Lessons in Resilience: How Dean Forbes Transformed His Challenges into Opportunities

0:00Mo Gilligan: Yes, what's good people? My name is Mo Gilligan and right now you're tuning into the Beginning, Middle and End podcast. Now today we are joined by one of the UK's most dynamic tech leaders. We go into his extraordinary journey from growing up in South East London and overcoming real hardship to leading multiple companies through multi-billion euro ethics people. He's now not only building global businesses, but he is also championing social mobility through the Forbes family group. Please welcome to the podcast, the phenomenal Dean Forbes. But no, honestly, thanks for coming on the pod. I know how busy you are.

0:40Mo Gilligan: I know your time is very precious. I really appreciate that. My pleasure. I'm a big, big fan of you. You know, I said that to you. No, you said that to me before. I'm a big fan of yourself in a sense of, I think, Like, when I got to meet you, I had heard of your name. And I didn't know what you looked like. I don't like Googling people before I meet them. Like, if I have any important meeting or I'm just going to meet someone, I'm not going to be like, oh, that's the person. Oh, yeah? Yeah, because I just like to have my imagination of like, oh, this is the person I'm going to meet. Like, I've got friends in common and people know each other, but I have no idea.

1:15Mo Gilligan: I remember hearing of your name in a sense of, like, I'd seen the video first. That's the first ever time I kind of, I was like, oh, I don't know who this man is, but he's done this deal. I'm not too sure about it. Where we have friends in common and how we met, I was very much like, oh, like, that's a brave step to go and put yourself out there. Do you know what I mean? Like, considering the role that you're in. and I think it was very different in a sense for me because most people that I see is in the world of entertainment, musicians, singers, even some people that are behind the camera that want to be more in front of the camera.

1:54Mo Gilligan: Whereas this was the first time that I was like, oh, this is a man who's like a CEO in the boardroom. I don't know any of these people unless they are on TV. Do you know what I mean? Like Alan Sugars or I don't know, your Warren Buffetts or whatever, but you only know them because of social media, if anything. it's an interesting path you took because I never forget what you said when you said it was a hard decision for me to go public I think once I got to know you and understand your journey and see like your humble beginnings was interesting because you're from south in it you're from south London and I think most of the time when I ever meet anyone who's like a I don't know someone who's like in the boardroom as such you're like oh right you went uni and stuff like this how does it start whereas i know with you you used to kick ball when you was young right yeah yeah yeah and you were very good as well i was okay i i managed to create a reputation for myself being a little bit better than i actually was but i was all right i was all right and your your mum's your mum's an immigrant your mum's disabled as well right and you got brothers two younger brothers so what was early life like for dean growing up who had the ambitions of being a footballer but also got to look after mumsy do you know what i mean and you've got your brothers as well how did that shape your upbringing in some ways i mean it's it's funny i always say like it wasn't until i was a well-formed adult that i really understood what my upbringing was like because i i had fun like i grew up on an estate in south like a lot of us did and we were out playing football after school we had play center across the road yeah play center or community He sent across the road, table tennis and everything going on there.

3:35And yeah, as a fully formed adult, I look back and my mum would be like, okay, well, just get your brothers from school and take them home and I'm not going to be home until seven. So you need to make them some cheese on toast. And then if you guys want to go out and play, you can do that, but be back by six. So that was just like my life. Now as an adult with kids, kids who are growing up in a very different situation, I understand the hardship. I understand how little money we had. I understand she wasn't back until seven because she was working the second job. I understand that a 12-year-old having to pick up his, what would it have been, like five and six-year-old brother and bring them home and make them something to eat.

4:12Those things aren't normal for everybody.

4:15Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. But when I was a kid living through it, it never felt like a burden. I really enjoyed how I grew up. And it definitely has shaped me because I'm not, it's hard to persecute me. Like it's hard to make me feel like the world's a bad place and I'm really at a disadvantage and I've been hard done by. Because I was actually at a disadvantage and hard done by. So, you know, in life as an adult, when a deal doesn't go my way or the car I want to order is going to take six months long, it's like, OK, OK. These aren't real things. It's not a real problem. These aren't real things, mate. Yeah.

4:51Mo Gilligan: When you're at, are you the oldest amongst your brothers? Yeah, I'm the oldest of the three. So being like almost like the head of the house in some ways where, you know, you're looking after mum and you're the oldest and you're playing football because I feel like when you play football, it has this weird place that you can be in where like I'm a team player and I play as a team, but I also do care about self in a way where like, yeah, like I want to make sure I had a good game where I know I've never played at that kind of level because you was at Palace and stuff, right? because there's also a part where like yeah like i want a team to win but you know that if you took a shot and hit the crossbar you're like i wouldn't like that football was more and again it's like the retrospective view on it as an adult it was a it was an escape because i had a lot of responsibility in the house like my mom had a lot of responsibility too but but for a kid i probably did more than what is normal for a child to do in terms of contributing to the house.

5:55But helpful, because I also remember my mum would go, right, there's the money, do the shopping. Not like, here's the list, or buy this and that. She'd go, do the shopping. It's a week shopping, so we need seven dinners. And as a 12 or 13 year old, you had to go figure that out. So football became a semi-escape from all of the responsibility and all of the stuff that was going on in the house. There was some other stuff going on around the family which wasn't brilliant. So it was an escape. it was just an escape go somewhere actually be a kid right in that environment and i was good at it so i was playing for the district i was playing for the county i was playing for a pro club so it was a way to be um maybe not celebrated but but achieve like see some achievement be celebrated for being good at something be known for being one of the best in the area or best in the in London or best in the country so it was more of a an escape and then suddenly at 15 16 it became super serious and my brain didn't catch up with it when it became super serious I went into

6:58Mo Gilligan: I'm a footballer yeah this is amazing like the girls are gonna love this all of my friends are footballers too I'm one of that crowd and the footballers we knew who were older than us had nice cars and nice watches so it was only maybe 15 to 18 I was like oh this could be serious but my view of it wasn't serious. I was too happy with wearing the Crystal Palace tracksuit and telling people I was a footballer. I forgot to concentrate on being a footballer. Like I missed that part. It must be hard to concentrate because I feel like if you're a young boy and you are earning a bit of money through playing football and you live in a council estate, like it must be quite tricky because when you're the young boy who plays football in the ends you get a free pass in the sense of like allow him in it he's alright do you know what I mean but then there's also the part of you that is like yeah but I like some of those things that I see some of the bad boys that might have in the area and it's not and when I say the things that they have it's those it's those quick money things do you know what I mean it's like oh Robert you man got mopeds all you man got nice cars and nice trainers chops yeah and I remember being at an age where I'd see some of those boys in the estate and they'd have you know I remember this was a time when like mobile phones were coming out and I'd always be like oh mum like I really want like a Nokia innit Nokia face off and my mum got me this this Vodafone make phone terrible man and it was just like I don't want to get this out around the guys, man.

8:41Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Because they're all like, oh yeah, they make a ringtone and they make a ringtones, but also... Playing Snake. They're playing Snake. Yeah, yeah. Playing Snake. Snake won as well where you couldn't go through the wall. But seeing like, that was quick money and knowing that my mum was like, I've had to save up to buy you this phone and I'm sorry it didn't come with a game. Do you know what I mean? Right. Being at such a young age when you're at like Palace and you're like 17 and stuff and you're almost a bit of a leader at home and then kind of like on the football pitch in some ways where you're playing with a group of people.

9:16Mo Gilligan: Do you ever think any of those experiences transferred to making you the person that you are now in some ways? Home or football or both? I guess like a mixture because I always say like sometimes you can grow up in an environment where it's like it's hard and you can't cry because there's no food at home. You're just like there's just no food and we just got to make what is, like whatever's there, that's what we've got to make essentially. Do you know what I mean? So once you get to a place of where you are now, where a deal might, you know, this deal ain't happening and everyone's distressed, you're like, guys, listen, let's crack on, man.

9:55Mo Gilligan: Like did some of those qualities kind of transfer to getting to you, get to turning to the person that you are now in some ways? A hundred percent. I think like some of the main ones are, one comes from my mum a lot. My mum, like you say, immigrant, disabled, black woman, single parent. She's had every disadvantage you could imagine. And I never saw her in a victim frame of mind. Like even now, she's never in a victim frame of mind. She's always, yeah, I'm just going to get up tomorrow and go and do that. I'm just going to go and do that tomorrow. She had such a, yeah I'm just gonna do that mindset right and she's still like that today like the funniest story with my mum this is a great representation of how my mum thinks right so my mum is pretty much wheelchair bound now she refuses to live with anybody right she wants to live around wants to be independent and she's telling me for ages she's flying to Canada to spend time with our family and I'm going well who are you going with I'm going on my own like who's going to take you to the airport I'll get an Uber like all of these things which physically this woman is incapable of doing so we're fighting about this canada trip because i'm like if she does it on her own it could be harmful to her health she'd had like four strokes two aneurysms like just traveling long haul to canada on her own is out of the question so we're fighting about this and we're fighting the night before she goes i'm going listen you can't go how are you going to get to the airport i'll call it uber how are you going to get your suitcases to the uber i'll figure it out so i left her house at like 8 p.m the night before she's due to flight and i'm so angry and in my head i'm going i'm just going to let her go like she'll learn she has to learn i can't keep arguing with her and then at 5 a.m i get up i get in my car i go and pick her up i get the bags in the car i take her to the airport i upgrade the seat i make sure the people take her all the way through and as they're pushing her through and i'm waving her go right she turns around she goes to the person like stop a minute and she turns around she goes see i told you i'd get to the airport this is a complete like if i want to do it like somehow the stars are going to align to do it so when you grow up with this woman who insisted that we get a's who always made sure we ate who never went to the school to defend me if i did nonsense she was always like these are our standards despite having all of those disadvantages you kind of don't know how to make excuses like you're just conditioned year age one to 17 that we get up and do in this house like if we want something to happen we go and we go and do it and not in the cliche sense people say now like come on you can be anything you want to be you've seen it like you saw it every single day so that is my mentality and that comes from that comes from my mom and i think Secondly, growing up in the environment we did, family structure that we had, some dysfunction in and around the family that we had, no money, homeless twice.

12:56I've just beaten so many situations where the odds were against me or us that even in situations where I feel like an underdog or I might be an underdog, it's a place I've spent so much of my life. I'm comfortable there. right so if you come to the boardroom now where a lot of stuff might be with you know people who had a better education than me they might be older than me they might be more experienced than me so odds are infinitely against me in those situations my advantage is I'm comfortable in the underdog situation I'm comfortable with the odds against me I'm comfortable in defeat because I've had so many of them it's quite liberating yeah I mean that this guy's got the pressure because he's been to Oxford his company's bigger than mine And he's got the brand, he's got the accolades, and he's having to deal with me.

13:49I'm not supposed to win. So it perversely becomes liberating because I'm so comfortable in those underdog and difficult situations.

13:57Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. So I'm grateful for it. Like people say, would you go back and change it? I say, are you kidding? Because the outcome would probably be less resilience and less tolerance, and I would have broken in some of the situations I've been in. I guess in terms of your job as well, like because you haven't, like you're saying, you don't have the expertise of the background of some of the people that have gone to the elite schools, there must be something that's almost like when you do window, it must be like, come on, Beth, come on. because I only say that because I've been in those positions myself where, you know, I didn't go to drama school.

14:46Mo Gilligan: I've done university. I went to university and done performing arts and, you know, I don't have no famous parents. I never had a bring-in. So, you know, when you do get to go to these things, you're like, you man, we're going to enjoy this, isn't it? A hundred percent. Let's assert ourself and be professional. and there is those moments where you look around and you're like, there's nothing that can go wrong. I can get the lines wrong, but I'm here, innit? It's too late now. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's so important as well, because you get to a certain altitude and I think you're a great example of this, that sometimes the success can distort the journey.

15:27You forget how far you had to travel to get to this point. like the very fact you're in the room or you're in this space is an unbelievable accomplishment let alone getting the lines right getting it perfect selling out all the stadiums in your case I mean that's amazing but I mean you would have to speak for it yourself to be in a conversation about selling out the O2 for the conversation to exist just for it to exist and it be a real thing like not a bunch of us sat in the bedroom at home going that would be like it's a real yeah it doesn't even have to get to happening and being a sellout

16:04Mo Gilligan: and being a major success this conversation exists it was never it should never exist yeah yeah it should never ever exist but it does that's and I think sometimes we can't we can't forget the journey just to that point the journey to be inside in the boardroom talking about selling this company for 250 million years are you kidding like how on earth did you all let this guy in here to be having this that's all I think yeah how did you allow this to happen but I'm here now so game time so then after you've because you've played football but you didn't carry on playing football you had an injury was it shin splints or something like this I had shin splints but if I didn't have shin splints we'd probably still be here having this conversation so do you feel like with football that you nude your ceiling does that make sense at the time I didn't but looking back now like you know Rio was in my year Clint and Morrison was a little bit younger than me like there's a list of players who were in and around me.

16:58And when I look at how they trained, how they played, how they lived their life, and how I lived mine, it's clear to me why they had the success they had and I didn't. And ability-wise, I wasn't good enough to not try as hard as they did. They were better than me and tried harder. So the way it worked out for everybody football-wise makes sense to me.

17:19Mo Gilligan: How hard is it keeping up, though, with your friends who are footballers and making money because they make because then they're also at a point if you're saying like Rio Ferdinand's your friend and people like Clinton Morrison and I know you've spoken about this before about you know you going into a lot of debt and going to the clubs and everything else but how almost dangerous is that when you're trying to keep up with people when you're not where you need to be in life because you go into a lot of debt right I think it's like 80 grand or something like this yeah 88 grand of debt I mean it was super dangerous for me because like I said I came into that phase of football which was full time football more obsessed with having an image of being a footballer than actually being a footballer so I started to chase the financial aspect of it because I had friends who were doing well at football and were buying nice things and I was like okay there's a gap opening up where people are going to be able to see that I'm not really one of the footballers so I started borrowing money to keep up with them so that was very dangerous my escape from it is very fortunate that I came out of it quickly i got a job i started to earn so i i recovered quickly thankfully but i do think it's a dangerous um and important thing and i think it's a bit misunderstood that sometimes people look at like 17 and 18 and 19 year old boys coming from working class environment whatever color they are oh you know you got to 18 or 19 and started to buy you know big cars and jewellery and clothes you should be more responsible and of course they should be more responsible but again what you miss is I think especially for young men like we grew up maybe 10 to 18 and every time we see a Mercedes at that age we're like one day I'm going to get that every time we see a nice watch for 8 years maybe more we go yeah when I'm there that's what I'm going to so we've been telling ourselves for 10 years that when the day comes when that day comes when you're allowed to these are all the things I'm going to go and get so if you tell yourself that for 8-9 years with all of your friends and then you sign your contract to Arsenal or you do your first music like your first single goes nuts what nonsense would it be to imagine that that young man isn't going to get the check get it at the bank and go straight to that garden there's enough you can't stop the person doing that they've been dreaming of that for eight years nine years yeah yeah yeah so so the intervention has to happen sooner to try to discourage people from doing that because if you let that fester for eight years yeah what else is gonna what else gonna and i had my moment of that even when i made money later i still did it and i was older than like 19 to what chances are 19 or 20 year old kid got and i and i guess it's that thing where I think within our community we are massively attracted by shiny things it's those shiny things and it starts off with when I got my first check it was like I'm going into the stone island shop and I'm getting the tracksuit in every color I didn't need them but I just wanted them just to be the first that like if you see me on the street you're like oh right there's a mint green one oh that's mo what you saying mo it's those things that it's like you're saying and you wait until you can get them and you finally get those things and it takes you until you've spent all the money and you're like this is just this is just cloth do you know what I mean like these are just crepes like so for you did you have that as well oh yeah definitely had that 100 % I think for me like I I'm I always I'm a big fan of sharing so my experiences felt like I had won and I wanted my friends and my family to win with me.

21:12Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? And it was like, and I've said it a few times of like getting that first big check of, you know, going into to buy the Stone Island tracksuit, going into shops and getting horrible treatment. Do you know what I mean? I remember going into one shop and I wanted to buy, I wanted to buy something and I was like, I want to get this one. It was like, yeah, cool, cool. And then just walked off and just left me. And I couldn't believe it and I was outraged. and it was this for me it was also this now I'm going to prove you wrong so instead of I didn't buy anything but I just went into another shop where they would treat me nice and they would give me the champagne and I was like yeah see that's how you get treated this is what it's supposed to be yeah when you realise it you're like yeah I don't need to be in these shops but also I think it's the what's behind the door you know once you get that little oh that's behind the door or hey sir would you like to come in the private room and you're like, oh, there's a private room?

22:07Mo Gilligan: I didn't even know that. It's all those things that make you get addicted to those things that make you then feel like, well, this is how I should live life. Do you know what I mean? And I think it's as much as it's important to, I think it's important to buy those things and realise you don't need them, but it's also important to have the people around you that often question you, not say, why are you buying that? But sometimes I did need a friend to be like, right boy man spending six bills in the gilet I wish I could you know and that's those moments where I say ah maybe I should yeah who is that for you that would say those things or would be like hey listen Dean man like I know I know things ain't working well right now and I know you're in a bit of debt and stuff who were those people that were around for you when you was that age I didn't have it then that's how I got into the 90 grand of debt I didn't really have the people at that point.

23:08When I came out of that, I kind of met my wife shortly after that and we started kind of building life together. So things got a little bit more sensible

23:16Mo Gilligan: on that journey, a little bit more. We still had extreme financial moments along the way. Now, I always say it's like probably the number one reason And if not, it's one of the most important reasons things are going as well for me now. And I'm as blessed as I am now. It is because of the circle of people around me. And that circle has changed a lot over the years. But that circle is exactly the, you know, the kind of center and mechanism that you just described. Right. When I start veering and I'm a strong minded person and I kind of stay central most of the time. But I'm a person. So I have moments where I drift a little bit.

24:02it is that circle who are like hold on a minute like we're seeing all the videos and it seems like you've been on the road for a little bit yeah yeah last time he's at home I stopped in I had Wednesday at home yeah it's Sunday today like you've got kids what's happening like people who hold you to account people who you love and respect enough that when the call comes in you know you're a bit receptive to it because that's the counterbalance of being strong minded that you can dismiss easily but when you love the person you respect them and you take the call and you also know that that challenge isn't coming through jealousy or through envy or through any bad, it's easier to it's easier to take and I'm very fortunate in the circle around me that's how these people are designed and I get those calls, you know I still get them, I'm a big man now I still get them but they're probably, like I said one of the most important things that keeps me progressing and one of the most important things to me that I have those people who can call me out like that.

25:07Mo Gilligan: Early on in your career, you've done tele-sales, right? And when you've done tele-sales, because I can relate to tele-sales in a way how I've done retail. And I remember being in retail environments that some I absolutely loved because the people I was around made me feel like, right, it's a bit of a family. and we're all sales assistants. Some people are older, some people are younger, but this is a nice, I like coming into work. Yes, it's a bit hard, but you know, when you make your targets together, it felt like, oh, we made our target, we get extra little 40 pounds on top of our pay. We're in Yates, we're in the U.S.

25:44Yeah, yeah.

25:45Mo Gilligan: But I vividly remember the places I hated working in, like to the point where I would leave and I would just be like, yeah, just beside myself in the sense of like, I hate, I hate this environment I hate this manager and I would prove I would prove to myself where I'm like you know what no I'm going to go and sell this shirt watch me sell this shirt to this guy and get a big sale just so I could prove him wrong in a sense of I know you don't want me here I know you can't stand me I can't stand you but watch me sell this without you know he'd always say to me I'll never forget this one manager he'd always be like yeah you know he'd test me he'd be like Samo what do you think of this coat?

26:29Mo Gilligan: This is a lovely coat, man. What do you think of the material? Do you think it's nice? I'm like, oh, it's lovely, man. It's like a nice cashmere mix. Do you know where that cashmere is from? I say, no, I don't even know, you know. He goes, hmm, you're just not reading the manuals, are you? And I was like, oh, this prick. You're testing me, man. I thought you were having a conversation. And I absolutely hated being there. I'll never forget the day that I left because for me, it was just, I'd reached a point where I was like, I knew my worth. Do you know what I mean? What was that like for you in tele-sales where you're doing a job that you hate, but you know you're worth and how good you can be?

27:08I don't know if the worth thing came into it, right? And the hard thing with tele-sales, and I've said this before, it was like, I can't remember the exact dates, but maybe on Wednesday, I trained as a footballer, like 10 until 12, be a table tennis afterwards, bit of lunch down the road, laughing. Like 10 until 4, you're just laughing or playing football. That's how life as a footballer worked. And say that was on Wednesday. Then by Friday, I was doing my first job in telesales. So there was no induction or soft landing. It was like, bang, there's the phone. You call from this list. Here's the script.

27:4780 outbound calls today. You need to book X number of appointments. I went from that environment to that one with a manager who whose management style was like to shout at people or like to rip and then there's the phones plugged in so like if people did nonsense he would like rip the phone out and throw it on the floor and so you know i've told you're an idiot like you'll never get it you might as well leave now like that's how we that's how we spoke to people so it couldn't have been a higher contrast uh environment yeah and i've said often man it was like it was now people would reflect on it as like mental health break like i was super super low like crying in the toilet so i go in the toilet at three o 'clock and be like i want to stay in here for half an hour and then you look at your watch you think you've been in there for 20 minutes

28:39Mo Gilligan: it's 303 like you've been in the toilet for three minutes so it was it was it was horrible it was absolutely horrible but i also remember the moment at motorola doing tele-sales where i was like which like which guy do i want to be like do i want to be the person who came here who who failed as a footballer came here couldn't even do tele-sales so where is the next place like you know if we follow this trajectory downwards like where's the next place you want to be that guy or do you want everybody here to have to like respect you and i remember that conscious thing in my head going I'm leaving here but I'm leaving when all of you respect me and you see that I could do this job if I wanted to it's just I didn't want to do it so I went on a bit of a rampage of I'm getting out of here as soon as I can and that moment will be the moment after I've proven beyond the shadow of that to anybody here that I can do this job and then I became good at it I just put my mind to it sales and I became good at it and I could and I got promoted twice and then I could leave with my pride intact.

29:47But it was a very low, very low nine months.

29:50Mo Gilligan: When you left, did they want you to stay? Because if you've been promoted twice, you're like, we don't want to leave. We don't want Dean to leave. I took the phone unplugger's job off of him. He moved on and I took that job. But I didn't have any interest in it and I went and took another sales job somewhere else which was really helpful. and do you feel like that really is your start of doing the job that you hate to then being like i'm gonna be so good as i'm gonna leave to now do a job that i like doing because a lot of people don't get that luxury of being in a job that they hate and then to the point where i'm so good at it i'm gonna leave and now find my my in my job you know um it comes back a bit to the resilience thing because in my mind, one year, two years, three years, I'm fine because I've just decided now I'm staying here.

30:48I'm determining how long I'm going to stay here. I've determined what will allow me to leave. So I'm taking control of this situation and all I have to do to leave this job that I don't like is become so good at it. That's the only thing I have to do. So it's definitely a way my brain works. This situation I'm in that I don't like, I'm going to take full control of it and full accountability for it it's nothing to do with Motorola it's not Crystal Palace his fault for releasing me it's not the guy's fault Saji Burton who took my place in the team I just need to get myself out of it and from that moment it was it became a lot easier so

31:26Mo Gilligan: what year is this what year are we talking because you mentioned Motorola in it and I'm like yeah that must is this like the 90s you're saying yeah why are you saying that No, because I'm like, Motorola, telesales. I'm like trying to get a picture of the time, roughly. That would have been 98. 98? 98, 99. That's crazy. I just left primary school, you know. What are you doing there? What's happening there? I just left primary school. I just went into secondary school. So at this time, because the only reason why I asked at the time, because I feel like the 90s going into the 2000s where I always like to judge culture by what's also happening around in culture, so whether it's music at the time.

32:13Mo Gilligan: And, you know, it goes into that kind of, into the 2000s, which is, you know, the turn of the millennium. And, you know, you've got the Millennium Dome and they're talking about, oh, you know, Labour government and all this kind of stuff. Most talking about it like they invented the computer and the light bulb came out. And the combustion engine. I know that you're an entrepreneur, but in your field it's tech as well. And because you've been so successful in this field, it's almost like now we're at a point where we're like, oh, AI, where's that going? We know what's going, but we don't. But then you've got this.

32:54Mo Gilligan: And I feel like that turn of the millennium really felt like you blinked. and you're like, oh, right, now we've got phones that are colour. Do you know what I mean? Now we've got a phone with a camera. And I'm only linking that to just what I can remember at that time. But I don't know what the boardroom is like in this time because I know that you went to another company right at this time and wasn't there something about you wanting equity and they didn't give you the equity? Yeah, like at that, I mean, at that time and that moment in my career, it wasn't like okay I'm planning out this career and I'm going to make this move that move and that move I made the jump from Motorola to a startup and there was four people there was three people and I was the fourth person and long story short that company was getting sold to Vodafone a little while after that and I thought because I was one of the first four people there that I had equity in the company because that's the way the managing director always talked about is the four of us we've been pushing this we've been driving it so I thought I had 25 percent of the company when it got sold to Vodafone.

34:00And I learned that I didn't the hard way. But that tuned my mind into this whole equity thing. So when I went to the next company, which was an American software company that wanted to grow in Europe and Asia, I negotiated equity. Even though I didn't really understand really what equity meant, I just knew at the last place these guys were selling for 40 million and the 40 million was being divided among the people who had equity. and that I felt like I missed out on that. So when I went to the next place, I was very tuned into these magic beans called equity. I didn't know really what it meant, but I got equity.

34:38Like I negotiated it, I got it. And as time progressed, I was young, I was unmarried, I didn't have kids. So I was able to travel Europe and Asia and build this company. So I would go to Germany and I'd stay there for six weeks and hire people and find an office. then I'd go to Dubai and do the same, then I'd go to Paris. So I was able to go and spend time and really build this company. And over the nine years I was doing that job, I would always negotiate for more equity because it was going so well. And my part of the business became the same size as the rest of the business in the US. So it grew much faster than the headquarters, much faster than the US business.

35:21So I created a lot of value in that. and I ended up with a reasonable portion of equity. And then that company got sold to Oracle for$550 million. And by that point, I had a meaningful chunk of equity. And two things happened. That financially changed mine and my family's life when that happened. But also in my field, when you're an exec or CEO of a company that's successfully grown and been acquired with an outside investor, it's a bit like I don't know it's a bit like a medal for you to have like if you're an exec in tech with private equity sponsors and you can exit successfully like that it's like being an athlete that's got a medal at an Olympics right you're an athlete, you compete nationally you compete regionally, then you go to the Olympics then you get a medal, it's like okay there's only a small group who get that crown of building something and exiting it and I've done that and I was 27 at the time so the calls start coming in from other investors saying hey we're going to buy this company or we're already in that one do you want to come in so it just opened up the universe of opportunity for me and it was that gateway that let me do that

36:38Mo Gilligan: When you're in this job and you're going to these places like Germany and Dubai and working with American companies and you've got friends that are from South London and stuff how is how are you translating that to your friends because you were saying before where you know like your friends are the people that are going to pull you up and you have your community and stuff but you know I've got friends that have jobs and they say things and I'm like I don't even know what that's about do you know what I mean because you know if I've got a friend who says to me oh you know I work at you know I work on the trains I'm like I kind of feel like I know what that job is and like how is work and I could imagine and I've seen this in the news and blah, blah, blah.

37:22Mo Gilligan: With your community and where you're from, when you're able to come back home with your friends or go out for a drink or whatever, are you still being able to detach from work and social life? Because I feel like you're in a field where if you're in that field, you know what's going on. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if I said to my friends, I'm like, yeah, I just bought some shares in this and they're like, yeah, all right, cool, bro. that's yeah we got the old thing still yeah sounds good for you um

37:56earlier mo i think that friendship circle when i was a bit younger you know didn't understand it fair enough but there was this thing about um still being the same person and i found that hard and that's why the circle had to change because it was like I'd go set up this office or acquire this company you know be in my corporate world and then I'd come back home and there'd be this expectation that we'd pick up right where we left off right so you go doing this corporate stuff doing this amazing you know these amazing business deals building this company then you come home and they're like okay we're gonna go to these five night clubs on Saturday and get home at you know 1pm on a Sunday

38:36Mo Gilligan: this is the West End boom days isn't it this is the West End Studio Vibon I knew you was in these clubs bro China White said that

38:45and there was that expectation and you're like well I'll get to work on Monday and I don't know if I really want to be doing this and that caused friction in those relationships not even because I think those people were truly obsessed with raving I think it was more they were like no no no don't you can't change don't be some different person when you come back and now my circle is I mean they're not experts on tech or private equity but we're all similarly minded like we all think about the same things we all look at progress in the same way think about family in the same way so that makes it easier do I come back and talk about the EBITDA on this transaction versus the debt ratio that we can get from the banks and how leveraged I am which are things people in my world understand well no but do I talk about where I want the company to be next year and why that's important yeah the same as they talk about what they're doing and do you know what I mean?

39:41So we've got kind of a common ground which is progression, values, less than specifics.

39:48Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. When you're selling a company for, let's say, 500 million, how long does a deal like that take? Like what goes into that in terms of, you know, is that being with your family at times, you know, your family, your children when they're a bit younger and you're like, listen, I'd love to take you to the park, but it's Sunday and I have to do this thing. Does it ever stop or is it a nine to five for your case? At this point in my career, I've got more control over that. But major transactions probably take a year. Okay. It'll be six months to a year really to get done. And the last eight weeks of that are 24-hour days, like on a meaningful transaction.

40:39to like the billion euro transaction that we did. Yeah, you're getting into, last six weeks, you're into 20-hour days. Things are just going, you know, right the way around the clock. So, yeah, all of the rest of life just has to go on pause while you're working on that. When I'm acquiring stuff, if I'm selling, it's normally like that. If I'm acquiring something, I can normally, you know, dictate the pace of it and get other people involved. But if it's big and meaningful to me, I'm in the middle of it. Like, I'm the leader of it, I don't.

41:08Mo Gilligan: do you ever feel like you missed out on a lot when you're trying to get these deals over the line where you're trying to have the perfect mix of balance where only the only reason why I asked I remember when I was single and I live by myself and I could do any show anytime any place anywhere and I would do something in LA and I'm on TV here and at that specific time I was on every channel in the UK probably by one maybe like channel five but I didn't feel like I had anything to show for it. I would come home at the end of the day and the house is empty and the house is cold, the heating ain't on because I've got to put the heating on.

41:49Mo Gilligan: At times I'd sleep on the sofa because my bed would feel so empty. Do you know what I mean? And yes, I had friends, I had family around but I chased work so much that I was like, I don't like this feeling, man. and it was only until I got really ill that I was like, okay, this is very, very lonely. What was that like for you when you're kind of having to chase, little set on chase but you're trying to close a deal that's a year and you are so work driven and you have family life especially at the early days, I guess now where you're almost like, like you're saying like you're your own boss, you can dictate how it works and I guess there must be people like, oh, this will on deed man you know let's give him that week off because we know what he can do whereas this was probably at a stage where people didn't so how was you able to juggle family life and work life when you've got you know a deal that you're trying to close that's worth 500 million i'm very lucky because the like me and daniel did this as partners right we we were very intentional with it you know So if I look at the job, that first job I talked about where we sold for 550, I was in a global role by the end of that.

43:05And I might spend, I'd spend a minimum of two weeks, probably closer to three weeks of every four weeks traveling on the road around the world. But that partnership was so important because we would sit down and go, OK, I've been offered this promotion. It's a global role. They're saying it's two weeks a month on the road, probably going to be free. we had three kids under two right so they're all very close in age and we'd sit down and talk about like can we manage this okay we need a nanny we need a night nanny can we afford that yeah we can okay what is this going to mean for us what is this going to mean for my relationship with the kids okay that means when you're back in that week you have to really be present and we have to do these things and make sure we do the swim in and we do the zoo and we're going to do it all in that week so we were super intentional about it and throughout my career every big choice I've made every big job I've taken we we do that we sit together and go right what does this what does this mean and are we are we okay with it and over uh 27 years since I've met her there's only been one moment where I was like I want to do this with my career and she was like all right I don't think I don't think we can do that like I think that's going to be too much for us to do that and that was moving the entire family a long way away from where we we lived and the family were very young so she was saying I'm going to be away from your mum my mum the complete support network and the best you'll be able to do is hire a network of strangers around us and I don't want to raise our kids a long way away from their family but with strangers I'm happy to for you not to be there happy I can live with you not being around but then they got to grow up with their grandparents their aunts and their cousins but they can't sacrifice that and not be so that was the one time in 27 years but I know myself and she knows me and I'm driven I'm ambitious I always want to achieve the next thing can we do this bigger can we do this better so it would have been stifling for me as a person like for anybody anybody in my life including her to go well I need a better balance you know you need to be 50 % home with the kids that's what I need from you like that would have that would have ended the relationship because I'm not designed to be that way I'm happy working I get fulfillment from working I get endorsement from working so I want to do that so it's best for everybody it's best for everybody

45:39Mo Gilligan: if you let me recreate a situation where I can do that I look back now and I think time will tell when my kids are 17, 17 and 18, I'm waiting for one of them to say, oh, you were never around. I say, well, it's funny because you're saying that on your Bluetooth in your brand new car. And I'm not saying material things replace presents, but they've certainly, well, I would like to think that there's a lot of good that has come from how I've spent my time. Time will tell and the kids will determine if I made the right choice and not for me to say that. Like they will say when they get to 25, 26, you know what, we're grateful for the choices you make.

46:23They may say, we would have preferred for you to be more present. I don't know. I don't think I get to make that choice.

46:29Mo Gilligan: Do you fear that in some ways though, your children saying that? Of course. Yeah, every parent is trying to make the best choices, the best balancing, the best sacrifices and thinks they're making the best choice for their kid. But what I've observed is it's not really until the kid gets like 26, 28, fully formed adult, couple of relationships themselves, few jobs, like they understand the context in which you made the choices that you made. When I had kids, it improved my relationship with my parents, especially my mum. I was like, oh, you weren't a raving lunatic. You were just trying to protect us.

47:11Like you were so... That behaviour of yours, which I viewed as abrasive and aggressive, I now understand as protective. I'm a parent now. But I had to become a parent to appreciate that. So I definitely fear it. Of course, I'm scared of it. But it's their choice. It'll be their, they'll determine it. Don't you worry about it? I mean, you're still, you're working a lot now. You're on the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got kids.

47:38Mo Gilligan: That's why I ask about, I guess, the sacrifice, because I think the minute I started to do television and touring and what I'd sacrifice of very similar, being on the road for months at a time, you sacrifice not being around my immediate family, being my mum, my sister, and then feeling like, oh, you don't really phone us. And I'm like, well, I'm eight hours away. I can only really phone you in the morning if I can. But even then, I've got to go to meetings and stuff. And I think the sacrifice that you will make for your career is really where people around you can then start enjoying the fruits of your labor.

48:19Mo Gilligan: But I think the sacrifice can also come across as like, well, you're being a bit selfish because, and I'm like, I hear that. But listen, I won't be able to get to that stage for you to enjoy those fruits of my labor, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. But also, you know, I think the family and friends have to understand you as a person as well, right? Like, look at all of the talent that you have. Look at all the brilliance that you have. And you want to share that and give that to the world. That takes time. And because we love you, we want the world to see that. So for the world to see that, you have to get on planes and you have to go to other places, right?

49:02So because we know you and we love you, we should want that to happen. You're not flying around the world partying and you're not away from home doing nonsense. You're applying that God-given talent and skill in a meaningful, huge platform way. We want that for you. We want that for you. But there's a cost of that. The cost of that is you have to be away. and I think what you said is the important thing that okay we've supported you in doing that what does it mean for you and can it mean something for us and if it can't that's that's a beautiful thing ain't it

49:42Mo Gilligan: yeah you're in a place now in your career where you know you are brokering deals of a billion pounds and you're in a place now where and I remember you saying this where and I'm going back to what I was saying earlier in speaking to you where you was like me going public of what this means for me and my family and everything else that comes with it and also people asking for things because I guess when you broker some people are just hearing a billion they're not understanding you're like oh he's brokered the deal oh okay I get that all right and there's some people that will be like all right I just broke it it all it's not his deal is it but then like you're going to get you're going to get the kind of naivety that comes with that but you're also going to get this oh who's this I need to know who this person is what lengths have you found people have gone to now that you're in this kind of spotlight now and it's like I don't know what it's like in your DMs I closed my DMs years ago because I was like and I only use it and the reason why one for me it was just more my just my mental health the toll because there's there's some people that say some really nice things which is really nice to hear then also there's some people who say some really nasty things and you're like bro why would you write that at 3am are you alright what did I do to you yeah I didn't do nothing to you man but also I think the reason why I turned off because I couldn't just be like well I just want to read all the praise let me go through all this and read all the praise but then also let me then go through it and read the negative I just said look I'd rather just not have anything so for you going public and brokering a deal that is a billion pounds what yeah how did that start to change your life because now there is a face to this.

51:51Mo Gilligan: It's not just a headline in, I don't know, the business newspaper or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Now you're a face of it and you're also someone where people are like, this is a brother from the end still. I thought, man, Dean, you know, I know Dean, you know, I swear I used to kick ball with my man still. So like, how is that, how was that for you and your family?

52:18um it's it's everything like it's a bit of it's a bit of everything first of all i cannot explain enough to people that i'm the ceo of these companies right and as part of being the ceo i'm given some equity i'm given some shares in the company more recently i've invested my own money into that company too right so i might be given five percent because it's that's normal for a CEO to be given some shares and then I might buy another five or 10 % of the company so that's how I might end up owning 10 or 15 % of the company I'm CEO of and then my job is to build those companies to the point that they get acquired and if they get acquired for 100 pounds then I make 15 of that and there's other elements that can affect that 15 but generally that's how it works so yeah of course you get people going because I've done I did one exit which was a billion and the others total total the billions there's two billion in exits and we started to let that be in the press and then yeah of course it's everything from your family you know your family in jamaica ring you and go oh you know i heard i heard you got the two billion now did this happen yeah of course it happened there was um i was telling a story over there about my uncle who hadn't spoken to for years he calls me from jamaica he says you know i've got a business I don't want to run by you but I'm not ready to run it by you.

53:41I'm like, cool. I'm thinking, you know, he wants a little coffee shop or something. I'm trying to connect what he could possibly want with the person I know he is and what his reach at a stretch might be. And long story short, we got on the phone, he's like, yeah, the AstroTurf thing. I want to put some AstroTurf pitches down. The kids need somewhere to play. Costed it all out. I'm going to need nine million pounds.

54:12and from here it's only downside for me because all I can be from this moment on is the person who could give him£9 million and didn't that's the only thing I can be nobody in his household or the neighbouring households is going to rationalise that the guy with£2 billion wouldn't even give his uncle immediately£9 million nobody's going to go that this this, not to be disrespectful, but £9 ,000 might be on the edge of his financial level of... So I'm having that conversation. I think I was in my car once. One of my favourite stories. I was driving home. I was having a dinner at home with some business friends of mine.

54:53And I was going to be late. There was a lot of traffic. And I was driving through Brixton. I said to the driver, look, I'm going to jump out. I get the train straight to Seven Oaks. I'll be home in like you know 30 minutes so I'm going to jump out so I got out of the car in traffic in Brixham as I got out of the car

55:09Mo Gilligan: this guy went Dean! Dean! I've been sending you my business plan and I started jogging to the station because I had to catch my train and this guy was running alongside me first part chastising me because I didn't get back to him on the business plan that he sent me and then the second part of the jog like doing the pitch of what the business plan was and then we're stood on the platform at Brixham station and he's going to me so what do you think are you going to go for it or not and I was just thinking what do you want from me i'm just trying to get trying to go home i'm trying to get home so there's so some of those elements are like funny mo the part that is less funny is of course as you'll know with um with publicity comes scrutiny and i always say to like my family and my team don't get everywhere we go all we hear is applause right which is nice you know we go places where we're always well received people are always positive you know you every time I've met you've always been like so positive and so warm towards me and that's generally my experience with people but we can't forget that people are still people so even though where we go we're hearing applause it doesn't mean everybody's clapping yeah and from time to time that energy does seep through the net and then I do sit down a little bit like you and I think like why why am I do this?

56:32Like it makes me come back to the purpose of doing it which it is for genuine reasons. It is with authenticity that I think it's a good thing. But when that energy seeps through a little bit I kind of think alright like what? I get angry with the person. Don't you realise I don't even need to be doing this? Like I'm not an entertainer. I'm not a sports person because in those careers popularity is currency in my in my world popularity may be among my employee community is helpful beyond that it doesn't I don't make a pound for being known or and okay yeah have I been paid for stuff because I'm now popular yes is it money that is meaningful to me not to diminish that at all right but it doesn't compare at talk to what I can make from going to work, doing my nine to five, dealing with my customers, dealing with my employees and going home and nobody.

57:33So it, it used to bother me a little bit that that smoke would come. Cause I'd always, my reaction would always be,

57:39Mo Gilligan: bro, I don't need you. Shut up. I don't even need to, I don't even need to, I don't even need to be here. Now I just kind of accept it a little bit as look, come on Dean man, you made the choice. You knew what you were doing when you made the choice. You stepped out. You could have stopped this at any moment. So you don't get to complain about it. Now it's kind of par for the course. But you would be more experienced with it than I would because it's probably more part of your daily world than it is mine. Yeah, I think for my world, it's, yeah, you know, you get invited to whatever the thing is and you're like, oh, I would just like to go.

58:14Mo Gilligan: My curiosity has led me to be like, I would like to go to Wimbledon. I've never been before. Let's go. Do you know what I mean? And then you get the call the next year and the next year. but that's also due to how much you're working because if you're not working then they're not going to invite you because that's how it works they're like oh we had this person here or that person here which I guess is also quite a nice position for someone like yourself to be in where you can one day just kind of choose to just check out if you wanted to where you're like going to probably not do some of the podcasts and not have such a front face of putting my name to things because I guess the position you're in is it's your name.

58:57Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? You've set up the Forbes family group. You're helping under represented entrepreneurs and young people through mentoring and I remember you invite me to your dinner. Was that your office, that place? No, it was my house. No, in London Bridge. Oh, the Shard. No, that's not my office. That's my investment banker's office. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because I remember when we got there, man, because I've been, obviously, I've been to the Shard and gone to the restaurants. But that's a different door, you know. All right, I've never been through this door, you know.

59:33Mo Gilligan: Excuse me, sir, who's here to sit? We're here for the event. Okay, all right, cool, cool. So what made you also step into that place? Because now you're in a position where you want to help people. And it can be very easy for you to say, well, you know, this is what I do. I need to earn money for my family and get to another level that you already want to get to. What was it about making the Forbes family group so beneficial for yourself? Because you speak about it a lot. It's very front face and it's not just like, oh, we've got this thing happening.

1:00:14Mo Gilligan: Yeah, why is that so important? Let me tell you how that started. So I went to, I think it was Downing Street. I went to Downing Street to meet Boris Johnson, like a small group of us went to meet Boris Johnson. And I was so excited about this meeting. I was like, right, I did my research. I know how much he's defunded community centres. I know how much he's taken out of youth schemes. Wait till I meet this guy, right? So he comes, I meet him and I'm ready. I'm like, you know, you want to deal with antisocial behaviour. You need to put money back into communities. you've taken this many billions out of community centres over time it's a disgrace you know you need to do better and so I'm berating Boris Johnson and then his team kind of realised that this angry black guy is just like hammering him so they kind of move him away and I felt a little and you're doing this in Downing Street I'm doing it in Downing Street oh right I'm doing it in Downing Street and so they take him away and I kind of felt really good with myself I was like yeah you know you've really told him and you've really let him have it and you've represented the community by not coming there and shaking his hand and selling out.

1:01:14It felt so good. Then, about 15 minutes there on his own, and by the way, in the session, he was completely chaperoned at every point. He came back on his own and he was like, yeah, Dean, really good to meet you. I've heard a lot about you and you've done quite well for yourself, haven't you? I was like, yeah. So, you know, you've done a lot of these exits and you're always an equity holder. I was like, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's right. So he said, you know, I listened to everything you said and I was just wondering, what have you done for these communities? Because I know you really care about them.

1:01:41and I was like I was like oh

1:01:45Mo Gilligan: I was like oh no Checkmate Yeah Checkmate So now I'm like bumbling to him like he normally does to to other people and it just sat with me Mo like when I left it actually like really like it burnt me A that he checkmated me in that way and B I was like he's actually got a point do you know what I mean like I'm in a position to do more than I'm doing and I ought to and that's what started full family group i was like we actually okay we need to build something that is a little bit sustainable that can do work at scale and my guiding premise was i've learned so much i've got such a big network and i'm able to i should put all of that to some use for others and i'm not saying it like cures poverty in the uk or solves hunger or anything like that but it is doing some good work for some group of people

1:02:39in a meaningful way. So I am proud of it in that sense. And also using it as a platform to call out others to do their bit too. You have to do your... You've got to be making sure

1:02:49Mo Gilligan: you're doing yours before you can... You can't be pointing at people like he did to me. Well, what have you done? And I've got nothing. So I'm trying to make sure my foundation is there and then we can engage with others. And what is the stuff that you... Because I know the stuff because I remember going to the dinner, but for anyone listening what are some of those things because i know you work with young entrepreneurs as well um you know and disadvantaged people in different areas what are some of those things that you're trying to make an impact with that people not so much people can see but they can be like oh wow like oh like i'm really interested in this and i'd like to get maybe involved or how they can help or you know and even have an idea and just be able to to pitch because I could imagine you're someone whose time is so precious you must get people being like, I've got the next best thing.

1:03:39Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Forbes family group, I've heard about it. Listen, I'm a young entrepreneur. I'm chasing you through Brixton. So we focus on the three Cs. We say it's capital, it's community and it's connection. So capital is about us investing in young entrepreneurs and businesses, typically underrepresented founders because they get less than 1 % of investment capital that's available. So we invest our own money and we bring other people to the table to invest in those businesses as well. Connection is the other because I've benefited from just building an amazing network of people. Like there's most prominent people in the country one or two phone calls away from.

1:04:20So it's about kind of bringing that network to be of use to others in different structured ways, whether that's networking events, whether that's professional development competitions, whether that's mentorship. We try and bring a network of people around, people who are trying to get to the next level in their career. And then community is really charity. So we pick two charities a year that we want to support. We give money to those charities, but we do a bunch of initiatives to raise money for those charities. And we were together at Power of the Fight, which was one of our partners that we worked with to try and raise money.

1:04:53raise money so it's capital community and connections because i know you do some after school programs as well yeah we opened a bunch of um yeah after school clubs because i i love those

1:05:04Mo Gilligan: when i was when i was younger and i know you've done some stuff with the aclt as well yeah that was one of our charity partners had a big big gala for them raising nearly half a million pounds to to help that that's the kind of stuff we love yeah yeah we loved it and that's a good example where we're able to get the network. Like, we didn't raise that on our own. We had sponsored run clubs. We had sponsored wellness retreats. We had a lot of great celebrities come out and support us in fundraising. So it's about bringing that phone book, putting that phone book to good use. And you must have such an interest in phone book now because you're in a space where, you know, you was ranked number one as the most influential black Briton, which, you know, on the power list, which again, I don't know much about this list.

1:05:53Mo Gilligan: And I'll be honest, when you was on it, I was like, oh, right, Dean's on it. I know Dean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a few other people that I knew on there, but they're people that are in places of business that I, for someone like myself, I don't know of these people. But, you know, with you being on that list and then, you know, I feel like you're in an interesting space whether, you know, you're in the boardroom speaking to people of business, but then you can be on you know grm daily or link up tv and you know they put your clip up there so you have this really interesting position of a lot of young people that don't understand business but you are their entry point and then you're also the play the person where you're like yeah like i you know the people you must have in your phone book are like oh like you could make a change to this thing would you like to come to this event and you've got people in a room who would never cross paths it's a really unique position that you've been able to put yourself in so what must that have been like being the number one did it feel like pressure did you know about it well I was number two the two years before so I was a mix of like happy but annoyed being number two like the number one number two two years in a row it was it was an amazing amazing thing because I know a lot of people on the list I've looked up to a lot of people on that list a lot of people on the list have helped me um so it was a incredible feeling to be like names number one uh number one on that list but what you said about my phone book is something I'm quite proud of um and it comes back to being more known and more and more public because the intention of that was to I guess expose to people you know in some meaningful way try to expose to people that when we think about achieving on the corporate lane when we're entertainers often we can retain who we really are like we can actually we can build a career around who we really who we really are and your authenticity as an entertainer is something i like absolutely love as a sports person we can often retain that too because as long as we're scoring the goals or knocking the opponent out we can listen to what music we like we can dress the way but in the corporate world it's generally understood that you're going to have to conform to the rules of hsbc or morgan stanley or google in order to become successful so when becoming more public one of the things i wanted to try to show was that i did manage to navigate to this point without giving up my soul like i didn't have to sell sell my soul to get to this point it's true along the way i made adjustments it's true along the way I had to be a little quieter or you know put a tie on when maybe I wouldn't have wanted to put a tie and that's true but I did get to this place and I haven't sold my soul and I do listen to the music I listen to I do eat the food I eat I do have the friends I do socialize in the way that and I'm still credible in the in the in the corporate world and that's how the phone book's been built right yeah that's how the phone book's been built because I haven't had to put down um my some of my friends that I've grown up with and I've made new friends who are running some of the biggest companies and biggest brands in the country and in the and in the world and i'd like to think for some of those people i've educated them on what south london people they don't need to fear us yeah yeah yeah we're all right yeah yeah i was on a i was on a i was on a corporate call yesterday we're trying to acquire a business quite a big company we're trying to acquire and the person we need to get to said, yeah, I'll have dinner with Dean because he seems like the kind of guy I would like to know and I would like my friends to know that I know.

1:09:46So I'm going to get this meeting because this guy thinks I'm cool. And he definitely thinks I'm cool on this side. He doesn't think I'm corporate cool. He thinks I'm cool because I know you and because I know Idris. That's why he really wants to. Yeah, yeah. So it's helpful.

1:10:00Mo Gilligan: Does that play a big part in your world? because I guess when it's like, one, it's tech and the whole CEO type business thing. Cool is I feel like a currency that you just can't buy. You can wear the best clothes and get the best tailors or whatever it is. But if you don't feel like, okay, cool, I've got this suit on. And yes, it's an Oswald. But yeah, when you see it, you see me and then you see the suit second, if that makes sense. How important is cool in your world? Because I think you're a very cool person. like when we was in LA I was like Rod Deans he's like I want to demand him like and that's me in a position where like I'm not in the corporate world so I could imagine like you're saying you know getting that meeting because of the cool factor how important I won't say how important is it but is it like almost like a currency that's worth weight in itself it's weight in gold if you know what I mean I would have to I would have to admit that I'm cool to say that.

1:11:02No, I think it does help. And at this level, like a lot of business does get done with a high element of social interactions, right? We know what the company does. We know what it's worth. Do we want to pay for it or not? Can we raise the money? Like there's, of course, all of the deal elements. But you definitely engineer favor if you've got some kind of personal connection. I think in business in general, but definitely in my world. So if you've got levers to create that social connection, then you're you know you're at an advantage if you've got a lever because you can get into a place that no one else can get into if you've got access to people no one else can get in or you're viewed as a cool person like these are all advantages and definitely now definitely now it's it's a currency it's definitely an advantage for me because I always hear these rumours

1:11:48Mo Gilligan: of like oh you know when it comes to like deals are done at like at the table like having a meal and stuff like this or you know getting a client and be like we're going to go to an Arsenal game and we have a box and the player might come and say hello. I've heard a lot of these deals happen at not places you wouldn't expect, but it's just like, yeah, man, he's invited me to Jamiroquai or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So we sold Fortiro, where I'm still CEO, to Partners Group, which is a big private equity firm, Swiss private equity firm. And in the week the deal was supposed to get done, we had two people who were bidding on the company, right?

1:12:31Partners Group and someone else. And we're supposed to sign the deal on Thursday. And on Tuesday, the leader at Partners Group insisted that I fly to Switzerland and spend the day with him. He's like, I'm not doing this deal unless Dean comes here and I spend the day with him. And I want to go through this, I want to go through this, I want to go through this. And I'm going, I'm not going to Switzerland because I need to stay here to get the deal done. So he insisted. So in the end, decided to go, me and the CFO went. and we did all this prep. We prepped our business plan, our cash flow models.

1:13:01We had all this data ready to go through it with the top guy. I think Partners Group is 146 billion euros assets under Manitrax. It's huge, right? And this is the top guy we're going to meet. So we're ready. Everything's prepared. Every data point you could possibly imagine. So we get there and he puts me and the CFO in separate cars. So I'm with him and I get in the car with him. He's going, so I heard you used to be a footballer. How did that go? heard your mum was disabled what was that like for you so he knows all of this stuff about me first thing and then i said to him where are we going he says oh i've um i've got an art gallery like it's my own private art gallery i'm going oh man i don't go to art gallery like this guy's 60 i'm envisaging envisaging what this art gallery is going to look like so we get there and the art gallery is the size of a normal tesco so it's huge it's huge and it's the largest collection of Andy Warhol and Basquiat's largest private collection on earth right and it's his it's his art gallery and it's huge and so when we get there and I realise that I'm like oh my god these are the only two artists I know anything about because of Jay-Z yeah the only reason I know about Warhol and Basquiat and I've ever looked into them yeah yeah is because of Jay-Z so I'm going this couldn't have gone better and we're walking around this art gallery and we're talking about the deal and we're talking about what we're going to do and why he wants to buy the company and what he's going to do with me and what my shares are going to look like.

1:14:29We're having this amazing conversation about the deal. And every 15 feet, he goes, oh, this is Warhol's picture of Madonna and Fab Five Freddy. I don't know who this Fab Five... And I'm going, oh, I know who that is. Or this is Flavor Flav, but I'm not sure who... And I'm going, oh, Flavor Flav, he's from public. And we're able to have this conversation now about art.

1:14:47Mo Gilligan: Somehow, because it's Warhol and Basquiat, he's talking to me about Warhol and Basquiat, and I'm telling him who these influential New York figures are. And he owns the art. But we're connected somehow on art and we're connected in social space. And then he goes, do you want to see some cars? And opposite the art gallery underground is his private collection of cars. And as we're going around looking at the cars, he's going, yeah, this is the last road car that Ayrton Senna ever drove. And this is, you know, James Dean's Porsche that I bought from him. It's like this amazing, and we did the deal between the art gallery and the car studio.

1:15:29Like, that's where the deal actually happened. The phone call in the video is just the confirmation that the deal had been signed by everybody. But the negotiating happened in the art gallery and in his car showroom. I was just walking around thinking, don't touch anything. do not trip over and headbutt like 300 million of of course like don't do that

1:15:55Mo Gilligan: so like what does your what does your end look start to look like Dean because now you're in a place where you know you've come from being you know semi-pro footballer to working in tele-sales to working your way up to 250 250 million pound deals 500 million a billion two billion um you know you've set up your your foundation that gives back and helps the community and you're also an active family man you know you get children at 18 and two or 17 you've got this amazing bond with your wife um so what does like and i wouldn't say the end is like you know but how does it how do you start looking towards a time in your career work-wise where you're like kind of might retire 50 60 because you're saying that like you love the work the work is the thing that makes you wake up in the morning like many of us do you know i mean who has a job where you're like i wake up this is what i love doing like me being here today i was excited to do it i have the same routine i go gym i have my coffee do my research and stuff um but like everyone i guess you look at a point where you're like oh i could i could retire at that age and i see the things that people at that age are doing golf collecting cars paintings whatever it is you know what i mean um what do you start to envision your kind of end and a bit of your legacy to be you know i don't know i don't know man because

1:17:42i don't know because i still i'm very very lucky i'm so so fortunate like how this has gone is incredible to me i cannot believe i've worked hard but you're blessed though man

1:17:56Mo Gilligan: I don't think you're lucky. I would say you're someone that's blessed, but also your drive in turning nothing into something is not... I don't feel like you just stumbled into Motorola doing telesales. It was something where you said, I'll do the hard graft because I know what I can get out of it. And to take the person's job who's smashing the phones, and then before you know it, you're like, I'm going to leave to the point where you want me. I just believe that that's someone that's like you've got to drive and you're massively blessed to the point where you know people almost kind of see it was like an icon now in this business world you know that's nice of you to say that's nice to hear it from you of all people as well but I don't know like I still am very blessed we've done extremely well in life we've done well financially I could have retired financially a long time ago but the thing that stops me is not just the drive to work.

1:18:56I still have moments where I can't believe this is my life. I still go into places. And that's my one thing with social media. Like often I think this is so amazing. I want everyone to see this. And then I have to remember, oh, everybody's not going to realize that you mean, you just want to, Dave, you know what I mean? So that's a little bit sad, but I still have a lot of those moments. And I have a tough time with the retirement thing. I don't think my life can continue at this intensity but I have a tough time with it because I think you would have killed at 21 for these opportunities you would have killed at 22 to have this choice

1:19:33Mo Gilligan: so how can you you might think I want a bit of a break and then somebody says do you want to do 10 nights at the garden Madison Square Garden and we guarantee it's going to be sold out do you think you could say no to that you're doing it aren't you you're doing it me and me I'll be like let's just do 15 we might as well do you know what I mean to think where where you've come from and how you've built your career and you've had so many amazing successes if you had an opportunity for the next category above whatever that looks like above where you've worked I find it hard just because of where I've come from to go I don't know man like maybe enough's enough I feel like a I feel like a striker who has been scoring in 30 goals a season in non-league and I've got to 35 and someone's gone, oh, do you want to go to Arsenal now?

1:20:23You go, oh, look, I'm a bit old now and I'm not as quick as I used to. I think you just go,

1:20:28Mo Gilligan: yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So I don't know. I know the intensity can't continue just physically. I'm a bit older. I don't think about legacy because I just love when people come up to me and say I tried this because I learned about you or I asked for equity because I heard you asked for it or I applied for that job because I heard about it, that's enough for me. The fact that one or two people may have had a bit more courage or a bit more gusto to do something, that's enough. And at some point I'll figure out. I'll figure out the rest. Dean, man, it's been a pleasure to have you on the pod, man.

1:21:09Mo Gilligan: I know we've gone over a little bit but again, I really appreciate one you just come in here um because i know like again this is you know you work nine to five this is within your your working time there could be a deal happening right now on this phone but no i think you're a huge inspiration i think to one myself but also to our community in a sense of you know like we we know the people that are some of the front-facing people of of entertainment or sometimes tech or technology. Like we know those people in our community, but also we don't know the people behind the scenes sometimes. And I think, you know, it always struck me that time we met in LA and it was like, it was a big deal to take this public.

1:21:57Mo Gilligan: And I sat there and that was the thing that I left with when I met you and I was just like, rah. To think someone had to think of that where most of the time, like we like the limelight. Do you know what I mean? like there's a reason why I went to Stone Island to get every color of the track suit because I need you to see me in the peach and tomorrow in the mint do you know what I mean like because I know I like that limelight I'd be lying if I said I didn't um but I also know that what can come with the limelight is there is a shadow and that there is someone who wants to dim that light do you know what I mean so it's that it's the balance it faces but you know just seeing like the moves that you make and how you know like you're in a position now where there's there's young boys and girls out there that are like oh wow like i don't know much about business but i've learned that i can ask like you said there's equity that's something that there's going to be kids in school and they're like oh rala i heard then you can get you can get equity and they might try at a low level where they're just like cool sign up a company own this much you own that much we're selling donuts right and this is our little thing do you know i mean but but that's good enough man if that's what happens yeah yeah it's so vital that you are not gatekeeping those secrets because i feel like those are the things that make people say i can do this do you know what i mean so um honestly it's such a pleasure one to have you thank you for having me man and this has been your beginning middle and end thank you very much bro appreciate you man thank you Thank you, bro.

1:23:31Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes into making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate it if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated. And we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.