Tinie (Tempah): From Peckham to Platinum

0:00Mo Gilligan: Yes, what's good people? My name's Mo Gilligan and you're tuned in to my podcast, The Beginning, Middle and End. And what a treat of a guest that I have for you this week. He's one of the UK's most influential and most successful rappers. That's right, his debut single Passed Out entered the charts and went straight to number one. He even bagged a Brit Award. But not just that, he got a MOBA Award and he's also won an Ivor Novello. Since then, though, he has gone on to having a triple platinum album. He's had some iconic collaborations and he has created his own publishing company and record label, Disturbing London.

0:38Mo Gilligan: That's right, a record label and a fashion brand that has launched future artists. He talks about everything from being a family man to selling out records to his humble beginnings of living in Peckham. So please, welcome to the podcast, Tiny Temper. I feel like every time I see you, it's nine times out of ten, it's at an event somewhere. It's very much passing through. It means we're doing well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. But it's always at a passing event somewhere. So to sit you down and have you on the pod is a massive pleasure. 100%. And even, I'll just jump in and say, even from your first ever show that you did, because remember, I came to that.

1:17Oh, yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You came to that, bro. Came to see it. You turned up in a Maybach. Wow. we still have to be tiny innit like we still have to do things in a tiny way

1:26Mo Gilligan: me and Jovan was looking through this small window it was like who's who's got me back there you go but now Mo's pushing all the big whips he's got all the big whips but yeah like even coming to the first show to see everything you're doing now like you said us having the conversations about LA bumping into each other like Wimbledon yeah because I see you in LA yeah Damsin's house that time yeah see you in LA Damsin Idris of all people yeah man Damsin Idris's house to Wimbledon like it's amazing bro and like considering we're both from South East London yeah man if we were at school and we were thinking about what our futures would become I couldn't have even imagined this so this is a beautiful thing bro and congrats on all the Netflix specials thank you brother man do you get what I mean but this is about you today man I was thinking on the way here when I was driving here of like one of like the impact you've had I think on UK culture and especially UK black culture and also like I have to also say like black young men like I think your impact doesn't really get talked enough on on that when it comes to obviously there is the art artistry of what you've done but also I think from an outsider kind of looking in is to also like I would I would also notice like you're on your rise the way you would carry yourself and like how you know you was very very stylish and thank you but you've done a lot of moves that no one had I don't ever I'd never I'd never really seen before in that magnitude you know thank you bro and um so in your book yeah you grew up you grew up in peckham grew up in peckham yeah that doesn't get talked about enough i don't think do you know what a lot of things don't get talked about and before it kind of used to irk me because it almost made me feel at the time obviously i'm way more mature now yeah i'm way more rational but at the time i used to be like i'm from the same place that everyone else has come from essentially yeah but why does my thing seem like it's different?

3:20But I've really come to terms of it and I think sometimes when you are a trailblazer or an outlier, they will talk about things eventually. Do you get what I mean? Or I've told myself, people can say whatever they want to say but you just continue to set the bar, raise the levels and eventually it will make sense to people because sometimes what you're trying to do is so forward thinking that a lot of people won't even conceptualise it. So like fashion, like you said, now is very normal for any artist that's come from that world specifically. It's normal for you to see them at fashion week or to see them front row of a runway show.

3:56Whereas like you said, initially when we first started blazing that trail, that really wasn't a common thing. And I would even go as far as to say there was like negative connotations around it. I mean, like, why are you wearing that mad outfit or this mad suit from this Italian designer?

4:12Mo Gilligan: They don't rate us. Why are you wearing this tracksuit or this and that? So yeah, I think I'm proud of everything I've done. And I think once you have family, like once you have children, it makes, it contextualizes everything that you are and everything you're trying to do. And ultimately, I'm just trying to leave a good legacy. I'm just trying to make people happy, whether it's through music, whether it's through all of the other things that I'm involved in. And I just want my kids to grow up and see that their dad was a G. That's all that matters to me. everything else is by the by bro people will love you today hate tomorrow love you again in a few years it just it is what it is bro what was like what was life like in in early peckham for you because i know you was there from quite young yeah yeah yeah i was there till about 11 yes yeah 12 yeah what was early life for you like it because i remember peckham when i was young and it's not the peckham of now no it's buildings yeah yeah and you know there was no frank's cafe when I was growing up.

5:11Trust me, bro.

5:12Mo Gilligan: Yeah. So how did that kind of shape your childhood? Because it's got matches. You know, everyone knows that Peckham has a massive Nigerian community there as well. So obviously growing up in Peckham at the time, very big Nigerian community. So it was just like, I remember as a kid, your norm is your norm. So it was just very normal. Okay, I live in London. That's good enough. Do you get what I mean? That's good enough. I'm in Peckham. We're not that far from the city. Do you get what I mean? So everything about Peckham was great. I remember from about eight or nine, like because I'm the eldest sibling, my parents entrusted me to take my siblings to school.

5:50So we'd come out of where we lived, which was Carisbrook Gardens. And then we would walk like through Sumner Road and then basically cross over, end up in Bird and Bush Road. And then I would take me and my siblings. My dad would take us to a certain point and then we'd all have to hold hands. And then we'd cross the road and he'd just kind of like wave. But I remember from like eight or nine, taking my siblings to school and like everything was kind of just normal. Weekends, it would be like Nigerian parties because obviously we were kids. So following the parents, seeing bare money getting sprayed.

6:20I'm saying, where's everyone getting all these dollars from? Like where in the UK? What is this? It doesn't even make sense. But yeah, so a lot of that. Then obviously had a great community of friends. Seeing them on the weekend, just like any normal kid would, knocking for your brethren, all that sort of stuff. I think because I left Peckham around 11 or 12, I narrowly missed all of the nonsense that sometimes comes with being a young black boy in a sort of environment like that at the time. Do you get what I mean? So slightly navigated that. And I think that was actually one of the reasons why my parents wanted us to move.

6:58So by the time I got to 11 or 12, one of my next door neighbours, literally in our masonette where we lived, we lived number 46 the person that lived in number 45 i remember he went downstairs to the bins yeah you know when you live in the flats you've got like the communal bins it comes down to the chute and he went to link a girl but it was a setup thing i don't know at the time i think it was even a trend like they'll set up chicks and all that so she set up this guy i never really used to talk to him because he was older but obviously i'd see him every single day and then before you know it he's just dead like stabbed like went to link the girl by the bins got stabbed up that's the end so my mum at the time in a nigerian accent accent was like hey we need to

7:40Mo Gilligan: move on no i've got two sons we need to move we need to get out of here it felt like a like a lifetime away but we ended up moving maybe like 40 minutes down the road to woolwich like it's changed now it's very nigerian now as well i think everyone got the memo but like at the time it was very like white working class people who had assumed lived more in the city maybe when they were younger and had moved out so that was if anything more of like a culture shock to me but would i guess as i've been reflecting on my life over the last couple years would sort of explain who i am and how i am as a person yeah yeah of course yeah because i think with growing up in peckham it's the vibrancy of you know you know you go peckham high street yeah even now a little bit for me yeah yeah even now where it's like it really reminds me if you've ever been to like you know when you go to like some places in new york where it's it's just a it's just a bustling environment but there's a lot of community there community yeah i mean that's definitely a bit i missed out i do remember my mom going on to peckham high street or like riley or whatever and then all the people from the meat shops to where she's getting all the vegetables to wherever she knows them by name they know her there's always a little bit of back and forth on the price yeah yeah you know what i mean someone's calling her auntie all of that was beautiful Once we got to Peckham, Plumstead, that was kind of lost.

8:59Mo Gilligan: So how was Plumstead for you? Because I just remember whenever I'd go even as far as going to Sydenham, my uncle lives in, he lived in Sydenham. Yeah. And we went there for a wedding. And once you go past that Forest Hill and the trees and there's more hills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, how did that start to kind of shape your perception? Because I feel like, especially when you go Plumstead, I just feel like there's just so much more greenery there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it makes you genuinely feel like you are out of London. So that's the thing. So initially I felt like I was out of London. I was definitely like upset with my parents.

9:34Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was like, damn, like all my friends. That's why I ended up going back to SFX.

9:38Mo Gilligan: So I did secondary school in Plumstead. So again, it was a lot more, how can I say? It was a lot more white, a lot more English, but there was still the odd like St. Lucian boy, odd Nigerian, odd Ghanaian. So I remember naturally at first there was a bit of friction, like who's this new you like what's all this but then after a while i remember kind of just aligning myself naturally just with that group of guys um but for me actually like reflecting on it i think it was good because it helped me to understand like where i was do you get i mean and the fact that this was england yeah i mean so obviously in peckham i had one or two white friends but now all of a sudden i had 22 white friends and i'm going to their house they're coming to my house oh what's that meat in the freezer why is there bare blood in the freezer what's that smell what's that all this stuff that i never used to experience before i'm experiencing it now and then obviously as a young person you assimilate in it wherever you are you start assimilating okay they like this they're wearing that they're into this i remember i've been in year six and the teacher was asking bare questions and i was just getting all the questions right and i remember everyone was looking at me and so i thought damn like is this not a good school like because no one else is answering the questions.

10:53I'm answering all the questions. And then slowly but surely, I started to, when I say assimilate, even kind of maybe dumb myself down a little bit just to fit in. Then fast forward secondary school year seven, year eight, again, still around this big mix of different people that hadn't really been around. And then that's when I discovered Pirate Radio. So that's when one of my friends at the time, Sean Hobbs, I think he was like, he was white, but like mixed with something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was good. I was like, yeah, all right, cool. so then he was like oh bro have you been have you heard of Nasty Crew have you heard of this have you heard of that I was like oh where I used to live we couldn't really pick up the stations and this and that and that and that so he started bringing me in tapes and that's when I started hearing I knew So Solid and I knew a couple of other crews like the South London crews but that's when I really started listening to like Roll Deep

11:41Mo Gilligan: Nasty Crew Rough Squad because tapes back then was like brother it was like gold dust brother and so when I was now in this more leafy environment like you said we'd move from like a flat to a house um everything felt like it was going well obviously my parents had fully extended themselves to make that move and i think it was primarily for our well-being um so to kind of take me away from that like listening to all these tapes it kind of just one took me back to where i felt like i belonged yeah um and then it just exposed me to this new world of music that i wanted to get involved in because early on early on in your career when it comes to music you you was part of new brand flex as well i was part of new brand flex i was part of aftershock as well but like new brand flex was so iconic just even just like if you've never like anyone listening like just google new brand flex yeah i think just as an image of like young black boys that felt like you know the way that they dress the way that they look the way that they sounded yeah yeah yeah we're at a time i felt like we were really like locked in on this kind of like hood environment of music yeah i mean we just come from like where you know we we've kind of left garage we've kind of in that grime now we're in that kind of grimish channel u phase where it's the kind of diy generation in a sense of like do you know i mean you put on your snapback you've got a baggy pair of night i remember i went through that phase where i was where i was wearing tracksuit bottoms and then the jeans over it do you remember that thing yeah just the tracksuit balls poking out of the top like this yeah saggy jeans yeah but i was wearing extra large and even the brands you know i mean wearing like academics yeah because i think we were still trying to find ourselves because we were still locked into what was happening in America in terms of, I feel like fashion wise.

13:35Mo Gilligan: Yeah. But we still had this UK part of us that would wear these big baggy trousers with Air Max 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. But then also you have to remember like a lot of the new brand flex guys are like from a similar area to where I was from. So that's the bit I missed out. Once obviously I heard the tapes and then I started MCing. Then now I'm in the area looking for MCs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. see with yeah so obviously youth clubs etc then there was a little pirate radio station but nothing as significant as like a rinse or deja vu but that's when i then bumped into the saskillers the little peas the boy of these yeah and if initially there was no new brand flex how new brand flex was formed at the time every all of all of the biggest mcs apart from so solid were coming from East London.

14:25Yeah, yeah, yeah. East London had a stronghold on them. So Kano, Wiley, Dizzy, Tinchy, like the league, yeah, the league was all in East London. And then I remember just thinking logically, like we need to be in East London. Like we need to almost like base ourselves from East London. So in Woolwich, there's a little tunnel that goes through, like basically goes under the water. And once you come out of it, you're in East 16, you're in Silvertown. So we just used to tell people that we were from Silvertown. yeah because technically it was it was very close um and then one day there was a there was a dj called richie montana i'm still very close with him now we still work together we've been working together for 15 years um and he put an advert out on a pirate radio station saying we're a dj collective new brand flex we're looking for mcs cool submit like your music so then i remember saskiller being like this is the opportunity we've been saying we're east from east london for the longest this is the time to finally consolidate that so we all went down i think they liked us so before you know it now new brand flex has formed and then going back to what you're saying about channel you and all of that stuff you have to remember in our area there was still a lot of white working class boys so even though we had the influence of america and all of the stuff that they were wearing and then our own black british identity we were also leaning into the white

15:46Mo Gilligan: working class British identity which is huge yeah man that's mass England so these boys were wearing like Lylan Scott tops and Henry Lloyd yeah very like football kind of like hooligan sort of but smart football hooligan so I remember like my fashion at the time was almost like a melting pot of the of all of those three things and maybe that's why when you saw new brand flex you were like rah these guys look different also another thing to add is that as I've kind of started to understand life more i've realized that the the journey of the black person especially of an african black person is really a phenomenal thing it's something that there needs to be 20 documentaries made on it because you still have people that are emigrating over from africa now yeah even ireland at the moment has a huge nigerian population massive and what i've started to realize is you you get in how you can get in you come through how you can come through if you're lucky to find yourself in london that's amazing and looking back at peckham i don't know what your reality was like but for me it was lots of africans who were living in council housing and then by the time i'd got to woolwich and plumpstead so sass and boy i hope i'm not speaking for all of them but we were like the black boys who our parents had then taken us one degree away from that if that makes sense so we'd we'd kind of upgraded from the council housing into our own property yeah so we maybe had a back garden we maybe lived on the street where it was like terrace houses etc etc so then everyone's still struggling you're still one degree away from like where you started you still got cousins that are like in the ends and this and that and that but you're seeing a sort of different world do you get me because now you're hearing your white mate saying oh yeah me and the family were going tenerife yeah you know for the summer you're like tenerife flat what so yeah it definitely made us a little bit not different but yeah we were yeah yeah let's just say different it definitely made us a little bit different and that's probably why you why when you saw why free rhythm video or why when you saw gash by the hour we came across the way that we did um and then also channel you that was just an incredible time because obviously we'd gone from pirate radio as well that felt like it would it would accept people in because mtv mtv bass back then was it felt like that's where you wanted to get to be yeah yeah but it was like you know you had to it had to look a certain way it had to be a certain way and i always felt like we were always competing with americans on base yeah yeah yeah you like our video would always be the slightly cheaper looking video that would get rotated maybe once or twice when 50 cents being played 25 times in a day do you get me beats rhymes and life exactly that's it that's it and Big up Trevor Nelson for his thing on there as well.

18:34But yeah, so basically, by the time we got to Channel U, like you said, low barrier to entry. All you had to do is pay like a couple hundred pound, shoot your video for however much, and then all of a sudden, you're going from pirate radio station where no one knew what anyone looked like. The first time I heard Dizzy, Wiley, Tinchy, Kano, I didn't have a clue what they looked like. This was an opportunity now to present yourself fully, artistically, creatively. And so yeah, it changed the game.

19:02Mo Gilligan: Why Fee Ridden When you made that This was also At a time where I feel like If I go back to Even Where I was At that time We're talking MSN Yeah Bebo Yeah Myspace They were the They were the social media platforms Yeah People sharing music On their phones Sony Ericsson's And you'd share a song With This is early Bluetooth As well Do you know what I mean Or if you had a really old phone It might be Infrared infrared as well come on we got the infrared gang it was really I think the start of the back of the bus generation when it came to to phones because there's always been a generation that you know the cool kids we're all on but like there it became a part of like when I think of growing up it was like yeah like after school we sat on the back of the bus with my friends yeah yeah yeah chicken and chips music yeah yeah scratching on the windows yeah yeah with that little thing yeah yeah but I feel like you shaped a huge generation in that with waifu rhythm because it was yeah it was at a time where the music was hard do you know what I mean very hard yeah like it was it was like man don't come to my life don't come to my life yeah yeah yeah and then like to hear someone talk about Rala Rala I really I really like this girl it was like it was like because like I think at the time and we're like similar age as well yeah yeah so it felt like Rala yeah is that what he said yeah yeah I'm kidding Rala yeah yeah man might get her a flower in it.

20:32Mo Gilligan: I don't want to. I don't want to. But you made it cool to like, because there was the phrase sweet boy at the time. Yeah, of course, of course, of course. But you made it cool to be a sweet boy. No, thank you, bro. Do you know what I mean? Thank you, brother. When it comes to getting the borders in the hair and stuff. Yeah, yeah, go for it, man. Why not? Yeah, like it felt like, yeah, bro, I'm like, I'm going to take this girl Nando's. Yeah, why not? Of course. When there was only Nando's in Campbellwell. At the time, that one was banging at the top. Top of the hill, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the Nandos, man.

21:03Mo Gilligan: So like, because I know when you made Wifey Rhythm, you said that cost you£800 or something like that. £800, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, man, he's done his research, amazing. But did you know that that song would be what it was at the time? Because I felt like, I don't know, like at that time when everything was so hard and it was bang man in the jaw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll smash your brain. Yeah. Did you, did it ever feel like that was, what's the word I'm looking for? did it ever feel like that was a risk good question so at the time remember i was putting out loads of rhythms and this is even my approach to like making music now i've stepped back into the arena of making music and this is my approach now exactly the same as it was then i was making loads of rhythms already i was in new brand flex like you said so we were doing sets i was in aftershock we were doing sets i was making loads of rhythms with terror danger rest in peace and And Aftershock was...

21:55Aftershock was booming. Big up Bruiser. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Exactly. So I remember I was getting loads of beats sent in via MSN. So all my contact lists, I had Bear Producers on there. And then Flukes sent me the Wifey Rhythm Beat. And you have to remember, at the time, in the UK, the music was very hard. And then in America, the music was very hard. But there was also this fraction of the Fabulouses and guys like that who would make the song with Tamiya, I'm So Into You, Rhythm. do you get what I mean or fat joe what's love or so I was listening to all of that and then I'm to contextualize it further I'm the eldest and then I've got two younger sisters and then a younger brother and my two younger sisters at the time all I'm hearing in my house is r &b like r &b or pop straight pop so again all of that definitely must have influenced me and music is a feeling right

22:48Mo Gilligan: so I remember when I heard the wifey instrumental I was just like I remember I was sitting in my mom and dad's house and i was in the room where the computer was just on my msn as soon as i downloaded that beat i was like this is amazing i played it like 50 times and then after i was like damn okay what am i going to talk about then again being inspired by all these fabulous type records i was like i think i could do something nice on this one um did it feel like a risk nah people were already calling me a sweet boy anyway okay so in that environment that very like sort of a grime sort of I'm gonna tell you about all the stuff I've done in my life and why I'm the baddest guy on the road in that whole sphere I would definitely say especially within my batch people would have said okay that's the sweet boy do you get what I mean so imagine if it was like a boy band because a crew is not really that different to a boy band other than the fact that the boy band is more often than not manufactured I was always you know the gallus the sweet boy the this that so after a while just kind of leaned into it bro like it was my truth like yeah yeah like i'm not saying anything that because i've always been one of those people like that will read into people's lyrics like what's he saying he don't do that that's not real so this was something that i could honestly talk about and i felt like it was i'm saying this in hindsight but i felt like it was a very sophisticated and mature thing to do musically at the time because like you said most people weren't really doing it and then like i always just again once i heard all the pirate radio artists and then i saw like all the music videos on channel you i was like this is anyone's game now literally anyone could put out a song and then that could be they could become the biggest star tomorrow so for example aggro santos at one stage that i got a free yard man yeah that was everywhere mr wong all these different kind of people so i'm like okay if i just come correct on this i could do something good so had the song and then remember before i've even shot the video to the song like you were saying through msn through bluetooth it's already ringing off so i already know in my area okay of all the songs i've made this is the one that people like so had the confidence shot the video and then the rest is history i think it was like number one on channel you for like 10 weeks or something like that that's when i started doing my pas i was only 16 at the time so i went from sweet boy to this guy's a gallus he's got all the girls in the ends bro it was ridiculous ridiculous so so yeah so then after that 10 weeks at channel um number one on channel u then i started gigging so now i'm leaving london i'm going to like luton and burryst edmunds all these kind of just outskirts of london towns doing shows under 18 raves dj ironic at the time as well and yeah what a great time in life it was amazing i feel like when it comes to music you can see when someone's going to be a star because I think there's always when you see someone kind of break out from what the norm is yeah and I remember seeing you do a PA I don't even know if you remember this this was in Peckham it's now Harris Academy it used to be called Warwick Park yeah I remember that seeing your reaction then this is before Pass Out as well because there's that thing that we all have of like when you're successful you have that hood fame yeah which is before like the fame comes, if that makes sense.

26:12Mo Gilligan: And I remember seeing you there and I was like, oh, bro, this guy's big, man. Yeah, bro. Everyone was screaming. It was mad. Like, how did that feel? Because it must be also, you know, the one thing with hood fame is there's the one thing of like where you're from, people are like, oh, yeah, man, like what are you saying, tiny, bro? Love what you're doing. and that feels so sentimental. To this day, you know, a man will stop you halfway through, you know, delivering for, I don't know. I always like the guys, the delivery drivers. Yeah, the DPD guys. Yeah. Pick them up. Hey, my brother, listen, love what you're doing.

26:48Mo Gilligan: respect my guy. Listen, I've been from Dave, and all. If you could ascend, take a picture. Of course. But like, when you're young as well, how was that? Because I feel like that can also go to your head when you're young as well. Yeah, if anything, I would say, was the opposite like i think i'd worked so hard for this and i was like throughout my career even like you said now rt you know certain things people don't really acknowledge that's been my career the whole time bro trust me so i've already been getting not berated but like kind of like overlooked is probably the best word yeah do you think so well then let me say then let me say then so i've already been getting overlooked overlooked overlook oh yeah you know like the last person to picking the football team i was kind of like that guy yeah we'll take him we'll take him don't worry okay i'm just standing there like this yeah so by the time wifey comes there's a few things that's going through my mind one of them is definitely not to start inflating my ego the one of the first things is brother you've worked so hard for this yeah like you always believed it was going to happen but no one else ever believed yeah probably similar to you like being a comedian yeah man because again you're stepping out and you're really putting yourself out there in a way like There's lots of guys that make music.

28:03There's lots of guys that are funny. But how many guys actually have the confidence to put themselves through all the, nah, man, you're rubbish. Or nah, that's not going to go nowhere. So this is what I've been hearing my whole career. So first thing was like, rah, you've actually done it. Like you've proved yourself right and you've proved everyone wrong. The second thing was, if you can have this hood fame, imagine what else is out there. like you've been watching 50 cent and eminem and then man like there's more to do do you get what i'm saying and i guess because i'm the eldest of my family i've always wanted to set a good example for my younger siblings and i've always wanted to like yeah just be the best version i could be and then maybe being from an african family that's working class i've always felt there will come a time when i need to start supporting my parents to like help out the whole family so if anything i was just motivated i was um i was excited and it was like a positive reinforcement yeah yeah And then I would say, if anything, in the actual ends, I was probably a little, I was like, I still am to this day, you know, people say, but I was very, very humble, bro.

29:10Very like, even maybe too humble, like humble to a fault. I'd always be putting myself down. Nah, you're this. Nah, nah, nah, nah. Not me, not me, not me. Because one, I knew that at any stage, I could just not make another hit. And then those same people saying whatever they're saying, but that's that one hit wonder you and you know we've you know in our community there's like i didn't realize this until quite recently but bro even before myself before dizzy rascal before so solid crew there's been black artists like again like conan's dad for example yeah that have made records and those records have gone into the uk charts and then they've had success they've toured but it's like the history always kind of gets washed so so we don't acknowledge them but i guess as as i was at that stage i started to realize that rah there's been bad people before me that have come and done this maybe had one or two records and now i'll just be in halston at one barbecue and then i'll just see uncle just coming down the stairs but he used to be a big star yeah so i was like i need to take this as far as i can possibly take it this is just

30:15Mo Gilligan: the start of what i'm trying to do do you also feel like because you released your your mixtape put economics um that's around about 2007 right yeah 2007 yeah do you also felt what helped you is that because i've always felt like you had an underground buzz but i just felt like at that time because grime was really at its forefront do you ever feel like sometimes because you didn't have the he's the one to watch yeah keep your eye on him he's gonna be the one yeah do you think that sometimes helps you in a sense of it just let you crack on and just do music in some ways it helped me to crack on and do music and i think it always helped it helped me to uh want to go harder because i always i heard this saying as well people are going to say what they want to say but just don't let it be so do you get me so they can say whatever they want to say about you just don't let it be so so when people are saying oh he's not the guy or i'd rather this guy again going back to that analogy of like the last person being put picked for the football team all it made me want to do was be a better player all it made me want to do was score more goals to prove that i was worthy of the whole thing and i would say the fact that i would say the fact that i wasn't seen as that the person like the one to watch has definitely attributed to the longevity of my career because that mindset has kind of just stuck with me like bro like you know you know what the mindset is out there like you just gotta keep going brother even when pass out dropped yeah biggest song of the no keep going next one next one it needs to be undeniable it needs to be like when you see my stat sheet yeah you're just like you're a hater bro like how this guy is phenomenal do you get me so i i would i would say if anything being overlooked at the time definitely just motivated me more made me want to go harder and it's definitely attributed to why i'm still here today and i know you do a lot of different type of shows that wasn't your norm of just pulling up to the grime event yeah you were really like doing different types of events at different effect like festivals and stuff yeah time where you i think now it's different with social media because now with social media you see it and then you can believe it yeah yeah you know whereas back then we just didn't know what yeah it's like a different world i didn't know what the festival was yeah And I think when you think of a festival, even back then, I remember this of doing a festival of latitude, which is like a comedy festival.

32:46Mo Gilligan: I'm like, cool, I'm doing latitude, but there's a big comedy tent, thousands of people in there. First time I'm doing it, I'm doing a small tent next to it. You might get a hundred people. Yeah, if you're lucky. If you're lucky. But people, I think, you know, when you tell people, oh, wow, you're doing this thing, man. You're like, yeah. And then you get there and you're like, oh, okay. There's 20 people in this tent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you still, you're like, well, cool. This is, you know, it gives you something to aspire to. Yeah, something, bro. So they want to do the tent next door.

33:13Mo Gilligan: So you brought out your Hood Economics in 2007. You've got this underground buzz. And then you kind of link up with your cousin, Dooney. Yes. And I've heard you say like he's a, you know, he's your older cousin, but he's almost like a big brother figure. I think he is to a lot of us. Because there's times I've been at events. I was at the GQ event for the first time in like when I went in like 2019 yeah and you know sometimes you go to these events and you're first starting out and they're like yeah sorry you're getting one ticket yeah and you're like can I just bring someone yeah yeah come on man they said one ticket so I went by myself that's what happened to me remember when I saw you in the palace and you was with you was with Mumsy you were with Mumsy but I was one up looking crazy I said what I said Mo did you get a plus one you were like yeah brother obviously Everyone got a plus one.

34:06I was like, bro, they told me just to come by myself, man. It happens, bruv. This is just the other day, mate. I was looking at your mumsy looking so lovely. I was like, what, you don't think my mum would have liked to be here as well?

34:27It happens, bruv. It happens.

34:28Mo Gilligan: Oh, man. Is that your first time going to the Palace? No, no, no. You've been before, innit? Yeah, and I had a plus one the last time. I was about to say, no way. Oh, man. Hold on, let me just reset. Sorry, man. That hit my chest, bro. Dumi's always been like, you know, for you, he's your cousin, but he's your bigger brother. He's someone that massively looks out for people. And I know in terms of when you went through that phase of signing a record deal and stuff. He was very influential to that as well. How important was it having someone alongside you? Because I feel like when it comes to anyone's success, there's always someone in the background who doesn't want the applaudits.

35:21Mo Gilligan: And I feel like Dumi is, that's not Dumi. He's just like, yeah, like, he probably was like, yeah, man, do your thing. So how important was that for you early on in your career? I'd say early on in my career, it was it was integral like um i feel being the eldest i'd always looked for that bigger brother obviously i always had to be the responsible one i always had to be the one setting a good example so when dumi came into my life like we met at like uh we met like a big nigerian party so we're cousins but essentially we're from the same nigerian town so when you're from the same town it's pretty a pretty small town as well a place called the sabah you're basically cousins you know i mean so i've met this i met this guy my i think my mom introduced me to him she was like oh you know uh come and meet your older cousin do me like i've told him you're doing music he's seen wifey rhythm and so for me it was just refreshing it was like how can i explain it it was like okay wow finally i've got a big bro he's on what i'm on he believes in what i'm doing and he's in a position where he could add a lot of value and he could help me and so for the start of my career even for the next couple of years after that i would say it was integral because again when i dropped pass out bro my life changed entirely so yeah yeah it's your my life went from you know how i was living to just stratospheric like ridiculous then the next year i'm in america I'm doing all the American runs and it's pretty lonely do you get what I mean and I feel like having someone that was around who you know has come from where I'm from where we have all the same like sort of cultural practices and understandings he can get on the phone and talk to my mum and reassure her bro that was that was everything and then also you know when just like the analogy of when I saw you at the palace okay I'm going to this GQ Awards I've got my suit no one else here is like me there's all this actress from America, this person, this person, I'm this one guy from South East London.

37:27Like, I need someone to be there with me so that we're witnessing this and experiencing this together. We're able to talk about how amazing it is, one, and laugh and joke about certain things as well because, you know, let's just be real, a lot of that stuff is amazing but some of it is very superficial and it just is what it is.

37:45Mo Gilligan: Sometimes you're eating food like, what's this, man? Exactly. And I feel like it was so helpful to be around someone who was able to make light of the whole thing. Like we're just us and this is happening to us. And some of it is amazing. Some of it is quite strange, but this is just amazing. I feel like if I was by myself, it wouldn't have been the same. You were really good at documenting your early career because you used to do your vlogs on YouTube where, you know, it'd just be simple things of you just buying trainers. Bro, I've been a content creator, bro. Thank you. but I feel like I'm getting my flowers now because bro when I was content creating who was content creating back then?

38:26Mo Gilligan: Yeah like you just like you'd have your vlogs where you'd go and buy trainers and stuff and you'd also you kept those on YouTube for quite a long time as well Yeah they're still on YouTube now a lot of them Yeah and there's also a part of you where you know when it came to Pass Out when that dropped I felt like we knew your life had changed from from us lot being again on the outside looking in where you're seeing this track play everyone i feel like everyone who's listened to that track and knows the track we all remember where we were or whether there was a time where we've been out in a club which also hit at such a pivotal time where like so many of us were either just finished going to uni and now we're going to our own little small kind of events that felt like they were really representing us.

39:20Mo Gilligan: I'm talking ACS events as well. People putting on their own shows in East Central and stuff. And it felt like a pivotal time which felt like yeah man, I feel like this guy is I feel like, yes we felt like we knew you but it was like seeing you know even small things of seeing you on like a Graham Norton and And, you know, I think the first time you was on there, you were speaking about your watch. You had like a gold Rolex. Yeah, gold, yeah, Rolex. And you was like, yeah, man, I just got this watch, man. And seeing you on the couch and it was just like, bruh, man, this guy's really enjoying the success.

40:02Mo Gilligan: Really enjoying the fruits of his labour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just felt like so aspirational because, I don't know, it was just like some of those small things that, those shiny things that we grew up always wanting, you know, because didn't you have a Mercedes as well? Yeah. What was it? Was it a compressor? Yeah, I rapped about a CLC compressor, but I didn't actually have one. The first proper Mercedes I bought was an E350. Ah, yes. Coop. Coop, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it was just like nice for a lot of us seeing it because seeing the success off the back of music and then seeing you in spaces that felt like, oh, bro, this guy's the same age as me, but also he's really enjoying the fruits of his labour.

40:53Mo Gilligan: It just felt so inspiring. But also the way you was able to, like, Nike blazers. That was you, bruv. Thank you, bruv. Like, wearing Nike blazers with the camo trousers and that. Come on, my brother. Come on. Listen. Wow. Like, you even had your own pair as well, didn't you? Yeah, with Nike. Pick up Nike, man. Yeah, man. They flew us out to Portland to make our own pair. Incredible, bro. How was those moments? Because, you know, I know you talk about those musical moments, but, like, you know, and there are people that had their collaborations. I know Dizzy Rascal had a collab with Nike with the hair max.

41:27Mo Gilligan: Yeah, he did, yeah. The tongue-in-cheek and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sencha's done one now. Yes, yeah, yeah. But I feel like, you know, you was making young black boys from the ends wear Nike blazers and leather jackets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amanda said, I'm going top, man. I'm buying that leather jacket, bruv. Like, I feel like there's a lot of accolades you have from your music, but in terms of the way you started shaping the generation. Yeah, culturally, yeah. In that time, how much do you feel like you really remember? Because, you know, you're going out to Nike and, you know, you're doing things that we had seen before, but also like, we're like, oh, wow, I've never seen it.

42:10Mo Gilligan: Yeah, for a British, like, black, South East London boy to be doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. So there was a couple of things going through my mind. I think when you used to see, like, when you would see me on, like, a Graham Norton or whatever, and big up Graham Norton, thank you for all the support, bro. Like, people have to remember that, like, we hadn't, not we, because I'm not speaking for everyone, but in my opinion, we hadn't really had a representative from our world on that platform with the likes of, I don't know, what big actor would have been on the seat at the time, Judi Dench or this person or that person or that person.

42:48And so there was always a pressure because, again, coming from like a Nigerian family, my whole thing was like, you're not going to reinforce any negative stereotypes. Remember, I'm coming from a Nigerian family and I'm also the eldest. So even though I went to a very regular school, I've had no, you know what they call it, what acting training or thingy training or elocution lessons i've never had anything like that as nigerians especially ibo people like we've always been proud people and we've always been people that will carry ourself in the highest way so i think when i'm doing all these things it looks like i'm enjoying myself and to a certain degree i am because there's a surrealism there that's like wow like how did i get here i'm on the couch the lights are on there's an audience mum's in the crowd I got a plus one for that do you get what I'm saying so this is crazy but then at the same time I'm like if I put one foot wrong I feel like I'm letting down the whole side of course do you get what I'm saying so this is not just for me this is for everyone and this is also and I don't want to get too deep but also when I started entering those worlds I realised that there was a very clear stereotype and those stereotypes would be expressed but in very sort of passive underhanded ways so you know oh my goodness you you talk amazingly yeah i mean wow look at the way you talk or like wow look at the way you dress like look at the way you smell like things things like that which i guess should just be common like and simple just for any human being for me in particular it was always like the person on the other end was surprised like i thought i was going to see you in a completely different way but wow i'm actually surprised and that always used to irk me because again being from Nigeria bro there's Nigerian billionaires there's Nigerian ice cream men there's Nigerian lawyers Nigerian doctors Nigerian school teachers everyone's Nigerian innit so Nigerian restaurant owners so this whole idea of this I guess like you said maybe black British stereotype of someone who's come from the ends which I have

44:56Mo Gilligan: and for the music you're doing as well yeah and for the music you're doing thank you rapper it always used to irk me and I was like, rah, why do some people perceive us in this way or perceive me? I'm not speaking for everyone. Perceive me in this way. This is something I have to kind of tackle, but I'm not going to tackle it. I'm not going to tackle it in a kind of like, what's the word, short-sighted way. And the way, you know, an analogy of that would be, you know, you get stopped by the police, for example, and then you just jump out of your car. You're in a nice car. You've paid for the car.

45:28You're well within your rights. You have your driving license, insurance. You haven't done anything wrong. and so you jump out of the car almost like accosting the police officer why are you stopping me for is it because of this is it because of that is it we've all been there do you mean and we've all had the uh inclination and the feeling to want to do that but in the environments i was in i just felt like you've got to tackle this another way you've got to tackle this by just being excellent i remember at the time maybe just after jay-z started throwing about that whole term black excellence and this and that and that and i really leaned into it and i was like you know what like one of our guys the guy that led the biafra war um ajuku yeah from uh from nigeria iboga he went to oxford university like his dad was a billionaire this was in the 60s do you know i mean so our lineage our root where we're from we're proud successful entrepreneurial people do you get i mean who you know carry themselves in a way so i just leaned into all of that you're you're a king bro at the very end of at the end of the day carry yourself in that way and then also just try and blaze the trail for others so as much as i was there maybe having a good time drinking a bit of rosé in the dressing room with everyone in my mind i was looking at them thinking you are generations ahead of where we where i even am like regardless of the money i'm getting now i'm one degree away from poverty i've got a cousin somewhere in wherever coventry that needs my help i've got i've got family in nigeria that need my help i'm here sitting and laughing with

47:01Mo Gilligan: you guys but i've got stuff to do you can't get that's generational like i've still got i'm thinking 10 years ahead of where my kid comes and what my kid is going to do and what i'm going to be able to provide the resources for them to flourish and thrive even beyond myself so i just think it's important to mention that like because at the time now it feels very normal you know you You'll see Sench or you'll see Dave or you'll see Stormzy on all the platforms everywhere. Hot 97, this Graham Norton, Jonathan Ross. But at the time, I almost feel like if I didn't do, and I'm not saying this like literally, but if I'd let myself down and then almost quote unquote in my head, let the side down, then a lot of these opportunities may not have been as readily available as they are now.

47:50because all it takes is like one person to spoil the fun for everybody else. And so I was that guy. Sometimes I would also describe it as this, like Jay-Z always used to refer to Kanye and say, oh, you know, Kanye is like the guy who, when there's a war, he'll be the first person to run over the hill, do what he's doing. And he'll get a whole bunch of arrows thrown at him. But at least when he comes back, everyone knows what is waiting for them on the other side. I feel like I was almost that guy.

48:16Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. So like when Pass Out drops, Davies at number one. yeah the track was huge huge did you know it was gonna go number one so when we released it the funny thing is um uh i was signed to this label and pass out was meant to be our specialist track so i had other records that were more like dance leaning but pass out was meant to be like the warm-up track so i remember everyone in the label being like you know what we're gonna seed this out to all the specialist djs even if we don't get a result you know like everyone's giving you the typical label talk we're gonna sign you but it's not about the hits it's not about that it was a similar conversation with pass out so initially as we released it in my mind i was like this is a specialist track it's not even going to go into the top 100 it's just to let people know man can rap and man's from that do you know i mean but i've done it in my own way so then literally you find out whether it's going to be a number one maybe like the midnight before so it comes out on sunday you've got monday tuesday wednesday and then back then you're seen it on iTunes so iTunes is a sort of indicator so you see it's climbing 10 9 8 7 so then I remember at the time the song that we were against was Rihanna rude boy oh yeah so Rihanna is number one yeah or she's trying to get to number one as well that's a track as well man so in my head in my head I'm thinking Riri yeah bad girl Riri there's no way it's impossible but I remember on going on the Sunday chart show Reggie Yates was hosting it at the time that was on Radio One Radio One yeah and I remember the midnight before having the inclination but then also again now everything's different you're basically your own record label you can see everything that's going on you're getting all the data as it comes in back then we didn't have any access to that so they were kind of hinting so the people at the label were like it might be number one you never know one of those kind of ones so I had an inkling that maybe it was going to be number one but then in my mind it was against Rihanna so there's no way so I just remember being on that chart show I think we filmed the content so it should be somewhere on YouTube and then yeah we get down to two three and then number two sorry three two number two is Rihanna Rudeboy so immediately I know he plays it and I'm like number one single in the country life life is life has changed how did it feel like that in your head like yeah life has changed forever I was like this is the biggest song in the country like are you being serious like mental and so like you said before i'd even gone to number one it was already sort of an anthem anyway people are playing it everywhere so that just kind of consolidated what the record was and i think it just changed the landscape of like black british music like moving forward because you had your after party in a tribe yeah tribe called it's just behind carnaby street yeah that was reggie yates's night because that club was quite you know it's like next to um i think it might be like studio valbon or one of those clubs and i remember being in there and i was like oh right i'm i'm in this place that for me at that time this was a big deal big deal yeah of course and you had just got number one and i remember everyone had you in the air like yeah yeah yeah yeah and i remember just sitting back and i was just like i just felt part of it even though i was like it was like a last minute plus one I'd never gone to anything but it was so nice to just see everyone there just see it was very intimate as well it wasn't like a big big thing if I can remember but just being in the back and just being like oh rah this is this is a moment for this man yeah huge moment this is this is it's not it was so nice to see in a way that just felt so wholesome and then after that what it transcended into was was insane like Like when I think of, you know, obviously, then you win a Brit Award in 2011.

52:15Mo Gilligan: Then you bring out your first album, Discovery as well. Colossal, Million Records Sold, baby. How was that time for you? Did it feel like a bit of a blur? Yeah. Because it's almost like that moment where everything you touch turns to gold. You know, like when a record goes from... It was. It was something that I don't think that I had ever really witnessed of seeing. You've got this track and everyone's still playing it. But then you follow it up with, was it Frisky? Frisky, yeah. Yeah. You follow up with Frisky and then it just felt like everything you was touching was turning to gold. Yeah. How do you kind of remember that bubble of that period?

52:59Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are there any times where it feels like a blur and you have to look back at pictures and say, oh raw I don't remember that day yeah so definitely there's so much of it that like it was a blur and so thank god I was documenting all the everything was happening everything that was happening content wise because sometimes I do have to look back at certain things and I'm just like raw like that's me and I was doing that and I was next to this person and this person and this person but going back to the day when we did the party I feel like it was a good moment for me but I feel like it was a good moment for like just black british people in the country i think that's why when you're saying they were lifting me up like that i remember there was loads of people there like tinchy was there there's a few people um and to me it was like a celebration for everyone do you know i mean because it wasn't it wasn't the first number one that had happened by from a black british artist in the uk i think tinchy had already had a number one i think yeah i think maybe even chip chip had had a number one with oopsie daisy yeah maybe i think dizzy as well Dizzy had had a number one.

53:59Mo Gilligan: So it wasn't the first. But I think because of the sort of record it was, it was like us kind of doing things our own way. I know Pass Out now is 15 years old. It's basically a teenager. And so now people will see that as a commercial record because obviously I go to a karaoke bar and you can select Pass Out. Do you get what I mean? So it's now become a very commercial record. But at the time, it was anything but that. Yeah, man. So I remember it almost feeling like a celebration for everyone. almost like a wiping of the brow like wow okay we've kind of made our own thing yeah it's two black brothers on the track to a black man that made the beat as well do you get i mean another black man that's the manager that added the drum and bass bit on the end this is like a black record and it's number one and it has it there's no compromise in the record um so that was a big deal and then like i say to you yeah there was definitely bits of it that felt like a blur but in in in my defense i was in like a fight or flight mode like because i'd seen other people prior like i said it was i wasn't the first person that had a number one so i'd seen people prior get kind of drunk off of the success enjoy the success start thinking that they were jeff bezos or bill gates or whoever and then before you know it they're kind of back where they were so as much as i was in the air i reckon i can't go back to how i was thinking that day but i remember just thinking oh damn like i've what problem have i found myself in now because i have to top this again i have to i can't become that it was that wifey but like times 10 okay now this is actually real this is not just number one in the channel u charts this is number one in the official uk charts i can't be that guy that has a one hit wonder because the same people again sorry to say this but the same people that are lifting me in the air in five years i'll walk past them and I'll hear someone say in the car, that's that, oh yeah, that's that one hit wonder you, remember you had a pass out record.

55:54So I remember,

55:54Mo Gilligan: you really did follow it up though. Yeah, so I was like, do you know what, fight or flight, okay cool, you've got what you'd always dreamt about, now is not the time to stop, this is actually when you start and so I remember bro, constant late night studio, I was trying to do everything, but the way I was getting like, cold sores, grey hairs, I think I even probably got my first grey hair at like 22, I remember being in the airport, yeah, I remember being in the airport, yeah, and I went and I checked in the mirror and I looked at my head and I saw one grey hair and bro, I just came out of the toilet and I just started shouting at dummies.

56:28Mo Gilligan: I don't know why. How's that, bruv, dummies, what's going on? Bruv, am I going to die? Like, what is this? This is too much. Like, huh? I'm 22. That's why in earthquake I say, oh, grey hairs and a little bit of weight loss. I predict riots. I predict... Because that's what was really happening. So I was in fight or flight mode and I was just like, do you know what? Brother, there's no stopping now. It doesn't matter whether you're in Paris today, Stockholm tomorrow, work, work, work and keep recording your rhythm. So even a record like Written in the Stars, which ended up being one of the biggest songs I've ever made, ended up charting like number 11 and the Billboard chart was my first.

57:04Your album went

57:04Mo Gilligan: double platinum as well. Double, triple platinum. Triple platinum. Triple platinum. That's insane, man. Triple platinum. Because there's single success but album success is... Yeah, that's what puts you in the big league. yeah of course one of the biggest selling albums of all time from an artist like myself in the uk do you know i mean so i just remember being like this and then also i remember just giving all the glory to god like immediately removing my ego from the whole equation and again i think that's what's attributed to me being here today there's no way in hell that a young guy from peckham who'd moved to plumpstead has achieved this solely it's down to myself it's down to the team it's down to the artists I've worked with and ultimately I'm giving all of this glory to God because if because I can't explain this like I don't know how to make sense of this and so if God has blessed me I'm going to just keep trying to be the best version of myself I can be keep working hard and hopefully I'll get more blessings yeah and that's what happened so when some of your songs though like you know when a song is successful because a song like written in the stars is like the soundtrack to like Sky Sports and stuff like this yeah ridiculous bro ridiculous like Wrestlemania Wrestlemania like Superbowl yeah yeah yeah like how much of your time do you look back at things like that because you know that's when a song is like really embedded like in culture almost almost forever do you know what I mean yeah yeah definitely to be honest with you I think even now like for example it might be my birthday or something will happen like you know maybe two years ago or whatever i released a song or i featured on a song um called how you samba and it was some dutch guys that made it ended up going number one in europe and i remember everyone being like another number one and in my head i was just like oh okay and then people like well done and i'm just like thanks thanks if you ask anybody that knows me as in like spends like sees me on a regular basis they will they will probably tell you that i'm the i'm the worst at release receiving compliments i'm the worst at receiving like the pat on the back or the praise or something just happens to me and i'm like oh i just get like embarrassed i get shy and i just remember going back to that time oh your thing's on wrestlemania but every sunday i'm hearing your thing premier league everywhere this is a madness in my head i'm just like oh yeah thank you thanks oh cool cool cool cool just thinking about the next thing bro yeah just because again like i said where we've come from is not the same like it's not the same you could be and maybe this is something that sticks with you because i've even heard you know some of our white working class counterparts say the same thing you know when you've when you've come from the ends or you've come from you know like the struggle you're always scared that you're going to go back there so regardless of whatever moment was happening to me i didn't care about the money all i cared about was success and that I continued to have success so it was like nothing but now when I look back on it I'm like rah like what Wrestlemania Superbowl it's like now I'm finally in a mindset and in a place mentally physically spiritually where I can internalize all of these things and appreciate how amazing those opportunities were and I think that that's what's fueling me moving forward because i'm like right i've been very blessed and i've been able to achieve things that were beyond my wildest dreams and that most people to this day even if they're way bigger artists than me have still not been able to achieve so obviously god is with you and you obviously are a talented person you know sometimes you have to look at yourself in the mirror and remind yourself that you're obviously a talented person keep going bro how many monthly listeners have you got on spotify you're just sitting in your house or sitting in your studio watching other amazing artists and emerging artists coming through and getting their big record or doing whatever they're doing you need to get back involved and do your thing i think me taking that time out to reflect have kids look at life start doing normal stuff like the school run and all that kind of stuff and that's where you are now in your middle that's where i'm at now yeah yeah i think it's definitely helped me to like it's given me the fuel to kind of continue to keep going because in your middle now like becoming a you know a dad and you know a family man and doing the school run you know where you've you have a very successful music career you know um but then you also have kind of ventured into television and stuff as well and i feel like you've always been a bit of a serial entrepreneur as well yeah yeah whether collaboration with smart car.

1:01:50Mo Gilligan: That is insane. Bruv, we made the sickest smart car, bro. Bruv, I remember when I went to the LN. It was cold, man. Cold, cold. I was going to buy a smart car a couple of years ago and I was trying to find that smart car. Brother, come on, man. Bruv, like, do you still have one? No, I got rid of it. Really? Yeah, I know it's sentimental, but... Yeah. Yeah, I got rid of it, man. You still feel like you drove it and stuff. Yeah, drove it, enjoyed it. Had a great time. I remember, bro, at the time I was living in Hackney. Okay. So not of all, because obviously Hackney's an incredible place, incredible area, but I had the opportunity at that time to be living anywhere.

1:02:24I could have been living in LA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I found this house, Alexander McQueen's house. Yeah, man. Beautiful. And it still had like the old taxidermy stuff as well, isn't it? Old taxidermy in there. So I was like, I'm copying this house, but it's not gated. It's just frontline on the street, opposite the park. Anyone can run up in here at any point.

1:02:42Mo Gilligan: Yeah. What can I do to sort of like, you know, juxtapose it a little bit? And so the smart car was the juxtaposition. No time for no G-Wagon at the time. No time for no Rolls Royce. No time for anything. Have your smart car. Get on with your life and just live in peace. So that's the time. So now it's a bit bittersweet that I got rid of the car. But now when I think about that car, I just remember good times, bro. Yeah, man. Do you know what I mean? But that's a move, man. Yeah. When it comes to those collabs. but also like am I right in thinking that you know the Nike Air Mags you have the first release pair don't you yeah yeah you got them signed by Michael J Fox yeah the first ever pair released yeah it's in my toilet in my house really yeah what in a case in a case oh okay because I'm thinking in the corner yeah when I got it they give you this nice like box you know how big is your toilet massive really yeah yeah the one on the ground floor is massive it's bigger than this room bro really yeah That must be a flex when people go to the bar.

1:03:41It's got artwork in there. It's like a...

1:03:44Mo Gilligan: Is it? Crazy, bro, yeah. That's cold. I've got my bath certificate in my downstairs toilet. Nice. That's my one flex where... Yeah, you have to put something in the toilet, bro. Yeah, when builders come in and that, because I never do it in my name, innit? Yeah. So they come in and then they go, oh, excuse me, you're my kid again. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah, man. I am, you know. I've seen your certificate in there, man. But I mean, like some of those moves, you know, collaborations with Nike and, you know, your entrepreneurial stuff is sensational, man. Like, and again, like you, you have these, like where, even where you are now in the middle of your career, where you've had a successful career, you know, being part of the British Fashion Council.

1:04:28Mo Gilligan: I didn't even know what that was. Like that is, like a lot of us didn't even know what that even was back then. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then you kind of move into television as well. You know, and you're fronting TV shows as well. And I feel like it's really testament to what you are as an artist of always wanting more, but levelling up in a way that was like really aspiring, but also to show like people within your field as musicians. It's like, there's so much more than being in the studio. We can be on the screen and host a television show about properties. Of course. How are you enjoying this part in the middle of your career now?

1:05:06Do you know, I'm absolutely loving it. And one bit of advice I'd give to emerging artists or even anyone that's an artist that's doing their thing now or anyone that's in any form of entertainment. One of my biggest secrets, bro, is I just said yes to everything, brother. Do you get what I mean? Especially at the early stage of my career. Just say yes. As long as it's not compromising your integrity as a human being, say yes. Because you just never know. like and i've come across too many artists and creatives that and i fall into this sometimes as well that become creatures of habit so once you've had success as a musician your routine is pretty much you know studio maybe you might do a bit of gym you see your friends you see your family but that's your kind of daily life i've met a lot of artists and like i said i fall into this sometimes where you don't even want to leave that you don't want to break out of that go to mercedes to work with who like recently i did i designed a pram i had kids yes yeah yeah yeah black and gold right black and black and a bit of uh was it i put rose gold was it green yeah so black and green that was rose gold or blushed brushed aluminium on the like okay yes yeah yeah yeah yeah i see that did that with silver cross big up silver cross one of the oldest nursery makers in the world.

1:06:28They made like prams for Queen Victoria and all that stuff back in the day. And I remember being a dad and I was like, how do I celebrate being a dad? And so we designed this pram. It took us two years. Then they ended up putting it in Harrods. It did really well. And I remember loads of people messaging me being like, a pram? Brother, this is random. But in my head, I'm like, you don't even understand, one, the network that I'm building. Yeah. You don't understand, bro. The amount of people I know. I feel like people said that before

1:06:57Mo Gilligan: when you was doing the fashion stuff. Exactly. They questioned it. Exactly. And now I've started to like that. Like when people don't understand, oh, that's when I get my frill. Like, okay, you wait and see. But the network that I've built through all these various collaborations from Nike to Mercedes to Silver Cross, bro, I can pick up anyone in pretty much, I can pick up the phone and call anyone in pretty much any industry and be like, yo, it's tea. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I want to do that. so i think for me uh venturing into all of these things again was okay i have this talent imagine what it could be like if i was across all these other things i have other passions the tv i'm very much into property i've built a lovely property portfolio let me talk about that let me flex might not be to the same audience but if i start rapping about my houses in music i don't think that's going to sit well so here's another platform to talk about it art got an amazing art collection my missus as well she's an artist she also has an incredible collection i understand art let's talk about art you get i mean and then whoever's seeing it because it's not not everything is for everyone even my music no one's forcing you to like it or to listen to it the people that do i really appreciate you thank you very much but i guess i got to a point in my mind where i was you're a creator, so you just must create.

1:08:17You have to kind of do what you're doing. And then also, there was a part of it that's like, you need to do this. And even if you don't get the best reaction, at least that 16-year-old you that's looking at you thinking, rah, T, because everything you've said to me, bro, I wasn't aware that you were there and you were seeing things from that perspective or that when you was at the Sunday show, you were playing the records. I wasn't aware of any of that. So I'm always thinking about the next guy who's going to be the next version of Mo Gilligan, the next version of tiny temper do all the things that are in your mind get all the ideas out so that they can see it and then whether they want to say okay cool i really rate the smart car but i hated the pram yeah man but i liked pass out but i didn't like written in the stars you refine it and then you fly a bit greater than us because again one of my main motivations is to empower are people that look like me provide resources in in any way that i can and obviously encourage other people who have become fortunate to do the same yeah um provide infrastructure and to prepare them i which is why i'm talking about contracts and agreements and stuff like that because there needs to be a next mo gilligan bro do you get i mean when you get to a certain stage just like kevin hart there needs to be a new guy that's coming through that looks like you that studied you that you can put your hand on do i mean the same way dave chappelle will come to kevin hart and put his hand on him or hand over the blueprint yeah yeah man yeah we need that for our economy for our world like we need to keep doing that so um stepping into all of those spaces it's very authentic i always do i say yes to everything but it has to be something that i'm passionate about and i can't really it can't affect my integrity as a person i can't go to bed at night thinking, right, I just did that for a check.

1:10:04Like, that's mad. Like, I'm going to regret that. Yeah, man.

1:10:08Mo Gilligan: Your end, when you think of, you know, the latter part of your life and how you want to start shaping it, you know, you've done so much in a short space of time. As much as there's the Brits and the Mobos, Ivor Novellos are just, like, not everyone gets them. No, I hear that. I hear that. That's a big boy one. Not everyone gets those ones, man. Yeah. So like, and then you step into television and, you know, having your own product, your own record label. What does the next chapter look like? Again, I've ticked off a lot of stuff, even just settling down and having kids. That was always a very important thing.

1:10:48I'm very private on social media, but I think people are aware of kind of where I'm at in my life or the people that are interested are aware of where I'm at in my life. and I also feel like that was an important thing to show people from where I'd come from do you get I mean because I could be running around doing god knows what do you get me but for my stability for my mindset for something to even work harder for I felt like that was a very important thing in my life so doing that now I'm in a place where I'm looking at things like economically and I'm looking at our economy post-Covid and I'm thinking about the music industry specifically and I'm seeing that like loads of nightclubs and music venues, we're losing them.

1:11:32Yeah. So we're losing like three a month, which is insane. Yeah. And they're saying that by 2029, we're not going to have any music venues. Yeah. Or hardly any in the UK. And for me, it kind of reminds me of when we were losing our youth clubs. Right. and and i'm just like okay cool this is a space where young people could congregate regardless of their race their sex do you mean their sexual orientation and they could just be together as a community sort of like what we were talking about in peckham that has kind of been lost and so i was like if this happens for you know we're already you know streaming wise people are already unhappy about you know you know what they're getting remunerated versus a stream we've all seen the snoop dogg thing you know i got a billion streams why ain't i got like at least a million dollars like do you get i mean it's it's a crazy time and i feel like um i felt compelled to kind of like

1:12:30Mo Gilligan: address it in some way you're talking about music so and the people have been asking i see the comments yeah bro on your socials yeah so is there new music to come now because you're saying that you know you're you're gonna essentially it sounds like you're saying you're gonna bring the nightclub scene back yeah working with a lot of genres and stuff so when can the people expect new music from tiny temper got a new track called eat it up and it's with a producer called skeptics what a g uh killing it in the whole drum and bass scene um and yeah basically like it's it's an it's a sum of experiences from all of the nightlife that i've ever experienced and kind of like just highlighting how amazing it is like people need to remember that like you know even talking to some friends who are on this dating app thing like yeah man i met this thing on the dating app man swipe right and then i linked it and it was rare like i've just go to a club bruv like what are you talking about just go to a club and just be in the mix of people and feel the energy and experience all the nuances like sometimes i'll see content how to talk to a girl how to talk to a guy how to and I'm just thinking rah like is this where we're at in our society do you get what I mean whereas the nightclub you had all your experiences that's when you first realise oh damn I gotta put I gotta put deodorant on because I've been here all night and now man's beefing bro listen when you go in those toilets yeah bro everyone's had that experience that two pound can go a long way brother can go a long way or rah like this is how to chat to this ting and rah rah even amongst the noise or I'm with my friends and they just played our biggest song and this is a memory and let's all take the pictures and now you look back at it everyone's looking suave and so eat it up is basically a sum of experiences and it's also just me saying alongside sceptics also like we have the biggest sound bro when we drop our thing the sound is big the sound is undeniable like you know like a sound system like when we plug our thing in it's a it's a wrap it's game over for everyone else so that's what eat up is and there's so much more to come from where that came from i've said to myself now that i'm releasing music I've taken a long enough break done the kids done changed all the nappies that I need to change done all the bottle feeds like when I step back into this music space the same vim that you were talking about like then you did this then you did that bro people are gonna see a different beast bro like I'm not stopping bro I'm not stopping so so new album is that on the horizon?

1:14:52Mo Gilligan: yeah I mean I've been working I've got more than enough records for a new album but if the people want it they'll definitely get it but yeah my first single in a very very long time E It Up is out now so go E It Up Go ahead and enjoy it, man. Oh, Tiny Man. This has been so overdue, man. I've been trying to get you on this pod for ages, man. But I'm happy I'm here, man. Honestly, your journey is so inspiring in so many ways. I think you've really given a voice to a lot of us in the UK that you'd done moves that none of us had seen and you made things possible that now is very, very normal. you know seeing you at you know in your 20s go to Wimbledon you know in a double-breasted suit just felt like oh like I'd only ever see maybe like a Hollywood star go there but now I'd see everyone go there to Wimbledon do you know I mean first time I went there I seen you there yeah do you know what I mean but but I have to say the same thing to you as well bro like what you've done you're a trailblazer as well and I know I appreciate all the props and the flowers but similar to you bro what you've done you stepped into an arena and a space that was virtually kind of untapped there's loads of people that you know growing up before they have the potential to be able to do that but as a southeast londoner taking our kind of and i if anything i'm saying is wrong please correct me but like taking our archetype of like what a black man from southeast london is their perspective the way they see things the way that they think the way that they talk bro you've brought that to a global audience like that's bro that's phenomenal do you got i mean i had to do that with music with sound like beats okay i don't really understand what he's saying man but like this beats fire like that's my journey bro your journey is i've used my words yeah silence pure silence i'm talking i'm talking in my southeast london way talking about all my experiences I've had in South East London or London and the world is receiving it in a huge way and I remember I came to see one of your O2s I think you've done like 20 O2s or something by now I think it might be the first one you come to did I come to the first one I think so because I came to your very first show but I don't know which O2 you came to the one at Clapham Grand I remember that one yeah yeah yeah and then I think you might have come to the first one during lockdown yeah yes yeah yeah yeah I remember you came to that one yeah man yeah so I remember being there and just being like brother what this guy's done there's a whole arena it's filled out most people like look like me in this arena and you're just talking the talks like not just but you're talking the talks you're saying all the stuff that we relate to all the stuff that we understand bro that is phenomenal and then i'll even go as far as to say your content you've definitely blazed the trail now for me on my algorithm it's normal to see another iteration of a motor comedian do you get me in our yeah I was going through doing this thing today and then it's got a funny punchline at the end or whatever whatever I think if you never stepped into the space that you did confidently with Vim I wouldn't be seeing as much as that as much as that of that sorry as I do now so bro flowers to you bro amazing flowers upon flowers tiny man I have to thank you for you booked me for at that time my biggest show ever which was at Yashwaya disturbing London you're the only me and Michael Dapper I shouldn't say that I shouldn't say that but you're yeah thank you for saying thanks yeah bro I have to thank you for that I had the time of my life so but honestly it's been a pleasure Tiny every time brother and this has been your beginning middle and ends thank you very much my brother thank you very much appreciate it bro hey what's up thank you so much for listening to the podcast today now a lot goes in to making each episode I know you hear my voice but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it and if you did enjoy it I'd really really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars and if you also have the time please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace