From Harry Potter to Shakespeare’s King | Alfred Enoch

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1:00radio shows. Now he's always managed to stay relevant. This guy has been evolving with the times while also retaining his signature style. That is right people. We speak about his upbringing in North London, to him going to prison in his 20s, to becoming one of the biggest most paid TV presenters of the 90s. That's right. Love through his wit, his storytelling and charm. Please welcome to the podcast a national treasure, Johnny Thanks for doing the podcast though, man. I really appreciate it, Johnny, man. You know what? It's good because I think we've probably got different audiences. Yeah, you were saying that, but then also it's like we had Connie Huck on and everyone was just like, rah, Connie Huck.

1:42I remember watching her back in the day. So there is like a, like my audience is probably that millennial stage that we all grew up watching all the stuff you lot was in. But your career is amazing, John, because like you're, again, and I grew up watching you know what I mean that big big breakfast and obviously getting to host it as well but we'll get into that a little later but like you're a North London boy innit yeah you're from Barnet yeah I'm from Barnet yeah what about you me I grew up in South London alright so I grew up in I'm in South London I've been in South London 30 35 years now whereabouts are you in South I'm now on I'm just in Clapham Old Town used to be Battersea sorry Bassie oh you're in Battersea yeah I was in Battersea yeah I was St John's Hill.

2:27And now I'm on Clapham Common. Oh, decent, bruv. That's a level up, bruv. Yeah, it's a level up. Nice, man. For a while, for a while, I made it to Spencer Park. Where's that? That's where Gordon Ramsay's your neighbour. They've got their own private park. What, is that in Clapham? Yeah, it's Battersea. It's just off the A3. so he's the part of Batsy Rice so he's the part of South London I don't know about it boy yeah for a while I made it these are the middle class secrets Rev no no if you make it there you've got like the head of BP was there the head of the BBC was there you know just where Cara Delevingne grew up you know they're all these just houses and they all share this secret park in the middle that no one's allowed to go to you get like you know David Beckham turning up for firework night stuff like that is it yeah because they're all matey you know everyone's invited to Gordon's after the London Marathon to go and have snacks right here and I've got to tell you yeah yeah buffet yeah Gordon Ramsay's yeah it must be I'll tell you something about him yeah he's got an infusion wok what's that in his kitchen which I asked him about he's got an infusion wok yeah I don't know what it is it's a wok that's sort of built in but rather than have an extraction fan it will suck all the stuff out down through the floor and out so you can just wok if I've heard that yeah that's cool 60 grand, yeah, and they had to have a crane to lower it in.

3:57Uh-uh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, 60 grand for a fusion wok. Yeah, it's Gordon, though, isn't it? It's Gordon, isn't it? He puts bread on people's ears and calls them idiot sandwiches. So, like, you grew up in North London. Yeah. Like, you know, working class family and all that kind of stuff. Well, no, trade. Oh, was it trade? Trade. My dad worked at... But trade is working class, though. It is, yeah. My dad worked at Fort Dagenham. he was an apprentice there. Okay. So my dad worked at Fort Dagenham when he was a kid. His dad was an engineer and they really saw the death of that in Britain. Oh, man. The death of all...

4:33And it's just because, you know, there's always been that thing in Britain that you should make your money out of just property and money and actually to have a skill to do anything. Like, you know, to actually be capable of making something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's considered, oh, it's a bit below us. Yeah, man. Oh, does he trade? Oh, does he actually make things and provide jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, that's awful. You know, so he's presided over that. And they were, you know, involved with the motor industry. So he saw that all die. And I guess briefly we went kind of up in the world and then we sort of, rather like in my life, there's been ups and downs, but my dad's a big up and big down.

5:12So he started off, you know, North London. Then his dad opened a factory, a small factory in Nottingham. so they all moved there then that all went so we lost everything but from North London we moved to the country yeah we had a small house in North Country small house in North London from selling that yeah we bought this fucking mansion in this village yeah and these village people just really the village people we they really didn't like us you know they just thought we were kind of strange and so these London people they're really suspicious and we had this house but we didn't have any furniture for it we just didn't have you know we just had stuff from a small house in North London so we had this sort of big manor house with all our sort of furniture from North London crowded into these really grand rooms it just looked really mad it literally looked like some people from North London had just sold their houses in North London and back then houses in the country were nothing I mean no one was moving to the country but this for me and my sister and our family that was a real weird one because we...

6:19Where's this? In the 70s? It's in the 70s, yeah, early 70s. So I was like eight, seven, eight. And so we moved to this village, yeah? I'm not kidding. You drive down the village main street and there's a cobbler in a window. We're like, fucking cobbler? There's a cobbler? You know, just sitting there, just literally mending shoes, looking out the window. There's a blacksmith. There was a blacksmith. And he had a petrol pump that came down from his roof just for the sort of the big cars in the village. there was people who'd never left the village there was a butcher, two shops, two pubs and there was people that the only time the guy used to do look after the gooseberries in our garden he'd only left the village once sorry, he'd left the village twice and that was for both wars it was the only time he'd left the village mad isn't it mad that you think and that was only well that was the 1970s okay, here's a fact that will blow your mind Here's a fact that will blow your mind.

7:18This is one of my favourite facts. In 1970, if that sort of laying your age over things kind of blows your mind and doing that, Winston Churchill says at the start, I think of his history of the English-speaking peoples or the Second World War, I can't remember, but he says the best way to understand history or the only way to understand history is by laying your own life over it. In terms of you get a period of time, you have to sort of think, what was I doing between in those sort of years to get an idea of the... So a woman died in 1970 in Kent, who was the last person in Britain to have 18th century parentage.

8:00Her dad was born in 1799. Oh, right. So I'd have been four when she died. If she was my neighbour, right? her dad was born in 1799 that means he could have fought in the Battle of Waterloo yeah that's 1815 he's only been 16 which is quite possible yeah that means in my life I'm born in 66 if I'd lived next door to her and spoken to that woman and she told me about her dad she could have told me yes my father fought at Waterloo that means in my lifetime I could say yeah it's really weird my neighbour's dad fought at Waterloo she used to tell me about it Yeah. That's mad, isn't it? It's crazy. It's insane.

8:44You're only going, you know, literally 15 years before that. Sorry, 25 years before his birth. And you get the foundation of America. That's how old America is. It's mad, isn't it? Uh-uh. Anyway, sorry. I won't fuck with you, Flo. No, no, no. Don't worry, man. Listen, with the pod, we like it to go wherever it needs to go, man. Is that what you do? Yeah, because I never want it... I don't really believe much in structure when it comes to these kind of things. like same with like I don't know even with my own stand up in some ways I'm like if it needs to go that way it works for that for it to go that way or go that way do you know what I mean when I'm in traffic I'm like if we're all going that way there must be another way we can go yes it might take longer to get there but you can still get there the road less travel do you see what I'm saying I chose the path less what is it yeah yeah I know the one you're talking about Robert Frost isn't it yes I reached a fork in the road I chose the path less yeah yeah but I didn't know you went to prison when you was young?

9:39Yeah, yeah. So like when you went there, how old was you when you went to prison then? I was 22. I was about two people younger than me in there. How did you find it in there? That's fucking horrendous. The reason why I say how did you find it because obviously your career after that is majorly successful. So is it... Yeah, and I wasn't there much before. Do you know what I mean? But almost is it looking back at that period where obviously I know it's not the funnest time in your life but is it reflective in the way where you're like I'm never coming back here but also it's given me those life skills that led you to get on to the things that you've done it's just fucking miserable and terrifying makes you neurotic and look people actually choose to join the army no one chooses to go to jail it's horrendous I was 22 and I wasn't bad looking so I'd heard all this stuff and I was like shitting it going in there suddenly you're in there and you're thinking Christ alive this is really this is bad this is like jail it really doesn't look like you think it's going to look.

10:36You're like, suicide net. You say, what are those nets for? Suicide nets. Someone said, you know, and it's just like, someone said to me, how do you feel? I said, well, I feel so, I feel really frightened and I feel pretty down, if I'm honest with you. I'm depressed. Don't say that. Whatever you do, do not say depressed. When you go see that doctor and you go through there, you do not say you feel depressed. Why? Because they will shove you in on suicide watch in a straight jacket, in a padded room with just a trough down the middle that you can piss down. so really whatever you do avoid the word depressed because that's they've got a policy for that but I do I genuinely feel quite down I'm not say no don't say that don't say that just say you know I'm disappointed but don't say depressed yeah yeah yeah was you in there for long?

11:19yeah yeah about two and a half years obviously but when you're young years are longer right it's quite an eye opener I can imagine I went to quite a lot of jails funny enough you know so much comes out of it though you know you've got to watch it in life. Here's a thing I've learnt. The great mental editor. It can remember trauma and things like that and actually comes back to you. And it can also recall things and suddenly you're like even more nervous about them than you were at the time. You go back and look at say that time you nearly hit by a bus or something crossing your road and you actually get like, you know.

11:54But the one trick the mental editor pulls on you and this is one of the most significant things I've learnt is remember you can't of all the emotions you can remember you can remember joy so it makes you feel joyful you can remember laughter so it makes you feel laugh so you laugh you can also remember funny times so it can make you feel quite wistful and sad that the person's no longer there to share laughs with you can remember sad things obviously and they make you feel sad again you can remember terrifying things and they're more terrifying and you feel that you can remember moments of great love you can remember moments of great lust so they literally get that flicker going and you literally tighten you.

12:36But you cannot remember boredom so it makes you feel bored. The brain does not retain boredom in any form. So this is a problem with jail and leaving people bored is you've not taught them a lesson in any way because that is just all gone. Like the times you've waited for a plane that's delayed. I was waiting for one the other day, nine hours, as soon as you're on the plane it's like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gone. waiting for a bus. It's gone. And it's also a great tool for running society. They know that as soon as you're out that traffic jam, that feeling of like, oh, come on, Jesus Christ.

13:10Come on. It's gone. It's gone. The mental energy just takes it out. It's too boring to remember. You can't remember. God, do you remember that time we were really bored? So I think, oh, man, I'm feeling bored now. Fucking hell, I remember that. Christ, it was boring. Wasn't it? Do you remember I looked at you and I said, God, we're bored. Do you remember the time? We kept going, what's the time? And the time hadn't moved because we were so bored. and it doesn't happen. It's so true, man. It doesn't happen. So watch that. There's a lesson from jail. Lesson two, monsters are not monsters 24 hours a day.

13:41I met some people who just had a right laugh with them. You go, you know, he boiled his best mate alive and I'm like, you're fucking kidding me. I just played Monopoly with him. They go, no, he did. Ran the whole thing, waited for his mate to come up, held him under. Shit. And you're like, you're kidding me. I was just like, you know, I started, this guy was just teaching me teaching me guitar. You know, he's got a really nice bloke and everything. And going, you know, he chopped a guy's head off outside a pub. I'm like, you're fucking kidding me. No, he was, again, he found out he was seeing his girlfriend.

14:10Chopped him off with a machete. So, monsters are not monsters 24 hours a day. It tends to be, it's in those moments and that's why those moments are so telling and you shouldn't be really fooled when people, you know, people tell you the story about how they killed someone. I don't know, have you ever spoke to murderers? Have you ever spoke about how they killed someone? I've spoke to loads of them. and what's amazing is I take you through the story and you really get it you know they're like pulled a shotgun out I thought fuck it bang and you're like yeah no I get it yeah and you sort of think they're thinking oh god I've got to get out of here and you think and it makes sense in their story it really makes sense and then afterwards you sort of think yeah but I wouldn't have done that you sort of think he's a normal bloke but in that moment the monsters aren't monsters 24 hours a day but they're locked up for the bit the 1 % yeah yeah yeah So then after you came out of prison, you became a journalist.

15:01Yeah. What made you go into that? Oh, sorry, can I say the other three? The other thing I've learned about, because that comes into it, is that I was weirdly lucky when I was in jail. And I don't say this to try and take away people's privileges of what they've got now to get through the boredom. But we only have books and radio. That's it. It's when I really love radio. And I describe radio and podcasts as being like a window in a cell. If we're doing this, we're supplying people with eyes-free entertainment. someone is driving a car we're a window in a cell they're caught in traffic it's never good driving someone's at a computer they're working they've got to send headphones someone's on a bus doing something they've got to commute somewhere but generally if people are listening it's eyes free entertainment they haven't got a visual option which people will generally take over radio if they can or people are cooking you know even for pleasure or because it's a job but we can be the window in a cell is what we do so I got a really good appreciation of radio which I already loved anyway but more and more I really loved it also reading I always describe the three R's, reading, writing and radio forward, which are the three things I really got into there I don't know that I'd be what or have succeeded or three years later become the best paid man on telly or the best paid man on radio and sold series and written things and done what I did, I don't know if I'd have done that if I'd have had telly there and computers, I really don't think I would have done because I'd have just sat there like I do when I've got time off now and just watched telly, just watched bollocks on telly.

16:30And actually, it gave me a chance, and I don't say this to try and make anyone start thinking, oh, we'll take away privileges, but it definitely, I discovered, this is point three, that up there you are living in quite a small room of a massive house, you know, with lots of rooms to go into, lots of great views and lots of this incredible place up there. So that's what I did get out of jail. I realised that I was just really underusing my brain and I was living in a cell in quite a you know I locked myself in in a fucking mansion yeah yeah so that's what I really those are the three things I really and I've thought about it a lot and that's what I'd say yeah and is that where the writing comes into it where you start yeah I mean I wrote The Prison Pantomime and which I've talked about before on another podcast which was just fantastic and it went really well and that was really rewarding that was in the last jail I was in and they needed a pantomime so I wrote it and we cast it and we got people in the art department to do the most amazing sets and we got you know the most unlikely people you know came forward to do it I wrote this thing Snow White and the Seven Cons we can only fit five on the stage so it was five cons and it was amazing it really was you know the way it just sort of built up and everyone got into it.

17:53There was one moment when we started doing it and we were casting for it. And all I did, I just got, I literally went to the, got them to get a, you know, book of fairy tales at the local library, got Snow White and I just literally sort of read the paragraphs and at the end you see that's the end of a scene and then I just adapted it, you know, as a straightforward kind of play. And then sort of pantomimed it up with songs and stuff. But it came to the time when, we were saying we're having auditions and everyone's turned up at the education thing. They've got like 100 cons in there. And they're all looking like this.

18:23So it's a basic story of Snow White. So I says, what is, Varnie, what is the story? Actually, they used to call me New Kid because they thought I looked like one of the new kids around the floor. New Kid, what's it about? And I was like, what, Snow White? I was going, well, it's a story of Snow White. They go, yeah, but what is the fuck? I haven't seen it. So I was like, all right. So I suddenly found myself in front of like 100 cons. This was a heavy jail because this was like, I was doing over three. so you go to medium long term so you're with lots of like lifers finishing off and anyone over three suddenly you're in a bit of a different there's a bit of an uplift on my door I had the lowest sentence on the card on the door it was like I was kind of ashamed I had four on it the guy next door had like 22 18s really big sentences anyway so I was I was just sitting there and suddenly I thought I'm going to have to tell they want me to tell them the story of Snow White I go it's really simple you know one day there was this woman called Snow White you know people were putting their hands up and sort of going Vaughn it was the was the woodcutter was he meant to then kill her?

19:21I've gone well yeah basically that's what the evil queen wanted you go fucking hell like this I was thinking it's not something

19:33you know and fucking hell what because she didn't what because she was jealous and that yes she was really jealous that's why and you have someone in the background she was just jealous so you know she wanted the woodcutter to kill her and suddenly you just hear like shut you know which was always in the telly room incidentally at the very back was a load of dreads always really on it and anything particularly white that ever happened on a TV show you'd always hear always resounding at the back I love you too I love you always anyway so there was all sorts of people involved in this fucking thing and so I told the stories of Snow White and then all these people So because people realised they got out of their cells at night for rehearsals and stuff, I started getting real pressure.

20:22I had to sort of write in more parts, like the woodcutter's assistant. I had to make the minstrels, the wandering minstrels, bigger. We're going to need seven of them, Varnie. So his cast was really growing and growing. So I'd written that. And that was, you know, so I sort of discovered I could write as well, which is kind of cool. and at the end of that we got an extended run of this play so they then started getting local schools in to see it like we were going to do just two nights we ended up doing four nights with matinees and a performance for the prison officers and their families it was amazing and on the last night we did the last performance for the cons and it was amazing because one of the guys who was in it he said one of the most moving things I've ever known this is a guy who killed a bloke with a hammer with his brother as well I was standing outside with him having a fag when we'd just finished.

21:16We were waiting for everyone to go. We were just standing outside the visits room. And he's looking up and he looked at me and he says, thanks for this, Fawley. I've gone, that's all right. He goes, no, thanks for this. I've gone, what? He goes, this is the first time I've seen the night sky for 18 years. Fucking hell, man. First time we'd seen the night sky. He suddenly realised there's things that you can take from people. and also that he's been in a world entirely without love for 18 years you know you get people kind of outraged about jail and stuff and they go they've got video games they got this they've got no love they're in a terrifying world it's terrifying it's like i sentence you to be in a world a terrifying paranoid violent world without love they go oh well they're all high these days, all in the cells, all that.

22:01No, no, it's not a lot. It's terrible. And after they shot, they probably all got paranoid. Anyway, so then we walked out on our last performance, and the cons refused to go back in the cells, and they clapped us all back in, all the cars, all still, as we went back in the jail. It was quite a moment in life. So I suddenly thought, well, I really like writing that. And that's how journalism came about. Yeah, well, no. I was doing journalism. when I got out everyone I'd read about and I read a lot I always started as journalists whether they're writers or whatever and I sort of I read all the papers every day and I sort of really got in my head exactly how it's constructed I suddenly saw what the trick was you just tell the whole story in the first paragraph really easy that's it who, what, where, which way a local man was found guilty of whatever yesterday after a you know that's it you just put everything in the first paragraph and then you tell the story backwards it's fine then you just develop it I thought well I can do that that's a good thing to do.

22:58When I got out, I was doing that, and I started writing scripts with a friend of mine as well. So I was kind of doing the sort of two things at once. But I enjoyed the journalism. That was really good. It was really good. I got the front page my first kind of week when I wasn't being paid, which was a really good thing. I just stood in this village, well, no, the small town my dad lived in. I just, because I noticed every time we drove through this town, we always had to stop for the trains. Yeah. And I think, well, there's only about three trains ever stop here. so I counted all the trains going through I worked out many trains I sort of did all the things and then I exaggerated a bit and so I made this thing up about how many trains were going through and how many stopping and why local residents are getting all steamed up they're going off the rails so I started putting all these sort of shit puns in there and so I got the front page in my first week so they started paying me and I stayed doing that it was really good so then how is it that like because you get your big break through Channel 4 in some ways and like the mid 90s where you know someone at a male production company comes through and offers you a job at channel four yeah what's kind of going through your head at this time because i feel like you kind of had this kind of way of a redemption story at this point where you've gone to prison yeah but you've gone to prison and being able to be productive in prison which doesn't happen to a lot of people and then i think there was more of a basis to be productive even though facilities were shit but if you wanted to i think there really was because there wasn't really the doing it'd be just too boring not to so what was that like at channel four because i thought that was that was a real accident you know i i was writing my parole finished i stopped doing so i didn't have to live with my dad's i can move back down to london which is lovely all my friends are at the towards the end of my parole i decided right i'm not i've got enough now i've had i've got 40 front or 35 front pages loads of features i can't get any more from this and i was really conscious now of you know playing catch up with the world arriving at a party sober.

24:55Yeah, yeah. You know, so I was really enthusiastic to sort of get going. At the same time I was working at that, in the evenings I was getting back and my pal Ed, we got commissioned to write a sitcom which we'd pitched called Porgs, Persons of Restricted Growth, about two detectives who were only five foot. One of them was really violent, the other's like a miniature Columbo. So these two detectives who had written this, we got its production company really interested, they were really big, They'd made Alfie D 'Espere and loads of other stuff. It's a really good production company. They just really like this idea.

25:29It was great. So we started writing with, they commissioned us to write two episodes of that. With the money from that commission then, I was then able, as soon as my parole ended, to move down to London.

25:41Two other friends of mine were sort of doing Vox Pops. I don't know if you remember the year of, you know, kind of just, it's everywhere now, but it was interviewing people on the street. Yeah, man. So they were doing it for advertising agencies to prove a point. So if an advertising agency wanted to prove to a client that their campaign was working, they used to get us to go out there. I was doing the interviews. A friend of mine was doing the camera. The other guy's director and editor. We all went out. They'd been doing it for a while, but they wanted someone to do the interviewing. They thought, well, he might get good stuff out of someone there.

26:10But they had a list of responses that the advertising agency wanted. So we used to be out there just going, could you just say, yeah, I think of that straight away. or we'd just push for the answers by the end of the day. We'd just stop people going, excuse me, can you just say this? And yet it would look so honest when we sort of brought it back. Or you'd have one where it was someone who wanted the campaign and wanted to prove that adverts were failing. So they'd say, could you get these responses? So we did them for loads of companies. So I started getting really used to being in front of a camera.

26:39This is a bit of a lesson, is you never know when that fucking break's coming or what that break is. And sometimes it's not at all where you think it's coming from. A mate of mine used to edit for a production company, quite a trendy one in Notting Hill. And they were filming a title sequence for Channel 4 for a show called Rapido. Do you remember it? It's that French guy. Antoine Ducani. Who also did EuroTrash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before that, they used to do a show called Rapido. It's kind of a magazine show of pop culture, which used to be a lot of those on Channel 4. They were filming the titles for that.

27:10And my pal just said, well, you should come up for the day. I was living in this, we had no money, I was living in this flat in South London. And he just popped around and said, come out I go what's happening they go well they're just filming they've got dancers up there beer it's going to be a really cracking day we're just having a bit of a barbecue outside they're just filming in there come on so I went up there I started talking to this guy just talking shit about stuff and a couple of days later he said do you know that guy he's a producer he wants to film something with you because they've just filmed this music show for Channel 4 and Channel 4 didn't particularly like the host they wanted to try a different a nose for this music show.

27:46So I just filmed like a 10 minute taster tape with them. I know nothing more about it really. About two months later, someone called up and said, we've been trying to get a hold of you for ages. And they got a hold of me for a friend of a friend of a friend. And he said, this production, we want to see you. Channel 4 have put you forward for this film show. So it was on Wednesday. So I went up to see this production on a Wednesday. And this producer, a guy called Dave McMahon said, I really like your taste of taste. Where have you been hiding, by the way? I said, well, I don't know. I live in South London.

28:19He goes, well, I think people have been trying to block you us getting a hold of you. I don't know what they're saving you for, but, you know, fair enough. We'd like to try you out on a wee film show if we could. And I said, well, yeah, it'd be fantastic. When you film, he goes, tomorrow in Manchester. So the next day, I got up to Manchester, started filming just the links for this show. And then on Sunday, my old man came down he took me and my flatmate out for Sunday lunch and the show was on on Sunday show was on channel 4 on Sunday and he was really worried about it he was sort of thinking oh god my son's going to fuck up again I know he will he's rolling with the same bad crowd so we went out for lunch we went back to the flat we just had this shit little colour TV one of those dig dig dig we went out for lunch had a really nice lunch we were sitting there dad says I've got to get back out I've gone no no no wait wait wait wait and I was even wearing the same clothes I was wearing about 12 TV I think what's he going to think so we were just sort of sitting there and he was on, he goes, I said, look at this, Dad.

29:16And he goes, Christ I love, he looks just like you, John. I was like, Jesus, Dad, it's probably you. Yeah. And it was amazing. There's not many times old school dads aren't ever proud. In fact, old school dads, it's what I call the Irish dream of never saying anything nice to your kid. And then when you die, you find out at your dad's funeral, he was ever so proud of you, you know. Oh, yeah. A great big scrapbook full of all your, followed your career. You know, so they leave you with guilt, right? the Irish tree you know he'll find out afterwards ah he loved you oh but he loved you he's ever so proud because he never fucking told me yeah anyway so it was lovely it was just a great moment and then and then I just I've worked solidly we have 30 whatever 32 years I haven't stopped and then like Big Breakfast comes about how did that even start at that time like Big Breakfast what do you mean the show or me on it well you on the show because like Big Breakfast and I only know this from people that I've met who now work in TV that are commissioners or execs everyone worked on it everybody worked on it everybody worked on it but the stories I hear from what it was like one everybody loved it so everybody I meet who worked in TV says oh we loved it you know even when it came back you had people that wanted to to work on it for myself and AJ obviously massive shoes to fill because it's such an iconic show they didn't they didn't give you the trouble is they missed the message of it with you a bit because I think you'd have been fucking great I watched it, I thought this is great they really get it, this is a, they've only had two shots of this, I watched like the second one and I'm thinking this is the second time, this is great this is great, you know this is, they really get it and it just needs time, it's the first thing is, it has to be every day weekly, what about The Big Breakfast said this should be a weekly show, nothing, if you're going to set it up really go for it also it's meant to be an alternative to dreary daily breakfast shows that's it's whole point this is how Channel 4 roll this is how they do it and without it I think at Channel 4 I always say without having your breakfast show it's like a school without assembly you've got to say who you are every day this is who we are this is what's on this is our talent first this is who we are this is what we're about it's where you promote yourself they've honestly since it's gone they're trying to be what they were and they're sort of thinking oh they're dotting around but there's nothing to solidify and focus if I was in charge of Channel 4 it's the first thing I'd do say no we're having a flagship breakfast show I love cheers repeats don't get me wrong I love Woody you know he's our record guest on the show but he he oh that's the 40 on 7 thing on Radio X between 4 and 7 every single day you've got to have it and with you and AJ they just had that chance that something looked and sounded and felt and was Channel 4 and could have been different.

32:15You're not about being like a kids live and kicking or Ant and Dec. It's not a Saturday fucking show or a kitchen show. You know, boring people cooking. It's about daily. No, it's not. What are you going to have? What? Now, when did that start? Saturday morning. What we need is some quite boring white chefs. Yes, that's what we need. We man going just add the gravy there put it banging a bit of onions make sure you don't burn them because you're going to need them later oh that smells lovely have you ever seen someone ever pick up and go that is disgusting jesus christ just add that and we'll brown that now i've got one here we go yeah that's because that's what the kids want on a saturday that's what the kids want isn't it it's everything we're going to be making and we're just going to scribble those in a chubbing vase.

33:06And if you haven't got a scribbling tray, you can use a gravelling dish or a muttok farm. You know, whatever. They just come out of these fucking things that no one's got at home. We're going to leave those for a bit. It's Saturday. Because you cook a bit yourself. They do that, don't they?

33:30I hate them all sort of busy. They're all sort of busy, aren't they? So what was it like for you on Big Breakfast though, man? And then we have pasta favores. And everyone goes, Mmm, that looks delicious. Bob. You know, what the fuck is that about? Oh, well, I'm going to enjoy eating that later. Right. Some people think bird watching isn't exactly what you think.

33:54Absolutely delicious. Steve. You know, you know that sort of flow and everyone's going, Mmm. I can't lie, that's me, I've been on these shows. I've been on them all. You know, you've got that one on Sundays, right? Which is, sometimes you have like nine panellists on that Sunday brunch just sitting there, just watching two bald guys fuck about in a kitchen, in some sort of fake oven, you know, just going you know, just and I like my potatoes like that, because and then Tim goes oh man, I can't wait to have that with some wine. Yeah, and then someone says something from that table, don't they? Someone goes can we try some?

34:35And they're like, what? Shut up! Shut up, the nine of you! You're just making it look like this big, uneasy, weird panel. You're thinking, this is live telling. It used to be such fun. You've got like, ten of you fuckers. And you're just making them watch you cook and wait for a mouthful. So what? Big breakfast. What was your, what was your vibe, Zach, on it? Because what was your, because I've heard, I heard there was a story that in the canal, they found a dead body. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we found lots of floaters down there. Really? Yeah, you used to always find floaters. That is great. It's a dead body.

35:09There's a dead body. We used to have mad things there. I bumped into... Here's an example. I don't even remember it, because you used to move on every day. I was... I used to do Curtis Stigers, yeah? You know, that guy. I wonder why we hold on with tears in the rain. You know, one of those sort of... I wonder why... No. What's that voice? What's that voice? I'm gonna be there he's got that kind of calling out his name but he's not that guy but he's got that similar voice that weird 103.6 the panda like Mark Wahlberg down his own I fucking love that anyway Curtis Stigas appear on one of those daytime shows not a cooking one but actually was a cooking one and he goes you he goes you lock me in a He goes, you like me in a fucking cupboard.

36:02I go, what? He goes, yeah, on that breakfast show. I go, oh, sorry. He goes, yeah. I was there for the whole fucking show. You never let me out. I sort of thought, I remember that. I remember it. We just, he was misbehaving. I go, no, Stigus, in the cupboard. And the crew put him in the cupboard. We finished the app. We just forgot about it. He was in the cupboard under the stairs for an hour and a half. Stigus, cupboard. Yeah, because they moved the piano and put it in front of it. He couldn't get out. He's only one we heard banging. Fucking hell. We had hilarious things on there. Just hilarious things.

36:38Because it looked like, it looked so fun and so crazy. It was so crazy. We had David Bowie turn up just because he wanted to be a sound man. Really? And he came in and he said, he goes, I just love the show, John. Oh, man, being here today, it's like I've won the lottery. Okay, so he says, lottery? Did you win the national lottery? it's my battery right now because it's from Brixton who's got that slight voice a bit like Suggs and he goes and he just wanted to hold the boom he goes you all look like you're having such fun I just wanted to join in so he just came in for the Christmas show he just wanted to do it and he just came to the shed had a chat and just hung out I'm a tremendous fan he used to have I love the show he used to get I'll get it sent out on VHS to California I think, you get the big break?

37:30You're a fan of mine. He used to get it sent out. He used to get it sent out. I was sitting with him in makeup. I was just looking across thinking, I'm in makeup with David Bowie. Fuck. And he's going, you know, I love watching it. And he goes, sometimes... And then we started talking about stuff. And he goes, do you want the feeling I hate? He says, sometimes I watch it there in my private study. And you know he's got that wife, the supermodel. Yes, yeah, yeah. He used to say, you know, you're waiting for a saucy picture to download. I'm thinking, hang on a second. He goes, well, what I quickly do and I'll quickly turn on that and make it out I'm down here watching a bit of the Big Bang while you're waiting to download a saucy picture it's just mad the guests you guys used to have on that show they're fucking crazy you guys like didn't you have Pavarotti on the show yeah Pavarotti has been on the show yeah I can't remember if he was on there you had some incredible guests on that show Bon Jovi it's a house band just in the corner Bon Jovi and just suddenly ripping out that is mad I've sung I've sung No Diggity with Teddy Riley my part was I liked the way you were a kid and mine was No Diggity on the No Diggity on the harmony line No Diggity no Diggity and it's harmony stacks up I've done the Master G slot on Rapper's Delight's Sugar Hill Gang I've done that bit because he couldn't turn up we had Grandmaster Flash and Fury 5 on there even though that's Sugar Hill game but it's similar so I've done that whole song with them with them good job I knew it I've sung Islands in the Stream with Kenny Rogers I've danced with John Travolta oh man we have crazy people on there was there anyone that you was on there with and you just look back and you're just like because I know you just mentioned David Bowie but is there like a guest that even when you had them on at this time it was like oh my god we're getting well one morning one morning yes loads of them one morning we had deep purple the metal band i'm not i mean a good band but they decided to reform and for some reason they thought were reform on the big breakfast so they opened the show with smoke smoke on the water.

39:51I was like, ladies and gentlemen, they haven't done this for, I don't know how many fucking years it was. They go, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the big breakfast. Here's Deep Purple. And we have, down, down, down. And they're there in our garden. And there's people literally who've come from Sweden on motorbikes just to watch them. The whole canal side was back. It was crazy. People on the other side, thousands of people just turned up just to see, just round this fucking garden to watch this metal band do smoke on the water. And they were great. They nailed it as well. They were really good.

40:21Yeah, we had amazing people. We had... We just had some really odd moments in there. You know, that you wouldn't... I don't know where they happened now. Did it ever feel like he was making TV, though, at the time? No, it really didn't. Just thought I was fucking around in his house. Because it was every day. And it needs that. So you're not nervous about it. You're just really comfy. You've got to work with the team. Because 90s TV is special, man. It's great. There's like... I grew up, obviously, as a 90s kid. but watching TV in the 90s, I'm so obsessed with how crazy the shows was, but then I'm so obsessed with how now everyone who was a runner, especially now being on the other side of being able to do television, says that I was a runner on this show.

41:04I worked on that show. But there's something amazing about British 90s TV because I watched documentaries and you had Britpop happening. But price came down. and this is what's sad what's sad is we all thought this is the beginning of something when it was the end and I don't know why why it should be cheaper than ever to do it right yeah yeah yeah everywhere everyone who's got a phone is an outside broadcast unit why aren't they used Denise and I did it briefly on our BBC One show where we did a show that used you know like phones out there as like an event doing something instead of having phone lines we're going what's your name and we'd have that phone line and they'd go Steve what are you phone Clackton you'd go hello and you'd be sort of looking like that because you couldn't see him no no you can see everyone you can do these things everyone is the price of cameras the price of everything the price of you know we did all that on tape you know when when we were doing the big breakfast they used to do all the interviews over in LA you used to have to book a slot on a satellite to beam the footage back That's mad.

42:17Yeah. Well, it was for one cameraman. I heard the research. Someone told me once. Well, you heard the story about the cameraman who sent the porn back. What? No. Yeah, yeah. On the end, it used to book like an hour slot. Yeah. And they'd been filming like interviews and stuff. And one of the cameramen, if you got an hour, you'd fill the end of the tape with something, yeah? So he filmed it by filming pornography off his hotel screen out in LA that he'd filmed, yeah? Well, he didn't realise you could clearly see him wanking at the reflection. Is it? So he sent back this tape. with his pornography and all you could see was his knees and this hand moving on his bed you could see the whole set up fucking funny man anyway it's terrible all I was going to say was I heard the researchers the research chats now they're on the phone that they used to go out there to do the research chat they'd do research chat with them yeah so like the research anyone listening you have a researcher now it happens over a phone or like a zoom call but back then they would fly out to meet Arnold Schwarzenegger just to do the research just to do the research when we had Arnie in there we had Arnold in there yeah this is for his Batman one when they Batman took over the house he had all the Batman cast there for that one which wasn't a good Batman and Arnold Schwarzenegger he's ended up and I used to have I interviewed him quite a lot because I had a film show as well so I spent quite a bit of time with Arnie and it's all interviewing like whole days sometimes because he's so childish it's nothing you can't understand what a kid is.

43:46So we were looking at the action figures for Batman. And I was sort of talking to him. And this is while we're just waiting to film. I've gone, look at that. I'll take Mr. Freeze down. He goes, no, you won't. Because Mr. Freeze will beat you every time. And he starts going like this. I'm suddenly thinking, we're actually fighting. I'm fighting. And he's serious. He goes, and I will do this. Consider the victory. He goes, continue to do the victory. He starts hitting my face. I go, well, you can't do that. Because I'll just get this one. I pulled out Robin or whatever the fuck. I just went boom, like that.

44:17And he stepped in with his other figures. And I'm thinking, I'm with Arnold Schwarzenegger waiting to film and we're just fighting with action figures. Yeah. Yeah, it's fucking crazy. Crazy. Do you ever look back though, like, because obviously that now where you are in your life now and your career, you've got, you know, you've got your own show on Radio X and... This is brilliant. Listening to you before, it was your radio writing and... What was your other one? You said radio... Radio writing Radio 4. Yeah. So like, the three R's. So like, now you're on radio, this is the thing that you've, you've loved and you're doing it now and you clearly have a love.

44:53I'm just like, your knowledge, you're like, a knowledge machine where you can just, but also like, you have the knowledge but you have like, your memory, your, your memory recollection is so vivid. Yeah. When you, even when you're telling about the pantomime stuff, it was so, I was there. There's another great lesson we have to learn, yeah? You know, when people say, seems like yesterday, can I say, remember, all memories are at an equal distance to the present. It's only when you pick up a phone and actually try and find a fucking photograph. But once you're on the photograph and looking at it, it doesn't seem any further away than the one you've taken yesterday.

45:26They're all memories at the same distance from the present. So that thing about it seems like years ago, all right, then you flick through the 10 ,000 pictures that lie between, you see there's a lot of life. But as you just jump to anything, it's right there. So your present now, being on radio, do you feel like... Because I find it as simple. Remember, The Big Breakfast came off the back of radio. So Chris Evans was a big radio man. And there was no item there longer than a record, which is how he saw it. Every item, the people who started it, it was like a radio show on telly. A bit like that.

45:58There used to be a show called Number 43, which was a kid's show that came from a house. I think Gabby Roslin was in it. And it was a kid's show, came from a house. And that's where they really got the idea from. So it did start as a Saturday show. Every single item with Chris was the same length as a record. then they'd have a link and breaks and whatever. But it was like, it used to be run exactly the same clock as a two-hour radio show. It was only when Denise and I came in, it was just a bit different. Because that show, like you would have done, definitely. It's such a free format that when they say, it doesn't work anymore.

46:30Yes, it does work. It'll always work. You just need the right people. The idea is there isn't the audience for it. No, that's a line of a failure who says that there isn't an audience for it anymore. That's because they've placed it wrong. you know, if you build it, they will come. That line from Field of Dreams, which I love. If you build it, they will come. This idea that when people in TV companies fail at something, it means they put the talent in the wrong place, the wrong show or at the wrong time. So you say, we've tried it, there isn't really the audience. Are you kidding me? What do you mean there isn't an audience?

47:01Well, there isn't an audience for a really entertaining breakfast show anymore. Really? And when have you tried a really entertaining daily breakfast show on Channel 4 recently? You got it wrong once, so everyone sort of backs away. now in America well I've worked on telly in America it's really good I didn't succeed there particularly or at all but why do you think that though because I didn't get long enough I had to come back and do the Capital Breakfast show so that was it it was a good show it was ABC Saturday night it was quite a good show but what's amazing once you're amongst people that's incredible though man yeah once you're amongst people in America who do a show so if you take over when I was on The Big Breakfast that was in the sports department when it was doing so badly.

47:43I'm not saying that's better. A channel for a long time. It was like it came under sports and suddenly we started doing really well. Then it was back in entertainment where it had never been. But in America, if you get given the job of looking after one of their big shows, that is a big honour. That's really big. In Britain, there's that thing of nobody's baby. Like the people who commissioned it have now moved on. That's all the credit for it because you're never going to get that. You know, he commissioned that show. You know, he commissioned whatever. that's gone now so whoever's sort of running it they've got to keep it going but they're never going to get that it's nobody's baby now they've moved on they've got all the plaudits out of it they almost want it to fizzle so they can have one of their ideas in their slot to make rather than sort of keeping something alive which you feel they should have done with Big Breakfast they should have just found you know kept going with it find new people always believe in it as a show you know I was very sad they put it on Saturdays with you like I said I thought it's just you know and I thought this has just got it you know there were moments even if you look at it now just I think they've done two of these now and it's got it you know it's really nice to see oh big ups man I appreciate that man and that means a lot coming from yourself and like I'm a TV chowder as well if it been shit I'll tell you yeah but you know what it is as well is like obviously for me and myself and AJ it's like obviously massive shoes to fill and it's such an iconic show and everyone's memories of it is so fond and exciting and myself growing up watching it before you go to school and like the wackiness and the silliness and the escapism of what's going on in the world but you just have this two hours block.

49:20So where do they stick it? Saturday morning once a week. No, what I mean is they'll then say that's because they put it in a wrong, they put the right people wrong, you know right shape, wrong shaped whole. So because they do that it means, now we've tried it just doesn't, there's no room for the big breakfast because you're thinking, no, you tried a show on a Saturday morning and like four, how many shows did you do? Four or five, something like that. Yeah, we've done four. Four, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking, that's what we did in a week. Would you, if they brought it back and done it as a weekly show, would you do it?

49:53No, no, because it's for young people to do. It's not, it's like watching me do it now and be like, you know, there's this thing that happens where it's like watching your dad dance and you feel it about yourself. Yeah. You know, you just feel that when you're doing something, you're thinking, I look old in this you know it's like what I used to last time I did the summertime ball when I was at Capitol I was thinking you start watching your dad dance isn't it I'm off here now you know singing like black eyed peas at Wembley I look like a prick you know I just look old but at the same time that's brave to say because no you just that music is pop the music I do now you know I play a music this is from a it's a great book by James Elroy called Dick Contino's Blues.

50:39It's a beautiful book. And it's about the greatest piano accordion player in the world. It's a true story. And Dick Contino, he got a reputation as a draft dodger. He didn't actually. He fought in Korea. He tried to get out of it first, but they got him in there. But everyone had him down as a draft dodger. He wasn't. But when he got back from war, he was still waiting for work. And a friend of mine says, why don't you play weddings? I mean, you could get gigs. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. I won't. I'm waiting. He goes, because I won't play. I want to play a music I love to an audience I respect.

51:08And that's always how you've got to be. And I'll try and find that wherever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And after a while you realise, you know, that's not your music really. And you've got to have that enthusiasm if you're doing it. Yeah. And that's the way it is. So like when you start to look at like your end in some ways, because you're a family man, do you know what I mean? Like you have the things you're interested away from like your job. Because I know you like cars as well, right? I vaguely like cars, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I've got a watchman. I like travel a lot I really like to travel and sort of move around and I love food food's something you start to love more and more as you get older and you really start getting into sort of food and I think as well I think travelling brings it out of you because you taste when you go to Italy and you have pasta in Italy and you're like ah this is not the same way not like a soprano not like an episode where Paulie just wants gravy yeah so i but i i i'd say books are really just what i what i kind of stick with so like in your end do you ever look at like what the next chapter kind of looks like or starts to become you know because we have children are you trying to ask me where do you see yourself in five years no not even five years but just like you know like you've had something tomorrow john no but like you you had a really amazing career like your story is sensational in some ways like you know from going from growing up in North London.

52:35You're saying the ups and downs, but for me, listening to it, I don't know, I think I relate to it in a way where... Hey, what did we say about the mental editor? What did I say? It sounds like that, doesn't it? It sounds fun. I didn't make jail sound fun. You see what I did there? I took out the misery, the boredom, the default terror of every day. You see exactly what you've fucking done. Yeah? You've got to watch that. That's the mental editor doing shit. It's like when you see yourself in five years, if I knew, I'd be so gutted if I could see myself in five years. I'd hate it. I would no longer want to know that or plan that that I would sit down here now and you'd do a new podcast called Mo Gilligan's Ouija Hour where we just go in the fucking glass and say, ask it, Mo, ask it.

53:24You know, welcome to Mo Gilligan's Voodoo Hour. But we're not going to fucking do that, you know? But you know what it is, though, John, like yeah your career is like you've had a fruitful career like just from you know coming from North London you're going to Nottingham you go to prison you come out you write you're on television you go to America like the people that you even know or mingle with like just to you know have the names that roll off of like yeah you know like Gordon Ramsay and these kind of people where like he's a good guy actually when I got divorced he looked over my wall and went like that I was like that he went like this this is the conversation I've had two good visual conversations in my life one of them is Gordon looking over my wall and he just went because he'd heard it was all over I was sitting in the house really miserable he looks over and he goes I went he went he just fucked off the other one was when I was interviewing Matt Damon in my shed during the interview the results the Oscar nominations came in and I was handed these cards.

54:33It was for the talented Mr. Ripley. And I said to Matt, and the questions came in, so the nominations come out halfway during the interview. Matt Damon's obviously hoping he's got a nomination or whatever. So I said, how do you feel about Jude Law getting a nomination for Best Supporting Actor for the Oscars? He goes, oh, are the nominations out? I go, yeah, they are. And he looked at me and went, I went, how about that? How about that? It was so slight. I've got it somewhere. It's a fantastic moment, though, that that's someone's fucking dreams. And then he carried on with the interview. What a pro.

55:08I'll tell you what I'll do. I'm going to fuck off, yeah? I've loved this. Yeah? At the moment, right? Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait, go on. You ask Sean and I'll ask Matt. Okay, okay. What I was going to say is, I've got to fuck off because I've got a meeting at 1.15, yeah? So what I'll do is, at the moment, we're really at the end of the big breakfast, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is nice. Now, you'll have a time, definitely, when a guest will blow you out, provided you don't get lots of negative feedback. I'll be here for part two, rather than wrapping that up fast, because I over-talk everything.

55:39So, I'll be here for part two. I've got to go to part two as well, Rob. What? I've got to go to part two as well.

55:49No, I was going to say, we can do part two of my beginning, middle, end. So, we're probably halfway through the middle there. So, next time you come, we'll do the end. we'll do middle well there's gonna be it's career without end yeah but I shall see you later what were you gonna ask I wanted to ask you your end what do you want what do you want people to well that'll have to wait till next time because I've got to go no but like your end in some way I know you've got to go yeah but like when people talk about Johnny Vaughan when you're no longer here how do you want them to talk about you how do you want your name to be remembered because I know how I like to talk about you do you know what I mean?

56:29that you pop in and you're always cool you've got time for people and your story is charismatic I think do you know what I think yeah? I think if you in life I don't know this is one of the only sort of things I've worked out the difference between when I was like really you know really famous and cracking I didn't perhaps care so much sometimes you have some knockbacks to appreciate things and it's this if you walk around act like you own the place, you never will. If you walk around and love the place, you already do. That's true for the world, it's true for everything. That's it. I was remembered in any way as someone who just loved it.

57:15I believe that. An absolute enthusiast with not an ounce of shredding them, not an ounce of hating them, except maybe, I feel it sometimes when I watch Trump these days on telly, but not so much for him because he's but that JD Vance but really no real hate for anything because ultimately I just start finding things funny but that's it listen we shall continue this another time this has been your beginning middle and end Johnny big up my brother love man you've got such a lovely way about you hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes into making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars.

58:00And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated. And we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace. So I'm 36 and suddenly everything that used to feel easy just didn't. It honestly hit me around 34. Same workouts, same diet. But I felt like I was moving through mud. Nobody really talks about this, but most men start losing testosterone around 30, about 1 % every year. That's what led me to Mars Men. I learned your body still makes testosterone, but a lot of it gets locked up by this protein called SHBG.

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