Footballer LEGEND, Joe Cole

0:00Mo Gilligan: Yes, what's good people? My name is Mo Gilligan and right now this is the beginning, middle and end podcast. Now today we are joined by one of the most naturally gifted English footballers of his generation. From his early days as a teenage prodigy at West Ham to winning multiple Premier League titles with Chelsea and representing England on the world stage at three World Cups. He has done it all. He's a player who's brought artistry to the pitch, scoring some unforgettable goals. And most recently, he's passing that experience on as a coach, a pundit and a mentor to the next generation. Talking about his new book, Luxury Player.

0:43Mo Gilligan: Please welcome to the podcast, the legendary Joe Cole. Thanks for doing the pod, bro. I really appreciate that, man. Really, really appreciate that. I know you've got a busy day of promo and stuff as well with the new book and stuff as well. But yeah, man. And I know you do pods as well, especially like because now you're in this kind of media punditry spotlight in some ways. Your beginner is interesting because you're from Paddington, like you were saying, you're from Paddington. And I don't know why I just thought you was from East. Yeah. I don't know if it's a football thing. I don't know if it's a cottony thing or a West Ham thing.

1:18Mo Gilligan: But I just thought you was from East. But you say a lot of people say that, right? Yeah, I think because I'm I've always been quite private. right and i've not been one so i was born in padderton right yeah so some people but then i moved to camden town i say i'm from camden because that's where i grew up that's where i was running around the streets doing all the all of that stuff and then at 17 i moved east because you know i was playing at west ham yeah yeah i've never been one to like oh you've they've got where i place a birth wrong you know i think that's so i just let people yeah think what they got to think when before you went to west ham did you play for sen rab no no no no no that's John Terry J Lloyd Samuel Because they had such an alumni of players that a lot of them went to play for like London clubs Yeah See all of them boys are just a year older than me you know obviously when you get older it's like 6 months 12 months it's not the same but at that age they was always I was the year below so I played for Chapel Boys Chapel Market Okay So we used to play against Semrab we used to give them a little whooping every now and then Yeah We were decent we were decent yeah but kids don't play grassroots football no more they do but then the best ones get moved on to the academy system and then and then all of a sudden they're like little professionals and it's all done differently yeah like you know your team when you were with Sunday League was with your boys you know what I mean and it just felt different you know what I mean you train outside on the grass if it's wet yeah you might have to borrow someone's shin pads there's never enough socks do you know what I remember I was talking to my mum about it the other day picking up the dog poo off the pitch before you're like do you know what I mean like I'm looking at my my oldest son's at Brentford now and it's like it's like a carpet like Camp Nou they're playing on professional and I'm just like you don't know you were born son you know like Sunday league and that like is when someone would score because the pitch was a bit waterlogged near the goalkeeper area it wouldn't really go in it would just kind of stop right before it goes in the goal oh yeah or you might get a dog that runs on the pitch chasing the corners like, ah, everyone stop.

3:27Mo Gilligan: Hey mate, can you get your dog off the pitch? Yeah, no, Sunday league, I feel like, because I played Sunday league and then I played a bit like Saturday league, same kind of thing basically but I think that when you play that kind of football and then the minute I got to go on like a professional pitch and I'm talking like when I got to do like a soccer raid or like a charity thing. we met you. Yeah, so I met you at soccer raid and that was, That was like the level. I was like, oh, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it now because when you play Sunday league and the ball bobbles and, you know, even like you do play like, let's say Sunday or Saturday, you might go to like a school and they've got like a nice pitch, for example.

4:11Mo Gilligan: But I remember going on to Old Trafford for the first time. I think that's the first time I met you. And I was like, okay, I understand it now. Yeah. There's a way that the ball was moving that I've only heard of Premier League and pros talk about. That I was like, it's just the same pitch. But until you pass it and you're like, oh, it's zipped. This is moving super quick. You never lose this quick. But you started playing football at quite an older age, right? Was it like 11 years old, right? See that, I mean, Mo, I was like, I was an unusual player in my time. Do you know what I mean? And people ask me, why?

4:51What did you do? I didn't get coached. I didn't play. My dad wasn't a football man at all. So it wasn't like nobody... He didn't notice that I could play.

5:00Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And I was quite a lonely kid. Not a lonely kid. I was happy in my own company. So every day outside my house, there'd be a wall in the flats and you'd be playing. And I was fascinated by what I could do with a football. So it was just... I could do everything with a football. But I'd never played a game. I only watched a game. So I was nearly 11 and I went and played for Paddington and we was a terrible team. We used to get whooped. Like I'm talking, do you know, I used to play centre half because the only chance I got to get the ball and try and dribble everyone. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so like I never got coached and nobody was ever telling me what to do or what not to do.

5:39So by the time I went to a club, an academy, I had good ball mastery, but then I needed to be coached you know what I mean so yeah that was just an unusual route

5:53Mo Gilligan: so like at that age of playing football because I think like now you know you're hearing of kids getting signed at like 6 years old and they're in these academies and they I've heard that it's not really about how good they are it's almost about like other stuff in terms of how it's almost like oh do they Are they sharing the ball? Are they positive? It's almost not about the football in some ways. And that's only from what I've heard as opposed to what I know, essentially. Do you know what I mean? Two things have changed. I think when we come through in the 90s, right? So football from 92 to Premier League, it started to have this boom financially.

6:35Football was always there and always meant things. But all of a sudden, football's getting every year more and more glamorous, more and more money big stars were coming to the Premier League but the parents like I think the parents were like if your kid was good you took him to the Sunday League and they went to watch him and you know it was like oh great he's playing well oh he's at a club and it was all a bit quaint nobody knew what was going on but fast forward 30 years I think there's a lot of people that understand that this if you've got the best kid in the world and he's 12 there's a financial value on that this kid could be the next Max Downman or the next Juan Neri or the next list any player that's come through.

7:18So then there's, people have wires to that and it's, and clubs try to do a good job but ultimately young footballers are assets even as kids and they've got a duty of care for them to be, to be kids to grow up in that. So there's so much thrown into them and the clubs, I work with Brentford in the academy a little bit and they do a great job at trying to make the, give the boy an opportunity to learn football, but be rounded. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But ultimately, if you produce one player for your first team, that's millions. It's like, it's a funny mix where nurturing a footballer and a business at some point.

7:57Do you know what I mean?

7:58Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. I guess it's where like now, that almost, if someone is a young star, as much as it's the prospect of them going on to great stuff, I guess it's the business of football of, we know that this boy could be sensational at 16. Let alone, I think, when I used to watch football as a young kid, like in the 90s and early 2000s, it was like, oh, he's a prospect like 20, 21 coming through. And you're like, oh, this person might be good. He's in the reserves or under 21s. And then they kind of come through where, you know, I went to the Arsenal game and seen Max Downham play. And I felt so nervous for him because I was like, right, you're 15.

8:36But at the same time,

8:37Mo Gilligan: I'm just like, I'm excited. but even when there's any other young player now, I'm like, fingers crossed, I hope this young man does well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see the kind of trajectory. So for you at your age of 11, you're playing football at, and I feel like just from growing up and watching you, you always seemed like you're one of those players that I think there's a few English players who just have this natural flair. Like there's only a couple that I could say that's like, like the stepovers, the turns, the flicks. Like there's only a couple that I could name as like English footballers that was like, yeah, I think in a past life Joe Cole might have been Brazilian or something.

9:21Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? But because you, you played football in like, you, you grew up in like a cage. You used to play cage football as well, right? Yeah. How, how was that for your development of football? Because I think you can tell a cage footballer when you see them play football. Yeah. There's a, there's a great, there's a great uh I think that London and Paris have produced the most professional footballers around the globe oh wow and it's because when you think about it there's a mix of diversity there's poverty as well so there ain't much to do for kids you know growing up like someone weren't taking me golf or tennis do you know what I mean you know so it was like mum and dad were like you know trying to you know get by you know I was at like seven eight nine I'll come in for dinner do you know what I mean and we had a football yes yeah yeah and uh so that you know and then and then obviously you play with bigger kids you know tougher kids you learn lessons yeah yeah yeah you might have to have a few few scraps along the way like all these lessons help you as you go through your footballing journey um and that's all happened before you walk into an academy yeah so I But my natural, I say natural flirt, I sound proper like self-indulgent, but I just fascinate.

10:45I'm just obsessed. You know, if there was a kid in the estate who could do something with a football that I couldn't do, I couldn't sleep. I'd go to bed and think, oh, I'm going to need to work this out. I'm there like, most kids might be now watching Peppa Pig or something. I'm nine thinking, like, Jermaine can do that flick.

11:02Mo Gilligan: I can't do it. I need to get better. and then I set my alarm in the morning and before anyone because you know in the summer holidays no one surfaces till gone 10 but I'll be out and I'll practice like I had this mindset as a kid where I just wanted I needed to be able to do everything and then I think that served me right the way through Who were some of your idols as a child when it comes to to football who was because I always like when you're young there's always the player like I grew up watching Thierry Henry so I started playing and again I only play that Sunday or Saturday but I played as a centre-back You can play Mo I'm not a bad man I try man Some of them boys in soccer they can't play you can play I appreciate that Joe I can't lie I'm going to take that to the grave but no I think like when I played when I was younger like for example I would watch Thierry Henry and knowing that he was a winger made me say well he plays up front and I want to play wing and there was this I remember growing during like the 90s, early 2000s, it was, you was good if you had a left foot.

12:10Yeah.

12:10Mo Gilligan: So I taught myself how to shoot and cross with my left because I was like, well, you know, if you're going to make it to have a left foot. But I'd always try and finish. Like when Henri's on the left and then he opens his body out and does that placement shot. It was like iconic, a bit like how, you know, basketball is where you've got like, I don't know, Kobe does. He's back and then. but who was that for you? Mate, I get asked this question it's the only one it's Paul Gascoigne, right? I thought you would say this Yeah, yeah, yeah because when I was saying about those five English footballers with flair for me it's like you, Paul I'd probably say Rooney in there as well when it came to the flair That's very kind of him So obviously I said there wasn't football on in my house but the World Cup I'm like, Dad come on England are playing, right?

12:59Yeah, yeah, yeah And he's like, put England on, right? And so it's the first time we all sat down as a family to watch England. Like, you know, the World Cup goes, even the periphery fans will watch. And like, he was this fresh-faced kid and he was fearless. And he was, you know, he was exciting, the commentators. And I just felt so exotic, right? And then I remember the moment. So 1990 World Cup, the telly downstairs broke. Imagine that, the panic stations, right? So we had to borrow a telly, the little square ones, right? And we're all like watching this 1990 world, the semi-final against Germany.

13:41And I was like, Gazza was brilliant. Like he just mesmerized me and I was transfixed. And then the tears came when he got the yellow card and like I could see the sort of passion and how it affected my mum and my dad. Like we don't even like football. Do you know what I mean?

13:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. And I remember just thinking, I want to play for England. That moment, right? Then the next day, I'm out. And it was like, you're on like a mission to play for England. And anything, because it ain't like social media weren't around. So you couldn't see Gaza. You know what I mean? But I would scour with the papers, see if there's any news about Gaza. Yeah, yeah. If he was on telly, I'd watch it. I was obsessed with him. and so yeah Gazza was the the muse if you like for me wanting to play football yeah so then fast forward a little bit from 11 years old to then signing for for West Ham and you know you've got talents like Rio Ferdinand was there Frank Lombard was there did you play with Jimmy Bullard yeah yeah Jimmy came in later do you know Jimmy well I met him a few times like doing Soccer AM and stuff like that really lovely guy really like yeah he's nuts isn't he he's like one of those people where it's like if he wasn't a footballer he's the person you want to sit next to in a pub because he'd have some good stories about anything yeah yeah does that make sense yeah I love Jimmy yeah lovely guy I sat next to him in a changing room yeah and let me tell you it can be fun it can also be a pain in the backside

15:17honestly I love him he come into West Ham and for some reason one day I decided I'm going to squirt him with the fire extinguisher like thinking I'll get you once like a little one in the head like and then for like every day for six months he's doing it to me like you can't you can't he was yeah and do you know what Jimmy would have come through at West Ham but he had me Carrick Frank Lampard so he had to leave to go Peterborough and then come back up ended up being a Premier League player and getting an England squad but yeah we had a really good group of young young midfielders Leon Britton as well do you remember him

15:55Mo Gilligan: yes yeah yeah yeah so think of all that quality five Premier League players all playing midfield in this like three four year spell at West Ham did it feel like pressure at that time I think the reason why I mentioned Jimmy because I've met him before yeah and he's like first time I met him he's a proper trickster like he he had a pine and then he pretended to pour the pine and I was like oh oh and I could imagine there's that football there's I guess at that at young age there's a mixture of like the football banter and camaraderie that comes with you know being with a bunch of guys 24 7 do you know i mean and all you do is play football but then there's also the other side which is the professional side of we're young and we're playing for a club like west ham do you know i mean how how how do you focus at that young age when you're earning a little bit of money as well and then there is the added pressure of like yeah you're the one that's going to be next up it's a weird it's a weird journey i suppose like right in the book you know you're when you play we play foot when you you just saw you're in it right so all of a sudden i'm at school 16 doing my gcses have a little holiday come back and then i'm i'm training with ian wright neil rudder trevor sinclair and then i'm playing with them then I'm playing in front of a stadium and there's big expectations and I think there's a different something about the ones the footballers that make it are not necessarily the best players like they're the ones that can go all these little steps like the first time a fan gets on your back the first bad game you've had the first time you get booed it might be even the first time you have to train with one of your heroes there's all these little things that you have to go through and come through the other side so that period of your life going from like some normal kid who's with dreams of playing football to playing you know with in the big boys game is is just is a really hard thing to navigate because you're you know i remember like first my first premier league game i'm playing against manchester united old trafford you know and i think it was 99 so it was the year maybe just the year before they won the treble or the year after they won the treble.

18:13And you're like, mate, I had, I had your, these guys posters up on my wall two years ago. Now like I'm in, in battle with them. So, so writing the book was really good because you're trying to sort of, and, and, and you have, I have children now myself, I've got a daughter who's 15. I'm thinking, wow, she's nearly 16. I'm thinking, well, at that age, I was 12 months away from playing against the best side in Europe, Old Trafford, a lot of expectations.

