EP 96 - Kamille: How A South London Girl Became Pop Music Royalty

0:00Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market.

0:30Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and right now you're listening to my podcast, Beginning, Middle, and End. Now, today's guest is a powerhouse behind pop hits from Dua Lipa, Kylie, and has been named the fifth member of Little Mix. That's right, she's written over six UK number ones. She's picked up Brit Awards, Grammys, and even an Ivor Novella Award for outstanding song collection, making her the youngest black female to receive the honor. So please welcome to the podcast It's singer, songwriter And one of the UK's biggest talents Please welcome Camille But thank you for coming on the pod man Thank you for having me Appreciate you so much for doing this I am so honoured So thank you for coming on man This probably is my favourite Gonna be my favourite podcast Well I always feel like I see you and your family Always online anyway We're always online Like do you know what I mean Whether I see like your husband's with the cars and stuff I know Do you know what I mean the content and stuff that you do online.

1:28Mo Gilligan: So I feel like I, you know when you know someone but you ain't met them? Does that make sense? I know what you mean. But also, there's a collectiveness of like, I know you because we're black in it. I don't know why that makes sense. But it makes sense, you know what I mean? It's just so. But do you know what the worst thing is? I feel like you have existed on every single member of all of our lives. Oh, thank you. Our phones, our TVs. I feel like we all know you. Oh, thank you. You're just your amo, isn't it? You're everyone's way The people's way I didn't know you were from South though I didn't know that I didn't know that So like Let me ask you something You're from South Yes How did that shape Your surroundings For the job that you have now I feel like it was just For me The culture Like I just only know Straight up to be Part of my culture So it was like Seeing people who look like me It was being able to get Planting down the high street That for me As a like Young Jamaican girl Was everything Being able to like Have the freedoms Go to the park And everything Just felt very close Anyone you know Streatham You know like The high street The longest high street In Europe Might I add It's got the most Chicken shops on the strip It has the most Chicken shops on the strip Yeah yeah yeah Fun fact But those chicken shops Are part of who I am Do you know what I mean I want to know I can go to Morley's After the rave And I want to know That I can then Go to the fun fair And you've got Sainsbury's right there Like everyone God bless that Sainsbury's I used to work In that Sainsbury's Do you know what I mean I did I had a Christmas job There every year I'd go and work there So I feel like Yeah Streatham Is just who I am And then Having so many Incredible people Come from Streatham Like I would go to Nuffield gym And like Richard Black Would have been there Do you know what I mean And talking to my dad And then You'd find out like You know Ray's from Craydon and Streatham And I would always Me and Ray She's just incredible Obviously But like It's just a hybrid Of culture and music And talent And realness It's a very real area Do you ever find With South London Like there's so many people that you meet and it's always the same.

3:26Mo Gilligan: Like I didn't know you're from South. Does that make sense? I literally did a TikTok the other day where I was like, I was saying, yeah, I'm a young girl from South London. Everyone's like, you're from South. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do we give off that doesn't make us look like we're from South though? I don't get it. I know, I know what you mean, but we also know that like South London, like, you know, when you live there, you're like, oh.

3:50Mo Gilligan: But only we can say that from being from South Because like for example The reason why I asked that question Because there's two sides of Streatham That I know You've got the Streatham Like Streatham Common Which is only until probably in my late Well late 20s I was like sorry where is this In Streatham Because I only know High Street Streatham So like a lot of people don't know that there's like two sides to an area if that makes sense yeah and I always find that like with south we always have that like you know depends that from you know for like myself I always play like football and and stuff so like when you see someone who's like oh like how did how did your area shape you because I feel like with east london we know that you know it's so synonymous with like you know the grime scene for example so we're like oh I can see why okay you do music now do you know what I mean where South is like musicians and actors I'm not saying the East doesn't I don't want to create that don't because they will do that on social media that one clip yes yeah yeah because I feel like especially Southwest is so close to Streatham then you've got Brixton Hill Brixton that area in itself is like it's his own world yeah it's like a fusion it is it's a beautiful thing though I just feel like from Brixton all the way to Croydon like is my home.

5:12Yeah. I will, I'm a T Heath girl. I literally reside, I used to every summer, Thornton Heath was like the parks and the, you know, got cornfields. I'd get my patties from there. And it's just like, I just love South London so much. Was you singing at a young age? A very young age. I used to sing in my church and I was always in the choir. I was always in plays in my school. I just loved it so much. I knew I wanted to be on the stage. I was very fresh I was very very extra when I was a little girl My parents when we'd go on holiday I'd always be that little girl on the stage dancing You know the evening entertainment in your hotel I'd be up there Like that was my thing So yeah I just loved it I loved the attention when I was little And loved expressing myself

5:57Mo Gilligan: So where you are now within like your life and your journey Where you know you're songwriting And you're doing it for other people is there a part of you that feels like maybe I should have kept this one for me yeah because I've do you know why I ask this because I'm someone that does stand up right and I have a friend of mine who helps me write now he's you know he everyone has a different person that helps them write for example so a friend of mine called David Ajo he helps me write so he can look at the joke and say do you know what maybe take that out or that bit works I'm not too sure about that Do you have ghostwriters in comedy as well?

6:35Mo Gilligan: It is but it isn't if that makes sense Okay So he won't write the thing for me for me to do because I know me and I'm like It's your style I'll just be like I'm not doing it because I don't know if it's funny I have to write the thing to be like ha I find that funny Okay If someone else wrote it then I'm like I don't know it Okay But he will definitely help me write in a way that he's like oh that's good or what you should do is have the callback for that thing and that brings it together. So he helps me structure and write in that sense. But I've always wanted to know as a musician where you, especially for where you are now in your career, where you've got these massive hits where you say, you know what?

7:15Mo Gilligan: Maybe we should have just took this one for me, you know? I've always wanted to know that. Especially when it blows because yes, there's like, you know, you've written tons of songs but it must be the one where you're like, There's loads. I could have executed this a bit Do you know what it is? Do you know what it is? I feel like it wouldn't, you can think that, but that's not to say that that song would have been a hit with me or with the writer because it's the artist. I think a big thing that I have to put respect on is the artist and what they bring. Like a lot of people are like, oh my God, the songwriters.

7:51And yes, songwriters are so important, don't get me wrong, but there's a magic in what that artist brings. Honestly, I've seen it time and time again. The thing that they do when they're on stage and the...

8:00Mo Gilligan: So have you been in the studio when it's happening? Yeah. And you're like, I didn't rewrite it to be sung like that. To be sung like that. There's been times that that's happened. To be fair, there have been times, you know, a lot of times I've recorded the demo, for example, and then the artist might be cutting it and people are like, oh, can you sing it? Maybe how Camille's sung it or whatever. But equally, there's been times when I've sung something and the artist is just blowing it out of the water and done a much better job. My demo sounds like trash now. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know.

8:28I don't see it like that. I also have a really strong belief Every song has its purpose And a reason That's one thing I live by There's a lot of songwriters Are pissed when Songs they've done You know They've gone to big artists And they couldn't keep it But who's to say that song If you didn't give it to that artist Didn't get you into another room Or like Another stage of your career Is now happening because of that So I just live by that mantra I also know I'm blessed And I write more songs Which I have done I can only speak on my experience Like I know this is a talent That was given to me By God So I feel like More just flows out with me anyway And I don't, I think when you hoard things like that, you can stop your blessings.

9:02That's just the way I look at it. So I feel like if something is happening and it's running away with itself, like the songs here and now an artist has got it and I just go with the flow. I try not to get into that mindset because you can block your own, you can block your own truth and your own blessings sometimes when you do that.

9:17Mo Gilligan: Is there like a pleasure in creating a piece of work though? And almost being like, I've got this and I'm just giving it away. Whatever happens, happens. It's amazing. because the only similarities I would say is through stand-up yeah when I record a special I don't get to do that again I can't do the material again it's done and it's given to the world I get to yes when I'm performing I can do as long as possible for as much as I want to but the minute it's recorded and put out there that's it that date I know all the dates where I'm like yeah I remember that date it's done I can't I can't like dip back into it where I'm like oh let's let's just drop this one in and see because people like the way that feels though do you wish sometimes you could like it's 50 50 because sometimes you're like okay i want the world to see this now i've been doing this joke for 18 months do you know i mean you're like i'm not sick and tired of it but it needs to be seen but then also there's other parts of you that you go uh i used to really like doing that bit that was the bit that i used to enjoy like if i start a set and I get to do that bit that was the coolest bit but I think the reason why I ask is because it's the it's the giving up it's the it's it's there now for the world and the only reason why I ask is because for someone who writes for other people and you you know sometimes you might think I might write for myself but give it away yeah is there a okay that's it now that's it yeah you know I mean yeah definitely I think for me why it might be a bit easier for me is because I hear it every day on the radio or like I see it performed all the time and then artists obviously are constantly performing their repertoire so like with you that one show that's it even though we might watch Netflix a million times you're not feeling that yeah you're kind of doing it and I guess with me I hear I go to into Sainsbury's and my songs on the radio and I get that validation or I get that experience again so I don't really have that as much I guess I think what I do sometimes have though is sadness if I release a song with someone and for whatever reason it hasn't done the way we planned.

11:20Some songs just flop and no one can control that. It could be a time or an experience or pop culture is very like, it's this like zeitgeist thing. You can, it's like, okay, I wrote a song with David Guetta and B.B. Rexall one year. Nothing happened with this song. Like nothing. He just left the studio and was like, okay, bye, in France. Off he goes. I never heard from him again. And then literally a few years later, he played it at, you know, the club And it went to number one the following week That literally happened with I'm good I'm good, I'm feeling like Literally, so it's like things that happen A lot in my industry where I'm just like Huh, like what is, what does I even You can't control it, so I don't know, I feel like you have to go With the flow and just let, just put the My job is to put the art out That's all my job is to do, I don't know how it could Flop, it could do well, who cares at this point I just love having fun I love being in the studio Yeah

12:15Mo Gilligan: Because your big breakout hit was What About Us right? Yeah that was the first I walked out of my job as a songwriter And then I went into a studio And was hanging around in there like every day Just begging to be And they're like What's going on? What's going on? And just hanging around And I came up with this idea Did they not let you into the studio then? Well this is when I was I hadn't had any hits or anything yet Yeah yeah My dad knew the owner of the studio And just helped me get there And I just used to go there and hang around I was literally like One of them little Griefy gals On the sofa Like just hanging around But I loved it And I wrote the song What about us With some incredible people And it just Got taken to a record label Taken to the girls Released Number one And that was when I was like Okay this is what I want to do This is so fun Yeah And it took me like Five minutes to write that song It was not It didn't feel like hard work That's crazy though Five minutes I know That is a flex in itself A lot of songs I write I'm really quick and everyone's like oh my god this is massively written I'm like you lot no it's only about half an hour it just comes like that though that is an incredible talent but I can say to you like you're so you know there's some people it's so funny yeah I feel like you and Will Ferrell are probably what two of the people that I can just look at and laugh oh thank you I appreciate it that's big acclaim though we're in different places in life you know if only we had the same back the same back No, because if I put on one of your videos, I'm going to laugh.

13:48There's not many people that do that. Do you know what I mean? So it just comes through. I don't feel like, I know you're saying there's work behind it, but I don't get the sense that like it's hard work for you. Because you're just a funny person.

13:59Mo Gilligan: You know what it is? It's weird because like when I'm around people and I'm being myself and I'm comfortable, I'm like, I'm just being me. And being me means me being funny. If that makes sense. Not that, yes, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have off days Definitely do, do you know what I mean? But like my off days are not around making people feel bad If that makes sense So my off day would just be like, I don't know, I'm just tired So my off day is just like, bro, I just need to sleep right now, you know? And we've got this shoot that's going on later I beg just 30 minutes Just 30 minutes But it's not so much, that's not the round of people but I'm way of it.

14:41Mo Gilligan: It's just more, I can't keep up to that level of, do you know what I mean? Because people are looking at me, especially if you're on set. Do you know what I mean? But do you get that as well? Like even in your friendship groups and stuff, that people was looking at you for the jokes. I think in my friendship group though, because we're all quite funny. So we all have our moments. Okay. But the one thing I think I have over everyone else is that my, My comedy can diffuse situations And it can also Be confrontational That is also funny If that makes sense So something can happen And I'm like So right boy Like Man's not going to pay the bill now And everyone's laughing But there's a truth in that Everyone looks at me And says like The only moat could really Could really say that I love that Because if it was someone else It might be an argument Or oh shut up So it helps in that scenario Does that make sense?

15:38Does it help in your relationship? If you're having an argument Can you like Laugh your way out a bit With your girlfriend?

15:44Mo Gilligan: No I can't Because the minute I start laughing She's vexing it Yeah she's like Why are you laughing? So I'm just like Okay There has been times though Where I just wanted to Boss up Come on hold it together man But it's got me out of situations of like For example like road rage for example Yeah Like There's times I've put the window down And I'm just like Bro we can't crash our car This The economy's too It's not happening right now And then people just laugh So I've used my humour To get out of Tricky situations And there's people that Oh Rob Mo Hey what's going on My brother My brother might have bad You know what I mean Like yeah But Yeah I'll be lying if I didn't say I had I had my down days But writing a song in five minutes Is How does Can I ask how does it start because oh my gosh you know why I write is because I believe everyone like like a comedian everyone thinks they can sing like there's times where I'm in the shower and I'm like ooh I have to record this you know this might be something yeah so like how is it even writing because how do you start I've only ever heard one person talk about writing a song and even then I still didn't still didn't get it didn't get it do you know what I mean Do you know, it can be different every time, but typically, okay, so I'm in a studio with the artist and their record label said to me, okay, this artist needs a massive hit.

17:11We need a hit. There's a lot of pressure. So I'm in the studio. I have to usually be a fan of this artist to work with them or like what they're doing because I want to, I'm thinking like a fan. Yeah. So I'm thinking, right, what do I want to hear from you next? Okay. So let's say, I don't know, I want to hear a big pop banger from you. So I'm thinking it needs to have tempo It needs to have energy I'm thinking how would I like Wim to it in the club Whatever it is right

17:35Mo Gilligan: So let's say I'm a record exec now So I'm like okay listen We need a hit Like honestly Right now We done a great project Yeah And like we really want to get like a Like a Bad Bunny reggaeton This is literally happening This is the thing that's happening right now We want like a Bad Bunny reggaeton vibe But like the artist has got like this kind of Like she's from the urban scene Yeah is that is that can i say that yeah you know she's uh black she's black that's it i don't know um yeah so like what would you bring to that sound you know we're looking like and like i'm thinking of like a summer banger you know like i'm thinking i'm thinking of like i'm having a mojito and i'm like hearing this

18:25Mo Gilligan: I'm in Mikanash, you know And I'm hearing this song You know So what are you thinking of that? Are you, you know, what's your vibe? Do they do that? And they look in your eyes So what do you Yeah, 100 % that happens To be fair, we don't even I think us writers don't actually even get that much detail Usually record labels could be like We just need a hit And you're like, okay, so what are you looking for? And they're like, just, you know, we need a smash I'm just like That could be literally anything But do you know what I feel like When you get in the studio For me It's I'm on the chords I'm on a piano Or I'm like making a beat Or a producer's there It's like a big vibe Everyone's just Everyone's doing their thing So it's like something Kind of like a film It is It's very It's a magical experience Is it like hustle and float?

19:12Yes 100 % Really? Yeah Wow It is like that It is It's like And someone will say something And then I always have to get on the mic because one thing I have is melody. Like that's my strength. Lyrics take me a bit longer. I have to really sit and think about it. There's a lot of writers who can just be like, they're like Shakespeare, like, and the cat and the hat and the bat, the bat said to the bat said, I can't do that. So I'm, but I can do melody. Oh, wow. Like I can, I can just come up with a melody initially, like straight away. And then sometimes I'm singing something. So let's say I'm singing.

19:48Okay. Let's go I wanna

19:55Can you hear any words I can hear it I can hear it So then I'll be like So I'm like okay Body or party Or There's words that come out Of the gibberish

20:05Mo Gilligan: This is what I'm hearing In Mykonos I'm feeling it man Great Exactly Mykonos vibes Then I'll record that And then we all start Right into like My gibberish Thing And then it just starts to make a song and then you start it just comes together it's so sick I've always wanted to be in one of those rooms you have to come to the studio I swear to you okay listen I'm going to set up a session you should come you know what's magic so many musicians would be like hey Mo come studio innit but I'm always hesitant because I'm like I would love to come and see the magic yeah but the minute and you've got to remember the people that have invited me to the studio the many rappers innit so I know what's going to happen yeah come studio come studio hey Mo you're funny innit like jump on the mic do some couple of cans on the mic innit And I'm like nah I don't know if I want to do that You know Listen and when you're there With the drillers Then you'll be like Hey you gotta do some jokes You can't be here for free But they could have sampled that though I feel like You can do this stuff Like Will Ferrell did Possibly But also it's like If the song don't bang We should just sample you Yeah We should just sample you And people used to sample my voice When I used to do like The videos and stuff Yeah Like people would sample my voice But you want it to You just You don't want it to get You don't want to be in the cloud Do you know what I mean You're just there For the vibes then Because it's actually Really important To have people in the room Who give you a good energy Do you know what I mean You can get very serious In the studio I hate that That's when I make up A fake call or something I gotta go I do that sometimes What's the longest You've been in the studio for Oh my god A whole 24 hours Really Yeah in LA You have like a break You might come out and leave But people don't play sometimes I don't really do that anymore Because I just feel like Ever since I've become a parent I just haven't got time For those kind of sessions You value where You put your time so much in it.

21:50And I'm more laser focused now because I haven't got time. You see, like now you've got your baby at home. So this is getting wrapped up. You haven't got time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now you're even more focused with the time you have. I feel like being a parent really changes your whole game and perspective. So now I'm just like, this song's getting done in an hour.

22:06Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And it'll probably be better than when I was taking a whole day because now I'm like, ch-ch-ch. Speaking of songs, Little Mix. Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market.

22:46Mo Gilligan: Said, and I don't want to quote them, but they literally said you were pretty much the fifth member. I know. What does that relationship mean to you? Because like, I don't think we've seen a female like group like that in years. Do you know what I mean? The way that they captivated people's attention. I feel like we grew with them as well Of seeing them on a television show To now, you know, they're parents now Do you know what I mean? They've got their solo careers And, you know, their husbands And their children and stuff How does it feel, like, for them Saying that you're, like, the fifth member I think I just stalked them, essentially I was, like, obsessed with them From the first minute I met them And this is very early on in my career Like, I was also, you know, with similar ages We're all kind of coming through the industry at the same time.

23:38I had just been working on the X Factor. So I used to work on the X Factor a long time ago, actually. It's when I first met Simon Cowell and I was kind of there as like a coach, essentially, and learning about stuff. And I remember they just came out of the show and I was just obsessed with them. And I just knew, we connected. The minute I met them, one day I had to go meet them. I was so nervous. I went into the room and they were all in there and they were like, come on. And it's just like, and we hadn't even met yet. So it's just, it was just that energy And I think I got to voice a lot of my, I guess, pain through songs we wrote, like breakup songs and empowerment songs for females.

24:15And like Shout Out to My Ex was for all of our exes. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't just because one girl had the experience. And that's how I am in real life with my friends. If someone has done something to you, I will fuck them up. I'm that bitch. Like, don't play with me. I'm outside the house with you.

24:31Mo Gilligan: What's that sign of you? Cancer. Oh, okay. Yeah. What's that sign of you? I'm a Pisces Oh my sister's a Pisces He waterfiles Okay gang Very sensitive But very creative We'll draw you a good picture We're so creative But we are sensitive And do you know what I will say Sensitivity isn't a weakness Because a lot of the time I feel like people brand it like Oh why are you being so sensitive Like why are you being that I'm like It's actually a beautiful thing To be an empath And to like have emotion I struggle with people Who don't have like that level of awareness I can't deal with that happy birthday yeah no I can't I can't I can't connect with that that does bug me sometimes people be like oh you're so sensitive and I'm like yeah so I love that about me you'd be like listen it's good you know because when it's your birthday I'll really care you know do you know what I mean I'll get you a really good gift we're the best birthday people we are we are I'd do it very nonchalant no no no it's all the other thing about that yeah yeah yeah chill chill chill chill exactly but if you don't say thank you is a big deal.

25:36Mo Gilligan: Oh my God, I hate people that say thank you. The gratitude is huge for me. I feel like I'm already like training my children to have the manners in our house, the level's so high. Yeah, yeah. And it's every time you have to repeat it with them. Every little thing I give to my son TJ, what do you say? Thank you. Let me ask you something. When you are driving and you get to a zebra crossing, if people don't say thank you, is that... I say that so much. Yeah, but that happens a lot though. And I was bare People were really rude On the street People were rude That one is the one That stresses me out I don't get it Especially when you've been waiting You dip in So you wait So they can come by us And you're looking at them Like You say thank you But you know it's like I could have run you over You know I could have just run you over And the fact you didn't Thank me for that I feel like people do it though It's an ego thing It really is I've noticed that Because there's a lot of There's a lot of drivers Who do that Just to prove a point And make you feel a bit of shit I've clocked it But it also We know that When you drive a nice car It's also like A thing as well So if you drive a nice car People go You know Yeah Yeah That's what it is I feel like But people shouldn't be jealous But that's You know it's a London thing though Isn't it It's like I get it Because when you live in London You're like Alright I get it Isn't it Like Do you know what I mean Like Everyone's going through it Everyone's going through it But it's like It reminds me London is very much like New York Yes Where everyone's like Man fuck that guy man You got to my brother You alright Hey what up my man You good Hey what's up man Much love You're like I know you was just Chatting shit Do you know what bugs me Let me tell you what bugs me About this right I feel like What I've achieved And what my husband Tommy has achieved I keep saying this shit It's nothing that No one else can't do That's what bugs me the most That you think You can't also have this Or do this It actually really Irritates me That people Can't see how much they can have in their life.

27:35Yeah, yeah. Of course, yes, it's hard work and it's, you know, it's so tiring and it's stressful and it's so much sacrifice, so much sacrifice. But I spend so much of my time encouraging people online to do more than what I, we haven't even done anything in far as I'm concerned. Like my brain is already, it's out here in the sky from what I want for my life. So sometimes when I see jealousy or stuff like that, I just want to like twist it and just twist their mindset a bit because you can have more than this though.

28:02Mo Gilligan: Do you find you guys get a lot of that though? with yeah being like very open about your lives as well do you know i mean because you're really both successful in different paths but we also do you know i mean that when you put things online you're just like oh i'm just like i'm on holiday or well you know whatever it is you you get evil eyes do you know i mean a lot of evil eye but you know i would say is i think what i hear from people Is they can read our personality And they can see that We're not boastful We just really enjoy what we're doing Like for example Tommy is honestly obsessed with cars I think even if he didn't own the cars He would be wanting to do that content Yeah yeah He's just obsessed I'm obsessed with what I do And we love showing people And inspiring people And we love helping people Like the amount of DMs I get I answer every single one I spend more of my time doing DMs Than even posting probably Really?

28:55Oh my god Just because people I want to help people have a chance and I want to help people find their way I didn't really have that help when I started so I feel like if I can be here to help and inspire that's what I'm going to do like recently I was awarded inspiration award at the MPG awards which is a crazy accolade to have and even getting an Ivor Novello for like outstanding song collection and when I produce records and I see my name on a song it will have Camille writer Camille producer are like that for me is why I do this to inspire if you get a car out of it great I'm only just learning that cars are more profitable and much more of a finance better financial option than buying a house Tommy's taught me that I didn't know that before yeah yeah do you know what I mean so for me it's just about encouraging I don't mind of course you're going to get a few people that are like but you know what we're two young black people from an area that who would have thought we would have done this and if I can inspire 80 % of people and have 20 people jealous and I've done a good job.

29:53I don't really give a shit about those people because I want other young people to see that it's so possible. That's why I just pushed forward with it. Couldn't give a shit.

30:02Mo Gilligan: I guess as well is because a lot of people don't show the behind the scenes enough as well. Do you know what I mean? I think we're quite fortunate to be a generation that we had social media, but it wasn't used for that. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, oh, I put a picture up on Instagram of my food and how I look. I think now the newer generation are quite fortunate. They can do a vlog Streaming You know You can stream all the time And show that Oh this is when they done that And when that happened with this Exactly Whereas I think We are the social media generation Where it was like DIY Do you know what I mean You look at the late Jamal Edwards That would get a camera And that's what everyone used to say You know Get a camera You go out there You can be successful Do you know what I mean Same like Get a microphone You can write some songs Do you know what I mean So I think we are definitely That kind of DIY generation Do you know what I mean speaking of DIY generation you compared stepping out as a solo artist to being an astronaut what did I say please can you explain for the for the for the listeners I mean I think maybe what I was trying to say I'm really impressed with that segue I can't lie I was thinking where are you going with that speaking of DIY I was thinking this presenting things too you know you're very good Do you know what?

31:19I feel like what I probably was trying to say is it does feel like you're stepping out into like an abyss. I feel like I don't know where the hell I'm going with this artist stuff. And I hate the fact that usually as an artist, you have to have everything so perfect, perfect rollout, perfect look, perfect stylist, perfect music. And a lot of the time, most artists, especially now, number one, you don't have budget to do all that stuff. And number two, you actually don't, you're figuring out every day as you go.

31:44Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So I don't know, I feel like for me, my artist journey has been really difficult. It's not been easy. I'm just kind of like going with the flow, questioning myself every single day. I cry a lot about my artist project because it's something I wanted to do from the beginning. I started out wanting to be an artist, but I just came through the writing route and didn't get a chance to do it for myself. So I don't know, it does feel like I'm a bit of an astronaut because I have no idea. And I feel like I'm constantly being pulled into like different orbits sometimes. And even now any artist will tell you They're doing stuff for an algorithm Or they're doing stuff Because they want this to go viral And I think we've all kind of lost A bit of who we actually are It's very hard to maintain who you are As an artist now Probably harder than ever Because you're just taught You know any record label If you sign to them Will be like Okay you need to go and make content You need to go viral That's the first thing they want you to do And how the hell do you know how to go viral No one knows how to go viral Because you're so accidental as well You can't create it um you can't and you can't you can't it's that thing of once you go viral i think the biggest curse is going viral and it happening overnight because then you're like i don't know what worked it was this one and i can't now replicate it because it's the viral thing does that make sense and the more you replicate it the worse it is because then everyone's like all right you're overdoing it now yeah yeah yeah you're like oh you're overdoing it now okay um it's so hard yeah i i go into schools and you know they always ask me you know some of the younger kids of you like oh the first thing they always say is that can you finally be back on instagram and i'm like it's crazy because i'm like nah you say no like yeah nah i can't you know i went to one school and you know what's really funny yeah i went to one school recently and it was great you know talking about dyslexia and stuff and you know doing this talk And I'm looking at these kids And they're like We don't know you You know I can just see In their eyes They're all like Big man We don't know who you are You know And then afterwards It was so funny They was like One of them said Oh Can I ask How many followers do you have?

33:58Mo Gilligan: So I'm like Oh just close to like a million And they go Raw Is it? That's what means a lot to them Yeah And they're doing questions And then Some of the questions were like Oh like What sacrifices Do you have to make And I was like Alright cool We got I'm like This is a good student She's got her head On her shoulders So you gotta do this Gotta do that I did it again They were like Brother we don't care You know We don't care About what you're saying And someone else said Who have you met Who's the most famous People you met right So I'm trying to Give them some Inspirational names I said You know I met King Charles You know The kids were like Who Who's that I was sitting there just like oh my god and then i pulled out a name and i was like mo these are young kids they don't i said oh i met um i was i can't remember his name now he's from queen um but i said i met brian may from queen oh my god you you for the what are you i i basically said to them i met william shakespeare and these kids looked at me like who is that man and then one of them said um is there any like do you know chunks i said yeah the whole that's all they wanted that's all they came up some of them said oh can i have an autograph i said yeah yeah they said oh who else have you met this and i started lying you know it's like yeah i said yeah i'm at i show speed yeah yeah yeah oh my goodness you mean i show speed I said yeah I got KSI KSI Whoa I said no man You to be fair though You've got to kind of Make it bespoke For your crowds You've got to give them To what they want man Brian May Make up different lives man Honestly That's so funny though Because I feel like young people Today I sound like some Old elderly person When I'm saying this But they are very like They're focused on what they want And what they see they don't give a hoot about anything else and to be fair i quite like it because it's very real and they're just in their own bubble and i remember when i was in the bubble like that and my parents could tell me nothing do you know what i mean so i think it just means that we've crossed over to the other side yeah that was my realization i was like i think i'm old now like because it seemed like the teachers were more interested in what you were saying the kids were like bro We're just trying to get 10 minutes off of our learning time right now.

36:23Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Before we go to lunch. But we digress. We digress. So K1 and K2, they're very personal records for you. Yes. How does it feel in a sense to be making records and, you know, you're putting your own story out there? Because you said, you know, you spoke about, you know, like your family and yourself and you've written for other people and stuff. So how does it, how is it where you are now with those kinds of records? Oh, it's horrible. Why? Because for me now, I feel like I'm kind of, there's just so much pressure on me. Do you know what I mean? I honestly, if I could capture like the studio bit of making the record and just have that be the end of it, I would be such a happy, happy artist.

37:11Like, I don't know. Okay. I remember being in the studio and I was producing a record with Nile Rodgers and I'm at Abbey Road, right? I'm the producer, me, and Nile Rodgers is playing the guitar and I'm recording him. And it's just me and him. And that for me is like heaven. If that could be it, I'd just be so happy as an artist. But the hardest for me bit now is having to like every day promote and every day think of content and every day go out and every day see other people doing all this stuff. and not compare yourself. And I hate that so much. I find it so like soul destroying. I find it really hard for my mental.

37:52It takes up so much of my time. Like this job is very time consuming. Yeah, massive. So I'm just being real when I say, yeah, I think it's horrible that part. I hate it. I love the bit of just making the song and creating stuff. And if I could just release it and just bounce, that would be my ideal.

38:07Mo Gilligan: Yeah. But you have to really work all the other stuff. In fact, I think that bit's probably more important now than even making the song. I think all the other stuff that comes with it, which is just, ugh. Does it put into, so long. Does it put into perspective of like when you make a song now and, you know, as opposed to writing it and you're like, well, I've written a song and I've done my bit and you perform it and you do the other stuff. Whereas now, you know, it's like, I've got to do the work. Yeah. Yeah. How does, how does that, I respect the artist so much. But is there almost like something that's kind of like bittersweet in some ways that what, what's at the end of the tunnel does that make sense oh my gosh definitely and also i have this horrible kind of thing of seeing the success because to me in my mind my mind registers musical success is like something that's quite easy so imagine you've had 10 years of like bop number one bop number one yeah and now it's the complete opposite for me in fact it's probably like twice as hard now and i can't quite sometimes compute why it's taking so long or why this is much more difficult because I'm only used to having success I've been very blessed in that way to have that luxury of that so it's just I'm in a really weird place with it and I actually think just even talking to you about this is so like healthy and good for me to be able to say it because I hate this fake shit and I hate like the way a lot of us artists feel like you have to act like everything's great and oh yeah my record's coming out this week and it's perfect and it's just not what it is we all know it's just hard so yeah in answer to your question i have to be honest it's just shit that bit of it is really you know what do you know what's what's really beneficial though for you as an artist i think you have a level of transparency that you can say that whereas because you you know you've you can back it up in the sense of well like well i've got the credentials and i've won the awards and i've seen the outcome so i can say that so they must Feel like a level of like Ease where you're like Okay I'm putting myself out there But I know That's true People know my catalogue If that makes sense That's true But also I guess There's also another pressure On top of that Because people are like Well okay we've seen What you've done for everyone else That's true okay I hear you Do you know what I mean I hear that You're right You're right And I hope that it does help When I'm transparent I just think Sometimes the hardest thing for me Is that Like I feel like And it's funny We all probably feel this You know you feel like you post something and you think everyone's watching yeah yeah yeah isn't that like the weirdest most horrible feeling sometimes you sit there looking at your post you scroll on Twitter hours later and you're everyone I don't care who you are Drake probably has just done that with Iceman what five comments do you know what I mean take that down we all do it and I'm like oh I just wish that bit wasn't there I really wish that all the metrics on social media were gone because I think then it would be such a healthy place that if you I know you can turn off your lights and your things but if it just didn't exist and we were just posting it's just yeah that part of it i find really hard i think it's it's interesting with like your journey because when you look at some like where you started from in a sense of you know like let's say making songs for the saturdays and working things like x factor social media wasn't at the forefront of the outcome and i think it is the outcome for everything you know you put the film out we need a big social push we need the actors you know collaborating on posts do you know i mean it's like 10 10 o 'clock guys yeah make sure you collab and and i think so it's so much do you know i mean it's it's and it's even look for someone like myself who does a pod and you know we get guests on and i'm like oh like when the post comes out if you want to collab with it it's up to you because it is like i'm not i'm not annoyed if you don't it's fine but this is your work in it so if you want people to see it, it's fine, it's okay.

42:01Mo Gilligan: And I'll be honest, sometimes I haven't collared Diva. Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes I'm like, yeah. It's such a part though, if you don't collab. And you see the thing, you see the notification. Sometimes I will generally not see it. And I'm like, no, I swear to you. Sometimes it's been like two weeks. I'm like, oh, right away. I forgot about this one, you know. So if I do it now, I feel like, I feel like, you parted it and now you tried to bring it back. So yeah, there are times. In that moment, do you just do a little comment and underneath that like you saw it or do you not even comment on it?

42:35Mo Gilligan: No, I will like it. And I do comment. And I collab with every post.

42:44Do you know what? Can I just say something? Let's just be real about collab posts, yeah? Sometimes, sometimes, I think in that moment, you just might not want that collab thing on your page.

42:53Mo Gilligan: But there are times that, like, I think now, I think before I used to really like, Like, oh, you know, I'm trying to put out this video at this time. And what I've learned now is this post. It does not matter. Like, I think that's the one thing I've learned as I've got older, where there used to be this like, oh, aesthetically, I need my huge two. Oh, yeah, no, that moment's gone. I hear you. Whereas what I find out is, you know, when I'm looking at, and I look into metrics, I'm like, rah, boy, like what? 15 % of my audience don't see anything. I've got to do these collab posts, you know? So I think it's just relative.

43:29Mo Gilligan: And I think it's one of those things now is it always feels that everyone's trying to compete with the algorithm because I've got my own friends asking like, hey, bro, like I didn't see you post anything. And I'm like, bro, you're my friend. You didn't see it. That's so crazy. I do think though now it's more, I guess it's like if it is a project or you're on a press run. Yeah. It's just doing as much as everything. Yeah. Because if I try to just be like, I'm just going to post on mine, I'm like, I'll do the podcast, I'll do the interview. And you never know where it's going to go. You know, whether it's someone that's just like, hey, man, like I was reading about this in the paper and that's how I checked it out.

44:09Mo Gilligan: And you're like, oh, rah, I didn't think anyone would, you know, that little piece there in the paper, you're like, who's reading that? I think that's why I started to realise the more that I'd done what I'd done, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? That's incredible. How those small things change. That's good actually to have. So in terms of like your end, right? Where, you know, you're getting achievements, you know, you've got outstanding song collection on it, the Ivan Novellos. Which is mad. Can I speak about that for a minute? Come on, let's speak about this, man. Okay, we're going to talk about this award, yeah.

44:39Mo Gilligan: This is absolutely huge, you know. Thank you. It's not a joke. Because I know about this award. This is a big deal. It is a big deal. And do you know, I appreciate you saying that. And I feel like I'm a very humble person. I don't like speaking much about it or tooting my own horn. even though a lot of my family would be like, come here, you need to show the big boy. But I'm like, that Ivor Novello, yeah, to get like outstanding song collection, that's like the titan of awards as a songwriter, right? It's like Elton John level and like Sting and stuff. And me, I'm in that group of people. So I feel like of all the things, like, yes, I've had Grammys and Brits, which is fantastic.

45:15And I'm so grateful. There's something about that award, like there's certain people I work with, Like Okay Steve Mack Who is someone who You might not know his name But has written and produced Probably every single hit That's come out of this country I'm not even joking He's like The ledge Yeah Steve Mack I think I know that name Okay I think I've heard him Shape of You Ed Sheeran Oh yeah yeah yeah And Endless Hits You go into his studio Yeah He has Ivers Lined up on his Bookcases Like wallpaper He has You know the number one statues That you get They're like little blocks of It's like a little block of metal Yeah yeah yeah You get in this country I've got seven of them I thought I was flexing Okay He has them On a wall this size They're lined up One by one There's millions of them And I Whenever I go to his studio I'm like Okay Okay Like yeah It's the level It's the level Do you know what I mean And I just feel like For me I have so much Further to go But He has so many Ivers That it doesn't even Make sense I have one Iver And I love my Ivor but I want more of them now as well and I sat there the Ivers was just the other day and Elton John came out and Rosalia came out Harry Styles came out and I was so proud of myself to know that I'm in that category of people who have won an Ivor especially as I keep saying like I'm a black girl I'm from Streatham I went to school in Croydon like these are just things that I didn't like put together yeah even when Ray won her Ivor I presented Ray with her Ivor I think it was like a couple years ago maybe and we were just talking because we've obviously been friends for a long time and we're just talking about like how has life happened this way like how have we done this but the one thing I see is it's just it's just hard work I can't tell you enough how many sessions I've hustled my way into I do not feel embarrassment I think that's the key like you have to attack life with no embarrassment because that is what's going to stop you from doing anything like I will slide into people's dms and ask them can I come to a session with you can I do this thing with you a lot of time even now I get air I don't care I don't care you didn't see it then in it that's fine with me I'll ask you again tomorrow and I'll ask you again next week even the other day I saw K Tempest at the Ivers who I'm obsessed with I feel like he's like just such an incredible artist I went straight out to him I said love to work with you The other day I saw Jammer sitting there I was like, Jammer You're incredible Like I'll just go up to you The Merkel man himself I'll just go up to you Because I don't have embarrassment like that You have to seize opportunities I feel like

47:54Mo Gilligan: And I guess it's like When you're in the room It's like, well I can stand there and be bougie Or I can either just Stand there and network And enjoy The craft that I do And it's You know, there's some of the moments That help Pay the bills, you know You going up to someone or someone. And what I've always realised as well, when it comes to networking, is the amount of people that sometimes want to speak to you. Oh my gosh. But because they're in the room, everyone's a bit shy and they don't know. And, you know, and sometimes, you know, people say, oh, there's a time and place. But you're like, well, this is the time.

48:30Mo Gilligan: This is the place. We're all musicians. Hey, what's up, man? Cool, let's connect. It might just be a follow on Instagram. Yeah, man, listen, get my Instagram, get my number. or if you're here and people don't realise how far, that's how it works. It's literally how far. I'd love to tell you that managers in the background are making it happen. I feel like it's less and less the managers now. But it's the connection of, hey, what's up? Yeah, cool. Listen, when you come to London, let's go out for a meal or something, man. All right, cool. Well, listen, I got your number. Yeah, man, I'll shout you.

49:00Mo Gilligan: That is literally how it happens. And it sounds bizarre because in your head, you're like, no, no way. It was, it was, it's like, nah. But do you see why it's so important then for us to help people come through? Because how are they meant to have that? That's why I do, I do feel why people are like, oh my God, it's so hard to get into industry. Because you're right. It's just like all those degrees of separation getting smaller when you're working your way up. It's so hard. But yeah, I feel like anyone can do it. Anyone can have it. You just have to have that mentality about you. It's the tunnel vision, isn't it?

49:30It's the tunnel vision.

49:31Mo Gilligan: I always use the horse with the blinkers on. Yeah, so do I. If that horse has the blinkers on, it will just go there. 100%. And I use the analogy of, like, Michael Jackson wasn't seeing, wasn't watching what Stevie Wonder was doing. He wasn't. Not only did he not have Instagram to go on, but, like, Prince made a point of not checking Michael's shit. They were just doing their own thing. You're so right. Yeah. How do you start to look at, like...

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50:28Mo Gilligan: Where you are now, but where you want to get to within the next, I don't know. five, 10, 15 years. I've won everything. Because you've got some amazing achievements and you've done some incredible things. And you've come from a place which, look, I'm not saying that, you know, because the whole, no one ever makes it out there. Like we do. Do you know what I mean? It's like, let's not do that. Yeah. We do. But we also know that like, sometimes it can be that the odds are stacked up against us mainly because it's like, you know what? I don't see a lot of people in this space. You know, if you go to the, you know, you're going to these events and you're looking around.

51:07Mo Gilligan: And the first time even I went, I was like, brother, man didn't really hear, you know? Like I'm there, but I'm like, brother, you're not really here, man. And I think that for me was the realisation of the job I do and feeling like, oh no, like my friends are here. But when you go to the event, they're like, no, it's you plus one guest. And you're like, okay, I really don't see people who look like me and sound like me and are from the same place as me and that's when i think the realization is like oh okay uh it's a bit more work to do here because i'm the person that everyone's looking at for so what do we do diversity you you're in you're like no they say i'm not the one bro i'm not the one bro stop everyone stop while you're doing it you think solved it by having me here.

52:02Mo Gilligan: You're having a laugh. Just leave on your own. But the thing is, do you know what my mum always said? Because my mum is incredible. She works so hard and she has an MBE, okay, for business. She was incredible at her job. Shout out Mumsy. And she always would say to me, Camille, as a black girl, you're going to face a lot of positive discrimination and negative, but positive also and use it, use it for all it's worth. and carve that space because it does make me laugh sometimes yes a lot of people of color will know this very well that you are chosen because of your skin color they're trying to fulfill a quota cool if we're gonna fulfill that quota then let me I'm gonna do this so well I'm gonna shit on everyone then how about that because that's the only choice we have a lot of the time so I don't even I don't even get mad when I see that Tommy and I have that a lot like sometimes Tommy and I go to like, especially, oh my gosh, in the car world.

52:58Car world is mad, you know.

53:00Mo Gilligan: Yeah, I don't know. The car world is, it's a different, it's a different universe though. No, it's bad. Like there's just no diversity and little to no diversity. Even look at like Formula One. It's so hard, like not seeing anyone. When I go to events with Tommy, Tommy's typically probably the only black person there. a lot of the time. So I feel like if that's the case, cool, we're going to show up. We're going to keep going. I know he will turn off as well on the maddest whip. But they won't know that's his whip. They do now. They do now. But you know, they'll be like, oh, you're okay. What are you working with, man?

53:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this mad thing still. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 100%. You're not doing prints

53:47Mo Gilligan: or something. How you got one of these? I can't get one of these. Can I tell you a story? The other day, right? Because Tommy and I, people don't realise when it comes to the cars, yeah. It's definitely a partnership with me and Tommy. We've done this. We've just been very strategic. We've pooled our money together. Some points we've done it when we were like, that was a lot of money. We've made lots of losses on cars. Okay. But we're finally in a spot now, I think, where he's so smart and he's kind of very good at foretelling trends and stuff. So we're in a good spot. That's not to say it can still go like that Yeah yeah yeah But anyway We're now noticing We're being invited to different things And into different like rooms And we went into Goodwood Festival of Speed I mean Come on I don't know what's going on You know that good to say that I don't know what's going on But like there was We went to a dealership the other day We were buying a car And shout out Sammy from Ferrari He took us into this like secret room Where all these crazy wealthy people They store cars I didn't even know this was a thing It's huge right I don't want to give too much I'm not sure I'm allowed to be talking about this But in this room Was like almost a billion pounds worth of cars I'm not even joking with you Ferrari, Ferrari, Ferrari Where people You could go in there And look at a Ferrari And it would be like That's a low spec That's like That's nothing And I'm like This Ferrari looks incredible This Ferrari is nothing worth That Ferrari is worth like 10 It's that level of cars And they're just sitting there Just sitting there The owners don't even touch them Oh right But they don't drive them It's just asset cars That just sit there And I'm telling you The space It was like the space of a football pitch It was huge I'm probably exaggerating a bit But I was surrounded by all these cars Yeah yeah And I'm walking through this room And I'm like Oh my god Is this what people are doing out here It's a different level Like Jamiroquai Who I'm only We've bought one of his cars Which is an incredible incredible achievement because I'm a massive fan of him but also the legend he's just he's signed the back of the boot for me that car's never moving from my house yeah I'm just in awe come to find out Jamiroquai has about 40 50 60 supercars like this just quietly chilling appreciating so it's just like this world that I'm I feel like when you ask me like where do I see myself I just there's so much I want to achieve I want to get into different businesses is like I'm starting a children's brand with Tommy, which we're so excited about.

56:22I would love to tell you more about this. But like there's music, there's everything. I just want to do so much with my life. But I definitely as a black woman want to be in spaces where I don't see any of myself. Just like what you said, I can't stand it when I'm the only one. But if I'm going to be the only one, I'm going to do it well. That's how I see it.

56:44Mo Gilligan: Well, you've got to think like there's probably a young black girl right now who's on you know i mean straight up high street who likes music do you know i mean going to the chicken shop going to the chicken shop and is listening to your story but also realizing what is out there for them do you know i mean when it comes to the world of like you're not just a singular sick you know you don't just sing do you know what i mean you yeah you sing but you create music you've won awards you've got hits to back them up but you also have in the background of your passion projects as well. Do you know what I mean?

57:19Mo Gilligan: And you're working alongside your husband where you're able to say like, well, we're going to buy a Jamiroquois car. Do you know what I mean? That's a different flex in itself. Do you know what I mean? There's one thing buying a Ferrari, but I'll be like, we're going to buy the Jamiroquois one. Do you know what I mean? But I think it's definitely like, you know, like when people, you know, if you've been harvesting long enough and, you know, you get to enjoy the fruits of your labour and you guys have done that for years, do you know what I mean? But people will only ever see the fruits, do you know what I mean?

57:51Mo Gilligan: On the tree and they'll be like, oh, cool, they only got that because it's summertime harvest, do you know what I mean? Don't see all the losses. No one sees the losses, no one sees the crying, no one sees the stress. They don't see it. The letters were like, hey man, hey, the rent's due, you know? Hey, whoa. People don't see that. The amount of time Tommy and I have juggled on that level. Or are we going to be able to pay our mortgage? That happened a couple of times. We were like, shit. But then, you know, also at the same time, you're just like, please, that's just it. It works out. You know, when it becomes a, it's not a champagne problem, but you're like, this is a problem.

58:27Mo Gilligan: Yeah. But it's also like, it can be fixed. Always, always, 100%. Money really does come and go. And I feel like you can only see that when you're in a position of, if you've seen it come and you've seen it go, You start to just like have that attachment That's a fade for you And now for me it's just about Trying to keep it consistent But doing something that I love Yeah Do you know what else I would say as well I was just thinking when we were talking earlier right You see now like There's so much opportunity for everyone to just Okay you can go online like you said And you can vlog or you can do this or whatever I feel like now more than ever then It's really important to have a point of difference A real point like okay When you came through I remember being so fascinated With what you did Because you would You just had this like Fearlessness about your comedy Like you weren't Like okay The skits you were doing Even like putting on a wig And just doing your thing yeah It was just against the grain Oh thank you And it was so You were fearless with it And that's why it was so funny Because you just didn't Take yourself seriously Like a lot of your friends Or people Other people in your Demographic Might have taken themselves Really seriously And not being able To have that fun with it And I was messing around You exactly Of buying wigs But that's what we loved Crazily And that was your point For me Your point of difference was Your fearlessness I feel like now Say for example I was a young girl And I'm trying to be an influencer I feel like a lot of people Aren't trying to find A different way of doing it I just see like I see a million There's so many influencers How are you gonna Separate yourself And make yourself Step through that That's how you have to do it But it's kind of It lays testament to what You've done in it Where you say I'm gonna go and talk to the person and I'm going to go and DM them because I'm not afraid of embarrassment.

1:00:13Mo Gilligan: And it goes to what you were saying when I was joking around in my house and I'm like, oh, I've got this character. But what would really make it funny is a stupid wig of a guy who works in Zara. And I'll, you know, put a blazer on and maybe this might be funny. Maybe it's not. But I'm not really embarrassed because I've gone on stage and done stand up and someone say, you're not funny. And you're like, yeah, cool. well you can suck your mum and that gets the biggest laugh ever so like it's what you're saying about like that fearless of fearlessness of embarrassment you have to just put it to the side do you know what I mean like I probably get embarrassed about things I shouldn't really get embarrassed when I first started driving and I had to parallel park with cars behind me that is different level now I'm embarrassed because I'm like everyone's looking at me like go on go then park it you're like oh oh I'm stressed man the embarrassment that comes for me is going in the lift and getting out of the wrong floor and now i've got to pretend oh oh oh oh it's not ground okay let me go back in yeah nothing worse than that you step out you're like the life embarrassment now is those things do you know what i mean so all those other things they're gonna come and they're gonna go but like go into an event hey what's up nice to meet you man love your stuff man hey listen i'd love to You know if you've got shows I'd love to jump on If possible Like we should work together You're like cool They're either going to say yes or no Well they're not Exactly But I think that embarrassment is You need that You need to put that to the side If you're going to go to a network event And see your idol You're like this is either going to be great That's so true Or it's going to be terrible But it might be a fun terrible story It might be incredible To tell everyone else Do you know what I mean Hey I met this person What was he like He was the right arsehole You know So yeah That's the story in itself Do you know what I mean Like, that's so true.

1:02:03And even when we post, if it doesn't go anywhere, then no one saw it.

1:02:09Mo Gilligan: No, someone sees it.

1:02:13Mo Gilligan: Someone sees it. No, but no one, no. I feel like no one saw it. Because I don't see it. You're like, wrong way. Oh, I like. Swat it back, you know. Might want to archive that, bro. But I don't want to keep archived. That's the thing. I hate that we have to live that way. I just want to post and not to worry like hate that side of it sorry it's been such a pleasure to have you on the pod honestly man oh thank you it really really has man I've loved it so thank you so much for coming on and this has been your beginning middle and end so thank you so much man thank you I really enjoyed you man hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars.

1:03:04Mo Gilligan: And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated. And we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace. Your phone is your lifeline. Calling your kid to say goodnight, waiting on a job callback, or just sending a meme to your best friend when it's been that kind of day. Wherever life takes you, the TextNow app keeps you connected for free. Get a real phone number, unlimited talk and text, and 5G data for your favorite apps. All for$0 a month. No fixed contracts, no hidden fees, no panic when bills pile up.

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