How Maverick Sabre Survived the Music Industry

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and right now you're listening to my podcast, Beginning, Middle and End. Thank you so much for joining me, because what a guest I have for you. That's right. This week's guest went from sofa surfing in London to having a debut album topping the UK charts. That's right. We talk about the industry angels and the industry sharks and mentoring none other than Georgia Smith. He talks about what it's like going independent on his terms and the importance of giving a message in music. Please welcome to the podcast, Maverick Sabre. Thank you so much for doing the pod, bro.

0:39Oh, man, thank you for having me on. Yeah, man, appreciate that, man. Looking very dapper, brother. Thank you very much. Where's this from? This is a Percival. Oh, Percival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to pull out something.

0:51Mo Gilligan: They're looking after everyone at the moment, I can't lie. I can't laugh, bro. You know, when companies start looking out to people and you start seeing that and everything, I'm like, oh, what do you want to have that? Hey, I've got a long time for Percival, you know. If you're listening, guys, I have some more stuff. I'm here for it. It wears well. It wears well. Yeah, man. This is straight back from Australia as well. I don't know why I packed this for Australia, but I was like, just in case it gets a bit chilly. So when you was in Australia, that would have been, what, their summertime? Yeah, just coming at the end of the summertime.

1:17Mo Gilligan: So I just started, when we were in Melbourne, and it just started to get a bit chilly and just started to rain a bit. Still warm. So are you on tour at the moment? That's why he's in Australia. Yeah, well, we were. Just kind of came off. We got a couple of, like, two months break now before the summer festival started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we're just back on again. Isn't that how you kind of, I wouldn't say, like, got started, but you supported Plan B in Dublin, right? As a teenager. Yeah, I was gigging from 15, something like that. Yeah. I was gigging in school, yeah. Because I used to make, I started off making hip-hop beats.

1:47I'm a big old-school hip-hop fan. kind of, yeah, when I was like 13, 14, I got into 9th Wonder and Primo and Easy Mo B and stuff like that and started making beats and then that got me into spitting a bit. My dad's a musician, so I was always singing and writing songs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just started gigging really young. I was just like, there was a little bubbling Irish hip hop scene at the time. Small, but there was loads of gigs. And it was a small community as well, so it was like everyone was putting everyone on all the time. yeah so I was gigging weekends when I was when I was in school and then one of them weekends I was I met plan B in a in a in a club call I think was the village in in Dublin and it was just like cliche old story went did the support slot it was a couple of us and we were kind of spitting outside of his room and we were singing and trying to get his attention he eventually came outside listening and it's like Ben he was really serious and he was like yeah yeah and he like put me to the side he was like oh I've got a vocal competition on Myspace at the time.

2:47He's like, six, seven, nine have set it up. He's like, you should enter it. It closes in a couple of weeks. I was like, yeah, alright. And entered it, won it, and I won a day in the studio with him. And my mum's side of the family, I was born in Hackney, my mum's side of the family were from Hackney, my nan, God rest her soul, but she was still alive at the time

3:06Mo Gilligan: and I used to go over and see her in the summers. And I said, oh, I've got a studio session in Leighton Stone, so I went and stayed with her for a couple of days. went in and did the uh studio session with him and he was like at the end of it it was just really straight down the line he was like what are you doing and because i started playing guitar at the end of the session and singing he was like no that's the stuff like that's what i really love doing and he was like what are you doing now i just finished school i finished school early i was 16 and i was like i don't don't really know what i'm gonna do i was gonna go back and walk and save up a bit of money and just kind of figure it out and he was like forget all of that it moved to london and he said look if you move to London I'll give you some studio time you can stay at my mum's I'll try and help you as much as I can and I was like this is someone I massively looked up to so I kind of went home walked for a bit saved up some money and then packed my bag and moved to London 17 and then that's when I went on the road with him and was using his studio in Kenzo Green and then it kind of kick started everything I came back and yeah on and off then for two years I was back and forth here living two or three years that sounds like an intro of like a beginning of a film bro yeah it was beautiful it was beautiful you know oh that's dope man and it was a lovely interaction you know you know how these industries can be yeah yeah it's easy to it's easy to start off with really negative interactions but you know Ben and I couldn't imagine what it would have been like you're 17 as well so what year are we talking so 2000 because you said MySpace as well yeah yeah so it would have been I was 16 going 17 so I finished school 16 that was the summer so I'd just turned 17 so it'd been like August 2007 oh okay I'm 1990 so yeah it'd been August 2007 yeah July baby so I would have just gone 17 what would you think the biggest difference was of you going from Dublin to then moving back to London but like you're you're kind of like sofa surfing sofa surfing in some ways and doing open mics and that what was that the biggest difference because I've done a show once in Dublin.

5:10Mo Gilligan: Dublin is an absolute vibe. I'm actually from a place called Wexford, but it's about an hour and a half. That's where the show was when you went into Dublin. I spent a lot of time in Dublin. And Dublin was where most of the gigs were at that time specifically. But I was brought up in a town called New Ross in County Wexford, which is like an hour and a half. Oh, okay. It's quite raw. You know what I say, yeah? Because when I went to Dublin, the vibes, it's such a vibey place, you know? I love Dublin. Hey, Dublin is a vibey place, man. I had my first gig there and it was so fun the people were so friendly there's a great spirit in the people yeah but like good vibe and then I think they told me to split the G I never done this before bro I've never been under so much pressure was that before or after the gig before the show I said you know me being me I'm like I'm here in Dublin man I always like to really make an effort to be like I'm here I know I'm not from here but I want to know about experience a place if I'm on a show and I'm like okay cool and I'll ask the audience I'll ask where's everyone from I've heard to go to this place for the best thing and people say to me nah you know in Philly for example where can I get the best Philly cheesesteak shall I go there you know nah man you want to go there man you want to go to Westside I want to hear a song from people on the ground yeah yeah yeah so I'm asking I said nah I'm in you know I'm in Ireland and I'll be honest I don't really drink Guinness like that do you know what I mean and I said alright and then someone said split the fucking G man I said split the what what's this man and he goes you gotta split the G man and I was like what do you mean I'm not even walking on that Irish accent hey did you see no it's good it's not bad now it's not bad because my surname's Irish as well isn't it okay yeah yeah so I do I feel like I do quite well in Ireland when I do shows because they're like well you know it's fucking surname You know, you're going back for the fucking time.

7:05Your passport is in the post. Don't worry about that. Yeah, yeah.

7:09Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. But how was it for you? Because I feel like, going back to what I was saying, Ireland is just a vibey place anyway. Do you know what I mean? But London, if you know the right people, you can have a fun time here. If you don't, it can be very miserable. Do you know what I mean? But you said you're born and bred in Hackney. Were you a mum from Hackney? Yeah, I was born in Hackney. But from the age of four, we were in Wexford. my dad's from a town called New Ross and that's where we were raised. And then I moved back at 17, but we were back a lot of summers and all my mum's side of the family, all Londoners.

7:42So I had like, London wasn't a completely fresh place for me to come to. It was always, I was always closely connected with London, but it's definitely not being, you know, not being raised in London and coming back. You know, I was 17, but I guess it can work for people of any age. It can be a cold city if you don't know people.

8:00Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. But then I was lucky enough that through Plan B, through Ben, that a lot of his friends became my friends. I spent a lot of time in Forest Gate and Wanstead. Yeah, I was just blessed in a way that a lot of his friends ended up becoming quite close. And I kind of had a unit of people that I was hanging around with, early doors. So I wasn't completely by myself and fresh, you know what I mean? And so 17, that's when you kind of moved to London, right? Yeah. So you're in London. then at 20 you get signed you sorry you signed with Universal which is your debut album which went number two did you feel like that made you an overnight success in a way that I know you had been grinding but in terms of like being such a young age getting signed album comes out number two and now your name bow is in lights in some ways do you know what I mean yeah do you know what I guess for me, it didn't feel like that because that was at the end.

9:03The success of the first album was a year, year and a half after our song. So it was like 21 was when I really felt the success of that first record. So at that point, it's six years into me making music, putting it out, gigging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was probably moments before that felt like they kind of built into that.

9:23Mo Gilligan: You know what I mean? there was a tune I had with Pro Green Jungle that had been out there was a Chasing Status tune that had come out on their second album there was a song of mine sometimes that had done really well and kind of charted by itself independently before that done really well on Channel U back in the day there was a couple moments that was kind of helping me get gigs and I was also doing the open mic socket as much as I could and then when I signed then things kind of started to build up so I guess like maybe to certain people who hadn't followed the journey it would have been like out of nowhere the first single came and then we kind of went into the album the album did really well yeah third single did well and then we were on the road for like two years after it but for me it was more like a kind of long-term progression and stuff yeah did it feel like a shift in that time of like oh like you know I've done that open mic circuit because I feel like at that time the open mic circuit was you know shows like i love live and stuff you had you know ed sherry might pop in you know jesse j would pop in um it was thriving at the time like i don't know if you remember turn turn off the radio as well in in in ball um and i had like twigs adele early doors um and i love lives especially some of my fondest memories with some of them gigs.

10:46Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember like certain moments there was one in, what was the spot at the back of, was it Queen, the back of Shortage on the corner. Oh. Not the Queen, was it the Queen of Hugs? I know the one you're talking about though. I can't remember the name. I know the location. There was a bar upstairs and the club was downstairs. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember a couple of gigs at that feeling like a changing point for me. Like, oh, there's peers of mine that I really respect and I've grown up listening to that I know in the crowd and cheering for certain songs. I was like, oh, I could feel a slight progression with certain things like that.

11:18Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the open mic scene at the time, I don't know what it's like now, but the open mic scene at the time felt like thriving.

11:25Mo Gilligan: Yeah, 100%. I know it from a standpoint of just doing stand-up comedy where, especially on the black circuit, you know, you had like Kojo's Corks Wine Bar Show and then you had Sunday Show. So you had, that was just even for myself as a comic, but also knowing that there was a music scene with an open mic, you know, an open mic night. and I know I love live a little bit more because when I got to host it once which felt like oh bro I'm hosting it do you remember what venue it was it was in Camden oh proud proud yeah proud of Camden yeah yeah and I remember hosting it and I was like at the time I was like if I do well hosting this and I'm funny might be on one extra might be on one extra next week you know like that call that call never came back well I'm funny enough on that note that.

12:14That called Never Game. Because who used to host it? Was it Ras Kwame who used to host it? Ras Kwame, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:20Mo Gilligan: But what I remember going with my friends and, you know, some of my friends would do music and, you know, if you get early, you get to sign up, you get to perform and it'd be like, all right, guys, we've got someone who's going to come up and perform and they're going to do a track and, you know, one of our friends who'd done music and, you know, you go with your friends to support music and you're like, yeah, man you know you have that kind of like you know that eight mile mentality yeah man i'll go man like this this will be because that's what i felt like 100 percent it really one tune goes down right yeah yeah you're watching you don't know who's in the audience and like especially because a &r used to go to those shows as well do you know i mean they're looking for the next you know the next thing and stuff because i think the a &r who signed me semtex i think he came to one of the ones in pro camden at the back there's an i love live i think that was one of the first ones he saw me.

13:05Mo Gilligan: Semtex signed you? Yeah, he was one of the Semtex in an A &R called Jamie Nelson, but Semtex was the one who like, who kind of came and approached me first. Yeah, and I think that was off the back of one of the I Love Live ones. Yeah.

13:20Mo Gilligan: I remember first listening to your album, is it Lonely Are the Brave? Bro? It's a bad boy album thank you bad boy i'm talking i had that album itunes days yeah yeah yeah and i remember one of the tracks that really stood out for me was i think it was let me go oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that was the first single we put yeah that tune because that you know what it is yeah you You've got this voice, yeah, where it's like, it's like soul and pain, yeah? But it's almost like, you know, I don't know if you've ever had this where you listen to someone, you say, if I close my eyes, is this guy black? You know that there's certain songs you ever listen to.

14:11Mo Gilligan: There's some like old disco songs I listen to and I go, oh, who's this? I don't know who this is. But I felt like your sound was like, it's interesting you say now where like you had this massive influence through you know hip-hop and stuff because like the soul that you had in your voice was like oh i don't think that i ever heard as anyone sing like that do you know i mean it had like this soul in it but also like it was like oh right like these are on tracks that i really understand enough and i'm familiar with do you know i mean which is a great position to be in because i feel like i don't know if you if anyone's ever said this but it's like you know like the girls like it, yeah?

14:54Mo Gilligan: But the mandem are like, yeah, let me play this in the chat. Yeah, it was a nice middle ground. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was honestly an amazing, amazing album. What was some of your feedback when that album came out and the reactions to that? Because I feel like it was such a unique sound. Yeah, I think... Do you know what? Interestingly, kind of going back to what you were saying about changing points, when Let Me Go came out, I felt like, and I don't know if it was necessarily also to do with the video, it was like the first flashy video we did, we went to Vegas, it starts off on the strip and it zooms out, I'm in a car and it's like, you're in the old Vegas strip, it was like Casino and all was shot on it.

15:35And I remember people back home with me like, you've made it now, man. And I think like the nature of that tune with like the horns and the kind of punchiness of it, it felt like a big intro into a record. but definitely at the time there was a split like you know I remember I remember doing Jules Holland for the first time and like the comments were split because my tone of voice for some people at the time

16:02Mo Gilligan: was like what the fuck is this it sounds like he's singing through his nose it sounds like he's fucking getting strangled so it was a bit of a split but then I think what happened within that for me was like my core audience who felt what I was doing yeah yeah yeah really supported you know what I mean you know because I went through my own stuff at the time with the label of like you know what I should dress like and look like and you know elements of it trying to morph me into something that maybe I wasn't and I was always very anti that I was like you saw me as a kid singing kind of like rebel soul hip hop tunes on a guitar skin head in a tracksuit I'm not going to suddenly now start wearing like hats and trying to be look like an indie band that's not that wasn't yeah yeah yeah of course does that happen a lot with labels and stuff because you hear it from the artists but like is that something that happens a lot in the sense where they've signed you and they've you know they're like cool we're signing you but we're signing you for this for this particular markets where they want to put you in a hat and a leather jacket and do you know what I mean the pointy leather shoes and stuff with the skinny jeans yeah I guess like you know I guess that that happens in different extremes for different different types of artists for their own journey Yeah, it does.

17:18I guess some part of that people would say, oh, it's the marketing element of pushing an artist out, and other people would say it's missing the point with artists. It's like buying a car, but then stripping it the minute you get home and changing the doors and changing the wheels. It's like, why did you buy the car in the first place for? That's what it was. And sometimes you can miss your audience by that. So for me, I was a bit bullheaded about it when I was younger. I was like, I know the audience that I want to reach, and I know what I want people to feel like. I don't want that really to be masked or idolised in anything.

17:50That's like, I need to be a star or something. That never really sat well with me.

17:55Mo Gilligan: So what's those first two years when you're on the road with Plan B like? Because, you know, when you're supporting an artist like that, did it feel like a bit of a whirlwind of like, oh my God, we're here and we're there? Because, you know, some of my friends who, you know, are musicians and I used to see it from the outside before I started touring and they're going to I remember a friend of mine you know a big up my friend Mark Crown he plays trumpet oh I know Mark you know Mark Crown I've known Mark for years oh I swear I went to school with him bro Mark put he recorded some bits for my second album is he on some of the songs I've seen I think it was like two or three of the songs oh big up Mark man yeah that's my guy man we went to school together okay because I've known Mark since like the Rudy days oh yeah yeah that's yeah yeah I think that's where I first met him yeah okay like the rudimental oh that's insane yeah so I went to school with him right so you know he's always played trumpet from school and you know when things started like going well for him and he's you know touring with rudimental and stuff you know I'd see it from the outside and be like right you're in Japan bro what's Japan like you're in Thailand what's that like and he'd be like I remember one time he was like bro we get on a plane we land we do the show we sleep we go to somewhere else I don't see none of these places and I was like come on surely there must be a spare two hours in the day to see to see peru it's like i've just touched on the beach

19:24Mo Gilligan: you don't see none of me but like he's like he i remember him telling me like he said like but bro is this not a thing because you sleep eat you're on the tour bus or whatever it is you can't sleep wherever you can yeah and what what were those first two years the first two years were chaotic being honest with you they were brilliant and they were beautiful and I've got like some of my fondest touring memories but it was like my first for a lot of things it was my first time being on a tour bus yeah yeah it was my first time you know travelling around Europe and the UK and Ireland and doing shows and you know playing to rooms that were maybe bigger than a couple of hundred caps and then that first Plan B tour his album had just gone number one Strickland Banks yeah and so it was like this extra buzz that was happening Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:11And then, yeah, I was young, chaotic. I only had half an hour set every night, so I didn't, I wasn't warming up or warming down. I considered my voice. I was like kind of in iron mode, like fucking what, I've been made it now. You know what I mean? And we were like, that tour especially was, I'd been in London a couple of years at that point, so everyone on the touring party was family, you know what I mean, at that point. So it was all of us having a lot of first time experiences. And it was fun. It was chaotic though. and like you don't see places you know you don't most venues look exactly the same when you put up yeah yeah yeah it's that cycle of hungover i'm just about able to do sound check you get through sound check you're like right i've got an hour before i'm on you do the set you come off you start drinking there's a club there's free drink there's stuff i hadn't had before yeah yeah yeah

21:00Mo Gilligan: because that's the thing i'm asking because like at that age it must feel just like oh my god this is what must this is what life must feel like for a musician in some ways do you know what I mean oh definitely all the all the cliches of what you expect in rock and roll you feel that you know what I mean and I guess the younger you are the more naive you are to it and it's just like also the first time you're experiencing a lot of it so you know it's yeah there was a lot I would say the first couple of years torn felt like that probably up until I was about maybe like 25 26 the things start to like Did you get more disciplined once you was doing your own tours?

21:40Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's just because, you know, it's one thing being able to get through a half an hour set or coming on and doing five songs at an open mic or it's a whole other thing when you've got to do an hour and 20. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I'll write songs but like a falsetto chorus where I'm singing at the top of my range. In the studio, that's grandma, it's a controlled environment. Yeah. When you've been on the road for two weeks and you're drinking and smoking and God knows what else. to try and sing in my nose you know what I mean you know so it's like you forget you know it's like oh right actually you know it's a muscle you know I can't just absolutely cane it and then as you get older it's just the natural wear down yeah yeah I mean you get into your 30s then you try to do that shit

22:22Mo Gilligan: listen man when you finish your gig hangover have you ever finished a show like not early but you're like oh like started on time finished on time and the way I just like sleep, oh, I'm going to have the juiciest sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where like on that last little bit of the set, you're like, I might turn into a granddad, but I'm kind of looking forward to going back to the hotel. Listen, when we're on the road, it's funny because my tour manager likes to, he really likes to walk around. He does the, I'm going to go around and he finds a gym and he'll get his tripod, he'll stick it on a lamppost and take a picture like he's, someone's took it to the point where I said bro who's taking these pictures oh he's he's ready to rock them but he wakes up at 6 so he's just stuck on that lapboard yeah go on you know what we've been on tour so he's photographing himself as he's going on to the point where we was on tour for almost I don't know we was in America for like three months at one point and I was like who takes these pictures at 6am is everyone thinking you're taking the photos because in my head I was like I'm not taking them and I said who takes these pictures he's like I've got this magnet that sticks on to lampposts.

23:34Mo Gilligan: So he can watch it on, like if we're flying or whatever, but he sticks on the lamppost, but like he would take, it's like he's walking and he'll have a tram or something in the background in like Vancouver. And I'm like, who's taking it? I said, he said, yeah, I'll stick it there. Oh, he's doing an artistic one as well. Okay, he's getting abstract and everything. So if he's doing any talk about it at all. He will try and get on to me. He's like, oh bro, you don't get out all day in the hotel. I said, bro, I sleep. Yeah. And until the show night, then I'll come out but until then I'm sleeping and recovering I ain't got time to take pictures and like I might hit the gym in the hotel but and maybe get a little food but other than that when you're touring and especially when you get to an age where you're like the sleep I can have and watch some films and stuff yeah and in that in that little hour or two break I don't want to see anyone yeah no disrespect to no one but I just might want to go for a walk by myself and not talk I've got a majority of it.

24:30Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I do venture out, it's that real. Yeah, yeah.

24:33Mo Gilligan: Because I think people don't realise how much, like, you're so used to being on of, like, when you perform, especially touring, when you're like, I'm on, I've got to, you know, you, I don't, especially for musicians, you guys have to sound check, you know, then you've got, and it's hard for me now because, like, when I've got a support act, I will watch them in the first couple of shows. But after that, I'm like, bro, I can hear it in the thing, but I've got to do, yeah I've got to do my reset I need to reset to pump me up before shows and stuff because I think it must be harder I think it must be harder for a comedian because like what's your average set time hour and a half or something like that about hour this tour's about hour and ten yeah but that ten minutes is crowd work so I'm just messing around anyway we've at least got rest points do you know what I mean like there's a guitar solo that might go on for 20 seconds there might be like a breather song the band might play for an excellent bit I do like it when you guys do that though.

25:29That's so fun, man. What, when the band's here? Yeah, when the band play. Take it off, John. Yeah, yeah.

25:33Mo Gilligan: Some of you like walk off. Walk off in there. Just tap me head a bit. Get the sweat off. But yeah, as a comedian or you're out there and when you stop talking, there's silence. I've always found that fascinating and appreciated the outform because I'm like, wow, you've got to fill all the gaps. Sometimes I guess in comedy, silence and the breaks and the physicality of it is the funniness as well. But you know what? I think as I've got older, it's enjoying the silence a little bit now because all I need when I get out there is a laugh. Sometimes it might be higher than other nights. You're like, oh, they really gave it to me.

26:12Mo Gilligan: Oh, they're not really there today. They might have to work a bit harder. But not so much the silence when the joke don't work. It's when I'm explaining a story and it's so silent. And I'm like, it's the one moment whenever I do what I do and I go, oh, I've got everyone's attention right now. Sometimes you might get someone talking, but you're like, right now, I've got everyone's attention. And I'm in the master of, if I say this line, it will really work. If I say the wrong line, sometimes once, I don't know if you've had this, where all I have to say is a line. The line might be like, and then he took my burger.

26:47Mo Gilligan: That might be the punchline. But I've done it a few times where I've started. and I'm like and then he took my the way this laugh does not land because it is that it's that thing of like soul destroying bro it's that thing of like you've got the audience's attention but an audience will pick up on the slightest yeah yeah yeah crack in the smoothness of a delivery and that's I guess the same for a singer if you've got an audience like if you've got a broken down moment yeah you know that that little bit of tremolo in your voice it's that little quiver at the end. If you do it right, you know, you've grabbed them even more.

27:24But if you do a, or you do a, or it doesn't hit right, and you can feel the break. You know what I mean?

27:32Mo Gilligan: You can feel the break and it's being a bit like, oh, okay, that was, all right. Can I ask you this? As a musician, right? Yeah. Now, I go to a lot of live shows, yeah? When you play new stuff, is that like a, I need to get my new music out there because we've been working on this? because or is it like a I'm just gonna just float this thing because I guess for like for yourself where you've got an audience who's like I really wanna hear this song I really wanna hear that song but also there is a point of you like guys I'm gonna I got a new song gonna try this one out how what goes through your mind when you guys say I'm gonna do the new song is it like to test it out to try it to give them something they never heard before or what is going on there I'm so intrigued man yeah do you know what Being honest, I don't think I do that enough.

28:23And I had a conversation with a friend of mine. This was a little while ago. He's a DJ and he was talking about new DJs and maybe that a lot of the new DJs maybe have lost an element of the art form of being teachers. And the audience in that room, they want to hear the bangers, but they also want to hear something that you as the tastemaker can give to them. And I think for us it's more about road testing tunes I think some musicians still do it a lot but I think maybe the new age has lost it a bit of road testing tunes I definitely feel like I can be better at it

29:00Mo Gilligan: yeah when we've done it in the past it's definitely about like you know sometimes you see especially in the world of streaming and stuff like that the audience and performance is the only really A to B point that you get that shit feels real yeah you can kind of get lost without that a bit yeah yeah of course and you can get lost about like what moments of songs really connect there might be a lyric that you think you know um that's cool but then you do it on tour and you're like oh actually i didn't realize that that's the most sentimental part of the whole song for an audience um so yeah i think it's finding out what connects or not yeah you know um but yeah i definitely need to do that more i'd say do you do that well i guess for me it's like they always want to hear something new so if I even say a line it has to be yeah that might sound like oh I think I've said this in another special or somewhere else like even when it gets a laugh I'm a bit like oh you guys know that I've done that joke before like especially if I know it's been on in a special for example then I'm like but then also where I do my little you know little Rastafari nursery rhymes I get people like do the rhyme and I'm like no I've worked on this craft for a year about wow, you want a Rastafred?

30:13Go watch that. Yeah, you're not getting an old one. Yeah, but then a part of me is like,

30:17Mo Gilligan: I do want to feed what you want, but my thing, I just need a laugh from this. So I don't mind giving it to you, but if you're not going to laugh and just, then I'm going to feel like a fucking idiot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then I'd have just taken it in for sentimental reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes the laughter, it must be, is off hearing something fresh. So that's the thing. It's like, because it's fresh and I do it where you're not expecting, and you're like, oh, this is an, oh, okay, listen, whereas if, I've had it a few times, it's like, go and do that bit, and you're like, nah bro, I ain't doing that, nah man, I've worked on this new bit, for about 10 months, so you're going to listen to this new bit.

30:55So you roll test them bits of them? Like, do you do it to smaller audiences? yeah, yeah,

30:58Mo Gilligan: yeah, you have to do your, for me anyway, I have to do my work in progress shows, before I jump any tour show, and it's a bit of sweet feeling, because, going on the road is great, but like the work in progress and seeing what works and what doesn't and knowing you're like that bit really works and sometimes an audience member will say I keep that bit in and you're like yeah but you're like it just doesn't go with the narrative of what I'm trying to do with this story and this special and it's hard but also like knowing I change bits for different regions so in America some bits I will take out and add new bits but then when I go back home here you're like well that bit talk about TSA ain't gonna work because back home who's TSI I don't know that is you mean the home office yeah yeah but it's kind of it just doesn't work you know I mean speaking about plan B being your mentor did you kind of like mentor like because you work with Georgia Smith when she was quite young as well did you kind of mentor her in some kind of ways yeah I guess in a sense I think you know when I when I came out of Universal I came off Universal in 2016 and within a couple weeks it was a big changing point for me you know I kind of felt like time and inspiration and connection but a lot of things in my life had run run out of it and I wasn't in the best place I remember I came back from a tour in Australia I got kicked out me flat for noise complaints I was staying with my sister I just I've gone into universe and been like I don't think this is working for either of us you know let's go our separate ways it was all love mm-hmm I've been on a management company at the time that personally I didn't think was working for me and I was kind of I remember being on my sister's couch one day and being like fucking hell it's like everything's gone and I was like alright you know where do I go now and there was a friend of mine who who'd always been in my life.

32:57He was a lawyer. I'd met him at 17. He was a hip-hop promoter. Was my lawyer for my first two deals. Always someone I trusted heavily. And he was like, he played me this girl's music one night, fucking early in the morning, at a house party at four o 'clock in the morning. Like, you've got to listen to this girl's music. She's unbelievable. And it was George's music. It was like a couple of early demos. So yeah, these are amazing. And he wanted to build a team of people that had kind of been in the industry, weren't sharks, knew we'd come in with the right intentions. He was just like, I just want you to sit with her for a while and write some songs and kind of nurture it.

33:34And, you know, she was already an amazing songwriter.

33:37Mo Gilligan: So I was kind of in and around her life from 15, just wrote songs for years before she put blue lights out. And then we've been kind of working and collaborating ever since. And it's been my little sister. It was just a bit of a chance to be like, you know, I had the blessing of coming into an industry with a lot of love and people who really had some real angels that looked out for me and I just want to make sure I can do that and have done that if I can you know Could you speak about like sharks and stuff with the music industry and what not is that something almost to kind of be wary about as an artist where everyone can see your talent apart from you if that makes sense so like as an artist or any creative you're like oh no I'm talented but it's easy to get someone to say nah you are the next big thing and I guess it must be hard being like oh okay well I believe that and now I'm gonna set you up with this person and stuff do you know I mean is that something to be wary about in some ways yeah I think I think it's a thing in general in life of you know tuning into your intuition a lot more with people and you know especially coming from a musician's point of view figuring out who really truly is there for you for the right reasons because if they're there for longevity then they should be loyal they should be solid and they should be building in the long term yeah of course you know sometimes in early doors it's hard to see who is pure who you can trust a lot of us definitely me you know i'm i was naive coming in you know i finished school early straight into gigging i was hungry as fuck I get signed at 20 it's a whirlwind I've got chaotic mind it's racing all over the place and I'm doing shows and then life's gone mental you know you switch off to business a bit and you're like I'm the pure artist I need to create get the message to the people fucking this is what I'm here for and you you know for me you also you know you tune out a lot you know so it wasn't until years later that I started to like get my head around my own business and the background of everything and that was a process so in that process people come in and take advantage of it and I learnt lessons in a hard way with certain things but it was a blessing because I don't think I'd be in the position I am now if I hadn't gone that way but there is definitely a lot of sharks anywhere where I feel like there's pure creatives especially pure young creatives that are hungry and want to get on there's always going to be people with you know not the best intentions especially early doors where you can make a lot of money and fuck off and leave that out that artist might end up having to go home and live back in their hometown but you've made a quarter mil off them and then you've just fucked off you just have to be wary of whose intention's pure you also had a track on EAFC right yeah how did that come about because I feel like for any artist as much as you know you want to get your music out there but you know having your song the video game is like I guess it's one of those tick marks I guess the only way I can compare it is being a comic and having maybe your one like I don't know your comedy clip that goes viral so for me it's probably like one of my couple of cans clips every summer it's like couple of cans you're like I'm a badass every summer I put that video out oh thank you bro every summer that's almost like my version of like an EAFC it's like yeah it's a staple people do know me as it but it's like listen when it gets a bit sunny in spring I'm like and another one come on now yeah because I guess it's like there is a feeling of not knowing where sometimes your music is travelling and you know like I've gone to other countries and heard my my friend's song in like a shop and I'm like right bro like I'm in this shopping here in Bali and they're playing your music here do you know what I mean but I guess as a musician you wouldn't always know but at least there is some comfort in knowing that like yeah like all my boys play like FIFA and that and yeah and there's some as well there's these things that like you go through a lot of you know you're probably the same you go through a lot of experiences and sometimes people are like wow you've just done that and you've just done that that must be amazing you're like yeah yeah no it is but then there's other things that feel more you know like there's there's a there's like a more historical thing of sentimental attachment of course so it's like oh I I wanted my songs to be on FIFA for years.

38:11Why the fuck has no one messaged me on any song? And then I think it was the last FIFA game. I got two songs on there. I was like, what? All right. And so it's certain things like that, that like, yeah, some of them things mean more to you than loads of other successes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had my music in different like films and TV series. I also write for a lot of people and like seeing that musical journey of songs you've written, that kind of you've got absolutely no control over where and what happens with them and and to kind of see them kind of be placed into different has there ever been an artist who's hit you up and

38:47Mo Gilligan: like that you was like what like or that's hit you up and said bro like i really want to work with you in some capacity that you've just hit you up and like bro like you you know me what has that ever happened yeah it definitely has yeah it definitely has again like on a on a on a on like the music that I was kind of growing up with it was more leaning on the hip hop side of things that you know people I grew up listening to that I was amazed by you know I remember getting a message from Primo once about something that I'd done he was like yo I just heard this and this is hard and I was like my whole production you know inspiration was you and Nightwander when I was like 14 I would have been banging my head against a wall if I would have known that you know 15 or 20 years later this would have been happening but then it's also like I was a big UK hip hop fan so Clashnikoff when I first met Clash that's the first probably like might have been a couple of other occasions but being honest like that's the first time I was nervous to meet someone yeah for years and I've met loads of people over the years you know but especially if we're talking UK hip hop yeah look without the sagas I wouldn't be doing music now that's a fact man forget murder you know all I got everything you know paradise I used to listen to that you helped me go to school when I wasn't feeling good I'm listening to that on my walk to school every day at 15 so it's things like that and people like that and them interactions will always hold a deep sense of weight for me and you got a new single out as well Eight Stages came out just in March how do you feel like where you're at with music now where it's like you're saying you've left you know you've left universal and you know you're songwriting with people you're you're helping mentor the next generation like they say like a georgia smith now and how how are you in the space of music now do you see it as an outsider looking in a bit more where you've you've got this amazing experience do you know i mean like from we're talking like 15 years old to where you are now you're touring around the world how do you how do you see your place in music at the moment so I feel pretty blessed in the position that I'm at you know I've got a beautiful loyal family fan base around the world that seems to be ever growing I've been releasing independently since 2016 we've put the last two records out through Fan which is an independent label that Georgia releases through too and bands like Brick Nasty and Demet and stuff a beautiful label and yeah I've kind of split my year between touring writing for people who are really you know i really adore and then putting on my own solo music and it feels like in the best way that there's not really pressure on anything you know and it's like i'm able to kind of yeah i'm able to serve all the elements of me as a creative in that space you know yeah man i'm not like oh this record needs to do this i have this pressure it's like i know i've got this audience i know i want to grow um and the music i write them for other people is you know i'm in i'm in a space for serving them and yeah whatever they need to get out of it um and then that has its own journey and it's kind of like yeah it's a beautiful kind of peaceful place i feel at the minute you know that's that's really interesting to hear because i feel like when you think of music or when i when i hear about music and i think of music you know you hear of like our streamers and the artists not making a lot of money but then also you hear people where the labels are like you got got to do a tiktok song do you know i mean that's the thing that's yeah yeah yeah so it's quite refreshing to hear that from someone like yourself i guess that experience helps you get to the place where you're at now where you can split your year do you know what i mean yeah and i i guess again i'm i'm blessed that over time and the amount of work that's been put in that it's you know in the last couple of years things have have gotten pretty um you know balanced for me in that sense i found the groove you know i still want to find it a bit more you know i still i still want to like you know make sure i'm putting the right amount of time into everything there's you know as you probably know yourself you can easily spread yourself thin oh yeah you've got loads of things going on you know so there's definitely a maybe a little bit of a better balance to find but i think in the last couple of years it's kind of you know the space has allowed me to not have pressure on anything and i think that's when my best offers come and you know the stuff that i love and and and listen to the most the stuff that people seem to connect with the most and then stuff for other artists that seems to connect with the bones i think the best has come out of that in not being pressured and kind of going back to intuition and writing with people that i really really care for and i really appreciate what they do do you still have goals as well though as an artist where you're like oh like i still have the desire to maybe play that room or work with that artist or you know have a song that goes triple platinum, essentially?

43:50Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Or are they just things where you're just like, there was a younger part of me that might have wanted that stuff, but now the things that I look forward to as an artist are very different, very much different goals. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. I think my main thing as a kid that stays through to me now is I've never lost a hunger. I've never, I think there was a period, like that period we're talking about like 2016 where i lost a bit of the flame yeah um and it took a little minute to kind of rekindle that and i think that was just someone very pure of heart coming in purely wanting to make music and then four or five years later the journey being a bit of a roller coaster having to self-reflect a lot and go have i lost the love of music have i lost what I thought I was in this for.

44:41Yeah. And, you know, for me, it was, you know, the purpose of doing music in the first place was to be able to write from my heart, to connect with people. Why their first album's called Lonely Are The Bravest was to connect with people who felt lonely and that's your three and a half minutes in someone's ear. Like, give them a message, give them something.

44:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because people's message changed my life as a kid and educated me and made me feel not lonely and, you know, gave me some worry or spirit to move forward in certain situations So the purpose was always that. And it was always just to, I guess, blindly grow it and grow it. And I don't think I've ever lost that. I think, like, the flame dimmed a bit for a couple of years. But we did in 2021. It was the 10-year anniversary from my first album, Lonely Other Brave. And when we came down to it, you know, I was still massively in debt to Universal, which I think that the numbers I don't personally agree with.

45:43They accumulate in different ways over time, but I think looking back to see the success of the album and to see the background of what's happened, it was a choice to then go and redo the album. I was out of contract, I can re-record all my stuff at Universal. so we started with Lonely Had a Brave and I wanted to come back with the 10 year anniversary and do a tour and go here's my own version of it so we re-recorded everything from the ground up for, it took a couple months and there's a version of Lonely Had a Brave that's Mal's version that I completely own and it was just to make a point of going alright, my you know, 30 year old 31 year old self at the time is now in a better place financially and mentally that he can look after the 21-year-old version.

46:32Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. But what happened in that was I was also listening back to all my early takes as like a 19, 20, 21-year-old. And it was an egotistical thing to think I was just only going to come back in and help him. He helped me. Because I'm listening to him at that age. I say him as my own younger version. Yeah, yeah. And I hadn't fully reconnected with that flame. He had the flame more than anything. Yeah. And it taught me something that I think then reignited something in me and I think it was like my purpose. Yeah. And I've always been very strong in how I feel about my purpose and what I do and that's to spread a message and there's never been a specific point of like, you know, it needs to be this at this point and grow to this at this point.

47:14It just needs to be at every opportunity. How can I get it out to a bigger audience and a bigger audience? Because I believe in the power of music. It's changed my life and I feel like I can leave the world in a better place if I set my mind to it. as much as I can.

47:29Mo Gilligan: And when you look towards as you get older where you're in your 30s about to go into your 40s. Not yet, hold on, five years.

47:42I'll show you my... You're practically 50, mate.

47:45Mo Gilligan: Have you got your pension ready? No, no, no. But no, it's true. Do you think of stuff like that? What, age? Yeah, because I think as a musician, I look at where I am now in my life knowing that my experience is helping me write better stuff because now I've got lived experience I can go on stage and be like this is what it's like being a dad and figuring this out but this is what it's like you know being you know someone who's in this industry who is like trying to figure it out and knowing that I do this show but then people know me from that place and my experience is for better words is like paying the bills in some ways because when I'm gigging at 20 I'm talking about fucking bullshit yeah yeah yeah I'm talking about hey you know when you go to the bar and you ain't got no money you gotta drink the ice in the water yeah yeah yeah no one would come to a show like that now do you know what I mean yeah but it's all I ever knew but I think like my experience is really like it's that investment where I'm like oh like this is the thing that is allowing me to to tour and everything I'm able to do and stuff.

48:56Mo Gilligan: What do you think that is for you in some ways as a musician? You know, do you look to pensions and stuff or being in a place where you're like, listen, I just want to, you know, I've got my own studio and now just I just want to mentor artists. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you look at those things? Yeah, I guess like that is a thing that I'm always moving forward and moving towards and to constantly build the community and the background to be able to support that in the sense of, all right, what do I want in 10 years? I don't want to just be able to go in and sit and bring bands on tours or go in and write with them and give them some advice or just give them an ear or whatever like that.

49:37I'd like to be able to give them a place to stay that's curated by me, that's a studio and a living space that I know that I would get something out of and I know that a young musician would get something out of and I can do that in the hills in Ireland and go like, here's my space. That's away from all the bullshit and it's just there to create. And how much can I do that? So there's a constant thing of like wanting and going to build into that. But yeah, I think, I don't know, I guess on a music level, life happens as you grow and, you know, different experiences then inform what you're able to write about.

50:14And kind of like what you were saying about your experience now people are coming to hear your experience and they may have grown with you from that 20 year old um and they want to hear what your perspective is now yeah um and there's a beautiful maybe responsibility is too strong of a world but there's a beautiful place that you hold in people's hearts that they've grown with you yeah and it's like i think for me as a musician it's about like fine tuning what that is and as you get older it's like all right our experiences change our perspectives change you know even listening back to myself in 1920 there's certain lyrics i'm not going to write anymore because i'm not that kid that was like right i'm you know what i mean i was just back against the wall and like you know what i mean for years and that's where the loneliness and the paranoia and the understanding of that space where i was in my head of kind of like fighting alone yeah that feeling doesn't feel the same anymore it's change it's matured it's you know but then life happens so you now got all these other experiences that i was in no way capable of writing a belt and self-reflecting a belt at 20 at all.

51:18Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yes, I think it's just about fine-tuning that and finding the space and the audience for that.

51:25Mo Gilligan: Yeah. If that makes sense. All right, bruv, this has been a fantastic conversation. Yeah, right back at you. It's been such a pleasure once to also have you on my podcast as well. Do you know what I mean? Like, listening to your music from MySpace days as well, which is like, oh, right. That's a throwback. yeah yeah I don't even know if MySpace is still gone oh that's definitely gone but this has been your beginning middle and end thank you so much I really appreciate that thank you hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace