Michelle De Swarte from Modelling to Comedy and Everything In Between

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up, people? My name is Mo Gilligan, and this is my podcast beginning, middle and end. Now, my guest this week is a comedian, actor, writer and former model. That's right. You'll know her for her brutally honest stand up and her work on shows like The Baby. She's got a sharp take on class identity and modern life and a career path that has been anything but predictable. from humble beginnings in southwest London, Brixton, to moving all the way to New York and starting stand-up comedy. Please welcome to the podcast, the fabulous, Michel Desuart. How have you been otherwise? Good, you know.

0:41Mo Gilligan: Because I feel like you do a lot of stuff.

0:42Michelle De Swarte: Yeah, I try and keep, like, busy. Let me give my hair a little zhuzh, because you know the tube is tubing, isn't it?

0:48Mo Gilligan: Do you get compliments with your hair when you're on the tube?

0:51Michelle De Swarte: No, sometimes, you know what I mean? it would just be someone being like cool afro like do you know you know what i mean it's like like it's a gimmick you know what i mean wow love your hair and if you've got like a head wrap on it's cool oh i love your turban yeah you know just like you know i love your head stress yeah yeah but yeah so life other than you know working is is all right when i watched

1:26Mo Gilligan: you on graham norton show i didn't know you was a model i never knew that oh like i never knew that was like your yeah like that's what you started off doing yeah that's a mad transition though from like that because i feel like most people sometimes normally stay in that industry or they kind of branch out into other stuff from just from people i've met and know yeah what was it like those early days because was you living in milan oh no you went to milan that's where you

1:51Michelle De Swarte: done the show yeah yeah well you do fashion week season so every season you'll go like you know you'll start in like new york go london if you have to and then you'll go milan paris but no i never lived there i lived in new york that's where i lived yeah and i lived there for like on 19 years for like a couple of years out yeah

2:12Mo Gilligan: what's those early years like because we're talking this is like the kind of noughties right yeah I moved out in 2000 yeah yeah yeah what was it like them times you know what

2:21Michelle De Swarte: it was fucking great you know is it I'll be honest with you right like so I think I'm one of them I'm the last generation to probably grow up in their teens without social media right because I'm 45 so that's and just turned 45 so I'm like that last generation where we had if someone didn't have a mobile phone, it wasn't a weird thing. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, if anything, it was a rarity for someone to have a mobile phone. I remember that back in the day, yeah. So all of that was undocumented, thank God. And then the early noughties, being in New York with like, you know, at that time, if you cast your mind back, it's like, you know, Destiny's Child was still a group.

3:04Michelle De Swarte: Kanye was relatively sane. You know what I mean? Paris Hilton was like a reality star. Britney was a big... Do you know, like, it was almost like the last of them times. We didn't know it, but, you know, there was a sort of recklessness to it all. Yeah. And I think getting, you know, sort of catapulted into modelling, you just had, like, money and privilege and from nowhere, do you know what I mean? From, like, you know, working in a retail shop or pulling pints and then all of a sudden it was like, yeah, you can go to the club, you don't have to pay for drinks. It seemed like a madness. And that's probably why I was able to transition from that into comedy because I knew it wasn't real.

3:49Michelle De Swarte: Like there was no point of me modelling where I was like, Amida, yeah. Like I was like, this is not real. This is not based on anything. Now that doesn't mean that when it kind of ended, there wasn't elements that I missed about it. because you don't realise you are being treated in a world that isn't fair. You know, like things are easier for you. Everything's going your way. You know what I mean? So you sort of, but you know it's not real. Yeah. Like it's just not, you know, you know, this too shall pass. This isn't going to last. This is like winning the lottery. My life was so vastly different before I started modelling and I knew it was all based on aesthetics and also the fashion of those aesthetics, right?

4:30Michelle De Swarte: So like, you know, you'll see someone who's like drop-deck gorgeous but maybe that look isn't in this season and then next season it is. So you just, it was so fickle.

4:39Mo Gilligan: I've never thought of that, of an industry like modelling. Like, I do understand it from the outside, but knowing your perspective of it, what it's like in the inside of knowing that you're like, this is going to end and I know it's going to end rather than I feel like, I think the perception I might have had of like, oh, like you're young and you're living in the moment but it's i guess it's looking at like uh especially if you're saying it's like the early 2000s and you look at like a kate moss who at the time was you know if i think of like kate moss and like noemi campbell and you see like where they are now when they still do campaigns but knowing that like what you're saying when you're like yeah this is this is it's like a the best way to probably summarize it is it's a vibe do you know think Think about it like footballers, yeah?

5:32Michelle De Swarte: So Kate or any sport, Kate Moss and Naomi Campbell, that's the Michael Jordan. Do you know what I mean? You've got all these other sports people that don't go anywhere or they make their money and then they lose it. So we know them and they've stood the test of time because it's Naomi Campbell. It's Kate Moss. They're like the rarities. They are. The unicorns is what they call them. Absolutely the rarities. So for the rest of us, it was sort of like, And this was at a time where people, you couldn't capitalise on modelling in a way that you can now with social media where you can be like, this is my following and I'm going to transfer this over to cooking or lifestyle or interior design.

6:14Michelle De Swarte: Then it was just like, boy, best you marry someone old and rich now. Yeah. And hope they like active sports. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And try your luck that way. you know there wasn't much like you it wasn't you yeah there wasn't many avenues that you could like funnel it down oh that branched off from it and it's interesting you said that like while you was

6:39Mo Gilligan: in new york that you like it was like a changing of a time where i guess it's like of the kind of dot-com generation you got like the internet social media mobile phones i always feel like with America it's very normal to be like yeah like we just me Leonardo DiCaprio and Red Tete we just chill man we've got vibing sessions and you're like that stuff like when I hear stories it's very normal back then and in America to this day what was it like back in those days where do you have those stories of people that who was people that you used to chill with then back then

7:13Michelle De Swarte: not even chill but like you would just go out to clubs and there would just be everyone from you know from your sort of your cultural like diaspora all the things that you're into would be there. So you go to a club like, yeah, Jay-Z is on the other table. You go to another club, you're like, oh, yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio is there, Lindsay Lohan's there. You know, but we were so, because you're sort of treated like a, sort of, models were kind of treated like celebrities in New York back then because it wasn't an acting city. It wasn't like California. You know what I mean, where there's actors.

7:45Michelle De Swarte: But I remember me and my mates going out to some club, and we was in there and Mr. Big from Sex and the City was there and we were like, oh no, man, we got to go, man. Mr. Big said this is dead. Do you know what I mean? Oh no, it's over. It's time to leave. You know what I'm saying? We're like, oh, Paris Hilton's like, oh no, this is cheesy. We got to go.

8:09Mo Gilligan: Don't know who we thought we was. You know what I mean? And he was there for 19 years. Yeah. What made you stay for so long? Because I feel like sometimes with the States, it's definitely like a i'll try it for like five come back home was you like going back and forth or was that like predominantly where you was at that's where i was based but i was going back and

8:26Michelle De Swarte: forth a lot and i say 19 years like in total but i spent a couple of those years in la i came back here when i first started comedy um for about two years or like just under and then i went back so um yeah it was like i definitely thought i was gonna when i first moved out there i didn't love it but after a while i was like well this is where my friends are and this is you know this is where my community is yeah so yeah i thought i was gonna stay but you know such is like you always end up back home in it don't matter what you think it's so true you know you end up back home everyone i

9:00Mo Gilligan: speak to when they're out there they always have like a like i like it but i just i just miss it and i think like it's very rare that i meet someone who's like nah i'm i'm here this is home do you know what I mean? But also I think it's a British thing to say that out loud as well to not feel like because I remember meeting someone once and they grew up in South London and they've just done really well for themselves and I remember saying I'm like oh like you grew up in South and I was like oh do you ever go back to South? He's like nah nah I don't go back to South Really? But I was shocked Yeah I was like like what?

9:38Mo Gilligan: That for me felt so alien and I was like so where do you live now? So yeah, I live like Chelsea and stuff and yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like,

9:47Michelle De Swarte: did you tell them that South? Nah, don't let them know. But you know, in my head,

9:50Mo Gilligan: I'm like, you know, you're still South. I think it's that thing where sometimes is one thing that Brits hate is when we meet people that feel like they've lost a sense of self from, like when we know we're like, I know where you're from from and the fact that you've detached that is almost like, oh, rah, like you're just, like, you just, you just like nah you it was i was so shocked and i've never met anyone that's been so like me so nah nah i don't go back there now my grandma's there but go back oh hell no i was like

10:23Michelle De Swarte: oh right boy do you do you think though just like culturally it's like as brits we don't we have a little bit of a problem with people changing and i wonder if it's to do with our class system like the way the class system's set up yeah it's like it can only really exist like that if you really identify with the station you was brought up in there's nothing wrong with that but i just think culturally we are a little bit like you change like we'll hold that against you we hold change against you even if you're doing well and you're not troubling no one in your mind in your business we're like wow you really rate yourself in it like you really yeah like you

11:01Mo Gilligan: really you really think you're too good now i think i think it's interesting because i always feel like when there are people that do well for themselves what then happens is it goes from like oh you are relatable because I know where you're from you sound like me you dress like me but now you're in a place that for me on the outside doesn't look like it's somewhere that I can see myself in in my career in my space so even if someone is a builder and the favorite person they listen to is a rapper and this rapper has gone on to i don't know worldwide success that builder can't see himself being like i can be the person that can be a property developer that is in an international he just would see himself as like oh well i'll listen to you but now you're there mate i can't relate to you if that makes sense and i think it's that thing of when you grew up in like a council estate environment everyone has the same so everyone's house has the same central heating same radiators and i think if you grow up in an environment where you know you all have the same and someone has other it can become a ah okay what so what you want to knock through the walls you can't just have the the two bed why you gotta have an open plan and i think that's where it comes from because i know you grew up on a council estate as well isn't it?

12:24Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Where did you grow up and what state was it?

12:26Michelle De Swarte: I grew up on a few different estates because I moved around quite a bit. So one in South Bermondsey for a little while. Actually Tabard Estate.

12:36Mo Gilligan: You grew up in Tabard?

12:37Michelle De Swarte: Yeah, Tabard Estate for a few years and then Mantle Gardens in Streatham for a few years. And then like various different places and then ended up in a block of flats on Aker Lane.

12:55Mo Gilligan: Oh, rah.

12:56Michelle De Swarte: Yeah.

12:57Mo Gilligan: That's some estates right there, you know?

12:59Michelle De Swarte: Yeah. Yeah, but you know like Peabody estates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So like, kind of mellow, not like super, you know how Peabody's are. Do you know what I mean? They've always got a bit of greenery. I remember laughing with a friend of mine and, because I'd lived in New York, I remember when I first lived there sort of trying to explain to people, like, no, well, I live in a project block. I'm from, you don't think I'm, you don't think I'm, I'm an idiot. I'm from my project block. And then I remember going back to my old estate and it was like a really sunny day. Yeah. And like all the kids were playing out.

13:32You know, like it looked like something from a Disney film.

13:37Michelle De Swarte: And I was like, you really need to let go of this narrative that you're trying to push to, like your American friends. A project of sorts. Do you know what I'm saying? Because actually when I walked through, and of course it's spicy and shit like that as you're growing up. But yeah, to walk through, I was like, this looks kind of magical. on a sunny day you know like when you think about being a kid it's always the summer holidays the sun's always shining I sort of like walked through this estate and I was like

14:00Mo Gilligan: yeah shut up really I think that's always the positive memories of the estate is the six weeks holiday because I feel like that's when like the reset happens the kids are playing out there's no real drama it does kick off sometimes you know when it's too hot and there's a fight and it kicks off

14:16Michelle De Swarte: there's like a moment when you're a kid I think things get really tricky when you hit your teens you know what I mean that's when you have to navigate your sort of like this, you know, man child or woman child. And you're sort of like, wait, who's? Oh, I don't have any older siblings that are going to mash anyone up. Like, what the hell? Wow. Like, how do I... I've got to fight. Yeah, I'm being called to action. I've changed my mind. But you know, yeah, when you're a kid, it's so like, knock down ginger and you know... Was you a funny kid? Was you funny? I think I... Like to an extent, yeah. But I was also just quite an aggy kid as well.

14:55Michelle De Swarte: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know you're defensive, innit? And you don't have the things that maybe you want to have. And so you find ways of like cussing with humour. But really it's like deflection, innit? Because you feel shame.

15:07Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Shut up, man. Yeah. Dickhead, man. Right? Who are you talking to? I'm talking to you. What? Come over and say that. I understand. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry. So when you're in New York and you're modelling, what was the switch of I want to get into this thing of stand-up? What was that light bulb moment? You know what? I ended up getting this job, like a TV presenting job,

15:34Michelle De Swarte: just off the back of modelling. And it was called The Fashion Show and it was on ITV2 and it was with Abby Clancy and Georgia Lamb, right? Oh, wow. This must have been like 2006, 2007. And I remember getting that job. I had no business getting it. The job was here and I was living out there. And I got it and I was sort of like, is this... And I don't have any GCSEs or anything like that. And so I was sort of like... And before modelling, I'd done, you know, loads of just regular... Like when I first left school, but I was in year nine, I was working in Bagel King. And then I worked in Depth of Market.

16:05Michelle De Swarte: You worked in Bagel King?

16:05Mo Gilligan: I worked in Bagel King, man. I've never met any black people working in Bagel King, you know? Why do you call it Bagel King, you know? No, I couldn't even get a word out. Hold on. Wait. I've never met anyone who's...

16:16Michelle De Swarte: Because this is open 24 hours. Yeah, but this is when it first opened. Like, it had been open a few years when I went there. Okay. And there was, like, there was a bag of us. Is it? Yeah, yeah. Oh, rah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sweet there. You weren't that bagel kid. You know what? Shut your mouth. I don't like the way you keep repeating it.

16:34Mo Gilligan: But I went there. No, but, like, that in... Obviously, in South London, that's, like, a historic landmark. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But, like, I don't think... You know, like, when people say they've worked, them out behind the pub retail boom boom boom but that that's like historic curveball in it

16:48Michelle De Swarte: yeah yeah yeah yeah there's so much questions i know i listen i can answer them as well but um yeah so i worked in a few i worked in sega world in trocodyro and that was a thing you might be too young to remember that but yeah yeah so i went there i worked in you know all these different shoe shops whatever shit like shelly shoe shops and that was a thing i worked in a bunch of pubs in Brixton and Clapham. Anyway, so, yeah, so then, so then I start modelling and I was just always like, what am I going to do after this? Like, I don't have any qualification. Like, what's next? So I do that presenting job and they would have this person who would warm up the crowd and it was a comedian and I didn't even watch comedy.

17:32Michelle De Swarte: I hadn't seen comedy live. Obviously, I'd see stuff that I'd come and tell you like Chris Rock or whatever. Yeah. But I wasn't like, thought that like I can do that and I used to watch this person warming up the crowd and I hated this presenting job so much I was like this is dumb this is like so do you know what I mean like it was just so vacuous and silly and I just was like this is this is like modeling but with autocue meanwhile I'm dyslexic so I really ain't got no business reading autocue without them putting some different colors on it and you know so um so yeah phonetically yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly can someone say it and I repeat can that work so anyway so I'd watch this comedian warming up the crowds and I just I let that swirl in my mind for a little while I was like I'm going to try that and then I went back to New York and I think maybe like at 30 that's when I was like okay let me give it a try what's comedy like in New York I think it's a great place to start I'm really happy that that's where I started my career because there's no money involved so which is not a great thing but what it means is that you're doing it because you want to do it and you can say what the fuck you want and there's no pressure to like oh I gotta get my set perfect because this promoter's watching because they're gonna pay me it's like you're just working stuff out and you're finding your voice and you've got a nice community of comics and you can do multiple gigs in a night yeah and so there's like a lot of just like a lot of support and cussing as well but it's all very like you gotta be in it to win it you know what I mean you bomb up one gig you walk across the road you do another one so for me it was a great place to start and also the references that I would have used if I was here I couldn't use that much out there because it didn't really and also back then this is like before certain shows had come out and stuff if you had an English accent people just presume you were posh even if you tried to tell them like I'm from the project like they don't care they're like shut up I think

19:27Mo Gilligan: definitely now with the rise of social media or streaming platforms there is more of an idea of like this is what this place is like yeah whereas i know before back in the day it was very much like y 'all y 'all eat crampus right y 'all y 'all y 'all got a bucket and palace and harry potter yeah all of that harry potter so what was the transition like when you came here then to do stand up

19:49Michelle De Swarte: um it was all right actually i actually did well quite quickly and i think within like because i've been doing it a year then i came here got an agent and pretty soon after that i got this like i had like 10 or 5 minutes on tv for this hackney weekender and i can it went well but the jokes were very low hanging fruit jokes what were the jokes i know you know the jokes obviously i All comics know they're bad jokes. I had some shit about being Jewish and Jamaican. I said I was Jamaican. I can't even make eye contact with you when I'm saying it. I swear I had a joke about kosher jerk chicken. I swear even think.

20:34Michelle De Swarte: And you know what's annoying? It lives. It lives. You can't hide from your. That's it. It lives. It's on the internet. Yeah. Sometimes I'd just be lying in bed and I'd be like, Jamaican. That's good. So anyway, after that was on, I just, I knew it in my stomach, Mo. I knew, I was like, you ain't got more than this. You don't have the skill set yet. Like, you haven't done the hours.

20:58Mo Gilligan: Yeah.

20:59Michelle De Swarte: And I knew that it was, I could easily get, I was like, I'm going to make a fool of myself if I don't do the hours because I'm going to be put on these panels because they're at the time. We need to be diverse. And now we're ticking a few boxes. And that's all very well. but you're going to put me next to, I don't know, let's say for instance, like Jimmy Carr and Sean Locke and I'm going to look like a shit comic because I would be. I've only been doing it a year.

21:24Mo Gilligan: Especially like them comics are like Quickfire, Witty,

21:31Michelle De Swarte: Frankie Boyle.

21:32Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? Those guys, they know the show in and out and I feel like the audience know that as well.

21:37Michelle De Swarte: We're in these kind of situations now where there's kind of commissioners and they want to do certain things but it's also like we need the time to make sure that we're match fit as well otherwise it looks like we're doing our people or our gender or whatever a disservice and that's not the case you just put me you put me next to you know david beckham to have a kick about yeah like you know what i mean it's just not like i'm gonna look rubbish yeah so i did kind of know that like i was like i really need to be careful here because i'm gonna burn out real quick like i'm not gonna i'm gonna be on a bunch of different things and I'm gonna look like a shit comic so anyway long story short I'd pitched a TV show that had come on I got cancelled really quickly it was like a little panel show about topical culture and whatever and it was shit so they cancelled it fair and then I went back to New York and I was like I just knew I was like I need to I need to get good at stand-up privately yeah in private was that and that's what New York provided for you yeah I mean to be able to

22:38Mo Gilligan: crack on and do your thing but in a place where you're like i ain't got commissioners coming to my show so i can just do the stuff yeah i've got friends and i still have my visa as well

22:49Michelle De Swarte: so i still have my visa i was just kind of out here and i was like i need i could go back to new york i could still model so i could still make money and i was like and you can just do stand-up in a way that you should be doing it which is like exactly like you're saying in private when no one cares. So that's what happened. And it was a great place for me to be able to do that. And then on top of that, I started doing other stuff. Like I was working for Vice America and doing factual content. So it sort of drifted into other things. But it meant that by the time I moved back here in 2019, it could look, I guess, from the outside like, oh, you just came back and stormed it.

23:31Michelle De Swarte: But I'd had all of them years. I'd had a good nine years of doing stand-up yeah what was the Vice stuff like

23:38Mo Gilligan: because I felt like Vice you know I remember going into the office when they had when it was in Shoreditch in London and that was a place that I always wanted to be like I want to do stuff on Vice because it felt like the coolest stuff that you could see that no one was doing it was like

23:56Michelle De Swarte: very niche for the time you know so like yeah when Jamali was working for Vice america um i was working for vice america as well and doing all kinds of different documentaries some of them silly some of them really hard-hitting and good and um like it was fun and when i say it was fun sometimes it wasn't and it was fucking annoying but like the end result was good i feel

24:17Mo Gilligan: like you you're very self-aware of your career in a sense of you know what it takes to i guess see things through but also push hard because you know the fact that you're saying like as a model you're like well I was modelling and I could see that there was this time span and I needed to get on and do something else because this wouldn't be the thing that I could do forever but also being self-aware to know that I'm on a panel show and the people I'm here these are it's like you're saying the David Beckhams and they are the ones that also like the audience I'm coming for when

24:55Michelle De Swarte: I talk about that it was very hypothetical like I wasn't on that panel show yet but I also had an option to do something else at the same time so yeah I can say that but I think I was in a very fortunate position where I could go I'm gonna go back to America I still got my visa and I'm just gonna do this quietly and I can do these other things and do you know what I mean so I had a bit a space to be philosophical about my career I didn't have any big immediate things happening and also trial and error I think there's something and again that was before social media was doing what it was doing now so I was able to reinvent myself and I think that's something that is kind of missing today it's a shame that everything has to be documented right like you know you're doing things now you're doing things in the beginning of your career that you've just probably grown out of now like you just don't want to do it because you've done it you know and there's that certain there's this sort of trail that follows you around now you don't get to reinvent yourself in the same way anymore and be free from the old thing that you did yeah you know what i mean so i think as well there was like a lot of uh things in my favor at that time to be able to do that did you go to edinburgh yeah what's it what's it been like for you because you know me you've

26:18Mo Gilligan: done it no but i've done a half show edinburgh let me tell you because me and k so when me and k1 we've done a half show and i think what's interesting about doing a half show is that you're in you're in edinburgh but you're on the edge you're not inside does that make sense when

26:35Michelle De Swarte: you say half show do you mean split in an hour or do you do in two weeks so we done two weeks

26:40Mo Gilligan: and i done half an hour k done half an hour okay but it doesn't feel like yes i can say i've done it but i wasn't involved in it i didn't have the pr i didn't have the do you know i mean the nice poster i didn't have the skinny coming to do the reviews i never had any of that and i've done four

26:56Michelle De Swarte: one woman shows i did my last one when i first moved back out in um 2019 and i've never had pr i've been lucky if i've got reviewed but i've done the month right i think well maybe one year i did so I think like the first time I did it in I did it in like 2012 2014 or 2015 I did it in like 2017 and then 2019 and I'd leave New York and I'd come and do the fringe I think the fringe is really important when you're first starting I think there's a lot to learn you're never gonna get you know I do an hour show you're not gonna get 24 hours of stage time in the beginning of your career that is that could take you six months that could take you a year that could take you years if you're doing 10 minutes apart yeah you're trying to get so there's something really important about it i think for black and brown acts and for working class acts the fringe is a fucking bump man it is soul destroying so you kind of got to go up there i mean you can i've done one woman shows up there i would say collectively how many like black and brown people had seen my show maybe a hundred over four one-woman shows over the course of you know that's four different like four different months over a decade yeah yeah but that being said um i think that there's there's a lot to learn i think your why it's important is your meet other comics you'll get to know them you'll find a community of people that you might not normally that might not know you it's more for the getting to know other comics i think it's really important i think having the discipline to do it every day, to go through those emotions where you're like, even going through that everyone's got their reviews, maybe you've only been reviewed once, but it's a shitty review and you've still got to fly for your own gigs.

28:46Michelle De Swarte: And all of that kind of stuff are really important skills to learn for the craft of comedy. If you care about that. Now there's so many different ways to skin a cat, do you know what I mean? But I think there's some really good foundations that you can learn from the fringe. When I chat to young acts and they're like, I'm going fringe, I always say to them, do the free fringe. don't get yourself in debt to go there no no do the free fringe get do a bucket whip round if you've done a good show they'll put money in the bucket you'll leave with money will it all be in

29:14Mo Gilligan: pound coins yeah but don't worry about that no but i think it's it's definitely doing comedy where it feels like you have to you have to work to earn your food do you know what i mean you really do

29:25Michelle De Swarte: and you know what it's not fair i've seen some comics go up there who i know are an exceptional comic and they're not getting a realistic view of their set and all their success and especially black comics yeah like you go up there listen i remember one year me and travis jay were like a couple of doors down from each other and we would just see each other on the street on them little nod little nod and like a little wobble on the bottom lip you could you have any people I'm like three. You had three in. I had 12 into the wow. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so it's, you're not going to get a, but that's good.

30:04Michelle De Swarte: That's good. All of those things are fortifying you. All of these things are important because it's coming with comedy. Even if you're on an upward thing and your success and all of that, it's coming for you. The bomb is coming. You know, like you're going to die on your ass at some point. Things aren't going to go your way. You're going to say a joke. People are going to take it the wrong way. or you're just going to do something people. So you need to be much fit in terms of like, have your ego damaged a few times and still want to persist.

30:32Mo Gilligan: Oh yeah, no, definitely man. I think the amount of times you do stand up as a comic where you go in that role, you're like, everything's just working. Then you have the one and you're like, whoa, what's going on here? Yeah. This isn't, feels abnormal. Mate. And then I don't know about you, but I'll be like, yep, got to go top secret tonight, bro. Hey, straight away. You know what got me?

30:51Michelle De Swarte: Because I'm touring at the moment, right? And so I'd been, you know, you're touring. If people are coming out to see you, you start thinking you're like some comedy genius. Do you know what I mean? You're like, I touched the mic and was laughing, man. Anyway, I got this random gig to do in bloody Melbourne. Yes, I was like, you know, I'll go out. I only stayed for two nights, but the money was good. I was like, cool. I went out. It weren't even in Melbourne. It was like past Melbourne. It was like, I was in valleys and, you know, just kangaroos and all this. I only need to do a 40 minute gig. yeah now meanwhile i'm in between the tour so i'm thinking i'm bad i'm thinking i'm fire yeah well i hit the stage yeah you know like i'm one of them people i'm quite animated on stage and you see the more i start dying the more i get more animated i'm like body popping and you know like i'm not i'm like wait i'm moving a lot here yeah yeah for no laughs i'm doing a lot of active i looked at the time i was like i must have been i knew that i was 20 minutes into my set but I was actually four minutes into that particular set I just hadn't had a laugh so I was like breezing through it and I looked at the time I was like oh no he got 35 minutes to go but I didn't but I and then I just got the plane back but I didn't have that oh let me go top secret I just had a long plane journey like I was just like wow and it hadn't happened for a while because the more the more you become experienced the less you bomb but you know when you just I said I said when you really started feeling yourself and now you've had your ass handed to you you know what's mad

32:27Mo Gilligan: is when you don't have the chance to be like oh I can jump on a gig like next week or I've got another show is when you've got to sit in your piece and sit there and be like was it me was it them was it the microphone it's always you

32:40Michelle De Swarte: it's always you come on man as you've been doing this longer you know it's not healthy don't blame you can blame the audience when you first start whatever it takes to get through it do you know what I mean you know like you can do all of that shit as you start doing this job long enough it don't serve you well to blame the audience there might be little things but you know as a skilled comic you can get them round right oh yeah yeah yeah now if you can't do that then it's you

33:05Mo Gilligan: you know sometimes it is the audience though there is a few gigs where you're like nah man the vibe is off and it's do you know I found it where it's not even you try to find the thing to blame but you know before you go on

33:18Michelle De Swarte: that's what I was going to say

33:20Mo Gilligan: and you're like ah this is these lot aren't here for any comedy they're not here to laugh they're just here to probably eat and I'm like an added bonus do you know what I mean but every time

33:31Michelle De Swarte: that happens to me even that right I've decided before I've gone on there's something my ego's got the better of me I've looked at the audience and I thought I can't be asked to be but like you lot I haven't gone in with the mindset of like my job is to entertain you that's my job right now My job is to try and turn this around and make you laugh. I'm in a headset of like, you look rubbish. And I don't think I should be it. There's a little bit in me and that's like, you're too good to be it. Like something is, I can always trace a bad gig back to something that my brain has done before I've gone on stage.

34:11Michelle De Swarte: And that thing has normally been like, I could be hanging out with my friends. You know what I mean? I mean, like, there's something where my ego's just got the better of me. So, like, I get what you're saying, but I do think that every time that's kind of happened, there's times where I can see that and I think, no, I'm going to try my best and I'm going to go in. And then I've had, like, the best gig and I've looked and thought, oh, you didn't think this was going to go well, did you? But it ended up, so I don't know.

34:37Mo Gilligan: What's been your worst gig? What's the worst gig you've ever had?

34:40Michelle De Swarte: I did a gig. This was a couple of years into my career. and it was it wasn't Jonglers but it was like some it was like Choice FM or some shit like that and Slim was there there was a couple other people there I went out when I say crickets you never forget your worst gig and it was just it was just a room full of people just looking at me like boy but you know what they were they were kind of being supportive to be fair like they were trying but I was giving nothing and then for reasons first of all it was a time when people were still dancing on stage so I've come out on stage and they've been playing these tunes and I'm just stood there like no not me so that was already killing off the vibe so when you say dancing on stage you mean comics coming out yes remember when it was all like all like the death jam vibes you know what I mean I can't even do the candy dance like I'm one of them mixed-faced people but that song will come on and I'll be like, does anybody like a drink, please?

35:46Michelle De Swarte: Go to the bar, go to the bar. Do you know what I mean? If there's a party, I stand up like a 16-year-old boy who smokes weed. I'm like, no, I'll just post up here and move my shoulders a little bit. So anyway, they're bumping out tunes and everyone's like, and I've come out and I'm like, it's like you could hear my trainers squeaking on the floor. Anyway, so I've done my gig. Everyone's just looking at me like, wow, you did that. And then for reasons I still don't understand, I put the mic in and I moonwalked off the stage. What? I don't... Something... The nervousness took my body. What? Hold on, wait.

36:23Michelle De Swarte: Hold on, wait. I kind of went, I kind of went, okay, well, that's that then. And it was like, crickets, crickets, crickets. You moonwalked? And then, and I can't moonwalk. Just so you know that as well. Just so you can picture it. I didn't glide off the stage. I... reversed off the stage on my foot bottom. Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean, walked off stage. Anyway, I come off the woman backstage. She went, how did it go? I went, oh, not good. And she goes, she goes, wait, did they boo you? I went, no. She went, ah, it's not bad then. And I was like, wait, what? So anyway, I come off, I see Slim. And God bless Slim, right?

36:59Michelle De Swarte: Slim looked at me and he went, nah, you know what? I rate you for staying on for the whole set.

37:08Michelle De Swarte: and he took he took my hand and he went keep at it keep at it like I love no but it was such a you know you know the slim burn where he's just like he's not gonna lie to your face

37:20Mo Gilligan: no no no slim will never do that

37:21Michelle De Swarte: he won't lie to your face he'll try it but the encouragement was let me know exactly

37:24Mo Gilligan: what level I was at that's slim man

37:26Michelle De Swarte: yeah I remember some school friends were there they couldn't even look me in the eye and I had another friend there and I said oh should we stay and get drunk she went Michelle we can't stay here we must leave we must leave no she went I said how shall we stay like me and you oh no no no

37:39Mo Gilligan: you gotta go

37:39Michelle De Swarte: no she went no no no

37:40Mo Gilligan: you have to go

37:41Michelle De Swarte: she went no

37:42Mo Gilligan: the only time you can stay is when you know you smashed so you get that kind of oh you're the comic right yeah yeah yeah hey hey man you're funny man but you know what

37:51Michelle De Swarte: sometimes I don't do well on a gig now and I don't care like I'm like I'm just part of my I'm staying if I'm chatting to someone I mean generally you're not really staying after a gig but if I'm chatting to people even if I died oh you know what actually that weren't really dying though I did Kane's gig a couple maybe like six months ago and I just didn't you know you're used to doing well and I was adequate I'd come off stage I said to Kane I was like yeah I kind of need to come back and try and crack on me he went yeah

38:26Michelle De Swarte: there was no slim speech on that one no because Kane knows me do you know what I mean and he knows he knows I'm a capable comic and he can see when they was just like, yeah, yeah. And then we just carried on chatting about whatever we were talking about. But it was like, don't insult me and pretend that it went, I just went, I kind of need to come back and try a crack at me. He was like, yeah, yeah, you do.

38:44Mo Gilligan: Yeah, because that's what I love about Slim. I remember early on where, you know that, you know, it's like you're saying, you know, as a comic, you're like, oh, this wasn't the best one. And you kind of find those comics to reach out for a little bit of advice or feedback. But no, Slim is great for that. He's like, Listen, man, fuck all of them, man. Fuck all of them, man. Because you know what it is, yeah? You're going out there. They just want to drink and do it. Fuck all of them, man. Trust me. Because you know what it is, yeah? Listen, let me tell you something.

39:11Michelle De Swarte: That is such a good... How do you make that... Because why has Slim got a kind of echo in his voice? How do you do that?

39:18Mo Gilligan: I remember doing a gig with Slim in... I think it was Leeds. And he broke his phone. And we both got paid cash. and I was just like chilling with him while he was in Leeds innit and then when you know because we was doing like Leeds Birmingham Manchester so you get a bit of money innit and what not a bit yeah but like obviously he's pissed because he's broke his phone he's got to spend his money buying a new phone innit and I used to work at Apple store at the time innit and then I was just like oh you should get this iPhone he goes he goes mum I don't know about these phones you know bruv I remember you know back in and he would go back in there you have a Nokia last year three weeks bruv Three weeks after, charge it, put it in the tank there.

39:59Mo Gilligan: I don't know what phone I'm buying, man. I'd never forget that moment. But it was also like my moment with a comic. You got your little bit of money, you got to chill. And I've always seen him like one of those elders who was like your kind of uncle, your cool uncle that you can like... I don't smoke, but you can burn a spliff with. Don't tell your mum in it, but just smoke it, man. Yeah, man.

40:21Michelle De Swarte: He's safe and Kane Brown is safe as well. Like really, when I think about starting, nothing creepy about, just really like encouraging, honest, supportive, lovely. And like Slim, I was hosting some gig over the summer. You know, one of them, like I was filming in the day and I forgot I'd said yes to this. And I thought, you know, it's fine a day of filming. I thought I'd just go and do my 20 minutes. I was like, hosting? No, I'm going to be here all night. So Slim comes and he's like, all right, yeah, I'm just doing my BTS stuff. I said, what? He goes, listen, the fans love seeing it, Mish. Forget about the sets and that.

40:57Michelle De Swarte: But his enthusiasm for social media and cultivating his, I'm just going to edit these up. And he's staying after the gig to go, yeah, I've got to film this. And yeah, this tent looks like his own little director of photography there filming this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I, and the amount of time he's been doing it. And now to see him, to see that now, whatever the mainstream circuit is, everyone knowing him on that circuit as well listen Slim's a heavy hitter same with Kane I feel the same about Kane

41:30Mo Gilligan: I always find it funny when like I meet comics especially who are on that mainstream circuit and they speak about someone on like the black circuit and they're like oh my god do you know like Kane Brown wow have you heard him do crowd work I think I gig with him god that guy is like he's like coming out and he's like hey like where are you from and he's like you're like fucking Batman mum. It's like, what? It's like, that's what we do here, isn't it? Yeah,

41:56Michelle De Swarte: yeah, because they don't know, they don't know, but I think you should keep it alive and be like, yeah, you ain't been doing it long, it just came from nowhere, innit? It really like, exploded on the circuit, didn't it?

42:05Mo Gilligan: So you, would you say you started more on the mainstream circuit than the black circuit?

42:10Michelle De Swarte: Yeah, definitely. And also, in New York, there's not, there's not really a difference between the two, do you know what I mean? Like, you're doing,

42:18Mo Gilligan: it's kind of in the same,

42:19Michelle De Swarte: you've gigged out there, it's kind of in the same warehouse so when i came back here i would do both and when i say the hits and misses were in equal measure now not so much to be honest on a black circuit i still do a couple gigs a year same hit and miss but um but yeah not so much but i feel like now we've

42:39Mo Gilligan: merged more we're not it's not like how it was no no it doesn't feel so much event based of like

42:45Michelle De Swarte: this is a black gig this is a mainstream gig even though like terms are a little patronising and annoying when you look at the numbers that anyone that has a let's say traditional you know black circuit following has it's like you know for Slim to come on the mainstream circuit inverted commas he was taking a step down to do that from the following that he had do you know what I mean he could sell out anything so then he's like oh what he's going to come and do 20 minutes at top secret Slim don't take the peers do you know what I'm saying so now I feel like they're more they're just more merged it's not so

43:22Mo Gilligan: I feel like comedy is a lot more broader as well do you know what I mean with social media exactly that good friends with Catherine Ryan as well I would say

43:28Michelle De Swarte: how did that friendship

43:29Mo Gilligan: come about

43:30Michelle De Swarte: me and her have known each other probably from when I moved back here for a little bit in like 2010 and I'm just a big fan of hers man I'm a big she's always been safe she did this thing backstage with Catherine Ryan that was on Amazon she put me on that and then she had me as a tour support as well oh wow it was really like you know if one person could have really and that was a time where I was like I was pushing 40 and I was thinking how was how are you how did this happen yeah yeah yeah man how are you renting a room off your meet and you don't have nothing you know what I mean like I was just sort of like

44:12Mo Gilligan: oh wow yeah yeah yeah now what did you know what i'm saying so she really how did you find it like doing comedy clubs to then doing tour support did you find there was a difference or did you just find it was like turning up and you're like oh there's a crowd here they're here to see someone

44:33Michelle De Swarte: and i'm supporting i was really lucky because katherine is such a skilled comic that she's there's no part of her that's like you where you feel like i better not crush too hard or i better hold back a little bit or i better make sure that you know like i want to be good but i don't want to be oh and likewise if it didn't go well i never felt any way so i was lucky with katherine

44:55Mo Gilligan: that she was very like go smash it yeah like go and she would you know she would give me a nice

45:02Michelle De Swarte: intro and she would just she was really like go do your best and it's likewise if i you know every now and again you die in it she'll just be like whatever they'll come and be like oh Catherine I'm not sure and she'll be like it's fine don't worry about it you know Catherine she's consistent but sometimes there's not a lot of range in it she'll just be like yeah it's fine and you're like wait is it though so I was really lucky and it's quite interesting because now I'm on tour I've got about a rotation of like let's say five or six different comics that are all in sort of the early stages of their career and because Catherine sort of showed me the way how to act up, you know what I mean?

45:44Michelle De Swarte: So now I do the same. I always want them to do well. I'm doing smaller rooms, so I always go out onto the stage and introduce the comic because I want the audience to pay attention. Like, this person's not getting loads of money. They're in the beginning of their career. The best way you can support them is to follow them on social media and while they're coming out here, pay attention. This is not like, I'm just going to talk and wait for Michelle. No, no, no, no. pay attention you're seeing someone in their early stages and yeah so her being like that with me sort of meant like I was shown a code of conduct and a way to you know best support a comic coming up

46:24Mo Gilligan: it's so interesting because whenever I get comics to support I'm always I understand for them they're always a bit like ah but the room ain't full yet not everyone's listening but I try my best to even like we lock off the bar so the bar will open up when we get to a break but after that when the comic's on we lock off the bar but also knowing the mindset of a comic who's supporting where you know I'm like listen we've got another show tomorrow don't worry about it and you're going to have your one there's always going to be one show in this tour that's going to give you your fucking hell that was really nice because I feel like as a comic a lot of comics don't understand the difference of doing the clubs in a 20 and doing the 20 as a tour support where at the clubs it's like a came in for a couple drinks see who he's on might get ricky gervais might pop in but i don't know i'm just here to see what the vibes are with my mate or i'm on a date whereas i think support is different because they're there to see comedy yes they might be turning up to see a person but they're like if you're introducing us to this person and i like your comedy i believe this person who you're bringing me to yes of course so so so vital man yeah and also like i

47:42Michelle De Swarte: always say to like the acts that support me i'm like listen you're siphon off you know i mean like i know my audience my audience is around my age i'm like you're siphon any young person is you're for them you know like you're talking about things that i'm not talking about and you're siphoning off your own audience from this audience so yeah yeah going with that mind you'll get take take some of these people because they'll support you yeah and katherine was like that with me and you know i've got a lot of you know before i had someone like helping me with social media and stuff like that um i was taking a lot of her audience for my smaller shows yeah yeah you know

48:23Mo Gilligan: how do you find social media terrible yeah yeah i don't i don't i don't love it i don't enjoy it

48:28Michelle De Swarte: It gives me anxiety. Sometimes I just think, is it worth it? And luckily, I was able to pay another comic who's newer and fresher and understands social media, Sam Peconi, to do my videos. And so sometimes, if I'm trying to sell a tour, he clips up my stuff and pops it out. He understands it. I'm dyslexic. Not to say that that's part of it, but like one I don't care two I used to model I kind of scratch that itch of like seeing myself and getting the admiration for I sort of done it um and also I just don't it just doesn't it kind of really stifles my creativity I find it really like I start engaging with it and then I'm just worried if like oh I hope I was what shall I write a caption and then I'll write it and delete it and right and I just think you dickhead just fucking post it no one cares yeah yeah but I really get in my head about it and it just it it stifles my creativity it stops me being able to do long-form thinking because I keep on checking this nonsense do you know what I'm saying so I find it uh when you say checking nonsense is that I start I start going for the instant gratification of it and engaging oh did someone comment have I got more views on this how's those views going so if someone else does it for me I don't have to be so engaged I'm not loading it on I'm not doing all of that but the second I start getting into that I really doesn't it really distracts me and it starts to like eat up my ego and make me insecure and I start getting a bit like not in a you know free form you know I'm a big woman like but I just know that it's one of them things that when I start digging into it it actually doesn't have a great effect on my um well-being yeah and you say it's

50:19Mo Gilligan: overwhelming is that also the like the dyslexia as well when it comes to it yeah sort of

50:26Michelle De Swarte: understanding i should be engaging with it and i think overwhelming is in like there's so many people i see that are so they find it so easy it's like really natural for them and i know that i can't do that. Yeah. Now I accept it and I, but there was a time where I felt like, oh, I should be capitalising on this and I should be making money and TikTok and like I was on Graham Norton like a month ago. I haven't posted it on my grid because, do you think I know how? Like every time I think, I just think, you know what? I'd just rather not do it then. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, You know what I mean?

51:09Michelle De Swarte: You know that right now it's VAT time, isn't it? You know sometimes they're like, give us your receipts and you think, I'd pay that money just not have to fucking deal with this. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, so boring, isn't it? I'll pay the money. I don't care. Just charge me. I don't want to do this mindless admin. I'm not made for that. I'm made for other things.

51:27Mo Gilligan: It's a copy. It's a copy. You know how it's called?

51:32Michelle De Swarte: Don't worry about it.

51:34Mo Gilligan: I don't care. Charge it to the game.

51:36Michelle De Swarte: You know what I'm saying? I'm like, listen, you've got it takes money to make money, innit? It all evens out in the end. I'll be thinking shit like, I just need a humble four million and then I'm fine. So I'm just doing this high little pound here, 50p now, 20 pounds, how did you spend some of that for work? Ah, fuck, have it. I don't care. I ain't got a mind for this shit, man. So that's how I feel with social media. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I should have done that at the time. Took a picture of the receipt, innit? Do you know what I mean?

52:07Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In where?

52:09Michelle De Swarte: The other pictures. Do you know what I mean?

52:12Mo Gilligan: You've got to type in receipts in your phone and then you've got to send them.

52:15Michelle De Swarte: As soon as you start telling me, I'm like, I don't care. Shut up.

52:19Mo Gilligan: Just pay it. It's fine, you know. It's an Uber. Slightly, I wanted to get it. Maybe I didn't need it for work. It was for leisure. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man.

52:27Michelle De Swarte: Yeah. So, yeah, that's for me, social media. I really get in my head about it. Like, I'm like, I should post this thing. And then my friends would be like, why haven't you posted that thing? I'm like, I don't know. I guess she probably is quite timely isn't it so because you run out of time

52:40Mo Gilligan: as well isn't it because then are you in it sometimes you think ah but that happened so long ago now yeah does it feel relevant I'm begging yeah yeah yeah yeah

52:49Michelle De Swarte: but literally I've got my friend Ashley's story staying with me at the moment and I said before I left I went Ashley you know when you come back later could you help me to can I post that Graham Norton thing and she went you haven't done it and I said no and she went did they give you the clips and I was like well Well, it's probably in, yeah, probably someone. She was like, do you want me to just do it for you? I was like, that's exactly what I want you to do. I don't want to learn. I'm not here to learn. Can you take pity on me? And could you please do it for me? Thank you.

53:20Mo Gilligan: So when it comes to, you see, like, because you've also written your own stuff as well. Yeah. How do you find then the writing of it? Because I feel like I'm dyslexic. So when it comes to, I can write for me. so if I know I need to write this and write this as a tour yeah just give me the work in progress shows and so if I know I'm writing to something fine if I don't have the shows I can't write the special I tried this whole I went to New York for a week I was sat in Central Park and had a coffee and I was like day one of writing nothing came to me but if I know I've got something to write to it works but also writing for me is very easy because I know the stuff when I'm writing from a place of like I write script and character and scene I love it yeah

54:07Michelle De Swarte: because it's an imagination world like I started after my show I started doing writers rooms because I didn't have a writing team or anything for my show but like I love writing on other shows like I find it really like I had like I did punch ups for Dreaming Whilst Black and it was like so good to just like get the season I'm like I get this I can make this funnier you know what I mean and the same way if I do writers rooms for different things I'm like, I get it. And I can also write for other comics. I get that. I know their voice. And if I'm writing characters, like now I'm pitching another show, we'll see what happens with it, with the BBC.

54:41Michelle De Swarte: And I get it. I understand character breakdowns. The only thing that would set me back is there was a little while where before I started writing, I was like, oh, write is a thing that writers do. But I don't know how to do that. And then I realised anyone can write, you know. And then I sort of was like, you know, the spelling thing I got over. But once I realised you get an editor or you pass it on to someone and they understand that us creatives of neurodivergent, this, that and whatever, because you know when you're dyslexic, sometimes someone goes, oh, just use spellcheck. You think spellcheck knows what I'm trying to write?

55:16Michelle De Swarte: Characters, why is it? There's an H in there and a weight, what? You know when you're like, you think there's a suggestion for me with what I'm writing? No, don't be silly.

55:27Mo Gilligan: Has there ever been a word where you know the word, but you don't know how to spell it?

55:31Michelle De Swarte: Yeah, that's called dyslexia. Are you all right?

55:34Mo Gilligan: No, but you know, like, there was a word I typed in Google. What word was it? There was something, and I was sitting there saying it. And I'm like, what is the letter that this word even... Conscious. Consciousness. Right, them words. I was in a chokehold sitting there. I said, consciousness. I know this word. How am I spelling this? all right i know it's not k no c then i'm like what is it is it c then i'm questioning myself but you know like in my i know the word k-o-n oh listen i was on google fighting for my

56:10Michelle De Swarte: absolute life it gets you upset and emotional in it because you're like you don't even have

56:15Mo Gilligan: a suggestion for me nothing google's like brother i can't help you know you need to read books you

56:20Michelle De Swarte: know where i've learned this as well right because i'm the voice of delivery and i've been the voice the delivery for a while and sometimes I'll go in and they're so nice with me. They'll be like... That's on the radio, isn't it? It's on the radio, it's TV, it's everything.

56:30Mo Gilligan: TV, yeah, man. That's mad actually you said that because I was listening to talks the other day and I was like, I know this voice. Yeah.

56:36Michelle De Swarte: Who is this voice? Which deep woman voice is this that I know? South London. Yeah. So anyway, what's mad with that is sometimes they'll be so nice. They'll be like, Michelle, we know that you've said it like this. Let's say it's teriyaki and they're like, it's teriyaki and i'm like i have been saying it my whole life in this one way you know like there's certain spellings where they'll be like hi michelle great could you do it again and i'm like oh it's where i've heard a word and i i just because i don't know how to spell the word you're saying i've been saying it wrong do you know what i mean i'm just or you know i sort of and as you get older people are less likely to correct you in it they just say ah go on then and you're just out here in the wilderness saying pregnant.

57:21Mo Gilligan: You know what's mad is when they let you do it and he goes, that was fantastic. Let me see one more. But if you just say how the script is and we just go line by line. Yeah. And you're sitting there like, oh, I've been, I thought I smashed it and now we're doing line by line. Yeah.

57:40Michelle De Swarte: Yeah, do you know what I mean? I didn't know. What is it? Foe, yeah? You know, I don't know how I was saying it, but they were just like, okay like can you we just got a few pickups yeah yeah yeah just a couple of big ups but in terms of in terms of like writing I love it because it's a whole world that you're creating and I'm quite a visual person and so I really enjoy all of that side of it you know like I can do all of that I could write a whole show no writers on my own yeah yeah yeah you think I could post that the show's out on TV you think I could do that without assistance no bravo you best have me as a collaborate ah please collaborate with me except except

58:21Mo Gilligan: that's so interesting because i feel like with writing i'm probably the opposite social media i know how to navigate that post share whatever it is but when it came to the writing side of script i remember just sitting there with um what's it called final draft final draft and i was like all right so where we go from here like do you know i mean i'm writing the character in the line space the other character in the line and then when you you know when you have you ever had this way you know you get into a room of like writing and you sit there you're like what this is how we write it everyone's just talking and then there's someone in the side going bruv my first

59:04Michelle De Swarte: my first day in a writer's room i turn up like colton from the fresh prince yeah i have my laptop I had all my books I wore something smart I sat in a writer's room and it was like for this Apple like drama or whatever and I sat down I was all like I'm ready you know getting my you know like first day of school vibes and everyone was just like yeah so god yeah like no one got out a notebook nothing I was like ready with my workstation I say you got your pen right yeah yeah yeah yeah little inkwell do you know what I mean yeah my new fountain pen let me put my new cartridge in it click click I'm ready and yeah everyone was just sort of like lounging on seats just like well like okay like all right well like what about if this happened and i was like but is this exactly like you're saying someone's taking down minutes just like uh-huh okay let's break for lunch lunch yeah have we begun i said i could do some of this you know i can do writers rooms is this it is this it i had a lunch just

1:00:02Mo Gilligan: banging it on the head. Lunch. You know, when they do the lunch and they go, what would you like to have? Yeah. Let's all get, what should we get, and you're like, um, I was just... Anything I want. You're like, Pret is alright. Pret? let's go. We can get a Pret, but I think we should just get like, do you know, there's a really good Thai place. Let's get that. Are you good with that? Or how about farmer's malarkey? It's always like some nonsense like that. Like,

1:00:28Michelle De Swarte: someone wants to get like a ginger shot from there and then they're like, oh God, you know what? actually. And then before you know it, you're getting some like Southern like meal that sort of like also along with a keto diet. And then they're like, ginger shots, ginger shots. Yeah, ginger shots for everyone. The ginger shots.

1:00:45Mo Gilligan: But you know what really, what was mad is like, when you break for lunch in a writer's room, there's normally food there anyway. So there'll be like some bananas, some croissants, some crisps. A snack station. And I'm like, yeah, we can eat this, you know. We don't need lunch. I'll take the lunch. I always find it mad where you sit there and you write and you know like that's how I got really into sushi innit because you sit there and I was like let's get sushi and they put in the little soy sauce and they're like oh great so what do you like what do you get man I've got to come to some of your shows and you sit there like there's me ready to pick it up

1:01:22Michelle De Swarte: the whole green bit of wasabi pop it in your mouth like a mortezer I love this it's very delicious and hot.

1:01:31Mo Gilligan: You're eating the edamame. But you don't know how you just pop them and be like, hey, you got... It's chewy. Why are you not eating this, man? It's chewy.

1:01:39Michelle De Swarte: Yeah.

1:01:40Mo Gilligan: Oh, man. That's so funny, man. Yeah, the little

1:01:42Michelle De Swarte: green plastic grass around the side. Oh, delicious, man.

1:01:46Mo Gilligan: You're like, yeah. And you see someone go, oh, you're just meant to pop out the beads. We're all been eating these, the whole thing. Oh, I thought it was sugar snap peas. Yeah. Oh, Michelle, man. It's such a pleasure to have you on the pod. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Before we leave, you speak about, like, you know, how you like writing and you're quite imaginative. How do you kind of imagine that as, you know, a comic, an actor, a model later on in life?

1:02:12Michelle De Swarte: Well, I mean, I stopped. It's interesting with the identity of a model because I haven't done a modelling job for, like, over 10 years. It's still part of your DNA, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still part of my story. But how I like to think of, like, work life is, like, Am I going to be proud with the body of work that I have? And that's doing all different kinds of things. And now what I do is I trust my instincts a lot more. I know if a show is not right for me. I know there's certain things I've got to be brave enough to say no to because the money might be there, but the anxiety will kick up and it's not going to be worth it to me.

1:02:48Michelle De Swarte: And also I know if I'm not happy, I'll spend money like it's water. The money is not going to have any value. so and obviously you need money to be able to be philosophical about money I get that do you know what I mean like I remember my friend saying to me money's not an issue when money's not an issue I was like exactly do you know what I mean when he ain't got no money you're like bring me my money you know what I'm saying so I do try to think of like am I I've done some stuff early on in my career that I wasn't proud of like when I say wasn't proud of I just thought that's kind of cheesy I'm like what is it giving or like what's it you know like what's it doing am I do I like it am I happy am I proud of it?

1:03:23Michelle De Swarte: So like even my TV show, I didn't get a season two. I'm proud of the work. Do I love it? No, no one loves anything. Do you know what I mean? And if you do, you're a dickhead. Like, do you know, sorry, that sounds so British to say that, but you know what I mean? Like, if you're like, oh, that was the best bit of work ever. You're like, it probably is not perfect. Do you know what I mean? So everything can be improved. You know, you know better, you do better. So I tried to think of stuff like, am I happy with it? Did I do myself or anyone else, any big disservice? Was I going for any cheap jokes?

1:03:55Michelle De Swarte: Was I, you know what I mean? Like, and I like to have a bit of variety. So I love stand up. That is my number one thing. Every job I've ever got has been off the back of stand up. Even when stand up was not generating money. I will always keep that alive. I think it's so important. Like I will never be like, oh yeah, I do this now. I like acting. I probably say no to more roles than I would say yes to because I just know I'm not right for it. I don't think I'm going to elevate this project or do it any favours. in terms of writing I love writing I think as we get older you know I sort of think about things that I can do behind the camera a lot more and I think you want to be generous you know what I mean there's not there's more than one job for us now it's not like oh well you're here so that means I'm not going to get that job now I think that kind of mentality can make you hold on to things and not be not share your knowledge not give advice like things are moving the way they are you can either be someone who helps someone get along their way or you can be someone who's salty and thinks that what happened with them should have happened to you yeah yeah you know what i'm saying i know you someone who's always been like very generous with your platform and it's important and so whatever happens in your career the ups and downs the sort of trials and tribulations along the way these are things that we know about you and your brand yeah do know what i mean and i think as we were people on social media sort of think of themselves as this avatar it's like no they're sort of merging into one now like you really are your brand in many ways so like yeah i just try and think of like yeah there's certain things that i will do and certain things that i won't and i just accept that about myself and i hope that when i die that I have a body of work that has variety and made people laugh or entertain them or they found it enlightening or they learnt from me being a dickhead in some way.

1:05:52Michelle De Swarte: I think that's the most that I can hope for.

1:05:55Mo Gilligan: Before we go, I always ask my audience online a question for our guest. There's a question that came in for you straight off the top. Oh yeah. This is your question. Here we go. Someone said, Michelle, any plans for another spent series, please?

1:06:13Michelle De Swarte: Oh, well, we didn't get another series, unfortunately. So no. But I am developing a sitcom at the moment. Nice. With Jamali, actually. Oh, sick. So we'll see what happens. Yeah. Oh, wicked, man. Yeah. So we've got a question and an exclusive. Yeah, a question and an exclusive. And then also, yeah, like sometimes you do stuff and you're like, someone was asking me, they were like, aren't you salty about it? and I was like, do you know how hard it is to get a bloody show on TV? Listen, man, you just got to...

1:06:41Mo Gilligan: No, I'm not salty about it. It's the blessing of like, yo, like, you know this exists on television. And for me, as a CV, it's like you're saying, it's your body of work where you're like, this is the thing that I created. And this is also proof of concept. Do you know what I mean? And I don't think people realise what that's like. You're like, we have a thing here. All right, then get another series or, okay, we've done this thing. But it's happened. a vision in my head has come to life yeah come to fruition

1:07:10Michelle De Swarte: and if you're and that's what I mean if you're proud of it then that's it keep it moving think of something else it's not like oh this person took my idea and if you're creative I've had shit stolen from me I'm sure you have if you're creative you can come up with another idea create another one innit

1:07:25Mo Gilligan: oh and that's always the way man you're like yeah alright you know what take that one you need a bit more than me innit it's such a pleasure to have you on the pod man the tour's the tour's on sale now as well right yeah

1:07:36Michelle De Swarte: I think there's still some dates left. Yeah, many other people know, man. Yeah, well, it's called The Afters. And I'm sure we're going to put on more dates. It starts again in March. It ends in May. And I think most of it's sold out now, but I know that we're going to put on more dates. So please, you can look at michelle.com for that. Another social media thing that I don't run. Come on.

1:08:00Mo Gilligan: It's been a pleasure to have you on the pod. I feel like your story is so inspiring, but also really intriguing and interesting the way that you think and the way that you see the world of like how you like writing as opposed to social media. Do you know what I mean? And yeah, man, grab those tour tickets and this has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you very much, Michelle. Appreciate it, appreciate it. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it.

1:08:32Mo Gilligan: And if you did enjoy it, I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace