Estelle!

0:00Mo Gilligan: Yes, what's good people? My name is Mo Gilligan and if you're listening right now, you are tuned in to my podcast, The Beginning, Middle and End. Now, I'm very excited for the guest that we have this week. She's a homegrown talent who kicked off her career by winning a Mo Bo Award. That's right. She hails from West London and she even went on to do a Grammy Award winning collab with one of the biggest tunes of this era. We get into absolutely everything. Her moving career, her moving to the US and also her brand new album, Stay Alter. So please, welcome to the podcast, Estelle. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

0:44Mo Gilligan: It's a long time, isn't it? I can't lie, I was a bit starstruck when they said you was coming on the podcast. I said, Estelle, you know. Come on, bro. I mind my business. Listen, when American Boyer comes out, I'll be grieving, boy. it's a pleasure one to um just like see your success across the pond do you know what i mean thank you like it's been great to see like from the artist you was when you first came out yeah to where you are now and the fact that you're you're living out there we have a lot of friends in common and stuff like this and even have you on the pod it was like uh was like right still yeah so yeah man but you come you come from major humble beginnings like you know you're from west london from hammersmith yep as well um so what's your background because is it it's west african descent in a sense of so senegal sierra leone and grenada trinidad ah yes yeah so you got the the real west african but then you got the small island caribbean in there as well so what was it like growing up in west london early the early days man well you know grenadians we all live in like super west we're all like the whole families between grove and bush like everyone in Grenada is between Grove and Bush.

1:51100%. Everybody from Grenada came and settled in those two streets.

1:54Mo Gilligan: No one's in Chiswick. Nobody's in Chiswick. Stucked right at like Palancewick Grove. Yeah, man. It's like right there. But like my family was, we're big and we're close-knit. Okay. You know, like, there's like nine kids in my immediate. As at periods of time there were six of us. So we did the grown six and then the three younger girls came along and it's like they're the younger ones who had a life half in London half out of London because I became famous so you know family moved out of the area West Kent and so it's good though it's like we're like Insta friends you know I will say that was the vibe I never met my real dad until I was like 17 and then 23 it was a two part series and then him and my mum got back together when I was 23 and then they got married when I was 33 so life has been interesting in general and in all this time I've been making music I've been an artist it's been a time so in terms of your influence because you've got the West African influence and you've got that small island Caribbean influence and what I've always noticed about especially West London because I grew up in South London West London you guys always had good trainers you always had good trainers there was a store where's the I think it's in Shepherd's Bush Market Global Sports Global Sports you used to come and buy trainers yeah yeah I used to have a look I used to have a look I didn't say the prices were pricing but one thing I think West London's always reminded me of Global sports now I'm bugging yeah yeah yeah like and they had the crepes back then that was your first place they were the first place to have vapes yeah but what I'd always notice about West London West London always had a sense of like you guys always had good trainers there was always like people dressed really really well you see that with people that have come out of West London yes you know you look at like Mikey and the guys at Trapstar and all that kind of stuff.

3:49Mo Gilligan: But there was always this like togetherness. Then this is just me observing from someone from South. There seemed that a togetherness in a sense of everyone knew each other. So when like, you know, you go to Carnival, West London were always posted up. And you're like, what? Well, it was in Carnival. It was like Carnival's in West London. Yeah, but it was like, okay, for example, Peckham and Brixton, if Carnival was in South, wouldn't really be together. Do you know what I mean? And this is a hypothetical. I don't want no one on the pod like no but there was because my cousin I just mean in a sense for what we would observe it just felt like West London had a bit more togetherness obviously it is in it's in West London but there would be everyone from West was all there and I don't know if it was carnival I'm just again I'm just speculating whether it felt like people said look there's a slide of differences because I think it was that yeah but the influence of like you know like carnival like the Caribbean community when you go up to like a bit more further like that northwest you've got halston massive caribbean community there as well yeah um so how did that start shaping your your love for music at early age well i know like you mentioned carnival and you got to think about when and how it started in notting hill in labrick grove and bush in like those areas and when people would come over it wasn't to brixton necessarily it was to west london yeah like that's where the houses were where they could get houses yes my granny moved there.

5:16And so you had African people living right next to West Indians, teaching each other, showing each other, moving with each other. My mum always tells me like, look, you had Jamaican cousins before you was born. I was like, I did? You know, like, so she knew Patois, she knew how to make rice and peas long before we came along, right? But she also, you know, my granny was like, you're going to know cassava leaf, you're going to know plasas, you're going to know okra stew, you know, like, that's how, this is us though. Like, just be clear. so it's just all a mix up and I think that like the music side of it came when my mum, my granny my mum and my aunties and all of them they would just have it was a standard in the house was music you could do whatever you you move around wherever there's something playing I remember that distinctly as a child and if there was no music playing every day around 4 o 'clock when I came in from school the man upstairs would play his piano I just said it was the man upstairs could have been a woman, I don't know they were just upstairs and there was this piano sound playing like a beautiful classical jazz something piano playing for like two hours every single day except for Sunday

6:23Mo Gilligan: okay right so there's a recurring sound in my head yeah of this piano guy and then there's Nina Simone and there's my granny who sometimes play Frank Sinatra and then you know like the old school white people music that she came to assimilate to and she came in you know and then she would play my casa and casa like in all the different and it was just in our house then my mom started dating my stepdad and they had a sound him and his friend martin had a sound and they would go out and he had his red fan and they would take their speakers and go play people's parties so the reggae was a thing like dancehall and solca was a thing because everyone hosted house parties yeah you know um so that was just my life like when you look at lovers rock the film steve mcqueen yeah that was me yeah like down to the grenada and the africa like the pictures on the wall the kids hiding on the stairs we didn't have is in the room looking out it was me and my sisters and brothers big people conversations that's what was happening we had we had like little uh little stalls when we've been to dinner my mom would be like go get the stall come and sit down yeah and we took our fast sales and got the stalls and then got beats like right after like what are you doing like i was joking like what do you think you are go to bed um so it's all that it was really that like it's wild looking at that movie because it was like oh shit this is really my mom and dad this is really our life crazy and your aunt did your aunt play a massive part in terms of r &b yeah like a nominal role because she was the cool 80s r &b auntie you know the one that was like yeah me and sharon are going to the club like yeah she was that auntie and she's like hot girl auntie she had like luther van dros and uh alexander o 'neill was her favorite stevie wonder who i end up singing with maybe when i was like 32 for the first time i sang her favorite song with him on stage horden said videos like look i'm singing with stevie it's your favorite song there's a whole thing you know that was a real moment man there's been so many moments of like yeah god you love me god you love me so if your aunt playing such a big part in terms of especially bringing i guess bringing that soul yeah sounds because the only correlation i could ever make is my sisters when they would go out they go to like some of the clubs and they use it as the old school garage yeah they go to some of the clubs i don't know equinox or uh yeah imperial gardens in camberwell yeah i feel like i'm your sister yeah yeah um and they go to you and that that's that was their scene yeah so it was almost them coming back i was like what's this what's this music like wow and i feel like you know yeah you know that influence of like aunties or especially when there's a bigger age gap because me and my sisters the age gap is eight and nine years yeah so when they were like so i'm 37 yeah so when they were going outside i was in I was in school essentially um but I always feel like it's someone like an uncle or someone that lets you hear a sound and you're like oh what's this man yeah for life yeah that's how we pass down our stories our recipes isn't it isn't it yeah we do it yeah yeah yeah that's what they do they like they bring in something that they're excited about play around the house dance around the house like my mom was into like sister's legend and pointing sisters okay that was her that was her like three degrees and that was her growing up yeah yeah my uncle loved all big daddy all the hip-hop okay we were jungle garage hip-hop soul r &b we respected it all and loved it and they played it in the house but we were playing swv and jodeci and you know and then as we get older you know and then there's a lot of british artists we listen to everyone from goldie runny size and all of them too that led into garage and all the different mcs so like it's it's just i think it's just you carry what you carry yeah but you carry your roots with you does that make sense you carry what you heard growing up with you and that's what this whole new album's for me about because it's always interesting like growing up i like the music that i would have to do chores to was real old school reggae.

10:47Mo Gilligan: Yep. My dad's a Rasta man. So he's, he's nigh a bingy reggae. Do you know what I mean? Like stuff that you could only ever get on cassettes. Yep. And then I remember my uncle, he was playing jungle once. And I was like, what is this? This, I shouldn't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't be listening to this. Blasphemous. Are you sure Jesus? Yeah. I was like, what's this man? Is this right? Sub, sub bass, and that's where I felt like did they tell you it was devilish? no but it was only he was I'd never heard it again after that until I got a bit older and I was like oh this is the stuff that my uncle was playing in your teens like you worked at Deerreel Records Deerreel was in off Carnaby Street I think Noel Street is a street owned by a guy called Pete Reel Pete was getting over the business and by the time after I'd left he sold it to Tony Tago and the crew and they moved it to Carnaby Street.

11:47And it continued, Tony and Vincent, two amazing black entrepreneurs. And they moved it to Carnaby Street and they kept the legacy going for a while. But I was in the original one. Yeah. And that was a whole, that was a movie.

12:02Mo Gilligan: Yeah. I was like, I don't like to say like, I was the only girl, but there weren't too many other women in the scene that worked at the stores at that time. Yeah. and it was like every artist you could think of from maybe 98 to night 2001 would had to come through there yeah yeah yeah it was a rite of passage yeah if you was an artist coming to london or you was a lot an artist from the uk yeah because they have that they have their ciphers yeah yeah i i would go there if a friend of mine used to do music i didn't know there was an original store because my my when i first started going there i was around about let's say i don't 18 so going to central if we ever wanted to buy like you know you're like i want to get an official album yeah you'd go to the massive hmb tower records as well tower records was quite cool because they had that little thing where you could you could scan it and listen to the music so we would be like yeah i don't think we're gonna get that one but you might get the odd mixtape in there it was an experience going to like physically buy music yeah i met so many good people just browsing the aisles like it was like one of my best friends we met the night before at that club and i was just like oh you're a cool guy and then the very next day he happened to be browsing in the same section i was like did i just see you yesterday like it was like and we've been friends for years like oh is it at hmv yeah yeah i think deal real was special though like yeah because i think this was at a time when youtube youtube slash maybe myspace had just come out So anyone sharing videos, that was the platform.

13:37Mo Gilligan: And I remember YouTube at the time, I think Jump Off was almost like one of the early platforms where people would do battle rapping on the street. They'd have obviously like their live event as well. You had people like Benny Scars hosting it. I'm wowing because I'm just remembering like, you said the Jump Off. Oh my God, shout out to Big Tony. Early Jump Off days, man. Shout out to Tony. Big up Benny Scars. Oh my goodness. that's the day's manager. Yeah, yeah. So it's funny whenever I see him I'm like, man, not about you back in the day, you know. He was hosting the battle raps. He was trying to be a rapper.

14:16Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know, yeah. But it's like, I feel like that early, that early scene must have been so interesting because we would only ever go there to sometimes get records but it was like, I think it was every Friday that they have like a kind of sci-fi open mic you have a dj there and they tried to do it in other shops in the area but no it never worked it was it was you had to get there early put your name down if you're good you can get a little touch of the mic yeah it's a quick 32 yeah um not 32 yeah quick 32 it'll be it's always a quick 16 yeah but you know like when it's like good you They're just like, pass the mic and someone's like, nah, bro.

14:58Mo Gilligan: I'm here, I'm here. And I just want to see Liberties and they're looking at me and my degrees. Riggedy raps. You've got to open up your third eye. All right, all right. Chill out. There's a lot of riggedy raps going on back there. The conscious. So much conscious. I'm just speaking from the mind. But like, what was it like for you the early, because I could imagine if you're in college and you work in a place like that, people that are coming in and out of the shop, that must have been such a cool place to work in because one if you're doing music anyway yeah you know you get to meet people but also just being in in in the environment you know it's exciting like when i look at it now i was like it's exciting it was just like oh shit like you know like every artist you think of is going to come through there anticipation wasn't that they were going to come it was just like i might get to see common i'm like you know and i did i got to see and i know them i knew them all before i put out any albums yeah so the phasing this like they're being like super excited to meet rappers and stuff with me i don't care like i look at people as humans and that's where i got my grounding for that because i feel like i met so many more people who were just really much better humans just being in and around that than the artist i would meet sometimes you know especially with musicians at that time where i feel like hip-hop was really like it just came after that kind of i wouldn't say that that i say the second wave of gangster rap with yeah you know 50 cent and rappers like that but you also had this great movement with other rappers like your lupe fiascos and you know kanye west commons that that came as a result of the most deaths and the qualities and early Carmen in some village like the Lupe and them came as a result of them existing you know because what I liked about Deal Real you'd get a mixture of both that would go to the store so you would get like Talib Kweli at the store with Mos Def and then next week Dipset are there quite literally quite literally right so that's the thing it was a great leveler and it was just a good time I think and it allowed British rap to me and just the culture of british rap fostered um it gave people space oh yeah like and it influenced i say gave people space and they influenced the idea that and this is across the world influenced the idea that you could stand it doesn't have to just be your street corner in your area in your hood you're going to london and people are going to give you the same respect but they're also going to get their bars off right artists respected artists in that space and in that moment and it took it so we took they took that back this wasn't some like i'm just gonna go over there and colonize and act like the big star like you had to really rap because right next to you had the guy was like yeah that's cute that your dip set but like also wait i'm me though yeah and so it was really and you'll have someone who yeah you're like you'll have like i don't know like skinny man in there or clash in a coffin there right you're like okay yeah okay no he really has bars and then he's rapping next to your big american whoever yeah so it was a leveler it was very much that and you had to respect us because also no one was pussy so no one was out here acting like oh i'm not gonna do my best rap so i'm not gonna you can't talk to me any kind of way either yeah you know like so it was a level of respect like road respect that they didn't a lot of people didn't think that they had to come get but once they came and saw they were like oh oh okay i think what i also lacked with like a real deal is that you'll see people that you might have seen on like a channel you at the time or mtv bass yeah and you'd only ever see them in a music video and then you're there and you're like that's black twang and tommy t in them man rod is actually real people yeah like who was there anyone there that you see that you was like all right you just because i no that's the thing that's the weird part of like being in it and then being behind the scenes of it like working at the shop yeah i um i don't get starstruck very often was it good to network when you was there though because it must have been great i think i think it's amazing as an artist it must have been so good to be in a place but i wasn't even thinking networking i was more just like collaboration yeah yeah yeah oh my god i can talk to you about working on a record at some point and even if it's not it's just good to have music conversation and learn from people who are four steps ahead of where you are and where you want to be yeah so that was a that was a good turn up and it wasn't even intentional i walked into dear real trying to buy a mason Mason Cameron's Horse and Carriage oh rotted 357 on the flip on the bass side we gotta rise get it to the top yeah 357 put it on the flip and I was like I want that vinyl I need that that's a cheat man and he was trying to play me like real deep cuts wriggity raps and I was just like I want those but I want this yeah yeah yeah if you know you know yeah so then fast forward a little bit yeah you then win a MOBA award for best newcomer yeah um crazy what was that feeling like because 1980 yeah as a track yeah still one of those tracks that it it it gets played obviously now to this day but like it's one of those tracks obviously it's lasted the test of time yeah but there are some tracks within UK music that you always remember where you are it gives you a sense of like i remember when i first heard this but when i hear it now it still feels new but it's so um what's the word i'm looking for it's like you know when something feels marinated within uk music you can play it any time of the year it's up there with like your black boys it's up there with for me anyway i think like when you think of those uk staple tracks you know black boys like 21 seconds 1980 they're this uh swiss cry there's a there's a there's there's songs in there that you hear you're like yeah i remember and then it was also at a time where like music videos were big but also if you grew up in that environment we all have our version of a 1980 you know what i mean and there are also parts where even when when i listened to it i to it recently and i was like right was was was men really decomposed yes like yes which is that's a question really a body that's that question comes up yes and my and let me tell you how hood it was my mom had to go downstairs and clean it is it they wouldn't come around and take his body quick enough and my mom was like i have little kids i didn't know and they were like well we can't get there to to clean up the mess like he's he had that so you know we're africans and we're West Indians and we care about our elders.

21:47Yeah. And so my mum would just check, do wellness checks on these two old men that live downstairs opposite each other. Like, old white men, you know, who knows what they did and how they moved through life. But they were very, you know, to themselves and grumpy. And my mum would just make sure they were alive. Just on some like, God, I don't know why you put me here, but I have a home and there's these two men and I'm going to be kind because I need to show my kids how to be kind. And we were always like, ew, they stink. walk through the hallway being kids right but but she would always check and so it was a thing in her head to like yeah no no i haven't seen him for a while and it's a smell coming from downstairs i don't know so she called and they finally came and when he found his body he was absolutely decomposing this cat see one of them had cats yeah because you said the cats die eating the cats die and the house starts to reek the shit was not my mom was like oh yeah no um but they wouldn't clean the house yeah so my mum had to go in there and clean the house to make sure that the smell was gone so that we wouldn't it was crazy yeah when those things happen though like because i feel like there's a part of you where that is super traumatic for sure yeah yeah super traumatic but like there's something amazing more than my mum though yeah no no big up mumsy for

23:07Mo Gilligan: She was in her mid-30s doing that. Like, what? Think about who you are in your mid-30s if you go into clean up an old man. But like, there's something amazing about how you turn that into music. Obviously, it's your experience, but you turned it into a track that we all felt that we lived that experience. Like, if you've grown up within an estate, I'm not saying we all have our story of our neighbour dying and the cats eating. but we have our stories of trauma that we normalize in a way where it's jokes yeah like someone will ask she was like oh my god like was it like I had to I just had to ask I was like so was it in your dead body or like like I knew there was but I want to hear falsify that for the cameras yeah but like the way you was able to turn your life experience in a way that meant like you know you're rapping on the track you've got the strings in there as well but you're able to share experiences moments that are inspiring moments that are traumatic telling your story but doing it in a way where we all sat there and was like yeah i've got my 1980 do you know what i mean mine my i'm a little bit younger but i'm a lot younger but mine's 1988 but isn't it we've all got our version of that but it was amazing to like see how you was able to make music from your experience and also at a time where you're like that's what i'm that's what i'm showing to the world yeah do you know what i mean i think because that was when it was risky but i think you know what it was i feel like music at that time like uk black music i felt like we was really showing our money in a way where some of the artists it was and look if that's what you have show it you know i mean no one's watching pockets here but you know we're on mtv bass and we we have mtv bass yes we have our channel you yeah but we also have our mtv bass a little bit and to have that as your debut track one of your debut tracks was like oh yeah oh yeah she's not here like doing all the we wait down to her bum and she ain't out here being like yeah so how did it feel in getting you know a MOBA award as a best newcomer well thank you for saying that first of all what I'm getting from that is that you said it was just different and it was something else but it was related to what people were actually going through instead of pitching up to what we wanted to be it was like this is where we are and that's the truth and to me there's something about the truth that I don't care what stage of life you are in.

25:34I don't know. I don't, none of it matters when you're telling the truth. You know, even if you haven't been through that kind of madness. Yeah. Everyone related to certain things. I grew up in the 90s in a four bedroom house. No one, there's not many people that grew up with their own bedroom in the 80s by themselves. Even if you were super rich, you had cousins that had to come around and fucking share your shit with you. You know, it's just, it's a lifestyle in a way that we culture thing that people lived in the UK.

26:07Mo Gilligan: You just knew you were sharing your bedroom. Just someone, someone came round and you had to give your things up. So to me, it was just like, well, this is the truth. You know, this is my truth. And also a lot of black people I know and brown people and Chinese, like wherever, or Asian people. everybody has gone through a version of this with their family if you're an immigrant to the uk and even if you were born and raised here and this is your thing you have gone through a version of 1980 so for me at the time i was just like my immediate thought was like holy shit like holy shit i'm so tired right now yeah because i had to promote i promoted that record i didn't just say they will do your thing i went to i was talking on radios in west shropshire they had me in the car everywhere to talk to everyone shout out to having podcasts and streaming and video clips because that talking in a radio like that radio station run in the beginning in the early 2000s because you had singular radio stations singular it's not like now it's dab pirate in the car you are going to talk to shake hands and kiss every single baby okay yeah yeah And I did that.

27:19So coming out the other end of it, like, oh, we got nominated for a movie. What? I snuck into my first MOBO with my friend who did PR.

27:27Mo Gilligan: Oh, really? Snuck in. Yeah. And I was just there, like, she was like, come, come, come. Like, really snuck in the back door. So to go and be on the stage and receive an award maybe five years after, six years after it started was, there's a God somewhere, for sure. There's a God and he loves me. How did that recognition? He loves me. How did the recognition feel? because you know i feel like we never do it to win awards i feel like we always do it for the love of waking up in the morning and you know i want to sing this song to a crowd i want to go student i want to work with this artist but um how was that recognition at that stage of your career how did it feel did it feel like it felt validated yeah yeah it felt validated but when people say we don't do it for the awards it's it's not that's true but i feel like the awards help broaden the vision and give you more to look for yeah and give more people give you give more people eyeballs on your business and what you're telling them i'm here to do as a as an artist so you kind of want the award but that's not the sole reason yeah that's like three percent of it and when it comes it's a beautiful validation um i think at that point i was just very much like ma see it worked see i was i was right to be in the house and i know you cussed me out about not having money a lot of the time it's a lot but i got it yeah i figured it out and i'm grateful for every car trip every person you told me it's okay go you can do it i know you're tired but go i know that extra video that you did it feels pointless right now i know the extra interview you did feels pointless right now but yeah you're good it's good you're supposed to be doing this yeah you know in a world where they it wasn't the thing not for no skinny black girl from london who i don't get it was someone said that to me every other day i don't get it why are you bothering why are you trying why even do it to my face was that you doing music or was it for your sound all of it really why are you even doing music like like you don't exist in this world like why would you even try there's a lot of that to my face that i've had to like nothing to do with me that's your projection yeah and i had that mentality as a child as a kid like that's nothing to do with me that's all you you don't think you can do it yeah so you know and it would say that to me and you gotta consider and i tell people this now i understand everyone's journey but watch how you speak to young people about their visions and their dreams like you're not going to get in the way of it but it can move them out of purpose yeah and you never want to do that because then that karma comes back for you baby oh yeah man it's a wild time when they're head of the record label and they're like i remember you you crossed my dream man oh man so how's that how's them drugs working out with you and your family this is good you're all right you still gotta jump over there so when you say people would essentially dim your like because that's what it feels like in some ways they would attempt to yeah um was that from also like you know the higher the higher up in within music as well no that okay that's a standard thing i think and i think it was you take it out of music you start realizing it's a human condition yeah people project and they give you what they fear the most they give you um they tend to give you the thing that they're scared of going to get because if they can't do it why should you yeah and i stopped focusing on them people you know you get it across all the boards and even when people are helping you it can be like you're doing it but do you really think you can do that this is like you're helping me get there how are you telling me to shut the lights out now like i'm we're here uh learn how to move those people out of my space and i've learned that it's also a reflection of me so somewhere there must be a little doubt so i need to go work on that doubt and I turn it inwards a lot of the time it's whatever I ask because you made your move over into going over to the States and then in 2008 you bring out your second album Shine you know you work with Kanye West in LA where you live now and the reason why I ask is because so many black Brits go over to LA because whenever you you know you get a different appreciation than you do over here.

31:56Mo Gilligan: Yeah, I know. You're back and forth. Yeah, yeah. But I think the reason why I asked because we were speaking just a minute ago about your music and your sound and you saying, you know, I knew my sound was different. But then also if you've got the execs dimming your light somewhat, did it feel like as soon as you went across the pond, it was like, ah. This is like. Yeah. Wow Well physically in LA It's bright Oh yeah yeah It's lovely man So start there Come on Runyon Canyon boy For no reason For no With a Chanel bag Because these are my things Okay These are the things I have My love Yeah I know Madness I don't do Runyon anymore It's a lot It's a lot in Runyon It's big isn't everyone It's wild Like and I realised That that was there I was like I'm never going back there Like we're going to have This personal training You can come to my house Yeah man No I don't think I don't want to paint a picture like oh they just came and it was just all lights and glory because there was people are people yeah wherever you go but I will say that it was um a measure of openness and like okay well let's see if you can do it I go get like do it down and when you once you do it there's less of a uh energy of like oh all right that was good all right well stop now like there's less of that then there is um all right well shit I know a friend who knows a friend who can build something they there there's a more of an energy we can build on this if you get in the right headspace then there is an energy of like all right we've done it sit down you know which was what i was facing at that time here is different now yeah i'm seeing so much more success and it makes me happy because it's worth it it's worth the sacrifice of me physically just not being near my family but i'm built for this and they're built for this like this is our journey as a family so it's lovely to see a lot of artists having the success getting the success getting the praise, getting the money getting the levels, getting all the accolades that we ought to get and don't have to leave home like shout out to the internet too don't have to leave their family can do what they need to do and make a living at this and it's not an anomaly it's a weirdo thing on the back of what people like yourself has built you know you've you've made it a thing to go over to another place and expand into the world your sound is recognized and it's a it's a uk sound and it's recognized that helps the ecosystem of what black british entertainment is yes there's uk entertainment but there's also black british entertainment that it's a world thing yeah yeah yeah of course that's one thing i'm really happy about and I don't take it lightly that it was just me.

34:42There are groups and there are artists that were out there way before me that set the pace, that still tour successfully and that really opened people up to like, no, no, no. Nenna Cherry was like another crossover that happened around the world. Moni Love is another one that was around the world. And they opened the idea that, oh, it's not just tea and crumpets though they still say that and I still want to rev people in the forehead when they say that but it's not just you know we exist as

35:18Mo Gilligan: black people around the world it's not just oh you know a type of black person or a type of British person it's like no there are black people with parents from the West Indies and Africa and we do this and we are fly and we're amazing and and we you know we turn up too yeah like this is our thing and you come low-key every decade steal our sound take it back every day think about that shit from the 90s the 80s and we we do it to each other yeah man and so my thing is we are here we exist you know i think you know i think with the geography of of la is the East Coast because it's obviously closer to the Caribbean.

36:06Mo Gilligan: There's always been also, I feel like when you go to the East Coast of America, they have that connection of what is maybe going on in, I don't know, in France or Paris or London or Berlin. There's always a bit more of a closer connection. The West Coast is just by itself. They're just like, listen, we do our ticket. Bay Area, that's us. But let me tell you, the Bay Area love London. they love the UK the Bay Area to me is like Labrador Grove they've had a club called Yoshi's and anyone that's been out to LA in the Bay Area knows Yoshi's there are British groups that go there and perform standardly and pack it out and sell out and do their thing I've been there and performed and we performed at festivals when I tell you the crowd was from one end of Oxford Street to the other and I could see the crowd was just endless and they was all jamming to records I put out in like 2009.

37:02Oh yeah. And I'm here like, you really?

37:05Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are fans. Okay, I need to go to the Bay then. Go to the Bay, go to Oakland. Okay, yes, yeah, yeah. Go to Oakland, you're going to have a time. Because I guess we're more referring to like West Hollywood, isn't it? Yeah. People go to Equinox and they get like a 15 pound coffee. Don't say you hate LA if you ain't travel past the 10 is what I'm talking about. I don't even know if they hate 15 pound coffees in that part of LA, but they're expensive. At this point, shit. Yeah, man. When you go to that, what's that one? That restaurant on the strip. Which one? West Hollywood.

37:34Mo Gilligan: The Butcher the Baker. Oh no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to have to take you some more places, Mo. I'm going to take you past the 10, okay? Take you to Leimert Park. Take you to Baldwin Hills. Take you to Adams. Okay, West Adams. I'm at the Butcher the Baker. It's all right though, man. Some of the, some of the, some of the, some of the, some of the places. There's so many places to actually find community in LA though. Yeah, okay. There's a lot of places. I'll take you. Okay, say less. When I'm next there, say less, man. So like, when you're over there in LA, you know, you make American Boy with Kanye West, which...

38:07And I made it in New York. Did you make it in New York? Yeah, I made it in Miami and then New York. Oh, okay.

38:12Mo Gilligan: I don't know. I feel like I just made that up though. I just assumed that you made it in LA. I say, take me to New York. I want to see LA. Oh, okay. I actually moved to New York first and then I moved to LA. Okay. How come you moved to New York first? Because it was closer. And also my label was there. I was at Atlantic at the time. John lived there. We all live there. So it was just like, oh, why am I, I'm not going to LA. Was it like a hub in terms of, just for the sound as well? Because New York's like the home of. It was a hub for the music. Everybody that was making music was in New York.

38:43And it does that. The industry over there does that. They go from coast to coast and they just migrate every 10 to 12 years. Everyone goes to the West Coast. Everyone goes to the East Coast. Everyone goes to Atlanta. Down to Miami. Back to the East Coast.

38:55Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. Because I remember at one point it was in the south for a bit yeah ah okay so it just moves around yeah but at that point it was New York and it was physical proximity to the label it's like I want to be in your I understand how this game goes yeah yeah and yeah you're not going to treat me like I'm brand new like I'm clear about how this business goes and I'm being your face Craig Calman who was the boss at the time okay and I was there I was in the like there was no excuse to not promote me I was ready to work I was focused and I would show up like a star every time as much as I could, you know.

39:28And it was, the studios were there, the producers were there, everyone I went to work with was there.

39:34Mo Gilligan: So yeah, it was full time. What was it like making that record though? Because we was talking about it a little bit before we started the pod, but like, I just remember, and I've got a ton of experiences, but like being in Clapham, I was at a party that was predominantly, there was from the hood there, isn't it? Really? Okay, okay. Yeah, so it was in Revolutions in Clapham. Yeah. and they had a private little section and everyone there is from the hood. I'll tell you the people who was there off camera. And then when I say you're like, oh, okay. But I won't incriminate them. I say off camera, off the podcast.

40:09Mo Gilligan: Then you'll say, oh, okay, cool. But in there, this is like, you know, Clapham has always been where for like the young professionals are, do you know what I mean? And works in the city or, you know, got a good job. They always go to Clapham. You see something. but I never forget when American Boy played and we were still quite young we were probably very early 20s I'm talking like maybe 21 22 and how everyone came together was like I think the DJ played a good two three times because like you know the DJ's playing trying to play songs for us but then he's realising that it's not it's not just us we've got other people but seeing you know middle class white women come up to a group of young black boys and be like Like, take me on a trip.

40:54Mo Gilligan: And we're like, you know, we're twirling them around. Like, it was like, I'll never forget that moment. We're not twirling them around. No. That's the thing you do, and you're like, all right, okay, all right. Yeah, yeah. I don't know this woman, you know, bro. Yeah, twirl her. Yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah, pick up this woman, bro. But like, it was... Wait, I just got the vision in my mind. Like, I was like, she's short, okay. We didn't know what to do. We're like, why are you dancing with us? I don't know. Because normally it's like, Hey, move from me, man. No, I mean, man. I'm telling you what it meant.

41:24Mo Gilligan: Move from me, man. I'm with it. In this one... Hey, what's going on, man? So, like, you guys drinking? Listen, when certain songs come, hello, you all right? Yeah, yeah, we got... What's your name? Agatha. Agatha. I don't know this woman you know, bro. Not Agatha. But, like, I'll never forget that. That song came on and it united, like, the room. Yeah. And that's just my experience. And there's many other experiences. but like how is it like you know where you are in your middle now like how has it changed your life in some ways do you know what i mean it well start from the top i i believe in prayer and that's and that's a prayer of course god is the most high boy the highest the most high loves me in a way that i could is inexplicable um and i have records now that i could say in any space in time someone's gonna know it and someone's gonna feel joy about it yeah and to me that record it was just pure fun i was channeling polly from heidi high when i was recording it that was me i was in the studio in miami going like hey me i'm like going like head eyes rolling hi just happy hi not hi hi happy hi just uh having fun and i remember thinking yeah they're gonna to feel this because i am in pure joy right now and this is all i got didn't take me long to record it none of my records that i believe are really good records and that people love from me take me long hour max yeah it's like channeling almost like just boom boom boom out right and i know you didn't take us long either okay so i feel like these are the ones where it's like god was like i have something for you to say say that all right that's that's my explanation on how the records come but how it changed everything and like it and it's what i wanted you know for me it wasn't the going there to get it was the i'm going to win a grammy that was the point how i was gonna get it was immaterial i didn't care all right the things lined up i took i said yes to the things that lined up and i was grateful for it and i went to work i just shook hands and kissed babies in America too I've been tired Mo haven't slept in 20 years um but it was the same amount of work but the payoff that everybody and their auntie and their grandma and their cousin and their grandkids and their their nieces and nephews and to today the fortnight version the this version the remixes the Gavin state Stacy and Gavin like you know like it's just like this is lifestyle god this is what we prayed about thank you thank you and i guess it must feel so endless because it's like i was saying before it's one of those timeless tracks yeah and and i feel like it's one of those we we have our we have our uk tracks within the black community where we're like ah yeah these are our anthems that we were saying you know i mean 1980s swiss cry i'd probably put 21 seconds 21 seconds craig davis rewinds yeah we have these seven days yeah and we you know we we would defend him to the end to the heavens you know what i mean yeah um but then american boy is one of those tracks where it's like uk staple track dance floor you get on the dance floor you sing everyone knows every word like which it's it's one of those tracks where also like like you got men on the floor singing that like yeah but they're like when kane starts coming on that's when the guys are like we're like yeah let me sing it to you so you know what reminds me you know like greece yeah this is my bit yeah man but i i say it because it's one of those tracks it's like oh it's like a timeless track it's obviously internationally known but like it's a guaranteed lap that it's a real club banger but it's a floor it's you know when a song is a club banger a floor filler like a song you want to like grew to in the car yeah and some some tracks can fit one category you know you're like this this is a floor filler like well let's to it in the car I don't know but it ticks like every single box do you know what I mean and I'm not just saying that just to gas you up but it's the truth it's like it ticks every box do you know what I mean mums like it do you know what I mean the road man who's been up at Spliff is like I really want to which is nuts to me which is nuts to me like it's like yeah there's some of those tracks that I think of and I'm like yeah it's it's in that kind of category do you know what I mean this is when Will.i.am produced the record and he has a bunch of producers and one of the producers that ironically worked on it worked on my new album me and him made this new album but one of the things that I told him was like don't play me nothing light on these heavy records like don't play me no light because you're looking at me like this skinny little black girl like you don't need nothing heavy you need a pop record and I was just like but I need a bass line yeah yeah yeah I was very clear about that.

46:46The reggae has me. Will always have me. So when Will played that, I was like, I'm not back. It was like a lot of like moving around the studio.

46:57Mo Gilligan: Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was like, I don't think, I said, listen, I said, bro, if we don't make this record, your money back on this record, I'll go to Ibiza with it. I'll just, I'll pay you for it and I'll just go to Ibiza. That was what I was at with. I was like, I'll go to Iron Apple. We'll be good. We'll be good. I'll make your money back I'll sell a return I'll be straight man and that's my that was my energy about it I was like no this is I was at Super D I had a Super D mixtape yeah my cousin had given to me on CD and I was playing that my whole maybe two or three months before I was like shit was on repeat in my house that shit went platinum in my house and I was like no this is what we this is home this I'm we're good in Europe and the UK this is gonna do it i didn't expect the world i didn't expect japan china hungary poland australasia freaking bolivia we have been everywhere with that record i'm sorry we've been everywhere with that record and to me it's just like when you know you know but again that's where i come from this is it was inspired by me knowing my music and what i knew of the uk and being sure that what we do has value, you know?

48:12But like you said, the road man, Bill it up to it. everyone likes that track,

48:16Mo Gilligan: you know? Yeah, that's a flaw filler. How did it come to be working with Kanye West? How did that come to go? Well, he was kind of like at the time where John was signed to him and I was signed to John. Yeah. It's like cousin, uncle, not uncle, cousin, right? Yeah, yeah. And we're making this record and the label like, well, this is a hit. I was like, all right. I was like, I mean, yeah, I know. you know the children are dancing to it like the two year olds in your houses that you're playing it to and you're testing it with they're all bobbing this is gonna be good did it get released by Will.i.am before he did yeah because I feel like he got airplayed before so here's what happened so the Kanye part he came on it after us they were just like how did we supercharge it okay and like there's only one rapper that could do it and we went around all the different rappers who were out yeah and they were like Kanye he's right there you know like i was like i mean it's a hit with or without him that's just extra shit you know like it's extra and so he won on it he did it he killed it when um that got tricky the he had put it will um will i am and put it on an album he had with bbe that was already sold and he played i don't know if he played it by mistake yeah or he played us the record by mistake and was like no i don't think you should i was like we're gonna use because i remember hearing it before Kanye was on it.

49:36Mo Gilligan: So I've always wanted to ask that. So the beat was already made and he put it on that album and people were like, so people were like, oh, this is already out. We were like, it's on BBE. It's a smaller boutique label. Will I Am's Will.i.am. But the way he had produced it was more instrumental. Yeah. Kind of like a Songs About Girls vibey type of record. So it was out and it was only out in the UK. Okay. So it was because he's Will.i.am. It would get major play and people were, you know, or back-to-back it sometimes when the record had come out. But my... American Boy wasn't the only record that was double play for me.

50:14Come Over was also a double play. Oh, yeah, man. Yeah, so I had Come Over 2 and it was given to an artist called Chantel, who's my friend. And then we had to kind of yank it back. Or the label were like, ah, reproduce that shit to the producer. Give us that back. Yeah. And he reproduced it a bit. He gave her one version of it and I had another. and come over is come over.

50:36Mo Gilligan: Yeah. It's what it is. And Chantel's my dog. I love her. We was in Barbados a couple of years ago in New Year's. That's my gal, you know. So it's no beef on that end of it. Sometimes you just got to tweak the beat a little bit and put a different song on it. It's like a doublet. So then within your middle, you get like a Grammy nomination. Madness. Madness. How does that feel? Because I feel like when it comes to, you know, we sit here and we say, I don't do it for the awards, But when some awards come knocking, it's like, what? Like I said, like I said. It's going to put more eyes on your purpose, on your mission.

51:12So, I think for me, it was just the idea that I had said it and it's here. And my friends at that point were like, oh, bitch, you really do say things and they happen. I'm like, I understand who I am. Yeah, man. No, but like, God loves me. Manifestations.

51:29Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. Big on that, man. That was a real thing. I wrote it out. I said it four times. more than four it was very clear that this is the direction we're going in and so everything started lining up it happened we got told about the nomination when i was in vienna on a tour and i wanted to come home i was over it i was tired i was pissed everyone was pissing me off i want to go home and i get on the phone and this is like another phone call about another bill or something going wrong and i'm just like what well you got nominated i was like for what like what am i nominated for all the award seasons are done like stop for the grammys man i almost dropped the phone you got two i did i was coming down in the in the lift skinny lifts in europe right the small littles i like i started jumping to the point they were like no no stop stop stop stop i was jumping i got out in the street i did a whole praise dance i may have fallen on my knees i was like god you love me you love me you love me you know thank you thank you thank you and then party to the next city of course i didn't want to go home then well i went i came home for christmas but i was like this is great you know yeah yeah going to the awards i got my award on the carpet which was funny because the year before i barely got on the carpet with john it was a lot of jostling for place and space and i was kind of in the back like i just want to go home you need a carpet in America you know what time it is you need to move everyone moves it's like a cattle yeah and if there's someone else who's like oh this person's coming you can see them all getting ready to be like we're trying to I move along okay and so for me to be there the next year in my own right like no and I go ahead in the middle of an interview so I was like well while I'm here everyone at home can see me my mum was like we can see you like she's texting all the people she's like we can see you alright thank you so much thank you mum I was happy I was good after that yeah whether I won the other award or not I didn't care yeah I won my Grammy you know wow but then being in the room and performing and seeing the legends who you grew up looking at Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and uh freaking you everybody so I remember seeing uh Jimmy Jam like no no Terry Lewis was right there and I'm on this podium performing it was like there I was like but I would sing properly don't fuck this up don't fuck this up I took my time about it and I did my thing those moments seared into my soul yeah man because it was like oh no you really do manifest in your life and it's beautiful that must have been the moment though to be at the Grammys getting an award and also I feel like getting a Grammy as a UK artist we're not crazy it's like it's like this is this doesn't happen for everyone like even nominations as well and also a black british uk artist you know they say oh we need more people from the uk on you know on the council and to recognize and you know sometimes it's interesting we we say we're like oh well you know like we don't really do it for that but then sometimes you're like i want someone to say yes we do yeah there are times i want everyone to get boasty about this there's some awards where you're like you know what like no i want it man could have at least got a invite call or sort of like well we used to have to be i think we that's the one thing we're hum we're humble and i and i use that word with the uh knowing the root of it is nice and that comes to from naive yeah we're we're very humble about what we want man say what you want state it stand on it be nice to people be kind to people stand on what you want and move according to what you believe you should have there's nothing wrong with that everybody else does it they do it like no one gets in front of a camera to say don't film me what we talk why are you here what's that plan you know think about that everyone that's listening think about that if you have a friend who's good at something and they get in front of the camera now do they do it because they don't want to be seen or do they do it because they believe that they are good at create being creative and playing a role or singing a song or and it's fine to say that it's lovely to have other people say it to you and it's amazing to be a person that's like man i'm about the craft but you also want to be seen yeah you also want your purpose to hit its target you know and i think you do yourself it we do ourselves sometimes a disservice being to self-deprecating sometimes stand up and say yes no i'm really good at this and i'd like the chance to show you it yeah you know like i'd like the chance to be awarded for it i'd like the chance to be recognized for it more than awarded and i'd like the chance to do something that moves your spirit that moves your energy that changes your life i'd love the opportunity to show you what i can do in this aspect and to to live in my purpose as a person, as an alchemist, as a creative.

56:41And I'm grateful for that. That's where I get into my kindness. I am grateful for the opportunity to be able to do this for a living and people care. But I believe I deserve it too.

56:52Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, it's more about saying I'm talented and I'm blessed. I'm not lucky. So let's just get that out. We work. Take that L word. I say that to everyone. Never say you're lucky. I'm just lucky. you know i'm lucky it just worked out i'm like nah lucky means you didn't plan for it to happen that's just walking across the road that's luck that's cute yeah yeah you your life was not by chance didn't i always say that take that word lucky out your vocabulary man because in respect to yourself you you are you were planned on being here yeah man whether your parents plan for you or not you god somebody something planned on you being here yeah man act like it man yeah Speaking of being here, you're here in the UK.

57:38Mo Gilligan: I know you're doing a bunch of press and stuff as well. You've got your new album out as well. Yeah. How's that feeling? Because I know you're still touring. You've got a show on Saturday in Philly. So how is it now, like, releasing music, and especially, like, being back home? Because what you were saying about the UK, of how you're, like, you know, it's thriving. People don't need to, you know, go and do X, Y, Z and stuff. What's it like being back? Man, it's beautiful. I am getting so much love and love that I wasn't even thinking or again I wasn't as much as I'm saying like yeah absolutely I'm just like oh I didn't realise that it was here like that and that you're mentioning like the cousins and that your older sister would play da da da and I'm getting people coming up like you were in my house Saturday morning 1980 was playing and I'm just like I'm Gladys and Aretha now I'm that grown but my manager broke it down like Like hip hop is growing up.

58:35And so we are dealing with people. We have people who are first generation babies of hip hop. Oh, yeah, man. Right. So their oldest memories are hip hop artists. And I'm just like, wow, that's not a lie. And I'm grateful. I'm honored to be in the number that did something that people care to listen to. Thank you. You know, I didn't, not in vain. It wasn't for fun. It wasn't for blah. I did something of standard of something that helped to build futures you know that helped to move life and it's moved my life too but that meant something to somebody and people so it's a lot of love happening and the people are like thank fuck you're back and I'm just like I'm back and they're saying like yeah it's been a minute and I'm like it has the pandemic through me because the last record I put out was a reggae album that people kept asking me to do I did that in 2018 and in the pandemic had us all sit down for a while and I had the choice to sit and just be like well I did it legacy time just exist off your records and I was almost there because I was just going to go act or something do my radio show and live my best life and I was like now you got more things to say so this new album Stay Outer is built out of returning to myself and joy

59:55Mo Gilligan: I feel that though because it's got that I don't know if it's your influence from your auntie but there's that funk and soul in there. All of it. Do you know what I mean? Remember that? We just talked about growing up. Our Saturday morning cleaning was Frankie Beverly and Mays. Yeah, man. It was Bob Marley. It was... It was pop music but it was Sister Sledge and it was all of that. It was Melba Moore. It was Stephanie Mills. It was Sylvester, Larry Levin, the original guy, the original blends guy. Okay? Like it was those artists that to me exemplified. Anita Baker, Patty LaBelle, keep, you know, they were the records that were played while I was chopping onions for dinner later and learning how to clean fish.

1:00:42Okay. Like hoovering the floor, washing the bathroom, leaving it to season. And then coming back. These are the records that we lived on. And we're in the pandemic. We're all listening to D-Nice. Everyone was like, yep, this is the DJ for the time. Yeah, man. And he's playing records all through the day and all through the night. And not one of them was anything up to date. Think about it. It was all rare groove. What we call rare groove. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in there like, say, say, say, Jeffrey Osborne. Like, Brothers Johnson. Like, I was grown around that time. I was five. I was zero and five.

1:01:18Between zero and five. And I was like, this makes me happy. This fills my soul with joy. And I want to make sure that we remind ourselves that we're built with light. when we were younger that was light to us that was we have that light and these this music feels like light this music reminds us who we are as people and i wanted my thing with this was bringing back soul bringing back uh well reminding people of soul reminding people that there are bridges and there are intros and we need them yeah and we should use them in music and put a change in somewhere and push yourself as a musician but do it from joy do it from the dance do it from the two-step do it from the move your body like body roll in a seat if you're not able to dance yeah man you know like it's nothing wrong with it this is who we are as people and i feel like you know that with music now i feel like we probably seek out more more music now than we ever feel like we

1:02:17Mo Gilligan: did because it's it's weird where it's become so accessible so it's just like and it's so accessible but then there's also like there's a you know there's the stats of music where you know we get our we get our wrap up at the end of the year or you know like it's everything's focused outside of music and we're focusing on quantifying music instead of feeling dreams there are and don't get wrong your streams are solid still what you want like 800 million or something it's over a billion at least of american boy and i'm grateful there's some big numbers there you know the out god is good yeah i've been here for a minute it must be that sometimes you're like yeah you know that my wrap-up's good still it should be the wrap-ups are rapping man wrap-ups are rapping but it should be i've been here for a while yeah if it was two streams i'd be like something's wrong with the algorithm i put out way more records than that what's going on yeah but it should be that but we have access to it all and we forget because we're like everything new is pushed on us and we forget that and and this goes back to my point of light as people we forget that we are the originators as humans we forget that we are the originators like ai is great use it but we create soul we create dancing we walk around and make each other feel things as humans touch somebody like that's what that's what real things are humanity is so this album for me is about reminding people of your light you are the person it's cute we have all the things what about you yeah what do you wake up to every morning and say to yourself like how do you move through your life so between the songs and the music i just want to remind people that it's you it's your light it's always you it's not them it's not them it's not the things it's not your shoes it's not your stuff it's not your electronics it's not your streams it's not your stats it's you that's the thing like that's the special thing like and imagine that we're on this planet in this world in this time in this galaxy that you get what i'm driving at because we we focus so much on the future so staying in the present in the present is almost like a luxury it's not but it's not it's the actual standard no no I always say it should be the norm but I guess with the amount of distractions we have or you know you've got one podcast telling you to wake up at 5am the other one said you not eat sugar the other one said don't eat rice now I was like if you people don't hey hey but then someone said to you hey you need to have you seen this film no I've not seen that film have you not have you not seen Sinners I don't know I just I just watched this other thing and I watched that I'll come back to it Yeah, so I feel like now I feel like staying in the present is almost like...

1:05:05Mo Gilligan: It's a practice. I'm just here. It's a practice. Yeah, you know, the other day I was in the gym and someone was like, oh, I don't really see much in the gym, man. I said, well, I just like being here. I'm here, innit? I'm here today. Hi. Because we're so used to being like, oh, I've been on this, I've been on that. It's like, are you up to? There's nothing much. I start telling people, minding my business, drinking my water. That's literally what I tell people when they say, what are you going to do?

1:05:36I'm here. I'm living my life. What you been doing for the past six years? Living life.

1:05:40Mo Gilligan: Yeah. What you been doing? We was all in the same pandemic. Yeah. Living my life. Living my life this morning. Would you guys know I did this morning? I got up, put my face on like put makeup on because i'm gonna be on tv and came here yeah and i'm having a good time yeah we need to normalize that we've been on around i'm alive what last 10 minutes like that's literally my statement people like last 10 minutes let me tell you what i'm doing now don't worry what's going on but talking them now you you have your memoirs coming out as well right i do i do that's gonna be so interesting man how how does how you how you because i feel like this is another facet some in some ways you know because we've always yeah got to know you essentially from your music as well yeah so now you're gonna get into this space of telling the people yeah you're letting people in you know i felt like it was necessary because i kept being asked how you how did you do this and i started being like i've got 15 years of stories uh 20 if i'm being honest 20 plus um all right let me write a how-to book and basing it on the entire experience but and i'm not doing a tell-all let me just get that off yeah because that doesn't help people it's not by enforcement uh yeah i don't like to slander people i don't that's not my thing everybody played their part perfectly and i'm grateful for him yeah um but what i've found helps me first and helps other people is getting the summation of the story so moving to new york people assume because no matter what you tell them people talk from their perspective they assume it was because no one wanted to you know like the uk hated you and i was like that wasn't the case i have so much love here yeah it's evidenced in a way that it went to number one here first before anywhere else so much love here it's not that the business there was no space for me in the business as it was turning and there was space for me in the united in the united states and the physicalness of being in the signed two years label means you have to be there so telling that technical stuff and telling people how i came to that decision i think that's more you get more value from that especially if you're an artist or just a creative any sort creative of any sort you get more value from that than you will me saying yeah they didn't want they they want me i'm wanted here i am loved here and i and i don't take that for granted and it's just like i feel like i need to tell it in a way that people will understand there are real reasons and there are real not frivant there are real quantified steps that you have to take for success and how i did it is this way yeah and i'm gonna tell it via my experiences and some you're gonna know some you're gonna be like well damn and some you're gonna be like huh i wonder why she chose to do that yeah and i want you to have all of that because this is your life and this is just my projection of my life and if there's something in it that can help you awesome yeah that's it that's all i care about like we have to give to who much is given much is expected yeah and so this is my giving yeah giving yeah and in speaking of like your journey how do you start to like envision like the latter part of your life i don't know why i've got all shakespeare then i like that you put it like that too because i always pose the question where i say you know do you look at your end but you know the later part in your life because now you're at a part where you know you're you're coming over here to do promo yeah you know but sometimes it's for a lot of artists that live here that it's going the other way around well i'm doing it all over the world yeah yeah but i feel like you're going everywhere you know you have a place that you call home now and you know you're coming here where you are loved and adored and your music is timeless it's still playing and you know you're writing your memoirs how do you start to kind of you know you've easily laid the foundations down you have a blueprint for people to follow in some ways so and what i mean by that the blueprint you know if it was a house we're like cool i see where that goes the foundations is there the house is built it looks fantastic how do i decorate this i see how i can build this thing yeah um that might not have always seemed possible to build in some ways but it's loved as well you know um but like how do you leave that blueprint for almost the next generation in some ways because i do feel like you are a product to follow in a way that is just seeing another successful black brit i don't do music but just seeing the fact i'm like oh you live in la yeah you can do this that's cold it's possible and we have this thing of black brits i don't want to exclude anyone else but as black brits you know in la everyone kind of knows each other yeah do you know what i mean london hugh's out there damson idris is out there um jovan everyone's kind of out there yeah and it's not to say everyone's hanging out but you're like oh cool i know yeah you're doing your thing yeah cool and it's something for it to follow not to say that we all must go america but it's really i feel like what you've done is like i've got this thing i'm taking it where it needs to go to check this out I don't hate that I don't hate that but check out what I'm about to build and so how do you look at you know handing over the blueprint to almost like the next generation for your legacy in some ways I look as much as people want to be in contact with me I gave my number out yeah always call me seriously and if anyone's ever heard anything different you're lying and if you've been a weirdo that's probably why you never got my number or if there was no mutual connection is probably why he never got to talk to me because boundaries my dear yeah of course but for the most part every artist that I've come across any field um I just I try and give as much information as they want that's me personally that's one writing the book is the second and three I just want to keep living my life according to the dreams I have all I ever did was dream like sat in my house and was like it'd be really nice if I was on top of the pops it'd be really nice if I could if it'd be lovely if I win a Grammy I'm gonna win a Grammy and then got real determined about certain things the more I understood manifestation and how you speak to yourself and your dreams and all I want to do is keep dreaming so in my future I see Broadway whether I produce or I'm in it I see more movies I've said I want to win an Oscar I'm saying best lead or supporting I'm not sure but I want to do the work and I want to get it done or producing I don't mind you know I want to be an EGOT you know however it comes I'm open to it I get out of the way the details that's all God as usual but I want to be an EGOT I think it's time you know and we've been I've been on Emmy nominated animation show animated shows Steven Universe we work and it's always very acute and very me you know so that's the main that's the career side of it but mostly on a personal side I want to be a blessing I want to be joyful I want to live a very long and happy life I want to be of sound mind I want to continue to be able to be an open heart and grow and and be young in my thinking and and be open to things that keep that calm on the new stages of life I always want to be a resource for people but not to the point where it wears me out I was you know like this is where I'm at on a personal level all the things that come to help fulfill those things I'm with it you know because I feel like you live like when you live like that it's saying thank you to God I'm 45 now and I can say that with all the pride because honey okay I look cute um but I'm 45 and I think to myself oh God imagine if I live for another 45 praise God you know I'm 90 like sheesh like I want to have a full beautiful Quincy Jones ass life yeah you know if you've done this in 45 yeah you kind of we all have that mentality of like bro what else can I do in the next 45 and then and then you think to yourself with money with my good with my good wits and my connects and my contacts huh and you dream bigger and I want that I personally want that for everybody I want everyone to hit that point in their life whether you're young or old where they're like I'm doing everything I want to do everything and just do it you know like wherever your everything is just do it you know be and just but keep good spirit be a nice human not nice be a kind human give you know however you give I don't care if it's things if it's your time if it's give because that's energetic it comes right back and just use your talent stay in your purpose rediscover yourself reinvent yourself there is nothing that says because you're color because you're this that you shouldn't or you can't I don't care if your parents tell you you can't do it this is your journey your parents are on their journey you were part of their journey and you came here you have yours yeah man go for that shit like it's really open out here you know and you make this up you and God sit there and co-create your life every minute you open your mouth like say something good put good in your life and that's so that's my that's my end yeah man right that's where I'm at and that's where I'm moving forward to this is the whole album stay out stay high stay up stay good you know stay in your bag that's my thing yeah Oh, I still, man, this has been, it's been a pleasure to just have you on the podcast.

1:15:49Thank you for having me.

1:15:50Mo Gilligan: But also just like seeing your, you know, your journey from, you know, listening to 1980 from the jump. Like, and I feel like that always feels so special when, you know, I listened to your music early on in my life. And like a full circle moment to be sitting in front of you and hearing the stories and, you know, But also, it's like, it's the journey. You know what I mean? I feel like the journey is so inspirational. I know there'll be a lot of people taking a lot of stuff from this and the way that you have built what you're currently doing, whether that is here, whether that's in the US or wherever it is around the world.

1:16:32Mo Gilligan: It's like, yeah, that blueprint is really there for us to all see and it's proper inspirational. So, yeah, it's been a pleasure, man. And this has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Estelle. I appreciate you, man. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes into making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate it if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review.

1:17:04Mo Gilligan: It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.