Naivety Is a Superpower: Timothy Armoo on Risk, Loss & Reinvention

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's up people? My name is Mo Gilligan and right now you're listening to my podcast, Beginning, Middle and End. Now my guest in this episode is one of the most dynamic and influential voices shaping the future of marketing, entrepreneurship and media. Rising from a modest background in South East London, Old Kent Road to Beast Pacific, he founded Fan Bites from his university bedroom at 21. and that grew into one of the world's leading Gen Z marketing agency. Now, his story is testament to ambition, grit and re-innovation. Now, he is a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree, a global speaker, an investor and a powerful voice on culture.

0:46Mo Gilligan: Please welcome to the podcast, the brilliant Timothy Armut. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast, man. Like the work you do, super like mind blowing. I don't know there's not many people that I think I've ever had that conversation with I guess for you it's quite normal bro it's still not normal to me that a you who grew up in South London Oakham Road is now talking about doing deals and publishing books with Penguin whereabouts in Oakham Road did you live? so you know near Asda yeah on the Oakham Road yeah yeah yeah I grew up opposite there oh that's the estate yeah like Burgess Park oh yeah okay alright 24 hour Asda There we go.

1:27Mo Gilligan: There we go. There we go. Yeah, boy. I grew up there from like 10 to like 23. And I grew up in Ghana from, I guess, 0 to 10. Was you born in Hackney, though? I was born in Hackney. But then basically I got sent. Well, my grandmother came and basically they agreed to take me to Ghana before my first birthday. Because basically what happened was like my parents, it was kind of like unplanned. okay like you know the ones bro i'm sure so many people that you know or maybe like your audience maybe it's like you know immigration marriage you know one person is from the country the other person is not so there you know so i was a product of that and so my mom tells a story i don't even know if it's true but god bless my mom i absolutely love her to be she says that one day she went to church and then some lady was like you know today you will give birth and then apparently they went home and then suddenly I was born she says it and she said it so much I believe it yeah yeah yeah but then I was unplanned for and so basically there was like this decision between do we go into you know does he go into care or do we take him to Ghana and my grandmother came when I was born and it was all agreed between them, basically saying, like, you know, like, this kid is not going to care, this kid is going to live with me in Ghana.

2:57So then I went to live with my grandmother in Ghana for 10 years. Have you got brothers and sisters? None, no. I'm an only child.

3:04Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Yeah. What was life like in Ghana? Because I guess that's all you'd ever known, right? You know what? I always saw Ghana as a pit stop. I don't know why, but even at that age, you know, because my parents were here. Yeah, okay. And so I always saw it as a bit of a pit stop where I was like, well, I'm just in Ghana for a minute and then eventually I'll go back to England and like that's where my life will almost begin and I feel like for a lot of people they probably have that same thing where they're in like an environment somewhere and they can see that's not where they should be ending up yeah and I think that I even had that in Ghana but I lived in a place called actually have you been to Ghana before?

3:44Mo Gilligan: no I've not been to Ghana never? I've never been to Ghana brother lock in man lock in yeah okay Well, Ghana is a place called Islegon. Okay. And Islegon is kind of like, I guess you could describe it as like Shoreditch there. My grandmother says she was the first ever person to live in Islegon. Again, I don't know if that's true. Why is old tales, bro? And so I lived there for a minute. Yeah, so life there was good. But you know what's so interesting? like when you grow up in ghana nigeria you come from a place of like relative luxury and then you come here and you realize that's not how the entire world is so i moved from you know we have drivers maids etc in ghana to oakland road fourth floor council estate and i'm like okay this is different you know and i lived in my dad then so yeah and when you say it was different was it the cultural i guess there was like a cultural shift as well yeah how much of a of a difference was that because i guess when you've come to the uk and you're living with your dad yeah you're about 10 11 yeah yeah yeah so what was that like adjusting to like uk life then for like a young boy from ghana i was really struggling to find an identity because i'd come It was just me and my dad, right?

5:06My mom actually was a person who suggested that I live with my dad. And I'm like forever indebted to her, man. She saw this stat, which is like black boys who grew up in London without a father figure were four times more likely to go to prison. So she, God bless her, was very much like, okay, for the betterment of my son, he should be with dad. so the difference was crazy because i was trying to find some identity some belonging um and that was tough that was tough and obviously as you know because you're from you know peckham it was them times that you know things were hot you know uh them times where you had you know py si bush gigs all that man and then you have the man then from brooklyn and brixton and peck and And you're just kind of trying to navigate your way throughout this, through this thing, knowing fully well, knowing fully well that I'm not on it.

6:06Like, I'm not on the beef. I'm not that guy. Yeah, it's not about that life. I'm not, I'm not about that life. But like my physical environment is like, well, this is what you do, you know? And so it was kind of seeing that, that then like forced me to go into business at a very early age because I was like, I need something which is kind of me. and I need something that can like get me out of here

6:28Mo Gilligan: basically what attracted you to business as such because I feel like at such a young age because was you like 14 yeah 14 and you launched like a tutoring company yeah yeah how do you how do you think that 14 because I the reason why I ask is at 14 I just wanted to stay out as long as possible and play football that's what I really wanted to do do you know what I mean well I probably realised I wasn't that good of a football around 13 but did you have other things that you liked maybe like music I always think of those physical things where you know you might go to youth clubs because a tutoring company is like at 14 you're like you must have seen I don't know like you know like when some people are so hardwired in a way where they're like I see something that no one else sees in this place do you know what I mean so my thing so so I have this belief that people are basically either pulled towards something or pushed away from something right and those are the key like motivators.

7:24So for me, I was pushed away because I was looking around me, you know, like fourth floor council estate, no lift. I was going up the like stairs every day and it was like dirty. There's people smoking weed in there. And I would like constantly be telling myself like, I don't belong here. I don't belong here. I don't belong here. I'll be trying to brainwash myself. So I was being like pushed away from the ends because I was telling to myself come on man you're better than this and then i think i was pulled because at 14 that teaching business i didn't i didn't say all right cool i'm gonna start a teaching business

8:04Mo Gilligan: it started off with like a bet with my friend and we saw this like black mercedes benz and he's like yo how much do you think that cost and i'm like i don't know like 500 pounds like five bills for the bends obviously like some idiot and then he then makes me a bet you wouldn't see 500 pounds before he turned 18 but it wasn't like a mad bet it wasn't like he was saying i don't believe in you if anything was the opposite he was saying i do believe in you and now are you gonna rise to the challenge and so then i went online and i don't know if you remember but like you know early on on the internet if you're searching like how to make money you just see scams frauds courses courses like 10 grand courses and they're like bro i don't have the 10 grand that's why i'm here you know um but then i saw this quote which like work with what you know and i was like on that day i'd done a tutoring exam sorry on that day i'd done a math exam and i'd scored the highest grade and then i went okay i'm going to tutor people maths and so that was the thing that formed the tutoring okay and then people started coming to me for other topics like history and physics and chemistry and i'm like i'm not that good at that but i know who would know and that's the other teachers so then the next week i go to like the physics teacher chemistry teacher and i'm like yo miss simonton miss lee who got the best grade in your uh last test and then they told me and then i'll go to that person i was like yo do you want to make bread and they're like yeah and then that was actually a formation of the first business where I would charge 15 pounds for the full service I'll take five pounds and I'll basically connect tutors to students and that was the first time where I was like okay I can like think about something in my head I can put it out into the world and people pay me for it like that that to me is magic I'm sure like for you probably the first time that you started posting content and you were like hang on a sec so you're telling me from my room I can create something and then thousands even if it wasn't millions at that point even a hundred people who see it and they'll react to it you are probably like what?

10:14Mo Gilligan: this is magic yeah no massively I think it's when you're young and also like I've I think the only when I think of like being your age when I was like 14 and business thing I would I think I really got into was like Pokemon cards really interesting yeah that was my thing where like that's jokes a lot of you know you hear the stories of people buying donuts and lucas and stuff but in our school we was allowed to leave we was allowed to go outside yeah so we was allowed to go out and get our lunch what school was this? so I went to Pimlico oh yeah so like because already we got to wear we could wear our own clothes the school was very I don't know if we was actually allowed to go but the gates were open do you know what I mean?

10:56Mo Gilligan: yeah so we would go out but like just jumped over the fence you're like yeah we're allowed to go I was like what? no you jumped over no no no The gate was open. That's the craziest thing. So it was like, it was almost like, do we go? The gates are open, innit? There's no one there to stop us or anything. But like, I think the first time, like, when you're young, when you're, I don't know if you had this at 14, because it sounded like you were probably a lot more, like you kind of knew what you was doing. But I think the first time I was able to make money and then you're like, this is a profit.

11:27Mo Gilligan: And my thing was Pokemon cards of like, trading Pokemon cards, selling them because we had kids who would have money that would be like, oh, I'll buy Zapdos for five pounds. Yeah. And I'm like, five pounds is a pack of Pokemon cards. So then, what I would do, I'd go back to, I'd be like, cool, I'd trade it, I'd sell in school, go back to the ends and I'm like, cool. And then, I started meeting these kids that went to, it's a private school not far from our school and it was in a bus stop and this kid, I never forgot, I don't remember, did you remember Pokemon cards? Yeah, I did. There used to be this like, thing that you can get to put all your cards in.

12:03Mo Gilligan: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this kid, who was probably a bit younger than me, he had all these Japanese cards. I had never seen a Japanese card, in it. Yeah, he was the plug. So I was like, where do you get these Japanese cards? He's like, oh, my dad goes to Japan. Yeah. So I was like, oh, listen, I'll buy some of them in it. And I'm talking like, you know, like when you buy it like a box, you get the entry level. Like, I don't know. You'd get maybe like, you'd be like, you know, Oddish, for example. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Normally, Oddish is like, I don't want that, bruv. But a Japanese Oddish.

12:31A Japanese Oddish is different.

12:33Mo Gilligan: When I go back to the ends, they'll be like, brother, what's this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Japanese. So then they'll be like, yeah, no, I'll take that. Ten pounds. This is incredible. So then, yeah, that was like my first, but I didn't know it was business until you start making a profit. And you get so many of those young people that find that they're doing a thing and you're like, bro, I'm making money. This is like a business. This is like a thing. Yeah, you don't clock it. Like, this is one of the things that we, like, talk about in my book, which is, like, everything big starts small. So you start doing the thing and you don't have a good idea of, like, where it's going to go.

13:09But then you're doing it and then you're like, rah, wow. You know, so even, you know, the tutoring business, you know, from that I made, you know, like a grand or two. And I was like, hang on a sec. This is mad. And the craziest thing about the tutoring business is like it actually low key failed because what happened was imagine you're the tutor. I connect you to a student. Once I've done that enough times, you don't need me. So every week I'm thinking I'm getting like, you know, 100 pound, 100 pound coming in. And then over time, it's getting lower. 100 is coming, 80 is coming, 50. I'm thinking, what's going on?

13:47And then it hits me. I go, hang on a sec. These men are going behind my back. And so if that hadn't happened, that would not then have been the like formation of the like the next business that I probably started at 17. That one I sold for like 110 grand. I'm like, hang on, you're telling me 17 years old, 110 grand in less than a year. Yeah. Because I learned from that. And then that one then led on to FanBytes.

14:11Mo Gilligan: And that was Entrepreneur Express. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a media public. That was a media public. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that one was, again, like, so you know how, again, in the moment, there's certain things that you do and you just go, oh, well, to me, it's so normal. That was a very good story in Entrepreneur Express. Like, I had been fortunate enough to get a scholarship to a sixth form, Christ Hospital. And I'm not sure if you've heard of Christ Hospital. They have these, like, 16th century gowns. It's like Hogwarts, but on Earth. Is it in Brighton? It's close, yes, in West Sussex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:50So you've seen it, yeah. They have their own train station.

14:52Mo Gilligan: That's how you know they're gone. Really? Christos World Station. That's one of, like, the top... Yeah. Like, it's like... Is it a secondary school and it goes into a... Yeah, both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like one of the top schools in the country. Like, yes, yeah, yeah. So I got that. And the crazy thing is, I had come from a school, City of London Academy. I'd come from a school where I was the intelligent one. And then I went to CH, Crash Hospital, and I was like, yeah, these men are different level. Like these are playing on the next level. So then I had to face this identity crisis as to like, who am I if I'm not the smart one?

15:28Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And I knew I was, you know, you know, the prior tutoring business had done okay. So then I said, all right, I'm going to start a different business and I'm going to start like a magazine business because I loved magazines. I loved media. So it was an online magazine. And like through that, I had this crazy story. I don't think I've said this recently, but it's definitely in the book about meeting Richard Branson, about how I actually got to meet him was basically like, I knew that if I could basically get really good stories on the website, I could drive people to it. So I'm like, okay, cool.

16:06How do I get good stories? And obviously I'm a local man. I'm like 17, like who's paying attention to me? but then I see there's this conference and Richard Branson, Alan Sugar, James Kahn, they're all speaking at this conference in the O2. And I'm like, okay, how can I get there? How can I get there? And in my mind, I'm like, well, I can get anything that I want. If I can help other people get everything they want. That to me, it's like a business principle in my entire life and my personal life. And so I then emailed the guy, the conference organizer. I find this email and I say, yo, you don't know me from anywhere.

16:45I don't know you from anywhere. But I really want a press pass to be able to interview Richard Branson. And in return, what I will do is a couple of days before the conference, I will come and I will lay out all the chairs of the entire event so that you don't have to pay anyone and you make more profit that way. And then within about 20 minutes, this guy emails me back and he's like, this is the most ridiculous email I've ever got. Yeah. But sure. Yeah. Let's do it. So the next day, I skipped school and then I went.

17:18Mo Gilligan: And we're talking Christchurch? Yeah. Okay. I skipped. And then I came from Christ Hospital to the O2 and I was laying those chairs like the happiest man alive. I put that chair down because I was like, yeah, I'm going to interview Branson. And then true to form, the next day afterwards or two days afterwards, I'm in there with my small microphone next to BBC, Forbes, all these big guys. And they're asking these big questions. And I'm asking Branson some like meaty questions. Like, oh, what advice would you give? Like meaty, meaty questions. But I got the interview. And then I put that interview on my site and I drove traffic to it.

17:56And I was just like, rah, that is again crazy. And like in there is a cheat code, which is like because I was young, not even because I was young, because I was naive. you know like in the book there's a chapter we call like naivety is your superpower because i was naive because i was like oh i want to meet branson how do i do that i'm just gonna lay out the chairs for the person and then hopefully he will let me meet branson because i was so naive was the reason why it worked and i think like as you get older sometimes what happens is you lose that kind of naivety that kind of like first principles thinking what's the worst that can happen what's the easiest way to get this thing i don't really care what they'll think of me you lose that as you get older and that's a shame and i really encourage people to almost say all right how would a kid do this because if you think how a kid will get to that and go often you'll find that you could just do the same thing as well it's so interesting how you're able to i feel like the way you navigate at such a young age

19:07Mo Gilligan: to find your way into places where you can get knowledge or you can find funds how did that come was did anyone teach you that because i guess at like an age of 14 or like 17 or just know like I just think like what takes someone oh let me message this person to lay out the chairs do you know what I mean to get the interview because I guess like now I think with social media it makes it easier than ever to you know find out information yeah yeah you know like oh I can just DM this person they might reply they might not but also just know that you've gone to a different level to get that interview does that make sense yeah I don't know more man I think I always even like growing up and even even now man I have so many moments of like self-doubt I have so many moments of self-doubt um during fan bites and you know growing that business starting at 21 doing entrepreneur express doing the teaching thing I had so many moments of self-doubt but then my question was always well I can still have the self-doubt but what will make it like undeniable that the thing will still get done yeah yeah you know so to me I'm like well I doubt that this person like I have self-doubt that these people would take me serious but what will make it undeniable for the owner of the conference to say well we have to get Tim Owen it's not if I DM him and say bro can you get me a ticket it's not if I say oh I'm just a young person no it's if I basically almost like low key blackmail you by saying I'm gonna lay out your chairs I'm gonna save you five grand and all I wanna do how many chairs are we talking about 2000 rotted bro it took me hours hours that's a lot of chairs hours and I'm laying them but I'm happy because I'm thinking this is my moment you know and i think for so many people like when you have your moment grab it yeah grab it i'm sure again you're living testament of this like there's so many moments in your career in your life where you've been like this is a moment grab it with everything that you have and just ride the wave you know and i think that's what i've done even while still like really struggling with a lot of you know feeling of is it gonna work i'm not sure everything like that and you you go to university and while you're at university you're studying computer science yeah you went to warwick right i did go to work yeah so now you've you're at university i feel like you're also at university but you've kind of made something of yourself to a degree because you know if you're 17 and you're selling a company for 110 grand yeah that's a lot different for anyone starting university it's like oh my god i'm gonna have all this debt yeah like so well we haven't said how much of the 110 grand I wasted so that's what I wanted to ask you like when you get 110 grand at 17 yeah I'm just thinking when I was 17 bro I'm trying to go first place I would probably go at 17 JD Sports Foot Locker do you know what I mean you want to buy all the track suits and stuff you want to get as well as even university bro when I was at uni and that student loan came in I said yo let's run it.

22:43Mo Gilligan: You're not thinking of like, I need to buy books and everything else because it's the first time being a young person and seeing that money in your account. So that's why I go back to like you being at university at this stage where you kind of made something of yourself. You've had a bit of money at this point, whether you had all of the money or some of it, or spent it, how was university for you? Because it almost feels like I kind of sit here and I'm like, I don't feel like you needed to go at this point. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but you forget I had gone in. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

23:15Fair enough, fair enough.

23:16Mo Gilligan: You forget my friend. I had gone in parents, bro. And so, but even the thing, right? So to put a pin on that story of Entrepreneur Express, like when that company, I got approached by an American company to buy it. They're called Horizon Media. Now they're a massive agency, But beforehand, they were just buying sites, right? And so I ended up selling that business. And I remember even, like, the crazy story of, like, just me getting an email from them and them saying, oh, my God, this is great. Can we buy? And I'm just like, what do you mean buy? It was a scam. Bro, I thought it was a scam. Because basically, the guy emails me and then says, can you send over your stats?

24:06So I'm like, oh, okay, cool. let's talk about a partnership and then we get on Skype and I remember he's like yeah we've looked at your stats I don't I don't really think we should partner how about we buy you and I remember thinking yeah you know that sounds interesting

24:25Mo Gilligan: are you 17 I'm 17 but in my mind I'm like you know I'm trying to be all confident yeah yeah yeah you know that sounds very interesting yeah let me talk to my team bro there's no team it's me yeah yeah Yeah. Like, let me talk to my team about this, yeah. But in my mind, I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then, yeah, after a few weeks, the transaction, he gives 70 grand first, and then in six months, 40 grand. So in all, 110. But, bro, the real thing is I let my ego get in the way. In what sense? Because if you think about it, I'm a guy who grew up in South London. I built this company at 17.

25:04In less than a year, 11 months, someone offered me 110 grand. So now my ego is like, anything I touch turns to gold. So then what ends up happening is I ended up wasting the money on like these business ventures that I thought would just be good just because...

25:19Mo Gilligan: What were some of the business ventures? All right, well, first of all, I spent 40 grand, I say spent. I wasted 40 grand on spread betting. Basically just investing because I thought, yeah, bro, I've got the magic touch. No. I spent 30 grand on building a website for dentists, which was basically like a lead gen site for dentists, which was just like a terrible business. So I spent so much time basically like building stuff, which basically didn't work. So going into uni, I had two main motivations. One was I have now proven to myself that I'm the sort of person who can do these things. And I think that's so important.

25:55Like the first hit that you get, that's more important than like who you are now because it builds an identity as like the sort of person who can make things happen and so for me in 14, 17 I'm just like okay alright Tim O you can do a thing okay cool

26:14Mo Gilligan: what did your parents think of you making this money at such a young age because well they're very much like it's your money do what you want no because yeah I had parents I say I had parents I got friends who had and their parents when they got their student loan their parents are like we got our student loan. This is for us. I wanted to go shop and my friend was like, yeah, I gotta go home, bro. My mom needs this money. So my dad, who I lived with, he didn't quite understand what I did. My mom didn't really know because I didn't live with her. It's actually only after the sale of fanbites and you got the headlines and everything else.

26:52It was only then that she like, I guess like understood, but even I guess doing business, but my dad didn't really understand. I remember when we sold Entrepreneur Express and I come in and at first he thought I was doing like, you know, something shady online. I don't know if he thought I was like selling drugs online or something. I don't really know. But I think they just thought that I was doing something interesting online and over time, maybe something would happen.

27:21Mo Gilligan: Did you ever tell them about the amounts of money? My dad, I did. my dad I did but again it's almost like it doesn't it doesn't register because in African households as you know it's like the parent is the breadwinner yeah and so like you had low key what was happening was this weird dichotomy where like the child was low key now becoming and that was that was interesting but probably the biggest thing my dad actually did was he did have an influence in fan bites but in kind of a sad way. Unfortunately, he passed away when I was 21. And it was actually quite, I don't know what it was. It was actually quite terrifying because I had found him passed away in his room.

28:13But then three days before he had come back from Ghana, I think we'd had an article in like the Daily Mail or something. And then he somehow had been sent it. And then I remember he sat me down in his room and he said, you know, Timo, I'm so proud of you. I don't understand what you're really doing, but I'm so proud of you. And I hope you just keep going, keep going. And for an African parent to say that, as we know, sometimes it can be very, it's almost like they're too proud to say they're proud of you. And then three days afterwards, he passes away because of a second stroke.

28:53Mo Gilligan: Okay. And I remember something really, even now that I think about it, I kind of get a bit choked up, which is I remember when he passed away, I called my auntie, so his sister, and I didn't cry. I called my mom and I didn't cry, just said, hey, this happened. And then I called my co-founder at that time, Ambrose. and I was like and then I started crying and the reason why was a few years before Ambrose's dad had also passed away so what you had was and Ambrose was also from Ghana so what you had was these two Ghanaian kids who were very early in building a business whose dads had both passed away and there was just this internal knowing between us which is like okay now we have to make this work like this is no child's play anymore this has to make it work because we told our parents or we owe it to them to make it work and that was very powerful and i'm not saying you know now everyone needs to go through such a traumatic experience but i think that was such a forcing function for us that in times where things were really difficult in business we just like push through that must be so traumatic also at a time where it feels like you're saying you're riding this wave do you know what I mean and also to have like your dad who kind of knows what's going on but doesn't know but I guess is willing to support you and was you living with your dad at this time as well so it was just us two yeah I can't imagine how traumatic it must have been but also I can't put into words though how must it also must have fired you up bro do you know what I mean because then you're just like, all right, cool, I'm going to take this.

30:52Mo Gilligan: Yeah, you just have to make it work now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. If you are, like, you're the only child. Yeah. And also you're probably, like, at a point where you're like, I'm making a lot of money here. And, you know, as any goal, as a child, you want to retire your parents. Do you know what I mean? When we, I mean, here's a story that I don't think I've ever told before, But so we started FanBytes at 21. We grew it to like eight figures of revenue. Sold the company for tens of millions of pounds at 27. And I remember on the day we sold the company, the 5th of May, I remember going to the cemetery and just crying for like two hours.

31:39I was just crying, crying, crying, crying. But it wasn't like sadness per se. it was almost like a yeah like we did it you know and we did it and in a weird way when yeah when times got really difficult i remember just thinking all right we got to make this happen because that's just the because we made a promise and we can't break it bro so yeah yeah we just have to go

32:05Mo Gilligan: where you are now in your life in this period in like your middle what do you think your dad would say now i think if my dad was around he'd actually say something very similar to my mom who is around now which is that i always knew it would happen i just didn't know when yeah because i've had like a few random things and i think this is the case for everyone like you've maybe had a few people who have believed in you and their belief in you has really been the difference for me it was my dad it was my mom but it was like my english teacher i remember i had english teacher miss shabaki yeah i remember i was like 15 and i had won a few prizes in english and she took me to the side and she said you're a very smart boy i really leaned into that and i remember just thinking rah like if you can see more for me than i can see for myself yeah of course you know i don't know if you've had that sort of person same thing mine is my drama teacher mrs simpson she stopped that everyone was leaving the lesson and she's like can I talk to you one minute so I'm like I'm in trouble man and she was like you're really good at what you do like if you ever looked at doing this further after you finish school you're very good at acting and I was like what because not every normally I'd be held back for talking yeah being disruptive but that was it after that it's so vital the role that teachers play for students because they can see the future, that's their job is to teach and they know that they're like I can see the potential in this person you know, it's a bit like where I only use the football as the analogy in some ways where you play and you're like I can see this boy is very good and he's at an age yet where he doesn't even know it and I think when you see someone who doesn't know that they're good at the thing is so different to when someone knows they're good at it.

34:04Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can be like, you know, there's times where I know I'm good at something, but I can take my foot off the gas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Whereas when you see someone and you're like, do you know how good you are? Yeah. Has anyone told you that? And they're like, nah, just like doing it, isn't it? Just like doing it. Bro, you are amazing, bro. Yeah. Like. And you know the craziest thing about it is like those sort of moments change the story that you tell yourself. because again in my book the first in my book what's stopping you in my book the first chapter is called we are the stories we tell ourselves and the reason why is because it all starts from what is the daily conversation that's going on in your head so if you have your drama teacher tell you do you know what you're actually special you tell yourself that you're special, you're special, you're special.

35:00And the mole that believes he's special, in his next play, in his next audition, it's like, well, I'm special. So you act special, and then people treat you as special. And so you have this weird feedback loop where it all starts from what story do you tell yourself? And that's why that's the first chapter, because, yeah, in the book, we'll tell you about business, we'll tell you about this, we'll tell you about how to build a network. But if it's all based of like a negative story that you're telling yourself, then there's really no point.

35:33Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. So at 21, having your own company with fanbikes. Yeah. And later on, you went on to sell the company. Yeah. But being 21, having a company and you had what? How many staff were you saying? Like 57, almost 60 odd people. Oh, when we sold the company, we had 80 people. 80 people. Yeah. and how old are you at this age like 21, 22 no so at 21 it was me and my two co-founders and at 27 we had 80 people oh that's when you sold it yeah so we sold the company at 27 so when you sell a company at this age like are you in a place now where you're having this conversation being like wow sold a company at 17 yeah are you in a place of business now where you're like okay well build this up because I always look at it as like if someone's willing to buy this yeah then they know the worth of it and they know what they can grow it to yeah so are you essentially growing your company where you're like the plan is to sell now because I don't know if I can take this further or is it maybe I could hold on to this did you get offers prior to this so fanbites when we sold that one the aim was always to sell the company and I can just you know tell the two reasons That's why the first reason was because similar to you, we grew up in ENTS and our main goal is to get out of ENTS.

37:05And so if by building a company and then by selling it, you're able to achieve that goal.

37:11Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. Then, yeah, let's do that then, innit? Yeah, yeah. So, and this doesn't even apply just to like building a company or anything like that. It's like you need to have a clear end goal for the thing you're doing. What does this job help you do? What does this promotion help you do? What does this relationship help you do? And then once you get to there, almost being like, okay, it's achieved it. And that's fine. Because there's a thing I say, which is in business, anyone can start a business, but not everyone knows when to quit a business. Because there's a lot of people who are doing businesses and projects where they're like, I don't really want to do this.

37:51But their self-identity and their ego was so wrapped in it that they're like, ah, I still got to do it. And for me, at that point with FanBytes, I was like, okay, this thing is going to help me to achieve my financial goal. But also, I was 27 then and the business was just getting to a scale where it's like, I don't really know what I'm going to do with this business. Like for it to get to the next level, 150 people, 200 people, I don't know. So this has to fit within another bigger entity where the people know the play and I don't know the play.

38:26Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. And it takes a healthy amount of, I guess, self-awareness to do that. Is that also advice from other people, like mentors that you have, to tell you this stuff? Because I guess with a lot of people where you can create the business from the ground up and it's like, I put my hole into this. I remember when we went from this office to that office. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So many offices. There's so much emotion that goes into it. And I guess what I'm asking you is that the emotion in the business is such a fine juggling. Do you know what I mean? Of like, oh, but I'm emotionally attached to it.

39:02Mo Gilligan: But there's this business thing. I want to sell it. But maybe they might just run the company into the ground. And if they've got all these staff, they might not have jobs. Like, how do you balance that, man? When I was 25, someone gave me the best piece of advice ever, which is, it's okay if your business is your baby. but at some point that baby has to go to university. Buzz. And I remember them saying it and going, you're right. You're right. You know, me selling the company was my baby graduating to the big leagues. Yeah, yeah. The big leagues where, you know something, Matt? For six years running that company, maybe the biggest deal that we ever did, like the biggest deal, individual deal, was 500k, right?

39:52And that's good, obviously. Within about six months of Brain Labs buying Fanbuys, they did three seven-figure deals.

40:01Mo Gilligan: Oh, wow. Same product. My idea, same product. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because I couldn't even think, how do you even position a seven-figure deal to sell to one person? Yeah. You know? And that was my business graduating. You work with Nike, Samson, McDonald's, Deliveroo. yeah the big boys yeah like these are like big historic brands that people you know people see a logo and they're like oh yeah Nike do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah you know the Golden Arches McDonald's so like when you've got a company like that and you sell it because you kind of describe yourself as like a almost like a minimalist millionaire in some ways like I don't describe myself as that the press describe me as that why do you think they do that because I'm not flashy is that is that a choice not to be flashy or is that more of a I just like you because I feel like when you've come today you look you look good do you know what I'm saying I know where that t-shirt's from you know what I'm saying shout shout beep no brand sponsor but is is that is that a choice because I feel like when we grew up in the environment that we grew up in there is the the the choice to well yeah I want to I want to I want to look at this side of the of the shop I want to go up to that level where I don't really get to go there because at such a young age and it's not to say like your age mates are you know you've got to be wearing tracksuits and everything else but you're in a place of business where you're a young person and I feel like places of business you know look towards young people and if you're doing something that they're like right how's this this man is 27 how is he doing this because I could imagine how is he doing this Spencer how is he doing this this.

41:49Please tell me.

41:52Mo Gilligan: They must just want to sit with you, but also you also have like a level of coolness as a young person that there's people that are your peers, but also people that are older than you and they sit and they go like, I want to attach myself to this person because he's very cool and he's done something that I didn't do at this age. But also they then bring you game of like, yeah man, we've got to go here for lunch and we've got to go this place. and you go there, right, how do you feel about this place? You know? You're funny. What's this wine, bro? Some nice wine, bro. Start smelling the wine. Yeah, yeah.

42:28Mo Gilligan: So, start smelling the wine. So, why do you think that they describe you as that? I think, I think there is a image that some people portray or for a while, an image that is portrayed of people who've done well for themselves. And because that has been going on for decades about the flashiness and the boats and the yachts and the cars, that is your first version. But I'd say every single one of my friends, if not... Okay, probably not every single one because I have a few of my Arab friends who are just flamboyant to the core. But most of them, they've understood the work that it took to get there.

43:15and so they make it about the work and about just almost like being humble in the work that they are

43:22Mo Gilligan: doing and realizing that there's always more yeah yeah you know um i'm sure again with you like you reach a goal be very happy about the goal of course enjoy the goal celebrate ball out do everything but then realize like there's always more to be done so like even now with a lot of the social media content that I personally put out. I'm trying to speak to like the 21-year-old version of me. Yeah. And that 21-year-old version of me didn't respond to, look at my sick car, look at my district, you know, they didn't respond to that. Because I guess that's another route now with social media where people want to see what you do and what you're doing and stuff.

44:07Mo Gilligan: And that is another route that you could go down because I feel like it's, it's the magpie thing with the shiny thing do you know what I mean yeah because also there's a whole sorry go on no no because I've seen a video of you where you was outside and someone kind of like cycled past and you you told me to pitch the company and what he does you would invest in it yeah he gave him 10 grand yeah yeah and you know I guess with you now where you're looking at building up other people's small businesses yeah yeah within your you know like within within your within your space but also like within your community but also like me watching that video I was like like rah like that's that just looked cool yeah yeah yeah it wasn't most of the time if I ever see those things it's Shark Tank and yeah yeah yeah you've got someone like their dreams and their hopes you're like a pile of cash there and you're like nah buy one 50 % and I'll sit there like rah where but tell me the fact to figure how much you're going to make and I'm like I feel nervous for this person but then also I'm like but don't give him 50 % yeah yeah yeah but like I feel like you're you're using social media for what you do so well yeah yeah where you can get a young audience and they're like oh this is seeing business cool it doesn't it's not and I don't know if you've got approached by shows like Dragon's Den but I think sometimes for the people that don't know business we see that and we're like is this what it is yeah is it what it is is it what it is so so how are you using like social media as your tool to not just whether it's invested business but also be a part of the the trending topic as such yeah yeah you know well that's a great and thanks for that I think so there's two ways right so that video was crazy right like this 19 year old Somali guy with a mobile car wash business and then we see him and they're like yo because he's driving around his car was like yo and he's like what and then i'm like come here sit down pitch me if i like your idea i'll give you 10k right no equity just 10k to row started off and this guy is the most charismatic you know i think right now that video is on like four million views or something it's just like charismatic vibey person and i'm like yeah you are the sort a person that I want to help.

46:37Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because maybe this business is not going to be the one that takes you there. But in the same way, my tutoring business was actually the one that took me to Fanbytes. Yeah. I want to give you that first thing. And I want to embody the idea, like the name of my book is like, what's stopping you? I want to embody the fact that, all right, if you watch my content, you get the mindset stuff, you get the business stuff, and then we'll even give you the money to then actually begin the thing. So now what is really stopping you, bro? Yeah, yeah. You know, and so that's something that I've, that's something that I've really been very intentional about the social stuff.

47:13And that's also why I haven't gone with the whole flashy, flashy thing. Because if I post up a story and like 20 ,000 people see it and I'll be like, yeah, so basically here I am picking up my Ferrari and da, da, da, da. That's not gonna really resonate with that 21, 25-yard version of me. But if I'm like, yo, so here's a cool business idea. And I think here's how you get customers. And really, it'll probably cost you this amount, but you could do it for cheaper. So, yeah, there you go. If you want to do it, do it. If you don't, cool, sweet, right? I see that and I go, that brother is no different to me.

47:49Therefore, I'm going to do it, right? And so that's the way that I've been using my social media a lot. And that's the reason why we wrote the book, right? I was like, all right, you can see all my videos and all my content, et cetera. but if you get this book and you look at the book and you study the book you will get the same thing because there's no gatekeeping

48:05Mo Gilligan: is that really important to you to not gatekeeping give out the secrets because I guess it's like you're giving out the knowledge that you learnt but also that's the thing that almost lasts the test of time because you know some people are like oh you can't tell people how you do the thing man and you're like yeah but it's like you can make the same recipe for every cake it's how you do it that makes it different just because I've given you the recipe it might not taste the same if you don't bake it at the 200 degrees you might say nah man let me try it at let me try it at 220 it might cook quicker but then also you might be a person where you're like I like the way you bake this cake but I might just want to add some sultanas in there and maybe an icing in and I want to add my kind of flavour to it I think where you are now in life does it come with a lot of pressure though because being so young and you know when you get onto things like Forbes you know Forbes like 30 under 30 which you know I've met a few people that you know when they're like yeah like the plan is to get onto like Forbes 30 under 30 and you're like oh wow that feels like a lot of pressure because it's a time thing as well yeah yeah yeah it's like please let me grow slower you get at 31 and you're like sorry bruv you missed it by you but does it come with a lot of pressure to reach those things which are the 40 under 30 and the other like you know you've got to go to I don't know like a conference and speak and everyone's sitting there and I've seen your videos I've seen what you do now I want to hear what you have to say does that come with a lot of pressure

49:53so I think the conventional answer is yes it comes with pressure but it doesn't because to me i kind of i always picture the version of you know there's this whole idea of you are either in the gap or you're in the game right and the gap is basically where you want to be versus where you are now Right. And the gain is where you were versus where you are now. And I do think that maybe about 90 percent of the time I am constantly thinking, wow, I am so grateful to be in this particular life that I have. I'm constantly thinking about the gain of where I came from. And so to me, all of these things, like even this podcast here.

50:44Right. I'm like, I watch slash watch most videos. I've been to his shows. And now I get to talk to you. And I'm like, that's just so dope. You know, after this, I'll go meet some friends. We'll talk about business. I'll go to the gym. I'll go and do all these things. I'm like, man, how grateful am I to have this? And so anytime where there's a conference, you know, on my birthday, because I just turned 31, on my birthday, I was doing a talk in Armenia. in front of people talking about social media. And I remember thinking to myself, I love the fact that on my birthday, I'm in Armenia talking. Like, I love this.

51:23Mo Gilligan: Because the alternative is, I wouldn't be doing this. The alternative is that I've lived a completely different life. Like, no. Like, bring on the problems. Bring on the challenges, right? And I think sometimes for a lot of us, and in the book, there's this whole section we talk about, like, how to express gratitude. Right. And it sounds so corny and so cliche. And bro, me, if you told me even five years ago, yeah, man, like show gratitude daily. What are you talking about? Like we've got work to do. Right. But expressing gratitude and saying I'm grateful for this. So like even today, I was like, OK, I'm grateful for my mom.

52:03I'm grateful for my friends. I'm grateful for my team. I'm grateful for being healthy. I'm great. Like I was just constantly doing that. Right. So I don't feel any pressure. I just feel like every moment is almost like a stage and I get to do this. Not that I have to do this, but I get to do this. And I really wish that was a message a lot of people had. You go into work, it's stressful. Maybe there's a colleague who's getting on your nerves, but you get to work on this. You get to have an income to support your family. You get to do this. and the moment that you realize that it becomes a game changer i mean for me in fanbites there were so many times actually let me tell you a mad story crazy story fanbites was growing very fast

52:54Mo Gilligan: and we were trying to raise money from investors and one investor had said yeah they're gonna invest 500 grand so i'd done the forecast i plan everything and then i remember midweek I get a missed call from him and in my mind I'm thinking okay yeah cool he's asking me for my like account number sort code you know I'm like you know confirm details because we've already agreed this you know so what more could be asking or maybe he say you know haha I sent the money earlier I don't know something right I go on the call I call him back and I'm like hey what's up and he says Timo sorry I can't invest anymore I'm like what do you mean you can't invest anymore and he says well I'm just having dinner with my friend and he told me that TikTok, because we're doing a lot of campaigns on TikTok, TikTok is a Chinese spying app.

53:48And so therefore, I don't want to support China. And so I don't want to invest. How do you deal with that? And the way I dealt with that was I just said it's not that deep. And I feel like if I had tattoos I would just have one matter to it would you just say it's not that deep

54:08Mo Gilligan: yeah that's what you said to him over the phone yeah no that's what I said afterwards because he would not have understood what I said

54:19Mo Gilligan: I said right so he said to him he'd be like sure it's not that deep

54:26Mo Gilligan: I said blood clark oh my bad oh yes then I thought you did business was like this.

54:40But I think taking that mentality of like, it's not that deep to so many of the pressures and challenges that come. I've just found that to just be the best way to live life. So I see things, I go, it's not that deep. I'm healthy, I'm good. I've got people that love me. All right, let's roll.

54:58Mo Gilligan: How do you deal with people asking for stuff? Because people know that you've earned a lot of money and you are very successful in what you do and you have a video where you just be like, look, I want to invest in your company, 10K. You must have a lot. I don't know what your DMs are like, but at such a young age, you're on social media. It's your tool, essentially, in some ways. But how do you deal with people asking for stuff? Because I feel like once... you know, you could also make the decision to not be front-facing. Yeah. And a lot of people that I meet who are, you know, front-facing of business, they're like, yeah, I had to make an active choice that I wanted to put myself in this limelight.

55:44Yeah.

55:45Mo Gilligan: But I'm guessing there's all the things that must come with that too. People say, hey, man, like, invest in my thing, give me five grand for this. And trust me, like, you know, so how do you handle a lot of that stuff? Yeah, the number of times you've heard, no, trust me, bro, 100%, 100 % it's a money maker trust me or even better I guarantee you make 10 I guarantee you make 10x back you're like what even I don't guarantee I'll make 10x to myself so how will I do that I don't know man it is difficult especially when it comes to like friends are cool family are cool but it's when you're never quite sure what people are actually after I mean I'm going to ask you the question how do you deal with that?

56:32because you're like visible

56:33Mo Gilligan: yeah I think for me it's it's interesting because it's hard to make new friends if I'm honest interesting I find it quite hard to make new friends because my circle has always been quite close anyway yeah tight circle so I'm very lucky in the fact that like I met a friend recently and I I found out that he doesn't have any friends like wow And that blew my mind because I've got a lot of friends. Like my core group of friends, it's about 15 that I could say. Yeah. If I was like, cool, when I get married, I'm like, I don't know how many groomsmen I'm going to have because they're like my core. Do you know what I mean?

57:14Mo Gilligan: Or I can call them up. Hey, how you been? What you up to? How's things going? How are you in yourself? I could probably count 15 people on my hand. I've got other friends beyond that, but I'd probably say like a good close 15. but then when I found out this friend I know doesn't have any friends I sat there and I was like wow what a privilege I am to have like a good close 15 of these people and yeah I guess for me like now I'm in the public eye now I'm at a place where I've closed that door now innit so I still have friends in a sense of people that I work with yeah yeah and I would call them a friend but also it's almost like a friend slash slash colleague.

57:58Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? I still ask them, hey, how you been? What was your weekend? How's the kids? How's the family and stuff? And it doesn't mean I don't care for them, but in my group group, like if I do a barbecue, it's my first 15 that I get the invite. Do you know what I mean? But no, I think I've closed that door mainly because also I'm at an age where it's trying to keep up with having more friends. Interesting. But also having been... How old are you now? I'm 37. 37? but also but you look good for I try but Cocoa Butter bruv that's what I'm saying bruv but also I've also been double crossed do you see what I'm saying yeah of people that you've let in and be like oh like come in man meet the mandem and we'll go out for food and did it and then you'd be like oh okay raw like I was willing to go above and beyond for you to help you and oh that's that's a shame man not even for me because it's just like oh but sometimes it's a good eye opener because you're like okay cool i've got to wake up and yeah yeah yeah the aura that might come with people seeing what they think yeah what's going on in on my life in in my life if that makes sense yeah you know so how was how is that for you i mean i think you've perfectly encapsulated mine is not 15 i have seven i did this very you know what this is actually again and a bit of a morbid story, but like two years ago, my best friend died of leukemia.

59:31Mo Gilligan: Oh, sorry to hear that, man. And thank you. And I remember, you know, going to his funeral and just like, you know, I don't know if you've been to like an African or Caribbean funeral, but there's this whole thing where I guess the people shoved the dirt on the coffin as it's going in. And I remember, you know, doing that and crying. And then halfway through it, I thought, when I go, who are going to be the people who are going to be shoveling for me? And instantly I just thought about five people. and I said those five people I'm going to make sure that I'm always there for them yeah yeah um and it's weird like one of those five people I only met her two years ago she's not my girlfriend or anything like that but she's just like one of my best friends and I go like I will go to war for you and so I think similar to you you have your close circle and then the rest are you know people that you vibe with that you chill with but you know who's there.

1:00:45I mean, are you, are you, are you seeing someone at the moment? Yeah, yeah,

1:00:49Mo Gilligan: yeah, fiance. Okay. Oh, you got fiance, amazing, okay. So I'm single and there's a part of me which is also like, okay, that's a whole different curlerfish. Because yeah, I can't imagine what that's like being single because it's just like, you're someone that, you can Google and find the information and the minute you're like, hang on, what, sold a company? all right cool let me let me know about let me try to yeah but we all know that bro i think there's one google report that says i'm worth 400 million yeah i said show me the 400 million the aunt is like timothy i heard you're worth 400 million so yay jesus anyway so does that does it find is is love hard to find in in a place of business because i guess it's you know friends of mine again who do business and you know you'd be having dinner that I gotta take this call yeah yeah yeah I'm so and you're like no no do what you gotta do yeah yeah yeah you know um how was how is that for your because look you're at an age where you know 31 like they say life begins at 30 yeah and I'll tell you bro 30s this is the been the best 10 years the most ups and downs I've ever had compared to my 20s but I know myself yeah yeah part of my life it's not that I didn't know myself in my 20s, I was still, you know, as a caterpillar, I'm still getting out of the shell.

1:02:17Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, right. Whereas now I'm like, I'm a butterfly, bro. I know where I can take this or where I can go. You know, but I guess it's like with any butterfly, it's like, oh, right, you can't go too high, you know? That wind gets a bit strong there, you know? Don't you find it funny that social media would make you think that if you haven't figured your life out by the time you're 28, 29, you're basically a failure. But then you get into your groove in your 30s. Yeah. And I do find that quite a crazy pattern I see. Bro, I have people DM me, 21, 25 years old, being like, oh, bro, I feel like I'm a failure.

1:02:59I feel like I've lost it all. I feel like there's no hope for me.

1:03:03Mo Gilligan: I'm like, brother, you're 25. Yeah. What are we doing here? I think, you know what it is though? I think your 20s is where you're no longer the, you know, you leave that teenage period behind where I remember still being like 17 and that like the function of like where you've got all the big adults. I'm still there with a 12 year old friend playing cards and taking their money, like playing 21 and I'm like, yeah, that's my money. Say a little man, it's like, don't cry, you know, don't cry. But it's like, I think when you're 20, it's the pressures that you've had as a teenager you've got to do this you've got to do that you've got to do this and it's I think it's such a finite thing at 20 because if you're 22 and you don't drive and someone drives I remember that being like bro boy life is I need to drive man whereas you get to 30 you're just like I really don't care about this stuff you know I think I don't know what pressure we put on people in their 20s like oh this at 20 which I can see why someone would DM you at 21 and say oh my god I'm a failure and everything else because I think in your 20s it's just a comparable age of your age mates do you know what I mean yeah and then you realise that everyone is living their own journey and it doesn't really matter what the other but like the crazy thing is we all know this you know we all know for example that generally like yes money will help you achieve a lot of things but like we really hear all these stories of all these people saying yeah man money doesn't make you happy etc.

1:04:47I remember seeing all these videos yeah like money don't make you happy etc. I'm like okay for you let me figure it out first and then I'll tell you you know like that's good for you Jeff Bezos but let me find out and then I'll let you know whether it made you happy or not. And then you go through it and then you go, okay, maybe there was some truth in that, right? Maybe there was some truth in it. But I think as with that and societal pressure and being in your 20s, there's always a thing of, well, yes, we know what is true, but we also have to go through it so that we can say, okay, it's true for us.

1:05:25So you know at 25 or 23, you're still a baby. You're still a baby. But then you almost need to go through it, get to 31 35 and go bro i was such a youth then i don't know why i was even stressing so is that

1:05:38Mo Gilligan: weird thing about life so you know you're 31 and i feel like you kind of have like i wouldn't even say the weight of the world on your shoulders because it feels like you know you've navigated this since the age of you know 14 you know you've gone through trial and you know tribulation of you know building a company from the ground up selling it having to deal with societal pressures from you know i guess parents where they're looking at you in a sense of like like you know being that age and being like i've made money and still having to go to university you'd be like mom come on man i guess we don't but then also it's like you're such a success story that i don't feel like you know sometimes it's very easy to say something oh you're a bit of a unicorn like I've never seen this happen but you know with your story it's like yeah but if you if you if I'd applied myself to the craft of comedy at 14 yeah you know and then said I'm gonna set up a comedy yeah 18 and stuff like this I could imagine the trajectory would be a little bit different not to not so much to say where I am now because I'm here now but I don't know if that would have changed somewhat for the better and i feel like it would if you apply at such a young age um so in terms of your end like we're now like you know you're in a space where you want to let people know what you're doing on social media and also if you know having a book out and you're not gatekeeping the secrets you know you said that um what does that next chapter look like for you because when you look at people in business and everyone will always bring up Warren Buffett, for example, do you know what I mean?

1:07:22Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. But my man is still an old man still giving game, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still trapping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, bro, you don't need to work, you know, bro. Yeah. But when do you feel like, you know, that will be like your, I guess the word I'm looking for when do you feel like you'll really find your flow because there's one thing going against the waves and that's a cool ride but there's also something quite nice where you're like this is some calm seas I'm kind of enjoying this for a bit and also enjoying the fruits of your labour a little bit as well

1:08:11so one thing I would say is that I had a bit of a short term view on business early on because for me, I was like, okay, I'm a kid. I'm a South London kid who doesn't have funds and I know that the way to change my life would be through business. I actually didn't really think about what life was like after I quote unquote made it. Literally in my head, I was like, okay, I run it up, I get the bread and then I die.

1:08:41Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Like there was no thinking afterwards. Right. And so after we, you know, saw the company at 27 and everything else, I was like, oh, OK, now what? And so there was actually probably like a year or 18 months where I was very much like, OK, now what? and then I split it into two buckets the first bucket was actually saying all right what can I give to the younger version of me for him or her to go okay I can also do this because for me as I said growing up in business and in personal life I just had so much like self-doubt and almost what's the playbook how do I do this how do I build this business how do I get customers How do I do this?

1:09:30How do I start this idea? How do I network? You know, one of the cheat codes in the book, I think it's like cheat code number seven, is basically how to build a network when you are a nobody. Because a lot of us started as being nobodies. And so a big part of it is that social part, which is how on earth, like how do I equip that young person, not even a young person, that kind of self-doubting person who is thinking, I want to make it. How do you make that? I call that person the ambitious minority. That's like a phrase that I tell my team, that we have a group of people who are the ambitious minority because the world and society wants you to be normal.

1:10:12They want you to just be mid. They want you to just play your role in the fabric of life. And there's a minority of us who basically are like, nah, we don't subscribe to that rubbish. We want more. And so there's definitely a part of this book, What's Stopping You, like there's definitely a part of it, which is I want to do that. The second part of it is I just love business. I love, love, love, love, love business. I love the growing of businesses, the building of teams, the buying of companies. You know, since since we sold fan bites, I've sold two more companies where I've been the broker where I've like connected to two people.

1:10:53One for 19 million, the other for 23 million. And I remember like every time I go through that, A, I'm incredibly grateful. I'm like, oh my God, how is this my life, bro? And then the second one is like, wow, like we're selling businesses. You know, like, bro, we're selling businesses. I used to sell LucasAids. Now I sell businesses. Like, oh my God, right? And so as long as I have that almost childlike, irrational feeling of like, cannot believe we are here, I'm going to keep doing and keep doing. And I think, you know, you mentioned Warren Buffett. I've read all his, like, shareholder letters, Jeff Bezos, et cetera.

1:11:33And they all talk about still having this, like, childlike wonderment when they find a business. They're like, well, so you're telling me this, like, this candy-making company where they make the sticks of the lollipops is making$2 billion a year.

1:11:49Mo Gilligan: That's mad. I want to know more about that. I want to buy that. I want to do that, you know? I just sat there And it's like Russell makes them sticks Yeah Someone makes them sticks I didn't even think of that Oh shit I'm sitting like Why do we just make some sticks man? I've never thought of that In my life Someone makes them And they send them to the sweet companies And the sweet companies Put their thing on it And they make it like 10 billion a year right and so like when you appreciate like when you appreciate that and you go raw like what a world we live in how can you not want to partake in it how can you not want to be like an active participant in it and so you have that section and then you have the giving back section through the content through the books and that sort of thing and like that's what really drives me now uh bro it's been such a pleasure to have you on the pod i feel like i could speak to you for hours bruv um but i'm a massive admirer of what you do and what you've done and i think it's so inspirational having a book where people can learn like your story but also i feel like learn business i feel like some people do business and they don't even know what they're doing yeah yeah and i feel like that's so important where people read this book and be like oh my god that's what i do i just thought i was doing a thing of having my old clothes and getting things clothes and taking to the boot set and making money and then getting that money and then i don't know whether it's styling or making clothes and you're like yeah that's that's a business like sometimes i think business can feel like you know you've got to wear a suit and it's got to be like a succession yeah but you know like it's only i i guess from like the last like 10 15 years where so many stories sound so similar of like yeah like i started selling donuts and then luke's and then this is how it started and they're like a lot of those kids 12 13 didn't know they was doing it.

1:13:50Mo Gilligan: It was just like, kids want donuts and Lucozade and I can just go Costco and buy them to the point where when I go Costco now, I'm like, how did that not come here? There was so much bread just waiting for you. There was so much. Shout out Costco each and every time. But if I had that card when I was 14, oh my God. Bro, it's been a pleasure to have you on the pod, my friend. But this has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you very much. I appreciate you, man. This was fun. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it.

1:14:28Mo Gilligan: And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.