18:39Mo Gilligan: yeah of course and you think how did I do it how did you know navigate that and yeah that was the best thing about writing a book because you realise it's a mad journey you're on to do that and I guess it's like also quite nice to start collecting all your memoirs from a time that's just not on a podcast here and an interview there it's now captured in a piece of literature do you know what I mean no one I remember writing a book myself and it was knowing that, you know, one of the publishers said, you know, no one ever throws away a book. I said, what do you mean? He said, never. You'll catch it in, even in 20 years time, it'll be in the library.

19:21Mo Gilligan: But someone always passes down a book. You never say, oh, I'm done with that. I'll put it in the bin. People, you know, might be in a charity shop or wherever, but someone else will pick it up and read it and how far it will go. and just how people connect to a book, what I've found was people that will come up to me and say, oh man, your book, wow. And I sit there and I'm like, oh, I just assumed you might know what I do because you might go to my shows and people say - So do you think they have more of a connection with you because they've read the book? Yeah, and I think it's also how they are able to imagine the things that you're talking about, where they sit there, wherever they are in the world, on a flight, at home, uh maybe in a hospital and they sit there and they're imagining the things you're talking about yeah which is so different to a podcast where you get to see it and listen to it or an interview you've captured it you have no distractions um so at that age of 17 you're playing with like it's like you're saying you're you're playing with like some of your idols at this point then you've also got this core young group of talent what's it like going on a pitch at 17 years old because it's like i was saying i went to the arsenal game and i see max down at 15 and there's 60 000 fans and don't get me wrong we're all there supporting him yeah but what's that like when you go away to like old trafford and there it's the opposite yeah like if that makes sense do you know what i mean there's a there's a wild moment when you realise football ain't right I remember I think I scored my first goal for West Ham against Birmingham it was a winning goal last minute I was 17 or 18 I can't remember and scored the goal but jumping I talk about in the book and you feel on top of the world there's no better feeling in the world than the last minute winner and then I get pulled out literally five minutes after the game to go and do the interviews for Sky and you know I'm walking through and the way it is at St.

21:23Andrews is, I don't know if it's still the same, but you go from one stand to the other through like a cage to get to the media bit. And I've just, as I'm walking out, the Birmingham fans are walking out. Mate, and there was about four or five grown men. They're probably men in their 20s, but when you're 18, that's a grown man, or maybe in their 30s, punching the thing, trying to spit at you. And I'm just like, you know, like you're just thinking, this ain't right. This is mental. Do you know what I mean? And then bang, you go through the thing and then there's this thing. Oh, how are you doing?

21:54What did you think? If I look at the interview, I'm like a ghost. I'm like, what's just happened there? Do you know what I mean? But all them little challenges that come in football, I mean, it's not right, but it is what it is. Like, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't say I lost any sleep over it. I'd probably give them a bit of shit back. Do you have to do that at that age? Yeah, I think in football, especially back then in football, you had to have a bit of bravado about you, especially the way I played because people, like you said, I like to take a few liberties. I like to play the beautiful game and I feel football's, I love winning, I'm a competitor, but also like, I understood that it means people go to watch players because they want to see something they don't see at Hackney Marshes on a Sunday, Saturday, right?

22:40So I always had that in my mind. So I tried to play, I tried to entertain as well. I was conscious of the fact that people enjoyed it. So on the flip side of that, no 30-year-old fullback wants me trying to pop on through his legs. So I took a lot of pelters.

22:56Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have to grow thick skin, you know, and it wasn't a sanitised version of football. Like, there was some, like, I remember referees going, like, when I was getting smashed, like, and I'm thinking, like, nowadays, straight red, VAR, you're gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're up Soho with EFA, and you're hitting your pocket. The referee's going, that's your free one, son. And I'm on the floor like that, like you can fold it up and it's just like so football was different but you have to you have to grow a bit of a thick skin and I think growing up where you're from that's why that's why I think you know that working class environment where you come from you have to be tough you know that's just how it is and to play football you have to be tough mentally not physically you know I wasn't physically strong because you're playing as a centre mid as well at this stage right so I always say that's one of the hardest positions to play because I think it's you've got to play the game forward backwards you know what's going on left and right and you almost have to play a lot without the ball I remember going to soccer raid and someone said to me like don't get me wrong I played football not at a competitive level but who was it there was some pro that said I think it was a Darren Fletcher yeah he's like Moe do you know how to play in the pockets I said I'd have said yes I said yeah I said I don't know what that means but he's talking football talk at this point and i'm like i don't have a clue what you're talking about but like playing in that position at such a young age yeah i think you you know i i compare it a little bit to seeing like jack wilshire play for example such a young age where he would give it back in some ways i always i've always had a lot of similarities to yourselves in some ways.

24:45Mo Gilligan: Being an Arsenal fan. I agree. Where he would give it back, but he would hold it up. He had a, you know, he was able to turn with the ball and stuff. But, you know, at that age, it's like, I could imagine you have to give as good as you got as well. Do you know what I mean? Because you was a flair player in a sense where, you know, you could do the turns and the tricks and stuff. So would that make you a target? Oh, God, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, mate. Yeah. and again like I said I played on for 20 years so I saw football evolve slightly you know massively I remember playing a semi-final against Blackburn for Chelsea FA Cup and we won they were up at half time and Benny McCarthy who I'd never met before but he's obviously a nice guy he's come up to me at half time he's like you know when you're starting the second half he's going Joe he said be careful he said they're all in the dressing room saying they're going to kick you this off I went cheers Benny mate do you know what I mean it was like savage done and you know you know so like so like that was that was a you knew you would get smashed you know some of the my good mate Scotty Parker every time I see him he was playing for New Colt he done a belting tackle on me it's on it's on YouTube it's got about it's got about three million followers it's like it's just you know it was how football used to be you know he's hit me and I don't know what planet I was on.

26:14I went up in the air. I calmed down. But you just accepted it, you know? Yeah. And now I'm a pundit and I'm watching football and fouls are easier to get, you know? So I do sometimes be a bit envious. I'd like to have played in this era. Do you know what I mean?

26:32Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I could imagine it's interesting with the whole VAR kind of, you're either for it or you're against it where you're able to have a level of fairness now in some ways where you're like oh come on man because automatically now we can watch stuff but I do understand the point where I've gone to games and we're all cheering and you're like oh VAR and you're like oh man it's just sucked all the energy I don't like it I don't like it I don't like it you know this is the way I think like again going back to right yeah it might the argument from their side is we have 25 or 30 % better decisions more correct decisions in the game than the referees are and you're like okay so we're getting more more of that but what you're losing like you said as a fan you know you're losing that passion when a ball hits the back of the net and the whole stadium erupts and the out point that's what people work hard every week every day to go to football to watch their team to have the share in that moment and you just got some just some geezer in the computer do you know what I mean like that sweating.

27:43Do you know, like when we cover FA Cup games and they don't have it, so much better.

