Rudi Lickwood: A True OG Stand Up Comedian

0:00Mo Gilligan: Yes, what's good people? My name is Mo Gilligan and right now you're tuned in to my podcast, The Beginning, Middle and End. Now, my guest is widely recognised as one of the early black British stand-up comics to emerge on the UK circuit. Now, he went from being an Eddie Murphy impersonator to being a much-loved uncle on the comedy circuit. an OG in the game who's done it all. We're talking military tours to becoming the recipient for the Black Entertainment Comedy Award for Outstanding Contribution. So please, welcome to this hilarious episode the original, the funny, and one of my favourite comics, Rudy Liquid.

0:44Mo Gilligan: But no, thank you for coming on the pod, man. I think the last time I seen you was when you'd done my show for me in Greenwich, which I really appreciated, by the way. Okay. What did you think? Do you think the set was alright? No, you murked it, man. Like, you are one of the... You're one of the comics that I really like watching. One, I feel like you're very unpredictable in a way where I sit there and I'm like, did Rudy write this? Or is he just, like, just getting it off his chest? Because you make it look so effortless. You're also a comic that, like, you're in the clubs, whether it's the working men's clubs or it's the comedy clubs, and you're a seasoned comic.

1:19Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? So I think that's why I'm so intrigued when I watch you because I know that like there isn't an audience that you're going to be like, oh, they're a hard crowd today or it's like, whatever it is, I'm just going to go out there and do it. Do you know what I mean? I don't feel, I don't feel intimidated by an audience. I've reached that point where the intimidation is kind of like gone. Do you feel that audiences are intimidated by you though? They can be. Yeah. They can be. Most definitely. Most definitely. And I think, I think so they should be for the way that they treated me when I first started.

1:55So I'm like, I'm not going to let you lot do that to me again. But it's more a case of wanting to always consistently wanting to challenge the narrative. For me, growing up as a child, there was always a perception of who I was and who I was as a black person living in the UK.

2:20Mo Gilligan: Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so growing up, getting into the comedy was like me kind of saying, thinking to myself that I've addressed this, you know, I've readdressed this balance because it don't feel too right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I only say that because it's been nearly 38 years of being in the world of stand up comedy, you know, and I didn't come into it because, oh, you're the funny guy. You're the funny guy, isn't it? no I was not the funny guy I wasn't the guy you know what I mean who everyone would go oh yeah yeah yeah yeah hang around he's going to make you laugh he's going to make you laugh no Rudy ain't going to make you laugh you know what I mean Rudy ain't going to make you laugh because it was like we ain't got time to laugh we got too many things to deal with our teachers for example they got such a low expectation of us yeah so rather than focus on the lesson I'm focusing on letting him know that I ain't no dickhead you understand what I'm saying man but but there's a price to pay yeah when you do that do you know what I mean what was the price the price was that you're a loud mouth yeah I spent a lot of time in the passage at school especially secondary school because I got kicked out so many times at the classroom but when you kick me out of the class in the classroom and I step outside there there's an old people of other guys kicked out of the classroom okay Yeah.

3:52Yeah. And these were the guys who, because our parents, the way that our parents brought us up, they taught us our ABCs. They taught us, I mean, simple mathematics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So when you want to dumb it down, that means that I got time to play in class.

4:09Mo Gilligan: Ah, okay. And when you start questioning certain things, you get kicked out. So sometimes there was times when I got kicked out and I just rushed go downstairs go into the toilet my little people working on come back up stand up in the passageway and then start messing around with you know what I mean Michael and all them and them who is out there you get me but the thing is is that like I said the price that you pay is that the teachers then talk about you in the in the room you get me in their little office staff room that's the one so when the next teacher comes to see you they've already got some sort of concept of who you're supposed to be and what have you so they want to come down hard on you kind of like thing but it don't take too long to turn the classroom against them so that whole thing of like working a crowd started at school I didn't know a lot it's like that for a lot of comics I think a lot of comics realise that the power you have to have people listening can definitely come from your peers at such a young age where you're like, oh, people want to listen to you.

5:24Mo Gilligan: They listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had everybody at a point where they would listen. My intention is not to make you, it was never with the intention that I wanted attention to make you laugh, but it was with the intention of saying, can't you see how this person perceives us? Can't you see what's, what's going on in this school? Can't you see? And so they would listen. Right? Because, like, My thing basically is when I left school, I wanted to become an electrical engineer. That's what I wanted to do. Yeah. But then the thing is that the economy collapsed and they stopped doing apprenticeships.

6:04Mo Gilligan: Okay. So what year is this roughly? This has got to be about 76, I think. Okay. Apprenticeships died out and they moved into trainees. and then from trainees it changed over to enterprise schemes and all them kind of things because your parents would always tell you to go out and get a trade go and get a trade that was the thing and I wanted to go and get a trade but there was no apprenticeships to be had so you had to become a trainee there was something else after trainee I can't remember what it was, it's so long ago but that just didn't work out and like a couple of friends of mine couple of the man then who I was really close with can't mention no names but he ended up inside so I said visit him visit him visit him visit him because we grew up kind of like thing and then he goes when he comes out you know what I mean he wants to run a restaurant so I said right you want to run a restaurant okay that was good do you know what I mean so when you come out me and you will do a thing you know what I mean so I decided to go into the hotel and catering industry what made you go into that industry because it's like it's quite interesting you saying like you're able to kind of like control a small audience but then also wanting to go into a kind of trade yeah because this guy he was my best friend okay right and he ended up he ended up being inside for quite a while and like going backwards and forwards from visiting him and hearing what he wanted to do when he come out it was like okay we could set up a ting whereby if I go and learn about the hotel and catering industry yeah and you come out because you told me that you're going to be a cook and ting and then I work out how we run a restaurant yeah we're off innit yeah yeah okay we're off yeah so I started doing silver serving I started working in the hotels and stuff like that and then it was like when I got into when I started doing silver service and waitering I started getting these tips blood right and you get tips for service yeah yeah Yeah.

8:13Mo Gilligan: Especially in this country as well. It's like we're not a tipping nation. No, we're not. Yeah. We're not. But I was getting, I was working at the Waverly Hotel. This is where the story's going to start now. I was working in the Waverly Hotel and I'm getting these tips, right? Which means inadvertently that you're entertaining us and we like you so much that we're going to give extra. We're giving, it's like you've added value to our evening. Hmm. Yeah? So, it's a strange one. When working, I used to tease the, by the way, I used to tease the chef then, man. I used to take my tips, yeah? And I used to put it on the hot plate and line it up, like all 30, 40.

8:59And line it up and turn them saying, bro, can I have them ting there? One man throw soup at me, right? But anyway, he was vexed. But, Art Blakey walked in, right? Now, Art Blakey, I was at the Waverly Hotel. our Aunt Blakey walked in and he goes to me you look like Eddie Murphy you know I don't know who Eddie Murphy was right Eddie Murphy just come out with trading places at that point in time yeah that was what actually come out but what was next to come out was coming to America so this is the 1980s yes right

9:31Mo Gilligan: yeah yeah so most of the man them even despite the fact that that man them throws soup at me and all them things there yeah a lot of the the staff right were actors and actresses. A lot of them. Yeah, because we was in the West End. Yeah, yeah. So they said to me, there's this thing called lookalikes. Next thing I know, I joined the lookalike agency, right Mo? And Derek Doubles, Susan Scott's. And the next thing I know, I'm promoting Coming to America. Right. Boom. Boom. That's what I'm saying. Hold on. So when you say you're presenting, you're coming to America, in what capacity is it looking like?

10:15Mo Gilligan: What did you have to do? What I had to do, right, was basically once Eddie Murphy came out with a film. Yeah. Yeah. All I had to do was dress up as Eddie. Yeah. Right. The client would then supply me with the women. The client would then supply me with everything that I need around me to have that illusion that Eddie Murphy's coming to town. What? So whether it be a limousine, it didn't really matter. Yeah. Go abroad. Yeah. We had, at that time, we used to have Al Prices. Yeah. Yeah. So if his videos went into Al Prices, yeah, and they wanted to promote the video, boom. Once again, they'd dress me up, surround me with whatever they need, and people would start taking pictures.

10:59Really? And people would come and, yeah. But did they know that you was a lookalike, or did they think you was Eddie Murphy? Right. Like, they initially, because of all the drama that they create, because you've got to remember, this is Paramount's budget we're talking about using. Yeah? Yeah. So because of all the facade and everything they create, initially, they think it's Eddie Murphy. Yeah. Yes, everyone's like, whoa, whoa. And all I've got to do is stand there going, right? And you've got these girls in the way and what have you, so people can't really see you too tough. And you get bundled in here and you get bundled in there.

11:34Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know what I mean? But it wasn't until I went to my god brother's house and his next door neighbours, they had a copy of Delirious, the actual stand-up he did. Because he was, at that time, he was doing Saturday Night Live. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah? And I saw Eddie Murphy do stand-up for the first time. And that was the first time that I saw somebody doing stand-up for an hour, nothing on stage. Okay. Because I used to enjoy comedy from way before that. You know what I mean? I can go back to Charlie Williams, I can come through to Kenny Lynch, you get me, then we come down, then we come back down, then we get to Lenny Henry, then you come back down, then you get to Leo Chester, then you get the real McCoy, then you get Angie and everybody, and then you start getting us.

12:26Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. so once I saw him do that the coincidence again was that there was a lookalike competition being held by Choice FM by Commander B yeah yeah down at podium in Boxall yeah yeah so I entered that competition right and one of the first one of the first gags that I did as as Eddie Murphy as but at the time I wasn't Rudy Liquid as Eddie Murphy was about going into a toilet and this guy was being held up yeah and he just went to me and he went suck it suck it man suck it suck it and the gun didn't go off yeah and the guy sitting right here in the front row and the place went mad yeah yeah that's when the place just mo when I tell you blown yeah blown so I came second to Whitney Houston in that yeah Whitney was good this girl could perform like Whitney this girl she was a proper lookalike ting she could perform do all of that do you know what I mean and because I was doing the lookalike circuit I'm meeting up with other lookalikes George Michael Michael Jackson do you know what I mean it's like they wanted to do shows and they wanted somebody to host and I was with Eddie Murphy so I said alright I'll do it I didn't know what I was going to do though because you know what I mean I only had two lines and that little thing that I dropped the other day at the podium yeah yeah yeah yeah and um would you do this in an American accent as well no I couldn't really get I couldn't get the accent you know okay I could but I was a lookalike I wasn't an impersonator and I never ever pretended to be yeah yeah yeah but I guess for the audience I'm guessing at this stage it's just like oh my god this looks like a person that's all they I guess they care about because if you're outside at our price and you're trying to draw attention yeah that's all you want to do and then you want and then the PR companies they just want to get the customers in and then once they've got the customers in right if they're going to take a photograph they're also going to buy or they're going to purchase or they're going to yes yeah yeah okay yeah so it wasn't it wasn't a necessity for me to be able to impersonate him yeah I started going down that road at one point because I saw the potential of it especially when the lookalikes started to ask me to host stuff for them so they could put on shows and it just so happens that one evening I left my bloody clothes on the train but the show still had to go on yeah yeah and I had to go so I had to do that going on as me because the show had to be hosted yeah yeah yeah And I was still getting responses.

15:25Mo Gilligan: So it was almost like you didn't even need to do this lookalike stuff. Not really. But then something has to get you through the door. It's like a couple of cans opened up. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, so if you take away a couple of cans, for example, right, it doesn't take anything away from you as a talent or anything like that. Right? It's the same like with Gina to a certain extent, Gina Yashire. It was that they were looking for a Nigerian, an African comedian. They went through a directory. Gina's name popped up but you had to have been doing the hard work to put yourself in that position in the first place yeah like with me once I got stripped of the Murphy thing and I still went up there and I still got a response maybe not as big but I still got a response I went oh interesting yeah what was that moment like when you was getting laughs for you and it wasn't the Eddie Murphy in person it was it was surprising to me did it ever feel like a fluke because i've always felt like an imposter if that's what you're asking no but i mean like did it feel like a fluke that you you got laughs because normally i guess it's like if you have the pleasure of being an impersonator you're like i've already won once you once you see me i've that's what you all wanted right and then to then go on stage and do material as yourself you're like cool but i'm assuming it might be this impersonator that you're kind of laughing at but then I guess once you're like all right now it's just me you're like I don't I don't need the the costume I don't need to do the laugh I'm just getting it as me because the only reason why I asked because when I when I first toured I know everybody wanted to see the geezer character and have to give people what they wanted that's you know I mean I don't want I didn't want to do the whole nah bro I've been doing comedy for for years now so I'm gonna go I was like give the people what they want and obviously I've done that to an extent of like I'd go out you know I'd have the flat cap on I'd give out some red straps and stuff then I'd come back as me and do the comedy and then people would say oh right you're actually quite good you know but then it was also knowing that like it was like I could see some people like oh are you going to do more yeah they wanted the other yeah and I think it's then I knew I could do it but it's almost knowing that like this is only going to run for so long for so long was that the same for you that's why I asked that that question well this is it is that I tried to address that straight away.

17:52And I think that was the... I don't want to live in regret, but I think it could have been one of the mistakes that I made. Okay. Because it's just a coincidence again. In the paper, in the voice newspaper... No, the voice newspaper was... The Lookalike. But then at the same time, they were now doing auditions at the 291 Club in Hackney.

18:13Mo Gilligan: Oh, okay. Right? and because I just had that little experience and plus I'd taken off the the costume and everything and I thought oh okay so I reckon I can do go to the 291 in Hackney and talk about stuff yeah yeah and this was at Hackney Empire this was at Hackney Empire right this was about 92 you know what I mean this was like our UK equivalent to like Apollo Apollo basically innit yeah we're talking about people coming to de-stress from our day's work. Yeah. Vex! Vex! Vlad, Vex!

18:57During that period of my, of getting into the comedy, I'm like this. I'm not like, most comedians would say, yeah, I'm just funny and that's it. Yeah. I like to study what I'm doing, bro. Yeah. and it didn't take me too long to realise that, historically, we've got very little history when it came to black British comedy.

19:25Mo Gilligan: Very little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very little. I mean, you know, you breaking into mainstream now, right? We can go. We can go. Charlie Williams, Lenny Henry, Richard Blackwood, Moe. We can literally do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? so I then started to study comedy and I had to go over to America what was that like? when I say I went over to America I studied America and and the humour and why the humour came about the fact that it came from the frustration of being suppressed etc etc yeah the chitling circuit that then develops to when you sort of like get to Harlem them yeah yeah yeah yeah so who were the crossover comedians and why so you had people like godfrey cambridge you had people like dick gregory right we're not and we're not now talking about just uh performing for performing sake we're talking about people who were performing to change narrative yeah yeah and perception yeah so you went over there to study what what what year was this then this is 92 i was in england i'm reading books i'm reading i'm reading i didn't physically get myself up to go because I had children.

20:43Mo Gilligan: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think I could have gone to America years ago, but for my family commitments. Yeah. Because I've got like three daughters. Okay. Right. And the beauty of doing stand-up is that I can do, I can look after my children and then I can go and do the stand-up in the evening. Do the thing at night. Yeah, man. It's beautiful life, bro. Yeah. I'm pushing them on the swing. You're looking at the same brick day in, day out. Yeah. I'm taking them to the nursery. and I'm bringing them back and I'm giving them tea and my wife can then go and develop her career. Yeah. Because I didn't mind looking after my children.

21:20Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. No issues with that. You know. So. It was like once I started reading about what Black America went through and then I started to compare it with what we were going through and I realised that there were comics who were out there who were addressing social issues. So I realised very early that I'm a social commentator when it comes to comedy.

21:49Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah? And that's why audiences may find me a bit challenging. Because it's supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah? It's supposed to be. You've been joking about us for years. Donkeys years. And we've been sitting there chalky. All of that kind of thing. Rubber lips. You know what I mean? Your cartoons with the big lips and the cooking pot and all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah? So let's now tell you where you get your history from. Let's now tell you where you get your maths from. Let's now tell you where you get your science from. But we do it with a smile because that's what I learnt from Leo Chester.

22:25Yeah? I've got the shoulders that I stand on and I know whose shoulders I do stand on. Yeah? So on studying this and then I'm starting to study black comedy and I went down to the Albany Empire and for the first time I saw Curtis Walker I saw Ishmael I saw Leo Chester I saw Short Sharp and Shocking which is Luella Gideon

22:48Mo Gilligan: oh yes yeah yeah yeah and the likes and so I had to kind of like decide to myself where am I gonna pitch myself in all of this because what I'm hearing is I'm hearing a lot of Jamaican humour yeah yeah yeah this is all Jamaican humour I'm hearing all of it was Jamaican humour and I'm not Jamaican my parents are South American what about South America they from? Guyana oh okay yes yeah yeah yeah so don't come and talk to me about small island you understand what I mean because we can fit Jamaica into Guyana eight times yeah so once you start once you start especially with a black audience once you start now taking the mick they're like oh it's this boy oh him tinkibiz oh him tinkibiz and I'm like who do I think I am yeah because they notice now yeah that you we are the same but we're not the same yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's like I went right here's the one common denominator we have all amongst us do you know what I mean any Jamaicans in the room yeah with a Jamaican passport that's the common denominator we're all black British blood see so let's talk about what it is to be black British.

24:10So the comedy doesn't...

24:11Mo Gilligan: You're very, you're very, very good at doing that though. Like I think even being on the circuit and seeing you at like, like when I was young and seeing you come on like a Sunday show, for example. Yes, that's where I met you. Yeah, but it was like a young audience and it was like, when you was on stage, it was like, the way you demanded the attention of such a young audience where we all go, oh, oh right, yeah, let's... It's uncle. Yeah, we've got to sit up and listen, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's uncle. but it never felt preachy it was always funny thank you you know what I mean thank you I always sat there and I was like this is really fucking funny man thank you there's a bit of material you talk about is it the the bus drivers you talk about you said ah you know I know where my my family are from because we are we're from is it the Moors the Moors yeah that material yeah I think that's that's the one when I think of you I always think of that oh thank you bro that one and the Sharia law one okay sure you know then ones are like that's my like when I think of you I'm like you know everyone has like their show piece a bit of material but I remember you doing stuff like that even at Sunday show which was like alright man yeah yeah I know yeah thank you you don't take no prisoners no yeah yeah it's very nice to watch like as from an outsider but also as a comedian it's just like yeah man like he's he's on stage and he's not taking any shit you analyse your audience which all comics do but also in that field of like Sunday Show was a very young audience where you'd have rappers, singers so it was never a comedy show as such it was almost like an entertainment show like a variety show but it was brilliant because when I watched you at that I was like hold on a minute the guy ain't exactly telling jokes yeah yeah I wasn't It wasn't exactly...

26:08Because remember, I've had to come from a background of... Like, once I got into the comedy, you had to understand joke structure. You had to understand... You know what I mean? Similes. You had to understand metaphors. You had to understand sit-up and punch. You had to understand comparisons.

26:24Mo Gilligan: It's like learning piano. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. But I watched you, and I was like, this guy's holding them, he's engaging them, he's just chatting with them. Oh, thank you. And I remember talking to you, and you go, this is what you said to me I want to be an actor yeah yeah them times that was that was the goal the reason why I've done stand up is because I remember I've done performing arts at school and I I love doing like the funny characters and stuff okay and then everyone would always say to me in school like right you're really funny and I watched a lot of deaf comedy jam okay it's quite interesting what you're saying about how you know and I grew up probably as a teenager watching loads of deaf comedy jam and then telling everyone I'm like oh there's this comic that I watched last night he does this bit about the LA rights.

27:07Mo Gilligan: I didn't know nothing about the LA rights but I learned it and told everyone else and I said, yeah, you should watch this one comic and he does this thing and because what I liked about Sunday's show, it wasn't always the highlight of, let's say, the big comedian at the time because obviously, you know, Chris Tucker, Martin Lawrence were some of the more standout comics but you'd have comics who you're like, oh, this guy's hilarious and knowing that my friends, we didn't have a, you couldn't just type it in on YouTube and then they'd laugh like I told the joke and I said no no I borrowed the DVD but seeing everyone laugh and then I'd make people laugh and then acting was always the that's the thing I want to do yeah yeah that was always the thing but it was interesting how comedy played a part because I started to not enjoy acting anymore okay because it was it felt so it didn't feel like it doesn't matter how good an actor you are it's based on everything else it's based on the look it might be the director the exec the film do you sound like it's like everything that all I can do is go in and do an audition where stand up go on stage as me as you I leave as me yeah and I get judged as me and I said oh I like this man like I really like this that there's that beautiful thing where you have where as a comic you have people in the palm of your hand and I always used to love when I first started the realisation where I'm telling something and I'm going oh right it got mad quiet everyone's really listening listening that's scary though it is that's a scary moment bro because you have them yeah yeah and it's like you know where you're like okay I've got them yeah now what you're gonna do and now it's that pressure I think that's sometimes where the pressure now comes with stand up I don't always say it's about being that funny it's about oh I've got their attention I've got everyone I'm silent and then that's when I think you're able to understand you know I think later on in life I got to understand the timing a bit more there you go okay you gotta do the timing you gotta okay here's a callback but you don't know it's coming that's right you know so you're getting technical with it now which is what I love yes yeah yeah yeah which is what I love but definitely at that at that stage Sunday show I was I was just having a good time man yeah you can see it you can see it because that's what I felt I felt like I was coming into you lot's world yes do you get me and it was like I didn't I didn't want to come over as Uncle Rudy because then it's like you're disciplining everybody and you're suppressing them.

29:31They've come to let go, ain't it? You know what I mean? They've come to let go but it's like what are you going to let them go about? And it's like because I started, remember I got into comedy late, 28. So I'm pushing into my 30s. And you know what I mean? You've got all these impressionable youth in front of you and it's like, the thing is, like I said, we're taking back our own narrative. So that's why when I spoke about filling that the job application form and they go are you English are you whatever and I go well I'm more I'm a more because that tells me who I was where I came from what I you know what I mean you're not just you know I'm just going to just put black because then that means oh you started off from slavery I put more we got back 600 years when we was running Spain yeah but I don't say all of that on stage I'm like I've said it now who understood what I said yeah yeah yeah yeah that's it that's it right there boy

30:24Mo Gilligan: because some people are like, yeah, and then I was like, what's the thing? Yes, yes. So the laughs were important to me, but the applause were more so. Yeah, oh, okay. The applause. The applause breaks. The applause breaks were more so. The applause breaks, when you do stand up sometimes, it's like, oh, bro, yeah, you look like that, yeah? I'm not even doing any jokes. That's right, bro. But you can totally identify. so like I said the mistake that I made of transferring from a lookalike to the stand up was when I did the 291 I wanted to do this I wanted to talk about going through the job centre and seeing a set of two doors it went skilled or unskilled so I went through the skill door another set it said male or female we weren't confused back in the day we weren't confused right and then there was a final set of two doors and it said labour or conservative and I thought I'm ambitious and enterprising and I went through the conservative and I found myself back out on the street again, right?

31:26Because that's how jobs were then. So I wanted to talk about these things but I wanted to talk about it as a ruster man. As the ruster man then would talk to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You hear me? Yeah, it's the other white man I treat, you know. Yeah, we have to watch them and all. So I had this... When I went to do the audition at the 291, I had the locks, I had the spliff, I had the glasses, I had the character and everything. And I started, during rehearsals, I started to do that bit. And Charlie Hansen, who's a TV producer at the time, right? He produced McCoy, right? Great guy as well. The Black Theatre Co-operative, yeah?

32:16So these were the, we're talking about the posse and the BB crew who first of all went up and down the country to create the national comedy circuit that we have today. Yeah. And then off the back of that, off the back of them lot doing that, we then had the stand-ups came afterwards. Yeah. So the theatres went out first, Oliver Samuels and them and them. Oliver and them went out first. Charles Tomlins and Devon Morgan and all of them lot with Blue Mountain, they came next. Yeah. They started going up to Manchester, Birmingham, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. the real when the real McCoy bus yeah then we jumped onto that circuit as comedians yeah yeah okay but anyway let's go back so then I came out on stage as this character called Natty Bungo yeah and I started going on with my with my with my badness and then Charlie Hansen ran up on the stage and he went to me you know what because this was the first time we was going to have this thing on TV and he goes you know what you see that Rasta character that you got there I think he's going to frighten the old lady who lives in Bournemouth, you know, Brighton.

33:19Mo Gilligan: Oh, wow. Yeah. Now, I don't know about TV. He goes, I don't think you should wear the locks and the glasses and the spliff and everything. And I was like, okay. Because I want to be on TV, and I didn't realise that, in all honesty, I was that naive. I didn't realise the character had gone. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. So DJ Elaine that night on the 291, she introduced me as, because I was cabbing, the cab driver from Harzland, Eddie Murphy lookalike. And I walked out onto the stage in a pair of jeans and just a top. Not looking like Eddie Murphy. Not looking like Natty Bungo. And plus I'm going to go up and do this routine.

34:07Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So it's a mess already. Yeah, yeah. Everything that you would have. everything is gone yeah yeah right there's no there's no nothing it's just you yeah yeah yeah just me just chatting bullshit because you're not linked to nothing so it didn't take them too long all you could hear was mad cow disease boo boo boo boo brother's shitting fucking hell get him off what's he doing oi boo boo and the thing is that night they set them up with placards and everything going off off off really Off, off, off. Yeah, it was violent, man. Tony Gaudi came out as the Sandman, right? He was in a cot, kind of like ting with a nappy, right?

34:51Full of doo-doo and shit like that, you know what I mean? And a big hook trying to get me off the stage. This was shown on TV.

35:00This was shown on TV. For five years, Mo, I could not walk on the stage in front of a black audience. The moment I walk on the stage, they went, hey, that's that brother from the 291, you know? Hey, yo! Boo! Boo! Boo! Come on, this is the end. Come on. Nobody wanted to listen to what I had to say. Swear. Yeah, nobody.

35:17Mo Gilligan: For five years. Nearly five years. I was depressed. Mm-mm. But I'm coming from a background of somebody who succeeded in everything he did up to that point in my life. Everything I did. Yeah, yeah. Everything I put my mind to, I was able to achieve. Yeah. But for five years, because this time, Tabby Knackle's getting developed. Quite a few things are getting developed on the black circuit. Right? And this audience is telling me this. Right? But I had already, like I said, when I come into something, I come into it. So I already established that I needed an agent. I needed management. I needed all of these things.

35:55Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. Which I had put in place. So I ended up going onto the mainstream circuit, doing what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Did you change your material in any way? Yeah. Yeah. I changed, because, listen, there's no point in me turning around and telling you your face look like when mango ripe and ready to file. Yeah, with all them spot on there. Well, I find that funny. You find that funny. Say that in front of a white guy. He's like, what the fuck are you talking about? So I have to go, yeah, your face look like when pizza dry up and shrivel up. Yeah. And chew of these and like it's ready for file. Yeah, yeah.

36:29The joke is still the same, but the audience that I'm talking to,

36:33Mo Gilligan: It's different. So you just kind of, still the same joke. I guess it's like you're changing the translation. That's all. Of how you're telling it. Yeah. What was the mainstream circuit like for you as a black comic? Was there ever that kind of like, okay, I'm going to do mainstream and I've got to restart? Or is it the, like I know I'm funny? No, because the thing is, I was born here. So I already know who I'm talking to when it comes to white people. They don't know me. Yeah, yeah. They don't know us. Yeah, yeah. We know you already. We see you on TV. We're in the culture. yeah yeah so for them it's interesting to hear a different point of view and the point of view that you're getting is not one of just a black man you're getting one of a working class black man but they would they took the time to listen to what I had to say the 2-9 after I did the 2-9-1 black audiences weren't listening and then because I weren't going to do the Jamaican thing they don't want to listen so even that had to be readdressed okay and that was quickly readdressed readdressed because the one thing I realised pretty quickly was that you can't go to a job centre and say, you know what?

37:38I want to be a comedian. If we've got to stand on each other's shoulders, that means we have to do it. We. So Keith Palmer and myself, we met up down at the pub next door to Hackney Empire, met up with Marcus Simmons was performing at the time. We started to chat. Keith got booed off the 291 as well. Keith Palmer, MBE.

38:02Mo Gilligan: yeah and we set up the comedy school yes right yeah yeah yeah comedy school set up 1998 something like that comedy school so the comedy school brings you Judy Love the comedy school brings you Cain Brown the comedy school brings you Quincy the comedy school brings you Mr C the comedy school brings you Glenda the comedy school we started that down in Stratford we we put together a a a a proper comedy course for black people. Yeah. Because I used to go to Jackson's Lane, right? Because I told you, I was a, I'm still, to this day, I'm still a student of comedy. Yeah. So, when I went to Jackson's Lane to learn how to write comedy and stuff like that, and I started to tell them what I wanted to talk about, and they started to explain to me, well, culturally, this audience is not going to understand you.

38:51And I'm saying, well, hold on a minute. Well, what you're basically saying, I've got to water down what I'm doing, innit? I don't want anyone to water down what I'm doing.

39:00Mo Gilligan: yeah yeah yeah I want to talk my talk see and not only that if I can get on the back of a bus if I can get on the bus and hear a couple of pickney them talking sorry children talking yeah and they sound like they're black and I turn around and they're white and Asian they can fucking understand what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah yeah so we got hold of a guy called Tony Allen Tony Allen put together a structured comedy course right so for about a year or so Tony Allen was teaching this course I'm sitting in the room and I'm dissecting everything he's telling us and then I'm taking it and I'm injecting this comedy course now with Marcus Garvey I'm injecting this comedy course with Malcolm X right I'm injecting this comedy course with self-reliance and we got to do for self yeah good so I've got this comedy course now so in walks Quincy in walks Kojo in walks Axl in walks all of these you them yeah and now we start talking next thing you know kojo goes out there he sets up the fun house right the fun house brings you uh junior brooker the fun house brings you eddie caddy the fun house starts bringing you all these people so the ethos of the comedy school is growth self-reliance and growth and we stand on one of the shoulders in in order to get there it also brings new voices to the table not Jamaican voices Quincy's out there you hear the Barbadian in Quincy yeah Kojo's out there you hear the Ghanaian Latif is out there yeah black British ain't just Jamaican yeah yeah yeah so I guess it's like with the comedy school it's I guess it's like it's opening the doors to people to come in, understand comedy, but it's not just this one lane of just telling material.

41:04Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? No, it's about, it's, like I said, our history's thin. Now we got shit, bruv. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we got shit. We've created our own ladder. Yeah? I'm an OG and I don't say that lightly. I say that because I know what I put into the comedy scene in terms of the black comedy scene. scene right the door the doors that it opens for some when when people started walking through junglers junglers had 17 clubs up and down the country because you play you've i opened up i opened up at least 15 of those clubs wow i headlined most of those days like because those were the brilliant days i used to hear like like comics could do junglers on like i hear i hear this like a weekend you could do and you would do like what's it like the the thursday friday saturday and you do two shows in a night yeah you can do two shows in one and plus you might be doing the Comedy Store and Ballin Banana and all these other clubs wow we were we were when I tell you we were I paid for my house and everything bruv

42:10bruv yeah people wanted to knock jonglers because the thing is is that jonglers catered to like I said the working class who wanted to come out and just have a night out yeah yeah right when you go to Edinburgh and you do the art centres you know what I mean you have to have this highfaluted concept and blah, blah, blah. Do you know what I mean? And people are sitting there, half of them sitting there in fucking silence.

42:30Mo Gilligan: It's cold in Edinburgh as well. Yeah. It's just come out from the rain. Listen, man. Right? And then now we have to start talking about the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers are the people who are the critics. The writers who suppress black comedy and suppress working class white comics because you don't meet the middle class standards. That TV wants in order for you to show what Britain is supposed to be like. Because you spoke about that. I remember when you was on my documentary and I really appreciate you being part of that as well. No, thanks for having me, bro. I really, really appreciate it.

43:09Because it's like, for one, for me,

43:12Mo Gilligan: it was just a passion project. It was just like, I'm doing this thing that I love doing, but it's all these people that have come before me and telling stories to a wider community that people don't even understand as well. Do you know what I mean? You spoke about people like gatekeepers and stuff and just now I'm talking about suppression in comedy. How detrimental do you think that's been to the black circuit? Because you're a comic that played the clubs and you're doing the junglers and stuff. But I remember yourself and Angie talking about gatekeepers, which was one very disheartening to hear because I guess it's almost like how much could our circuit have thrived if they had to open the doors from the days of Kenny Lynch if they had to open the doors the days of Kenny Lynch all it means is that you're taking food out of a white man's mouth right that's the perception right not the fact that you're making Britain that much more fruitful because of the different cultures the different varieties, the different spices.

44:26People are now starting people are wanting to protect their own interests now you reach a certain level when you're doing the comedy and you've gone past doing 20 minutes and now you're into 30 minutes, 40 minutes, an hour you have to become interesting now so what are you going to talk about? That's going to be of interest for the TV audience the interest is hearing our story they already know their story they don't know our story they know oh I know Leroy oh yeah you alright Leroy yeah everyone's supposed to know Leroy what about Errol what about Ian what about Jennifer what about Patsy you don't know about them you ain't got a clue do you know what I mean but we can tell you about Shard and I and Prime Arnie and we can tell you about you yeah yeah and that's where that's where it doesn't matter if you're if you're a proficient black comedian and you go anywhere in the UK the white audience will sit down and want to listen to what you've got to say because it's interest you have to be you have to have interest as well as being well no that's my opinion I'd like to think that you have to have something interesting to say as well as be funny

45:33Mo Gilligan: it's so everything you're saying hits home so much because when I started doing more mainstream shows and it is just like you know going to the middle of nowhere to to perform to 200 people and you know I'd be like, oh, I'm wearing a hoodie and I've got some trainers on. You know, you're in the green room and comics would be like, oh, you've got nice trainers, man. Wow. And I'm like, yeah, these are just... These are just standard when you go back home. Yeah, bro, this is any crepes. But I first really realised once I was on that circuit of talking about, you know, where I'm from, you know, like my dad is a Rastafarian.

46:11Mo Gilligan: I grew up here and my mum does this and, you know, and your mum's like this, but then you've got your auntie. and I used to always, it was the one thing that I think I learned that helped me so much by the time I toured, I was like, oh, like people want to know about me and my life in a way that I was opening up their world to, they're like, rah, I didn't, I had no idea. Because, Mo, you killed the stereotypes. Mm. You mean, they looked at you and they went, oh, he's got uncle and aunt. I didn't know they had uncles and aunts. I thought they just robbed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. you're killing the stereotypes bruv you're breaking down walls yeah yeah yeah but the thing is is that like with people like yourself and Baba Tunde and Eddie which is good and Eddie Nesta I want to put Eddie Nesta in there do you know what I mean is that you let people in in a way where they feel comfortable and the people that I'm talking about we're talking gatekeepers now the comfortable people are the producers are the directors are the management yeah so you've said to me when I came in here you know what Rudy we can talk about whatever we want to talk about we don't have to worry about it and I'm like alright cool nice one yeah yeah it's because it's your show but now we're going to go and mock the week or something like that do you know what I mean and you start saying stuff you're starting calm down Tiger calm down easy that's what you hear on the side you'll hear it because them and them know that you're going to come from a different angle that they ain't going to come from now.

47:47Mo Gilligan: Oh, okay. Yeah, but if you're going to sit down and play with them and smile with them, because we never smile with a lot of them and them, yeah? A lot of them, the mainstream comics, Joe Brown, blah, blah, blah, they know me. I know them. It's not about that we don't know each other. We all know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? Your politics, my culture, it's not the same. And I was never going to water that down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? So I'm good once I'm in front of the audience and I'm doing my thing. But once I get in the dressing room now, boy, it is a black and white team. It is a cultural team.

48:24Yeah? And they just now heard the audience respond to what I just had to say.

48:30Mo Gilligan: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, when other comments will come in, it's like, how you play the game behind the scene now? How do you play the game? That's why I knew I needed to have an agent to front me because half of them mandemain ain't going to like what I have to say yeah yeah when you're doing comedy in the 90s I know on the dock a little bit you speak about you know gatekeepers and television and that was the time also where the real McCoy's boom yes was yeah iconic we killed it man do you know what I mean we killed it what was it like for you at that time because I feel like there's always a moment in history when something is happening and everyone knows you know especially I was a child at that time but for someone like yourself who's on the circuit where you're like rah this thing is popping man and you could imagine like even for me and my family it was like we're going to sit and watch Real McQuiet but it was event based TV yeah it was you know what was it like for you at that time because you know you speak about the gatekeepers and then trying to get in to even have a meeting must have felt like my life can change but I've not seen it change for anyone else yet what it was lonely bro what was that like yeah to me at that point in time it was lonely because like there was Junior Simpson there was like myself there was like Roger D and we're you know we're going through the corridors of the BBC and places like that at the time but I don't know how to play the game Mo yeah I've got no idea do you know what I mean it's a lot a lot of deals or conversations was made as people were crossing each other and talking not necessarily sitting down in the boardroom and ting that, that decision done being made for you to now sit down and actually write the sitcom and what have you.

50:19I didn't know how to play the game, right? And I'm not, it's not that I'm an ignorant black man or anything like that. I just didn't know. And the agent that I had at the time who understood me and was walking me through those corridors, right? He had some stuff happened to him because Gina was with the same agency as well. because when I'm telling you they know what I was doing when I said right I'm going to get management I'm going to get this and they was like Rudy's all over the place let me follow Rudy let me see what he's doing yeah so Gina saw what I was doing then she joined up with the same agency yeah Paul Dudridge it was called Dudridge Dudridge Management yeah Paul Tonkinson Phil Jupiters they had quite a few of us and um so he he was my front he was my front I can't remember what happened I can't really say because it's his personal life but he had to leave.

51:10When that happened, that was me gone because I had nobody to front me now.

51:15Mo Gilligan: And I guess it's that person that can pitch you for stuff but also talk about you in the room when you're not in the room. That's what I'm saying. So it's like, I love what Polly and what Dave has done. Yeah? Because if them and them weren't in the room, you wouldn't get nothing, bruv. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? White talks to white. Yeah? but them and them front it yeah and it wasn't like they were just fronting it for fronting it say you got talent you get me you've proved it baba tunday's proved it eddie's proved it do you know i mean slim all of them and them they've proved it but this is this is britain that we live in and yeah as much as we're part of britain i was born here since 1963 right it doesn't make you english it just means you're british right so they have to dictate what's going to be broadcast.

52:05They have to dictate what people are going to see from what they're not going to see. They're the ones they want to put the personalities there that's going to sell them the toilet paper. And without the representation it's like I can only go so far. So the circuit then took hold of me. The comedy circuit then took hold of me and started throwing me around the world. So I went to Afghanistan. I went to Iraq. I went to Bosnia. I did all of these.

52:29Mo Gilligan: You entertained the troops and stuff, right? I did all of that. how was that experience like because i guess it's like you're doing what you get to do but now you're also traveling the world as a comic yeah that thing where takes you out to the comfort zones of what you're used to and now you're like i'm going to this place yeah i'm never i've you know well first of all i have to i would have to big up angie right this was the same woman um who allowed me to do the stand-up show, myself and Todju, right? So we were the first, well, I was one of the first black comedians to do the stand-up show.

53:09Was that BBC One? BBC One, yeah.

53:11Mo Gilligan: Yes, he's come on kind of late, though. Yeah, it was on late, because this is it. 10, 11 o 'clock. Yes, it was late, because now we're talking about, we're talking about differences of opinion. Do you get me? These were the comics who were on edge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't be on edge today. You can't say, oh. BBC One on like a Saturday. Yeah. After Match of the Day. That's right. this was edgy comedy bruv this was comedy that was like pow pow pow and it was like in the round wasn't it yeah yeah I used to watch that yeah yeah you could say stuff them time day nowadays you can't even say I'm gonna squash a grape someone's gonna go yeah but grapes got feelings shut up shut up grapes got feelings right you know what I mean so the circuit grabbed hold of me it was like alright so TV's not gonna let you do what you do right but we're gonna pshh boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom we're gonna keep you going yeah so that's fine because mo as i said i didn't come into it with the intention of being a big star i didn't i didn't even think about coming into it i told you how i accidentally slipped into it yeah yeah do you know i mean just piling up coins on a hot plate pissing off the chefs you know i didn't pick me i didn't pick it it picked me yeah do you ever think that like you as a comic almost like with the route that you've taken and the route that has essentially picked you was the right route to let you thrive in some ways do you know what I mean do you ever I think I look at it that in the grand scheme of things it's like why was you put here yeah and if you say to yourself well everybody's everybody's here for a reason everybody's here to do something everyone's here to pay a service then I accept that that was my role I'm grateful for the fact that the people that I've helped or the people who understood what I was actually doing in the first place are the same ones who are feeding me today so whereas I was this big headline actor at one point I get a call from Kojo I get a call from Quincy I get a call from Mr C I get a call from you so I've always been like supportive not knowing that the same people that I helped or spoke to would be the same that I would see later on do you know what I mean because all I'm thinking about is you know I mean got my mortgage got my kids you get me I am thinking about legacy I was always thinking I've always thought legacy when it comes to comedy to black British comedy I'm so proud of black British comedy um always thinking about legacy how do we build it how because our now black comedy we are an industry now yeah yeah right but you can't you can't get to that unless you've got the levels first you have to have that foundation so the foundation everybody's going to start with is going to be the um the the real McCoy yeah yeah you know what I mean get up stand up show do you get me um it it it's it's it's built its way to where it is so now you know what I mean we can look back now your daughter or your son or your nephews and nieces can go you know what I mean oh look yeah they got your Richard Blackwood you got your this and you got your that next one's gonna be me you know gonna be me I wanna be like yeah do you know what I mean cause at first we was looking at Lenny and was like yeah Lenny's alright but we don't wanna be like Lenny not out of disrespect but because Lenny came through new faces Lenny had writers right for him do you know what I mean us lot we talk about what's going on what's your face look like black like some Dutch putt we talk about what's in our yard and ting you understand what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah of course yeah we're bringing we're bringing that we're bringing black British culture to you yeah and then after that Britain you can do whatever you want to do because you normally do you normally exploit the talents of black British people of black people anyway yeah yeah what do you think the future looks like because you said like you're like you've always cared about your legacy you know and as a comic you're one of those comics that you know when people sit down and the next generation you know are performing on stage and you know if you write in a book you know you're you're going to be the person that they're like okay cool well i know of maybe like mo and richard blackwood and you know and then it's like it's like when i when i listen to music and you hear the musicians like naz say yeah but grandmaster flash that's how it goes that's where i know you might like my stuff and you know you it might be like a jay-z being like yeah but let's not forget this person and being in that conversation that makes people dig a little bit deeper into whatever they're researching and also the comics where even like I said when you you know if you've been on the pod it was like you're a comic that I love watching because one I never know what's gonna what I'm gonna get but also it's just the way that you're able to control a room you're a seasoned comic that you know that's why I ask about the junglers days and stuff because I'm like I've done a couple of junglers kind of when junglers was on the way out and the first time being on stage and seeing someone walk through with a pizza and I was like the fuck is going on bruv how's someone got a pizza and then you've got people oh hey and I sit there and I was like bro what is this is this what mainstream comedy's like but also knowing that when I didn't tell people my route and I'm like yeah like I've done Sunday's show you get a bag of goons at the front of the show who don't even know comedy and they got beef with people inside and it might kick off but they're enjoying what I'm talking about and I know there'd be other comics that would be like how did you perform in that but like knowing that you was able to read the room in both of those positions.

59:15Mo Gilligan: It's the art of watching. I don't know. You know, like, I guess it's like a boxer where he switches styles and you're like, oh, he's on the right. Oh my God, he just went Southport. All right. He's not the Prince Nazeem, but you're like, okay, cool. I want to learn how he done that. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like that's how, like, the next generation will talk about, you know, Rudy Liquid. Okay. In a sense of, like, being like for myself anyway when I watch it as a comic it's like oh yeah man like the way he can control that room and people feel a bit on edge and I know what's coming but they don't and I think that's why I enjoy watching you so much at the show where you he said oh did you hear that guys Mo's got a basement Mo's got a basement and it's like I didn't even clock I said oh yeah he's got me man he's got me man that was funny though it was very funny like me and my boys are laughing man that is funny bro but it's those like observations that like a comic who's played every type of room and every environment can just like alright that's the vibe I've seen that's the tour cut cool let's let's go with that yes yeah yeah yeah it's a very amazing skill that not a lot of comics can always do unless you know the game of comedy do you know what I mean well I mean that's true I mean we've got seasoned pros at that you've got Steve K Amos so you've got Cain Brown do you know what I mean I mean I remember Cain came through the comedy school too he's breaking boundaries he's opening up you understand yeah yeah yeah because you had him on the pod oh you had Cain yeah literally saying the same thing you're speaking about yeah so his comedy journey started quite late as well yeah okay that's interesting so I remember I was doing the Jungler show and it was like I walked into the room and the room was like all over the place kind of like thing and I was watching and he was just there was no there was no it wasn't being passive aggressive with them just aggressive yeah yeah yeah so there's there's different ways of teaching there's different ways of showing sometimes you don't always have to say it you show it like you would do show and tell you'll tell us something then you'll show it tell us and then you show it as a performer yeah so I remember that night showing him it's like yeah you can say what you're gonna say but now you've got to give them some sugar as well Cain ran with that without even realising oh wow now when I watch Cain Cain's a beast yeah yeah Cain's always been a beast Cain is a beast yeah yeah yeah I like watching Cain because when I watch Cain I remember I said to Cain we had a show in Cardiff and he went on before me and I've never been after someone like yourself or Richard or Slim I've always been before because one, I've got to respect my elders but also it's like, yeah, these men have been in the game, innit?

1:02:18Mo Gilligan: So this was the first time that I'd been after like Kane and I was watching at the side like, oh bro, he's working. This is the Kane Brown show. He's working. And I had to up my game it was the first time. Yeah, of course you two. Because as much as it's my show, I'm like, I'm not trying to be a gatekeeper in a sense of like, nah, just do like five and then I'll go on and I'll do 45. I was like, no, I want everyone to have a great time but also want to stand amongst, you know, like a cane and say like, all right, cool. I got up my game. I got to be sharp. I can't, you know, come on and there's no waffle.

1:02:51Mo Gilligan: Yeah. But also I think what I realized it was the, the aspect of like, like, then you realize you're like, ah, I'm not, I'm, I've never ever tried to compete with a comic. It's always like, yeah, I want, I want, I want in on this laugh now. So it was almost like, cool. when I get on I want to share within what's going on do you know what I mean of the laughter I feel like you have to be with comedy because I feel like when you jump on stage if someone mercs mercs it's the realisation of that no but you just give it up this is what I know you just give it up you give him his dues and then you get on with your shit and so long as you don't ignore what just now happened because if you're going to go and try and swim against the tide.

1:03:38You're going to drown, Blant. I've seen something in him, John. They're like... Hey! You're drowning, Blant. Come on. You might as well. Come, come, come. Let me give you a hug. Come in, let me give you a hug. But once you've acknowledged what he's tore up the room,

1:04:00Mo Gilligan: and you acknowledge it, that's all they want you to do. And then you can get on and do what you think. Because, like, there's been so many tours where I know my peer group and I'm talking about black and white now and my peer group and I go, hey, why don't you let me come out on tour with you? What? No.

1:04:22No. I go, come on, Rudy, come on. Come on, Rudy. No, no, come on, Rudy. Come on. Come on. And I just have to go, okay, shit. And it hurts because at the same time, I know it exposes me to an audience I would never have been in front of. And it's respectful at the same time because they've told you outright. Do you know what I mean? I don't have TV comics to say this to me. I'm not just saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah? And they'll go, no, no.

1:04:53That's the bit where you kind of go, well, it can be frustrating knowing that, that your peer group think of you highly in that way. but like I said you're a team player you've given them lot you've said nah go on Kane right a lot of a lot of them will go no right I've been on I've done stuff with Lenny Henry right I've never really spoken about this Hammersmith can't remember the year Lenny was doing a show and I walked in and my name's on the dressing door on the dressing there's fruit I mean they expect me I'm excited I'm fucking excited I'm opening up for Lenny Henry I'm doing the warm ups for Lenny Henry it's huge bruv yeah man so I decide to come out my dressing room go round and talk to Lenny and Lenny just took one look at me and he goes ah not you no no no no he ain't going on before me and I went back to the room and I went and I looked at the door and it said Rudy Liquid and I looked in the room and it had fruit and he goes I'll tell you what you can go on after me yeah and then I went you know what forget it man forget it so he then got me he then got me to do the TV warn-ups for Runaround there was a TV programme called Runaround at the time I think I must have done about eight of them or whatever and when um when the next time we bucked up and i saw him and i went lenny do you remember me you know what i mean and he goes to me yeah i know you i goes remember i was meant to um do the open the warm-up for you and he goes yeah and i didn't get to do it you know what i mean and he goes then why do you think you got run around you know what i mean so that just that threw me that just totally confused me I didn't know what that was meant to mean and then later on I kind of like understood that when you're an unknown entity and people are not sure about what to expect and you reach a certain level you don't take chances yeah because once you can take an audience to a certain space in their minds and then you want to try and reset them to do your show they are going to make a comparison between what they're seeing and what they've just seen.

1:07:27And to protect yourself sometimes, you don't give them that option to make that comparison. You know?

1:07:36Mo Gilligan: I find that so weird though because I always find that like, you know when it comes to, I always use the analogy of Amazon, people who bought this book like this book. And I use the same thing with comedy where if I see a young stand up and I'm like, oh my god they're so funny i'm like i'd love that person to support me on tour it's not to make myself look better but we're from the same worlds we talk about the same things we're going to have the same audience you're going to thrive in this space where if i know this is my audience i know you will definitely thrive and i want to see you thrive in that same arena as as me do you know what i mean but not everyone that's that's that's why i said that right at the beginning i said you're you're an individual that's how you think and you'd like to think sometimes you do like to think everybody thinks the same and you you quickly realise they don't do you know what I mean like I have this this wonderful relationship with black British comedy and wanting to think about legacy and and teaching people and creating the school and do you know what I mean and but not all the other comics think that way they'll think yeah well I can grab this opportunity and run do you know what I mean and I'm thinking no come back don't forget we got to build and we're doing this because we ain't got nothing in this country.

1:08:53You know what I mean? What have we got here? Yeah, yeah. Takeaways, we got hair shops. What else? You know what I mean? We want more. You know what I mean? That's why we call ourselves more. Right? But anyway, I digress. But yeah, so it always, it swings and roundabouts and that's why, like, when I end up on podcasts like this, It tells me that things are coming around full circles. It tells me that, you know, what you did five, six years ago is now paying dividends. Do you know what I mean? Because the only thing that keeps me relevant is people like you. You know what I mean? The other comedians.

1:09:34Because at the end of the day, the promoters and stuff who book me in comparison to the number of people who have seen me is very small. it's a very small nucleus of promoters who are comfortable to say you know what Rudy just go and do this and they don't they don't spin around and go I wonder how that went they're like nah that's good that's covered

1:09:57Mo Gilligan: you know what I mean because what what do you because you spoke you spoke a little bit about legacy but you know you've won awards as well so what does that look like because you know it's like you were saying before like you're referred to as like the uncle in some ways and like an OG um so how do you kind of look towards like the second chapter of like Rudy look look like of Rudy that that I think it's like is is as much as the Rudy the comic but it's Rudy the person do you know what I mean yeah I mean Rudy the person really really the person you know I mean I mean I'd like to I'd like to write I really do oh really yeah writing producing directing and these are some of the the roads that I've seen some of my peer group who um of same same age not same stature they're much higher on higher levels than me where they find themselves in positions to be able to do those sort of things and what has changed the game because it was Axel who told me this right Axel walked into a show one time he goes the game's changed the game's changed I go what the freak are you talking about he goes it ain't never going to be the same it ain't never going to be the same and I said what are you talking about Axel and he was talking about the internet right he was talking about going direct to the public and the public sponsoring and buying you do you know what I mean Axl was selling out shows before he did Britain's Got Talent yeah because he already had a foundation through the internet you know White Yardy Harry is another one you know what I mean now Kane with Patreon and etc etc etc yeah I mean it's just I'm of a generation who by do you know what I mean they only understand VHS right

1:12:01but But in all seriousness, right? You know, when we had COVID, I was trying podcasts. Do you know what I mean? I was interviewing my peers. I was interviewing people and stuff like that. I did a show, a Friday morning show. Did a Saturday morning show. Do you know what I mean? And I'm trying all of these things to utilising the internet and getting access. You know what I mean? So I'm just throwing things at the wall to see what's going to stick and what isn't going to stick kind of like thing. But, you know, and I think that's, that's the road that I will kind of like, hopefully, find myself going down.

1:12:42I make a lot of mistakes, a hell of a lot of mistakes, but you can learn more from my mistakes than you can actually my successes, to be honest with you, Mo. You know, so, for me, it's like, it's just to continue doing what I do because I love this, I love this game. I genuinely love it when it, when it comes to, to comedy. It's been, like I said, it's been able to finance my house, it's been able, you know, my children, you know, one's at university, one's doing their own thing and what have you, one's got three kids and married, you know what I mean? And all them kind of people. All off the back of comedy, man.

1:13:13Yeah. You know what I mean? You know? So in terms of legacy and that kind of thing, it's just to continually develop and grow within the field that we're in and then jump on the backs of the younger comics in terms of giving me the goggles to see what's ahead. Yeah? Because everyone's jumped off the back of me. They see what I can do from here and they've gone, you know what? We could do this and this and this and this. And they will step forward and do it. And then now I have to look at you, so to speak, and go, right, so this and this and this is possible now. So what next? Yeah, yeah. What next?

1:13:51What next? What next? So, you know, it's one thing to be old physically, but when it comes to the comedy, I think your mind is always, will always be agile. It will always be open, you know, to opportunities. And so long as, so long as there's people of my age group, that means there'll always be a marketplace. You know what I mean? I'm doing the cruise ships now.

1:14:14Mo Gilligan: That's it. There's money on those cruise ships. I know that. You know that. Don't tell them. But it's like, there's places for you at every age that you go at. You know what I mean? you start off let's say you start comedy early you're going to go into the universities you're going to outgrow the universities bruv yeah that used to be me when I was young man yeah it's a bang out of uni gigs you're going to outgrow them so you have to leave that and go to the next level then you have to leave that and go to the next level yeah yeah the difference is now is that it's happening as it should have been happening in the first place right in other words now we're going through the levels but people can see black british now I'm a celebrity getting me out of here that's mainstream yeah We couldn't have seen something like that before.

1:15:00Yeah. And we're talking about consistency. We're talking about consistency now. We're not talking about, we're not talking about, oh, just one black in, one black out. Do you know what I mean? The morning breakfast shows and all that kind of like stuff. Yeah. Shame that it took George Floyd and things like that to happen. Do you know what I mean? Because after a while I was like, I don't see white people in adverts no more. What's going on? So, but but but but what it meant is it meant that the the playing field is where it needs to be now

1:15:38Mo Gilligan: yeah so a man like me had to go through what I went through in order for you to be where you are yeah most definitely do you know what I mean and I and I give thanks to the BB crew I give thanks to the posse do you get me I give thanks to um Leo Felix Dexter do you know what I mean Malcolm Fredericks yeah yeah you get me Angela Ma Angela Ma had it tough tough tough but what did Angela Ma do she created her own production company called Straight to the Audience when she did that and she said I'm not going to wait on the TV I'm going to go straight to the audience she started filling out theatres in the West End yeah but when we grow up as kids the mindset is that you have to go through the system yeah and the system had the gatekeepers and all of these people who were blocking.

1:16:28Yeah, and the audience are saying, no, we want to hear, we want to hear, we want to see, we're interested, we're interested. But you've got a few people who are preventing people from seeing the beauty of what Britain really has to offer in terms of the different ethnic, I won't say minorities because white people, you're the minorities, you understand, right? But in order to see the different ethnic cultures and what they bring. Yeah, yeah. what they bring you know so yeah you got me talking a lot bruv what's going on

1:17:04Mo Gilligan: honestly I knew this would be a fun episode to have you on the pod but just as a fan of comedy you're always one of my favourite comics that I've always loved watching in a sense of like one I know you're a comic that plays you know you play you can play a black room but you can then you know go to a very mainstream, you know, a pub, do you know what I mean? And still have people in the palm of your hands, which I think as I started to do more standup and you realise that and you're like, oh, wow, okay. Like, there's not many that can come out of our comfort zones of, because I feel like you can get very comfortable when you're on the black circuit.

1:17:46Mo Gilligan: Yeah, extremely. You know, you'd be like, I can talk about this and then you'll laugh about that. But for me, even as I've done that transition and seeing you in those spaces, of like going to up the creek and being on the same lineup and be like, okay, cool. I'm gonna sit and watch and being like, oh, wow. Okay. All right. I see a master at work that's just got the audience almost, it's like puppetry. Do you know what I mean? And it's like you're controlling that as opposed to you going on and being like, watching a comic, you're like, oh, he does different stuff on this circuit. Do you know what I mean?

1:18:17Mo Gilligan: You're very, I think if I compared you to a footballer, yeah, because I always love a bit of an analogy. Okay. I always feel like you're like a proper centre midfielder. Do you know what I mean? You're going to go in with the hard, with the tackles, and you're like, yeah, I'm going up for the corner, you know? You're like, all right, mate. Yeah, Rudy's going up for corners, you know? He's not fucking around, man. And I think that's what I've always admired of you as a comic. Like, if we played football, you would be like, oh, man, I'd just be like, get up, man. Just get up, man. Just give him one back.

1:18:51Mo Gilligan: I feel like that's always the energy that you've always given to myself in a lot of those comics. Do you know what I mean? It's like, well, stop crying if they don't like it. Take it somewhere else and just do it somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? Just keep going. Elevate. You've got to get elevated. You've got to keep... You know, it's nice. That's why I'm saying this. That's why... To me, it was like, things got really good. Do you know what I mean? When I started seeing all the different brothers and sisters. it's not so much sisters funny enough but when I started seeing a lot of different brothers and people started talking about different things it was like yeah this is representative of me because as a kid growing up at school do you know what I mean I was a minority a minority in terms of numbers when it came to black people and I was I'm Harsden but I went to I went to school in Wilson I went to a Church of England school so I didn't even go to a black led church do you know what I mean so I didn't even know that you had a band in church I had no idea all I knew about it was oh you're like right I'd copy that right so it was it was almost it was almost like I was getting to the comedy allowed me to get to learn about me and learn about others and then I was able to share what I learnt about me and what I learnt about you and I my ultimate thing is sometimes I have to say to the audience I am you and you and me and that's why we're going to have good fun oh really man I feel like we could talk for another three hours man honestly it's such a pleasure to have you on on the podcast I love everything that you do but just like as a person and who you represent in a sense of like like just your love and appreciation for just us comics as well do you know what I mean like it's it's very authentic do you know what I mean so I always appreciate it and just pulling me up if I'm late man like sometimes you you need those ones boy listen don't be late man yeah I had to prep you man I was like Mo man when things come bro you don't want to be late yeah man you want to be on it no I appreciate that man but it's be like to hear you say well yeah because you know because that's the thing is that we always sometimes forget that we are not there we're not there to entertain our friends we entertain people who we don't know yeah so even with my wifey you know I mean I'm like I'm going to work she goes yeah but wait I need you to drop me down the road or whatever and I'll go do you take me to work with you she goes no I go I've got to go to work

1:21:30Mo Gilligan: really it's been a pleasure my friend that's alright this is your beginning beginning middle and end thank you very much bro I really appreciate that man hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it i'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace