that is where they filmed Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

5:42Really? Yes. Oh, wow. That whole area, that village was used for lots of filming in the sort of 60s and 70s.

5:50Mo Gilligan: I love that film, but I find it so scary at the same time. It is really scary. When the child catcher comes. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, oh, I don't like this bit, man. All the best films have scary things for children. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. You're supposed to be scared as a kid. What's the other one? The Yellow Brick Road. What's it called? Wizard of Oz. Wizard of Oz. Oh, that was so creepy, man. With the flying monkeys. Did somebody take a lot of drugs before they broke that film? Some of those films were so scary as a kid. Flying monkeys, I know. But I found that film so scary. But it's supposed to be.

6:21Mo Gilligan: It felt so real. Like the Cowardly Lion looks very creepy. Yeah. Because it looks like a person. Yeah, it does. It's not. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yellow Brick Road. But it's all about, you know, it would be all a metaphor, won't it? I don't even know what for, for finding goodness or finding your courage, your heart, you know, your brain. Yeah. When did you feel like you knew that, like, comedy is something that you really wanted to pursue? Because I know you met Jennifer in the 70s and stuff. I did. And you went to drama school? We did. Went to drama school? We did. Well, to be trained to be teachers.

6:57When did I know? I don't think I ever... Because was it acting first? Consciously knew. But what I would say is that I was brought up in a family, a very happy family, but in a family where there was four of us, me, my mum and dad and my brother. My brother's a couple of years older than me. And my dad and I were the sort of show-offs, if you like, do little impressions of people, make the other two laugh. My mum and my brother were the audience. Do you know what I mean? It's like that little dynamic. I'll get up and do a little funny voice my dad would make me laugh everybody was having a laugh but my mum is cigarette, cup of tea watch and laugh her head off at what was going on my brother a bit shy so I guess from an early age I was forever standing out and doing impressions of other people or doing songs or imagining in a hairbrush that I'm a major pop star like a lot of kids it's playing isn't it it's brilliant yeah so i did as i as i became a teenager i got kind of crushes on people but my crushes were never particularly pop stars or uh actors it was always comedians it was always monty python michael palin i thought was just gorgeous you know and the reason i thought it was gorgeous because he's funny you know so funny has always been very attractive to me more attractive than anything else.

8:28And so I think I wanted to go, I mean, when I was at school, I did some drama classes and my drama teacher was very encouraging. And she had been to Central School of Speech and Drama, or as we called it, Screech and Trauma. She'd been to Central School, which is in Swiss Cottage, for her training. And because I thought she was so brilliant, my teacher, I just wanted to do what she'd done. So I wanted to go to Central. So I applied to go to Central. And Jennifer, that's where I met Jennifer. We were both training to be teachers of English and drama. That's what we weren't on an acting course. There was an acting course there.

9:07And oh boy, they really were up themselves. So mostly the actors did not talk to us, the teachers. But I think they regarded us as lowly and people who didn't get onto the acting course. That's how we were regarded. Real hierarchy.

9:24Mo Gilligan: Yeah, like the hierarchy of like, we're the proper actors. We are the golden ones. You guys are not doing the thing. The golden ones. Yes. Because drama school, I always, I know a lot about drama school. I've got a lot of friends that have gone to drama school. Central, they've gone, you know, RADA and, you know, some of the really like, I think it's Lambda as well. Yes, yes. I've always wanted to go. But when I hear about how intense the training is, I'm like, I would not be able to hack it. Do you know what I mean? Do you know the reason to go? the reason I would tell people to go is because everybody needs those three years when you're about that age to be a dick frankly and you either go to university or college or get a job anything don't go directly into your career straight away because you're going to need to be a dick for three years and it's best not to do that in your career it's best to do it in some training that's the only reason I think drama schools are great go there work out who you want to sleep with what your politics are eat too much eat too little drink too much make loads of wrong choices and by the way do some of your training and then by the end of those three years you'll know yourself much better but those years when you go what when you're 18 mostly 19, 20, 21 you know you just give yourself a breather to be an idiot in that time because you do feel that like 19, 20 you're like I've got the world set out And because you totally do, you might make a little money here.

10:53Mo Gilligan: You're studying in your life. I don't need to. You know, nothing. You know, nothing. I still know nothing. And I knew much less then. And you just do need time to work out. And I also think you need to leave home then. And when you first leave home, I mean, listen, I'm not I'm not boasting, but I sort of am. I'm the chancellor at Falmouth University. Right. So I watch a lot of young people go through university. And I have learned that university isn't just about the course that you take. It's about all this crap. It's also about working out that when you get there, you're on the wrong course.

11:26The course you thought you wanted to do, I don't know, whatever it might be, Egyptian hieroglyphics. That ain't you. That isn't what you wanted to do.

11:35Mo Gilligan: You wanted to do this other thing. It's so funny you say that because I've done, I've done performing arts in theatre production, but I didn't do it at a drama school. I've done it at a university. So it was about a year in. I was like, I don't think I'm getting. what I need out of this. So once I started realising what was happening at drama school, I was like, I think I should have applied over there. Okay, okay, okay. Because now I'm being told how to operate the lights. I was like, I don't want to operate the lights. Yeah, I'm going to be in the lights. Thank you very much. And you are, so that's good.

12:06Yeah, it worked out, you know. Yeah, and some people should be operating the lights and frankly, they'd be better than you at it.

12:11Mo Gilligan: Oh, no, no. It went through one ear and out the other. It was like, yes, this is going to be a small fade. Yeah, I get it. If you want to bring that out, but this is a clear wash. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't care. I appreciate it. But listen, a good university like Falmouth, if you go and you're on the wrong course and you seriously are on the wrong course, if they've got a course that is the right course for you, they can make that happen. Yeah. You know, they can transfer you to there as long as everybody helps everyone through it a bit. You can do that. Yeah. Yeah. So what was it like when you first met Jennifer?

12:45Mo Gilligan: Jennifer, because you're in the same kind of... You're studying the same thing. So what was that like? Well, we were studying the same thing, but I'm quite a... I'm a very focused person. Let's put it that way. And I went to drama school because I wanted to be a drama teacher. So I knew I had my goal and I was going to work hard at it. And like a bottom feeder in an aquarium, I would go boom, boom, boom along the bottom and achieve what I want to do. You do give a drama teacher vibe, though. I know. Like a really cool drama teacher. I hope it's a cool one. And not just a bossy one. No, but I feel like drama teachers are always cool.

13:20Mo Gilligan: Everyone I've ever met have always been quite cool. I'll take that. But Jennifer, very different to that. Which is why I think we love each other, was the very opposite on lots of things. Jennifer didn't know what she wanted to do. Went off and spent her gap year in Italy. I was in New York, by the way. We'll talk about that if you want to. But by the time I came to college, it was like, yeah, this is what I want to do. She had been in Italy. she hadn't applied for anywhere to go. Her mum filled out all her ucker forms and said, what do you want to do? As long as I'm in London, I don't really...

13:51Her mother filled out her form to go to drama college. Now, to get into Central, even on the teaching course, I think the acting course is even harder, but even on the teaching course, you know, there's 500 people for every place.

14:04Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Jennifer got in to drama school to be a drama teacher with no intention of doing any of that. Yeah, yeah. So her mother had arranged it, right? So she's there by accident, frankly. And what she genuinely thought, without thinking at all, what she genuinely thought was that she would get free tickets to the theatre. That's why she was there. That's why she was there. Because it had the word drama in the title. Come on. So she was there not really knowing what she wanted to do. I'm there knowing exactly what I want to do. But Jennifer is very bright. so Jennifer can muck around all year and then pass the exams at the drop of a hat by studying the night before those people man they're like superheroes they are it's so annoying but she's like that we met there and when we met I had just come from this year away in New York and I had just come from the death of my dad which we can talk about later if you want to.

15:09And I was very, I had a lot of grief. But, you know, I'm coming to drama college and I don't want other people to really know about it or pity me or anything. So I'm pretending to be happy and I'm trying to be Dawn French and be a people-pleaser person. Everybody loves me, loves me. Which is familiar to me. When you're in the forces as a kid, you're moving around all the time. When you go to schools and you don't know anyone, you have to put on a fireworks display, make sure everyone likes you no one bullies you i'm a best friend i'm funny da da um so i was doing that when i arrived at that college she called us cucumber um totally different league to me she was that's what i thought of her very cool chick very beautiful uh had her own friend slightly posh i thought she's not really but that's what i thought or misguided first impressions and i thought not for me not for me and she was definitely looking at me thinking not for me so we were in different groups and then both of us simultaneously about six months into the course at the beginning of the first year needed somewhere to live and a flat became available and she applied for it and I applied for it and it was for seven people to share and I remember getting a place in that flat which was in Primrose Hill and I got a place in the flat and then I realised she also got a place and I remember thinking oh no not her and so I you know went to that flat thinking I'm gonna have to put up with her but it's a lovely flat and um and of course that was the beginning of everything and that's when you learn not to

16:43Mo Gilligan: judge a book by its cover it's so mad because I feel like you you both lived and experienced different lives and the reason why you were both there but then you came together came together which was almost like through I guess a flat yeah and you're like oh we've got to get on got to get on and not only got to get on actually like her yeah really like you and you make me laugh a lot and okay you're prepared to play yeah she was prepared to play uh the way I had learned to play in my family was very similar yeah to what she had in her family you know playful, witty people in the family. So that's what we did.

17:26We found a home in each other with that. And, you know, we've got similar senses of humour, but very different sort of approaches. But nobody in this world makes me laugh more than her. And so, you know, like I say, I just get crushes on people that make me laugh. You're not going to want to lose someone. You will know this. You don't lose someone that makes you laugh that much. It's love, you know, it's love. And you appreciate it so much. And when I think of how much I loved Eric Morecambe and still do to this day for making my whole family laugh, you know, with such great generosity. And then suddenly I've got someone in my life who is funny and wonderful.

18:02And I'm in grief at the loss of my dad a few months back. And she helps me to heal from that without even knowing that's what she's doing. Laughing and laughing and laughing helps you, you know.

18:15Mo Gilligan: When you're out and about in the street and stuff, do people just always say, where's Jennifer? Where's she at? Yeah. I only get the same thing, which is not remotely the same. But because I've done a show with Big Nasty, people literally say, where's Big Nasty? Yeah, I know. Like you joined at the hip. And it's a funny thing. I sort of like it. You must have had that for years, though. I know you and I know you go with him. And I know you and you go with her. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes, I mean, it is a weird thing. back in the day, there weren't many women that were known for doing comedy. It's all so different now.

18:49How wonderful is that? I can't even name all the women now. It's so great. There's so many. But back then, there weren't very many. So I used to experience this weird thing where people would call me Jennifer or Victoria because Victoria Wood was the other one. Oh, really? So people literally call you the name of the other person. So not only would I get, where's Jennifer? Yeah. I'd just be called Jennifer. Or be called Victoria, who also told me she was often called Dawn.

19:17Mo Gilligan: Because that was their reference. You're one of those women. And there's only four of them or five of them or whatever it was then. You know, five that anyone knew well enough. So we're just all interchangeable. It's ridiculous. When you kind of started doing stand-up, right, and you're doing comedy and stuff, because, you know, there was a show called The Comic Trip on Channel 4, like in the early 80s. Yeah. how revolutionary was it did it feel at the time did it feel like you knew something was happening or did it feel like we're just we're just having a laugh do you know what I mean I expect you will have had a similar experience to this where you're not really looking at how it's considered by others you're just living it yeah you're inside it and everything that happened to us was almost an accident everything so I get together with Jennifer in a friend she's my friend we make each other laugh we we're at college they have the occasional cabaret and of course the actors mainly are the people that turn up for the cabaret because they're the big show-offs right but they're not funny uh but they're doing that and she and i go come on let's just get and do stupid characters so we did that at the cabarets loved it loved the buzz of it loved sticking some fingers up to the actors um you know that was part of it and then i when college finished, I dutifully went on to be a teacher.

20:36That's what I was training for Mo, and that's what I was going to do. So I went to be a teacher at a school. Oh God, why can't I even remember now? I'll remember it in a minute. Anyway, I went on to be a teacher. Jennifer didn't because she never intended to be a teacher. So she's a bit footloose, fancy free. She was living in a house in Chelsea with some mates with nothing to do. I think her mum got on her back and said you need to get a job several months had gone by with her just sort of drinking champagne and not doing much and so her mum got on her back so she started looking for jobs and one of the jobs she saw by luck it was in the stage I think in that um newspaper the stage was like auditions for people to come to the comic strip which was a live show at the time it wasn't the films yet it was a live show and they were looking for women because back then I mean, what would that have been?