27:48Mo Gilligan: Yeah, I've seen it with some of the League Cup games where you see someone and they're like, oh, that's offside and there is that. Or if it was VAR, well, it's good. But I know what you mean. I guess for some players they must enjoy it in the sense of it's like, I guess it gives the underdogs a bit more of a chance. I watched the Grimsby Man United game and there was a few decisions in there where people said oh it was VAR but you sit there and you're like yeah but it gives the underdogs a bit more of a chance that they wouldn't get if VAR was involved do you know what I mean do you think the people in charge are worried about the underdogs though do you know what I mean that's the truth yeah yeah yeah and also and also who are these people that are for VAR fans go and take a census now football fans as they're walking in yes or no so it's a no right okay let's run this back then let's get rid of it yeah I guess you're only a fan is when it works for you do you know what I mean yeah yeah when it's like I've gone to game I think I went to the Arsenal Man United game and we won 3-2 when Nketiah scored and Garnaccio's or Hoytland's goal got called offside and the sigh of relief was like oh thank god I wasn't on that side so like for you at 17 you became captain really young as well West Ham was that like 2003 I'm not too sure 2003 yeah 2003 what was that feeling like because there's one thing being a captain which is the leader everyone looks at you to make I don't know whether it's decisions or like you know pick up the team the morale but how was it being so young being a captain though because I can't imagine the pressures that there's probably people that are older than you yeah that are like got to listen to not that not so much listen to you but you're like I'm I'm the leader I think there's a little bit of that in the dressing room I was the youngest sort of maybe Jermaine Jermaine might have been younger than me in the dressing room but i was 21 i was in england international i'd played i played over 200 games i was i was an old 21 if you like and i was so it wasn't like matt like it sounds really young so there's a little bit a few senior players that probably knows how to join but it was at a time when the club was in a real tricky situation so there was no time to like how as it's going to work in the dressing room you know we're talking upton park days yeah up to the point yeah yeah yeah so I just sort of I just rolled with it and I took great pride in it you know and obviously ended up with us getting relegated on 42 points I talk about that in the book about you know I think a lot of fans think you know players a bit mercenaries and all that that was never the case with me like I felt everything I remember the feeling of of that relegation like you know the feeling of letting people down even though it was one of my best seasons in my career in terms of performance wise that I was playing well but you know I'm thinking my mind's spinning thinking of all the people that are going to lose their job because that's the realism of it you know what I mean and it burnt it hurt you know you don't want to go outside and I think a lot more footballers than fans think feel that you know that sort of I mean I always played with passion and whatever club I played for, the ones where it worked and the ones where it didn't.

31:06I always gave it all because that was in my nature. But yeah, that really, really was tough to go through that as a young man and feel that burn. And it was, yeah, it was really tough.

31:23Mo Gilligan: I could imagine it's the people that probably sometimes the fans also don't see. Whether it's that security guard who's worked there for 40 years and he says hello to you every time you go in or the person that might work in the canteen, for example, that is no longer there. And sometimes the heartbeat of those clubs, some of the fans don't even know who exists. They don't know that this person exists. Do you know what I mean? But when it comes to cost cutting, they're normally going to be the first to get cut in some ways. So 2003 was the same year that you also left Chelsea. so you left West Ham to go to Chelsea yeah was there any other clubs that was interested in you yeah so you got relegated in that year and I always found that that was also a time where when there were star players at a club that got relegated you knew that they would leave where it's kind of changed a little bit now some players kind of stay and if their club gets you know like re-promoted then they're back if for example like you see that with like Jamie Vardy for example when Leicester went down and came back up.

32:33Mo Gilligan: What were the other clubs that was interesting? So West Ham, I've talked about it in a book. West Ham were in financial trouble. So they needed to, so there's always, it's never black or white. There's always a little element of something. You know, the club needed to sell. They sold me, Glenn Johnson, initially, and then later on, Defoe and Carrick, there's a books balancing situation. So I needed to go. So there was options. And Manchester United were talking to my agent, Arsenal. Arsene Wenger. Arsenal had first refusal on me and Michael Carrick. Really? Yeah. Fucking hell. Yeah. Yeah. That's insane, man.

33:15But I'll put an asterisk on it, right? This wasn't Arsenal of like 2012 or 13. Yeah, yeah. You still had some fantastic players. Yeah, I feel like Gilberto Silva was there.

33:26Mo Gilligan: I think Fabregas was probably at the academy at them times. was Patrick still there? I think Patrick was there Patrick Gilberto Patrick Gilberto you signed God bless him Reyes Reyes you signed Reyes he had Omri, Bilton, Pires, Lungbo so you were stacked like anyway and Arsenal were the best team in the country and Manchester United and Chelsea were sort of this Chelsea were Roman coming at Chelsea do you know what I mean so that that was really the beginning of their transition wasn't it yeah because I remember they had players like Hasselbank Johnson yeah who was there I think Jeremy might have been there no Jeremy came in the summer did he come in the summer you came in yeah and I remember they finished fourth there was a good team there Jesper Gronkja but Roman come in so I think Arsenal turned us down Manchester United were still sniffing around and you're just sitting there waiting I'm going back to pre-season at West Ham and I'm waiting and I'm like, right, compartmentalise this.

34:33It's down to the club. If the club want me to go, they'll accept the bid. If they don't, I'm here. I'm ready to go. And Chelsea just cut. The bid happened. Get in the motor. Drive to Stamford Bridge. Negotiate. Took three hours, four hours. It was really quick. You know what I mean? Like it was, right, ready to sign. Quick medical. Met Claudio Ranieri. For me, as a kid, as I said, I supported Chelsea as a kid because my pal at school, his dad took us. He was a football fan. I'd never been to a game. So it could have been anyone I supported. So I always had that fondness for Chelsea. And it happened really quick.

35:16And it just felt going into the club, you was in the centre of the footballing universe. Like Roman was throwing, it was like champ manager. You know, when you've got the cheat code, we're signing the top scorer in it, Serie A. Damien Duff I'm walking in and you're thinking who's coming in this week right and and like you know I'm 21 so we're signing like you said Mutu top scorer in Italy I think he was at the time Crespo Argentina's number 9 Veron Argentina's number 10 it was literally like that and the work like football was changing and we was at the epic like the epicenter of it

35:52Mo Gilligan: and it was just it was exciting really exciting how did it feel for you because at this age you're the guy at West Ham you know you are the captain and then you go into this this new environment at Chelsea where you're looking around was McAlele signed around that time? McAlele came in at the same time yeah and now is is it was it what was what's that like for one yourself because I remember at that time I remember seeing you sign for Chelsea and I was like oh Raj who's going Chelsea? because I remember you was like you was West Ham's guy if that makes sense so now seeing you in now this position where it's like oh okay this is like a super team almost do you know what I mean it felt unfair every other fan I remember when we was all hoping nah this ain't gonna work out this ain't gonna work out and the minute you started to see them win games but also you knew the players they were signing Hernan Crespo and it was just like you know Robin on one side Duff on the other side it was almost like this is unfair but it's actually it's actually working they're now a new powerhouse I think the last team I remember seeing that with that I can remember was probably like Man City yeah so how was that for you being the guy at you know one team and then going into this new team where it's like you're saying there's no Fabrizio who's going to tell you you're probably finding out as like in the paper like you're saying what was that like yeah but for all the kids listening like you know there's none of this like refreshing the pages seeing what's going on like you had to wait till the next day and get down the shop 25p yes yeah yeah yeah so yeah you sort of like I distinctly remembered going into Harleton and thinking please stop signing players now do you know what I mean because I'm like there's more of us like I want to play yeah yeah yeah and I signed on the same day as Varun who was the big signing yeah you know he's like he was like Like you said, Argentina's number 10.

37:57You know, he was the man.

37:58Mo Gilligan: Would you say he was, at that point, was that their marquee signing? Yeah, yeah. He was a big global name. Global name. It didn't quite work for him at Manchester United, but before that, he was the best midfielder in the world. Yeah. That's why Manchester United signed him. They bought him from Parma, I think it was. Lazio. Was it Lazio? Yeah. Yeah, maybe he played at Parma. Definitely Italy. And he's a proper footballer, mate. He was like, but the Premier League just wasn't for him. Do you know what I mean? at the time because you know I try and I think European football is getting more and more aligned like Spain play like England play like Italy but people have to remember what it was like Italy played their own style they had their own swagger Spain had a version of football we were the most unique version of football and it didn't suit Verón's football which like his quality but in training I'm seeing him like wrap it into the forward with the outside of his boot turn it around the corner and I'm just like I'm just like a kid in a candy shop I can't wait to play yeah yeah but like we didn't get to play much together because he sort of faded away I was younger so I was getting stronger and playing more and more but I learned I did learn a lot from him I looked yeah he was he was a top guy as well how was the change when you was at Chelsea once Jose Mourinho came in because I felt like that was really the changing of the guard in some ways like watching it from an outsider we all knew that like ooh Chelsea got something here this is quite a good team like I remember when they had Duff on one side and Robin on the other side but I remember I'll never forget when Jose started his press conference and he was like yeah I'm the special one and I was like who's this guy man because I remember when he was the manager at Porto and they beat Man United and he ran down the touchline and then they had signed him as manager and I was like oh he's this guy man yeah yeah cocky man but then you know he had he had won it at that stage so what what was that like for you in the changing room because I really feel like that was kind of I don't know I really thought that really brought Chelsea into the I don't know it it made them go from like oh this is a team with some good players to I know this is now a powerhouse yeah yeah do you know what it was right you're right you're bang on right so we there's a lot of the players that people associate with Chelsea were already that were already at the club like Makaleli Frank John Gallas um Duffer was already there we signed Robin that summer but what he done Jose was he give us belief and convictions just the ultimate swagger he had just the way he just I think as a man I've played with some great managers I've played with some not so so great ones right what the great ones have got is they got an authenticity and an integrity with himself.

40:50And he was like, at the time, charismatic, good looking, he looked like, he'd come out of Hollywood. Do you know what I mean?

40:58Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barnett was swift. Yeah, because he was young as well. All year around town, young, you know, the mums wanted to watch him. You know, the players were hanging on of his word. And, and you, like, he meant it. You know, when he come in and said, I remember it, he said, listen, He said to us, he said, look, this is who I am. I'm a winner. If you follow me, we will win the league. And he put a date up when he thinks we're going to win the league. And he said it was such conviction. And then everything after that, just training, the intensity, like any great team needs to have a great leader.

41:38And he was just, you know, just bang on. So we all just followed him. and we enjoyed that little like shaking up English football shaking up European football you know because your Arsenal's your Liverpool's your Man United like you ain't supposed to be up here with us

41:56Mo Gilligan: do you know what I mean like we know what Chelsea are you win an FA Cup here and there and you play some nice football and it's a lovely part of London but you ain't supposed to be here so you got that sort of like we had a bit of that swagger do you know what I mean how intense was training when Jose came in because I'm always intrigued to when players talk about training because you know you you can describe it in a way that you're like yeah like you know you hear it sometimes where you're like you know every day you're competing essentially you know compete that's it competing and you you work out it was survival you know you if you weren't if you weren't at it you're being left behind like you know that was every day yeah I remember we played like a four a side, five a side games.

42:43And if you lost a block of three minutes, you'd be devastated. And the lads drove each other on. And I think, I remember coming off, I've never been so exhausted as coming off of the training pitch because you're like, and there was no running. All that running round, we're going to do 5 ,000 metre runs. It was just intense football-based running. and all of us got fitter, stronger, better tactically. And we were all young, so we were all sponging all the information. And still to this day, his marks left at Chelsea. Do you know what I mean? It's like a Shankly-like character, a Wenger-like character.

43:27Yeah. Where part of the culture is from, he made a big, big change.

43:32Mo Gilligan: It's like that philosophy that managers have like, you see it with Alex Ferguson, Arthur Wenger. You see the bit with Liverpool Klopp in some way. And Arteta now as well. Yes. Arteta's taking it on the next level. If he wins something this year, and I think he will, mate, he's going in the right trajectory. Yeah. Yeah. So at this stage of your career when you're playing for Chelsea, you also played for England as well. And, you know, when you look at that spell that you've played for England and people go back to that team and they're like, how did that team not win anything? I've spoken to Rio Ferdinand in the past and he said that at England at the camps it would be very clicky the United boys with the United boys and some of the Arsenal guys and the Liverpool guys what was it what was your experience like playing for England yeah there was like people go straight to that clickiness right it was a little bit of that but like you know birds of a feather flock together you know like the Chelsea boys would naturally gravitate to each other the Arsenal the Liverpool boys that would happen from a management perspective look in my head that should have been dealt with a bit better like that but that weren't the reason that weren't just the reason it was part of it the main reason was the trajectory that English football was on tactically and how we played wasn't right in my opinion like we was we played like a style of football that was like 80s, 90s style of football, which was great in that era.

45:12But as the game evolves, you have to change. Like we'd never had enough controlled possession of the ball at tournaments at certain times. You know, tactical now, it's when to go, when not to go.

45:24Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And, you know, I think it goes back to a fella called... I don't want to put it right on him. He's not with us. But his name was Charles Hughes, right? This is... I'm going to bore you now. But he played... he played a certain style of football, 4-4-2, like, you know, very much, you know, sort of, it's a bit like data, like how many times you get the ball into the box, reference how many times you score a goal, where you are when you defend, how many shots, like, very basic stuff, right? And it was in all of the coaching manuals throughout English football, and everyone sort of grew up on this way of playing.

46:01And I think, as football evolved around us, you know, there was never a, I don't think as England we've ever had a plan of how to keep the ball and keep possession, you know, maybe drop in an extra body in midfield if we're outnumbered there, you know, when to go wide, when not to go wide. We were good defensively because we could all do that. We knew that. But so I think tactically we weren't good enough. But ultimately that's it. And, you know, and I think that's, I think if people look up, look up that, I think that's why now with England, Gareth Southgate, I think they changed it around in 2010.

46:39We're producing players with technical ability. We're centre-hours who can go into midfield, full-backs, inverted. We're a lot more tactically better because we've... And I think, if anything, some of our younger players were technically and tactically as good as Brazilians and Spanish and things like that.

46:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. So there is other reasons, not just clickiness but that didn't help yeah you kind of see it in some some of the tournaments I'd want to probably say you the was it the Euros we just we just finished the Euros yeah the Euros where Sakhar was they're like playing left back left wing back because he can play on the left yeah and it's seeing the players that can adjust to that so quickly even though it's not their favourite position but it's not like a oh you've got him on the left oh he's going to struggle but we've got no one else it just works and you see them change and you see shapes and they're so honestly they're they're I'm quite unfashionable with saying this but I feel that these players now are so much better tactically smarter than us I think football goes like that I think the players now are better than we were like my colleagues I'm sitting with in the studio might disagree with me you know what I mean like we used to be better in our day I just think they are I think I think there's a reason world records get broke all the time because we as human beings find a way to improve and get better yeah there's no way of knowing whether Bukayo Saka's better than Paul Gascoigne or you know or something like that but I just think I just think they're definitely 100 % better tactically than we were yeah yeah I remember I think it might have been the World Cup your goal against is it Sweden yeah you chested it and volleyed it in.

48:33Mo Gilligan: And I would probably say that's one of the best England goals I think I've ever seen in my life in a major tournament. I think it's up there with Michael Owen against Argentina, probably put David Beckham's free kick in there against Greece. But to see your fearlessness when you played football, especially at international level, what was it like when you go out to those tournaments? Because again, it's like some people talk about the clickiness but there is such a pressure on an england team at every tournament and it's weird because you know now me and my friends are in the group and we talk about this team or that team or whatever but everyone puts their alliances aside for a summer of football and i can't imagine what the pressure is like i've heard you know past players talk about you know what the tabloids say and you know you now have like what people say online yeah um what was that like for you in your career when you was playing for england that pressure it's it's different like again nice it's um so basically the it's hard for young people listening the media landscape was different right there's no social media so there's no outlet to view your opinions right so everything funnels through the print media and the two or three channels that were covering it so you had a so if they had an opinion the four or five editors of the newspapers on a player that would spread out and that would become the narrative on a footballer on a team you know and then that becomes tribal as well because this this one's got affiliates with this one so and the players you have no right reply then you had the front pages of the newspapers who would you know their jobs did to you know get a story on a player so there'd be lots of stories you know for private life and things like that on players so there's distrust there's distance so the media we hated the media for that reason you know we felt that they was that they was wanting us to slip up because it felt like that.

50:44Yeah. Probably didn't, you know. You never know. And there's no right of reply. So you had to play as like, like Ashley Cole, my pal. He's one of the nicest men. Not in just football, just a nice guy. If you read stories about Ashley Cole, you'd think this guy was like, he was a serial killer or something. Do you know what I mean? Because he wouldn't speak to them. Cole, he just went, right, that's it. which I admire but he's principal do you know what I mean and so it was a different thing so my sort of so some players couldn't handle playing they'd be they'd be good in their Premier League clubs and that but as soon as they went from England I remember a player I wouldn't say his name but he he'd come off the bench we were playing a friendly and he'd come and the first thing he said I think I'm going to get a six in the paper tomorrow and I couldn't believe it.

51:39I was like, oh really, I didn't say nothing but I was like, what, that bothers you? Do you know what I mean? Because genuinely, genuinely, I don't, again, I had lots of thoughts as a footballer. You know, I'm not saying I was, you know, the greatest footballer of all time or anything like that but one thing was I had a thick skin and I don't know where that came from because I genuinely, and so that helped me when I played for England and I was like, I just didn't, I just played. You know, I just was like, you know, I just sort of, I got this way of, when I, before I got there, before the kick, before the kickoff, I was like, right, whatever will be, let it go.

52:21Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And then I went out there and played. Sometimes I played well, sometimes I didn't. And I, and I, and I think that was the main thing. And that's the difference between players who can perform at a very top level. Some people find their little, where they are, their atmosphere. Yeah. And they, I'm cool here. I can play at this club do you know what I mean yeah but nowadays to answer your question the players are they're sort of they have right of reply in the media they have PR management around them they know what to say so they can sound a bit robotic at times yeah you know but they're young men like that's excusable but we should like you either you just have to roll with it back in the day and whatever will be will be so you had one of your major injuries i think it was like 27 at this time was your knee injury yeah 27 28 27 yeah how did that feel at that age because i feel like i don't know what it's like now but i remember there used to be a time where people say oh you're at your peak yeah 27 to 30 is like the best football in years where yeah your body's in the best position you can probably run the best and your fitness, how did that start to affect your mental health in some ways?

53:38I separate my career in two, the first 10 years and the last 10 years because I was never the same player after the knee injury. I tried everything, Mo, I was on it. I literally went to see all the best knee surgeons, the best physios, the best chiropractor, osteopath. I went to see it a lot faith healers dieticians anything but I just couldn't quite get to the level I kept breaking down afterwards you know and and there's nothing worse for a footballer right and I don't want to say you get robbed of your best years I thought I've robbed of my best years as a footballer because I was going like that like that and listen it is your journey like maybe maybe I've won a few more trophies scored a few more goals you know but I feel sorry for the kids that get that knee injury I got before they've even kicked the ball and they're they're the ones that so they're the ones that might be driving a bus or do you know what I mean and they could have been that's the people I feel sorry for and that's the job we're in

54:46Mo Gilligan: you can't you know you can't run in the rain without getting wet sometimes you get injured so when I got the injury I knew it was a bad one because it was like it was the whole ligaments in the knee it was everything and but then you try and come back and like I said I'm just as proud of the last 10 years of my career you know I won a double at Chelsea come back had an impact scored the important goal at the back end of the season to help win that title I went to France had a great experience was that Lille right? Lille yeah you know and that was so that was probably my most consistent spell after the knee injury because I had a manager I couldn't train every day that was what it was so he would let me he would let me sort of get myself right and just get ready for the weekends is this when he was at Lille right?

55:38Mo Gilligan: yeah yeah he kind of let you train when you wanted to train and stuff yeah but but I couldn't get quite to the levels you know so it was tough tough mentally yeah but like I said you've got to be happy with what you've got in life like otherwise you know you know sometimes I ain't gonna lie sit there thinking if JT don't slip in that final I might have a Champions League and then I've got the full set I'll be alright but realistically I'm alright anyway do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah but it was tough mentally do you know what I mean and it coincided with the time I had my first child and so that becoming a dad you know and going into that stage of your life as well do you know what I mean so it was it's just part of your journey isn't it How impactful is that in terms of your career, that last 10 years of your career?

56:32Mo Gilligan: Because it's like you're saying, you've got the knee injury. It's allowing you to play, but not allowing you to do the things that you want to do in a sense of when you're playing football, where you know you're like, normally I could run that bit more or I could make that turn. I know I can make that pass, but when I'm doing it, it's not going the way it is. So how do you start planning for that last 10 years? Because it's like you're saying, you've got a child, you're playing football in France, and then you came back to Liverpool, and then you went off to America. Is that last 10 years where you're almost like, is it almost like a deadline in some ways for a footballer where you're like, okay I know I can't do the things I can do and I like playing this game yeah but also I have to start looking at the side of my career which is now my life after football yeah there's loads of things going through your head like the first things first I wanted my I wanted that blind ignorance like where I was gonna beat beat father time or fate or destiny and I'm gonna be the one I'm gonna I'm gonna find the solution to make this so I don't keep pulling my hamstrings and or something like that.

57:47So there was that as well. And like I said, I went all around the world trying to find something. And then there's also the fact where, you know, your responsibilities, your children come along. I'm like, you know, I've got to make sure that I keep going, keep my body as good as I can to monetize, to secure my family and hopefully my grandchildren's future and all that. There's that as well. You know, people forget about that with footballers. You know what I mean? When they talk about that loyalty and all that, it can end in an instant and you've got this ability, this God-given talent, where you can change not just your trajectory of your life, but your kids and your, you know, do you know what I mean?

58:25And as a man, that's ultimately what you're here for. So all of that's going on. And I'm still trying to enjoy it, right? And so the Lille thing was great. I loved it. You know, we nearly won the league. Beautiful. I experienced life in France going back to West Ham and then when I was at Villa this is when I knew the game was I can remember sitting one of the few games I was chosen to play that season I got myself fit as a Premier League game drove to Villa Park and I used to have a problem with my hip and my hip just seized up in the car so I'm in the car park and I'm like the stewards there have opened and he's like we're going to the stadium I'm like, I can't get out of my car.

59:15So I'm having to pick up my, to get out of the car, I'm picking up my thing because it just, I don't know, it's just frozen up or something. And I'm getting out of the car and I'm walking into this changement thinking, I'm going to try and play in the Premier League. I couldn't even get out of my car. So I was like, from that moment I knew, right, I'm on the slide now. And then I managed to go to America and play. but that was almost a beautiful thing for me and my family because the football was a lower level it was a beautiful place Florida Tampa make some great people

59:50Mo Gilligan: I played on for and do you know where it was I played on for another two and a half years and the level helped and the sun helped but it was nice to sort of be alone with your family but also be a footballer coming down getting ready for the next part of your life you know what I mean yeah of course and I'd probably say that's the happiest I've been in my football career the last three years yeah forget all the trophies the World Cups and England and all the you know all the moments that was that was brilliant because no one ever talks about that last part of their footballing career because I guess for some players it's like it's over but also it's you know you're moving a family around from country to country to different lifestyle different schools different friends knowing that you're like probably going to go back home yeah you know i mean um where you are now in your middle of your career in some ways though as as a pundit is really interesting because you got a lot of footballers either go into coaching or punditry yeah and i feel like when i watch you on tnt sports you are like you're you're a player's player you know i can't imagine the amount of you know players that come up to you and say like oh you're right man yeah yeah You know, you sometimes see it when you guys are on the sideline yourself.

1:01:11Mo Gilligan: Martin Keown, Owen Hargreaves, Rio Ferdinand when he was on there. How is punditry for you? Because now you are giving opinions on not just the game, but on players. That must be quite difficult in some ways. Yeah, I mean, it's getting easier, Mo, because the longer the years go on, the lesser the players I've played against or with, you know what I mean? But you know what? I've got a golden rule, right? I don't try and grab headlines. do you know what I mean that I don't do that I try and if a player's made a mistake it's our job to say this is what went wrong this is what went wrong and then also if we can elaborate on why it might have gone wrong you know because then you're putting the viewer into the to the seat of you know footballer he just come back from injury he wasn't sharp enough you know he's not good at this he needs to get better at defending the far post anything like that so So I try and think, if I'm saying something about a player, I'll be okay if they're sitting next to me.

1:02:15Do you know what I mean? And I try and empathise with them. And that's one thing I feel for these boys, mate. There's so many angles, mate. You can't hide. You know, you can't hide. And we got our little machines, like pointing arrows at them, like, you know, checking how many times they check their shoulders. So there's a lot of pressure on them from us. So I try to do it from a place of like, and if anyone's up, you know, if anyone I've said anything out of line, like, you know, genuinely, I'm sorry. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to upset people.

1:02:51Mo Gilligan: I don't feel like you've never come across that when I've ever watched it though. Yeah. I feel like you gave a great perspective as a player. Yeah. You're a bit like Thierry Henry as a pundit where you played the game and you can talk about experiences of like when you, you know, you get the ball and, you know, you're like, cool. That is a very hard thing to do. But also, I think there was a game at Leicester and Arsenal played Leicester. And I remember you speaking about Wernieri and you were saying it from your perspective. I remember when I was his age playing football. So I've always seen you as like a person that can give a great opinion.

1:03:29Mo Gilligan: that's saying like when you do that yeah that is very hard to do or it's very impressive how someone's done that as opposed to like you're saying grabbing headlines for the sake of headlines and i feel like as a fan we love that because we see the footballers that are like oh right i'm getting an insight that i don't even know you know i'm just seeing it and just being i did not pass the ball there and you can say that's it's impossible i wouldn't have been able to do. With punditry though, is it, I've always wanted to ask this because is it learnt or is it just natural? Does that make sense to talk about football?

1:04:07Do you know what, right? This is, and I don't, any footballer thinking about going into punditry, don't do this. I'll tell you what I did. So, I didn't want to be a pundit. I'm doing my coaching badges. I'm like, my agent's going, just do a few, you know, see how you like it. you know, earn a few quid, you know, like, it's a good job, right? So, they've asked me to do, like, the, like, let's come and do a little bit of media training, elocution, not elocution lessons, but make sure, you know, you pronounce the, you know, I just thought to myself, no, I don't want to be that guy. Like, you know, like, like, talk, I'm going to talk how I talk.

1:04:49Yeah. I'll maybe get some names wrong.

1:04:51Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And I just think it will be better. So I said, no, I'll be right. I'll come on and just do what I do. I'm just going to try and be natural. So I went onto the set with no, no, like, I wasn't worried. I'm like, this, this don't work. Do you know, I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared. I'm like, well, I know, I know football. Yeah. I've been doing it since I was, could walk. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, right. Where's the buttons? What do I press? Okay. That's it. All right. That's all I need to know. Then I went out there and done it. And six years later, they're still inviting me back.

1:05:22So, so, that that just works for me do you know i mean like like i i know i know myself like we'll have a game right and i'm watching other pundits and they'll be writing stuff down this one and i know if i do that i'm not seeing it i'm doing i mean i'm sort of like i see yeah so yeah and so i like to i like to think that's definitely not the way to do it but it worked for me so yeah I'm still here. I'm still getting a job.

1:05:52Mo Gilligan: How demanding is the punditry? Because it's like you're saying today, you had the game last night and you've got to watch a bunch of games. Do you want to answer what I tell my wife? I tell her it's so demanding, man. I'm tired, babe. When I come in, I just I need time. It ain't demanding at all. It's the best job in the world, mate. The people around us, I'll give them a shout out, right? Like the cameramen, the sound people, the analysts and all of that, like they are brilliant. They do everything right. So, you know, all I've got to do is watch football and see something and be able to explain it to the man in the street.

1:06:36And that's crucial, I think. I think because like you said, when Darren Fletcher asked you about the pockets, right? I know what he means. And you might think you know what he means, but he might be meaning something else so you've got to be able to say it in a way that they can relate to do you know what I mean and that's the only things you need everything else is taken bring you nice teas and biscuits to watch it it's a blinding job

1:07:01Mo Gilligan: and I guess that's where punditry is like so vital to the game for the armchair viewer because you're telling us experiences you're telling us what our player's going through or even seeing you know your reactions as footballers when the goal has been scored and we sit there and watch that and you're like, oh right, that must have been a good goal if someone reacted like that because I feel like what can happen now is you can watch a YouTuber say something and you'd be like, oh yeah, but you didn't really play the game. And I think every opinion is great in the game of any sport. I think the fans' opinion is important but punditry is something that when you watch the game, my girlfriend would ask me afterwards, she'd be like, your team won, why are you watching all this stuff afterwards and I'm like listen I need to know what the fans are saying I want to know what the players are saying I want to look at the stats like obviously you know in the time this has been recorded Arsenal haven't scored a goal yet and I'm watching how many shots have been on target I've never done that before it's mad isn't it yeah there's no hiding place and I'm like no Pabe's like Slavia Prague took three shots on target I don't think you realise she's like yeah but it didn't score I'm like yeah but it's not good is it um so for you now in the position where you are when you start to look at your end in some ways because i guess it could be quite easy to get very comfortable yeah in a position as a pundit where you really enjoy it there's a great production team around it but is there and like you're saying you've done your you're doing your coaching badges and stuff yeah um so where where do you look at your career because it's like you saying you you have your career in two halves where you've got your first half of your career and your second half of your career but then where you are now within your career is like your first half is we all know you as joe cole the footballer where there'll be another generation who like i i grew up just watching some people just as a pundit yeah i didn't watch them as a footballer do you know what i mean and how do you start to look towards that second part of your career now because there's the comfortability of being a pundit but i guess there must be a little like itch where you're like oh like i think you know you look at other coaches that your age mates and you're like oh you know what i don't mind stepping into those shoes do you know what i mean i know exactly yeah i mean that's like like writing a book i think the reason the reason i wrote a book is because you get to know i'm 44 next week in a few days actually and um and you sort of like you retired retired six seven years ago now right so you're like your identity so tied up in being a footballer right so the last six seven years you know i think that's really tough for footballers i know nobody's gonna be upset because we had the best job in the world but you you're like you like you're these heroes you're putting a pedestal you're going to battle with your mates every day you're playing like it's amazing and you're known as I was known as Joe Colder footballer you know and then so sort of the last six seven years I've done all the things I wanted to do outside of football you know like like you know done some mad things for charity like you know climb Mont Blanc cross the channel on a kayak rode a bike to Amsterdam had a box all these things like while I was looking now I was searching for something to replace the football because the punditry don't don't really like, it can't, do you know what I mean?

1:10:40Because you're not in the battle. I'm watching the battle. I'm at the Coliseum with my popcorn

1:10:45Mo Gilligan: and I'm having a good time. So that I am drawn back to football. I'd like the idea of shaping some young players' careers and teams and doing something incredible. The only thing I know, the only thing I know, but what I know best, which is football. So that is drawing me back so that but then writing you know writing the book with Sam Wallace the journalist who I think has done a great job you know you start it's the legacy you leave behind I wanted it for my kids because they live a very different life to where I did growing up you know they so you go through all of that and you do start thinking and it's through the process of writing this book has made it maybe more thinking towards coaching management um you know something competitive more competitive because that's that's ultimately what what thrives because i heard when you play sports that like never leaves you no the competitiveness like in all aspects of i'm a big fan of sports but i'm a big fan of sports behind the scenes i love watching documentaries of how sports people do the things that they do as well as yeah on the basketball court the football field or you know on or whatever their you know track and field but for me there's something really interesting of how that person ticks off it but also understanding that that competitiveness never goes like when i've done soccer raid all of you pros like will fully smash into some of our celebrities because and i sit there i'm like that's just how that they play yeah you know what i mean yeah it'll be no different if I was on stage and I'm gonna I'm like no I'm gonna do this seriously it might be a let's say it was the same like oh you know Joe's gonna do some comedy and yeah man calm down man like why why why why are you doing so I'm like this is my arena yeah so I I have to do it to a level that I'm I can't switch off from yeah like I remember when we played soccer radio using the World 11 and I remember Dave Dave the rapper he came off and he was like Joe Cole he's the real fucking deal like we was all sitting there and we all kind of left the picture was like nah Joe he's not he's not fucking around but it was a way that you it's not to say that you would have lost it but the way you still had it was almost like I think you could still play now you know like like I reckon you could still get on the pitch right now how hard is it to leave that competitive nature in every aspect of whether it's the the soccer aid or whether it's the the coaching or just playing the monopoly how hard is that to just detach from yeah you know i mean in some ways yeah i mean well it's really tough and and i really admire like what you do to stand up because you know i you I love Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr, Shane Gillis, Mickey Flanagan.

1:13:54I've seen you. I like your stuff as well. Yeah, thank you. I went over and that fascinates me because you're standing up there by yourself. When I go out to perform, I've got everyone with me. I've got a whole team with me. You know what I mean? And not just the lads. So I suppose if someone turned around to you and said, you can't ever do stand-up comedy again tomorrow, you've got to clap the crowd and that's it you're never going to do it like it's going to leave a hole in you right

1:14:22Mo Gilligan: you know and every footballer when they leave when they leave the arena I don't care what they say you know they might not love all of football but it leaves a little hole and you've got to fill that hole with something and and and and and you've got to find it you've got to find it what it is you know what I mean like fulfilled in my life my family friends I can't sit still I'm always out doing things ducking and diving but that competitive that is a real tough thing for a footballer to walk away from and nobody listening to this is going to be poor footballers we've rung the bell there's no doubt about it we're good but that is the next challenge for me finding something which can get the juices flowing as much I might run for Prime Minister or something Mayor of Paddington but Joe it's been such a pleasure to have you on on the podcast pleasure man I've been a big fan ever since I was a kid watching you play football to sit down and properly speak to you and understand the book and the book is out now I'm guessing in all the bookshops and online audio books and all that good stuff and another thing quickly before we go because it's quite listen it's quite self-indulgent to write a book you know and I've got so much out of it no it's not man this is your memoir 100 % man I know but that's for me that's my mad stuff but I decided to give all the proceeds from what I would get to charity two charities on side youth zone which is something I've worked someone I've worked with before so they they build youth centres and youth clubs in underprivileged areas in London, you know, get kids off the street, sports, the arts, all that type of stuff.

1:16:18And another one is It's Never You, friend of mine. It's a charity which helps families who've had terrible diagnosis with their kids, terminal diagnosis, and that support network around them. And he's lobbying the government to try and get more funding to help. Because, you know, the worst thing that can happen to you, as far as you know, is if something happened with your child, you know what I mean? And there should be massive support around that. So I chose them two charities because they're close to my heart, but also it's real organic. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, man. So yeah, so all of that.

1:16:54So hopefully a lot of positivity comes from it.

1:16:57Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. Let's make this a Sunday Times bestseller, man. That's the plan. 100 % Joe, man. Listen, I'm really excited to read the book as well. Yeah, man, please do. You've had a career that I've been able to really follow. I think there's some idols that, you know, I supported Arsenal because of Ian Wright. And then I think I then had to play catch up of his life afterwards. Yeah. Sorry, of his life before. But I've seen your career play out in front of my eyes to like play against you at Soccer Aid, even though it's like a little charity thing. But then also still watch you on television and be a pundit.

1:17:31Mo Gilligan: So it's really nice to see how your career has flourished as a footballer, seeing moments that I remember when you scored that goal against Sweden and I remember like it's different because you ain't got the YouTubes so you have to be like oh play it again man play it again like and I personally don't think you can get spoken about enough because you're outside the box as well isn't it yeah bad boy goal man but no it's just a pleasure to see like where your career is also going to with things like punditry and after football and I feel like after football is where I guess also as a footballer you get to live your life you get to eat the food that you want to eat and travel where you want to travel and stuff so yeah I'm really excited to read the book man but Joe it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast my friend really really appreciate and this my friend has been your beginning middle and end thank you very much thank you Giza appreciate you man hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace