From Blueprints to BAFTAs: Adjani Salmon

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's happening people? My name is Mo Gilligan and this is the Beginning, Middle and End podcast. Now this is where I'm going to be asking some of my favourite people about how they started, where they are now and the legacy they want to leave. Our guest this week is a Jamaican-born, British-raised actor, writer, director and BAFTA Award winner. Initially on track for architecture, he veered into filmmaking through homemade sketch videos and started a production company in Jamaica. That's right. You know he's multi-award winning Dreaming Whilst Black, which started as a low budget web series and turned into one of the most critically acclaimed important TV shows of our time.

0:46Mo Gilligan: Please welcome to the podcast. It's Ajani Salman. Welcome to the podcast, man. Thanks for coming on, first and foremost. I know you had an absolutely crazy one getting here. Yeah, yeah. London traffic. It's that thing where, like, you know, the pleasures of living in London is like, oh, it's great, man. You can get delivery whenever you want. But listen, when there's a strike or something's happening, this whole city shuts down, you know? Oh, them all it are. Like, it's going on, but behind the scenes, it's shut down. It's like, listen, I know you were sitting there probably thinking, oh, we could have done this on Zoom, you know?

1:18Mo Gilligan: Bro! oh man I could have done this on the zoo you know but no your beginning let me get this straight you were born in London yeah but you were raised in Jamaica yeah until what age um so I came back at 18 for uni and then went back at 21 like as soon as I graduated I went back home oh okay and came back at 23 so you were raised in Jamaica so when you came back to London you was 18 at that point yeah yeah yeah oh really yeah But then you're born in London. Yeah. Nobody's the other way around, didn't they? Yeah, no, I know. You know what? My mother was just, because my whole family kind of moved back to Jamaica before, long before I was born.

2:05Yeah, I was the only one here.

2:06Mo Gilligan: Okay. So when I was born and I guess my mother was just, because she said she spent like the first year of maternity leave in Jamaica. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she came back and after a while she was just like this whole country this is ghetto like what am I doing here like why why am I here by myself when my whole family is in Jamaica yeah yeah yeah so she just boom pack up and dip yeah well his mum back there now yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah she's chilling bro she said that fuck this bro it's too cold man like swimming in the she goes swimming in the morning in the sea like yeah yeah yeah it's about the same as the leisure centre yeah yeah it's lovely but you got where you got someone's plaster floating in the water so how did how did it shape your perception of coming to london because it's like i guess if you were born here but you were raised in jamaica it must have been quite an interesting perception because i guess you're like well i'm i'm born in this place i just ain't i guess obviously coming back and forth yeah like i guess that look like coming back to really live and settle it must have uh yeah that's why i said normally the other way around do you know what i mean when you get older i feel like where your mom is now do you know what i mean so what was that first early stage like of like coming coming back you know it's weird because obviously like so like there were a couple summers where i came up for the summer and there are a couple summers where my cousins visited jamaica but when i came back to live yeah it was the first time i realized oh ral like me and you man are not the same yeah yeah yeah this whole thing and that was even my first real introduction to like funky house and grime and all them never hear none of them song there so this is like what year we saying when it's 2007 2007 ah yeah yeah man P's and Q's power and all that yeah yeah yeah I was like raw boy this you know like it kind of Jamaican but not but it kind of have its own vibe I'm like oh this has its own energy but that was the same that was just my whole thing and it's weird because like I went to a really good high school in Jamaica so coming here and everyone was like oh sorry pardon and I'd repeat myself and it's so I can't understand could you speak slower?

4:34Mo Gilligan: And I was like, but I'm speaking English. It's just your accent. It's a bit, you know. And I was thinking, what? These times I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I speak very good English where I'm from, you know. But it just, so yeah, it was just that foreignness of like, oh, like I was born here, but I'm not. Like my sensibility is not. Even just something that's whining, bro. Again, Jamaica, you grow up at Jamaica, you go and party. you know, you go and party your wine. You never ask for a number. You just, you know, catch your wine, dirty wine, play it, boom, catch your wine and gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:09Come here now and a wine is like a thing. It's like, rah, like what? What, did you get a number? I was like, well, no, we'll just dance. I was like, no, but obviously you see how she was grinding on you.

5:20Mo Gilligan: Blah, no, you can get that still. I was like, but it's just a dance. So literally my whole view of, of, of, of even just, like growing up in Jamaica and then coming here and people saying, oh, I'm Jamaican. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, but you don't move like me. No, like, but I guess you're Jamaican. You know what I mean? But people don't like hear that conversation because like, oh, yeah, you're Jamaican. But I'm like, but you ain't never been though. Like, or you been when your grandma died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How connected are you to the thing? So it was just an interesting, it's weird because I think now I can view both countries objectively seeing like being here long enough to like look back and be like Rod that don't make sense and growing up in Jamaica and coming here and be like wait this stuff isn't quite right either but yeah so I can't lie you know what was insane when you were talking the way you were just switching between accents because I've only ever seen you speak and seen you talk with your natural accent so when you talk I'm like, bro, you sound like Mandem.

6:31Mo Gilligan: Like, Mandem, Mandem. Doesn't even sound like you're even trying to put on the accent. Like, I was like, wait, wait, bro, where am I? Obviously, I know you're an actor. But like, the way you're switching, I was like. Nah, yo, that was because that was my existence. Right? It was like, to go uni. I'm like, well, if this Jamaican accent don't work, then my father got to learn something else. So I didn't learn an accent to perform. I learned an accent just to be understood. so again it was just like well my cousins my cousins are from ends in it like they grew up in edmonton then they moved up to enfield so i'm like right so you might talk like this so i guess this is the way or at least they could understand that

7:23Mo Gilligan: because normally it's like it's the other way around like i'm saying it's like yeah You speak like this and you say, yo, what, go on, you say it, my brother. Yeah. Yo, my way you say, brother, yeah, all right. You go, oh, okay. If you go in the barbershop, for example, where people are predominantly born here, but when they're around their family and their friends, then they really switch on the patois, do you know what I mean? Whereas I feel like you're doing it the opposite way, where I'm like, oh, all right. I've never seen it. It's actually like this before. So you come back around like 20...

7:57Mo Gilligan: Sorry, sorry. 2007. 2007, 2008, around funky house time and stuff. And then you have a master's in film directing. So yeah, that's when I came back in 2013. That's when you came back in 2013. So you went back again. Yeah, my God, that place. I remember coming here and the biggest shock for me was... So start uni, like September, October. and I woke up and it was dark and I was like oh okay cool right it's dark at 7am went to uni left uni at 6 and it was dark and I was like the sun never shined the whole day like what what go on like it was miserable so like as soon as every summer every Christmas I went home because I'm like this is dead bro you know what I mean even when my cousins were doing up like Ayana Pah Marbella all of them you know what I mean I was like brother trust me nothing about like Jamaica Independence weekend.

8:54Mo Gilligan: So like y 'all do that I'll go home. So yeah so I literally went back home like a week after graduation and came back in 2013 for film school. Okay. Yeah cause that in Jamaica I kinda found film. Funnily enough ironically through a British cousin. He was in he came to Jamaica one summer so obviously cause I was working on you know, I have a little car. So I was just driving him around to like film shoots and stuff. To be fair, I was loving it, bro. Like, man, I photograph like models and thing and I'm like, right, I don't mind. I'm just here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Enjoying. You know what I'm saying?

9:32And that's what was my introduction to film. Because I was like, oh, right, like, well, you get paid. You get paid to do this. And he's like, yeah, yeah. So after a while, I was like, oh, man, you know what black families stay, bro. Like, you can't work in something without a degree in the thing.

9:47Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So after a while, I was like, right. Because my mum was on to me like, oh, you know, when are you going back to architecture? And then I was like, oh, I'm going to study. She's like, right. Because you studied architecture first. Yeah, that's when I was here first. So coming back to study film almost like legitimised this thing I was trying. So where was the love for architecture? Because that's a very specific thing to want to study. Yo, but you have to understand, bro. in a Jamaica is like doctor, lawyer, criminal you get me? Even me studying architecture doing technical drawing and building technology those are for like they're not as fast but at least they're constructive with their time we were in the back of the school so that wasn't even seen as a thing but it was like a respectable like something if you're going to study something thinking like, oh, okay, it's not an engineer, but, you know, it's all right.

10:49Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So to be fair, I think it was the love of creating and the love of, like, design, because that's what we did. Like, we invented buildings. And even throughout my architecture project, without knowing it, you have to pitch. Your final year exam is, like, a 10-minute pitch. And you kind of have to weave a story of, like, your inspiration to what inspired you to make it look like this versus like that. Yeah, of course. So I guess subconsciously, I was always storytelling and always creating, which I thought was fun, which is why it didn't really work out when I went back home.

11:26Because I could go back home and them say, yeah, so right now we have built a scheme, two bed, one bath, kitchen plant, kitchen living room, what am I going to save money? And I'm like, yeah, but what's the inspiration behind this site? And then I said, brother, just put a bathroom between the bedroom. like nobody asks no question like where try sell units and i was like but i mean myself i'm like but i studied in hingland so i'm not just doing that yeah i mean so but that's architecture is governed by like highest sale price lowest cost price so i kind of was like no i'm gonna really like that because it felt like the creativity had gone yeah i guess it's

12:09Mo Gilligan: the business side of the creativity yeah yeah it's a business side of the creativity whereas i think at least in film the business side is still a journey what do you think yeah what do you want to create and we can find out how much money we can do that so i think that's why film kind of spoke to me more as like oh i'm being paid to be creative like actually the more creative my work is the more you like it yeah of course so I think that's why I was like oh actually I think I can work doing this but who knows I'm gonna know if I get richer I'll ever design my house and yeah I guess it's like you've got a great thing to fall back on that's still in your field of creativity do you know yeah that's what my mother sees in worst case scenario she'll be like so architecture yeah right because I think that's the thing of if you're in one field as a creative and you want to fall back on something at least it's still parallel as opposed to if you've done this and you're like i want to be an engineer now it'd be like that is so yeah totally different your numbers and all this other stuff so i guess with architecture you're still able to have you know like how you can envision and imagine what you can do with like writing i imagine that the person looks like this and they sound it's going to look like this to the point where the house is like, I'm going to put this piece together.

13:35Mo Gilligan: Oh, for sure. And it's transferable because even when writing, we have to imagine the sets. Yeah. Like what does Kwaabina's family house look like? What does Amy's flat look like? What does it say? Depending on how Amy's flat looks, what does it say about her as a character? So that is transferable skills. You know what I mean? It's just not as obvious. Yeah.

13:59Mo Gilligan: so you go back to jamaica yeah you come back again you've gone to film school um how did how did film school now start really inspiring your creativity because i guess there's one thing being around lack-minded people and you're like we're all studying the same thing but i guess now like did it help coming back to london where it's not like jamaica where it's It's like, look, creativity. We ain't got time for that. We've got to build a house. The bathroom goes there. Whereas how important was that for you in your early journey of being in a film school with other people that do the same thing?

14:37Mo Gilligan: You know what? Film school was a safe space to find my creative voice, right? Because it's like you make seven or eight films throughout the year. Each script, each acting choice, each edit is being interrogated as to just why. Yeah. Like, why is it a square and not a circle? You change it to a circle, why is it a circle and not a square? Like, so in that way, it was just a safe space to experiment. But weirdly enough, like, I was the only black kid in my year. Yeah. Right? So almost the element at that had upon it too, right? Where I remember once I made this film. Again, it's just some stupid project, bruv.

15:17Mo Gilligan: You know what I mean? It's just an exercise, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, we need to explore, like, thriller. and I was like, oh man, what if I make this thriller thing but it's like some homophobic revenge film? Like, you know, this gay couple's going to get back this homophobic guy. Sounds good still. Bro, it was a thing. I was like, what's that, boy? But all of a sudden, that went from an exercise to be like, is that really what it's like in Jamaica? Ah, I see. What? All these actors are British. How you reach back at Jamaica and homophobia? they're like, I just thought this was cool.

15:53And I remember my tutor saying, look, man, you're the only black guy here. So whatever you say about black people, everybody here going to believe is true. Yeah. You get me? Like, so just be mindful of what you're making. So even that, there had to be this consciousness of like, oh yeah, me and everybody are friends, but like no one was questioning the brother who made, because you know, every film school, there's unfortunately some sexual assault thing, you know, revenge film. Somebody got to get 40 ,000 pounds because their mum is dying and they now have to rob some shit. Like, all of that's being made.

16:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:37Mo Gilligan: But nobody questioned if, oh, is that the plight of white people? You have to rob a jewellery store to pay for your mum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody asked that question. But for me, now it's, does the whole of Jamaica have to deal with this? I guess it's like your ideas open up the conversation to your background, which is like, no, no, it's just a crazy idea that I have. But it doesn't link to my actual background. It's just, we don't need to start a conversation. Yeah, we don't need to have a conversation. I was just trying to do something interesting. Like, you get me? Everyone was trying to shoot up something.

17:13Mo Gilligan: I'm just thinking, well, how do you flip it? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was also that. But I think, again, because there was a safe space of film school and my tutor really being like, bro, like, you know, be mindful of what you're doing. Yeah. It allowed me to find my creative voice. And I remember even one time at my grad film, actually, my tutor was like, you know, I really love when your actors are not talking. So just, you know, cut out as much dialogue as you can. and I was like but that's I directed them to talk like that he's like yeah nah just cut it out and I was like what am I a dickhead bro like you know but weirdly enough I was like oh let me try this one scene where I rip out all the dialogue and weirdly enough it worked because it was about this father son relationship and I'm like oh yeah but if you know each other that well enough you don't have to speak to communicate.

18:18And I was like, oh, actually, I like that. So a lot of my, like, I guess my more dramatic work, my film work, is barely any dialogue. Because I'm like, oh, because people know each other. We don't need to talk. So it just helped shape my, like, style as a filmmaker. Yeah. Which, without the pressure of viewership, without the pressure of trying to get into festivals, you know people in youtube comments like i could just kind of find myself before i did all of that which i think was great because you speak of festivals but like

18:53Mo Gilligan: like with your your graduation your short film he's father's son that premiered at like festivals cans black star montreal world festival when okay research come on you don't have the ipads for show you yeah but you see like when you start film school does that give you a real insight to behind the lens as opposed to being on it because i guess it's like if you're writing from the perspective of okay i have this vision and it looks like this and i'm writing it and i see behind the lens and you know like you you're also front facing as well do you know i mean you're not someone that's just like yeah like i let the actors do their thing yeah you're someone's like no no i'm on screen too i'm also gonna write um how does that start to like when you're because it's like because then you're getting critiqued on the thing of like okay let's have less dialogue there and but you're like no no no but i envision this to look a certain way to the point where you're like fuck it i'll be in the thing do you know what i mean yeah and then you start getting like you know you get that recognition of being at like you know certain premieres and all this kind of stuff how does that world really how does that world look because i guess it's like i only know it from a side of like us being at the baftas where we're on the screen do you know what i mean it's nice to be here whereas like what i also started to realize is when you go to those things for everyone who's behind the screen, the execs and people who are producers, they're networking.

20:31Mo Gilligan: We don't know this. We're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're networking and like, hey, I've got this project. Do you want to get onto this? Or they're not really there for that stuff. So, so going to those things early on, did you, what, what was your perception of some of those events? Cause you're, you're like the person where it's like, oh, keep your eye on this person. So did you get, what I'm trying to say is, did you get caught up in the, the, the food and the drinks? Or was you like, ah, let me network as well? Bro, I ain't lying to you, I'm not good at networking.

20:59And I remember the first award ceremony, I won't name it, call me now, I load up them ting. But my agent just called me and said, we got nominated, great, food, drink, I'm like, sick. Got it with my hungry belly, ready. Because I'm like, I'm about to chop, bro. Get there now. You know, I saw you there. Yeah, bro. you see the little piece of thing and they're like, oh, this is the salmon strip. And I'm like, bro, I'm hungry, bro. What? Two bites and this is done. So now I'm starving. Is that the one I've seen you at?

21:40Mo Gilligan: Is it that one? Yeah, bro. Oh, bro. Okay, yeah, yeah. You know the food, bro. I don't get it. It looks good. It looks great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm like, bro. It won't fill you. It won't. No, it's a snack on a plate. I was just there this whole time like, oh, man's hungry, dog. Man can't even really enjoy this event. So then by the time the second one, I'm like, boom, I'm busting a whole fish and chips before I get to the venue. You know what to do. You know what I mean? But I didn't, film school don't teach you that. Film school teaches you how to make a film. And it's only one and two, like, thankfully I went with my agent that first round of kind of stuff.

22:16So I'm there and my agent's like, yo, yo, yo. Because obviously I'm hanging out with you, man. I'm like, oh, where's the black people? So at my age, it's like, yo, yo, yo, let me introduce you to some old white men. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These men do have the bunny. These men have the bunny. Yeah. So that was, it was a whole, that whole experience was just a learning curve for me. Because I was just kind of like, just like catapulted into that space, you know, warm up. So I was just there for the vibes, man.

22:44Mo Gilligan: Because that's kind of like, I guess where, it's not where you are now, but like your middle, if we look at the last you know like six seven years of like the dreaming whilst black was a web series right came out in 2018 um you co-created it you wrote it directly you starred in it nine parts um so when when you're when you have something that everybody's like you need to have you seen this have you seen that it's going to be the thing how does that pressure start to feel because if because the reason why i ask is because in our field of if you write it direct it and star in it like i've i've seen other counterparts of of the industry and people that are not from our background and you're like oh that person wrote it the director they starred in it and like for example you know it's like when you go to la and you get in the room and and they're like, oh my God, like, have you seen this thing?

23:44Mo Gilligan: And you're like, oh, cool. That's the thing everyone's talking about. Cool. But knowing early on when you've created something and you are the, you know, you've wrote it, directed it, you starred in it. How does that pressure start to feel? Because again, in every room you're in, they're almost asking you like, how did you do it? What's the trick? Bro. How, do you know what I mean? Where did I get funding? Yeah, yeah. Who funded it? I was like, so funny. Really? Yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. You know what it is? It's weird because I've operated from negative energy. Meaning like the minute I decided I wanted to do film, even my friends were like, bro, you're funny, but let's be serious in it.

24:33Mo Gilligan: You're an architect. And then it went from that to like my family being like, bro, you've been doing this for a few years now and you're still broke. Maybe you should beg for your job back. And I'm like, nah, film school. And it's like, nah, okay, even after film school, still nothing. My mom's calling me, oh, you know, son, how are you doing? I'm like, yeah, mom, I'm filming this plastic surgery video. She's like, right, you sure you don't want to come back to architecture? like you know I mean I've spent like nine years on the track just trying to prove people wrong yeah so by the time you see me at these awards and people are like oh my god this is amazing yeah I'm like oh well you like it because I'm used to everybody not liking it or not believing in me so now when people are believing in me and they're like I remember even one time I went in literally pitched the idea top of the dome I was like oh do you have anything else and I had nothing and I was like um yeah I was thinking of basically remaking Desmond's but make it about a Caribbean takeaway restaurant run by Jamaicans in Peckham that's brilliant I'll get Christian in touch just exchange emails I was like well you like it hmm I how do I motivate myself when no one I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong yeah and I was like Rod like what does that even say about me the fact that I've spent like 10 years just trying to prove people wrong so that was the pressure of like oh what's motivating me now yeah and I guess I had to go back to like like actually bro you did this because you just liked it like you didn't do this that you didn't actually do it to prove people wrong you try to be successful to prove people wrong but now that you've done that you can just go back to doing it because you love it yeah so i think that was a weird transition and but i think from you get there and that was with like the help of like the team and everybody being like bro just forget all this shit like my bafta's behind that plant because i'm just i don't it's not about it really yeah bro it's not about I don't know about you but am I not I know you are you can come to my house you're gonna see it you're gonna see that thing so I was like nah it's not about it's not I'm like I didn't do it for that I did it because I just thought it was fun so I tried to like hide it so I don't feel the pressure of it it's almost like the ring in Lord of the Rings you know the more you look at it's like just calling I don't want it how do you how do you handle pressure because it's like it's quite interesting you saying that like what can push you is people is proving people wrong kind of thing but how do you handle pressure because I feel like you know when you get a BAFTA or you know you have something that's like critically acclaimed now the pressure's on because now it's like okay cool like we know how good this is you've won the thing and now all eyes are on you so how do you start handling pressure because i guess like you're not gonna have people you there are those people you're like i got proved a doubt is wrong but i guess it's like if it's like critically acclaimed and you've won something it's almost like people are like yeah i wanted to succeed like why can't it not it's that do you know i want to see you do it again i'm not even from my dickhead thing of like, yo, no, I actually want to see you do it again.

28:20Mo Gilligan: It's weird because I guess, bro, I used to play sports. So like in high school, we'd be on a football team. It's funny. I was on all the teams. I was either on the cool teams, but not the cool position or like the captain of an uncool sport. So like I was on the football team, but I was a goalkeeper and I was a subsequent goalkeeper. So, you know, the girl that made me. you know I play when we don't pass the group stage like we get you know yeah man I Johnny a cast that I gave me so I was that guy obviously you know Jamaica a big in track yeah but i used to run 5k

29:26you know or even badminton bro like i was a captain of the badminton like we went nationals bro like man's come third in nationals that's a thing yeah yeah no one they care about

29:36Mo Gilligan: the badminton yeah i know you mean it's like badminton's a cool sport it's a cool sport it's not sexy in it yeah i get it yeah yeah yeah i know what you mean when the school announcement and you know and a journey has led the team to second place in the nationals no one's like right like everyone's like oh okay yeah that's nice

29:59so I guess in that in playing like competitive sport you like from time you start lose bro if you start watching the next man yeah you're done yes yeah yeah yeah and and it will happen to you within mid-match you start watching all right empty like you just have to be like all right wait what's my game and let me just lock into my game plan forget whatever they're doing I'm gonna just keep doing my thing yeah so I feel like that must translate and also just being bro I'm the biggest procrastinator mmm so that's just me every creative is yeah but that just means my last minute game is crazy okay like I will bust down 30 pages night before and give you that script baby black oh my John this is amazing yeah and my whole life I'm like but imagine if I started writing that

30:56Mo Gilligan: four weeks ago how good could it be actually be if I just sat down for two hours every day and just did it rather than spend a whole night before to do it yeah yeah um so i feel like i tried to just block out the nuts even this whole let's say with the awards and the pressure like coming into season two it was very much like forget these man didn't even know we were gonna make this stuff what do we want to do again yeah and just lock into like us and not like you know there's not much black content bro so whatever we put out there to some degree if it's decent they're gonna be like oh my god this is great but so i'm like it's fine they're fine let's just make the thing as good as possible and they'll love it yeah and people did love it though bro people really like people vibe with the team because there's there's like there's there's a thing getting like the critically acclaimed and the reviews but when you see like the people and you're like, I didn't even ask you to put this post out.

32:03Mo Gilligan: I didn't ask you to retweet this or whatever. You're like, oh, bro, people, people really like, you know, the term is, is people fuck with this. Yeah, bro, it's the best part. It's not like people like this. People fuck with this. Yeah, people fuck, bro. Yeah, that's like, you know, that's where people are like, bro, they're really tuning in to this, man. And it's funny because, again, remember, bro, it's funny because you don't even remember when we met. Like, we met about

32:312013. 13? Yeah, bro. Where? Yeah, bro. You remember there was this event called Subjectivity? Subjectivity. Oh, my God. A dude named Lionheart. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:43Mo Gilligan: Right. And it was in Islington. In Islington. Yes, bro. Did I meet you there? Yes, bro. Fucking hell. Oh, shit. I was in film school, dog. Oh, shit. Did I do comedy that night? Yes, dog. Oh, yes. and it's funny because how I remember I'll never forget that night because bro I ain't lying to you bro the first half of your set the man didn't were laughing bro and I remember I remember at the back being like ah this is tough bro because man's just going for it and no one's laughing but you kept going for it and you had this joke at the end about Hotmail like when we ever sent messenger and with the video cameras ah yeah yeah yeah and you bust that joke and a whole place fell and I was like yo oh shit I read this dude you know how much of a throwback that is bro let me tell you why let me tell you why specifically I was like nah this mo dude is sick because bro five minutes in if I weren't getting no laughs I'd have just been like all right thanks guys have a good night I'll see you later I enjoy the rest of the night but you just kept hitting the next joke hitting the next joke and when you got the crowd going i was like raw i appreciate you man that's dedication i remember being like bro respect

34:09Mo Gilligan: 2013 yeah bro that was upstairs in like a pub yeah upstairs yeah boy because i think lion's heart his events were poetry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he would bring in someone to like switch it up. Yeah, and I remember at that stage and even still a bit now, I'd always be like, I want to do comedy in a place that they're not expecting any comedy. And his events, they were poetry events. This is where people would go to an event and they're like, I'm here for poetry. That's what they were there. Like they would laugh at a poet who had something funny to say, but the people that come would be like, yeah, I bring my girl a little poetry.

34:44Mo Gilligan: Ah, yeah, you don't know. I want to switch it up so with that much culture than that so coming on when you got to tell jokes and people are like I didn't really sign up for this you know bro good luck in it hope it goes well for you but I don't think I'm going to laugh you know yeah oh wow that is mad that's where we met you know that's where we met but I'm like fucking hell man but that when people fuck with it bro because I remember the way the pub lifted up I was taking I was taking for me I thought it funny but I was like thank god you got it you turned it around but that was like i was like it's that feeling of like your people being like yo i rate this thing yeah so when the show came out and i'm seeing people in the comments arguing as if it's not a show like they're arguing as if quabin is a real person and vanessa is a real person like nah what how can i pay that bill this is what is and i'm thinking oh boy like oh you are engaging it's when like you have a part in anything that's written where it opens up the conversation of like public dialogue on culture oh like okay well let's revisit this as a point and you're like yeah I just wrote it as a bit I just thought it was funny so that is honestly the greatest feeling or even I was on the train and this uncle was like young man you make a movie upon WhatsApp and I was like nah I said nah I made this thing on BBC I said yes man yo listen good thing you are doing show my son watch it you must be like this and I was like bless uncle respect and that for me I'm like, yeah, like this is like from the time he reached the WhatsApp group, like the anti-WhatsApp group, you know you're thing certified.

36:46Mo Gilligan: Yeah, if the aunties put it in the group they're like, yeah, that took them a lot of time, you know, to put that post up. Because you know they curated the text. They open up the booklet, put their glasses on. Their group. I've seen this. I've seen this program I think it's very good and have good representation of Black people. It's a letter to the community. So no, man, it's blessed. To fund it, is it right in that the money that you got to fund it, was it your mother's mortgage? So it wasn't my mum's mortgage. It was, so basically my mum had, because she worked here for time. Okay. So she, you know, been pension, everything that's a pile in, pile in, pile in.