21:3180, 81. The whole lineup was men.

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22:14And it looked so un-PC. They were desperate for any, any women. Anybody with breasts, please come this way. It doesn't matter if you're funny, not funny. Just please come in and make us look good for having women in the lineup. So at that key time when they were so desperate for women, Jennifer sees an advert that says they're looking for women and we've got a couple of characters we do. Not very well. So let's go along to the audition. So literally I took the afternoon off teaching to go along to the audition. What I didn't know was that we had the job before we got in the room because we had the tits.

22:49So we went in and we met Peter Richardson and people. You know, it didn't matter what we did on that stage, which was pretty bad. They gave us the job. So this was six nights a week at a club in Soho, right? Half the club was a strip show, Raymond's Review Bar, and the other half was this comedy show, which was called Alternative Comedy back then. And Peter Richardson was the manager of it, so he called it the comic strip. So I was teaching all day, then I would moonlight and go to the club at night. And these were late nights. But I was young then. I had the energy then.

23:25Mo Gilligan: This is Soho in the 80s. Soho in the early 80s. Not Soho Now, which is like a lovely French restaurant. No, no, no. We're talking slightly seedy little alleyways and stuff. But this comedy was burgeoning there. And it was very odd because the bar, the bar was the same bar for the strip club as for our show. So lots of people in the bar, the guys that were, you know, in their extra big trousers that they could get their hands in the pocket to their scrotums, were mixing with all the weird people coming to see our show. And our show suddenly got a reputation for being a bit cool. We were not cool, Mo.

24:06Jennifer and I were not cool. We were girls in little cord dresses trying to think of any characters we could do. But what we had come into was Alexi Sale being the MC and Rick and A doing their act and Nigel and Pete doing their act and various other stand-ups. and somehow it was this cool little club and because it was seen as quite cool not us, we were not cool but we were part of it so we sort of bought this coolness because of it because that was a little movement that was happening visiting comedians who came Robin Williams people like this who came to London come and do a bit on the show so we had Jack Nicholson in the audience and Bianca Jagger and you know we had cool people in the audience cool people joining us on stage like just Robin Williams okay he's just going to do a quick 20 minutes okay Keith Allen would join in so it got this kind of little niche kind of reputation going so when you say it was kind of a cool little corner it was we weren't but we were in it so we got a bit of a reputation alongside it but there was also at the same time we had the comedy club round the corner where you could get up and there was a gong you know and that was above the now Gwen pub you know it was serious the gong shows were brutal

25:25Mo Gilligan: brutal and Jennifer and I do you know character comedy you have to warm up a bit plus these guys have come again straight from the strip club so two women standing up they used to shout at us to get them off that's what we would hear as we started our act get them off get them off but as you say I'm a drama teacher and Jennifer does a very funny impression of me going right stop that immediately sit down sit down We're doing comedy here. Now, just sit down, be quiet and just listen. I would treat the audience like naughty teenagers. And weirdly, they would obey and be quiet. That must have felt so cool in the moment because it's like you're saying, it's just, you're just, the word I would use is you're just vibing.

26:10Mo Gilligan: You're just like, we're doing this thing. We don't know where it's going to take us, but we're just vibing and seeing where it goes. Yeah. When people start coming, like you're like, let's say like you're Robin Williams and stuff. Does it start to feel like, OK, cool, they're coming because this is a cool thing and there's some comedy there and they want to, you know, like when people come to a place that is recognised, let's say, as cool, they're going there because they don't want to go to the mainstream place, if that makes sense. That's right. Yeah. So being part of that, did it make you feel like, oh, we could we could branch out and become much bigger than this?

26:45Yeah, I mean, again, I guess things just happen naturally.

26:53Mo Gilligan: Producers and directors of new channels like Channel 4. Channel 4 was just opening. Desperate, looking for new acts, looking for new people. Just at the time when we were doing that. So we often had people in suggesting things for us to do on telly. So different to now where you have to go out and pitch and pitch and nobody's got any open doors for you. So it wasn't like that at all. It was very open. But luckily, Peter Richardson had a vision. What he wanted us to do was not just to take any show that came along. And we did a few. We did a few kind of Saturday Night Live type shows and little bits and bobs here and there.

27:31But basically what really happened was that Peter Richardson wanted us to make films. And he knew that he could get the budgets for them. He knew we could write them. We could produce them. We could perform in them. so the comic strip then went on to become a little film company um but it was great because all of us would write them it's just you already had a little group a little rep company of actors and you would write for them so i'd write a film and rick would be in it jen would be in it so you know we'd all be in each other's stuff and you all paid the same so it didn't matter whether you had a part that was one line or whether you were the main character you know because in the next film you'll have another part you'll have a bigger part when i say all paid the same i need to point out something which was that when we jennifer and i joined the comic strip the boys were already a group right and they already had their wages sorted it wasn't a lot but it was six nights a week um with occasionally uh alexi doing mostly alexi doing the emceeing occasionally ben elton would do the emceeing or various other people but when we arrived right uh i couldn't believe it i I can't remember exactly what the amount was, but it was something like five quid each a night.

28:42It was something like that. Oh, wow. Might have been ten. Right. So let's say it was ten quid each a night, me and Jennifer. Six nights a week. That's 60 quid a week on top of my teacher's salary. Right. I thought I was in the money. This is bloody amazing. Yeah. Until we started to make the films. And there was a moment when we had a meeting as a group. and at that meeting Rick Male said and I just totally shocked me he said I think it's about time the girls got paid the same as us I had no idea we weren't paid the same as them it's just because we'd come along later yeah yeah you know and so so how much were they making I can't remember but they would have been on something like 30 quid each a night

29:23Mo Gilligan: yeah okay but Rick was the one who had a moral conscience about that and he called it to order and said it's about time they did and I went what do you mean I didn't know we weren't getting okay that's when we got um what do they call it favored nations where everyone gets the same whatever you do in the films even if you're directing it you're in it whatever you do small part big part we're all paid the same and that made for a really strong group of people yeah yeah because you know you're you one thing with comedy is that the laugh is the same The laugh is the same. So whether it's big or small, it doesn't matter who's doing it, the laugh is the same.

30:05And believe me, if you work with someone like Robbie Coltrane came in and was part of our gang, some people can come in and steal the whole film with one line. Yeah. You know, some people have got those kind of chops. So, yeah, but it made us a group, you know, who cared about each other, wrote for each other, learnt on the job. And we were like a little film industry at that time. I mean, I can't remember exactly, but we did something like 47 films or something. Oh, wow. All these little tiny, all different genres, all different flavours, all different, with amazing directors who worked with us and stuff, you know, amazing other actors that came in.

30:43When I look back on it, I think, wow, that was a fertile time. We learned a lot then. and that one of the things we learned really strong important things we learned is to have some control over what you do because although peter was taking some money from channel four to make this he insisted that we got in the edit that we were the producers on it that we had a say in everything so i met from then on when jennifer and i went and did our did french and saunders at the bbc there wasn't a moment when we weren't gonna be seeing the edit yeah when we weren't saying to the director and you have to find the right director who's symbiotic with you you know um you say to the director well we think it goes like this we wrote it and we think it's this please don't put two isolated cameras on this one this one because you're never going to quickly enough she's talking but it's my reaction that's funny at that moment i'm talking about her reactions but we need a wide shot on this yeah we we would have monitors facing us on the floor Oh, really?

31:44Yeah. And we'd say, no, no, please, Jeff Posner or Bob Spears or whoever it was. You know, seasoned TV producers. But they were kind and they understood and we're trying to do something a bit different. And we said, no, no, please alter that. If you could, do you mind alter? It never became, it was never an issue. There was never a big standoff rouse about it. Yeah. But we learned you can have some power here. And actually, if you don't have that power over your comedy.

32:09Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You're lost. Because your comedy is never somebody else's taste. especially because you know what makes the thing funny as well. You do. Especially when you write it, you're like, I know that if I say this line with this bit of a pause, it gets a big laugh. If I don't say it right, it can just be like, phew, nobody heard it. And someone else, however beloved they are, another director who hasn't written it, who isn't you, who hasn't performed it, might look at it and think, I can't see the joke there. What is the joke? And you go, no, you just must leave it with me. I remember Jennifer and I wrote a sketch once where we said to the director, bless him, Jeff Posner, who's a brilliant director, said to him, look, A, this is going to be expensive because we want prosthetics, faces and bodies.

32:56B, doesn't look like there's many jokes on the page. Please just trust us. But it meant spending several thousand pounds to have these prosthetics made for us to perform these two guys that we used to play that we called the fat men. And they were based on some guys who lived in, spent all their time in the pub that was near where we lived. And they will always place themselves near the toilets. These guys sit there with their pints, great big guys sitting there, you know, guys who haven't seen their genitals for many, many years. sitting by the thing and they'd wink at you and flirt with you on the way to the, while you're on the way to the toilet, as if you were begging for it, as if you were attracted to them.

33:43Now, these were the two guys that Jennifer and I, and we said, we need to play these guys, but it meant, you know, a particular look on the face. It would take hours to put it on. We had these big fat body suits that we'd wear. And basically once we were those guys, we would go in and do it. And it was all about slightly humping the furniture because they're overexcited. and flirting with all the girls and sort of molesting everybody. You know, it's kind of very un-PC. And we'd go on the floor and we'd slightly goose all the girls. But they knew it's us. There's two women inside doing it. But being these horrible, big, huge men who think they're a catch.

34:19Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just so sexist and awful. But we blessed them. The BBC had faith in us and let us do it because on paper we said, I don't know what the lines even are. Please just give us a corridor or a sofa and let us do it. Give us the Queen's speech. It's Christmas. They've got their Christmas hats on. The Queen is doing her speech at three o 'clock. Watch these men. Just put the cameras on us and let us go. You know, so you're improvising a little bit.

34:49Mo Gilligan: It's so interesting with comedy, though, because as a writer, you write the thing hoping that someone gets it who's not from comedy. but comedy just has it's almost like you just have to see it yeah like but it's so hard to explain in the room because it's like well I can't you can't show me then no and you certainly can't show a producer when it's just you and then you can't do it it's so hard I know it's so hard and also the thing is it's very hard to tell somebody just believe me that I know you haven't seen this before because I haven't done this before I'm doing something new and I'm doing it differently hopefully so you just have to come with me yeah how would you ever have a chat show with big nasty unless you give it a go and how do you explain what it is no one's gonna buy that you know unless you do it and see what it is you know it's like anything new is an introduction isn't it yeah and unfortunately a lot of people in control in those positions they want the same as they already had yeah or that because there's always a reference of well there's this thing and is it like that and you're like no it's probably not even close to that yeah but if that's what makes you laugh yeah this will make you laugh equally the same that's right the same yeah and i always used to say okay that's the soil that this is planted in yeah there was you know victoria wood and julie walters that's that's thank you girls for opening that door but we're not them yeah but we've grown out of that soils definitely we'll take what we can from there the nutrients from there but we're going this way We have some big sunflower that's going to grow a different way.

36:25Mo Gilligan: And you guys done French and Saunders for 20 years. Yeah, God. What's the secret to a partnership as well? Because I experience comedy where it's just myself. So I just go on stage and do the thing. And there is a partnership in the sense of the people I get to work with, a friend of mine that I write with, and a tour manager on the road, and he helps me almost write the jokes as well. but I know when I'm on there, it's just me, if that makes sense. You know, with yourself, you get to work with, you know, one of your best friends as well. Yeah. But does there become conflict with that as well?

37:03I would say that in all these years, I think we might have had three sulks.

37:11Mo Gilligan: Yeah. We've never had a big stand-up moment. Well, there was one little moment. There was one moment when she put me up against a wall. Remind me to tell you about that. is it oh yeah i'll tell you about that in a minute but basically we've had a couple of sulky moments but honestly in that whole time we just don't fall out we take the measure of each other you know and also we're flip sides of the same coin okay so i'm thinking what is it she likes about this what if we're writing something together and she goes oh you know what about this sort of character it's like well you will know this you it's like throwing the ball to someone and the other person has to catch it yeah yeah and play with it a bit and throw it back to you if the other person just does lets it fall you're humiliated and you know trying out comedy you're very vulnerable you're like unzipping and you're going oh i think it's funny what do you think he's like it oh i think it could be like that you're like no it doesn't work like that yeah that's right so you're working together all the time and also because we make each other laugh there's a lot of forgiveness and understanding and we worked alongside a lot of these men and you know they had huge rows often they're very tempestuous they made up very quickly too but they threw pints of beer over each other they stomped out they had all these dramas we we didn't have that yeah we were like you know a bit cooler about it and kind of because we wanted it to be okay we don't want the conflict really want to and i take the measure of her very quick i know her i read her so if she doesn't want to do something i'm not going to push it yeah because then the friendship's going to fall apart.

38:42She's the same with me. And what I can also tell is if she says, oh, look, this is a good idea. And I think, I don't think so. And if she goes, no, it really is. I think, OK, if it matters that much to you, let's give it a go and see. But look after each other. And if in the end we think it's not good, and you know who the real editors are, is the audience. And we did most of that stuff in front of a live audience. If they're not laughing, you know it's not working. But if they are, OK, we're fine. And, you know, you can never predict that. The one time she had a go at me was because we've got very different attitudes, well, to lots of things in life.

39:17But one of the things we're different about, and I slightly envy her take on this, is I'm not great at awards and stuff. You know, early on in our career, I went to a few of these things. I went to them with Len when he was nominated for things. And I watched How It Works and I didn't like it. It just felt like a weird, I don't know how anybody judges actors, comedy, whatever. You know, if you're a Hoover salesman with the greatest of respect to Hoover salesman and you, Mo, have sold 2000 Hoovers and I've sold 1900 Hoovers, you're the winner. No one can doubt it. You've sold more Hoovers. But your comedy versus my comedy, who's to say?

39:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And then I would look at the people who are to say, the panel, and I think, I don't even respect any of them. It's like, well, who are they? And so there was something in me. I thought I had best to step away from this because I can't understand it. I don't like it. I feel uncomfortable around it. It feels like a weird night where everyone's kind of showing off. It feels like the... There's a lot going on as well. Yeah, it's a lot. Exactly. And the channels want you there for them and they want you in a nice bit of jewellery and a witty remark and a stand and greet or stand and repeat or whatever.

40:34All that, I'm utterly uncomfortable with it. And so you have to be a fake person to do it. Or you have to put your fake thing on to do it. It's so draining at the end of the night. And I hate myself. It's like you're dripping with embarrassment. It's very draining, award shows. Oh, it's awful. And they're so long and it's rubbish. They are very draining. Listen, I like people being celebrated. I like that. But I don't like the competition. I don't think it's fair I don't like that people lose people who've worked hard all year and are very funny lose you think there's no such thing as a loser

41:06Mo Gilligan: it's always a tricky one with award shows because sometimes whenever I've gone and a show is nominated let's say for example like Masked Singer it's like oh great I get to see everyone I haven't seen in months Davina's there and Jonathan and Joel and you're like I'm going to really enjoy this if we win it's great for the show if we don't it's cool because the show is still really good and you know you're up against another show that's also really good so you get to enjoy it because it doesn't feel like your career is on the line if that makes sense because that's the kind of group of you yeah because you're like it's also you didn't write it yes it's not your heart and soul your love is in it and you get to enjoy it but I remember we had Natalie Cassidy on and she's in you know she's in EastEnders and I was like I really enjoyed just seeing Phil Mitchell that was the highlight of my night I was like oh my god it's Phil Mitchell like fanboying yeah because i was like these are all the people that i've got to see on tv and i'm being around them and this is this is quite this is quite cool but also i feel the flip side is when you have a show and you're like i kind of want this to win because i would love to get another series so i think then it becomes this weird environment where if you win it's great but you still don't know but if you lose you're like i know oh my god maybe i won't ever come back again.

42:24I can't manage it though. I haven't got the bandwidth and I haven't got the skills. It's a skill to go to them and I haven't got it. So I, a long time, backed out. So my agent knows, everyone knows, don't ask me, I'm not going. I'm not trying to sit on a high horse, just ignore me. Whatever, if anything was coming my way, give it to someone else. I'll be like that. So this was fine for years and I'd be doing some of my jobs, go off and do Vicar of Dibley and various things, Jennifer go off and do Ab Fab and whatever. But then Ab Fab started getting nominated for lots of things. And of course, Jen goes because she doesn't have the hang ups I have about it.

43:01She's much calmer. She doesn't care. She's like, yeah, it's just a game. You know, so what? Go. It's good fun. Dress up. All right. And I hope you get another series. Like you say, all this. So she had a different attitude to me. Respect for that. But the day came many years later where BAFTA offered us the Lifetime Achievement Award. but of course it's together yeah and because mine was a blanket and i'm i'm not bothering nobody you know my agent would know that jennifer would know that um and there was a moment when we went out for dinner uh and it was her and adrian and me and len and jennifer was going you know it's a shame in a way she said it's a shame it's a kind of it's not competitive one it's not like other people are losing out which is what my hangout was she said this is a kind of well done you've been doing it a long time you're still alive um you know have a badge of a jelly you know whatever she said it's like that and i said uh yeah but it just means you've got to go there and i don't like it i don't like it she went yeah okay okay anyway we had our dinner a few more drinks um and i went off to the loo and as i came out of the loo jennifer was there and she was right in front of me and she took me like that by the collar and she put me up against the wall like that and she's strong and she went look the last double act that got this award was more common wise i want to get this award because my mother would be so proud of me i don't think you should prevent us from having this award and she was right in my face like this she'd had a few drinks yeah um and i thought yeah okay okay if it matters this much i mean it's all right you know i can give in on something like that and and and again because it wasn't in competition with somebody else I felt okay about it so we went along and we got that award that was the last one I went to but I she was tough with me about it and sometimes going back to what you're saying about a double act and a partnership which is a bit like a marriage sometimes there has to be some compromise yeah you know and if something matters to you five out of ten it matters to me three out of ten I've got to raise my game for you a little bit

45:09Mo Gilligan: what was that like though getting a lifetime achievement award like you're saying at like the BAFTAs as well. Embarrassing. Just embarrassing. Did it? Why did it feel embarrassing? I just rather just get on with the work. Yeah. You know, I find the praise difficult. I find that difficult. I don't know. It's probably just in my nature. I just, I don't know. Because I always find, I couldn't imagine what that must be like. Because one, you're at an event, which again, you're not really that fond of going to. Yeah. But also Lifetime Achievement Award is where they normally have video play. Yeah. Before.

45:41Yeah. Yeah, I think they did. And Helen Mirren gave it to us. You know, it's like, you know, I know it's an honour. I know that, but I still can't quite cope with it. I just, I don't know, it feels like pulling focus or pulling tension or showing off. And here's the other thing. I think I know in my heart and I have seen people get so puffed up as a result of this sort of praise.

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47:07Mo Gilligan: This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

47:18And we are needy folk, you know, actors, comedians. There's a sickness there. These are people going, oh, look at me. We're in our nappies, really, trying to please our mums. I've got to do a funny thing over here. Everyone, look at me. That's a need, isn't it? It's a massive need. And you shouldn't really feed it too much. You shouldn't reward it too much, you know. And I've seen people get these awards and start to think they are great. And then it's gone. Then your talent, it's like a balloon. I've seen those people, some people I won't name, who's been praised and praised and praised and praised.

47:57And then you think, oh, it's gone. It's gone. It's just stopped. Because you've bought it. you bought all this crap and believed it and now you don't know who you are now you're just so great but how can you follow it up how can you be real how can you you know watch out watch out it's like a poison chalice so part of me has an instinct about that I might be wrong and I might be right and we're all different so Jennifer is much tougher than me so I think she would never fall for that she would never get so puffed up that she thought she was you know beyond learning anything but i've got a feeling it's like if if if i'm this bad with chocolate imagine what i would

48:38Mo Gilligan: be like with praise because i always say too too much praise can be a bad thing so bad yeah i mean we all need a bit of it but it's like and you yourself are the person that has to put the filters up and go okay because you know you you know that lots of people just blow smoke at your ass yeah who needs that you don't it's nice you know okay i'm all right with that that's nice a bit of mutual respect i love that but the minute you're just fanning me up for some reason i just think what were you doing what you're doing yeah why are you treating me like this and i slightly go back to my family then i think if my mother or my brother could see this going on they would slap me you know what i mean it's like and i just think yeah come on calm down calm down how did you find it when you when you're playing that the vicar of dibley yeah because you're playing that character and it's so it's so iconic in some in so many ways and what it also represents as well where it is it's comedy but it's also you know faith-based as well in some ways yeah it still travels to this day yeah you know and it's one of those comedies that I feel like, you know, you have these iconic, I don't like to use the word like sitcoms, but almost I use that word to explain you can put it on at any time and you can put on any episode and it just hits.

50:06Mo Gilligan: Yeah. As opposed to sometimes I think comedy now can be more, I haven't seen that one because I've got to watch, I'm on series two. Yeah. I've got to watch series one. Yeah. And it can be a bit hit and miss. It can. So you have to, whereas I feel like, You know, it's rare. Oh, it's very, very rare. Very rare. And you're lucky if you get one show like this in your whole life. And, you know, all respect and props to Richard Curtis and Paul Make-You-Archer. Richard came up with this idea. He came to me and said, I'm thinking about this character. And I said, and like I say, at the time, it wasn't even church law, but he was watching it go through.

50:39And he wanted to write it. And really what he wanted to write was something a bit like Dad's Army. You know, he wanted to write a group of people that have to live together, however mad they are and however bonkers they are. It was so funny, man. They have to live together. It's so, so funny. But when he first said to me, you know, I want you to play the vicar. Because there was the vicar and then there was Alice. These were the female part and then the older lady. But I thought I'd rather play Alice. I know what her jokes are. You know, she's a bit of a simpleton and she's like, you know, she's an innocent.

51:09I get those jokes. What's the jokes for the vicar? She's like at the centre of it. She's just a decent, good woman. is that funny? I don't know. It's funny enough. And I said all this to him. I said, I don't think that's the right character for me. And he went, well, okay. There's a whole list of people here who would love to play it. And he goes down the list of people who he's going to send it to next. Nothing like that to sober you up. And I went, okay, maybe no, send it to those people just yet. But I did have a fear that it wouldn't be funny enough because I was playing someone so good, decent woman, honourable, trying to do the right thing?

51:46Where's the jokes in that? Most of the characters that I loved in comedy are like Basil Fawlty, like narcissists, show-offs, idiots, Alan Partridge, you know, the people who are fools. That's what I like to play. And she wasn't that. But I trusted him. And we jumped in together. It was like jumping in the deep end together. And I thought, oh, I see. She's the facilitator for this mad group. But she also has flaws. And I said to him, give her faults. She's a bit greedy. She's needy for some love. She gets things a bit wrong, but she tries her best. And she's in amongst people where your mouth is agog at how ridiculous they are.

52:26And the other thing that he is extremely clever at is that from the outside, the Vicar of Dibley looks like a lovely, yummy, kind of cosy, British, kind of pretty cardigan on, safe little happy thing. That's what it looks like. In there is a character who is full on into bestiality. In there is a character who's just come back from Thailand and he's having a lovely time with loads of ladyboys in Thailand. In there are people... You would never be able to get away with this if you didn't fool people into this, lull them into this lovely countryside, arcadian, beautiful thing with a bow around it.

53:12and inside there all this naughty stuff was going on more irreverent probably than anything I ever did at the comic strip which was full on you know edgy we're here we're political we're left we're you know whatever this had a lot to say and we got into a lot of trouble with Vicar of Dibley we did a whole episode about poverty and we had armbands on to assign ourselves to that cause for Make Poverty History BBC not ever supposed to align themselves to a cause. But we pushed ahead with all of this stuff. We always did it for comic relief, always. And it raised a lot of me. We had Johnny Depp on there, for goodness sake, for, you know, comic relief.

53:53It was political. And it was also normalising women at the centre of that faith in a way that is very clever. So I meet a lot of female vicars now who say to me, I just get called Geraldine or Dawn all the time because of that character. and I go, sorry. And then they go, no, no, that was the bridge. That was the bridge. So some telly made a difference to how people normalised a character doing something important. How does that make you feel? It was lucky for me, Mo.

54:25Mo Gilligan: I'm just playing it. Does it like warm your heart when you meet a vicar? It says that. Yeah, it does. It's huge. It does. And I do have people have said to me, you know, people will say to me, I'm with my dad in hospital. He's dying with cancer. All he wants to do is watch this programme because it's comforting and it makes him laugh. How can you not be delighted about that? You know, my mum was ill and we watched this together. A family have watched it. I've introduced it to my little son. And, you know, he's in hospital. You know, people going through times of tribulation. It's a comfort. It's a comfort to return to something.

55:00You know it's decent. You know it's good. You know it's funny. And during COVID, you know, they showed it endlessly on the BBC because there's no new telly being made. Hooray. Ka-chin. Money from misery.

55:17Mo Gilligan: But you also had to tell us about your book as well. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there is that, of course. You know, I know the plot of the book and I don't want to spoil it because it is juicy. It's very juicy. Do you know what I mean? It's a bit tricky. It's a bit tricky. I've gone for a big one this time. And like, you've got like, let's say four of your novels are Sunday Times bestsellers. Yeah. So your latest novel, Enough, is going to be released. How does it feel now, like in this space now as an author where it's, I guess, you know, you're writing and you're in that space, which is so different, I guess, from television, which is so forward facing.

56:04Mo Gilligan: Yeah. but now you're you know it's when's the next book coming around can you can you give it because i always the only the reason why i ask because i wrote a book which is based on me and i'm so used to instant gratification of being on stage telling the joke i hear the laugh whereas when i wrote a book even though it's based on me it was the what was the yes it's gone out isn't it into the ether when you say it was based on you was it your story was it really you it's a memoir a memoir of you like an autobiography yeah so it's memoirs yeah yeah I wrote one of those as well but still I think the instant gratification of oh do people like it are people interested do they find it funny yeah I've done the audiobook I've done because I again I still put comedy at the heart even though it's my memoirs of course you do it's got these really funny stories but you're unlikely to write something that isn't your nature but you know I think what it is as a comic you get into this space of like no one it's like you know when you say oh no one's told me it's funny yet like and that's the core of it there's the sickness right there there's the need it is I know what's told you it's funny does anyone find it's funny I know it's about my life you've got your nappy on come on someone give me what I need like so how do you find it now as an author well here's the thing you know I wrote an autobiography and lots of years ago and the reason I did that is because somebody else wrote a biography of me okay and that was a very weird experience I felt like being bullied because somebody I don't know, a pretty bad writer actually, who was writing for the News of the World back in the day, got a huge amount of money to write my story.

57:42I never met this person. Oh, really? They went and talked to some people, tried to talk to people in my family. Most people were going, no, no, no, who are you? But they, I can write a book about you tomorrow if I want to, mate.

57:52Mo Gilligan: That is insane, man. I'll write a book about you tomorrow. That is crazy. And I might write some, if it might be correct, some might not be, sue me. You know, and you can only sue me about one lie at a time. so it's unlikely we're going to go to court. This goes on all the time. Any unauthorised biography is pretty much that. And it's quick buck for somebody. So this book was out there with all these lies about me and kind of misrepresenting me and important things in my life and hurting my family. So the publisher came along and said, well, what you need to do is your book, your story. So it was a need.

58:25I was responding to what had happened. So I sat down to write this autobiography and I thought, right, how am I going to do this? And I wrote my autobiography in the form of letters. I wrote to people in my life. I wrote to my dad who died. You know, I wrote to my mum. I wrote to Jennifer. I wrote to my best friend. I wrote to David Cassidy who I had a crush on. I wrote to the Beatles. I wrote, you know, I wrote fan letters. Some of them were just comedy. Some of them were heartfelt. I wrote to Lenny. I wrote to, you know, people that I loved, my beloveds and people that I admired. I wrote letters and I opened my heart up.

58:57But I told my story right through this book. So luckily that book then overtook the other book that was rubbish. And I got a telling off about the other book actually from Jennifer once, because when we were on tour, because the other book, the unauthorised biography was the only book about me that was out there. People, fans would buy it, bring it to me to sign. I can't sign that. It's rubbish. So what I used to give him 20 quid and take the book. Yeah. And Jennifer said, you're spending all your income. Yeah. So write a book that actually goes out there. So I wrote that book and in writing that book, that made me like you with your book, sit down and just be in my own head and whatever.

59:35And actually, that is where I'm very happy. Yeah. I realised then I like being in my office. I like being in my brain. I like being in charge of how this sentence goes. I want to see if I can write a better sentence. I want to see if I can write a bit like people that I've loved reading. There's a chance to be funny about difficult things. Hey, I like this. Then that book did very well. So then along comes the publishers offering me book deals to write a novel, to write fiction. I thought, can I write fiction? Come on, let's jump in. What I'll do, here's a tip, I'll pretend to be somebody who can do this.

1:00:12I will fool my brain into thinking that I'm a good writer and I'll try and aspire to write as well as I'd like to be. So you fool yourself into it and then your confidence catches up and you actually start to get better at what you do. you might not be good yet but you're getting better so I wrote a novel then I wrote another novel and all the time I'm thinking you know what our life is like on tour you know sometimes I go on tour for nearly two years and I'll go to Australia and New Zealand I might have done 250 shows or whatever on my own on stage or with Jennifer to sit quietly at home and literally be near my family have coffee mid-morning with my husband have a bit of lunch in my house see my garden and go back up and sit at my desk and be in my head alone with myself, making every single decision.

1:00:59Bliss. Absolute bliss. But I can only do that for a few months. Then I've got to get up and do some showing off again. You know, so I like a bit of both of those. That's the balance for me. That is the balance. So as the novels have gone on, I've got a bit braver. And this novel, I thought, OK, I'm going to go for the really big one. I'm going to tackle stuff. I always give myself a challenge to try and be funny about difficult stuff. Yeah. And listen, I'm 68 now. What am I going to lose? You know, it might be a bit embarrassing if I don't get it right, but I'd rather try. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I when I was 19, my dad took his life.

1:01:39This was a huge, awful thing in our family. A grenade went off and I went into major grief. and you know my dad was 45 he was young he was a wonderful happy lovely man but he had these depressions like the black dogs that they call it that would come occasionally and it was just very very difficult to deal with this terrible thing that happened as i've got older i've come to understand what was going on for my dad there's mental ill health that was going on most of the time my dad was as i say happy but it was in the grip of this terrible thing and it was back in the day when nobody was doing therapy and talking yeah you know and and it was shame around it and all that crap that goes with it was sinful and illegal and all of that so my dad sunk under that as time has gone on i've gone through all the grief and all the stages of grief and i've come all the way back around to forgiveness understanding okay i get it i get it i'm not gonna let my dad's life be in vain so i'm not going to take any any crap about suicide i'm not going to be ashamed of it it's not going to be some nasty little secret i'm going to go what why does this happen why do people make these choices what is it yeah so i understand what happened to my dad and others i understand why people might make this choice if they are in hell mentally or physically i understand that i wanted to write an even bigger subject which is a woman who is not in hell mentally or physically but decides at age 68 it is better for my kids if I don't do this last bit of life that gets all prickly and difficult where you get old and people have to look after you and your health so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put them through that so I'll tidy everything up nice and neat and I'm off yeah so she gathers her family together at the beginning of the day and she says I love you all very much but I'm off and I go what are you talking about and she goes yeah it's um you'll be fine it'll be fine and instead of doing this without you knowing and you finding a suicide note i'm giving you a day i'm going to do it tonight but you've got a whole day to ask me any questions i'll answer anything and this is a woman who's thought about it and decided right so rather annoyingly casual about it yeah it's definitely going to happen she knows the method she knows what she's going to do and of course the family just go well what are you talking about you what what's happened what's that are you okay are you well are you and the whole rest of the book is the family's arguments to her about why she should not do this and there are several things going on first of all a woman has made a decision and when a woman makes a decision climbing off that yeah there's a big deal pride failure you know all of this stuff if You decided, you've decided.

1:04:27But they have to find the cracks in her decision, in the doubt, and get in there and persuade their mum that life is still worth it and that they, who does your life belong to, actually? We all think it belongs to us. But actually, when you have kids, they have a right to you as well. So I'm trying to write about the morals of what is right or wrong to do. And when I started to write the book, I honestly didn't know what she would do at the end. And I thought, let me see. I'm going to you know I enjoy improvising and going into characters brains I'll be her and I'm going to be every single one of these kids her kids persuading her and then I'm going to see if I can persuade Dawn and Etta the main character to not do this but I didn't know if it would happen right to the last few pages I didn't know whether she would or she wouldn't so the book has this sort of tension of is she going to isn't she going to and all of this takes place in 24 hours right but inside it because i thought you need to know this woman you need to know her past i've written what i call slices which is little flashbacks to bits of her life one from each decade she's seven and she's in a garden and she's looking at her parents who think she's a ninja and she's hiding i write that little so you see meet little seven-year-old etta then you meet 13 year after having her first kiss with a boy in a in a in a park and the excitement of that and how amazing it is when a boy comes over and kisses you and you never speak but you just it's delightful You know, it's like I write that.

1:05:54Then, you know, I write about her going into the sea and thinking that she can surf and getting caught under a wave and thinking that she's going to die. So it's very visceral kind of experiences. I write about her trip to Barcelona and the joy she has when she goes to these amazing architectural places. So, you know, Etta, you meet the people that she's had children with. You meet the joys and the tragedies in her life. but you don't know what she's going to do but you hear people saying so what I really have tried to do Mo and I will be so happy if I've even achieved a tenth of what I set out to do is write a life affirming book about end of life

1:06:32Mo Gilligan: that's such a brave book to write but it sounds so exciting I know can you imagine it's like and of course I was alone for 10 months in my office with it in quite dark places with my dad in my backpack you know as my fuel and you know I could hear my dad's voice, don't be ashamed of this. Write it as strong as you like. Go there. You know, go there. And I had all that time alone with it. And now I've had the baby and I'm giving my baby to other people when it gets published, which is why I've written it so people can read it. That's the whole point. But honestly, it's terrifying because you think, please don't say my baby's ugly.

1:07:08Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Like it. Please. Please like my baby. But you open yourself to it. And I just have to be a big girl and take the knocks if they come, you know. This is a difficult... I've asked the publishers to publish it this time of year because I'm normally published near Christmas as part of Christmas sort of gifting. If your mum likes French and soldiers, this is a nice thing. But this isn't quite right for Christmas, this book, because it's a bit of a heavy read, you know. But it's got lots of fun in it. Believe me, it's got lots of fun. Because I, like you, I can't do anything without some joy in it, you know.

1:07:40You've got to bring it... And honestly, the heavier the subject, the better the laughs. You know, it's like gallows humour, isn't it?

1:07:47Mo Gilligan: It's true because I feel like you're going to get so many people that connect with it that one have gone through that stage. But also people that are going to read the book and again, they're like, oh, like this is something quite dark, but there's a lot of humour in it as well. And I feel like that brings out sometimes a bigger laugh because you're like, oh, we can laugh at this even though it's a bit dark. But, oh, OK, cool. absolutely you can and there are big laughs all the way along and there's characters and who they are yeah you know and it's there's a vicar in there you'll see there's all kinds of things in there honestly thank you so much for coming on my pleasure honestly you're such a legend in so many ways but i remember when i got to meet you at um mass singer for the first time yeah and we were sitting next to each other and i was like right man you're just like proper vibey man like we can have like i don't smoke yeah yeah if i did i feel like if we smoked yeah we have some fun stories i think you and i sitting there hoping that the microphones weren't on we talked about some very yeah yeah yeah and i keep that you know if people tell me stuff that is their private stuff i will share my private stuff yeah in the knowledge that that is zipped up yeah but you know that person a little bit that's you know and i guess is and especially at that time when you're doing this big glossy show and stuff but yeah i was like right all this proper vibey man like i don't smoke but all like a drink i don't know but yeah but um i just want to say thank you one for coming on the pod but also the gift of laughter that you give to everybody you know um you know how you've impacted so many lives through you know through humor through through stand-up through through television through books it goes very far and you know to have someone like yourself on my pod is a big deal for me I'm not going to pretend like it's not that's fantastic no I promise you like this is a big deal for me well listen and you know under the skin we're all the same and you're the joy in me and the deep in me recognises the same in you mate but we've got to give you your flowers you know what I mean you're Dawn French yeah but I can't be dealing with the praise as you well know but today we have to give you it embarrasses me shut it but today Dawn we have to give you your flowers man oh god give me some actual flowers or go to Tiffany's and get something and engrave it that's what I want we'll do it for the next episode okay we'll do the next one 100 % but no thank you so much for coming on the pod my pleasure Mo do you know what I'm delighted for all your success well thank you very much yeah I really am and you deserve every single bit of it thank you I really appreciate that and this is your beginning middle and end thank you so much dear French I appreciate you man hooray thank you so much hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today Now, a lot goes in to making each episode.

1:10:32Mo Gilligan: I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works.

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1:11:23Mo Gilligan: Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.