Hak Baker: “I Learned Guitar in Prison… It Changed My Life”

0:00This is Gloria Estefan. Over 1 million women and 2.5 million children experience homelessness in our country every year. The National Women's Shelter Network is dedicated to ensuring that no woman or child will ever have to live on the streets. You can make a difference. Please visit THENWSN.org and donate today.

0:32Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and right now you are listening to my podcast, Beginning, Middle, and End. Now, what a treat of a guest I have for you today. He's one of East London's very own storytellers who doesn't just MC, but he does G-folk. That's right. His journey has not been clean or conventional, and he's honest enough to speak about everything. He speaks about how he was able to learn and play guitar while in prison, but he also said he doesn't like being put into a box or a label. That's right, this episode is about growth, mistakes, redemption and finding your voice when life forces you to sit down.

1:09But this guest loves standing up. He's not a stand-up comedian, he's a singing sensation. Please welcome to the podcast, Hack Baker. How are you doing, bruv? You alright? I'm good, you know. I'm happy. Yeah? Good start to the year so far for you then, yeah? Yeah, just for myself, really. I've been trying to implement change. Okay. Which is always difficult. Yeah, yeah. When you're just fucking set up a certain way. But like, you get to a fucking age, it's like things have got to change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I know what you mean, because I just turned 38. So now I'm on this, like, listen, my time off is my time off, you know?

1:49Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there'd be times, you know, when you're off a bit and you're like, oh, check a couple emails or got to do this. when I'm off now. Listen, I was, yesterday I had my family around, my nephews there, we're playing Mortal Kombat, having food, fun times. I was like, hey, this is, this is nice, you know? It's always the simple things that you revert back to. Things that you used to fucking take for granted before. 100%, bro. And then these are the things that you fucking can't wait to do these days. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's one thing that, one thing I've realised.

2:20It's this family, doing nothing, not answering the fucking phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Walking around the park with your mate. Simple stuff. Where did you grow up? Because you was a choir boy at a Southwark Cathedral, right? As a child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They set me up. So where did you grow up then? I grew up on the Island Dogs, East London. But then how was your choir boy in Southwark? Because they came to my primary school. And that's, I think, that's how they used to recruit people. Ah, okay. So they came to my primary school. I didn't know what was going on. They just told us, we had an assembly, and it's like sing so I was like alright so I was on and then I won it was like it was a final me and me old school Chinese best mate Fee Fee 2 big up Fee and it was me and him and I won and then suddenly they was like go to this church every Friday so I just went yeah year 6 and then one afternoon when I went there they was like right so Sunday come in you're going to be inducted as a cathedral chorus I was like what are you on about yeah yeah and they were like yeah I think you've got to go home and talk to your mum.

3:21And I said, mum, they're talking about this. And they said, yeah, man. You're gonna be a choir by it, I can sing. And I was like, and that's it. When mum speaks. He's like, listen. Listen, there's no arguing. And that was that. So I was a choir boy for four or five years. I hated every second of it, but it informed me in how to sing and do things. And now I've used that in my formative years to play guitar and la la la la la la. All the skills that I didn't know what I was acquiring then or what I use now. Do you know what I mean? So everything happens for a reason. Though I hated it, I wouldn't be able to do what I do now if I didn't do that.

3:58Because you're proper East London. You can hear it. Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? Proper East. But that's why I had to ask because of the Southwark Cathedral. I was like, oh, maybe you was like Bermondsey-ish South. No, I have no connection to Bandit Country. I'm just, I'm East London to the fullest. I respect Bandit Country because we was like just over the water from there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm East London to the fullest. So you're singing at such a young age. What did you want to do when you was younger then? I had no idea. Football, sport? I was always sporty, but I didn't want to play football, nothing like that.

4:34I don't think I even, at that age, 11, I don't know what I wanted to do. Everyone was always pushing me to do something that was educational because I was smart. But I knew that in my heart, that was not what I was going to do. When you say smart, academically, like words or numbers? Both. Is it? Yeah, both. I'm very gifted when it comes to words and numbers. Oh, okay. Man, I always used to be jealous of you, kind of kidding. I was on the table, boy. We was all struggling, man. No, it was good. That's why I had to get away with being naughty. So smart. Yeah, man. So I guess it's interesting how you find that creative spark with then singing in a choir with someone who's quite...

5:16Because I always find that if you're academically gifted at such a young age, you kind of run with that in some senses. Do you know what I mean? Or I would say probably more family members can push that onto you. Do you know what I mean? If you're the one, you're like, no, you're the smart one. You're going to have to be the accountant and lawyer. Do you know what I mean? I completely understand what you're saying. And that's what my mum tried to do. But that's why we always met at Loggerheads. Because I just knew in my art, that's not what I wanted to do. she was always trying to push me to do something kind of educational but that was just not what i was interested in at all in the slightest i would do me work uh as to the best of my ability but like i'll just know i was too fidgety fidgety for that i was it had to be something and donnie do you know i mean that was never going to work at all who's your early inspirations musically at that time?

6:09Oh, oh, um, obviously, Mr. Bob Marley was my number one inspiration, Budra Banton, I'd say, um, who else? Luciano, a lot of reggae artists, but then also Bone Fogs and Harmony and Busta Rhymes, I still love Madonna, Holiday, was one of my favorite kids. She's got some bangers, you know? What? If you know, you know, Madonna in the 80s. What? Real bangers, undefeated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favourite Madonna tracks is Lucky Star. If you give me a lucky star. I like the song more as well once I've seen the film Snatch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bullet Tooth Tony, innit? But all kind of music.

6:55All kind of music. I love everything, really. I love everything. Everything. Loads of SWV. Ooh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know I'm so happy. All kind of tunes, though, I loved. I loved everything I loved everything yeah because you is it right I've heard that you learnt to play guitar when you was in prison yeah yeah how did that come about I didn't know they had guitars in prison you know I'm going to be real with you bro what about like it was weird they just come on the wing and they said oh there's prison I mean there's guitar lessons going on and I said yeah I'll have a bit of that and then my name got pulled out of that really yeah oh shit it was like yeah it was random like that So that just, that, would you say that was the catalyst of what kind of changed your life in some ways then?

7:41Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. But there's no, what's the word I want? Nothing's done by accident, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always had an interest in guitar and I remember when I was a kid, when I was doing guitar lessons in school, I think I'd done one. I never, I would never get called out for some reason. I remember further, I always got bare guitar lessons and I'd never got them, you know what I mean? So like, but yeah, it was meant to happen. I've always wanted to play guitar, you know. I swear. I've always wanted to be the guy at a party. That could whip out. That whips out the guitar.

8:16I did that. You done that. I did that. I knew you got bad things in it. Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, but yeah, sorry. What was the song? What was the song you sang on guitar? I'd do my own thing. Yeah. I never knew anyone else's tunes. so they're like oh did you write that I said yeah man I'm writing that and then yeah yeah man because anybody can whip at a guitar you're like oh man a good friend of mine Baba Tunde he's a comic he's got a really funny bit about like a joke about but the amount of times like you go to a party and someone whips at the guitar you're like oh bro yeah yeah because you know he's going to clean up yeah he's cleaning when you were younger you're like oh bro come on I can't believe I managed to be that guy yeah You know what annoys me is when they do the figure, they're trying to tune it.

9:13Oh yeah, I found, I found. Any songs? Okay, let's give this one a try. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Free little butter. Yeah, yeah. Oh no, I don't like that one. No, no, sing it, sing it. You're like, oh, I love it. No, I was aggressive with it. I would whip out and play. Those were good times. Yeah. Those were good times. It's when man does the scratch sound. on it. I'm like, oh, bro, put down the guitar, man. There's no teens left, man. So like, you learned to play guitar in prison. Was there also anyone in your life that would you say like changed it, like changed, changed it for you in a sense of, because it's like there's one thing finding an instrument that is the catalyst to change in your life or was there also a standout person at the same time?

9:59Do you know what I mean? Because, I only ask that because what you're saying about, how you're quite gifted academically. And like your mum's like, go church, but also be smart. Do you know what I mean? I think I would have to say my friend Ali, he was in a band before, but even when I was a young boy, I was just kind of look up to him. And he was super musical, super smart, different. When we used to MC, he used to be the engineer. and but like then when i come out of jail i heard he was in a band and i missed all this i didn't really know what was going on he was in the band he was doing really well and um when i realized i wanted to play guitar he was the first person that i went to and um his lead singer and his band just died and i was just about to get signed so he wasn't really in the best place but i said to him look i want to do this do this and he's like all right give me six months i'm going to build a studio and the Giza literally built a studio and then took me in and we used to make we used to I used to go to his studio like two to three days a week every week for about a year and a half just working on this sound just working on this thing because what we do is very very unique and he really just coaxed me through it because he knew a little bit about the music business and the industry and just really helped me develop without him I just don't I think I would be here where I am now.

11:27And like, he doesn't really make as much music as at the moment. He's got two kids and he's doing some other stuff. But like, I really want him to start doing that again. But without him, I wouldn't be where I am now. You know what I mean? So definitely my mate Ali, blah, blah, big old Ali, he definitely put me in this position, made me where I am now. Without him, I wouldn't be here. Do you know what I mean? It's amazing how your friends are like your family that you pick for life. Do you know what I mean? In some ways. No, no, without fail, man, my friends, again, without my friends, I don't think I'd be here.

12:01They're the ones, like my best, my good friends, they really encourage me to do it. And lads don't fucking play guitar, do you know what I mean? Even though we do, and we should, and we should be encouraged to do things different, but not where I'm from. When I first started playing guitar, everyone was convinced that I was just pissed at me head. Yeah, yeah. And just being a cunt, do you know what I mean? but my best friends was like they knew I had something different and they would push me and they're my best friends to this day still over 20 years so yeah without them then they give me the confidence to stick to what I was supposed to do do you know what I mean I love my friends I've been with my friends since 12 11 yeah and they're still my friends now that's them proper friendships yeah that's like when you're with your boys and someone will say so how are you guys friends?

12:53You look at each other, you're like, you know when someone says, so how did you guys meet then? And you're like, oh, we don't really get deep like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't really want to touch heartstrings at the moment.

13:07Like, man, we're just drinking beers, man. We're drinking juice, man. It's not bad. And people don't really, people don't really have those kind of long lasting friend relationships anymore. It's very hard. Yeah, I think it's very hard, man. But we do. like me and my friends we really really really do like I go through my phone and look at these the photos of us mmm it's the same people that I'm in photo you've seen with today that come to my gigs today that are going to the pub with today I go to the dance if I go to the gym with the same powers I mean and I don't want no new powers like that yeah yeah yeah so hard to find powers like that yeah I think as you get older one I think what happens is when we get older we just we get to like you know when you understand your parents you're like now I know why you lot stick to what you lot know exactly even I used to piss you off back in the day yeah yeah yeah why your uncle would still say no no I need a whiskey on the rocks I want it straight and it must be in a crystal glass and you're like why does he want it like this but he's got to a point where he's like I know what I like do you know what I mean and I think it's the same with like friends and friendships where you're like I've got enough now got enough now we all know what we like what we don't like.

14:18Got enough now. Who, when it comes to football banter, I can have a laugh with. Who takes too serious? Who's not even involved? Me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not involved with the football stuff? No, I love Arsenal. I've always supported Arsenal my whole life. But like, I don't... Like, my dad told me something when I was a kid. He said, don't let it piss you off because I'm making millions and millions and millions and we're poor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's something I need to do. My old man said that to me. My old man will say, little bits of nuggets of gold he always gives me.

14:45I didn't get with him all the time. but he always sometimes would give me gold and it's one of the pieces of gold he gave me and when he told me that something just clicked and I was like I see people losing their mind over football and I'm like my boy they're still getting millies like we're still I'm still you know I'm living in a room in fucking Victoria Park you know sharing with random people why do I give a fuck that's what I mean I love Arsenal most multicultural fucking football team love Ian Wright met him when I was in jail as well amazing you met him when you was in jail Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:17Oh, shit. He did, like, these football academies and rugby academies and that. And, like, I met him in there. We went to football. Oh, shit. Great stuff. You know what I mean? I'm really my favourite player of all time. You know what I mean? But I don't give a fuck that. Big up righty, though, man. Righty's the man. He is a national trainer. He needs to be knighted, you know? He should do. I think... I'm going to have a bath in Babylon still. Yeah, but... You know, I think the name sir will just ring a little bit different, though, with Ian Wright. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I hear you.

15:43Because Ian is like, bro, when I met Ian Wright, he's the reason why I support Arsenal. Yes. But he was the first person where I understood what starstruck was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people just say it. And sometimes I've seen someone, I'm like, oh, that's that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Ian, different love and energy, you know. He doesn't even give it all that. Oh, bro, he's so authentic. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, I had this long running joke that I've been doing for a few years, yeah, where like, I was wishing him happy Father's Day, innit? So then I'd be like, happy Father's Day, Ian, innit?

16:17And then someone one time said, oh, is that your dad? And then Ian Wright replied, innit? Oh, thanks a lot, son, innit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then every year, I'd always do it. Happy Father's Day, Dad. Happy Father's... And then I looked on Google one time and it was like, is Ian Wright Mo Gilligan's dad? I said, middle England will believe anything. Yeah, they'll never believe anything when they won't believe. Yeah, man. Especially if you're like, yeah, that black person must be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You must know each other. You know what's meant? Because it's like, it's like we do know each other, though.

16:48Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though you ain't met someone, you're like, I know you do, you know? Yeah, yeah. You get me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If I don't know you, I guarantee I know someone you know. It's the black people. Every time we see random black people somewhere, you're just getting a little nod. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a universal nod. Do you know what I mean? And you know what? You know that Gideon's a cunt. If he don't give you that nod back, you'll hate him. Yeah. it's when it's especially you know if you're in another country as well where you're like rah we really stand out yeah yeah yeah and then you're like you could be in Thailand or someone like that Ukraine I don't know maybe not Ukraine but you could be somewhere and Belgium you see you look at him you're like I think that's one of the Mandans I think you know because don't get me wrong in countries like France yeah yeah yeah like the French black people look like Londoners probably Amsterdam to them as well.

17:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in some countries, you're being like, you're being a rural Spain. I need to see a one black man. Yeah. It's the crepes as well sometimes. You're like, well, no socks with a 110. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like you're one of the men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done, bro. We staying cool, yeah? Yeah, yeah. You enjoying the tour as well? You're giving the realest... You're like, you're holding that, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Universal. Universal. Ah, so what? He came into your prison, Ian Wright? Yeah, no, We went to, we got Rottal, which is released on temporary licence.

18:12We went to, what's that big rugby stadium? Twickenham. Oh, Twickenham. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He used to do the courses for football. He used to do the football academies. He used to do the rugby academies for prisoners. Yeah, yeah. In my jail as well, I was in Portland. And yeah, it was, that's what it was known for as well, to do those kind of academies and things like that. And we went over there and met him. I sent a picture of me and him to my mum for her birthday and she was over the moon. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Mums love that stuff, man. There's only a few in there you put all up.

18:41I'd say Ian Wright in there. Lenny Henry in there. I'd say Richard Blackwood in there. Yeah, Richard Blackwood did a lot for us. Ainsley, Harriet. The little chef man in there. When I met Ainsley, I was pretending like I worked gas, you know. He was going to Arsenal game. And then I was like, I looked at him, I said, that's Ainsley. I said, what are you saying? Man, like Ainsley. He didn't clock me at first, did he? I was like, Ainsley, lie on me, man. Let me take on my hat, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know me, bro. He's been on telly forever. Ainsley Harriot. He was mad cool, you know. You know how I know it's old school.

19:10I said, listen, man, come to the show, man. He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I ain't got no agent, but take my email. So when you've released, like, you've dropped your first, it's World's End FM, right? Yeah, my first album, yeah. That's your first album? Yeah. What was that like, putting out, like, finding, like, a body of work at this point? Well, you're probably fighting a lot of imposter syndrome. And, you know, you've got to get over yourself. And then when you do it and the way it was received, it was really well received by people. So it probably just led me to... This is Gloria Estefan. Over 1 million women and 2.5 million children experience homelessness in our country every year.

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20:59probably get more pissed than ever because like you don't want at this point you want to be closer to your friends and all the separation anxiety because you're going into different spaces and um you don't ever want to for me anyway it's really important for me to be close to my friends and family yeah and you don't ever want to feel like you're going away from them so i'd probably fight to be with them more than ever do you know what i mean okay because my friends are super important to me do you know what i mean and i don't want to ever be in a space where i would feel separated from them but luckily i've got really really really really really really good friends and they tell me that i deserve the things that was going on and the accolades that one was achieving and receiving at that time so yeah really i was just probably more with myself more than ever Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:53Is it hard to get lost in the moment, do you find, where you start getting this notoriety? Because I can't imagine what it's like for a musician. Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like musicians, as much as it's the music you want to put out, it might be the image. It could be the interviews. People got to know about you. You got to maybe go, I don't know, like a London Fashion Week or something. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. It's difficult because I'm not from there at all. I'm really not from there I'm from old East London like very very old East London and I'm old school my morals are old school and so I don't I don't want to sometimes I feel like I don't want to be aligned with those things I want to be aligned with what made me and I want to stay there but you know as you get older you realise that one is very susceptible to change everybody's susceptible to change and one should allow that to one should allow that to penetrate you know why for that but you know what I mean but um

22:57you can't let that go everyone can change but love love love love love love love love for that one but you know what I mean so um but yeah it is yeah man change is change is good and one one usually really really really fights against change but I've tried I've allowed I'm figuring out how to let that take its course and be comfortable with that, you know. I'm a lot more comfortable with that now, you know. Anything that I receive is what I deserve. And even saying those things out loud used to be very difficult. And now I'm learning to say, no, that's what I deserve. That's who I am. That's who I was always meant to be.

23:39So this change and this ascension is allowed and well served. Do you know what I mean? Are there spaces that you still feel like you're yet to occupy away from music. Because it's like I was saying just a minute ago where, you know, you've got to go to a London fashion week and you're quite a fashionable man. Do you know what I mean? Like I see you match the jeans with a hat. Don't pretend you didn't plan to do that. If you see how I got ready this morning, there's only one person that knows, bro, I just said, because I was out last night. Yeah. But there is a little bit where you said, Hey, never let me just see you.

24:20I know what colour hat can happen to you. Yeah, yeah, peace, peace, peace, peace. But yeah, cool, but all those places, honestly, Mo, you go to these places and you see people act like pricks and I will never be like that. I'll always be myself and that's what I'll pride myself as. I'm never going to change for anyone. I'm never going to try and act like anything else. I know what the hell I am. I know who I am, you know, and I have no interest in changing for anybody. So those spaces I go there and be my show for if they don't like it and fuck them. I've no interest in sucking up to anybody or trying to change.

24:53I like who I am. Yeah. Now finally, I like who, yeah. And I think for you as a black artist, the music you make, like your voice is very different. Yeah. As well, do you know what I mean? So I guess you must also find yourself in spaces where they kind of label you as the alternative act. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the only reason why I asked you this is because I met Miles Smith recently. I don't know who that is. You don't know Miles Smith? Mm-mm. Oh, so he's, I think he won a Brit award and stuff. Doing really well for himself. But, you know, we're at this fancy dinner and stuff, and he made this joke, and he's like, yeah, I'm like the Blackhead Sherrin.

25:28Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his music is kind of like, I would say it's like folk music, essentially. Great, yeah. And, you know, we're talking about music and stuff, but I was intrigued at how when we were at this dinner, and him saying, like, yeah, like, I'm, you know, he's just mad humble. He's like, yeah, like, I'm just from Luton, innit? Do you know what I mean? I was born in Luton. Yeah. He was born in Luton. Aye, Luton is real, you know? Luton is real. Luton is realer than London, you know? Luton is rough and real. Luton, he would have known, Luton is rough. Luton is the realest place, you know?

25:59And a lot of yard men, a lot of black people Yeah, there's a lot of black people in Luton. Luton and Bedford. Yeah, all them sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lucky, I will say luckily, my mum brought me to East London before I was like one. Yeah. and I landed there. But I had a lot of time in it. My dad lived there. My grandma lived there. It was nice to get there. It was rough over there. Hey, Luton. Listen, I watched 24 hours in police custody. You see it? Yeah, yeah. I'd get enough over there. Listen, big up Luton, you know? No problems in Luton, you know? Yeah, no, it's rough over there.

26:28No, it's mad. It's mad you say, I've done a show there recently and I love taking my shows to places that I know a little bit rough around the edges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know my audience and I know what they want to come out to. I remember once we'd done on a show in Middlesbrough. And I was like, this is, I'm in the North East, but the rough North East. Do you know what I mean? But the people, they came out, they show love. And I know that's where my audience is. You know, when you go to a place where they're like, yeah, man, I fuck with you, man. You come here, man. But people don't really come like you.

26:57You know what I mean? Because I think when you do that for your audience, that's when they're like, yeah, nah, nah, nah. You didn't even need to come here. But you came. Do you know what I mean? But now I've got a lot of time for looting, man. So like, you're saying in terms of you as a musician so i kind of cut but like how do you find it when you get labeled as that kind of alternative act as a black act for the music you do do you know what i mean do you know what is when those things happen i just have to big up my mum because my mum from young let me know who i am and the stereotypes i'm going to come across um it's funny because because I sound like it's because I have such a Eastlander vernacular people sometimes make the mistake and thinking I don't know who I am or what's going on but I'm the most I think I'm one of the most well-informed young black people out there like when it comes every Sunday my mum was making sure without fail I was doing my times tables but she was making me know about black orators, Black Kingdoms, you know, Martin Luther King, all those, you know, top, top, top Marcus Garvey, serious people.

28:07Yeah. They should make me read and see where I come from, you know, Black inventors, everything. So I'm very well informed and when people make these assumptions and say stupid things like that, I think guitar music came from Black people. Black people singing about their struggles playing guitar was called the blues yeah rock and roll rock and roll do you understand what i'm saying folk music this is where we started we started this from long time so when people say these things to me i just immediately know you're less you're not as well informed as i am you're ill-informed yeah so i immediately downgrade my conversation with them and talk to them how they deserve to be spoken to you know and keep my head up high and and walk past them my mum empowered me with all the tools that I need to walk through, walk in any room and walk in any country in the world.

28:57That's why I love my mum. And we didn't get along, didn't get along super well when I was young. And I have to leave, I left my house very, very young. But when I left, I felt I had all, as I said, I had all the tools, I had the keys, I had the pick locks, I had everything. And I could leave, I could cook, I could talk, I could do everything because my mum gave me all those tools. So back to your question, yeah, people hit me with rubbish like that. But like I just, when people hit me with that I talk to them how they deserve to be spoken to because they're idiots. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

29:29Because I guess as well sometimes people think the black experience must be singular. Do you know what I mean? Like it must be like well, you know your black experience must be the London experience I know that is quote unquote you must be from this and you must talk like this and the minute you sound a little and I guess it's different I guess when you're from London because London is, I can't even call it a city. It's its own place within the UK. Do you know what I mean? North London is different to South. East is different to West and vice versa. Do you know what I mean? Even places in East London, you lot got different slang in different parts of East.

30:09I didn't know this. The borough of Newham have different slang to Tower Hamlets. I didn't know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn't know this. We're very different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple of miles down the road. is different. Different terms and stuff. You ain't gonna hear someone talk like me in, say, well, you might do, but like, in acne, they're gonna sound different. If it was old school acne, they might sound like me, but I'm 35. I grew up with old school. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, this is how, do you know what I mean? And you'll go and you'll see other lads that look like me.

30:45Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Even that, we went to the Caribbean yesterday in Brixton and the lady was like, to me, I thought you was putting it on. I said, put them on. What are you on about? I'm from East London. I'm in here getting the Caribbean roast with a duck chicken. So don't... Anyway, that's how it goes. I feel like that's where you use your intelligence to your benefit. Where you're just like, here we go. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. As opposed to being like... I'm getting aggressive and that too. That could never draw me out. But also in terms of like away from music well I say it's still with music and stuff but you co-own the label Bond Blue?

31:28Yeah. Yeah. The old school Bond Blue. Bond Blue? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big up my budge and Lily. Talk to me about this because bruv I grew up in South London in the 90s yeah and everyone was wearing Bond Blue bruv. Yeah, yeah. I always wanted a tracksuit. Baby blue, pink, peach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It used to be a shop yeah. If anyone remembers if you're listening from South London there was a shop in South London called, I think it's called Peppermint. Yeah. And they had like, they had like designer clothes for kids, but ones that were reachable. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So you had brands in there like Ted Baker.

31:59Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Ben Sherman. Felt reachable for the people that didn't have much money. Do you know what I mean? A little bit of money if you had it. If you had it, yeah. But Bond Blue. Yeah. Oh my God. How did this even come about? So I've again, big up my mate Lily, randomly about six, seven years ago. she just rang me up she's my pal and she's like are you interested like she was just like would you like to like buy Bon Blur like whatever and I was like yeah of course like I was like how so basically it was her god mum that started the brand about 30 years ago she was trying to bring it back she was trying to have it make it have a resurgence she couldn't do it so I just wanted to sell it so she first person naturally she went to Lily who's my good friend of mine she makes music as well and then Lily shouted me and I was like, absolutely, let's get that.

32:53Because again, what you said, that was the brand that my mum wanted and I said, mum, let me get, oh yeah, I talked about Bumbler, Bumbler, what that? Never could reach that. Yeah, yeah. Outside school, everyone was wearing it and, you know, in school, outside, people you see the mum selling it outside school and all that, something that it was, it was wrapped in, it was wrapped in so much nostalgia.

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34:22when she shouldn't see um through the idea i mean i was like yeah we must acquire that so we got that and we bought that and we just released our first set of track shoots and i think um we're gonna go from strength to strength of it because everybody knows what it is all the old school know what it is Yeah, Bond Blue, you know? Yeah, man. Fucking... That is still like... There's certain brands from back in the day that had such an influence. And any time when I see them pop up, I'm like, oh, right. Like... So now you're in this space of owning a label, because it's like throwback label. It's like a Bond Blue.

35:00So is this you venturing into more stuff than just music in some ways? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Definitely. I've always been onto... I've always had essence of entrepreneur wrapped in me, you know what I mean? I've always tried to make dough that's got to be made, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. doing that, there's other things, we're writing books, we're writing like scripts for films and stuff, we're doing all sorts, you know what I mean? We've got our own beer, we own our own beer. Yeah, I mean, my mates like, we got our own beer that we're in like 12 pubs.

35:31Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, rotted. Yeah, man, Reef House Lager, yeah, man, Block Brew. yeah we're in a load of pubs star bethnal green that was one of our first servers but yeah yeah man just trying to do jumping into spaces where you generally really think like you know young people or young black people wouldn't be able to like venture in yeah yeah of course we've never really had that feeling that we've always thought that we can do whatever we want always had that feeling in me do you know what I mean so yeah yeah just jumping into places we've just started really we want to take over and do good things.

36:08Yeah. And that really, like, show young people that everything and anything is possible. We've always believed that. We've always had that belief. We've seen lads achieve, we've seen young, where I'm from, achieve crazy stuff. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, like, we don't have, we just think, yeah, everything's doable. Was there people that you grew up with who are relatively successful now? Yeah, but not by even doing the most, you know, legit of things. but they went out and did it and they tried you know what I mean like no one could no one could tell them no we have that I've got that embedded in my soul no one could tell me no if you told me no that means yes you know what I mean like I gotta do it I've always did it but look how crook I'm gonna get it done my catchphrase is get it done yeah yeah that's it no we gotta get it done is that also to set you up for a long later in in life yeah because I feel like and I answer this question as a musician where, and this is only from what I hear about musicians when they talk about everyone wanting to go down the route of being an independent artist going down the route of whether they are I don't know, they do their own merch you're in the space of owning a fashion label and getting into different other little business ventures because music essentially is changed from what I guess it was, let's say, 30 years ago.

37:37Do you know what I mean? Where it's just like, it felt like you talk of like, whether it's Graham artists, I had to go to the record stores and print a couple, you know what I mean? Dub plates and stuff and sell them and stuff. So how does the music treat someone like, you know what I mean? Like yourself in terms of the business side of music? Is it profitable to make a living off it? Or do you have to do other side missions to make sure you set yourself up later in in life? You have to do side missions. Music ain't the profitable business that it was, unless you're signed and got the machine behind you and all that.

38:12Definitely has to do side missions, which I'm okay with. I've got the energy to do loads of stuff, luckily. I'm Jamaican, our blood is tenacious. We've had to prevail. I'm Canadian because I have to make sure I shout out my Canadian. But yeah, I've never had, as I said again just before, no don't mean anything so I've always had the energy to do other stuff the music won't pay you like that anymore they've taken that away from us all the bigots and the top cats and the big cats have made the money whilst we produced the art do you understand yeah yeah yeah of course but what it does what the music does is give you that visibility where you're able to do other little side things do you know what I mean to make little change off that but it's unfortunate you know you pour your heart and soul into music you know and it doesn't really give you the financial with percussions you would have dreamed of.

39:02But luckily for someone like me, I don't make music for cash. I make music because I need to. It's a cathartic thing, experience. I need to release these pains. I need to release these stories so I don't fucking explode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. That's how I am. A very empathetic fella. Got a lot of feelings going on in me. And I don't mind talking about them, releasing them and letting lads know that we are allowed to feel like this. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't affect me because I know who I am and I know that if someone really gives it to me, I don't mind having a rare either. Yeah, yeah.

39:34So I can do that, do you know what I mean? I can, you know, really, and let people and show people that side. And I think that's very important to men because we need to be able to be vulnerable because they tell us that we can't our whole life. They say we've got to be solid, solid, solid, solid, which is, well, there's nothing wrong with, you know, dropping a tear or showing people how you really, really feel. so that's why I make music in the first place anyway because I need to and then I realized that it was a service for people people need this I've had so many people that told me I can't believe it they're telling me that my tunes have saved their life and this that and they were suicidal but they listened to the songs that I've sung and it stopped them and you know people have had grown fucking giants crying in my arms do you know what I mean yeah for real just because the tunes that I've sung do you know what I mean so that's why I make music anyway and I feel like eventually it will pay off financially and that will just be the icing on the cake but I need to do it regardless anyway.

40:39Do you feel like your environment has had to give you that kind of thick skin because growing up in East London and if I think of like where you're from Isle of Dogs that almost looks unrecognisable even from 30 years ago when I went there with my school to do like a, to do like a thing and how the area's changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We went back there and I'm going up to people like, all right, can you sign my form or what do you think? But even how like that's changed, especially the Isle of Dogs because I feel like there's a misconception of that area of just like, it's almost kind of called Canary Wolf now in some ways.

41:20Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's until you go around the back roads and you're like, oh, this is Isle of Dogs. Do you know what I mean? Because there's estates there and everything. But the misconception is that it's the towers. Do you know what I mean? Canary Wharf and bankers, big money and stuff. Isle of Dogs is rough. Listen, man. Once I discovered these back roads, I said, uh-uh, wrong way. It's been real out here, you know? Because I only say that because I moved to East London And when I first moved out, do you know what I mean? Got a property not too far from around there that I was renting.

41:59So when I'd like drive around, I'd be like, oh right, this is like the hood a little bit, you know? But I didn't know that you take a bit more of a further, I didn't know that because I only knew from the part of Canary Wolf who I'm seeing, do you know what I mean? Canary Wolf and I don't know what, you've got HSBC there and all them other kinds of buildings. Also, why is that Canary Wolf underground? It is so confusing, bruv. It's amazing. Bruv, when you clock it, it's like, I know where to go. You know, I'll be coming out like, hold on. Where am I? Let me go back downstairs, man. Where's, where's, where's boots?

42:33I got my boots. It's amazing. It's amazing. So how was, how did that kind of environment give you more of a fixed skin? Because, you know, you talk about like gentrification in East London. Yeah. And nowhere has been gentrified anywhere. More than that. More than, yeah, man. I think they're talking about getting rid of Billingsgate now. Yeah, yeah, they are. It's gone in four years or something like that. Yeah. Madness, I can't believe that. But, you know, Aller Dogs, it's a docker's town. That's what it was, you know. It was people, it used to, a lot of trading, but due to that, it was very multicultural, you know what I mean?

43:07People from all I used to come in there, but then at the same time, it was quite racist. It was like a BNP stronghold at one point. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred, a hundred. It's mad though, because when you think of it now, you would never have think that. You would never think that. But they, my mum always used to say that to me, like, be careful, be careful. But I don't really feel that because all those kind of things, all those kind of ilks got ironed out straightly. If it was like with straighteners, people that have fights. Once you have a fight with someone, once you punch someone in the face and then you start walking down the road and go Chinese shot with them after, it's done, do you know what I mean?

43:39And that's what, a lot of that happens, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You know, and we were very territorial because we had the tunnel where the boys would come over and we'd fight the life out of them if they came over to them. We would call them Lucian boys. They'd say, Lucian boys are there. And we'd run to the tunnel and we'd fight them. That's that tunnel right underneath the river, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then up the road, we'd have, I'm not even getting against it because it was very political, but we used to fight some other boys up the road as well. But it was our little town.

44:14You had to cross the bridge or go and do a tunnel to come here. so like it's an island and an island mentality is it's ours you know what I mean so we was extremely territorial and extremely East London and we would fight like we owned it that's what we was known for real football factory you know the first ever ever recorded effort of hooliganism in 1902 was recorded on the Isle of Dogs really yeah because Millwall is from originally from the Isle of Dogs oh yes so that is what we used to embody and that was who we are we was yeah yeah 100 % alright so you you technically a Millwall fan slightly slightly they took us to Millwall sorry they took us to Millwall on a school trip on a school trip yeah what to go and watch football yeah oh sweet it was a primary school yeah they used to do a lot of stuff like that because I remember my we used to get free tickets to go and watch Millwall through the council yeah The council gave us free tickets and me and my mum went.

45:18And it was raucous, boy. I didn't like it, though. I can't lie. They won a game. Yeah, it was lively, man. So no racism that day. No, no, no. I was like, this is kind of lively, you know? Because at the time, I supported Arsenal. But my mum, again, my mum being a single mum, she was just like, well, I've got to do some stuff with my boy, innit? Because I loved football. But yeah, going to the game, me and my mum were there, boy. No one likes us. We don't care. We are Millwall. Super Millwall. from the den and it's like he's looking around like yeah we need to chill out yeah but you you have a documentary about your your journey yeah yeah and your your documentary is about how you're you know becoming so your documentary is from about you being a grime MC and kind of transitioning into folk if you want to call it that yeah or you call it kind of G-folk yeah yeah Yeah.

46:16What made you kind of showcase that to the world in some ways? It's kind of an accident, really. We just always recorded. Again, shout out Ali. We used to make sure we was recording and I just kind of took that on to continue recording. And then when I was putting up my first album, I thought, you know, I got all this footage. And there was talk between the team to do like a kind of documentary. I was like, well, you know, I've been recording from the get-go anyway. so you're just like documenting your stuff yeah I got my mate Billy Bones he was recording for me from the get go and then I had my mate James Topley we got Topley this follows me by Yoko Crook and I went even got no dough if we got little money we pay him but he just does it for the love and yeah we managed to put this thing together and it was very well it was very well received but it's just an honest honest honest depictation of a geezer trying to change you know we spoke about change earlier and that's all it is really, you know, fighting himself like most lads do and it's just a really, really honest piece of film and yeah, it was, it just was what it was.

47:27I'm very, very proud of it, you know. Why do you call it G-folk? Because, fork, a fork, a geezer fork, you know, governor fork, you know, it's a G atop, you know, it's something, it's like that's fork, a G fork. I knew that was what you was going to say? Yeah, yeah. But I said, I was going to ask you. Because sometimes musicians are like, oh, no, the G symbolizes. No, fuck that. I'm like, can you fork that, man? No.

47:56It's a bit. Yeah. So what? Can you still spit bars now? Yeah, man. Like if someone put on a 140 BPM. Slewage. Swear. Yeah, man. I ain't run it now.

48:09Yeah, man. Yeah. But no, what I found really, like interested though is that you you go back into prisons and you do like workshops and stuff as well man yeah what made you get back into this man car prison was that changed man lost my best friend Tom bless him I was looking at photos of him early this morning

48:39prison was that where I just thought like I fucking had enough of this, nah. Loads of us was in jail at that time, you know, and I picked up the guitar and all that, and I feel like prison's full of geniuses. Prison's full of people that don't take no for an answer, and they want to fool you out their own way. But Carl Babylon, we're in this Babylon system, they say, no, you need to pay tax, you can't do this, or you have to go to jail, and this and that. But prison's just full of people that want to make their own route, you know, but sometimes they just, you know, go straight to the things that are quite, that are unfortunate, that are illegitimate.

49:15But when you've got a frame of mind where you say, no, I don't want to follow that person or do my own thing, that means you have a talent. Yeah, yeah. Not to follow people, do you know what I mean? It's just been put in the wrong place. Energy has been placed in the wrong place. So I feel like it's very important to go in and talk to those young men and say, yeah, you're definitely on the right track. You've just took a pitfall. Yeah, yeah. And you can change and you can make it in your own way. So I like being something that they can see, sound, look like them and you can change your life and do something different.

49:50So I think it's extremely important to do that. And how do you start to look at like what you want to start doing in the future? Because it feels like music is one part of just what you do. I feel like there's so many different parts to Hackmaker, which is like you're an entrepreneur. Do you know what I mean? You're a very smart man. You've got music that you clearly love doing, but there's a lot of outreach there and there's a lot of, you're very self-aware of what you know that people like, but also what people want and how you can assist them emotionally. Do you know what I mean? So how do you start kind of piecing this all together, you know, of what you want to leave behind probably in like the next 20, 30 years in some ways?

50:43You just be a passenger of life, you know, and let it take you. But you just start to implement the normal rules like planning and things like that. You never forget where you come from. You know, all I want to do is be a good representative of where I'm from. and who I am as a young black man of Caribbean descent. And I want to step with my best foot forwards. I don't want to step with my back foot. I want people to see when they see Akeem. You know, Akeem did well. Akeem represented his people. Akeem never left his ends and chains. Akeem always supported young people. And so that's what I think.

51:29Akeem retired his mother. That's my goals. I think one of my main reasons why I even started singing was I don't want my mum to work anymore because that's probably the reason why me and my mum's relationship broke down because she was working so hard and she wasn't at home and I started to look for love elsewhere you know so all I want to do is go back and help people and my key thing is to be of service that's what I think I was saying this to my friend yesterday people love to be served whereas I think proper people like to be of service to make other people feel good because you have that energy and tenacity to do that you know what i mean that gives me the biggest i feel like a figure of eight of energy i get that service and they give me the applaud it re-energizes me to continue the mission which is to help people and try and make people feel better like you do it use your service through comedy yeah 100 man yeah literally that that was my thought process the other day i was going to a gig I was like 5-10 % boy and the minute I'd done that gig and I started making people laugh oh but it was I know there was these two girls sitting in the front they laughed at every single joke and their laughs were so loud that I was like normally I'd be like right you know I really laugh in that but I was like I don't think these two realise how much I need this you know like everyone was laughing but these two at the front different energy man And I guess you must have the same, like, you know, when you must go to a prison and you are teaching someone to play guitar where you're sitting and you're like, oh, this is, I knew what it was like when I played this for the first time.

53:11And seeing someone, you know, put together some strings, do you know what I mean? Or you're like, yeah, yeah. MCing over the guitar and MCing over the guitar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Ah, bro, this has been. Yeah, it's been good. This has been one of my favorite pods, bro. I promise you, I'm not just saying that, just to say it. and I'm really, really excited to see what else you have in store for us. I know you have an album coming out soon as well. So yeah, man, I guess. Oh yeah, obviously everyone can go and, you know what I mean, catch that when it comes out and stuff. But yeah, man, I'm really excited to see your trajectory within the next couple of years.

53:47Do you know what I mean? Just see how it continues and evolves and just where you take Bon Bleu as well. Yeah, man. Why? Might get a little track to you, you know? No, we're going to send that to you. baby blue for the summer you know it's like what air force is you're gonna say that no no rebut classics now you get it right with the gum soul yeah yeah rebut workouts yeah we've got the streets but no man it's been a pleasure um hack and this has been your beginning middle and end thank you very much my friend appreciate that man hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today.

54:22Now a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review. It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace. So I'm 36, and suddenly, everything that used to feel easy just didn't. It honestly hit me around 34. Same workouts, same diet, but I felt like I was moving through mud.

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