37:33So when I'd saved up money from working, I had like 5k saved up not because I was saving I just when you work like I was working on film sets so I literally just went to work slept went to work slept so I had like 5k saved up blew it in like two episodes so I was like oh mum like I'm halfway through making this thing and I've run out of money I was just like oh okay so I was like oh well but I know you got money here innit so I was just wondering if I could like borrow it and she's like but I guess for her she was just like your show film didn't do nothing like it was nice but it didn't do nothing why do you think Dreaming Was Black is any different like how how do I know I'm not just gonna give you this money to make this good thing but like nothing happened yeah yeah

38:31Mo Gilligan: and I was just like mum I just I genuinely believe it I genuinely I can't tell you why but I genuinely believe this is it like this is the one you know what I'm saying I know I said it before but like this time it's real and she was like yeah cool I hope for your sake it is that's where the pressure came in I guess yeah no that's the real pressure of like yo it goes back to like gotta make it work you gotta make it work so that was the pressure of like, rah, like, okay, let me pour all, like, everything into this web series and, and, bro, for like a year nothing happened. Like, and my mom's like, oh, so, have you had any meetings yet?

39:19And I'm like, oh,

39:20Mo Gilligan: no, not yet, mom. She's like, oh, okay. You could tell she's like, fuck it now. She's like, for money, bro. You know what, she knew that I was sad as well. So she never really want to be like, yo, where my money there but at the same time she's like so so nothing at all like you know and but yeah no thankfully it popped off and and and yeah now now she's blessed innit how did she feel when when it came out on BBC 3 in July 2023 when it aired on the BBC how did she feel then oh man it was great because even I flew her up for it as well so I was like oh mum you know this thing's coming out in July she's like oh yeah congrats I was like, oh, I would love you to be there.

40:05She's like, oh, I don't quite know, you know, because, you know, I just, you know, I went to see your aunt in America. I said, oh, no, no worries. I'm paying for the ticket. She said, oh.

40:13Mo Gilligan: She said, oh, yes, man. Yeah, she did. She's like, I'm free. I've got to see where my investment is, innit? And my auntie texts me. She's like, yo, your mother tell me you're paying for a flight. I was like, yeah, yeah. She's like, oh, no, well done. She did say it's just economy, though, but, you know. you're like listen mum it's series one bro I'm like it's BBC dog like big mum chill out mum but no but her seeing it and seeing because we brought her to the Ritzy as well for the premiere it was like 350 people and just seeing everybody laugh yeah she was kind of like raw like oh he made it like he's actually done this thing yeah which which which I was like oh man I'm glad that she could could see because you know sometimes I don't know for yourself but my mum is like you know she's tough but even I just say oh you know well done you know it was it was really good listen man the recognition you get from your parents is like so priceless because like parents will support the thing you do but when they see everyone else and they're like oh wow they are an audience member in your vision yeah which is quite rare because normally they're like I know what's going on how it's going on but now they're like oh wow they'll sit next to someone that says and they'll be like that's my son you know yeah yeah that's my son you know yeah yeah that must have been a moment yeah nah honestly that was that was a moment and that was I was like and it's weird because I then I regret the reason why I flew her up as well because I didn't fly her up for the BAFTAs because she's like oh you know should I come and I was like nah trust me I ain't gonna win like don't make sense waste your time innit yeah yeah of course so when I won I was like peak which is then now I'm pissed too because when we went to the BAFTAs again I was like right mummy I'm gonna book you a flight still economy but I'm gonna book you a flight and it will never win I'm like shit I'm like time's it wrong you know what's bad yeah I don't know if you've had this yet well I well you say you say you haven't won but you know when you have won and then you you go back again and you're like, well, I've won before and I'm up again.

42:31Mo Gilligan: So in your head, you go, I went with a different mindset. So when I think I went in, we're in two, I think 20, 23, I think I went. So I was like, I think it was best entertainment. And in my head, I'm like, I know who's winning this. So now I'm just on like a vibe of like, I'm happy to be here. If I win though, God help me. I don't know what I'll say on stage, you know, because like there's a thing where we have to suppress how we really want to express ourselves so you know the first time you go you're like it's a shock like oh my god I can't believe it yeah I can't make sure I thank everyone I've got my list and it's a pleasure to be here and you feel thankful and it's not that you don't feel thankful but the second time you're like right mate so if I go up this time first of all I'm going to take my time going down yeah yeah yeah is it a time obviously thank God this time I'm going to do a real in-depth speech right let me talk about the industry bro let me tell you something yeah let me tell you something if I had won that second time the speech will you not hear it's a different speech then man would have just been like I would like to thank God and beep take care I was like nah I have something to say now I didn't know I was going to win last time but now I'm like if I win again watch me What's around the blood cloud today?

43:57And when did they win? I was like, you know what?

44:00Mo Gilligan: When the camera's right there, isn't it? And it's just right there. It's clapping, man. And you know when it's like, it's calm. Like, I love Kat and them when they won. But when it's like, you know what? Can I take my LMPs? Like, why are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The camera's right there. Allow me, man. Move over there, man. Allow me, man. How was it, though, like, winning? But also, because the thing is, like, It's one thing winning, it's one thing being, you know, premiered on like BBC Three. How does it start to feel though when it goes like across the pond? You know, when it was on Showtime, that must have felt quite special.

44:34Yeah, man, that was great. But it's weird because it happened during the strikes. So we couldn't even get for the like a proper rollout, rollout. But I remember telling A24, I was like, yo, like, you know, I'm coming because it's like, oh, there's a billboard in Times Square. And I was like, oh, yo, I'm coming for the premiere. I thought, yo, yo, no, you can't do press. I said, brother, my face is on Times Square. Do you think I need press?

44:58Mo Gilligan: I'm going to look at myself on a billboard. I don't care. You know what I mean? So that was great. And it's weird because my aunt saw it as well. And she was, you know, then the group chat come up again. Like, yo, you know, Johnny's on Times Square. The booklet case out. Yeah. So that was the biggest thing for me, though, above all things, man. and I'll say this openly, look, man, I've been in this industry a long time and I've been broke for 90 % of it. So I haven't always had all the platforms. But I've watched all the things. I'm going to just leave it at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? But I remember I was in Uganda and we went, my cousin was like, yo, let's go to this DVD store.

45:42And I went to the DVD shop, and it was there. And I said, no, I've made it to the bootleg. I said no now I've made it let me tell you something

45:58Mo Gilligan: when you make it to the bootleg when you make it to the bootleg you've now you're worth stealing yeah you see what I'm saying because funny enough I checked the bootleg after the pilot and they didn't put it up and I was like maybe next time so when I saw it in a DVD shop I said in Uganda yeah yeah I said nah bro yeah this is a thing so anyway pick up the thing to buy it I was like oh I'm gonna buy it so pick it up to buy it and the woman was like yeah you know she said how may I bring it around and she looked she looked at the ting take up the ting and she looked at me and it was if right like do I need to run I'm like no no no yo yo nah we're good bro I'm trying to thank you thank you for ripping this and selling it to me like I hope keep it keep it on the front for a little longer recommend it to the dogs but that was when I was like man I made it made it and they made up a whole bag of things like literally they wrote their own blurb on the back oh right yeah they made up the whole thing so I don't know where they got the cover from but they must have just googled it and then it's incredible though because yeah there's a part of you that probably feels like ah like you know this is illegal innit like deep down you're like this is illegal this is illegal but you like there is a part of you that's like I want this to just be watched do you know what I mean bro on the grand scheme of it I need it to be watched listen If I go to Uganda and it's watched, I'm like, yeah, like you guys are doing what I wanted you to do.

47:26Mo Gilligan: I don't promote it, by the way. I don't. So if you're listening to this right now, do not be ripping none of my stuff. We do not condone theft of intellectual property. Come on, tell them. On any scale. Right. But I guess it's like there is a part of you that feels like, oh, wow. This is an idea that I wrote. And I didn't even think I'd go to Uganda and just see my image there. Do you know what I mean? There is so random. I'm like, and that just, again, that's when you say people really fuck with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm like, rah, I didn't even know that. Because we are on Prime Africa.

47:59Like, we're on Amazon Prime in Africa. So I knew that. But then, again, that don't mean, like, I don't know what reach that is.

48:06Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to see it ripped, I was like, oh, mate, people really, yeah, man. I was like, this is a vibe. I was like, don't worry, I'm writing season two. Don't worry, don't worry. Listen, when season two comes out, you got to buy that one, bro. You got to buy that one, bro. maybe you can sell a box set and like we were talking before but like you've also been on the other side of the camera as well do you know what I mean yes you star in and you direct and you've created things but you know you're in Doctor Who man yeah bro that's not a joke you know yo the Hooniverse is a different world do they write you letters and stuff like this they do because I heard they write you letters yeah they do bro I ain't lying to you I was chuffed even when we went to the BAFTA went to the BAFTAs and obviously someone had a picture of you printed out printed out the picture printed out the sign yeah yeah yeah I was like yo and it's funny because my publicist was like Ajani we're late we need to get inside I said do you not see that man with my face I'm this man look like you must stand up from London I'm signing that he's properly got it signed you like I'm signing that like don't I ain't gonna bro all these men look if I have two fans please let me let me help let me serve the two fans I have yeah yeah yeah yeah but no that was a whole other experience bro and even because i have like my god daughter i have a god daughter she's like jesus she's like 12 now but that was the first thing she'd ever watched yeah because obviously dreaming was like a swearing or kind of thing so she she hasn't watched she just knows her uncle makes stuff but she watched doctor who yeah and even her being like you know exterminate I was thinking ah like that as well it's like being part of like you know when you think of like I think it's only until I got a little bit older and I realised how big Doctor Who was but when you think of like those sci-fis of like Star Trek Star Wars Doctor Who is is there is there with Harry Potter all of them it's not a game man and that was that was such a great experience as well man and because it just again I didn't audition myself like I kind of just forced my way in so even just to audition and get it and it's like right you're now the New Year's Day you're on the New Year's Day special I was like oh now now I'm acting acting before I was kind of doing a thing this is now because I auditioned for this so y 'all can't you know what I'm saying like yeah I'm serious I guess it's different when you write and you direct the thing you're like yeah I'm in it I'm in it and I'm I could like if I want to change the line I wrote it bro I change lines all the time I'm like continuity is like bro I wrote it I'm doing the line like this or I'll just go up to continuity and be like oh this is the new line yeah because I feel like it like yeah yeah but Doctor Who though you can't even if it's they are coming and you're like they're coming you script just to let you know Ajani it is they are coming thank you I'd be like oh oh thank you let me just say the people's words and you know what I mean and the New Year's Day special that's big because that's got numbers on that that's where you know what I mean BBC prime time people are sitting they're like especially the fans of the show do you know what I mean they're like listen we are die hard fans we waited all year for this for this special do you know what I mean speaking of waiting series 2 of Dreaming Wilds Black what are you allowed to tell us what can you tell us and when will it be out because there'll be people listening to this and they're like listen I hear the Doctor Who stuff but man's a diehard fan or June Wilde Black I'm hearing the talk so how much of it are you allowed to tell us yo well yeah season 2 just to progress the story because in real life it takes you about 6, 7, 8, 9 short films to get any kind of break But just for the progression of story, season two, Kwabana gets a job in TV.

52:13So now we see what it's like to be inside the industry and post Black Lives Matter. So we're in like the era of diversity now and just kind of navigating. well everybody says they want me but I don't know I don't quite feel like they want me in here and it's weird

52:39Mo Gilligan: and it's just a I would say it's a reflection of the times now yeah yeah yeah when like you know it's finished well okay what's the next thing alright where's Lucy so yeah Dreaming was black explorers trying to navigate the industry from the inside and also just trying to navigate life, like love life, like yeah, what it's like to try to like circle the block on a babe, innit? I don't know, some of the man, me sometimes too you know when you're on and off with somebody and I thought that's more interesting because we've always seen like love interests like you know we've all seen it but I think I guess it's almost like we try to be like this is the Ross and Rachel of the UK like will they won't they will they won't they so we kind of just delve deeper into that no but just from obviously a black British perspective and is there a release that you're allowed to tell us we're out early October is it early October or is it early October early October single digits October single digit October listen I don't know like the thing can change it changes all the time it changes all the time but early October we're outside and you know what it's better than season one you know genuinely like I was like oh this is good like that that pressure of how do we they've seen the thing I guess as well yeah how do you top it like how and then worse again going viral like I ain't we ain't never I ain't never been viral before so seeing like certain clips go like in the millions of views I'm like can we can we write better than that but I genuinely think this season is better yeah I'm like oh y 'all thought this was good that's a nice that's a nice position to be in because now it's everyone's looking forward to the follow up it's part two now so we have a reference but I guess it's like with part two I don't know what it's like behind the scenes but you have something to work from but also you know the business side they're like oh yeah you know update the budget a little bit yeah let's use these cameras yeah a bit more freedom yeah certain things we said in season one we had to really like go straight up to the top to get clearance to say it whereas no they were kind of like yeah you know do you think yeah and I'm like you sure yeah yeah it's this freedom is a bit too much you know might go to my head breath i said back to the bathroom i might say something crazy take time bro so yeah so it is us with more freedom and i'm like i hope y 'all like this freedom yeah yeah so you see like with your end right in some ways where you started off you know in terms of your like not like your career but your path into architecture how do you start to look at those blueprints of where you are now to lay the foundations but you know like how does your how does your end look so how does that house look because i feel like at first you know it was like going back to what you're saying is like no just put the bathroom in there but now you have created something that people have people can look at they can they can map they can say oh wow he's won this award and it's shown in america to to Uganda so how do you start to be the architect of like your future that can show the house of like that's the house that built you know um it's funny you should say it actually because I think architecture what architecture taught me over everything was design like the philosophy of design and how you can how you take you have to take multiple elements and put them together to create one cohesive thing and i think for me as like a journey as the filmmaker um is more about expansion now i think so i'm like oh i've written a comedy it's like well right now i have a film and it's a drama and you know now i'm kind of like working on a dystopian novel and it's like oh actually i think i think i want to be like a master storyteller so i'm now trying to stretch myself into different genres different formats like how because all the things inform the other things right so i think for me it's just really trying to push the boundary of like world building like now it's like i say let's have a show set in like a future like a distant future and i'm just like yeah me even have a show bro we're developing a show right now i can say it here boom command them in outer space and it's just like let's just do it you know i mean and And not put restrictions on the breadth of what our stories can look like.

58:05I think that's where I'm at. Like how far, because even seeing like Ratman do Supercell, I'm thinking, rah, like this is nuts. Man them with powers. Why? Because I remember even hearing you talking about it. Why would we have an idea where the man them have powers, but only the man them have powers? And I was thinking, okay. Yeah, we'll see how that goes. and when he tied it into the super cell I said I said okay is that what you're on? I was like but that just made me think nah but why what's my brain saying because man I didn't even see the vision

58:43Mo Gilligan: I know what you mean it's like you see an idea and you're like oh shit I need to think better yeah so now I'm just like now I'm it's like an open plan I'm like right where where can we go next that hasn't been gone before you know and just to expand it so that when the people are coming up underneath us when they now say oh yeah they want to make a comedy about this black guy who's trying to like navigate London at least they can say oh yeah I think there was a show called Dreaming Wise Black that was like actually yeah let's get him in I can see why your show now makes sense because we've now continued to lay groundwork so it's just that man just expansion yeah that's going to be some house boy wants the architecture.

59:25Oh, listen, I'm Jamaican. You know Jamaican people already. I don't know if you've been to Jamaica, but sometimes you'll be in Jamaica and you look on the hill, yeah, and you see this big old dirty house that just kept expanding. They didn't quite think. It was just like, oh, I'm going to get more money. Next bedroom. Get more money again. Next bedroom. Get more money again. All right, knock through that bedroom, turn it into like a pool room. Like, it just...

59:47Mo Gilligan: It just gets bigger a bit. It just gets bigger. And that's... I'm just trying to expand like whatever that looks like. People might look back on it and be like, ugh. But it's mine, though. I've built this. I don't care if you like it, bro. I've got to pull in my house, bro. Yeah, yeah, that's it. What you like. I don't care what you like. Aye, bro, this has been a pleasure to have you on the pod, man. Thank you, man. I'm so excited to see Series 2 of Dreaming Whilst Black. But also, most importantly, I feel like your career, you know, for anyone listening or anyone watching, it's like you're navigating in a way that's like on your terms.

1:00:24Mo Gilligan: And, you know, to sit down with you and see, like, yeah, like, you could probably pigeonhole yourself and be like, oh, I'm going to keep creating this genre. But you're like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to go that way. And I'll go that way. But then I might go back to this, but I might go over there because I've got to see where it goes. Do you know what I mean? So, bro, it's been a pleasure to have you on the pod. And this has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you very much, my brother. Bless, bro. Much respect, man. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today.

1:00:57Mo Gilligan: Now, a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated. And we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.